The Big Gig | "Moonshadow" (S1E18) with special guest Sam Trammell
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On today's episode of That Was Us, we'll be discussing season one, episode 18, Moonshadow. The season one finale. A twist of fate stops a young Jack from going down the dark path and introduces him to his future wife. Randall, Kate, and Kevin make big decisions about their futures.

Welcome to the show, the end of season one of This Is Us and the end of season one... - Of That Was Us. - Of That Was Us. We're getting pretty close anyways. We really are. Guys, can you believe we're already at the end of season one? - It went fast. - 18 episodes. It went very fast. I see how people can binge because once you kind of get in, you're like, "Oh." What comes next? It's good. I want to see what happens next. Maybe now's a good time to, while we close out the season of our podcast, to...

ask our fans to binge and help us grow the show. So if everybody who is listening can tell one friend, listen, I've got a whole season of podcasts. Discussing your favorite show. Discussing your favorite show. We can go back, we can watch the show and listen to the podcast in tandem. It helps us...

grow the show, helps us continue to do the show. You can patronize our sponsors, but spreading the word, subscribing, leaving reviews, just telling everyone you know, ensures that we can go through all six seasons. - Let's do it. We got 106. - And that's the plan. - That's the plan. - Right? - That's the goal. - That's the plan, yeah. - Mandy's gonna have a baby, she'll be laid up, still.

Still with the microphone in her face talking about me. Absolutely. Nothing's going to hold me back, stop me from hanging with you guys. Okay, so my 118 sort of anecdote. Again, I was in Vancouver working on The Predator, and I'd seen like a rough cut of it before.

It's almost like you just really want people to watch Predator. That too. That too. Wherever you are, you can find it anywhere you stream films. But I called Fogelman. I had this phone call and I said, hey man, you sure that's how you want to end season one of the show? And he was like, what do you mean? I was like, I'm not comfortable. I don't like it.

- Daniel. - I was very uncomfortable. Not because it wasn't excellent, because it was, but it was how excellent it was at making me feel uncomfortable. And so much of the show kind of leaves you feeling warm and fuzzy and sort of like, oh, like you said, like a blueprint for living life or whatnot. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I felt like this one's striking purposefully, intentionally, a very different chord. And he said very smartly, he's like, "We gotta give him something that leaves him on the hook

so they can see what happens. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? - Sure, sure. - And I was like, okay. Because I remember, we didn't do a table read for this, but even in reading the episode, 'cause I refer to it, the Mandy and Milo argument as the scene, because

They shot it and like, they tried to do it in a one-er. And then there was like one cut. - One little edit. - Was it two or one ultimately? I can't remember, but you guys rehearsed it. - As one. - Like a play. - Yes. - You know what I'm saying? And Ken was so, I remember just watching him walk you guys through that and everything. He's like, 'cause there's a lot of overlapping dialogue. And he's like, "You guys have to say it, but you have to listen at the same time and make sure you hear him with the other person." So real quick, because we'll get to it.

How long did you guys work that scene? Because that scene was a beast. It was a beast. We didn't, I mean, we did this like sort of faux rehearsal where we kind of like choreographed it for lack of a better word, for camera positions and stuff since we were aiming to shoot it in one shot. Right. Helping our Steadicam operators like know where we were going and that we were all sort of on the same page. So I'd say we had like,

One rehearsal, it was like maybe we were done with work early on a day and kind of like went to the Pearson house and walked through it as a unit to kind of figure out our little steps and stuff. But I remember Milo and I not wanting to like rehearse it too much. It was just sort of like, let it go.

and do its thing on the day. But I too remember Dan coming up to us at some event and telling Milo and myself that this is how we wanted to end the season and that the episode was primarily, it was just really going to be Jack and Rebecca and kind of how they met and obviously their standing present day. And I just was like, wow, this sounds so daunting.

And two, I had the utmost faith and trust in Dan's intentions and where he wanted to take the show ultimately. But I was like, oh, wow. It felt uncomfortable as well. It was. So let's start with that uncomfortability. Yeah, because it all starts with a drunk Jack behind the wheel going to see. But he makes it to the bar. He makes it. So the audience is going, okay.

But he's in the car. The car ride is a little wild and I think that, yeah. He doesn't. He makes it. He doesn't perish on the way to the club. Yeah. All right. So that wasn't it. Yeah. And then it sort of, okay, then they sort of flash back to a clean shaven. First time we've seen

him clean shaven. First clean shaven Jack Young Jack. Baby Milo. Helping out Mrs. Peabody not taking too much money just trying to be a good dude to be of service she gave him five bucks for fixing his car etc. And then we hear for the first time from Mrs. Peabody how'd you come back from Vietnam so nice? Uh huh.

which i think that's the first time that we know yeah it's a big piece of information but jack was a vet and he says i was just a mechanic so maybe like not being caught up in the action like had something to do with it essentially again more information like oh okay okay he was a mechanic in vietnam right right good to know let me file that away let's clock that okay then we see young rebecca malone

hanging out with her homies. - Yeah. - And this reminded me, 'cause they're talking about like, one's pregnant. - Yep. - The other one is, I don't know if she's married or whatnot, but like, they're all sort of like ensconced in- - Domestic life. - Domestic life. And you are the artist. - Yes. - You're the singer. And it made me ask this question. Have you guys ever tried to share your dream of what you wanted to do with people who were just like, huh?

For real? Like, or did you keep it close to yourself? I ask that question because like in my family, my mom was fully supportive from jump. I think my mom wanted to be a doctor.

But she wasn't allowed to go to medical school because her dad said that they couldn't afford it, but sent his son to pharmacy school because it was something that, you know, if a boy's going to do it, then it makes sense or whatnot. So my mom was like, no, if my son says he wants to do this, I'm going to find a way for him to do it. Where other people in my family would be like, what are you talking about? What is this? You're wasting. So I'm curious, like, how did you...

Guard your dream. How did you? I think the biggest gift that my parents ever gave me was never even putting me in a position where I realized I had to guard anything. Wow. Really? That's a huge gift. That's a gift. It made me a bold, stupid person.

you know, driven young person to think that acting was an option. Right. But there was never anybody in my life who flinched.

Wow. Yeah, yeah. No, it's one of those gifts that I look back now and I'm like, oh, that's the gift. Amazing. That's the gift. I feel similarly. Yeah. Really? I think I credit any bit of longevity to my parents, not just being great parents, but like,

There was never a conscious, like, are you sure you want to do that? Like, we have to drive you around town to auditions. Yeah. It was never a question. Like, oh, that's what you want to do? And the boys want to play football or they want to do whatever their projects were. And this is what I wanted to do. My mom and dad are like, okay, we'll figure it out. Yeah. I think there was...

resistance at school or maybe there was a perception of that from my standing that i never resistance or jealousy jealous maybe there was resistance on my part to tell people too much about what was happening outside of school because i never wanted to be viewed differently right and and i feel like

I was so worried that there would be that, like, you think you can do that? You think you're. Right. Hard for, hard for young kids to relate to record contracts. Sure. Yeah. Sure. Even, even just like getting a play or doing like a local commercial or something. I was like, I don't want to bring that dynamic. Yeah. The school environment. I get that. Okay. So, but you guys are still pretty blessed. That's pretty. Incredibly so. Cool. Yeah. Yeah.

- Yeah, I think my friends were very supportive of me. I do remember senior year, my friends were worried

they're like, what are you doing with your life? And I was like, I'm going to go to grad school. And they're like, are you sure? I was like, yeah, I'm going to apply to these three. Me getting to one, I only wound up applying to one grad school that takes like, it has 800 applications and the 16 people get in. But I was like, I'll get in. It'll be fine. And so it was sort of naivete on my part as well. But it worked out. It worked out okay. How much of anything is naivete? And just like, yeah, that's what I'm going to do. Yeah. Like you,

It makes you realize that a huge part of, for me personally, a huge part of failure is doubt. And it usually...

failure for me is not an external force on, it's usually internal for me. And so to not have to be faced with that at 18, 19, you know, to be living in an apartment with four roommates, waking up every morning, mailing out my headshot, thinking that that's without an agent. This is the game. That's how it's going to work. So I send out these headshots and then I literally, guys, I used to walk into agencies and

with my headshot. - Like, just gonna leave this right here for you. - And if there's anybody I could talk to, speak with. - Just to the public at large, it's not the way it typically goes. - That is not how it works. - I sent a headshot to every single agent in Los Angeles and was graced with zero response except for one no thank you letter.

Which was nice, actually. God bless them for taking time for the letter. Yeah, from Sutton, Barth, and Benari, who I'm now a client of. But yeah, just that naivete of like, all right, the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing, that it never even occurred to me that this wasn't going to work out. Totally.

is what helped it work out. - Yeah, and so that's interesting because I think that's exactly the space that- - Rebecca is in. - Rebecca is in right now. She's like, "Look, I know you guys think this way, but I'm actually getting pretty close to some things. It's going pretty well. Like I made this demo, I'm sending it out. Like I'm excited for what's going to come." - Right, right. - Right, right. - Okay. - And it's a beautifully framed episode in that what we have is an impending,

of Jack and Rebecca, or we think. Yes, because Mrs. Peabody wants to set him up. Yes. He agrees. And your friends want to set you up. Correct. Or Rebecca up. Yeah. But it's, what's the word I'm looking for? It is mirrored by an impending end. Yeah.

Yes. And they are mirrored against each other. It's the beginning and the end, quote unquote, all in one episode. So Rebecca gets home, young Rebecca gets home. She does get some sort of form of rejection in a letter from a record company and it makes her go, you know what? Maybe my friends are right. Yeah. Maybe I'm not like, there's no focus on my love life. I should just heed their advice, get set up.

go on this blind date. And so as an audience, we're led to believe like this is how, this is the Jack and Rebecca meet cute. - Exactly. Okay. So wait, before we get to that part, we go back to the present or we go back to adults with kids, Jack and Rebecca, and Jack is ordering a drink at Rebecca's show.

Beck's nervous backstage. She tells Sam, she's like, "I should be at home watching ER." Yeah. Yeah. Which is a really good, 'cause ER was awesome. Yeah. It was. And Jack's not just ordering a drink. He orders a bud with a bourbon back. With a bourbon, not a water back. Which is not somebody ordering a drink. That is somebody getting drunk.

And he's already drunk. But believe me, that is a person on a path. This is a path. A bad path. When we get Milo on the show, I need to ask him, because Milo does not really drink that much. No. But Milo's drunk. Yeah, really good drunk acting. Really good. Pretty damn good. Yeah. I was like, I don't want to see that. So maybe he knows something about that. So she's talking about that. And they have a moment. He holds her hand like, Rebecca's going to be fine. Now, here's my question to you as an actor versus character.

When you go forehead to forehead with a dude, do you feel like you might be sending a signal to make yourself available? Hold on. Sterling, are you saying she asked for it? Because I don't like the way this is going. I'm not saying anything. I'm saying, like, as a human being, if you come forehead to forehead with a man, with an ex-lover. With an ex-lover. Oh, ex-lover my ass.

Look, was it the most appropriate? Probably not. I just, in that moment, I was like, ugh, I...

I am so nervous. This is like, he's my touchstone. Like we're in this together. We're on this tour. There's so many people out there. Like I'm with you. I disagree with Sterling. No, no Sterling. I'm not. I'm not. I was just trying to justify it. I had to justify that to myself. If we went to forehead to forehead, we would know exactly what it was. Correct. Yes. We would know exactly what it was. Cause you're not ex lovers. It's me and Mandy Moore touching base. I absolutely feel like,

She was surprised by the way that he turned that around. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think her intention was very clear of like, this is my buddy, we're in this together. Of course, yes, of course. He's my rock in this and I'm terrified at the prospect of a room full of people out there. Yes.

why am I doing this to myself? And why did I think I belonged here? A million questions are sort of like, you know, surfacing. We're going to have Sam on later in the episode. We'll ask him. Yes. And I totally agree with you. I was wondering if it was one of those moments as an actor and a character, if there was any schism. For sure. There was some schism, but I had to sort of buy into the fact that like,

There was absolutely, there was zero intention. Sure, of course, of course. No matter what is happening with Jack, at the end of the day, these are two people who are cosmically linked and connected. And I think without a doubt, Rebecca knows that they're going to find their way through this moment. Right. So it's like, it is the furthest thing from her mind when he does make that move and is inappropriate. Yeah, he tries to kiss her, yes.

Yes. And tries to kiss her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Puts him in check immediately. But it's just like, I think the biggest letdown. He was right. Of course he was right. Jack was right, but also like, damn it. Yeah. I can't have anything for myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like this guy had to ruin this moment because like, I can't be on the road with him now. Yeah. There's no possible way to go through with the show like this.

And yeah, it just was, I think, so absolutely defeating and deflating for her. - Incredibly disappointing. She bounces out of there. You know, I can't believe you did this. - She goes to call Jack. - Yeah, she goes to call Jack, walks right by Jack, who is just, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." - Who at this point in the editing has been through, I'm pretty sure, six drinks. - Yeah. - Which is a ton of drinks. - Yes. - So then we go back and we hit up young Jack.

And his dad belittling him. And I wanna, if you can find my man who plays Jack's dad. This guy- - It should be on the document here, hold on. - Was so damn good. And he's one of those actors that we've seen like all of our lives. - In a million things, yeah. - In a million things.

But he did such a good job. - Peter Onorati. - That's right. - Of sort of contextualizing what our patriarch came out of, what he came from to sort of show them like, man, to be where he is is a feat in and of itself. - That's right. - Absolutely. - Because he received very little in terms of like,

being buoyed by his father. His mom was almost relegated to silence. - Sure. - And a house that was maybe not physically abusive, even though there were times, I believe in which like he was, but all emotionally incredibly damaging. It wasn't a place to flourish. - Sure. - You know what I'm saying? - And no model of love and monogamy and what he ended up building with his own family and wife.

Yeah, I mean, even in the episode, and we'll get to it, he talks about like, "I tried to be someone that he was not." Right. Right? And look where it got me, but we'll get to that in a second. This whole run-up just showing young Jack as a driven man who is trying to break away. Yeah. He's trying to break away on his own, trying to make something for himself.

And he is with his buddy who is-- Darryl. Darryl, who is played by Jeremy Luke. He's great. Yeah, he's great. Incredible. And the two of them are trying to start a mechanics business. Exactly. He's saving cash. And they're doing whatever they can, $5 at a time, to break out on their own. Exactly, exactly. And he says, I got to get out of that house, right?

And so they say like, what about your buddy's poker game? Was it his cousin or something like that? And he's like, Darryl's like, hey man, you don't want to do that. Some bad guys there. He's like, hey, you know what? Who cares? Let's just give it a shot. It's no big deal. We go to Jack and Ben, right? - Oh yeah. - And he's looking for his wife.

- Yeah. - Running around backstage screaming. - Looking for my wife. And then he goes to a place, "I'm just looking for my wife." As he goes down the stairs, Steadicam following him down. He turns to the side so Steadicam doesn't get too far behind. Walks into the room, nobody's there. Then he finds Ben or whatnot. He's like, "Where's my wife?" And Ben's like, "Hey man, just take it easy. You're drunk. Settle down." - This is a big deal for us. - Don't blame her for my mistake.

And I'm like, I'm telling you, I'm going to talk to Sam. Why do you keep saying this shit to Jack? Do you know who you're talking to? You're giving up way too much. He clearly has no idea. You don't know who you're talking to. Jack was in NAMM. Which we all know now. And I don't think he was just a mechanic. And that look on his face. Like, what'd you say? And he just launches it. Boom, boom.

Pulls him out. He's like, okay, all right, whatever. Beck comes in. Catches him. It's like, bro, why do you keep fucking up my shit? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And then she's like, I'm going to take him home. And she's like, are you sure? And he's like, it's over, Ben. Yeah, it's all over.

It's all, ugh. It's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking again because I just like, I was like these two dumb men that just got in the way in every way possible of completely eradicating this dream. It's just, ugh. We'll be right back with more That Was Us.

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Here's a question to you real quick, because I know they were like, especially in season one, there's a lot of feelings about Beck and like Rebecca and how, what kind of wife slash mother she was and whatnot. Like what was the heat? What was happening around this episode? How were they feeling? The public at large? I think just in general, there was not a lot of love lost.

Really? Oh, people... Oh, they were vicious. Yeah, they were not into Rebecca. And maybe it was like a collection. It was just sort of...

The overall idea of her present day and everything, all the baggage with Randall and Miguel. It was a lot. Because they love Jack that much? Yes. And Jack deserves. Yes. I remember reading some stuff. Oh, yeah. People were like, how could this woman choose her career over her family? She has three kids at home. She has a husband who loves her. What gives her the right to... And I was like...

I think I'm going to take a break from social media for a while. It's like, no wonder Hillary didn't get elected. Jeez, guys. Like, this was the end of 2016, beginning of 2017. I was like, got it. I know what's happening in the zeitgeist. But yeah, there was a lot of animosity towards Rebecca and the choices from women specifically that really caught me off guard. Yeah, yeah.

But it did start to shift, I think. Not in this episode, because again, going into season two and I think like over time, people didn't have as much blame for her. I'll revisit that again when we get to the scene. Okay, got it. So Beck leaves, she drives home, drag home in silence, right? Yep. Young Rebecca gets the rejection letter. She decides to go on the blind date.

Young Jack getting ready for his blind date, goes to the poker game. Now I gotta tell you, I love watching poker on camera. Yeah. Isn't it great? It is always just tense. It's very exciting. And just sort of exciting and you don't know what's gonna happen. It's literally where we get the word stakes. It literally is. It's literally where we get the word high stakes. Totally, right? So you've seen him play, Jack gets dealt three queens, an ace, and a three, right? He gets rid of two cards. I would probably kept the ace high just by myself, I would have asked for one card.

but he gets two cards and he winds up, they don't show because we see the guy who's running the game. He's like, I'll get in here. He's got a full house. It's like tens over threes, tens over fives, something like that. So they proceed to like, he antis him all the way in till he like pays off all of his money. My man reveals his full house. We know Jack has three Queens. It turns out that he got a fourth.

and takes the whole thing. He's like, you know what, guys? Maybe this game is too rich for my- - Yeah, I was leaving. I was like- - Listen, I've played in a fair share of poker games. Some friendly, some not so friendly. - Sure. - What was Jack thinking? He must be like, I guess one hand's good for me.

He gave all your money and run. You know what you do when you win that? You sit there and you fold for the next hour. Sure. There you go. You get your cards no matter what they are. You fold and you get. Here's the other part. You fold for the next hour or whatever. Then when you get out, you don't stand next to the door and celebrate with your homie. You run the fuck as far away as you can.

Get in your car and leave. You run. I thought the same thing. I was like, don't celebrate right outside the door. No, because what I love is though that there's a head fake because his buddy tries to celebrate and he goes, no, no, come on, come on. And then they go six feet over. It's the logistics of getting the shot without having to get another location. Come on, come on right here. We did it!

Cartoonists. So funny. So funny. And then they proceed to get the shit beat out of them. And it's just...

You see this guy get a break, you feel so happy for him and then it just all goes away. The wind knocked out of his sails. You know what I'm saying? Okay. Can we jump ahead in this storyline to them meeting? Yes. Because he decides I'm getting that money back and he goes to Ray's and he and his buddy decide they're going to rob the guy who robbed them, which already seems like a really bad idea. Totally.

Jack actually has a really good plan, and it probably would have worked. It probably would have worked. But he gets interrupted while he's trying to rob his own money back. Because he sees his future wife, who left her blind date with Ethan. And Mandy Moore's face when she's on this date with Ethan, who shows up a little bit late. Yeah. And he's like an investment banker or something like that. Yeah, he's lovely enough. He's so boring. And the boredom on Mandy's face is like, oh, man.

- This is. - This is not my line. - I have to leave. - This is not the path. And she's like, I think you described him as like lovely. - Yeah. - Which like from a dude, he's like, you're such a lovely, and you're like, oh, okay. - Yeah. - Did I say something wrong? No, you're lovely. - She gets up to go to her open mic night and she's singing "Moon Shadow" at the very same spot that Jack is about to rob. And he turns and he sees. - And she sees. - And she sees. And the connection happens, right? That's the beginning.

of these, of Jack and Rebecca. - Counterpoint that. - Do that, go to the present past. You know what I'm saying? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - You got the timelines all over. Because at one point in time in the car, Jack says like, "Beck," which she's like, "No, don't talk, not until we get home."

they get home and the scene happens they walk into the kitchen first it's quiet i think you get him peas for his hand and get him some water so he can start sober up or whatnot and then you start it you start it jack starts it i can't remember i can't remember we're just sitting in silence and then they start to talk and all the frustrations start to to boil up right and there's a couple of bars that i gotta remember because

There's words that are said. And this is something that we've talked about as married people, right? We try to actively avoid having to say like, "I didn't mean that." Right.

Try not to say stuff that you don't mean because you should be held accountable for every word that comes out of your mouth. And they say some stuff that it's like, even the next day they say like, hey, I know we were in the heat of the moment. But we meant those things. But we meant it. And you can't take that stuff back. I'm curious. What? I have no life.

Rebecca says many times over and over again. And then when she's trying to say what she's trying to do, he says, "You're a 40-year-old woman singing covers in pubs. That is not a career, Rebecca. That is ridiculous." - Uncomfortable. - Yeah. The word ridiculous gets thrown back by both of you. - Yeah. - Yeah, ridiculous. And it is such a demeaning word. Yes.

Yes, it is. Such a patronizing word. Yeah. Yeah. She says, he goes like, you know, why are we doing this? We love each other. And she goes, what do you love about me right now, Jack? The gauntlet. And he says, nothing. Crickets. Crickets. And she says, so the next time you tell me that you love me, make sure you're not doing it out of habit.

walks away. And that's how it ended. That's how it ended. But like, I'm telling you, like there's, there's the first cut is when you walk to the living room, I believe, because it's all in the kitchen at first. Then we cut, we have one cut to the living room and then you guys move to the family room across. And that's where things really get like shouted out, et cetera. And,

I realize how invested I am in mom and dad. I feel like when I'm watching the show, I'm watching mom and dad. I was like, please guys, stop arguing. Please. It is making me very sad and very uncomfortable. So the next day, Rebecca comes down. We see that Jack wound up sleeping on the couch downstairs. And she says, you know what? Look, we said some things earlier.

And even though it was in a heated moment, we meant it and we can't take it back. And that's the beginning of like, maybe you should go stay with Miguel and we need to take a breath right now. Right. So I'm imagining again too, I'm going back to like the Twitterverse and like how people are reacting to Rebecca. I'm sure that probably wasn't like the shining moment for Rebecca. Yeah. No, no.

People were not satisfied with that ending. And like you said, it's like this sort of discord ending the season on that note. Yeah. The last frame of the episode is this shot of the sun coming through the window on your face. Yeah. And you're sitting there and you're thinking, it's so beautiful. Yeah. And it just made me realize, like...

you know, obviously this show is an ensemble and there's a lot of stories going on. But like, this is a story about this woman's life. Yeah, absolutely.

It concretizes, like, you are the through line that carries and connects this whole... And this story is not uncommon. As specific as this woman's life is, this story is not uncommon. A person with big dreams who is in a societal system that encourages family and relationship and growth and denying that

that path for, especially in the, in the what, the '80s and '90s of a woman who had a dream like that. And it's just, it was such a, at the end of this episode, I was like, oh, this is, and I had said this and known this, but I was like, of course, this is Rebecca's story.

This is all Rebecca's story. There's a few. In that last scene, we have a quick montage of the big three and what they're doing in their lives. Because you're like, are we going to mess the kids up? And they're like, no, he says they're going to be fine. Yeah. Right? We see Kate makes a decision that she wants to be a singer. Yeah. Right? Like mom. We see Kevin in bed who gets a phone call. From Ron Howard. From Ron Howard. Yeah.

to be the lead in his next film. Okay, Ron. He thinks it's a prank phone call. He's like, okay, Randall, whatever. He's like, no, this is really me. I came to see your play. I thought you were wonderful, right? And we know it's really Ron Howard because Ron Howard is in our show all of a sudden. Yeah. It's really Ron Howard. Cameoed. And then we see Randall looking through old pictures and whatnot, coming to his wife and saying,

I think I want to adopt. Yeah. Like that's how he really wants to honor William. That's how he really wants to honor William. And the last things that we hear Jack say, they're talking about how like, you know, I was supposed to have another date the night that we met, right? And Rebecca says, I wonder who she was. And he says, I never have. That's right. Like that. And he says, you're not just my great love story, Rebecca. You were my big break.

He leaves out the door, the sunlight behind Rebecca, holding her moon necklace. And that's how we end season one.

It's pretty good. It's terrified of me. I was terrified. I was like, I want mom and dad to be okay. I think that's why I called Dan. You know what I'm saying? Like, are they going to be okay? Are they going to be okay? Yeah. Right? And like, we've hinted at before. It's like, you know, I guess one couple can't make it. Yeah. Who's it going to be? And also, like...

I think it's so important to think about like the weight of what was said the night before. Yeah. These are things that have never been uttered. Yeah.

to anyone, let alone to each other. I mean, this is a couple, I think, who are open, but also, I think Jack, as he says, actually, later in season two, he's a man of a different generation who is not able to express himself in the way that, like, we all freely understand. Like, everyone should be able to express themselves nowadays. Yeah.

And so I think that complicates things further. There was so much that had never been said to one another that you can't take back that just like it throws everything into question. Yeah. You know? It does. And I think, I just, I know that we were really...

we wanted to make sure that it landed in such a way that you were like, are these people going to be okay? Or is this the beginning of the end of this relationship? Because it was important for people not to just be like, well, they'll patch things up. You feel that. I feel that too. Everybody feels as if, oh, you guys are relationship goals and they'll say that about...

Randall and Beth too, but it's like relationships take work. You know what I'm saying? And it's not that everything is always perfect. It is how you rebound from the imperfect. Right. For the imperfect. Which I don't think people are referencing when they talk about relationship goals. No. Not at all. They're looking at the highlights. Exactly. And they think, oh, that looks nice. Yeah. But yeah, the full picture of it is...

has many more hills and valleys. - Amen, amen. Okay, this was it, but we have a guest coming up. - Yes. - Sam Trammell's gonna be joining us. So stick around, we'll be back after these messages. - More That Was Us after these words from our sponsors.

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Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome our very special guest, Sam Trammell. Hey! How are you? We're doing well, sir. How about yourself? I'm good. You look good. I'm good. Sunny day here in LA, and you know. Fresh face. You have the blonde highlights are kicking in that hair. Delightful. Oh, is it looking blonde? That's great. If it's looking blonde, I'm good with that. The powers of Zoom. Yeah.

We were just recapping the final episode of the season and talking all about your interactions with Rebecca and Jack, obviously through the entire first season, but especially in this last episode. The kiss, man. What made you pull it off? Jump right in. What made you go to it? Did you feel as if you had an opening? Did you feel... You make it sound like Sam was the one who decided, you know what? Hello, Rebecca!

I was like, let me rewrite this. Like, as if that was an improv. It was not an improv. It was written. The director and the writer's like, and Sam, listen, at any time, if you feel like it's Mandy, just go for it. If you just feel like it, there's an opening. Go for it. Yeah, it was...

I mean, it was kind of awkward because I'm kind of moving in and then we're kind of laughing and our heads are together. And I feel like I'm late with the move. Like I'm a little late with it. Then they cut to me, my face. And then finally I go in, but I feel like Mandy, I feel like you might've, Rebecca might've pulled back in real life and be like, what's this guy? We were just talking about the forehead thing. And Sterling's like, what's

Did you? And I was like, no, I really, I feel like as actor and as human, I had to sort of find a way to,

to really lean into the fact that this like Rebecca looked at Ben as her rock, right? Like she was, this is something that I think your character, he was a touring musician. He did this all the time. This was like new territory for her again. She was terrified. She had all of this self doubt and just that idea of like, Oh my, like my friend, like I, I,

I had to sort of like find my way into it that way. But of course, I think that was Rebecca's intention, but maybe it left the door open for Ben to sort of feel like,

i see my opening i feel like ben yeah i mean i feel like ben really was kind of naive as to like what marriage means what real relationships are you know like he kind of was just like oh i thought just you know maybe we could hook up yeah i don't know yeah i mean it felt very kind you know very like he didn't really have any sense of

you know i mean you have that great speech in an earlier episode to him where i say well if he really if jack really loved you he would he would let you do this and he's like if he really loved me do you have any idea and then you go into this beautiful long thing about uh what marriage is and all the different things he does for you yeah yeah and i feel like ben is just not like i don't know he seems like he doesn't know what's going on he's never been in a yeah real

Real relationship. We've mentioned it before with a lot of the guest star actors that came on this show that we feel that the world of our show has connected so well with the audience because our world is populated with kind of television stars.

legends for lack of a better word. And I'm including you in that. Like you coming on to the show, it connects the audience to the story. Like, I feel like I know this guy. I do know him. I do know this guy. And I'm wondering how you came to the show, like what that process was like. Yeah. I mean, there was, there was, you know, I mean, I'm sure you all remember, but sometimes you lose perspective.

But you guys were already like a hot, like there was already so much energy and buzz about your show. Yeah. Even by the midway point. Yeah. And then I, you know, they, you know, Ken Olin offered or whoever, you know, said, hey, there's this arc, you know, and.

And I watched some of the show and I was like, oh my God, this is like such high quality, such incredible dialogue. And so it was kind of a no brainer. I was like, for sure. I was wondering if it was an offer. It seemed like an offer. I was like, of course, this is the guy. Sam's the guy for sure. But then we had, I think it was one of those things where they say, can you sing?

And it was like, well, I was like, sure. But I couldn't really sing. And then Mandy, you must remember, we went in. I went in with Mandy to record in a studio this Sam Cooke song, which I don't know if it made it into the show. Did it? I don't think it made it into the Sam Cooke show. I think it did.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bring it on. Bring it on. Yeah. It's not in the finale. It's, it's in 16. Exactly. Yeah. 15 or 16. Okay. So, okay. Oh, God. That was very intimidating. Well, I had to get, come on, please. Cause you were already there. No, but Mandy, you were already in there.

And you had sung the whole thing. And then I had to sing it like in a different key, but exactly hit the, you know, and like, I don't do that. That's not your thing. I mean, it's not my thing. Like I play a little music, but I can't sing. So, but that was exciting. For anyone who's listening, when you're an actor and someone says, can you sing?

Whether you can sing or not, the answer is sure. And then you go figure it out. I say I can carry a tune. You can more than carry a tune. They can ask you anything. Real quick, do you juggle? Sure. Yeah. Whatever it is, you say sure. And then in the time between you answering and when you have to do it, you go figure it out. You gotta figure it out. Yeah.

Chris, I went, because then Ken called me and said, you know, I think we're going to go into the studio and do a little Sam Cooke song. And I was like, what? And, you know, in my head. And then I went and saw this vocal coach, this music teacher for like five sessions in the Valley. Like, I was like, I'm going into the studio, I got to sing. And

So it was, yeah. - And you nailed it. - I was like caught, you know. - You nailed it. - On my back foot, but it was fun. It was fun to, you know, it was fun to go and, you know, figure it out. - Wait, I'm just reading this thing. Did you have to like, did you practice to have like the song in a certain scale? And then when you came in and heard Mandy singing it, she was singing it higher? - Yes. - Oh no. - That's what it was. - Oh boy. - Yes. - Oh boy. - It's my fault. - She's got, she can do that. - Oh boy. - No. - Mandy's like, I like this key.

Exactly. She's like, we're just going to do this G sharp minor. Of course, of course, a G sharp minor. What other G would we sing it in? I have a question. It was fun. I have a question. So all your scenes are with Mandy, with Milo.

Let's talk to me a little bit. Did you guys know each other, Mandy, Sam, before you guys just met on the show? - No, we did. - Had a good time working with each other. - Did you and Milo know each other? - Did you know Milo? - No, I know, I didn't. I only knew Chris, we did a little movie, you know, a few years before. - That's right. - What'd you guys do? - We played a couple of very different white supremacists. - For real? - Yeah. - That's like your,

and butter's the leaf. Listen, I told you, I'm six foot four, I've got a shaved head.

Very intimidating. You need a white supremacist. You get Chris Sullivan. We were in a movie called, tell me the name, Sam. What's the name of it? Imperium. Imperium, starring Daniel Radcliffe. I wrote it down. And he played an FBI agent who was infiltrating a white supremacist, white nationalist organization. No, no. Well, yeah, Daniel Radcliffe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Trying to shake that pot around. And I played the very nice white supremacist. The guy next door. Yeah.

- Yeah. - And you play the- - I see that. That makes sense. If I wanted to deal with the white supremacists, I'd deal with Sam. - Come on in, come on in. It's all good. The water's fine. - We had a white power barbecue at Sam's house. - Did you? - Yeah. - In the film. - In the film. - Don't clip that. Do not clip that.

What was it like the confrontational scenes with Milo? Because I always say that I don't want to cross Milo Ventimiglia. And like, what I mean is Jack Pearson, but also Milo Ventimiglia. Like, was it intense? Like, did you feel the heat coming or was it like, no, it wasn't. I was just doing a scene. It was cool. Oh, no, I felt the heat. Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know.

I mean, I can't remember the day, but let's just say, just, it's a good story. Milo. I don't know, but I seriously don't know if he even spoke to me that day. Like he was like in his, you know, he was really, uh, really focused. And, and he also had to be drunk. Like he had some things going on. Yeah. So he was really, and I was like, that's,

cool because we don't need to you know he just needs to hit me you know um i just need to grab for him and he hits poor unsuspecting ben we were we were laughing about it earlier it's like do you know who you're saying these things yeah it's like it's like yeah read the room like you keep volunteering information that he didn't have like time and again i was like well you should ask a question ask him what you know hey

hey, Jack, what are you doing? You see him upset, Jack. Is there anything wrong? Naive. Don't punish her for my mistakes. It's like, oh, man. Truly. Was there any...

We as a cast obviously dealt with any kind of, I don't know what you would call it, interpersonal ramifications on social media between the characters. Right. Was there any of that? Since you were technically the thing coming between America's favorite married couple. Sure.

Was there any of that on social media? You know, there wasn't only because I really wasn't on social media. Believe it or not. Smart. I wasn't even on Instagram yet. Good, good. But I was on Twitter. That's where it really goes down. But, you know, the people complaining about me, I don't know if they were doing Twitter, but believe me, I was mortified just walking around town during that time. It's like, for real.

Like you guys were such a great couple. And it's like, who is this interloper? So I felt the heat from town, just in general. So funny. I think anybody who comes in between Jack and Rebecca, I think Miguel, like for six years, kind of.

kind of had to deal with that whole thing or what have you. Even when you started dating, like later on, you started dating this one guy or trying to date him. And like Kev was the one who was like, who's this dude that you're trying to like start life over again with? Like, it's tough. Anytime somebody comes in between America's favorite couple. So, yeah. Yeah. I think my agents might, when I got, you know, when the offer came, they were, I think they may have said, you know, this could turn into something, you know? And, and the second, the second,

I got on set and, you know, saw the relationship. I was like, no, this is, this is, this is,

This is, you're out as soon as possible. - You're getting punched for sure. - There's no season two. I'm getting punched, you know, best case scenario. - Did you watch at all beyond your time? And this is not even like sort of fishing for anything because like sometimes when you're done with the job and you're done, you're like, okay, that was cool. Did you keep up with the show at all in knowing terms of like where things were going or did you hear things from time to time? - Oh yeah, for sure. Like I,

I watched a few. I didn't watch the whole series. And I was also on in the last episode. But yeah, I would tune in. Once in a while you'd ask around, does she miss me? Yeah, for sure. I can't watch it. Does she miss me? Can I come one more time just to have somebody punch me in the dadgum nose?

See who else can. There you go, dude. Thank you so much. Yeah. Making time to hang out with us and reminisce. Is there anything that, uh, that you'd like to share with our audience about what you're up to these days? We can find you, see you support you. Oh yeah. I, I, I have, um, a civil war mini series. It's, it's going to be coming out. Fantastic. Fairly soon. It'll be streaming, uh, you know, on a spot near you. It's yeah. It's, um, it's really interesting. It's, um,

Roland Jaffe directed it and we have a bunch of great actors in it. Fantastic. I play Jefferson Davis. Yeah. All right. But it's an interesting thing. It's three women spies for the North. It's a true story. Yeah.

Southern women who spied for the North. So it's gonna be really good. It's like nine episodes. - What's the name of the show? - Oh, "The Grey House." That's a good one. - "The Grey House." Jefferson Davis, president of the Confederacy. - Yes. - So another white supremacist. - Well, benign white supremacist. - Geez, the two of you guys. - The only two Sterling. The only two I've done get brought up on that show. - And where can people find the show? Where is it streaming?

Not totally. I don't know that quite yet. Okay, got it, got it. But yeah, yeah, yeah. But just it'll be Netflix or one of those. Very cool. The Grey House. Yeah, great to see you guys. Good to see you too. Thanks for coming by. And the hair really does play as blonde. You look good. Keep it. I love it. Oh, thank God. I love you. Love you back, brother. Take care of yourself, Sam. Thanks, Sam. Good to see you, Sam. Take care. Nice to see you guys. Bye.

Welcome back. We are to one of our favorite segments of the show, the fan segment. And we sure do love them. And you know what else we love? Love. My spouse. Our spouses. Yeah, and our spouses. We do. Love, love.

- At the end of this episode, Jack tells Rebecca what he loves about her. He paused initially, but now he comes back after a night of sleep and he says, "He loves the mother that she is, that she's still the most beautiful woman in any room, the way she laughs with her entire face," and shout out to Mandy Moore, you do laugh with your entire face, "how she dances funny and not sexy, but in a sexy way," which is also Mandy Moore. - I don't know about that. It's just funny.

And that she's still the same woman who all those years ago ran out of a blind date because she simply had to sing.

Yeah. So for today's fan segment, we asked you to tell us what you love most about your spouse so we can help make their day and remind them just how wonderful they are and just how much you love them. Let's do this, man. We love love. We love it. We love it. We love it. Really going to make the day of one special spouse. We are. So we're going to start it off with...

we wanted to highlight this really beautiful letter from Ashley who wrote in to tell us all about her incredible husband, Joey. I believe we have a picture of them. We got a picture that we're going to put up here. There they are. Look at that little baby. Oh my gosh. Looking all maverick and goose. Oh man, they're doing a thing. I mean. He's got that pilot stash. He's got that sexy pilot stash. I like. So Ashley says, my husband Joey is a Navy pilot and my favorite thing about him is no matter how...

How crazy our life is, he embraces the adventure and is the calm to my anxious. He made it home from his most recent deployment one month before the birth of our first child, born in March.

Although I had to do most of our pregnancy alone, quote unquote, he tried to be there the whole time. He would attempt to schedule his flights so that he could FaceTime into every OB appointment, even if it was 2 a.m. wherever he was in the world. He read What to Expect When You're Expecting before he left, so he was prepared to talk about some of the harder pregnancy things or things he thought that I would be anxious about and so much more. He is the best husband and

and dad. And I am so thankful to be his wife on this adventure. He is the best rock solid defender to my Randall stuck in my head. Oh my goodness. Ashley. That is so sweet. Ashley, that's so incredibly beautiful and romantic and

To be able to acknowledge that, to see that in your partner. Yo, Joey. And Joey is doing a good job. And how awesome it is to be able to unabashedly just sing your spouse's praises. Yes. I love that. Ashley and Joey, that's so beautiful. I'm so inspired by how you guys do life together. We also wanted to highlight a couple of the other submissions that we received. So we got Vince.

Anna wants you to know she thinks you're the most caring and have the kindest soul. Michael, Lisa shared that you make her feel safe and that you saved her life just by loving her. Emily. Wow.

Joe told us he loves your determination and that you give your all every time. Come on now. He said you are an incredible mother and wife and soulmate. Then we have Max. Ayla says her favorite thing about you is not only your openness to change, but willingness to do it. Come on. Brett, your wife, are we saying Taya? Taya? Taya? One of the T-A-Y-A.

Taya. Taya. If you are married to a woman with that spelling of a name, she's talking about you, Brett. There you go. Come on. If your name is Brett, she loves that you encourage her to find yourself amidst her feeling lost in motherhood. Wow. Eric, Becky loves your passion for making food you know she'll enjoy. There you go. All right. That's the way to anybody's heart.

And Matt, Leigh-Anne tells us you've made her laugh every single day you've been together. That is also the way to someone's heart. That's pretty outstanding. Gang, we're all married. We all have spouses. Come on. You're on the hot seat. Rachel, thank you for... Go? Well, since I didn't say, I wasn't saying anything because my script wouldn't come up. If anyone's wondering why, Chris is just sitting over there. He doesn't love love at all.

I mean, that's out of the box. Rachel, I love that you make me feel safe enough to explore the darker sides of myself and that you celebrate me at every chance. You lift me up all the time and you are an incredible mother to our children. Hell yes, she is. Rachel, shout out to Rachel right there. Yeah, shout out to Rachel. We love you. Let me go with Ryan Michelle Bathay.

who I've known since my freshman year of college. We've been married for 18 wonderful years, gone through highs, lows, everything in between. We still laugh really, really, really, really hard. Like my wife and I crack each other up.

She challenges me to see the world in a different way, right? Like her perspective is always something that I don't anticipate. And oftentimes really helps to round out so that I don't get caught up in my own myopia and sort of like enjoy the perspective of another human being that opens my eyes to other possibilities.

- The mother that she is, is exceptional. And I gotta say, she's got two boys that sometimes are kind of overwhelming for her, but she gets in, we do tickle fights, she rides the vibe and it's all like all bear cubs up in the bed together. And it's a joy. You are the love of my life. Thank you for being my partner. - You guys, you make it really hard just to- - You got this, Manny Moore. - Please do not worry about it. None of them listen to this podcast. - They don't.

That's not actually Taylor listens to every episode. I mean, that says everything for you. I don't know how I lucked into finding this human in this lifetime. I am so exceedingly lucky for any compliment anybody ever gives me of like, you're a kind person. I'm like, oh, you don't, you don't know my husband. Like,

He is by far the better half of the couple in every discernible way. I just have so much admiration and respect for the man he is, the friend he is, the husband, the son. No one is more determined to be the very best without being a perfectionist. He always puts everyone else ahead of him. He is...

The best dad. I'm just like, yeah, I thank my lucky stars every day that somehow I was able to, like, find him and convince him to be with me. And he's my favorite. He's just my favorite person to be with all the time. And I tell him that, like, just every day. Like, I...

I'm so glad we get to be on this adventure together and just like get to hang out, you know, like he's, he's the greatest. We love our spouses. We love our spouses. We love love. Taylor, Rachel, Ryan, thank you for allowing us to hang out with each other and do this thing while you handle everything that needs to be handled in the meantime, in between times, we love you. We thank God for you.

And thank you for everybody who wrote in to our email account. That was us, pod at gmail.com. Feel free to write us anytime, literally anytime. The internet is open 24-7. 24-7. And you can write us an email whenever you want. Whenever. This is the end of the season, gang. So if you don't do the email, email's not your thing. You don't believe in computers. I completely understand. You can call us.

412-501-3028. Leave a voice message. Let us know what's going on with your life, how the show has touched you and how you have touched us. It's full circle. Everybody touches. And if you don't believe in computers still at this point, we should work on that. Probably. Because I'm not sure how you're listening or watching us. You can listen to it on the phone. If you're listening to this podcast and you don't believe in computers... It's a little computer. You are...

You are wrong. But this may be the end of season one, but we are back with season two. We're just rolling right in. Going right into the next one. That's right. Stick with us, gang. We'll see you on the next episode of That Was Us. Later. That Was Us is filmed at The Crow and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions and Sarah Warehunt. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. Da-da-da-dum, da-da-dum.

That was us.