Life After William | "What Now?" (S1E17) with special guest Denis O'Hare
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On today's episode of That Was Us, we will be discussing Season 1, Episode 17, What Now? The Pearson family gathers at Randall's for an unusual party. Kevin and Sophie's relationship deepens on the night of his play's premiere. Kate struggles to open up to Toby about her father's death. And tensions are high between Jack and Rebecca as she leaves on her tour with her band.

What's going on, gang? Hello. How we doing today? Good. Well, how are you? I'm doing great. I just love-- Sully, your look.

Mandy, your dress. Everybody looks so casual and cool. The digs. Yeah, check us out. If you want to see where we are today, you got to check out our YouTube channel because we were at the Rabbit Grin production offices. Yeah, we are. Brand new. Just a bit of a different environment. Yeah. Change things up. Change it up a little bit. It's cool in here. Nice and cool. Yeah. I know, right? We get hot sometimes. You'll see us misty. Yeah. Yeah.

Misty on camera. Plenty of air conditioning here. Yeah. It's not so bad. 117. 117. Where do, so we left off at- Coming up to the end of season one. Can you even believe it? Two episodes left. Like you say this all the time, so it's so full this first season. Yeah. So many things happen in the course of this. So-

We're back from Memphis. We have now said goodbye to William, but he is in the opening scene of 117, which I think is such a beautiful thing that Dan did, that he's gone, but he's still a fabric of our show. He's still a part of the painting. You know what I'm saying? A beautiful scene between him and

and Sue, well, between William and Beth, just sort of like, because it sets up that she didn't really get a chance to say goodbye to him. - Right. - You know? It opens with him. There's the note that he left. - You're packing up some stuff. She says, "You don't have to pack up his stuff just yet." - Yeah. - She finds this note. - Yeah. And he sort of, Randall's left wondering, like, "How do I honor my father's legacy?"

You know what I'm saying? What is it that I need to carry forth because now that he's gone? Something. And so it's a small thing that I tried to do. Nobody ever, like, I remember K.O. Yego and one of our writers being like, "Why has Sterling got this part in his hair?"

Because I was growing my hair out because he told me to grow my fro. So like I was trying to grow the hair out of the long and half the part going on. And she's like, Sterling just decided to put a part in his hair. You're like, there's a purpose behind it. There's a total purpose. I'm trying to honor his legacy through what he was telling me about that whole thing. But in the immediate world, William has left a note where he says...

Right now, you don't need to worry about it. Yeah. Because he hands over his memorial. To the girls. That is correct. To the girls. He doesn't want it to be a sad occasion. He wants it to be a celebration. And he figured the girls would know best how to have fun with it. They take it. They're like, we got this. Which is how we spend most of this episode is celebrating William. Celebrating William. So, okay. I know we'll jump around a little bit. But when we get to the funeral...

That's the joke that Randall tries to tell. Doesn't get any laughs, but I thought it was actually pretty funny. That's good. We go on this walk. This will be a jumping around sort of bit. You guys will have to help me out because I want to get to this one particular anecdote. Mandy knows exactly where I'm going. So we're walking down the street. Kev has to leave because he has, it's opening night of the play. Sure. That night, or the reopening night of the play. Right, right. Because he walked out the first time, you know, because he's a good brother and I love him.

And everybody sort of thins out, and it's the first time that Randall and Rebecca sort of get a chance to speak after William's passing. And Rebecca wants to say some things, and Randall's like, you don't have to do this right now. She's like, no, no, no, I do. I have to. She said, you know, you could have had more time, and I'm really sorry for depriving you of that opportunity now that he's gone. And Randall says, you know, it's okay. It's okay. We had enough time.

I had enough time to know that I loved him and that he loved me. And I want to say this too, because this is a huge thing that has personal resonance. Because I only had 10 years with Sterling Brown Jr., also known as my dad.

But the reservoir of love that that dude left me with, I carry with me to this day and pour into these two little boys that I have right now. So honestly, I actually feel the truth of that line. Sure. I don't know what Fogelman taps into when he'd be writing this crap, but I was like, okay, man, that's a good line. He knows. The anecdote of this thing.

Mandy Moore is one of my favorite actors. I'm just going to say that. Stop. Chris Sullivan. The whole cast. Mandy Moore, I have like a particular, because she is, when Mandy Moore locks in, it's like a mother effing laser, Jack. Like she cannot be sort of deterred. So we're shooting this thing. And when we talk to Milo, because one day he's going to come on our show, we're going to have a conversation with him.

But Milo likes to show up from time to time with his camera, 'cause he was just sort of like chronicling things, 'cause he wasn't a part of so many things in the present day that he just loved to be present to take pictures. - Like Jack's ghost floating around. - Like Jack's ghost just floating through. - Yeah, it really was eerie sometimes. - He's like, "Milo, what are you doing?" So Manny Moore's locked in. We all got like our funny hats on. - Our little plastic fedoras. - Little plastic hats. I have like the real one, but everybody has the plastic ones on.

And Mandy Moore is like, no, I have to say this. I need to say this is very important. And I'm listening to her. Yeah. Like really intently. And while I'm listening to Mandy Moore talk to me, a bird drops a deuce on her plastic hat.

I look up at the hat and I look back at her face. I was like, Mandy Moore's in it. She has no idea. You stay here. I'm going to stay here with Mandy Moore. This is where we stay together. And I'll never forget, Sterling. Yes. You were so kind and so gentle as not to alarm me because it's a very emotional scene. And I think that's very kind of you to say, but being locked in, there has to be so much like,

and intention behind Rebecca in general in the present day. But I think in terms of Rebecca and Randall's relationship and trying to repair and trying to mend and trying to account for 36 years of keeping this like unbelievable secret and the burden and everything that comes along with it. And now he's just passed away and the guilt that that elicits and,

So it's like I was so locked in to make sure that I was saying everything I needed to say in the right way. And Sterling, you just very gently like the scene must have been done or there was some sort of interruption or something. And you just said, everything's okay. But a bird defecated on your hat.

And we're going to get hair and makeup in here. Like you were so calm. You were so in control of the situation because, you know, it would have made me probably like freak out or get out of the moment. But you kept me in the moment. And someone came in and like assessed the situation, gave me a new plastic hat. We like were on our way again. But I'll just never forget how you like you took my shoulders and like very gently like broke this news to me. Yeah.

And I was like, okay, got it. I had to think about it. I was like, defecate. Oh, a bird shit on me. Okay, got it. Yeah, yeah. I remember back on that day, all of us, I don't think anyone thought far enough ahead to hand...

hand over the funeral processions to the girls. And then that would lead to one of the most beautiful scenes between two of the most beloved characters in this TV show with one of them wearing the stupidest plastic hat you could possibly buy. I remember putting mine on and being like, I have to wear this.

In this scene on television? And my head is huge. So look at mine. It's a yarmulke. It's a little plastic yarmulke sitting on the back of my head because it doesn't fit on my head. And I'm like, all of us are wearing, except for you, are wearing the dumbest plastic hats. And it's such a lovely scene.

this plastic hat on. Yeah, totally. It's a great scene. I was saying it because I was like, okay. I was like, I saw it. And it was on the front of the hat. Thank God it didn't get on the wig. Thank God. And I said, you guys see that in the monitor, right? And Zoe, hey, makeup. She's like, yeah, I saw it. I was like, okay, cool. Let's just replace it and keep it going because

The only place you want to stay in as an actor is the moment. So I didn't want to do anything to take you out of the moment. Never forget the reality of the logistics of we now have the entire cast and crew standing in the middle of a street somewhere in a neighborhood. Yeah, in Hancock Park walking around. So trying to stay in the moment. It's not like you're on a set where everything's contained and quiet and air conditioned. It's like, it is hot. There are angry neighbors. There's people walking

mowing their lawn, the leaf blowers on purpose. Yeah. This is, this is a fun, this is a fun fact for, for people outside of the industry in Los Angeles, specifically people, uh,

let's say mostly construction workers, people who have loud professions who have a bone to pick with the filmmaking industry. If they see you filming, they will make as much noise as possible on purpose because they know that locations will come over and say, excuse me, if I gave you $200, would you go away for an hour? No.

Smart. And I remember we were downtown shooting outside that theater and Ken Olin had to stop calling action because he

him yelling action. There was a guy across the street with a hammer, and every time he'd call action, he'd start hammering on a piece of wood on purpose. And so Ken was like, "We're not calling action anymore." - People are. - Lord have mercy. - But yeah, just the reality of those situations where it's like, okay, so Mandy Moore is standing out in full makeup wig in a dumb plastic hat in the sun. - And a bird just flew all over me. - Covered in bird shit.

Trying to apologize for a 36-year-old lie. It's just like...

- Our jobs are strange. - Very strange. - Very strange. - So, okay, since we're already there, let's talk about Randall's sort of trajectory through this episode. One of my earlier favorite moments, well, Randall and Beth too, because Beth is sort of really struggling with the idea that like, you know, the girl's got this assignment, you know, you got a chance to go on this trip, what have you. And now here I am, he was my friend too. And I loved him too, right?

so randall's working on his eulogy because he asked the girls if he could say some words whatnot they say we'll allow it he's working on his words he can't quite figure it out he starts off with his name he's like ah everybody knows his damn name brown like figure it out or pearson i should say and ultimately they're inside the uh his house and they have the little karaoke machine or whatever it is and he decides to hand the mic over to beth because she was the person who was really in it with him

I just, Susan Coletti-Wrighton again, one of my favorite people. Just...

bring such heart and warmth and sort of like the personal relationship to William in that moment. And I think it's also the beginning of Beth's voice augmenting throughout the course of our show. - Yeah. - Sure. - Shifting, shifting. - You know what I mean? Yeah, like there's her presence being more and more felt throughout the fabric of the family. There's a delightful scene either right before or right after that

When I'm looking through the mail, et cetera, and I see the postcards, et cetera. And the mailman. I wrote this down too. The mail. That guy's performance. You guys. Was exceptional. On the day when my man came and did it and I was just standing across. Bill Chott. Bill Chott? C-H-O-T-T.

one of the best actors on "This Is Us." - Bill, truly. - Wherever you are. - You killed it. - Killed it. - Yeah. - I was standing there and I was listening to him and he comes in and you know, we have a lot of guest stars come in or co-stars for like one scene or what have you. Everybody does a fine job. And this guy started talking. - Yeah. - And I was like, I couldn't breathe for a second, man. I was like, this man's about to get himself a spinoff.

He was so, it was just so beautiful to watch because you literally were able to walk through him receiving that news. Yeah. Like he, he comes into the scene, he's like, Hey,

"I've seen William, by the way, like, how's he doing? I know things weren't going so great." And you can tell, like, he's bracing himself. In a way, but-- Like, he doesn't wanna know the answer. Totally, but you also see him, like, the shock of, like, being told that he's no longer here.

And even my husband, who's not an actor and who doesn't notice this stuff, was like, wow, that guy was amazing. Yeah. He really was. It was so affecting in such a small, subtle little piece that gave you so much information about William. It's like, wow. And for Randall as well. It's not just for the audience. Absolutely. Yeah.

He really like he left this indelible mark on so many people in such a short amount of time. Absolutely. Absolutely. So shout out to Bill Schott. Bill Schott. I'm guessing it's Schott. It's C-H-O-T-T, but I'm guessing Schott. Schott or Schott, Big Bill, you did your thing. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. So then we go to see the play.

And the play turns out really, really well. And we'll dovetail back into that again. But after the play, Randall and Beth are going home. He says, I got to stop by the office. And she's like, what you got to do? He's like, it's just something I got to take care of real quick, right? So earlier, I should say from the mailman, he got a card from the office. And he got like a thing of peaches. Pears. Pears. He got this thing of pears, right? So he goes into the office and...

He says, man, for 10 years I've worked here. I've built this place up from nothing. I've given you weekends, holidays, et cetera. And I've been trying this whole time to figure out what to do with my father's legacy, how to best honor him. And I realize it's to take the lessons that he gave me on how he lived his life and incorporate them into how I live my life. And so with that said, Tyler, I quit.

"Quit." And he's like, "What?" And he's like, "Nope, no hard feelings, brah. I came, I saw, I conquered. Sanjay, it's all you." And he goes, "What are you gonna do?" I said, "You know, maybe start by slowing down a little bit, taking a walk, talking to my neighbors." - Talking to my mailman. - Talking to my mailman, right? And with a smile on his face, like a sense of like, like a load was just sort of released.

he left yeah and it was so the anecdote to this is every once in a while people will come up to me on the street and they'll talk about how the show has impacted their lives et cetera et cetera and this brother rolled up on me he said hey man i quit my job because of you i said hey bro i didn't tell you to quit before you go any further and how's it working out he said i was already leaning in that direction

But seeing Randall free himself for something that was not being beneficial to his life gave me permission to do the same. Wow. And you think you just doing a TV show, bro. Uh-huh. And then people reflect stuff back to you like that? Mm-hmm.

And you're like, wow. - Yeah. - Has an impact. - It means something, you know? It means something. So I had such a great time doing that scene. Like he puts the hat on at the end and he walks out of the office and everything. But you never know that people are gonna come up to you like that. The last part of this whole thing is that I just wanna make mention of Beth finding that

Because she's the whole time is where they're like, I never got a chance to say goodbye. In 1.16, he says, I'll send you a postcard. And you see him in Memphis looking for the postcard. He finds the one and he came through. And she's just a small moment, but just like of gratitude of like, I was remembered in this whole thing, you know?

So yeah. There was a small moment too when you received that card and those pears that Beth makes, Beth really makes Randall realize how messed up this is. She does. Like Randall might've just blown past us and be like, well, that's par for the course. Beth is like, no, no, no. You're allergic to pears. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The fact that they don't know that you've worked there for 10 years and you just lost your father. Right.

Yeah, what is it? The card said best wishes or something like that? Best wishes. The team. Yeah. It had the personal. And it wasn't really. It was typed out. Yeah. More That Was Us after this short break.

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or the beginning of the realization that the best way to honor this man, both of these men, I guess, both of your fathers, is to take care of yourself. - We actually have, one of the few scenes that I forgot that I actually had with Milo Ventimiglia as Jack

was the dream. - Yeah, with the two of them. - The dream with the two of them together with probably, and I think I have a good laugh, but those are two of the best laughs on set. - Yeah. - Yep. - Milo's laugh. - The two of them laughing together. - And Ron's laugh together. - And Ron's laugh. - I was in the scene, 'cause you don't hear a whole lot of it, but like you just hear them laugh and I was like, okay, this is fun.

It just made me feel warm. It makes you smile as an audience member. You're just watching it going like, oh. I also just want to kind of bring up, we're going to be lucky enough to speak to Dennis O'Hare later in this episode, but your quick scene with him in this episode I thought was really poignant because again, it continues to paint the

an even broader picture of who William was and the fact that like, he regales the fact that he regales you with the fact that, that William helped this kid in NA. Yeah. I believe I thought that was like a really beautiful point. And, um, I wrote this down soft armrests did we, for weary souls to lean on. Very good. That was a bar. That was a really beautiful line that that's, that's how he regarded William. Yeah.

And the fact that he wasn't there will allude to this, I think, a little bit in our interview with him. But scheduling conflicts made it so that he wasn't able to come out to Los Angeles. But I love that he does bring up this point that perhaps it would have changed the dynamic, having Jesse like a part of the funeral and honoring William. And sort of not that he would have stepped on toes, but-

to recognize that everybody does grieve in their own way. And Jesse kind of just needed some space to, you know, figure out how to let his feelings sort of unfurl. - Right. - And yeah, I just, I thought that was a really beautiful scene between the two of you. - Gorgeous. And those scenes are always, how do you guys feel about phone scenes in general?

I love them, but I always love when I can sit across from the person. - For sure. - You know what I mean? - Or at least talk to them. - Have you ever done the live phone? Have you ever had somebody actually on the other end? - Maybe once. - Me and Justin did that one time early in the show. And then you feel bad for like making somebody who's not at work have to be present. - Be present. - I was telling you that the film I just finished with Chris Pratt, the entire movie was that.

Like, it was all phone stuff. It was Chris Pratt sitting in a room somewhere and the rest of us in a tent on a microphone and our other head, trying to act well enough to give him something to act with, but not talk too loud to ruin his take 'cause we're in the same room. Like, it's-- - Oh, how strange. - The gymnastics of it are very complicated. And especially when things are highly emotional. - Yeah. - And you don't know what's, well, what's,

Because you didn't act with Dennis O'Hare for that scene. Yeah. He did his part. You did your part. It's usually our first AD, and it's probably Stillman. Yeah. Who does a wonderful lead. Which is fine. Yeah. Which is fine, but there's a reason why. Their first AD didn't get into the acting profession. Oh, well, let me... I want to say this, I think, before we go to the past, because there's... I think this is one of my first...

full scenes with my sister. I was about to mention this too. Go, you want to say it? Go. No, no, I just, I was so, I think, yeah, we haven't seen just the two of you on screen together so much before. Different ends of the country. Different ends of the country and she's obviously out on the East Coast for her weight loss camp and

and whatnot and Toby's surgery. But the fact that she just like, Chrissy, just with the emotions right under the surface and she's like, I'm so sorry you had to go through this twice. That really, that moment really got me as well. Like her acknowledgement of that and that you sort of help her in that moment of like,

I'm okay. But I'm, yeah, it's just, it's gorgeous. This first scene with, like, first real scene between Chrissy and I and with just the two of us. And she becomes very emotional after listening to Beth's eulogy about William. And it sort of triggers her own feelings about her dad and whatnot. And she feels, she thinks it's Toby who's coming outside, following her outside. And she's like, Toby, I can't talk about it right now. And it turns out to be Randall.

And she's like, Randall, I'm so sorry that this happened to you twice, that you have to go through this grieving process. And he says, listen, it's okay. You know, like, I got a chance to have him. You know what I mean? Which is the thing we forget. Yeah, he's not here anymore, but we had him. And there's a guy in there.

who's really looking forward to sharing life with you. And you don't have to keep it all to yourself. I think that's something that we will sort of come back to again and again throughout the show, is people trying to struggle in solitude because they don't think anyone can help them and sort of like learning how to make themselves

open enough to share. - Available to it. - Yeah, that. - Yeah. - Right? - To that help. - Yeah. And it's a really beautiful, beautiful scene. I love, Chrissy Metz is just, you know, it's all just nerve. - All right there. - Right on top. You know what I'm saying? And then she's, it's just her gift, right?

is there okay i want to talk about kev real quick before we go to the past because i think this is really cool he's trying to get the times critic to come to the play because he left the first time and times critics like i was there and then you didn't do the play and i don't know if i'm going to save you or what have you and he's like okay

He's nervous about things. He's relying on Soph. And she says, look, you've been a support to me and whatnot. Like, I don't know. I know we haven't had sex yet. And that's a sort of thing for you. Like, I'm still pretty good at it. Like, you should probably give me a shot. And she's like, you just calm your horses. Take your time. You're going to be fine. Is this when she brings the crutch? Or is that before? She brings a crutch to him all the way across town when she actually winds up showing up for the play. Because she couldn't make it the first time, but she made it this time.

Everybody comes to the play. He does a really wonderful job. I think Randall even tells him, I've never been more proud of you. Like you see these brothers coming together in a really lovely way. And when the play is all done, he goes, listen, I don't think I came here for this play. So if you're like, yeah, I'm looking for legitimacy and all this type of stuff. But like, I came here for you.

I found you. You know what I'm saying? I got you back. And if there's ever a way to make someone want to make sweet love to you, tell them that you came 3,000 miles for them. And then sweet love commences. That's right. And it's beautiful. That's right.

You know what I'm saying? It's backlit. - Forward straining orders. - It's backlit. - It could go either way. - Listen, it's backlit and there's music and there's just the well moisturized bodies. - Old school, 1980s. - Yeah, glowy. - Yeah, it looks good. Okay, so I wanted to say that part. Let's go to the- - That was important. - I wanted to say that. We just wanted to say this. - They knocked boots. - The boots were knocked. Let's go to the past.

We will think of this episode as before knocking boots and after knocking boots. Not before William and after William. Jack and Rebecca are going through it. So the old school timeline, Rebecca's, the episode starts out with him being late. Yes. Right? Coming home. Correct. Because you're trying to...

- Go to a gig. - Yeah, the tour, the tour. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, Ben is on his way to pick me up and Jack knew the drill. - He was supposed to be home at 5:30. He said, "No, I'll be leaving at 5:30." And she's like, you know, whatever. - Listen. - He made it. - Semantics, yeah. - Everything seems to be okay. She's about to hit the road. Things are, you know, tense. - The chilliest moment I've ever seen between the two of you is you leaving, walking out the door, just being like, "Okay, bye."

Like without a hug or a kiss. Because there's always contact. Right, there's always something between the two of them and it is gone. It's palpable and it's palpable to the children as well. And it's uncomfortable. You see Kate looking up, she's seeing it. She even says something, she's like, Dad, what's wrong with you? It is real uncomfortable. I mean, we've all been there before. Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah. As petty as it may seem. No, and as soon as I'm on the front steps, I'm like, that feels awful. Well, I mean, it's just like, it's from a distance, it seems petty watching it. I'm like, come on, someone just like break the ice and say like, yeah.

I know we have something to talk about. I love you. I'm about to leave. Don't leave without showing affection. And you live in a household where people are leaving all the time. Both of you. Just touring. Totally. But I definitely recognize that. I was like, I've probably done that before. Is it like the ego sometimes gets in the way of like,

You should go first. Yeah, like when there's the ice that has transpired and it's like well, I know I'm owed an apology. Yeah Yeah, oh, yeah, so I'll just wait until I get it. Yeah There's a one of the tools of Rachel nice couples counseling is greetings and farewells Okay, and it's and it's no matter what. I

that you you you do a proper farewell yeah even when you're just leaving for a couple hours right like you don't just leave you don't just you don't just disappear you don't just walk out and it's also but the greeting is is the real one like when your partner comes home you stop what you're doing you go to them and greet them just a little hello huge just like and and and i and when when our therapist told us about it we're like

Both of us were like, that sounds like a pain in the ass. And it is.

It changes everything. It's just- He changes everything. It's a tool. It's just a tool. To know that your presence is enough to interrupt what was happening, just to be said hello to. Yes, yes. It means a lot. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna incorporate that, 'cause it's funny, I hear that and I'm like, "Yeah, I think I do that." And I'm like, just thinking back to this morning and leaving and- Yeah, you get going and you get going and- Husband taking kid to camp. He's like, "Bye."

Yeah. You know, and you're right. It does go such a long way. Yeah. Yeah. That acknowledgement, that understanding, that like having that little bit of connection. Sure. And we see that with this couple throughout the entirety of the series. So, you know, to be 17 episodes in and have certain expectations of this is how we know them. And we know obviously things aren't exactly great between them at this juncture, but

- Even when you've had arguments before, it'd be like, "Oh, you forget where my mouth is?" Or you're like, "You remember?" - Yes. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You forget? - Like, "No, I don't." - "No, I remember." - And then, yes. - Yes. - This is a step even further away. - Beyond that. - Yes. - Yeah. - So what happens next chronologically? - Well, this whole plot line, we can get into the granular nature of it, but what I had forgotten about was that it hints at, "Oh, is this?"

Is this how Jack dies? Because he's upset. He drops the kids off. He's sitting at home. He looks at his car keys. You think, oh, he's heading to the gig. He's going to go. And he ends up at the bar.

with his coworkers. - Co-workers, right. - Yeah, for the going away party or birthday party or whatever, retirement party. - Yeah, and he's drinking. - Yeah. - And he gets flirted with by the office. - She buys him a drink, yeah.

I don't know, is she a secretary? I don't wanna-- - I believe she's an assistant or a secretary. - Something like that. - An assistant. We'll call her an executive assistant. - Executive assistant. That's what they did in 1997, right? - Yeah. - Yes. - And he lays and he does exactly what the audience hopes he would do. - You're embarrassing yourself. - What are you doing? - What are you doing? - Yeah. - You're embarrassing yourself, you're embarrassing, and he gets up and walks away. - But then he's outside.

And he's drunk and he's got the car keys and he fumbles them. Yes. But then outside the bar, he calls Katie and says, you were right. I'm going to go make it right with your mom. Yeah, because she implores him like, dad, what are you doing? You've got like...

He said the show's two hours away or three hours away or something. - Two hours. - And she's like, it's two hours. Exactly. Like, what are you doing? Why aren't you going to follow mom and watch her play? - And so a drunk Jack Pearson fumbles, drops his keys. Then he gets in the car to drive. And the audience, because now we've got the audience. - 'Cause it's also, Kate says, it was my fault that my father died. - Yes.

Wait, has she told Toby that? It's at the end of this episode. Yes, yes. It's at the end of this episode where she says, the reason I don't want to tell you any of this, Toby. Right. It's my fault. Is that it's my fault. And so we are left to piece together. Oh my goodness. And now. Was this a car accident? Yes. So here's the thing too, because for all of us,

We know, right? But for the audience, like it's so funny because you're like on Twitter watching them and they're like, oh my God. It's clues. Is this what happens, right? And we're like, I don't know.

So anything between Jack and Kate, you're like, is this it? Is this it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's funny because obviously we were aware of the intrigue around how and why and all of the questions around Jack's passing and why he's not alive present day. Yeah. But it was such an, not an uninteresting part of the story, but it's like,

It's not what this is about. It's not. I just remember in those moments feeling like, this is such a bizarre thing to be so caught up in. We're not lost. We're not like... But it did have that element. It did. But it's the lost. It's the element of lost that if people are obsessed with death and dying, it's not the death and dying. It's the how. Right. Sure. I'm not worried about...

dying, I'm worried about dying a long, prolonged, painful death. Sure, sure, sure. The fear of dying more surrounds the way it happens. And so to know, it's the unknown of the how that's driving, I think, is driving people crazy. The thing that I couldn't wrap my mind around was people dying to like

figure it out before the story unfolded? Yeah, because I was like, there's so much interesting, like...

that you're missing if you're just so concentrated on how someone passes away. But that happens sometimes. I felt that when my wife and I would watch The X-Files, I was always interested in whether or not Mulder was going to find his sister, et cetera. And my wife was like, you think they're going to get together? I'm like, who cares if they get together? She's like, I care.

I care. You know what I'm saying? So there's something for everybody to cook into. Sure, sure, sure. You know what I mean? I guess I get that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's also, we have these two notes that are happening simultaneously of like a peaceful sort of like,

"Farewell to a friend of love of completion and wholeness." And then there's this discordant note that is playing with regards to Jack and Rebecca. And we're like, "What is happening there?" So it's like, yeah, boom. You know what I'm saying? - And we're left on this cliffhanger of watching this car drive down the street and you're like, "Oh no." - What is your relationship with Jack?

I mean, to ask a blunt question, what are your relationships with death and dying? Do you think about it? Some people actively avoid it. Some people, it brings them comfort. Some people are terrified of it. I know it's certainly changed having kids. Am I like thinking about it? Do you guys? - Yeah, sure. Of course, you know, I mean, we're all, you know, of a certain age. I think I'm like entering like the halfway point. I'm going for triple digits.

You'll get there. I appreciate that. Thank you. But like, you have something to live for. You got these beautiful people that you want to see and you want to see if they have beautiful people that they bring into their lives, et cetera, et cetera. I think as a man of faith who believes that there is life after life and there is connection that is there, like, I don't fear it. When it comes, it'll come. I think probably more than death itself is pain. Mm-hmm.

Like you were saying. Like I was like, oh, I'd love a nice painless one. That would be nice. God. Yeah.

If I can just sort of float out. If me and wife can have a notebook moment and we're just holding hands. Perfect. And it all just sort of fades at the same time. Great. But I'm very curious as to what the life after this one is. Not that I need to get there in a hurry, but I'm more intrigued than fearful of what it is. Sure. What about you guys? Go ahead. No, no. I asked the question. Okay.

I definitely think there's more anxiety about it for me. It wasn't something that I thought much about until becoming a parent. Sure. And now there's just so much more at stake. Yeah. That I definitely have more fear and anxiety wrapped up around it. You stopped bungee jumping after having- I stopped skydiving. All of my terribly dangerous habits have been- Sold the motorcycles. Totally. Totally.

I've sidelined. We're down to one cigarette a day. I don't think it actively permeates the choices I make, the way I live my life. It's somewhere in the back. Sure. Just floating around, just making sure...

People are healthy. Like, it makes me want to be more proactive about taking care of myself and ensuring that the people that I love are safe and taking care of themselves as well. I think that's how it sort of like manifests itself. Yeah. What about you, sir? Yeah, I think I do spend an active amount of time thinking about it.

and allowing it to bend my conscious life towards gratitude. -Oh, that's wonderful. -You know what I mean? Instead of-- There's two ways to go. Hopelessness, what's the point? This is all gonna end. And then there's the realization that this is all going to end and that each moment is to be lived as fully as possible in the current moment. You know, people say,

time flies when you're having fun, but the actual, for me, whatever, time flies when you are present in the current moment. Yeah, agreed. I love that. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's fun. I mean, it could be really painful. But I guess the idea, yeah, it doesn't scare me. There's a song by the Abott brothers called No Hard Feelings that's about leaving this world with no hard feelings. Yeah. And I think that that takes work.

Oh, sure. To move through your life without resentment, you know, without unresolved conflict. Yeah. You know, and to try and live a life cleanly enough, for lack of a better word, that when you reach the end, that there are no hard feelings. There's no like unresolved, there's nothing unresolved. Yeah. I love that. Everybody who you love

knows that you love them. - Absolutely. - You know, I was with him long enough to know that I loved him and that he loved me. - I mean, what a testament to this episode and to William as a character. I feel like he left with no resentment, no unresolved conflict. - Yeah. - We should all be so lucky. - I miss Kat. I miss Clooney.

William's cat. We forgot about Clint. Oh, RIP. Good question. Good talk, friends. Yeah. Good talk. After this, I think we're going to get Dennis O'Hare on the horn. Let's do that, bro. I can't wait. More That Was Us after these words from our sponsors.

Back to school shopping as a kid, getting like those photos, like back to school photos, going to two days of football practice. Like September sort of represents the new beginning, even though like it's not the beginning of the year. It's the beginning of school. It also sounds like September historically spells dehydration.

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Ladies and gentlemen, I have been so excited about this guest. Hello, Dennis, by the way. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Dennis O'Hare to the podcast. Your landlord. My old landlord. When I went to New York last to do a play on Broadway, Dennis rented our family his home. Is that right? Yes. On Carlton? On Carlton. Yes. Cumberland. On Cumberland. Mandy, you were there. Oh my gosh, your place is gorgeous.

Yes. Wow, what a great story. Nothing to do with me, by the way. Nothing to do with me. All my husband. Well, your husband has a chef's kiss. And such a lifesaver. We had a toddler and a four-month-old baby, and we were able to feel so at home in a new place. And we thank you for that.

But we have been dying to talk to you. Dying to. So, okay, let me fan out. Let me fan out for a second. Yeah. So he used to live across the street from me in Fort Greene. He lived on Carlton between Willoughby and Myrtle. And every once in a while, I would see him sort of going to his apartment. Now, he doesn't know that a few years before that at the Public Theater, I saw the original production of Take Me Out. Yes.

- Wow. - In this production, like I'm not a huge baseball fan, right? But it was his character's love of baseball. And I was like, am I fucking missing out? I should be watching baseball. Like it was such a transformational performance for me to realize what an actor can make you fall in love with, right? Like you made me fall in love with something that I didn't know was possible. - Wow. - So when you got a chance

To be a part of the fabric of this community, I was overjoyed. Thank you for classing the joint up. Yeah, classing it up for sure. I found out you were coming to work by looking at the call sheet that day. And I was like, get out of town. I can't believe it. Well, and for me to find out, I was just thrilled to be part of your world. And also, my most devastating and scary moment was that I have to sing?

I have to sing in front of her? I have to sing and play the piano? What? You guys are talent personified. I love the group. I love the show. I love the vibe you guys had. I love the impact you had on the culture. I watched the show, the first episode. I hate to admit that I cried. Of course I cried.

You know, it was extraordinary. I thought it was so beautifully done. You all were extraordinary. I'm so glad you guys had this as a sort of follow on.

Thank you, man. Thank you very much. We realized that we never got a chance to fully process our experience on the show and to love it as audience members. And so going back through it has been an incredible journey for us. And kind of, we just talked about it today, how jam-packed the first season of this show is with all of these pivotal moments that we...

in my mind, live on throughout the series. But your introduction included, and your relationship with William, and to take this loving...

between two men who are also recovering addicts and put it on primetime network television was not a small moment. - No, and also men of a certain age, men who were, they weren't 25 and hot. I mean, 55 and hot. - Still hot. - That's right. - Yeah, still hot. - Still hot.

and that was extra and also you know William's story is complicated because you know he's bisexual it's you know it's a different kind of story or not maybe Jesse was the one guy we went for I don't know that's a private decision on you know on Ron's part but I thought the writing was so good it was just delicious to dive into that kind of writing and

just, you know, my God, it was a playground. It was a total playground. What memories do you have? That first episode was our Christmas episode. You guys are at the NA meeting together and it's kind of almost shot like a one-act play. There was like several different one-act plays that happened together. We had, our director was Miss Hunt? Yes, Helen Hunt. What was it like working with Miss Hunt? What was that whole scene like? And can I just backtrack too? Like how did this come to be? How did you get cast? I mean, I know you're in the sort of

Fox 20th family with American Horror Story and everything. And so I'm sure you're always top of mind for anything that they're casting, but just in particular, like how did you find your way into the This Is Us world? You know, they came to me, it was an offer. And, you know, the show was already, you know, sort of like blowing up in a massive way. I was like, obviously, yes. But also I love the people involved. It wasn't just that, it was that, you know, that,

I guess any show that has theater credentials, you know, Sterling, you got theater, Chris, you got theater. I'm sure you do too, Mandy, you know, Ron's got theater in his background. So I love that because you, you know, you're going to be able to, to fit in and you know, and also I love Ken Olin. I've always loved him. I think he's extraordinary, you know, a fan of Helen Hunts, my God. So just to sort of be able to be in everyone's company. And yeah,

And I don't know, I just, I love the writing. To me, it's always about writing. You know, you read something and either it clicks or it doesn't or either inspires you or it doesn't. The writing inspired me and I was like, well, hell yes, I want to be part of this. And you, speaking of theater, you and Ron,

both come from a deep, deep theater background. Did you guys know each other from New York? No. We know everybody but. It's that weird thing where we have so many crossovers, but we never actually got to do anything together. Yeah, we kept missing each other by, I don't know, by one play or one casting session. But I certainly...

you know, loved him. I think my friend Lisa may have cast him in something. Lisa Peterson, who's my co-writer, I think she may have cast him in something. I can't remember. But, you know, the name, obviously, and just being around New York. Yeah. I will say, like, after that first scene that you guys have together, and you're so...

'Cause Ron kind of goes on, William goes on about like how things have happened for him and how he's sort of found this family, what have you, and he had to remove himself. And then you kind of go like, well, I had somebody who I was in love with and they just sort of left. And now I'm sort of left with sort of wondering what happened, what have you. And you know who he's talking about because there's a great shot. He's in the background. Jesse's in the background, William's in the foreground and William's like,

Oh shit, I should have done better. - Yeah, I've been called out. - And then at the end of it, it's just this beautiful moment of being like, okay, you're dying. I understand, are you dying right now? And he's like, not to the best of my knowledge, but that was a well, I would just like to spend whatever time that you have together.

and how does that feel right and it's such it's like listen this is what happened you're sorry i'm sorry i was hurt i was hurt let's put that to the side if this is the time that we have right now time's not on our side let us just take advantage of that and that's and even in that even that's a really complicated storyline i mean all the all the things you guys were coming up against were complicated and and you know to me

Good art, good theater solves problems for the audience or helps the audience work through their own problem. Years ago, there was a play called The Question of Mercy by David Rabe. And it was about two guys dying of AIDS. One guy's dying of AIDS. And Stephen Spinella was in it and some other guys at New York Theater Workshop. And the one character says to the other one, kill me. I want you to kill me. I don't want to die this way. You have to kill me. So the whole play is...

a question of mercy. Is that appropriate? Sitting in that audience in New York theater workshop were people who were suffering with AIDS, who were positive. There was no, there was no solution at that point. My boyfriend at the time was positive. He ended up dying of AIDS. I'm sitting next to him in the theater and you're watching this play and you're watching out, you're watching people work out their problems. And you're thinking as an audience member,

uh, okay, what do I do? And theater in that way, it gives you an opportunity to meditate on it. And that's what your guys showed it. I felt like that showed it, that it gave people an opportunity to watch in real time, their own issues and to see how somebody else is solving it. You know what I mean? A really stupid example is, you know, I have, I have a black son and you know, there was the thing about putting on sunscreen for a black kid at the pool and

I never forgot that episode because I sort of went, right, duh, oh my God. You know what I mean? But again, it was a practical application for me. And that's what I mean by the show in small ways, but also in huge ways.

played out for the audience in a theatrical way, solutions and problems they could then benefit from. I thought it was extraordinary that way. Yeah. That's such a beautiful way of putting it. It was, we got a chance, I got a chance to have one scene with you and I was just so happy, like a pig in slop. Oh,

because I'm dealing with someone who is an addict and I'm offering him drinks and I'm like, oh, I shouldn't do that. That's dumb. Because Randall in this episode is questioning, he's like, am I homophobic? Like, do I have a problem with Jesse? Like, what's this all about? And it ultimately winds up being this thing that's like,

I just got you back into my life and it seems like you're trying to like leave again. You know what I'm saying? - Sure, I have to share you. - Sort of wrestling with that whole thing. But like you were so delightfully simple as like, as Randall just sort of buffoonerizes his way through the whole scene. And then they leave, you guys leave at the end. And I was like, "Well, you coming back tonight?" He's like, "No, I'll probably spend the night with Jessie." And I was like, "Oh, okay." And I'm like,

And you're like, bye, it's nice talking to you. And I'm like, oh, it was wonderful. Just dumb ass stuff. But thank you for actually acting with me. That's really all I wanted to say. Oh my God. A delight. A total delight. Wish her more. Wish her more. A great example of what Dennis was talking about too, where the show gives the audience a chance to question how they are feeling about this relationship. Yeah. Because up until now, we've only heard of William historically having a relationship with this woman.

Exactly. And now he has a relationship with a man. Yeah. And so, all right, audience, what are you feeling? Right. How are you feeling about this? Yeah. How are you feeling about him coming into Randall's life and now there's somebody who is of equal, if not maybe more importance in his history? And for Randall's character to be able to just ask out loud, am I homophobic? Yeah.

- Yeah. - With no shame about it, like a genuine-- - No real judgment, just a genuine curiosity. - Like a genuine question. - Yeah. - No, no I'm not. Okay, no I'm not, I'm not. It's something else. - It's something else. - But it's an important question to ask.

Then it seemed like everything gets so truncated because we only have from episode 10 to episode 17. And in 17, you were away with your sister and it's just a phone call. And your last scene between the two of us on the phone, do you recall that conversation at all? Oh, God. Yeah. I was in Toronto shooting a movie that I wrote. So...

I was desperate to get there to do it. And, um, God, I try to remember, I think I did fly out ultimately. I had, I had, I flew out for one part, but it was, I had, yeah, I had to leave the shoot and come over and do it. And, um, uh, you know, the, that, that was really difficult because, um,

That's an emotional scene. The movie I was doing was emotional. The movie I was doing was about my sister's suicide. I wrote a movie about her. It's the story of my life and my family's life. And so we were shooting that stuff while I was also...

trying to like get my mind around shooting the death of William. Yeah. And so it was sort of like a, I mean, you know, in the way you guys understand your actors, I was like, okay, I have a huge breakdown scene in two days from my movie.

I have to be careful. Yeah. I got to save something. Save some of the gas. Yeah. I hear you. I mean, and you know, you've, you've always got it in the tank, but you, you, you're afraid that you might not. So, yeah. And you can't hold back. You try to hold back and it just doesn't work anyway. But there, there was that fear about, Oh my God, how am I going to deal with these two very emotional things? Cause you want to make all of them perfect. But, um,

I wish I could have, they asked me to come out and I couldn't at that point. I really wanted to come out and do more. And I asked my producers and they were just like, Dennis, it's your movie. You're the lead. You can't leave. We're shooting for 17 days. You can't leave. I was like, all right, I could. It's one of those things where when I watch it, I was like, oh, should Jesse have been part of the funeral? Like if, you know, hindsight 2020 possibly, but like it was such a quiet place.

poignant, beautiful scene of understanding that we're all grieving. You're caught up in the family's grief and you realize that Jesse just lost the love of his life as well. And you hate to necessarily always do those things over the phone because it really means that you're acting by yourself to a certain extent.

But I watched the damn thing and I'm like, man, this dude can act his ass off because it just felt like, okay, I will hold a space for you in your pain and your grief if you hold a space for me and we'll make it through this thing if you need to. It felt like if we need to talk, we can always talk. You know what I'm saying? Sure. We didn't go there, but that was the feeling that I was left with. The unsaid yes sentiment. But I also love the idea of the way things work out. Like you said, Sterling, you know,

if I had shown up and been part of the family, blah, blah, blah, that would have been a different, I don't know, like robbing attention from your relationships, which are deeper and more realized in the show. Sure. And, you know, Jesse's storyline was appropriate and great, but in a strange way, it didn't get inflated. In a good way, it didn't get inflated. I hear you. So I think it worked out

It worked out the way it should have worked out. It worked out the way it was supposed to. Unfolded the way it was supposed to. Yeah. I have a question for you guys. Okay. Sure. Love it. So, you know, because your timeline thing was so incredibly complicated. Yeah. Yeah.

Was there anybody you didn't get to work with that you were dying to work with because of the timeline issues? That's a good question for you guys. Well, that's interesting because Mandy gets to work with everybody. Yeah. Mandy goes across the whole timeline. That's the whole thing. I mentioned before, I only had three scenes with Milo in the course of 106 episodes of the show.

Right. And then there's a situation where I just thought about young William, who's played by Jermell. I don't know if they ever, they never did anything together and I never did anything with him, which I think is sort of interesting. Never got a chance to work with your parents.

which would have been kind of fun. So there's a lot of timeline stuff because you think that everybody works with everybody all the time, but because we're on these two different... Trajectories, yeah. I actually, I spent so much time around him, but it wasn't until the rewatch that I realized I never really got to work with Ron.

Really? Like we were in the same timeline. Yeah. But I was coming just on the periphery. Right. And we see each other all the time personally. Yeah. And for press and all these things and spend so much time together. But we never got to actually...

There's not a William Toby scene. You know what I mean? Man. There you go. And William got scenes with like the English chick who got, you know what I'm saying? Should have been a Toby scene. It turns out he's best friends with the mailman. Yeah.

- That was sort of amazing. Listen, this man is off kicking it. He's looking real Parisian right now with his hat, with his goatee. He's living his best life. - Where else can we see you? What do you have going on? Please tell people all of the, I know, so jealous. - Living the dream, man.

What else is next for you, sir? I am primarily a father these days. I have a 13-year-old. And as you guys know, that's a full-time job. Yes, it is. It's super rewarding and really frustrating. And there are...

parts of my anger column I didn't know existed. There are things that come out of my mouth that are like shocking to me. I had no idea I could say those things to another human being. You know? I'm experiencing that with a four-year-old. So it's a whole another. Sterling has a 13-year-old. I have a 13-year-old and sometimes I have to tell him quit being such a

Such a D-bag, bro. Totally. Totally. Totally. And you know, somebody said to me years ago when I think we were complaining about something Declan was doing, he was three, and she had older kids. And she was like, yeah, yeah, little kids, little problems, big kids, big problems. Yeah.

When you get angry, do you yell at... Do you yell in French? Do you yell at him in French? We do in French. You know what I mean? It's extraordinary. So today we were in Galerie Lafayette, which is like the big department store in Paris. Yeah. And I was on Boulevard Haussmann and we went to go buy him a suit because he's going to a boarding school in Spain and he's got to have a suit. He's got to have one suit.

good looking outfit for whatever it's Europe. By the suit. And, you know, I was kind of marveling at him because, you know, we go in and out of French and English all the time. You know, people in Paris do not speak English for the most part. They don't. Yeah. And if they do, they don't want to admit they do. Yeah. We'll just stay, we'll just stay in French. And he's extraordinary, you know, and we'll just go in and out of French. And then suddenly he said to me, Hey dad,

And I tell my friends that I'm here. They want to meet me because there's a girl I want to meet today. And so they're going to come and meet me. I hadn't even said yes when suddenly, boom, these five dudes show up. You know, his friends like found him, tracked him down because Paris is small. Paris is not a big, big, big place. And so then, you know, we barely got the suit off him and he took off. He ran off to go and be with his friends and go meet this girl somewhere. Whatever. Yeah.

But you've reached that place because with a 13 year old where peer group influence is more influential than parental influence, you know, and there's a, there is a sort of like, oh, I have to give him space. I don't want to give him too much space because I need him to know that he can always come back or whatnot and not be resentful in a certain way. But like, no, he's growing up. This is part of the process. Just make yourself available. So when he needs you, you're there. But,

But, you know, I'm also a writer. I have a co-writer, a woman named Lisa Peterson, who's an amazing director. We've worked together for years.

We wrote a play called the Iliad, which is a one-man show that I've done, God, since 2012. And then we have a second play called The Good Book about the Bible, which we've done. And we just had a third play called The Song of Rome about the fall of Rome, which we did at Charleston Festival, the Spoleto Festival in Charleston. Are those all solo shows that you do? No. No.

The first one's a solo show. The second one is seven actors. And the third one is two actors. Do you know Rachel Christopher Sterling? I don't. Oh, God, she's amazing. She did Yaya's Hair Braiding on Broadway. She did a bunch of stuff. She's a great, great actor. She did the play for us. And a guy named Hadi Tabal, a Lebanese actor, did this play for us at the Spoleto Festival in

And so, you know, Lisa and I are always trying to blog our plays, trying to get people to do our plays. So that's one thing.

like avenue I have. And my other avenue is I write, I write all the time. I've written a screenplay, um, many plays that haven't got done. And then a novel, a failed novel, which how do you know it's 800 because nobody will publish it. Nobody will publish it. It's failed. That's it. That's called a failure. However, I'm going to turn it into a fiction podcast.

There we go. So you're my first public acknowledgement that I'm going to do this. I've written 15 episodes already. It's called A House Divided. It's a dystopian political thriller that takes place in 2031 to 2055 about our dear country. Excellent. Thank you so much for talking to us.

Love you, man. Have a wonderful time in Paris. Wishing your boy all the best.

Gang, it is time for our fan segment. Now, in the beginning of this episode, Randall asks Beth the question, how do I honor my father's legacy? For days and in the aftermath of losing William, he's plagued by this question. If you have lost someone near and dear to you, this all probably sounds very familiar. And when we watched this episode live, a lot of you took to social media to share how you honored the legacy of your father.

of those that you've lost. And so we wanted to ask that question again. So we put it out to you, the fans. How do you honor the legacy of a loved one after death? And here is what you said. All right, let's see what they got. We got some good responses. Xeanna Lynn says, "My boyfriend took a page from TIU and we used his late grandpa's old cowboy hats." I love that. Oh, that's pretty sweet. Okay, that's directly from the show.

Han Hari? That sounds right. Says, quote things that always used to say and just laugh about all of the warm memories. That always feels good. Janie.Egan says, my mom was a knitter and I've learned to feel closer to her. Closer to her, but I think she means through knitting. Through knitting. I think that's the implied part. She is a...

- It's just a non sequitur. - She's a knitter. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - She was a knitter? - I did, yeah. - And I've learned to feel closer to her. - I've felt closer to her. - But I think you're right for knitting. - I think so. - So engaging in the same kind of hobbies or activities or yeah. - Liz Ann Wetzel. "I took my sons to the places my dad liked to take us camping when I was little." - Oh. - I like that. - Brooke Bauer.

Balamenti says, establishing a sign from them so that every time I see it, I know they're with me. Yeah. Do you guys have that? Have you had that with loved ones? I have family friends who have that. And it's, they had lost a loved one and right after that, they found a dime like sitting on like the dashboard of their car, like in a really odd place right after the passing of this loved one. And so they assigned that as a sign. And again, it's not...

It's not woo-woo magic so much as a tool to bring yourself into the current moment and to remind yourself of this person. Now they find dimes, which is an odd coin to find these days, everywhere. They show up everywhere. Do you have anything like that in your life? A member of our crew lost their daughter and she would say that, like, I see butterflies everywhere.

And like the butterfly sort of just brings her into that moment of recollection and reconnection with her daughter. I don't know if I have anything specific like that with my dad, but there are conscious things. What conscious things? My dad loved sunglasses. So if you ever see me on the red carpet, for the most part, I'll have sunglasses and they'll yell at me, take the sunglasses off. And I'm like, nope. It's to honor your dad? I've seen you do it, yeah. I love that.

- Yeah. - That's really cool. Well, you're a part of the fan segment now too. - Yeah, I'm part of it now too. There is... - "I'm doing the things my dad always wanted to do for himself, but never did." - Wow. - Now, listen, one of the ways that I connected with my dad was watching television. Dad was a TV junkie. Like we'd watch Barney Miller,

with Starsky and Hutch, like whatever it was, like he loved this stuff, right? The fact that I do this for a living, I feel his smile. Like it's big and broad and it's like, I can hear, "Come on now, baby boy." Like that's like, he called me baby boy. And that's sort of like, yeah. - You can feel the pride. - You can feel that pride. Unlike my son who does not want to do anything close to what I do right now. - Yet. - Yet.

Probably never will. You never know. Mom and dad, it's... We have one son who's like, "Can I join the family business?" That's what he calls acting. I mean, technically it is. I'm like, "Okay." The other one sees like other people come up to us from time to time and sort of not intrude on our space, but just want to say hi, et cetera. And he'll definitely say, "I don't want to be famous. I want to be rich."

but I don't want anybody to know who I am. There's a distinction. I understand. Fair enough. It's understandable. Fair enough. It's understandable. I want to be more famous.

Just putting it out there? Yeah. I have enough money. I'd like to be more famous. You know, real quick, while we're on this part, you guys know about my dad. I lost my grandma when I was a freshman in college, et cetera. I've lost a nephew during COVID, which is very sad. Have you guys...

lost someone close and what was the process like? I'm sure you're still in process of grief, but anybody close? - I lost some, I've lost all my grandparents. - Yeah. - I don't know if, sure, you continue to process those losses forever. I also feel like

Most of them occurred when I was very little. So I had such like little context to work with in terms of who they were in my life, unfortunately. I lost a very dear friend, gosh, like 15 years ago. And I would say as an adult, knock on wood, that was like the biggest loss of consciously trying to wrap my head and heart around that. Yeah.

Three of my four grandparents were passed before I was born. Wow. And I lost one. My grandmother is the only person in my life who I was really close to who passed away. Okay. So I haven't been surrounded by a lot of loss. In recent years, I've lost several friends who've taken their own lives, which has been, yeah, a really difficult experience.

few years. But I think that in a way of, you know, my life as I've straightened it out over the years and grown up and become a man and gotten healthy in a lot of different ways. My past is littered with unhealthy people, you know, and myself included. And

to see people that I've loved or who I was very close with, who I felt very similar to, to take their own lives is really hard to process. But it is, I think that the best way that I can honor them or the people in my life is to take care of myself and to live the most conscious, healthy life.

uh, life of service. You know what I mean? And so that, that's been the focus of my last few years, but I like that song. That's really good. I also wanted to mention my, my firstborn son is Andrew, a friend of mine passed away after college. The name was Andrew. So my son's name is Andrew Jason Sterling Brown because he didn't have enough names. And, uh, and so he's got my dad, a little bit of my dad and a little bit of my friend in him. And, uh,

- Yeah, and part of why I try to take care of myself too, Saul, too, with a dad who passed at 45, complications from sugar diabetes, having a heart attack, is like, oh, I know there's more. Like there's a longer, fuller existence to be experienced, 'cause I would have loved to have had him around a little bit longer. So maybe if I can stick around a little bit longer for these fellas and for the people who I love, then that's honoring him as well. So here, here, sir, here, here.

Thank you so much for reaching out. Again, you can reach out to us on social media. We also have an email. That was uspod at gmail.com. If you want to send us a message, how you relate to the show, what the show meant to you. Particular episodes that mean something to you. Yeah, we'll take any of it. If you don't like email, we also have a phone number. That's 412-501-3028. Even if you don't, if you just want for giggles.

So you want to call and leave us a message? We'd love to hear you. Listen to our little voicemail message on there. Yeah, we've listened to it by accident one time. A few times. That's the Emotional Support Hotline. That's emotional support for us, if not for you. Thanks for joining us, gang. We'll see you next time. That Was Us is filmed at The Crow and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions and Sarah Warehunt. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith.

That was us.