Polarization Part 3 with Dr. Andrew Serazin, Dr. Eric Marshall, and Virginia Cooper
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Welcome to Stories of Impact. I'm your host, Tavia Gilbert, and along with journalist Richard Sergay, every first and third Tuesday of the month, we share conversations about the art and science of human flourishing.

Over the last several weeks, we've done a deep dive into the topic of polarization, hearing from experts in business, psychology, leadership, history, and sociology about what polarization is, why it's grown to such a fever pitch in modern-day America and globally, and why it's so important for each of us to do our part to stop it.

We now better understand that polarization divides families and communities, diminishes our ability to solve big problems, even threatens to destroy our precious democracy. And we can also recognize now that polarization undermines the virtues that allow humans to flourish. Virtues like truth, generosity, listening, cooperation, and forgiveness.

This week's episode, the conclusion to our special three-part series, offers some good news. As extreme as polarization has become in recent decades, and as serious and pervasive a problem as it is, we know that humans are relentlessly creative, curious, and resilient.

When you pair those qualities with abundant resources to examine a problem through rigorous scientific inquiry, there's every reason to believe that antidotes can be discovered and shared worldwide. So today, we are talking with leaders from the Templeton World Charity Foundation who are celebrating the Listening and Learning in a Polarized World initiative, an extraordinary $20 million investment into polarization research that

And these three leaders will share with listeners what solutions they hope will be discovered over the next five years of study.

We'll start the conversation with our friend, Dr. Andrew Sarazin, president of TWCF, who shares how he thinks about and defines polarization. The subject of polarization is one of the defining challenges of our time. We receive so much information through digital sources, interact with digital media, and

construct our identities in online environments. And so the architecture of the way human beings get, process, and utilize information has radically changed in the last 20 years. Although the topic of polarization is not new, issues of disinformation and misinformation and propaganda are as old as written or oral communication. The real problem is the intractable differences in viewpoints and opinions

that become pathologic. And so that's really what polarization is, is intractable differences where there's incompatible information held by either party. And the normal processes of reconciliation and tolerance and resolving disagreements don't work in a way that becomes pathologic. So I kind of liken this issue that we have with polarization in groups today really as a kind of

cancer, some kind of pathology, a disease that affects groups of individuals.

The pathology of polarization creates conditions that are antithetical to cultivating the virtues of human flourishing, says Dr. Sarazin. Human flourishing is this positive set of attributes or a positive dynamic. It's one which individually and collectively we're seen to be reaching our potential, growing.

resilient to challenge, at peace and joy, experiencing joy in the world. Polarization really is an example of one kind of deficiency that can exist, one kind of pathology that can manifest itself when we are not in correct relationship with each other. You can see polarization as the opposite of flourishing because it does not connote this sense of growth and progress and resilience and it's actually an impediment to those things.

It's the way polarization undermines human flourishing that is motivating TWCF's investment into the scientific exploration of possible solutions to it. One of the defining interests of Sir John Templeton and Templeton World Charity Foundation is this long view that we have.

that human progress, the human story is one that will unfold over centuries. But at the same time, the issue of polarization today can be seen as a kind of long-term threat. You know, that the basic functioning of our society in terms of rule of law, in terms of democracy, in terms of science,

And in terms of people, real people, ordinary people feeling like they can contribute to their own prosperity and to the prosperity of their communities.

We see polarization as a major threat to that, just as disease is a threat. Polarization is a grand challenge that affects our species because it relates to how we work together, how we solve problems. And so it's fundamental, I think, and the foundation thinks, to achieving progress in many other areas.

If we can't figure out a way as a society to resolve disagreements, to dialogue well, to constructively contribute ideas and knowledge towards any problem, if we can't find a way in the public sphere or in the private sphere to be open-minded, to disagree, and then ultimately to resolve our differences, then that does not bode very well for many of the other existential challenges we face.

TWCF Program Associate Virginia Cooper, the leader of the Listening and Learning in a Polarized World initiative, is also inspired to address polarization because of the founding vision of Sir John Templeton, whose life and leadership exemplified the virtues of curiosity, open-mindedness, and willingness to consider a diversity of viewpoints without distrust or fear.

all of which are part of the solution to polarization. It's important for the foundation because Sir John was really big on truth and communication and understanding.

and polarization is a direct threat to those things. There are times when you can have disagreement, but it doesn't actually lead to mistrust or hate between in-groups and out-groups. And it's just healthy dialogue, healthy conversation, healthy disagreement, which Sir John was really happy about. Healthy debate is necessary for us to thrive. Like, we won't

if we're never challenged, if we're never wrong, if we're never provided with new information that we then have to process and decide, you know, yes, I'm going to do this.

I am wrong. This discourse has helped me to be better, helped me to flourish and helped me get closer to the divine intelligence that Sir John writes about so much. That's necessary. So we need to be able to have some type of discourse that doesn't necessarily have to be conflict. It can be healthy. You can disagree and you can disagree well.

Whereas polarization, on the other hand, it's more disruptive because it doesn't really help the situation at all. It's not healthy and it actually can cause more tension and make it more difficult to talk or research or learn about whatever the subject matter is. Cooper and Dr. Sarazin share a sense of urgency about the pervasive problem of polarization.

This is something that's not going to go away. It's a very important issue and it has the potential to become a crisis. And so if we can do something now to help impact and help people flourish in this new difficult space, it would be wonderful. I would say that polarization is an obstacle to prosperity around the world.

In and of itself, it is not an existential threat. But in order to deal effectively with the existential threats we face, like nuclear war, like bioterror, like an environmental crisis, which seems to be getting worse, we must find ways to resolve our differences. We must find strategies to adapt to a new environment. And so in that sense, understanding polarization and how we

heal polarization or groups that are polarized is an essential toolkit in dealing with the existential threats we have. Dr. Eric Marshall, principal advisor for programs and discovery science at TWCF, agrees with his colleagues that the key to solving the enormous problems we face today is to first address the linchpin problem of polarization. Humanity faces many existential threats

and many large obstacles to flourishing. We view polarization as a critical obstacle to humanity coming together to solve the existential problems like global climate change, like war and peace, like famine. These are the existential crises today. Polarization

if it separates us so that we cannot address these issues, then becomes part of what we call the critical path. It is in the way of us flourishing. It's in the way of us solving the existential problems that we face today. TWCF is ambitious in the size and scope of the polarization initiative, says Dr. Marshall. What we don't know

is how polarization affects people in different cultures around the world. And that's one of the things that we really hope to support research to help us better understand so that we can combat polarization that becomes an obstacle

around the globe, not just here in the US or in Europe, but everywhere. Dr. Sarazin and Cooper agree with Dr. Marshall about the value of exploring potential solutions to polarization through a global perspective. Our experience as humans is extraordinarily diverse across the globe. Histories are diverse, cultures are diverse, religious practices,

the kinds of environments that human beings have thrived in really know no bounds. And so I think one of the amazing examples and one of the amazing things we can do as a foundation is to expand outward from a particular perspective

in rich countries or in developed countries and learn about how other societies grapple with this issue. So taking it as a given that the information architecture, the kinds of ways in which people get information has changed rapidly, but the responses to those changes

are diverse across the world. And so we look forward to finding those examples of societies who are managing this transition effectively and what we can learn about that to create solutions which are more universal. We want to really make sure that we're having a global impact, so we don't want to just focus

on countries in the Western world. We want to look at polarization in the majority of the world because it's important there too. It's just not the democracies of the West that are being challenged, but you're also having issues in Latin America and Africa and Asia where we have these situations as well because the internet is around the world. Social media is around the world. Political discourse is all around the world. And so our focus should be all around the world. So it's very important to us.

Digital technology is one of the main drivers of contemporary polarization, says Cooper. Polarization has always been there, but just the sheer amount of information that we now have makes it really hard to discern between what is true and what is not, especially with the way the algorithms on the Internet work, from social media to your Google search. It shows you what you look for. The Internet can really...

segment you so you don't get everything. The internet can still send you 10,000 links based on what you want to see. And so it can create, you know, for a better word, a bubble where you only see what you want to see, which can cause you to become more polarized because you're always just getting reaffirmed in what you believe. But Cooper sees enormous power and potential in TWCF's unique approach to research, and she's confident about applying it to the Listening and Learning Initiative.

Open science is the sharing of science. So the sharing of data, the sharing of protocols, the sharing of research papers and outputs, the sharing of

methods, all of this. So open science encompasses everything that has to do with being very open and transparent with your research. It does differ from the traditional way and we want to collaborate more than we want to compete. And open science allows us to do that a lot better than traditional funding mechanisms. We realize that open science and collaboration will be one of the best ways that we can really help to landscape this space, get rid of some of the gaps, tackle more of our challenge statements,

around researchers not talking to each other or outdated funding mechanisms. So open science helps to lead us into this space because, you know, if we can make sure everybody's collaborating, then the data shares and it becomes more efficient. Dr. Sarazin hopes that TWCF's investment into open science research around polarization will offer not just a greater amount of information, but ultimately wisdom.

Information is a central feature of any living system, and human groups is one of those. You know, cooperation is an information management strategy where groups of individuals respond to some kind of outward set of conditions.

They process information in a way that allows for that group to cooperatively solve a problem and produce an outcome. Just like information theory has been very powerful in computer science, in environmental science, in medicine. It should be no different for the study of polarization and collective behavior. While information and access to information is unlimited,

Knowledge, true knowledge, which is sort of the integration of different pieces of information in some kind of architecture that makes sense, is more limited. And wisdom, which is the combination of different kinds of knowledge to produce right action, is almost non-existent. So really the question becomes how do we set up

our society in individuals and in groups to process this seemingly endless amount of information in ways which is ultimately productive for human progress. TWCF's revolutionary approaches to information sharing and interdisciplinary study have proven to be successful strategies in past projects. So both Dr. Marshall and Dr. Sarazen are eager to apply them to the complexity of polarization. It affects people

from a biological basis. It affects them from a humanistic perspective, a religious perspective. Humans don't distinguish between those. So that Templeton World Charity Foundation looks at all aspects of these. And we encourage conversations between philosophers and neuroscientists and social psychologists and political scientists. The issues of our time

are multidisciplinary. They don't observe scientific and humanities discipline boundaries. They involve everything. They're physical, they're social, they're psychological, they're biological. The basis of our real issues, human issues, society's issues, are multidisciplinary. So even though it can be difficult

Templeton World Charity Foundation supports interdisciplinary, multidisciplinary work to bring different viewpoints together so that we can truly understand the issue

as it is, as opposed to through narrow glasses. I think one thing the Foundation is really, really good at is thinking really hard and in deep ways about an issue or a problem and bringing different perspectives together. So historians, computer scientists, animal behavior, psychologists, mathematicians, philosophers together

is a common theme we've seen in many, many different of our most successful programs. You know, 20 years from now, we really have this robust evidence base about how human groups fall apart and how polarization is an example of this pathological state of group behavior and suggesting real strategies to knit that back together.

Cooper says TWCF's approach to problem solving sets it apart from other funders, even if those organizations are focused on the same problem. Our focus on discovery and really looking at

finding and discovering new mechanisms, new innovations, new tools. What is polarization? How does it work? How do we solve it? Another thing that I think separates us is that we're focusing on polarization as a topic and not one particular polarizing topic. We're looking at more so character virtue building instead of trying to be restrictive.

And so I think those all kind of separate us from other funders in the space. We also want to look at the virtues. We want to look at things that can help

people flourish in this space, in this increasingly polarizing world that we live in. And we want to help people flourish. We want to help increase character virtues, help them to listen in this space, versus looking at just saying the science of it. The Listening and Learning in a Polarized World title really helps tie together the core values of the initiative and really ties into the core values of the foundation and Sir John.

Dr. Sarazin agrees with the importance of focusing on virtues, especially that of listening to solve the polarization crisis. So one of the areas, of course, that was near and dear to the hearts of Sir John Templeton, as well as myself, is the topic of listening. Listening is the human behavioral element.

of not only sensing the presence of somebody, the humanity of somebody, and then also changing your perspective based on what is said. So it has an element of solidarity about being present and attentive to another person, which is as important as any kind of information flow or content downloading that exists. So something like listening as a key right, an obligation in our society and emphasizing that

based on good knowledge of collective behavior is an essential thing for us. If you can listen well and you can make the person that you're speaking with feel heard, even though you may walk away not coming to agreement, you may walk away in a better position and feeling better about the other party than when you first joined there.

And so virtues like listening and virtues like empathy, we believe, will help us to get through the situation where we're going to have a lot of varying opinions in a space where we don't actually hate each other at the end or we don't have so much animosity.

Another aspect of it is that these character virtues can help us be more diligent. So diligence is a character virtue in where we can look out for misinformation or disinformation. We can learn where to put our trust and how.

In order to explore what other solutions to polarization, like listening, might be uncovered, Dr. Sarazin, Dr. Marshall, and Cooper are asking questions about its effects on individuals, communities, and nations. What kinds of interpersonal relationships fall apart? What happens to trust? What happens to self-censorship? What are markers of polarization? And are there different kinds of markers in different kinds of groups, whether that's

cultural factors or geographic factors that create that typology or a broad suite of different kinds of polarization. So you can imagine a kind of landscape or map or broad understanding of different kinds of polarization that exist

When you have this range of factors that are at play with a polarized group, you deploy this resource. And so it's sort of taking this kind of like precision medicine approach where you have a diagnosis and you have a precise solution that has been developed for that specific situation. When we talk about the mechanisms of polarization, we're looking at the underlying mechanisms.

What's there at the level of the individual, their psychology, how they're thinking about things, how they're behaving, how they're feeling? Also looking at social systems, how do they interact? How do they affect one another? And even at the biological level, how does our innate biology, our neurobiology affect our disposition to polarization? Some of the biggest questions here are

What drives groups of people to divide into tribes and to begin to hate one another and not collaborate? And what drives people to listen to each other, to learn together, not only in spite of the differences, but also fueled by those differences? What does the world look like where

the divisions between us actually help us thrive and flourish as opposed to break us apart.

From the macro level, we're looking at biases and we're looking at how neurons fire and we're looking at heuristics and what makes us susceptible to polarizing information. Then on a large scale, how do democracies handle information? What are threats to the democracies and how is it in terms of misinformation, disinformation? So information is a common thread across all of these spaces.

What will success for TWCF look like in the Listening and Learning in a Polarized World initiative? Dr. Marshall says, Success in this project, first on a five-year basis, is that the research base has now incorporated an understanding of the basic mechanisms of polarization in a global context, that we know how to measure it,

and predict what's happening, where, and the trajectory it's taking. And that it has affected our ability to create innovations, interventions, to solve polarization problems. That's the five-year outlook. Success in the long run is that we have more peace, we have more collaboration, and competition of ideas drives progress.

of a humanity that flourishes globally. No matter where you are, you can be happier, healthier, and at peace.

For me, success will be about twofold. So the first fold would be that we would have a more collaborative space. So people would be talking to each other. Some of those knowledge gaps would have been filled and we have good science that's continuing. The second one is that we would have found some type of innovation or some type of discovery that will help humans to flourish in a world of increase in polarization.

We're hoping that we would be able to find tools and find solutions. You know, let's say an app that helps you scan and screen what you're receiving in terms of like, is it misinformation or not? It could be a webinar or workshop to help you to listen better or to help you identify when you're being given false information or

how to have conversations with people on a polarizing topic that are on the opposite side of the view. It could be, you know, finding and discovering interventions that can help bring people closer to the middle.

And so these are the types of tools and interventions that we're hoping that we can discover and that could have major impact. We also want to connect that using robust research practices and translate that into innovations, tools and solutions that can produce positive outcomes. And so in other words, moving from sort of this state of dysfunction, that is polarization, towards a state of flourishing using practical tools and solutions.

I find great comfort in Dr. Sarazin's hopeful vision that with a commitment to research and discovery of tools that can dispel polarization, we can and will indeed move through and out of it.

The animosity and antagonism inherent to polarization are painful for everyone and destructive to everything we hold dear. Imagine if we had the practical tools and solutions to polarization, what we could find on the other side. Collaboration, respect, appreciation, warmth, creativity, innovation, discovery, even peace.

I'm grateful that TWCF is making an investment to help develop innovative answers. And I look forward to returning to the Listening and Learning in a Polarized World initiative over the next months and years so we can hear about what is being discovered that will bring to fruition a better way of life.

This has been the Stories of Impact podcast with Richard Sergei and Tavia Gilbert. Written and produced by TalkBox Productions and Tavia Gilbert with senior producer Katie Flood. Music by Alexander Felipiak. Mix and master by Kayla Elrod. Executive producer Michelle Cobb. The Stories of Impact podcast is generously supported by Templeton World Charity Foundation.