The Cult of K-Pop
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The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. You never know where your mental state will be. Like, you don't know how deep you'll go and you won't even realize it. Like, I think that's why it's considered a cult, right? Like, you could call it a cult is because you don't know how psychologically or even financially deep you'll be when it comes to getting into K-pop.

I know. I am stressed even just talking about it. Yeah.

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montell, author of the books Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and the forthcoming The Age of Magical Overthinking. Every week on the show, you're going to hear about a different group or guru from the cultural zeitgeist, from MLMs to momfluencers, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? ♪

And if so, is it a live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out level cult? After all, the word cult is up to interpretation. Let me reiterate, the word cult is up to interpretation. When I say K-pop is a cult-followed industry, don't come for me, don't come for my neck.

I sing awkwardly when I'm scared. And I'm scared today because the cult of the week is K-pop. And those fans, they are intense. They care a lot. I don't even sound this nervous when I talk about Scientology. Let me set the scene. I have never had a more difficult time finding a guest host for an episode of Sounds Like a Cult than I had for this episode. I don't know.

I was like shooting off DMs by the dozen, contacting K-pop reporters, K-pop podcast hosts, K-pop documentary filmmakers. Oh my God. I was emailing...

sociology and pop culture professors at literal universities, people who don't even have Twitter or Instagram being like, will anyone, will anyone be brave? Be brave. We don't even have to be roasty. We don't even have to call K-pop a cult. I mean, sort of. Anyway, everyone was nervous. Everyone was backpedaling. Everybody was circumventing. Or

I was just getting ghosted. It was nuts. But I finally found someone very, very brave to join me for today's analysis who got the vibes, who was like, tee hee hee hee hee. Yes, I am a K-pop stan, but I also acknowledge it can be pretty culty. And I'm down to discuss that with you.

Stick around because we're going to get into it with my very special guest, Lai Francis, who is a journalist, a producer. She writes about music and primarily about K-pop. So she is very educated in the space. I'm not. See, I'm already scared because I know K-pop.

just from perusing the interwebs about K-pop culture, that she who dares even breathe the word K-pop without having spent 10 years in this quote-unquote cult world

And I mean that in a cute way. You need to hide your kids, hide your wife, lock your door because the stands will come for you. Hide your kids, hide your wife. And I get that. Listen, I have said this before on this show. I wish I cared about something in this world.

as much as stans care about the artist that they love. I fear them, I respect them, and that fear is what tells me that K-pop is something that needs to be covered on this podcast. It's also been a highly requested topic for years. We've covered music fandoms before on this podcast, the Cult of Taylor Swift. Obviously, we had a whole different episode on the Cult of Celebrity Stans.

K-pop is a completely different beast. It operates in a completely different way to the American music industry, and the cult of the fandoms are an entirely different culture from American music fandoms as well. I wouldn't dare speak with authority on the subject matter. Lai Francis is going to help us understand K-pop. It sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, how bad is it? But first, before we welcome her onto the show, I wanted to give a little bit of background for those who have maybe...

I've only been vaguely exposed to the cult of K-pop. If you're already an expert, come back in five minutes. Go listen to like a BTS song and a half. This won't take long. This little bit of explanation is just to get my outsiders a little bit more on the inside of the cult of K-pop.

K-pop, short for Korean pop, obviously, is a music genre industry that has experienced some of the most explosive growth the music industry has ever seen for a genre. K-pop could be described as a sort of maximalist dreamland filled with vibrant colors, high concept

performances, melodies so catchy they will haunt you in your sleep, choreography so snatched no one is missing a damn beat, larger than life personas. It's like the most optimized form of pop you could imagine. Over the last decade, it has gained massive global recognition that has elevated K-pop idols, as they're called, okay, already using the language of religion, that has elevated these K-pop

idols to godlike status for better and for worse. According to a Vox piece titled How K-Pop Became a Global Phenomenon, K-Pop's rise to global domination sorry

doing my own sound effects, can be traced back to 1992, my birth year, hello. And it's kind of nuts how rigidly hierarchical and ritualistic and dogmatic the cult of K-pop became so quickly. This Vox article goes on to explain that K-pop idols are inducted very early on, around only age

10, 11, or 12 aspiring idols, literal children, will go through these highly competitive auditions. And from there, music studios will induct talented all-star kids into the whole K-pop regime.

K-pop then takes over these kids' entire life. From a very young age, they learn how to modify their public behavior and prepare for a life as a pop star. It almost reminds me of the cult of the royal family, which, of course, you're born into or you marry into. But there are

such extraordinary protocols that you can't deviate from or everything could like crumble down around you. These K-pop trainees spend hours in daily rehearsals. Some kids gain fan followings before they even officially debut. And this is a piece of terminology that I didn't even know until I started looking into this topic. There's a whole roster of

vocabulary terms for the cult of K-pop. And then when these kids are old enough, if they're one of the lucky, lucky, lucky, chosen, enlightened few, studios will place them into an idol group or sometimes they'll even launch them as a solo artist.

As you can imagine, these studios become breeding grounds for predatory behavior and harassment from studio executives. I learned about this in this Vox piece as well. Actually, to the point where in 2017, multiple K-pop studios agreed to contract reform because exploitation and harassment was getting so egregious.

And yet there is still so much cultish harm and psychological turmoil that goes on. Some K-pop stars have even gone so far as to take their own life due to a complex combination of extremely culty factors, including the pressures of studio culture in combination with, frankly, impossible expectations from stans. Death is like kind of as bad as it gets in terms of worst case scenarios for a cult. And yet there's

The intense, hyper-isolated life of a K-pop idol is coveted by thousands upon thousands of teens and preteens. And again, the phenomenon has extended globally. According to a piece in Yahoo Finance, in 2023, it was reported that the K-pop industry was worth a whopping $8.1 billion. ♪

According to an NPR feature with the host of K-pop Dreaming, Vivian Yoon, these management and entertainment labels and companies are like setting out to take over the world to the point that they'll even cast non-Korean idols in K-pop groups to make them more appealing to whatever market they're in. It's just the kind of like can't stop, won't stop opportunism that you see in more destructive kinds of cults.

And like, let me level with you. The reason why I sound so fucking skittish as I explain all of this is because of the cult of the fandoms. I've learned that at K-pop stands exhibit a level of dedication and intensity that really sets them apart. According to another Vox article titled A Beginner's Guide to K-pop, some of the most common cult

aspects of K-pop fan culture include the intense direct interactivity between idols and their fans. The industry puts incredible pressure, like unparalleled, unprecedented pressure on K-pop groups to chart amazingly well, to build, to grow,

grow to beat out all the other groups. And that sense of war-like fanaticism and competition extends to the fan behavior naturally. K-pop fan communities can be extremely competitive with each other. Some fans pit individual members of groups against one another. Others campaign for their favorite group to receive better treatment from a studio if they feel that the studio isn't giving the group enough love.

I mean, to imagine fans being like so involved with the business aspect of their favorite entertainers is wild to me. And it's another reason why the fandom here can be pretty intimidating because the way that fanaticism manifests on social media lends itself to these kind of like self-starting crusades as fans seek out new methods to help their favorite idol group become the best.

Crusades really is the right word for it because as certain findings demonstrate that in South Korea, much like in the U.S., the percentages of people who identify as explicitly religious are declining. They have to put their sort of like cultish belief somewhere. Yeah.

And the K-pop industry showing up being like, if you need a cult, we're right here. Now, this atmosphere can be daunting, to say the least. But of course, K-pop provides people with incredible benefits, with identity, meaning, belonging, ritual. During the pandemic, there was an instance when thousands of fans donated their refunded concert tickets to support COVID relief.

You know, I believe that K-pop fandoms can be a really transcendent thing. At the same time, it's culty as fuck. It's parasocial as fuck. It can be dangerous for the idols. I'm scared right now. And for that reason, we have to ask the question, this group sounds like a fucking cult, but how bad is it? To help us answer that question today, I am so excited to welcome our very special guest,

K-pop reporter, expert, and stan herself, Lai Francis. Oh my god, thank you so much for joining the pod! Thank you for having me! This is so exciting. I'm already singing. I sing my sentences too, so we'll get along just fine. Oh, here we go. Musical episode! If you're cringed out. Okay, okay. Before

before we get fully into it, could you please introduce yourself and your work to our listeners and how you're connected to the cult of K-pop? Oh, okay. Hi, everyone who's listening. I'm Lai Francis, and I've been covering K-pop since I graduated college, but I actually started during the days of Tumblr, which was like early 2010s. Wow, that sounds a long time ago. It was. It's

so weird whenever I hear someone's like, yeah, this K-pop song came out 15 years ago. I'm like, no, it didn't. That came out like eight years ago. I was like, no, no, no, no. It came out in 2007. I'm like, well, damn it. The pandemic totally threw everyone off. Fully, but also trends move so much faster now in music and otherwise that it's

it's really, really hard to know how a benchmark is marking time. Yes, 1000% I agree. So you've seen like a full generation of K-pop. I want to ask though, like when trying to find a guest for this episode of Sounds Like a Cult, never had a harder time. I have never had more people be like, I don't know. I don't know.

I don't think that it's right for me to cover this topic or like, I don't think it can be covered. Really? Yes. Like I've never had such a hard time. I was surprised when you got to me because I was like, I have other colleagues who are like just probably smarter than I am. Huh?

Honestly, they've been in the game as long as I have, but they're way more up there than I am. I was surprised by people's trepidation. What's your take on that? Why do you think that so many people were reticent to talking about K-pop in the context of cultishness, even in a lighthearted way?

I think it's because they just don't want to offend the fandom because it's such a complex world when it comes to K-pop. It's like for us, I actually was talking to someone for their thesis paper in college the other week.

and it was a good angle and people in my position or in similar positions especially covering k-pop in the western hemisphere that there is pressure from the fans pressures from the label pressures from the artists themselves and pressures from the publication that you may be working with and of course yourself as a fan to professional so i could see why there's hesitancy of course but when you see it on social media k-pop stands are everywhere and when you have

that type of platform and you have those followers and those readers and those dedicated fans, it could be quite intimidating to put yourself out there. But for me, it's like I do this because a little bit of backstory. I obviously grew up as this Asian-American girl with no role models. There was Mulan, but she is not real, right? We know that.

So I was like, girl, if she was real, I would be kicking ass everywhere. But this is where the fact is like, I got into K-pop because I ended up loving the female soloists and the girl groups. And when you think about K-pop, like the iconic girl group you think of is either Girls' Generation, 2NE1, Wonder Girls, which are second generation icons and BoA. And I was like, okay, you know what? I like this. I want to uplift these voices. I'm not Korean myself, but I'm Filipino American.

But, you know, just having this catchy, good hearted, fun music with these great concepts, I wanted to uplift these voices. And then after that, you know, I just dove into everything else. So as I was getting deeper and deeper into it, I was like, you know what? Once I got into college, I decided like, you know, I'll take up journalism. I'll take a production. I want to actually like go on this path where I could try and be a platform and share the voices of these artists that

are of Asian descent. I think what you're getting at is very interesting because from what I understand as a total outsider, like I have listened to K-pop, but I'm not in the fandom. I've only like dipped a toe in understanding it. I've watched like a Vice documentary and, you know, clicked around the internet.

But it's so true that like on the outside, K-pop is so empowering and wholesome. It's like as bubblegum pop as it gets. And yet under the surface, it's so fanatical. And there's such a sort of us versus them mentality sometimes. And it gets really intense and really intimidating. And that juxtaposition of like something so upbeat and

And then something so sort of like maybe dark and scary is, I think, part of what makes this cult so unique. So I'm wondering just first off, when I say the cult of K-pop, like what comes to mind for you? When I think of the cult of K-pop, I call it the black hole of K-pop. Because once you dive into it, there's so much involved when it comes to K-pop and it

actually is a really great expansion of showing Korean culture. It all starts through a catchy riff or a dance challenge or someone looking so fine in front of the camera. It could be any of those three and those are your entry points. That's the hook. Yeah, you get hooked from that and then it makes you want to learn more because it's totally different to the type of

So what I'm understanding is, I know it's very different, but not in terms of the way that you're seeing it.

entirely dissimilar to the sort of like cinematic universe that Taylor Swift has created. This whole world that you can immerse yourself in and that can really take over like every hour of your entire day if you let it. The universe of K-pop or the black hole, as you say, is so limitless.

It's so expansive. There's so much to learn and there are so many tentacles to follow or other galaxies to explore that it really can occupy all of your time. And there's probably a hierarchy of fandom that develops there because the people who've dedicated all of their time and know the most could

could potentially feel a sense of superiority over those who know less, just because of the sheer amount that there is to know. Is that accurate? Yeah! Actually, when I got into K-pop, there wasn't really much of a presence for social media yet.

There was Twitter. I was part of a Girls' Generation forum called Sochi-fied. And that was actually one of the best ways to gather fans and just like, you know, do projects, send out fan letters and all that stuff. And then once social media got involved, it's like you create all these big accounts that are either just doing translation updates or doing photo updates. Like just fan accounts that grow their own content.

cult followings kind of thing. Yeah, and it's pretty crazy how these accounts that actually don't have a face to them but the member themselves on their profile pics gain massive amount of numbers just because they are sharing that type of content. This is so interesting and I like, oh my god, I don't even know where to begin because I have so many questions. There's a lot to unpack here. There's so much to unpack, but a lot of fandoms have gotten more intense because of social media. Oh yeah, for

for sure. There was always fanaticism for like the Beatles or the Grateful Dead. People felt extremely emotionally, spiritually connected to these music artists. But something that I think prevented them from getting like toxically culty

was because you were going to these shows in person, recognizing the humanity of your fellow fans. So even if they didn't know as much as you, even if they had different opinions about different artists or sects of the fandom as you, you were sharing in this collective experience of like worshiping the person on stage.

But because of the sheer size of the K-pop world and because everyone is so disconnected on social media, it allows people to notice the differences in the different sects of the fandom without that social glue of connecting in person. And I feel like that's

that is a recipe for making things intense and culty in a bad way. Yeah. Could you talk about some of the different sects that exist in the K-pop fandom? And what are like the main denominations, would you say? There's a lot.

But to TLDR, because a lot of the fans are so international and K-pop is such a global way, a lot of these fans are consuming the content that's obviously available to them online. Now, a good number of fans become so parasocial with these artists because of just the way that idols are being marketed.

K-pop idols themselves are being marketed as someone's ideal type. So that's why a lot of people tend to kind of fall for these idols to the point where it could be worshipy or you know, you have these fans, casual fans like, "Oh my god, that's my son!" or like, "That's my sister!" like, you know, just for fun. But there are so many sects where it's like, you have the sasaeng fans, which is called like stalker fans.

These are the extreme fans that actually go beyond their off schedules in Korea and literally stalk them. Sometimes they know their phone numbers. Sometimes they know where they live. Sometimes they send death threats because their main point is because they want to be remembered as something. So that is called sasaeng.

fans, which is creepy. There are so many instances, especially the second generation K-pop, where someone or two or three idols that I remember actually received letters written in period blood. Oh, okay. Blood sacrifice. Yep. It's...

Giving clothes. There is that. And there is also someone who tried to poison an idol with glue. And then another one that got into a car accident. And someone who tried to grab a girl group member off the stage. Mid-performance. There are so many instances of that.

Okay. So there's a point where like psychologically, emotionally, you're conflating your adoration of this person with the opposite end of the emotional spectrum with like the desire to harm. It reminds me of cute aggression when you like see a little cute little chick and you just want to like fucking squeeze it. You just want to like...

like heard it. Like, it's so fluffy. I'm going to die kind of thing. Yes, kind of, but times 100. It's like an extreme version of that. So that's one part of what the fandom is. Unfortunately, there are fans, especially I think now even here where they're buying information of these idols. Sometimes there's airline carriers that sell the information to fans that tells you what their flight is, where they're seated and so on and so forth.

Which is so creepy. And there actually has been a recent stalker story that happened a couple years ago of someone who decided to move to Korea. And he was so delusional that he thinks that the girl group member is in love with him and they've never met before. Right. So that's the sasaeng world.

Then you have like the keyboard warriors. They will stand their ground no matter what and say, "My fave is better than yours." No matter what. They will say, "Your faves are flopping. Mine is the best." They have that mentality as well. Because they're so immersed and they believe that their idol is the only idol. Those are the fans that think multi-fandom doesn't exist. Because in K-pop, multi-fandom does exist where

You could be a fan of other idols. Like that is a scenario that is very common. But there are fans that are just solely dedicated to that one group. And sometimes instances, just one member of the group. They don't care about anyone else. Wow. Okay. And then you have the fans like me who just like, I'm multifandom. I love you guys. You slay. I love it. Keep it coming.

So there's that, the multifandom way. Well, it's so telling that there even needs to be a term for someone who is allowed to admire multiple different groups or multiple different idols. And it's called multifandom because in the sort of like regular healthy world. Yes. Yeah.

You don't need to have like a special term for being allowed to love multiple bands because that's just how everyone is and that's the default. Yeah, exactly. But it says something about the cultishness of this industry that a label has emerged for people who aren't that intense. But yeah, if you think about it, it's also the label's doings.

It's the artist management's doing as well and how they're being marketed. Like I said, they are being marketed as some people that could be your ideal type. And that builds a better, stronger parasocial relationships with fans who are getting into it. Oh my God, that's so sinister. Yeah. So I would love then to talk about the role of the industry, the like conspiracy of the industry to exacerbate the cultishness of the fandom. Because it sounds like...

like there is slightly more conspiracy going on on the marketing end more than in the maybe like American pop world. Yes. Could you talk about how K-pop idols are born? K-pop idols were born. Well, when a mommy and daddy love each other very much. Birds and the bees talk. So idols actually, depending on the situation, there could be different scenarios. They are auditioning.

Online or in person, they submit video if they're not based in Korea or they attend auditions that are either held locally in Korea or sometimes these auditions tour around the States and around the world or they get scouted by somebody on the streets in Korea. And that actually happens pretty common as well. So that's one way. And then these trainees, they go into a rigorous amount of X amount of time of training where they learn how to dance, sing, model, act, and learn at least one or two different languages.

languages. So they do that on top of if they are a minor going to school. So these kids are literally working hard from the moment they sign a contract to train. However, the down part is sometimes you'll never debut at all. So you could have someone, a trainee could train less than a month and will debut the following week or something.

That has happened. Or you could have someone who I, for example, twice heard the leader Jihyo, she trained for 10 years until she debuted. Wow. So she started when she was eight and then debuted when she was 18. Oh my gosh. So the people who are running these training programs really have like a cult leader-ish godlike level of power because there's no way to sort of like predict when the wrath or when the blessings will come down upon you, you know? Yeah.

And it's different from how stars are born in the U.S. because like, you know, Taylor Swift, she was like, I've got a dream. And she went for the dream. Like her parents moved to Nashville with her. And, you know, this is like the cult of the American dream mythology. But she sort of like bootstrapped her way.

into stardom. But in K-pop, you have to be fucking blessed by the industry. You can't do it yourself. Yeah. I mean, you could be blessed because you have either the looks or the talent. If you have the looks, they will train you. They will make sure that you know how to do this thing.

And if you have the talent, they're just going to keep training you more. They're going to just make sure that you are being enhanced in other aspects of your talent. If you don't know how to rap, you'll learn how to rap. You don't know how to play an instrument, you'll pick up an instrument and learn. They will make you a well-rounded artist. That's the goal.

Another thing that's so cultish about this is the level of control and conformity. Again, in other music worlds, like there's space for individuality. Yes, you hear about, you know, the label pushing you into this box or you need to be sexier or whatever. But in K-pop, it's just totally accepted. There is this one thing that you're allowed to be and you will be like me.

militarized into that thing. And it works. So who are the people in power? Like, who are these like sort of faceless authority figures? Do people even know who they are? It's usually the label themselves. So the labels or whoever the producer, not the producer of music, like the producers helping create the group is going to have this certain concept in mind of these groups.

So to break it down for you, before, boy groups would either have the cute side or the masculine side. Girl groups would have the same way too. They call it girl crush or you're cute, where it's like you have the tomboyish kind of choreography in there. You're kind of like badass and all that stuff. Those are the two things that they have.

And actually what I like about K-pop is because if your first two singles don't work out where you try out this kind of concept and it doesn't work out, usually they say the third single or the second single hits off depending on how much the public likes it. There really isn't much individuality yet until the group finally establishes itself and they win.

a couple of awards under their belt. And by awards, these are like weekly music shows where they rank number one. So think TRL just happening four times a week, but in different television stations. Wow.

Hey culties, I'm so excited to tell you about my new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality, coming out April 9th from Simon & Schuster, wherever you buy books or audiobooks. I just finished recording my own audiobook, which was so much fun.

The book is about irrationality in the information age, covering topics from celebrity worship, aka unpacking the psychology of Swifties and how our relationships to celebrities might correlate to our attachment styles to our own parents, to nostalgia, to what's causing us to enter fight or flight in response to something as not

dangerous as an email from our boss or a spell of social media drama. If you like short books where you learn a lot, but that also feel like talking to a friend, I really hope you'll consider pre-ordering the book. Pre-ordering helps authors a lot. You can do so at the link in our show notes.

And if you pre-order from that link, then your hard copy will show up signed, which is pretty cool. Again, the book is called The Age of Magical Overthinking Notes on Modern Irrationality. And for updates about my book tour, behind the scenes of the publishing process, news about my forthcoming podcast, Magical Overthinkers, and to find out what sounds like a cult topic is dropping a day early, feel free to check out my newsletter at amandamonpell.substack.com.

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Okay, it's so genius and like such a cult leader way to be like on purpose. We are going to manufacture parasocial relationships the world over and position these idols, not just as entertainers, but as your surrogate lover, bestie, sister, mommy. Yeah, you know, like,

Whose fucking idea was that? Because it's so brilliant. A lot of it is actually inspired by J-pop because J-pop idol-dom does do that. So obviously K-pop is like a big melting pot taking inspiration from Black culture, American culture, but also J-pop culture and how they run things.

So when you see J-pop idols, they always have these meet and greets with idols after the show. But for K-pop, when they promote an album, you have to buy a certain amount of albums and it's raffled for you to try and get in to meet your idol and talk to them for one minute each.

each member. That's a thing. But since the pandemic, it's only gotten way more popular because they started doing video calls. It's double times the work for the artists now. And that just only brings more of a parasocial world globally. Right. Because there really is a chance that your god could make contact with you like directly. Yeah.

It's not like praying. Like, you know, like they really, really, really could fucking call you on the phone. And that could feel like a very long minute. Yeah.

Damn. So what I'm really hearing is basically like K-pop has Frankensteined a bunch of strategies and dynamics and styles that already existed and just really like dialed them up and made them more extreme. Oh, it made them into like a whole monster. It's crazy. It's not just pop culture. This is what truly successful, in scare quotes, cult leaders do in general. Yeah. There's so many agencies and labels in K-pop now.

But whenever you think of K-pop, there are something called the big three. SM Entertainment, JYP Entertainment, YG Entertainment. But now there's HYBE. So HYBE, Who Houses, BTS, Seventeen, TXT. Now, whenever you think of K-pop, these labels themselves have a distinct sound quality.

and visual to them. So that's why a lot of fans, sometimes they are only fans of a certain company too, because they like what's coming out of them and they like their artists. Got it. So there's a lot of top-down power going on, super hierarchical from the industry side, and that trickles into the fan engagement side. Yeah. Do you know how K-pop idols operate?

are treated when they go through the training and once they're actually like famous because it seems like how could you not burn out? Yeah, so you know how we see it from the outside perspective is that at least in the Western world or the Western market the label works for the artist, right? In Korea, it's the other way around. The artist is treated as an employee of the company.

So that's one thing to keep in mind. So these idols actually have to follow like a distinct day-to-day schedule to get their promo done when they're shooting, when they're getting their makeup done. But when they are training before their debut, they get weekly to monthly evaluations. So if you have to lose weight, you have to go on a diet. There's so much pressure for this person or this individual to make sure that they are coming out as perfect.

perfect as they can for the camera once they debut and it's also just such a mind fuck because the artists and the individual themselves kind of just takes over their mental health and it's why so many people admire k-pop idols just because through that training you can

only imagine how many times that they've been bullied or not really just reprimanded by how much rice they can eat or they can't eat carbs at all. Like you could get scolded for that or you get points off taken for that. There are instances where that happens. So a lot of it has to deal with the looks, how they sound, if they're learning fast a certain language, a song, their pitch, how much they're adapting to different spaces.

they test this individual's capabilities of doing that, especially for artists or trainees who are coming outside of Korea. How well will they assimilate to this kind of environment? Once they do debut and they become successful, there is kind of some leniency there. But when you're in your first one to three years, you are being kind of monitored, I guess, to make sure you're still presenting yourself perfectly and that you're getting the concept down to the T.

Oh, man, there must just be like so much trauma because you've been like shaped into this one particular person for so long. You might feel like you can't leave because then who even are you? Is there like a dignified exit strategy for a K-pop idol? Like how do they get out and what do they move on to do? So there's something called the seven year curse. The seven year curse is that that is the length of what an average K-pop idol will last for.

And I believe it has been said that that's the contractual agreement between a label and an individual and idol. All these idols that have successfully debuted, they are given that basic amount of years. And if they want, they can renew. Now, within that seven years, if they don't want to continue, you

Usually it's because of health or something that they broke out of contract. For example, JYP Entertainment is known to have a three-year dating ban where they can't publicly date within the first three years of their debut. But then again, dating is taboo in the K-pop world because again, you are kind of known as an ideal type. You can't ruin the illusion. Yeah, you can't ruin the DeLulu moment.

And then there are moments where it's like when you are kind of in the tail end of your contract or you're on your fifth, sixth, seventh year, there are already talks about, oh, is this artist going to resign? What are they going to do? All that stuff. But this is usually the time frame where these members of idol groups become more individualistic, where they'll try their own solo projects. Will they go into acting? Will they do more modeling? That's where those other forms of training that they did come into life.

But for the boy groups, of course, they may have to take military training, the military enlistment, which is very mandatory for every Korean male in the industry. So before they turn 30, they have to enlist. So there's that too. Could being in a K-pop group actively pardon you from having to be in the military? Or no, you have to enter? Actually, it's very interesting you put that. Because of BTS, BTS is actually in the so much economic growth that they bought into the country that

that they've thought about pardoning them for a couple years or so, like holding back their military enlistment in order for them to continue to promote. However, BTS said like, "No, we want to do it the right way. We'll enlist and serve." So that's why four members are enlisting in less than two weeks. So that means all of them will be in the military and they will all return in 2025.

But there are instances where groups such as EXO under SM Entertainment, where there are some members who decide to serve and the group will still promote. There are instances where the whole group will go into the military at the same time and come back.

So it really depends on how these labels are strategically marketing their music. The crazy part is sometimes these artists already have it in their heads that they will pre-film content before they leave. So there is content for fans to consume. That makes perfect sense to me. Yeah.

Wow, that is so fascinating and just like goes to show the power of the K-pop industry on the government and the economy. Yeah. Nuts. Okay, so it does seem like there is more than a bit of dehumanization of the K-pop idols that takes place now.

by the higher-ups in the industry itself, but also by the fandoms. Because whether you're deifying someone or starving them, you're not really seeing the full 360 complexity of their humanity. There are a lot of sacrifices that you have to make as a K-pop idol, is the point. You're kind of signing your name in the devil's book. These idols won't get to see their family a lot because they're all in dorms. So it's like being in college all day. College cult. K-pop. Tomato. Tomato. Tomato.

Okay, so I have a few more questions. There's been coverage of K-pop fans creating these massive social disruptions. I was reading about specifically when K-pop fans bought hundreds of tickets to a Trump rally in 2020 so that he basically arrived at this like very sparsely attended rally.

Can you talk about any other huge impacts of K-pop that have gone beyond just the music? Oh yeah, there's so many ways. There's that and I remember in the election, I believe they were trying to turn a state blue. But that could have been they just used a song to promote it.

It was going viral on TikTok. But there are so many instances where the BLM movement fans would use their accounts, especially on Twitter, to spread awareness of what it meant. And these artists would actually support it. So whenever their artists spoke up about it, they would share it themselves.

They would share donations and links and give back to the community on behalf of the name of their idols. It's a really cool way of just bringing a community together. That's the greatest part of K-pop. There are instances where a lot of fans donate bags of rice and these rice gets donated to local towns. So it's not just on a global scale, but they definitely do it on a local scale too. Other instances is where fans donate

go to animal shelters and you know try and save the dogs and the cats that need to need homes so it's simple things like that and not just you know the political side of things they tend to do it whenever it's a certain member's birthday too that's usually the time when it happens so they do it on behalf of that member and also on behalf of when this a certain artist or group debuted wow

Everything you're describing right now is totally in line with what religion brings people. I mean, from getting involved in like massive political actions that may or may not be outside their lane to performing small acts of kindness, the whole range. It sounds like you're describing a religion, which I do think is very much what K-pop is for some people. Like even the birthday thing. I mean, like those basically

stand in as religious holidays for fans. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The local aspect of that I love personally. That's when I think like a culty fandom or any culty group at all is at its best when you're able to like connect, connect,

in small sort of tribes, so to speak, really see one another's humanity. But it also, I mean, it really speaks to the larger cultishness of our time that the lines separating the political, the pop culture, the spiritual have been so blurred. Now our fandoms are serving as a proxy for our political leaders and our healthcare authorities to fill those roles when we lose trust in those who are supporting us.

to do a good job and there can be positives and negatives there. It's just interesting. No, it really is. And, you know, I think another thing that I just came up to my mind is when, you know, if you hear that there's a K-pop fan who loves like the NBA or a certain player, like they will hype them up and make sure that player sees their presence there. And next thing you know, there's a collaboration because the fans help that connection. Wow. So like I think of this Scott Seven member named Bam Bam. He's a huge fan of

someone from the Lakers, I believe, or someone from Golden State Warriors. Something with a ball. That happened and they collaborated. And then obviously you see Suga from BTS and he's like the face of NBA. He's like an NBA ambassador now. So like it happens. Oh,

I mean, it's cool, but it's also like blind following. It's like you like something. I like something. Tell me what you like. Yeah. And I get it. I get it because there's a lot out there. And if your idol, your pseudo faux parasocial boyfriend is telling you to love the NBA, why the fuck not? Yeah, exactly. What do you think?

think is like the absolute worst case scenario of the quote unquote cult of K-pop? How dangerous can this thing really be and for whom? It could be dangerous to the artists. Outside the sassing fans, there's obviously just dedicated anti-fans. They hate them because they're just breathing. There's so much jealousy pent up in that person or this keyboard warrior behind the screen that they kind of bully them to the point to suicide. And it has happened.

Unfortunately, there's so much bullying. There's so much tabloid work that has been done that kind of affects the mental state of this person. And it kind of twists the idol's mind that, you know, maybe I am. Maybe I am that person that they're saying. And it has unfortunately happened.

one or two female idols in the past. And that bullying, it sucks because it continues now. And there hasn't been much of an improvement to how agencies and companies have taken care of it. They always say like they are using cybersecurity. They are actually tracking down who's writing it and so on and so forth. Who's kind of like defaming these artists.

So there's that. That's one thing. And it's not only that on my end as a writer and producer, there are colleagues that I've had that received death threats from fans just because of the things that they've written about a certain artist or they didn't like a certain point that they've made. And that becomes rampant. And that

as actually the fuel that keeps these fans or these toxic fans going and slide them into their DMs and say, it's like, I hope you die. I hope your mom dies. They kind of threaten the whole being in your whole career and they try and dox you. There is that doxing part of it too. I know K-pop fans have sent like trucks that just rally around their agencies, kind of protest trucks. They're called protest trucks that would speak on

on the labels and the marketing teams to be like, "Hey, you should promote your artists better." And that only doesn't take a toll on the artists, but it also takes a toll on the team that works with them. So there's that. - Oh my God, I'm so scared. I was like, my opening question is like, why do you think no one wanted to come on this episode? Now I get why.

Oh, Jesus Christ. I mean, thankfully, like for me, like I always try and logically talk about it, like try and lay the ground out and see how it goes and talk about it in a lighthearted way. Yeah. But I talk it in a way where it's like, this is why you need to understand this is why it happens. But I always play devil's advocate at the same time. So.

For sure. I mean, when I hear stories about this, my immediate impulse is to think like, that's heartbreaking. Like, yeah, hurt people hurt people, you know? Yeah, yeah. But at the same time, there has to be consequences and accountability. And I don't know that that accountability is being held. Because why should the K-pop industry leaders at large be all that incentivized to temper fandom, even if the fandom is negative? It's like,

That's really tough. Yeah, it's crazy because nothing has been done. So let's say a certain writer did an interview or they write a thing. No one will speak up. It's just you. No one else. Sure, there's fans who are helping to support you and they're kind of defending you online. But at the end of the day, it's really just you because they won't stop if you have the majority thinks otherwise. Right. The group think, oh my gosh, it's truly so, so...

So culty. And I in large part blame the internet. Oh no, yeah, it's definitely the internet. It makes the whole thing so completely dehumanized. Yeah, it's heartbreaking. That's why it's scary to become an idol sometimes because even before you debut, you will already get criticized because your pre-debut pictures will get criticized and critiqued already by people on the internet and people who are trying to know what's going on with the label.

Dude, I can only imagine the sense of isolation that they feel. The internet, it's a scary place. I mean, even just having a podcast is often too much internet for me. Well, that was a very scary final point, but I do want to transition to something a little lighter hearted or maybe not. I don't know. I don't know.

You just never know with K-pop now. It's like, where are we going? Where are we going? I do want to play a little game. Okay. It is a very simple sounds like a cult game. It's just, what's cultier? So I'm going to name K-pop and another type of fandom. And I'm going to ask you to determine in your opinion, allegedly, allegedly, which you believe is cultier. Okay. Okay. First round.

Which is cultier? K-pop fans or Swifties? Ooh, that's kind of hard. That's actually really hard. Can I say both? Sure. Is it possible? Yeah, I'll allow it. There is some type of similarities between them. Yes. Yeah, what do you think is the number one similarity? I think it's just like the surprise aspect whenever Taylor Swift comes out with stuff. Everyone just joins on the internet. That's kind of like the same thing when an artist drops a surprise teaser to their next album.

Like everyone, it just goes out like wildfire and it just amplifies. Everyone makes edits. Everyone makes like TikTok challenges. Like it just goes on. It's like a free for all. And it's the same with Taylor. Like whenever Taylor drops something, it gets so glorified. So that's just the same thing. Yes. Oh my God. It's like people on drugs, but they're just high on their... Okay. Which is Kulteer, K-pop fans, or Elon Musk fanatics?

I feel like Elon Musk fanatics are just... Whoa. I feel like they're weird. No offense. Like, they're just so bro-y, man. Like, I can't. Like, it's just a bunch of, like, fat boys just worshipping this guy. Especially with how ex-former Twitter is now. It's like, you see that coming out of the woodwork and you're just like, this is weird how you're worshipping this guy. And he's kind of pretty evil, man. Like, it's... Yeah.

Yeah, he is kind of pretty evil, man. I know. Elon stans are so unpleasant. However, are they commissioning enormous trucks to circle buildings? I don't know. That is true. That is true. I feel like Elon Musk stans are more unpleasant, but K-pop stans might be cultier. Yeah. When you say Elon Musk, I think of his followers and his worshippers in a negative light. So I'm like, that's cultier. Yeah.

That's the thing is that cultishness is totally in the eyes of the beholder. And we like to use that word as like a negative judgment for good reason, because, you know, a lot of cults are like really, really, really fucked up. But sounds like a cult is always just an invitation to look in the mirror and see what's culty about you, honey. Exactly. Okay. Which is cultier? K-pop fans or Trekkies? Ooh. Yeah.

They're both, like, cool. I mean, I was like...

I think K-pop fans. Yeah. Because like there's just so many aspects to what K-pop is comprised of. Where Trekkies, like obviously there's the show, there's the outfits, there's the behavior, there's the language. But like I think with K-pop, it's the cultural aspect. Because once you get into the music, it's like everything. It goes beyond just the music. It's the whole Korean culture. Totally. And Trekkies are like so harmless. Yeah. Like I don't want to pretend.

protect them. Like I have a cousin who's a Trekkie. I was like, you go, dude. Cute. So cute. Okay. Which is cultier? K-pop stans or Beliebers? In terms of like them calling out and fighting online, they're kind of similar. But the Beliebers are quiet these days. I don't hear about them much. Yeah, there's like nothing to happen. So I'd say K-pop.

K-pop's more cultier. Bieber's been keeping it tight. Yeah, he's been chilling. He's been chilling. He's a merry man. Okay, last one, which is cultier, K-pop stans or Marvel fans?

Ooh, that's a pretty good one. Because I know a lot of K-pop fans are Marvel fans too. Oh, is there a Venn diagram? Yeah, because in K-pop, like a lot of K-pop groups love Marvel. Okay, I can see that. There are some groups out there that kind of dub themselves like the Avengers of K-pop or they're like the Thor of K-pop or they are the Captain America of K-pop. So it kind of just has like that parallel universe type of thing. I get it because they're both types of superheroes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Larger than life. And I'm saying this in a good light. So whoever's listening, please don't come at me.

So it could be similar, but I would say K-pop is more important. At the end of the day, I would say so as well from what I'm learning so far. Oh my god. So now I want to pose to you the most important question of any episode of Sounds Like a Cult. The cults of K-pop, out of our three cult categories, Live Your Life, Watch Your Back, and Get the Fuck Out.

Which one do you think it falls into? It's definitely Watch Your Back.

Because it's like, you have to be wary of what you're consuming when it comes to the K-pop fandom. Like, sure, you're going to become a big fan of this artist and stuff, but there are some negative connotations sometimes. And that is the part where you never know where your mental state will be. Like, you don't know how deep you'll go and you won't even realize it. That's the part. Like, I think that's why it's considered a cult, right? Like, you could call it a cult is because you don't know how psychologically...

Or even financially deep you'll be when it comes to getting into K-pop. I know. I am stressed even just talking about it. Yeah. I mean, there could be part twos and part threes about this because it's so complex. Yeah. So such a big spectrum. It's just a matter of how far you're willing to go with it. Because there are fans who will dip into their savings to try and meet an artist or get into a fan sign. And you would never know if you're going to see them. Yeah.

Gets so obsessive to the point where they become a sasaeng fan where, you know, they just want to put kind of some type of harm or they just want to stalk them. So you just never know. So yeah, Watcherback for sure. I mean...

any hardcore K-pop stans are listening, it's a live your life. Don't worry. It's a live your life. It's a live your life. It's a live your life. It's a live your life for sure. But for the rest of us, it's a watch your back. Watch your back. Like freaking enjoy it. Like the K-pop fandom is such a fun place to be like bringing that community and going to concerts and just vibing is honestly one of the best parts of it. And just being able to see these artists. Yeah. In my opinion, that's the way the cult of any music fandom is meant to be enjoyed. Like,

Get offline when you can, if possible, if accessible. Go to a park. Listen to music together with a little group. Touch some grass. Well, this has been such a fun convo. Thank you so much for taking the risk. If listeners want to keep up with you and your writing and never bully or dox you, where can they do that?

You guys can follow me on X if people still use it. And threads and Instagram at live Francis. So that's L-A-I-F-R-N-C-S. Live Francis. I usually write for Uproxx and sometimes I do really big features on some artists on Teen Vogue as well.

So you could find me either or as well as NME sometimes on Kim or just writing stuff digitally. So there you go. Thank you so much. Well, that is our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty.

Sounds Like a Cult is hosted and produced by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of The Podcabin. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. This episode was made with production help from Katie Epperson. Thank you as well to our partner, All Things Comedy. And if you like the show, please feel free to check out my books, Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language.

Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, and the forthcoming The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality. If you're a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I would really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts.

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