The Cult of Catholic School
01:12:58 Share

I am so excited to tell you about this iPhone game that I am newly absolutely obsessed with. It's called June's Journey. If you're a true crime fan, but you don't like anything too violent, I feel like this game is totally going to be up your alley. June's Journey is a hidden object mystery game that takes place in the 1920s, so the aesthetic is very colorful.

and vintagey. It centers on this protagonist named June who has to travel back to her family's luxurious island estate to solve the mystery of who murdered her sister. And you participate by finding hidden clues to help uncover the murder mystery. And I love that you also get to decorate the island estate as you go, which makes the game so fun and aesthetic and relaxing. I feel like I'm generally pretty bad at iPhone games.

games, but you truly cannot be bad at this one. I like to play it when I want to be on my phone, but I don't want to be on social media. I just want to relax and find something fun and distracting. It's great for that. Can you crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.

The national sales event is on at your Toyota dealer, making now the perfect time to get a great deal on a dependable new car, like a legendary Camry. That's the car I drove growing up and I couldn't have asked for a more reliable vehicle.

Built for performance and available with all-wheel drive, you can count on your new Camry to get anywhere you need to go. And with available features like heated seats, ooh la la, and a multimedia touchscreen, you can stay connected in comfort and style. Or check out an affordable and reliable Corolla with a trim for every lifestyle.

from the hip and agile sedan to the sporty hatchback, there's a dependable Corolla built just for you. Plus, both Camrys and Corollas are available in hybrid models. So no matter your style, you can drive efficiently and affordably. So visit your local Toyota dealer and check out amazing national sales event deals on Camrys, Corollas, and more when you visit buyatoyota.com. Toyota, let's go places.

Hey Occulties, host Amanda here to tell you about my new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality. It unpacks the zeitgeisty topics we can't stop overthinking about, from celebrity worship to Instagram manifestation gurus to why we cling to astrology or nostalgia during times of crisis, all through the lens of cognitive biases. If you ever find yourself asking, what is the most important thing in your life?

why human behavior seems to make so little sense these days, and enjoy books that feel like talking to a friend, I hope you'll consider pre-ordering. The Age of Magical Overthinking comes out in hardback, ebook, and audiobook April 9th, wherever you buy books. Pre-order link in our show notes. And...

For a behind-the-scenes look into the publishing process, audiobook commentary on my last book, Cultish, updates on my forthcoming podcast, Magical Overthinkers, and to find out what sounds like a cult episode is dropping a day early, feel free to subscribe to my newsletter at amandamontell.substack.com.

The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.

Hey Sounds Like a Cult, my name is Christina and I'm from New York. And as someone who went to Catholic school for about 10 years, I'd say that the cultiest thing is that during an 8th grade summit with a bunch of other Catholic school students, the adults in the room told us that Planned Parenthood poked holes in their condoms.

not receiving any proper sex ed, 13 year old me didn't even know what Planned Parenthood or a condom even was. My name is Elizabeth and I'm from Iowa and I think the cultiest thing about attending Catholic schools is the high exit cost.

I went to a Catholic school for six years and when I switched to a public school, I lost pretty much all of my friends. My friends' parents thought that the public school kids were quote-unquote bad, so I just didn't hear from them after I switched to my new school. Hey there, my name is Tom. To this day, I have a hard time like not following rules and it's something that can like really get in the way of friendships and relationships and stuff like that. My name

My name is Jessica and I'm calling from Kansas City. The cultiest thing about Catholic school is the Kairos retreat that some of us went on. It was a three night all day retreat where we were expected to share our deepest personal traumas. There were no clocks, no phones allowed, no technology or any devices allowed. We were up all night and we were really exploited when most of us just really needed therapy.

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Amanda Montell, author of the books Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and the forthcoming The Age of Magical Overthinking. Every week on this show, you're going to hear about a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist, from ballet to bachelorette parties. Today, we're going to be talking about the cult of Catholic school to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult.

But is it really? And if so, is it a live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out level cult? After all, the word cult is up to interpretation when I say the cult of Catholic school. I was about to say we all know what I'm talking about. But this is one of those cults where recording this intro today, I really,

really don't know what culty verdict we're gonna land on. You know, it's like when we did the cult of Trader Joe's, I kind of knew it was gonna be a live your life. When we did the cult of Purity Rings, I knew it was gonna be a get the fuck out. Some cults that we do, I'm like, yeah, that's a classic watch your back. But Catholic schools? I don't know, man. We're

We're so excited to partner with Abada. Right now, Abada is offering our listeners $5 just for trying Abada by using the code CULT when you register. Just go to the App Store or Google Play Store and download the free Abada app to start earning cash back and use code CULT. That's I-B-O-T-T-A in the Google Play or App Store and use code CULT. We're excited to introduce our go-to for all things stickers and labels, Sting.

Bye.

My mom's side of the family is Catholic. She calls herself a recovering Catholic. That is a well-known turn of expression, I think for a reason.

Catholicism is so naturally and often framed as something that you need to recover from. I've been looking forward to this episode for a long time. I always love the hashtag religious trauma related topics that we get to cover now and again on the show. You know, the cult of church camp, the cult of celebrity megachurches. These are some of my favorite episodes because I think it can feel both

mind-blowing and validating to unpack some of the relatable yet fucked up childhood religious experiences that were accepted as totally normal but actually upon reflection seem like cult behavior. But on the show so far, we've usually stuck to critiquing evangelical subculture or Mormon subculture. Today, however, we're moving on to a new sect, the cult of Catholic school.

I want to thank all the listeners who submitted Collins for today's episode about their cultiest Catholic school experiences. There were so many good messages. Some are peppered throughout this episode. It pains me that we weren't able to include them all. I also got some written in responses and I actually wanted to take a second to read a couple of them to you just to wet your whistle. Whistle.

Many of our listeners grew up going to Catholic school. One listener who goes by Sarah Loves Waffles on Instagram said that the coldest thing to her about the whole system is the favoritism based on familial donations to the school. Indeed, money is the true body and blood of Christ here.

Another listener who goes by at rchelking said that the cultiest thing about Catholic school is the useless information that gets drilled into your mind. For example, my party trick will always be that I can name all the books of the New Testament in order. Thanks, Sister Evelyn. Another listener who goes by breaking with broquit, broquit, broquit, broquit. Sorry, I can't pronounce his name. At baking with broquit's

said,

Definitely weird. And a listener named Allison actually sent us an email saying, I'm going to preface this by saying I went to Catholic college. The most culty experiences I had were that me and a friend were individually brought into an office by the dean of students to accuse us of being alcoholics the first week of sophomore year. Also, I was campest, aka not allowed to leave the dormitory. Oh my God, listen to that cult vernacular. For a whole weekend for dancing provocatively around male students at a school dance.

The song in question was Get Low. Oh, now you're just set up to fail. This episode is going to be chock full of more culty Catholic school examples from other listeners and my special guest. For me, the episode feels apropos in terms of the timing because last night I just finished re-watching Fleabag season two, the one with the hot priest. I mean, it's so iconic, that Fleabag confessional monologue where she's just

pouring her soul out to Andrew Scott's character. And she says, "I want someone to tell me what to eat, what to like, what to hate, what to rage about, what to listen to, what band to like, what to buy tickets for, what to joke about, what not to joke about. I want someone to tell me what to believe in, who to vote for, who to love and how to tell them.

God, that monologue, I actually quoted it in the intro of my book Cultish because it just so perfectly encapsulates what motivates people to want to join cults, including and especially in the context of this very monologue,

the cult of Catholicism, because it's just so overwhelming to be a human. There's just so much unpredictability and unknown, and we want so badly to do life right. And if someone very charismatic with a set of rituals and a strong aesthetic comes down from on high and says, I can tell you the secrets to life, we'll want to surrender to them. And then we're almost just as want to break their rules. Yeah.

But the desire to opt into a cultish dynamic the way that Fleabag was talking about it is different than being born into it or being forced to join it as a kid. And that's what we're seeing with Catholic school. It's hard for me to imagine a little kid going up to their mom or dad and begging like, please, mommy, send me to Catholic school. I'm begging you. That's hard for me to envision being

Granted, I am an outsider. I have never been to Catholic school. My impression before looking into it more closely for this episode was really shaped by movies and TV shows and plays. Catholic school is a big part of Greta Gerwig's Lady Bird. You know, I think of the very strict nuns who maybe have Irish accents and slap your wrists with the rulers for your plaid skirt being hiked up above your knees.

It's actually no wonder that Catholic school and Catholicism in general makes its way into so many TV shows and movies because it is so cinematic. Thick. The

pageantry of Catholicism, the outfits, the Pope, those looks that he turns, the stained glass, the cathedrals. When I'm traveling outside of the U.S. in Catholic countries, I just, I love hearing the sound of like my shoes echoing in the expanse of a stone Catholic church that

played such a terrifying, God-fearing role in the lives of so many people for so long. The cultishness of deprivation in Catholicism. There being so many strict rules and rituals that you're not supposed to

question that torture you, the celibacy, giving up things for Lent. They're the sorts of ridiculous, almost impossible to follow rules that almost beg to be broken. I also want to make the disclaimer here that I see no sharp distinction between cult and religion the way I clearly see no sharp distinction between cult and culture.

There have been so many jokes that religious studies scholars have made to point out the haziness between the categories of cult and religion, like cult plus time equals religion, or a cult is a group where the leader thinks he can talk to God. A religion is a group where that leader is dead.

Cultural normativity has so much to do with whether a religion is perceived as mainstream or perceived as a cult, and certainly danger and exploitation and abuse factor in as well. But it doesn't take a scholar to know that.

Catholic schools are guilty of a lot of those things. And yet, as of right now, this time in history, Catholicism sure as shit has the stamp of mainstream approval. About one in five Americans describe themselves as Catholic. That's according to 2021 Pew Research. But so many people who don't even identify as Catholic go to Catholic school. Education is a space that Catholicism has really...

taken over in a way kind of weaponized. They've made school their thing. Doesn't that seem kind of sinister? It's not a natural fit that a religion would be like, you know what? Let's erect gazillions of schools all over the country. Let's recruit people with them, convince outsiders that it's the best education their kids will ever get, force them to engage in these bizarro rituals, infuse the kids with sexual shame that will follow them for the rest of their life and laugh all the way to the bank.

It's culty, right? Here's some stats to back that up. According to the Department of Education, in 2019, of the 5.8 million American students enrolled in private elementary and secondary schools, 36% were enrolled in Catholic schools.

Catholic schools, in fact, constitute the largest number of non-public Christian schools in the United States. And don't even get me started on religion playing a role in education at all. I definitely knew plenty of people growing up who were not Catholic, whose parents weren't Catholic, but they still went to Catholic school.

I guess they'll just take anyone's money. They don't care what you believe. As long as the check's clear and you follow the rules. Actually, quick aside about that. I remember there being a rumor in my hometown growing up that...

the Catholic girls high school in our neighborhood had a whole ass daycare in there because sex education was so non-existent and talking about sex was so shameful. And of course, like abortion not allowed that ironically, there were teen pregnancies and teen moms up the wazoo. It was up the street from a Montessori school that paints a picture behind this white fence. I always imagined that this compound behind that fence with all these teen moms and

evil nuns and little kids running around. I don't know. It seemed like a cult. It really did. Here's another stat for you. According to a 2021 piece in The Guardian titled, My Relatives Went to a Catholic School for Native Children, It Was a Place of Horrors. Moment of pause to just process the title of that article. We will discuss it more at length, my special guest later.

But for some context, according to that article, one of the primary benefactors of the boarding school system overall in the world is the Catholic Church, which is, as of 2021, the world's largest non-governmental landowner.

owner with roughly 177 million acres of property throughout the globe. Let me repeat that. Nearly 180 million acres across our fair planet is owned by the Catholic Church, who are often using it to expand their quote-unquote cult.

Here's the thing. Catholics have historically been persecuted. Even in the United States, there was once a time when Catholicism was considered blasphemous. Catholics have experienced fluctuating levels of acceptance throughout the world, basically since its inception 2,000 years ago.

We're going to get into the deep culty analysis here very shortly with the help of a special guest who knows the cult of Catholic school intimately and personally. She is a survivor of this cult. She got out fairly unscathed. Stick around to hear from my guest, writer, content creator, memer extraordinaire, Aidan Arata. But first, I want to talk about some of the more recent history of Catholic schools in the United States.

They really started expanding in the middle of the 19th century. So in the mid-1800s, Catholics in larger American cities started building their own parochial school system. Why? They basically wanted to protect their cult, their sect, their denomination, tomato, tomato, whatever you want to call it. They were afraid that

Protestant teachers would indoctrinate their kids in American public schools. And Protestants were equally threatened by the Catholics. So they strongly opposed public funding to these Catholic schools. The Catholics were like, whatever, fuck you. We don't need your money. We'll do this on the cheap.

So they started building elementary schools, parish by parish. They got nuns with no college educations to be their teachers, paid them almost nothing. Honestly, this wasn't even that different from the approach of regular public schools, which also recruited less than college educated teachers and underpaid them. College educated teachers didn't even become the norm in U.S. public schools until the 1900s.

Anywho, Catholic school enrollment reached its peak about 40 years ago. That was peak Catholic school era. But since the turn of the 21st century, those numbers have really started to decline. Between 2000 and 2012, nearly 1,800 Catholic schools closed in the United States.

There are a lot of reasons for the decline in Catholic school enrollment. For a while, Catholic school was seen as like a great option even for non-Catholic people because the education was considered superior to like your average public school. But now you've got the cult of charter schools coming in. There are

are more options, some of which are like equally culty in different ways. And also there's just kind of, you know, a decline in traditional religion in general in the United States. And so some of these Catholic schools might not have as much funding as they once did. Still, I got to say, similar to a point that was made in our Purity Ring episode, Catholic schools themselves may be somewhat on their way out. But the effect

Right.

personal freedom. The guilt, the shame, the deprivation, the flavorless crackers. Not for you. Now maybe you look back and you're like, holy shit, wait a second. Maybe the fact that I'm terrified of sex or let my boss push me around is because of all that guilt and shame and rule following and secrecy and punishment I learned was normal in Catholic school. Wait a second. Was I in a damn cult?

That is one of the questions that I was able to unpack with my very, very special guest today, Aiden Arata. You might know that name if you follow her Truly Chefs Kiss memes on Instagram. Aiden has been coined the queen of depression Instagram.

But I know her as a writer and forthcoming author. Aiden and I have known each other since college. We're getting into it, even the dark shit on this episode, but I still hope you have a laugh. It is my pleasure to welcome my guest host of the day, Aiden Arado. Hi.

Hi, this is Hannah calling from Norwich, Connecticut. I went to Catholic school from about pre-K to 12th grade on Long Island. I personally had a great experience, but the cultiest thing I remember is in maybe my sophomore year, that you were offered the day off from school to go on a bus to Washington, D.C. for free to go to the Right for Life March. At the time,

I was too young, didn't have a lot of thoughts about abortion. I am now definitely a pro-choice person, but definitely participated at least once in the Right to Life March. Hey, Sounds Like a Cult. This is Roman from Phoenix, Arizona. At 16 years old, we were taught by an adult man basically how to have sex in the eyes of God, the value of our virginity, how good of a wife we are to a husband in the Catholic Church.

There was so much guilt and stigma that was attached to our bodies. And another experience was being outed as queer to my family against my will by the nuns of the school. And it was all allowed because it was a private school and they have their own set of rules. My name is Ivy. I'm in Marina del Rey.

And I went to Catholic school for two years in high school. And the cultiest thing about it was that instead of calling it detention, their system of punishment for students was called JUG, which was short for Justice Under God. I remember my sister on her first day of school dropped a communion wafer on the bleachers and then they had a priest come and lick it off the crowd. And then she got JUG for

for that. I should always get a jug. Hey, this is Kate located in Lawrence, Kansas. I went to Catholic school for my entire K-12 experience in a community with dozens of Catholic schools. Each of the schools had a distinct plaid pattern. So if you saw a kid out and about in their uniform, you could pretty much clock which school they went to. Now, when I see plaid out in the real world, I often catch myself thinking, oh, that's Saint such and such's uniform pattern. And that's pretty unsettling.

The listeners should know the true introduction, which is that Aiden is a brilliant genius who I met at poetry camp who was...

was and is the most talented writer I've ever met. And always has been. So anyway, introduce yourself, would you now? Wow. Okay. What do you do? And why are you here for Catholic school? Hard act to follow. Thank you. You're a genius. So here we are. Smartest podcast girlies. I'm Aiden Arata. I am a writer and artist and a former Catholic school child. And

It's funny because when you asked me to do this, my immediate response was, oh no, like I'm not going to be good enough to do this. Like I don't know enough, which is the most Catholic response ever. I'm inherently bad and that bad thing in meetings, I can't be on a podcast. Yeah.

Can you tell us about your personal connection to slash experience with Catholic school? What was the vibe for you? Why are you like this now? Wow. Many therapists would like to know. So basically, I went to Catholic school for elementary school, and it's kind of like an interesting situation.

situation because my parents themselves both went to Catholic school and were raised Catholic. That being said, they both like went to UC Santa Cruz and like followed the dead and completely lapsed. And so their idea with sending their children to Catholic school was that basically if they raised us without religion, we would react to that and become super evangelical. And they would have to deal with that at like Thanksgiving 2040. So they were like, we'll disillusion them the way that we were disillusioned. So I was like, ironically sent to Catholic school. Yeah.

That is a psychological gymnastic act that makes perfect sense to me. Yeah. At the same time, I could have done without the Catholic school. Yeah. Fair enough. Totally. But it also makes sense that they jumped from a Catholic upbringing to following the Grateful Dead because now that I think about it, the ritual and aesthetic of

of deadheads not that dissimilar to Catholicism. The skulls alone. Yeah. I mean, it's all basically chanting. And also I will do the caveat that I went to Catholic school in Los Angeles, which I think inherently is like probably a little bit more lax than going to Catholic school in like rural Ireland or something. Yeah.

Okay, so there is a whole Catholic talk universe of TikTok where former Catholic school kids will direct to cam, share all of the dogmatic rules that they had to keep track of in school, including but not limited to no nail polish, no makeup, no hoops, no dangly earrings, no rolling up your skirt. You had to pay for no uniform days. Boys and girls had to walk in separate lines. They were forced to play outside in the freezing cold.

cold. Also not something you would have had to deal with as a Catholic Angeleno. But I'm curious from your perspective, like when I say the cult of Catholic schools, what rules and behaviors and traditions come to mind for you? Totally. I mean, there was a lot of the typical, you know, you wear a uniform. You're a boy. You can't have your hair long. You can't

dye your hair if you're anyone, no nail polish. I believe you could wear cross jewelry, but only if you were a girl because my brother asked. He had a pierced ear when he was like nine and he was like, can I wear a cross? And the head nun was like, no, absolutely not. But thank you for asking. He had a pierced ear when he was nine? Yeah, no, again, we were like...

We were a very cool family. It was lots of mixed messaging going on as children. Yes, you are cool. It's interesting because the things that I remember specifically about Catholic school that feel culty, I don't know if they're explicitly different from the way that any institutionalized religion or learning space would be culty. Having a level of dogmatism is probably fairly common, no matter what denomination you're in. Catholicism is just fucking weird. Yeah.

The teachers told, like, my sister's grade that they would never see their dead pets again because animals have no souls, so they won't go to heaven. Why do you need to tell children that? Also, I don't think that's true. And then, of course, we'd go home and my mom would be like, fuck that. But for me, like, the cultiest thing, the first thing that comes to mind is saying the Pledge of Allegiance every morning. And I'm like, well, that's clearly just an American cult thing. Like,

Yeah, the pledge is like indoctrination 101 in America. Yeah. Other Catholic school stuff was I do remember like we were doing some sort of writing assignment and actually our only Irish nun teacher, she was like, you're not allowed to erase your spelling errors because getting rid of your sins is not that easy. Compelling. Also in Catholicism, the whole thing is that getting rid of your sins is that easy. Like that's what didn't make sense to me. Or I was like, you just say you're sorry. Yeah.

Like, what am I supposed to do? We will discuss hypocrisy and contradiction shortly. Oh, great. Oh, good, good. I also do love and respect and am horrified by the incredibly formidable sense of threat disguised as metaphor that exists in Catholicism and Protestantism. I mean, I'm thinking of like...

virginity metaphors where they'll say threatening things to you like your virginity is a pie and you wouldn't want to give your husband a pie that had been defaced or someone had already eaten a slice. The sense of like, I'm going to break down this incredibly threatening theological matter for a child by way of like an adorable pencil erasing comparison. It's like it's very it's it's creepy and it's scary and it's haunting.

Totally. Like just the idea that every element of your life is a thing that God is watching and judging. And like, you could just fuck up in like this very banal way. Yeah. I mean, I do. I think the specter of hell is like a very intense and problematic thing.

element of going to Catholic school and sort of like doing your like children's coloring books about how and again I do want to say this is like probably true of a lot of Christian religions we're not even like that into the apocalypse by the way it's not even like a doomsday right real situation but just generally as you said sort of the white noise of it is almost like

in some ways worse. I do remember my brother's class in seventh grade, his teacher, first of all, Mrs. BJ, okay. The Catholic innuendo, always. And you're never allowed to talk about it. Mrs. BJ asked the children if like in Roman times they would have denounced Christ or been fed to lions and the children also denounced Christ and she cried. Like it brought her to tears that the children would not sacrifice themselves to the lions. And I'm like, yeah. Yeah.

I'm sorry. Being like a secret Christian alive feels like better. But also like stop asking these literal children if they want to die by lying. Did your Catholic...

none teachers wear habits? No, they didn't. And not all of our teachers were nuns either. They just wore like Laura Ashley sweater sets and like long skirts. The head of our school was a nun. And she was actually pretty cool considering Sister Stella. She was ancient when I went there and then apparently lived for many more years. So I guess she was doing something right with God. I remember like my mom has this story of her friend

coming in who, you know, her kid was in one of our classes and she was going through this really messy divorce and her ex-husband had been withholding payments and she couldn't afford the next tuition semester. And she was called in to kind of like work it out. And Sister Stella went on this rant that was like,

And she was Irish. Actually, she was Irish too. And she's like, you know, back in Ireland, I became a nun because my sisters all got married to these fucking losers who drink all day and they pump out babies. I would bury them in the bog if I got the chance, but I can't do that. Like basically just being like, I became a nun because men are the fucking worst. And then she let that kid go to school, like worked with her on the tuition. The interesting thing is,

about systems like this, like Catholicism is so large that I feel like whenever you get an institution that large, it does open space for these like little channels of pushback or of, you know, subversion. And I think that nuns, not all nuns, because some nuns can be fucking terrible. I know my parents went to school where the nuns hit them and shit. But like some nuns just do really good works. You know, I think there's like a lot of nuns that make cheese. That seems lovely. And who's that hurting? No one. Right. No, I mean,

Monkcore, nuncore, you know, volcell vibes. Like...

I love that. Balls all for Jesus. Balls all for Jesus. But when paired with a Catholic aesthetic, I completely understand the draw, especially when there's been like millennia of tradition behind it, you know, like there's like a permission structure to be independent as a woman. But I think what...

what makes Catholicism alluring and what makes it worthy of rubbernecking is the theater of it all. And I think this is what sort of differentiates... I mean, of course, I'm hardly the first to say this, but let's make some comparisons between Protestantism and Catholicism. No one's ever done that before. But I think...

I think that sense of ritual and theater is what makes Catholicism appear cultier than Protestantism. Because you said it before, Catholicism is weird. Everything from the Eucharist to the rosary to the shrines to the confessional to the like endless masses with all the fucking kneeling. Not all of this is culty in a bad way by any means. But I'm curious what you think about Catholic school. Is culty in a fairly harmless way?

And then what about it is culty in a more destructive way? Because those aren't always the same things. Well, I was an altar bearer, so I will say that is pure cult pageantry. Delightful. It's so funny to get Catholic school children to do this because as someone who was very...

rule abiding and afraid of authority and sort of kind of the ideal Catholic school child in that way. I just never wanted to get in trouble or be like, witnessed in any way. So having to like march down holding a big incense burner at the right time or holding the cross was like the big one I always made my brother do and he was always so pissed off because that was the first one that led all of the other ones. And I was just like, I'm gonna miss my cue. I'm gonna throw up. I'm not gonna be able to do anything.

I was not a theater kid. I was about to say, I would have fucking crushed that cue. Oh, yeah, you would have slayed. Like...

Oh, I do. I love the Catholic theater. It's like lots of gold, like the Pope's little shoes. It's very slay. It's a little bit coquette. I always say like it made me really good at art history too, because like so much beautiful architecture and so many literary references kind of comes back to the drama of Catholicism. Yes. No, the aesthetic fucks. Like stained glass. Yum. Yes. Thank you. Prayer candles. Ugh.

Beautiful. A little rosary moment. Also just like the idea of making like apologies. This like very like dramatic sexy thing. I love that. We should be saying sorry. There's so much tension. Yes. And the restriction of it. The restriction element is kind of sexy frankly. Like Lent. Like ooh that's bad. I can't have that. No. There are many things about it I love. Then there are the horrors. I will be

Before we say the hardest thing, really quickly, that an interesting thing about Catholicism, too, is that a lot of the pageantry around it is very early Catholicism worked hand in hand with witchcraft. Like, witchcraft was not a bad thing in medieval times, because if you are in a society that believes in demons, of course, it follows that you need someone to get rid of the demons. And so like,

early medieval witches were Catholic, or you have someone like Hildegard von Buren, who's this amazing nun who had these like insane visions and wrote music from them and had the like incredible atonal orchestral pieces. And she also like wrote a bunch of like really mean letters to the Pope and was very sassy about it, which I loved. And you know, she's like sequestered in a tower.

having insane chaotic visions and transcribing that. It's very witchy and strange. Basically the idea of more secular institutions of education, which were incredibly important and great in the Enlightenment period, pushed out a lot of women. It was really useful, but it also took power away from other modalities of education and learning, and a lot of those modalities belong to women. That is such a good point. Catholicism gave women power.

power by way of mysticism. Totally. And when the scientific revolution happened, it was great for so many reasons. We stan science. But it also gave the patriarchy a new like fancy fresh reason to exclude women because they were like, no, petty lady, there are natural scientific reasons why you must be excluded from education. Totally. Which is also really funny because the scientific reasons were like, put some leeches and cocaine in that person.

It's going to be great. And again, very pro-science. The issue is not science. The issue is patriarchy. But just the ties between Catholicism and the occult, if not the cult, are pretty direct, ultimately. And then basically, I think nuns kind of got pushed out. It's very convoluted, thousands of years of history. So the priests and the bishops and all those stuffs are men. And you can get excommunicated for trying to swear a nun in as a priest, apparently.

I looked up some excommunications earlier. Tell me about them. Oh, God. Well, a lot for condoning abortions, which we don't love. Shockingly few excommunications for sexual abuse. Way more for abortion. And then a lot of like letting women have power, basically. I was allowed to be an altar bearer, which you were not.

usually allowed to do. I'm sure there are still schools in America, certainly abroad, that wouldn't let girls be altar bearers. So I went to a pretty progressive Catholic school. That being said, there is this gendered hierarchy baked into it. Obviously, the homophobia is rampant. The whole child abuse thing, the scourge of child abuse is, you know, quite real. Or residential schools that kidnapped and abused Indigenous children in America and Canada. Like, those are all...

enabled by the Catholic systems of power and the structures and sort of like under the guise of guiding people. And I think there's something particularly heinous about hurting people under the guise of saving them, which I guess is the whole thing about Colts. I guess that's the whole podcast, but it's a bummer. For sure. Perpetual bummer, no matter if we're talking about Swifties or Catholic schools. Yeah.

Hi, my name's Eleanor from Scotland and I went to a Roman Catholic school. And the cultiest thing is that you're not given any sex education whatsoever. But also I think it's really culty to do morning prayer, afternoon prayer, evening prayer, and you have no choice. You have to participate even if you're attending the school as a non-Catholic. Hey, this is Bill from Wisconsin. One of the cultiest things about Catholic high school is I really wanted to go into film school. I wanted to look at schools that were known for producing film directors.

My parents made us on our vacation go to Southern Ohio to visit Franciscan University of Steubenville, which is a notorious hotbed of water.

of what's called trad Catholicism. And at this school, it's essentially a bubble that you go from from high school into college. So you never have to confront a public university or like real education. It keeps you indoctrinated in the Catholic ecosystem. - The cultiest thing about Catholic school was for me having to participate in confession

when I was 9, 10, 11 years old, even if I didn't feel I had anything to confess. I think one of the cultiest things about Catholic school was this trick to make everybody quiet in the classroom. We would say, "God is..." and then everyone would respond, "Love," and then, "Love is God," and then this was the worst part. "Who are you?" And we would all say, "The church."

Thank you to our sponsor, Sticker Giant, bringing unmatched quality and speed to the world of custom stickers and labels. I don't know about you, but whenever I receive like a very cute sticker in like a subscription box or as like a freebie at an event, I get so excited. With Sticker Giant, you can make your own custom stickers for an affordable price, whether you want to make them for yourself or for a startup business. You can make little stickers of your dog, of your

brand that you're launching, whatever you want. I just used Sticker Giant to make a couple of stickers of the Sounds Like a Cult logo, and I think I'm gonna give some away, so stand by on that. And I definitely think I'm gonna use Sticker Giant in the future to make merch for my new book. These stickers are super high quality. They're made in the USA. They're based in Colorado. And this company is actually the proud founder

founder of National Sticker Day, established in 2016. So it's not just a sticker company, it's a movement. They are the original Guinness World Record holder for the world's largest sticker ball. It's a sticker ball named Sol. For listeners, you can get 25% off your first order with code CULT at checkout. Go to stickergiant.com slash CULT and use code CULT at checkout to get 25% off your first order.

That's StickerGiant.com slash cult. Code cult for 25% off custom stickers and labels. Let's be honest. After the holidays, we could all use a little extra cash in our pockets. That's what Abada is good for. Abada is a free app that gives you the most cash back every time you shop on hundreds of items from groceries to beauty supplies to toys. So you can be sure that you're surviving inflation no matter what you're purchasing. The average Abada user earns $145 per year. That's just

free money and that's what i love about abata because there are other apps that just give you points that don't really amount to much i don't know what to do with complicated point systems but with abata you just add your offers in the app upload your receipt and you get real cash back that you can cash out to your bank account paypal or gift cards another great thing about abata and over 50 million people use it hello is that they partner with brands and retailers that are actually good

Like Sephora and Macy's and Best Buy. Free money for using Sephora. That's my jam. Right now, Abada is offering our listeners $5 just for trying Abada by using the code CULT when you register. Just go to the App Store or Google Play Store and download the free Abada app to start earning cash back and use code CULT. That's I-B-O-T-T-A in the Google Play or App Store and use code. Skims is creating the next generation of underwear and bras for everyone.

everybody. I was truly never that passionate about undergarments until I tried Skims. You've heard me rave before about my ribbed tank top that I freaking love and that is so versatile. You can wear it in the house, you can wear it out of the house, but I also love their bras. I was

so confused by bras and actually afraid of them until I tried the Skims Fits Everybody T-shirt bra. I swear to God, it's the best T-shirt bra I've ever owned. I wear it more days a week than I ever thought I would. I have it in a black shade. It is so cute and doesn't make me feel like a cage, which I appreciate. I also got my first ever push-up bra from Skims. They're wireless form push-up bra in the color clay, and I love it.

Skims bras are made with innovative technology to give you the best shape and support. Plus, every bra is designed with the comfiest and softest materials, so you'll feel like you're wearing nothing at all. Skims offers a complete system of bra solutions for every need and style. Skims bras are available now in 62 sizes, 30A to 46H. Believe Skims.

Would you believe me if I told you there was a podcast that was...

Haunted? It's called Two Girls, One Ghost. Hosts Corinne and Sabrina didn't want to believe it at first, but five years later and hundreds of encounters submitted by listeners, they can no longer ignore it. Two Girls, One Ghost is the most haunted podcast in America. We're talking ghosts, EVPs in episodes, spirits making contact with listeners,

Orbs, darting through their YouTube videos, and so much more. Paranormal enthusiasts Sabrina and Corinne explore the deepest, darkest, spookiest places in the world, delivering doses of research, history, and spine-tingling tales. If possessed kids crawling backwards up walls, campers entrenched in fairy orgies, and creatures chasing drivers down back roads is your thing.

thing? Tune into Two Girls, One Ghost wherever you listen to podcasts. New episodes are released every Thursday and Sunday. And now you can join Sabrina and Corinne every Tuesday on Patreon and share your own haunting tale live on their campfire stories. Be warned, this paranormal comedy podcast might introduce a haunting or two. Listen at your own risk.

Obviously, like it's a major, major theme in Christianity across the board to mistreat someone and pass it off as special treatment that you need and deserve because you're at once a sinner and need to better yourself, but also a part of this elite group and very, very special. That's found everywhere. But I've

I feel like Catholicism's treatment of it is somewhat unique. I mean, one of the reasons is that they are so transparent about and proud of their hierarchies. You've got your nuns, your priests, your cardinals, all the way up to the Pope, his little self. I was wondering how you would describe Catholicism.

the power structure in Catholic schools in particular, who are the cult leaders, so to speak, and how do they wield their power at every tier? Again, I do think that the nuns are, in our case, also just extremely religious teachers. They're sort of the first guard or the first level of authority. And then the priests are above them and they lead masses and they kind of show up, but they don't really do any of the hands-on work necessarily. I'm really resisting the use hands-on because that feels like a horrific pun. Yeah.

The number of horrific puns to be made on this episode. We'll see how far we can get before we just are overtaken by them. And then everyone else, it sort of feels like, again, this is the perspective of a child. So in my head, all of the entities above that bishop, archbishop, hope, they're all kind of there in the same way that God is there. Like they're watching you and they're big, but you don't know them. They kind of didn't

feel real to me in a lot of ways. Everything is kind of this ominous cloud of authority. It's like Santa. Like he knows when you're sleeping and he knows when you're awake. Like it's just that for every adult in your life.

It is scary, though. We do know when each other is sleeping and when we're awake these days because of the internet. Are nuns and priests and the Pope and shit allowed to have Instagram? Oh my god, have you not seen nun TikTok? Oh, it is so cool. Basically, nuns are on the internet. I love them. No, I'm actually trying to go live with some nuns for my book. I can't get too deep into it. I'm basically being ghosted by a bunch of French nuns right now. You're being wholly ghosted?

There it is. Oh, it's just going to keep happening. No, that was really nice. Okay.

Okay, so nuns nowadays really can know when you're sleeping or when you're awake, depending on whether or not you have your alerts turned on, your little green light. Yes, but I love your point that we are kind of doing that to ourselves. And that's sort of inherent in the human desire for greater meaning. Like it's really tough for us to like consider ourselves in communion with some higher power without thinking about it judging us and not just hard baked into our culture or our DNA or something. And that's very fascinating. Yeah.

Yeah, we truly are just such a judgy and also self-obsessed species to the point that we project that judginess onto the invisible powers that we invent. And social media just exacerbates that. I mean, it's really no wonder that social media gives us all a God complex, because according to our age old narratives about what God is, it's

a figure that can see everything and judge everything. And that's what social media encourages us all to be. I mean, I will say the idea of sort of, you know, the meek shall inherit the earth is a big Catholicism thing. The idea that, again, you are trying to be in service at all times and you give away your earthly possessions often to the church, coincidentally, you know, where you're constantly repenting and you're constantly trying to undo this core badness. And generally, I'm

I think some goodness can come from like the meek shall inherit the earth in terms of being sort of service oriented, community oriented, not being an asshole to people generally. But this fetishization of self-deprecation, I have personally found very psychologically harmful. Again, it's that white noise of like, you are bad. Something bad is going to happen.

And I don't know, I mean, I feel like as an artist and as a person, like I've spent like years in therapy working on like having a healthy relationship to ego or to self worth. Because when you're a little kid, and all the messaging is that like, it is ideal for you to have no self worth, that's just gonna fuck you up.

And also, you know, saying that out loud, I'm like, hmm, almost a tool to make children malleable. Almost a little cult-like. A hundred percent. I mean, conditioning someone from a very young age to hate themselves and also provide a system to make themselves better in the same breath is...

is so unbelievably cult-like and it's something that you see across the cultish spectrum from multi-level marketing to Scientology to the beauty industry, you know? It's like, here's the problem and a solution that you will never truly be able to achieve in the same breath. I have just anecdotally noticed that

this self-loathing, which is different from humility I've discovered. I have noticed that Catholic guilt and self-loathing and self-focus manifest in my friends who were raised Catholic more than others. And it is so incredibly cultish when you break it down. I'm wondering what were some of the ways in which that self-loathing was instilled

in you through the like curriculum or liturgy of Catholic schooling? Okay, honestly, my like most traumatic Catholic school memory, I was such a little rule follower that I was in first grade and the teacher was like, only one person can go to the bathroom during class for some reason. I was like, I really need to go to the bathroom. And she did not call on me. And I was like, I really need, like I'm waving my hand and she doesn't call on me. And I shit myself in class, in like my class of 30 people because I couldn't just get up.

And I couldn't even say out loud, like, I really need to go, you know? And she just let some other fucking kid who probably barely had to pee. And I shit myself in class and sat quietly in my own shit for the entire rest of the class. And it like smelled like shit. It was horrible.

horrible. It was so sad. And then, of course, afterwards, my mom picks me up and is like, why does the car smell like shit? And I'm, like, not saying anything. And she, like, pulls over to McDonald's bathroom, throws my tights away, and then she's really mad at me. She's like, what is this? Like, why didn't you just, like, say anything? Like, what's wrong with you? And I'm like, I don't know. I thought I was being right and not wrong. Like, I don't know. Like, horribles. But that's, like, the energy. Like, that is, like, you know, not doing anything unless you have permission. Yeah.

Oh no. And I'm sure that's haunted you to this day. Oh yeah. Have you shat yourself since? No, I was about to say not to my knowledge. Then I was like, wait, I would know. It like definitely haunted me and felt like real bad. Not good at all. That's a really horrifying story. Thank you for sharing it with the pod. I'm

I'm sure a lot of former Catholic school students can relate. If you need to flock to our Instagram to confess stories of your shitting your pants in Catholic school, actually don't do that. That's a misuse of Instagram. Take it to your therapist. I do like that you're asking everyone to confess, though. That feels very Catholic. God, we didn't even talk about this.

that for the cult thing. I mean, it's not the same as sitting in a circle and having everyone yell at you about how much they hate you. But confession inherently is a little bit like, give the authority figure all of your personal vulnerabilities and information. Although the weird thing about Catholicism is, I mean, ideally, obviously, if the system as it were is working, they wouldn't hold that over your head. They would just be like, say some Hail Marys and like, you're all good. Go forth and cheat on your wife again and come back next Sunday. So I

Essentially, it wouldn't be that bad as far as confession systems go. But it's a weird one. That's the...

The system of punishment and forgiveness is another thing that I think makes Catholicism distinct and culty and such a mindfuck. You will be internally psychologically punished for life for just requesting to go to the bathroom at the wrong time, but you could low-key murder someone, confess it to a priest, and then you're fine. How is that justified?

Jesus, he rose from the grave? I don't know. He literally does become the bread and the wine. Like, there's a lot of math that doesn't math. Like, so yeah, the wine and the bread becomes his literal body and blood through, I think it's transubstantiation is what it's called. Also, yes, telling a bunch of children that they're about to eat the body of Christ. Cannibalism? If that's not giving cold. Yeah, we do love it, but only for Jesus. Put him in your mouth.

Not again. I desperately want to talk about the sort of demonization of all things other that is such a cultish red flag in Catholic schools and how they train that in you and instill that in you from such a young age. There's a podcast that I came across called Two Nosy Meerkats.

And one of the hosts grew up Catholic and going to Catholic school and described taking a class called apologetics. Does this ring a bell to you? No. Basically, she described it as a class that teaches you to defend the Catholic faith. Actually, a similar story came in from one of our listeners who mentioned that in her Catholic school, they had a class called ethics that was actually just theology. But calling it ethics made it sound more like fact.

This is Jamie. I'm calling from Massachusetts. I think the cultiest thing about Catholic school is the rebranding of some like subjects or classes in school. We would have a class called ethics and it would be basically about the Bible. We had another class called human nature or something like that. And it was about sexuality or how not to have an active sexual life, basically.

So clearly the system is just very good at using the art of academic euphemism to push their religious agenda. But anyway, that near cat podcaster went on to describe that like the teacher refused to teach a course on world religions because it would risk tempting the students. Whoa. But all of this indoctrination that we've been discussing so far feels a little bit subtle, I guess.

I do unfortunately think that we have to transition to talking about the more blatant abuse and homophobia within Catholic schools. Yeah. I mean, I read a lot of op-eds in preparation for this episode where former Catholic school kids who were queer later came out as queer grappled horribly

with their sexuality because they still felt connected to some of the values and rituals that they were raised in in Catholic school. I came across this one op-ed in the Washington Square News titled The Contradictions of a Catholic Education in which the author, a guy named Cole Stallone, who identifies as bisexual, says, I couldn't help but feel extremely conflicted by the idea of a faith which centers itself around love while simultaneously rejecting the notion of love for some people, which again, of course, is not acceptable

Right.

Oh, that is a great question. I would say implicitly, absolutely. Again, I was such a rule follower and my queerness had not yet manifested. So I didn't like get in trouble. But it's interesting too, because I also feel like a big part of Catholicism is just like not

talking about shit. And again, only in my experience, but it was like much less about what we were explicitly told and more about what we were not told. Any sort of sexuality or bodily autonomy or queerness, it's kind of almost like they had horse blinders on. They're like, okay, like now we're in school. And so you're going to learn about only these things. I was hanging out a while ago with a kid that I went to Catholic school with and

he ended up losing his virginity in seventh grade in like a movie theater or something. He was just like, I was a child. He was like, obviously I was there and I was doing it, but also I had no idea about the personal consequences of sex or just sort of how that would feel or what that would be. Just not having any of that information in all,

only having the information that it's kind of this like alluring bad thing is damaging to a lot of kids. Sorry, that's not really a radical opinion that like sex negative education or like abstinence sex education. Yeah. But I'm glad that you're bringing it up because again, like no one has missed all of the sex abuse tragedies and crimes that have been associated with the Catholic Church. And for me, this is the most destructively culty thing about Catholics

school is exactly what you're saying. And it's maybe not a radical point, but one that's worth belaboring because there is this really, really haunting juxtaposition of these strict rules, rituals, secrecy, obsession with maintaining hierarchies and a status quo, and these sex crimes.

And I think that secrecy paired with strict ritual creates the conditions for abuse of minors in schools and doesn't arm them or empower them with any way to understand that what is happening to them is bad or not holy. And I mean, this is a lighthearted podcast, but because we're talking about the subject matter, I do want to kind of bring up a worst case scenario of the cult of Catholic schools just so that we're able to like

fully explore the bounds of the subject matter. I did read this really haunting piece that was written in The Guardian titled My Relatives Went to a Catholic School for Native Children. It was a place of horrors. It was written by Nick Estes. One of his relatives attended a

a Catholic school called St. Joseph's Indian School in Chamberlain, South Dakota. And this relative recalled that a lot of his former classmates ended up dying by suicide. He described St. Joseph's as a smorgasbord for folks who would pray on and...

sexually terrorize native children. I actually didn't know until I started investigating it for this topic today that converting native children specifically and force assimilating them through Catholicism was such a major movement. This author wrote about how his relative described beatings,

nights of terror as priests took their pick of children and that this experience was not unique. The author also wrote about how South Dakota passed laws to prevent survivors from being able to seek damages against the church. St. Joseph's has also been investigative for sketchy fundraising practices such as creating fake children or making misleading appeals such as claiming to not have enough money to heat the school in order to solicit donations.

So in 2014, Indian Country Today, the publication reported that St. Joseph's raised almost $51 million in 2013 by mailing dream catchers made in China. Oh my God. And this school still exists, by the way. So there's just, again, this like breeding ground for

deception. You mentioned some of these atrocities that have been committed by the Catholic Church to Native children earlier in the episode, and I'm wondering, like, have you, like, reckoned with any of that really troubling history since your Catholic school days? Yeah, I mean, it's just fucking awful. I don't even know where the work in reckoning with that, other than being like, holy shit, that's really fucked up. How do you adequately...

make amends for that kind of thing culturally. And also the fucked up thing is that that's not an outlier situation that is like hard baked into the Catholic missionary model. I mean, living in Los Angeles, European missions ravaged the population of Native Americans in California and many parts of America. And in Catholic school, we did mission projects, we made little dioramas of genocide, basically, except, you know, it's like you had to just be like, look, he

teaching them and like I mean that feels like total indoctrination weirdness to like not acknowledge like the fraught history of that the idea that that place is still running getting millions of dollars that to me is just awful and also that there are all of these hierarchies set up to protect people like that I mean that is a huge thing and sort of in all of the the sex scandal the like scandal it's not a scandal it's like abuse all of the crimes the sex crimes I know I keep saying like controversial

Controversy scandal. Like that language has been fed to us by headlines. Totally. Like it's not gossip to be clear, but you know, I just feel like so much of that was about the institutional coverup and the idea that you would like ship a priest somewhere else, perhaps to a lower income area, perhaps an area of more vulnerable children. Like it just off.

And it's unfortunately not unique to the Catholic Church in that, like, you know, the entertainment industry, anywhere where there are structures of power, unfortunately, there are going to be questions of who has that power and how they exercise it. And also in the Catholic Church, it feels unique, just the absolute fucking scale of it. And also the idea of like, this is an institution, once again, that preaches moral goodness.

This is an institution that is about piety and morality and ethics. And so, yeah, like if you're a kid and that's happening to you and that is like the most powerful, best, most morally good person in your life, what are you supposed to do? It's terrifying. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like Catholic schools acknowledge that there is a pattern of abuse in their system, that their system really incubates and cultivates.

And they've gotten good at getting in front of the narrative and putting measures in place such that when another incident invariably happens, they will know what to do. There will be a procedure. I mean, the apologetics class to begin with is such an exercise in getting in front of the narrative. So here's one of my last questions. Yeah. Despite its complexities, its controversies, aka crimes, its ugly history, all these things. I

I have witnessed the sort of odd contemporary re-embrace of Catholicism in certain like, dare I say, neoliberal hipster spaces. And I'm curious like what you make of this. Where do you think Catholicism fits in modern American culture? And like why are young progressives re-embracing it, you think?

It's interesting because I feel like two things are happening at once right now. And like one is that yes, like the girlies are converting to Catholicism, which is really funny to me personally. I think I'm just like, oh, like if you weren't imbued with that toxic shame and fear of hell from a young age, like, I don't know.

Is it real? But honestly, part of it does feel like a natural progression from like the crystal and astrology girlies of like the 2010s. I love a crystal. I love a little astrology vibe. It's just the iconography is so alluring. It's so camp. We sort of already talked about how like subversive and sexy it is to be like, oh no, I'm giving that up. I can't have that.

like it's sort of kinky. It's I understand aesthetically sort of like where that comes from. And I also think that just the way that the pendulum swings, if there's going to be a reactive regressionism, like a trad movement, it might as well be like gilded and have some pageantry in it and stuff. And then it's like you see more like evangelical seeming Christian influencers with like a great aesthetic. Completely. They're such good rebranders. The even

Evangelicals are better rebranders than the Catholics, no doubt about it. And Mormons are good rebranders too. And this is a cult red flag, you know, like the cults of staying power always will go through a little like revolution in terms of their aesthetic, their fonts. But no, I think you're absolutely right. I think there's maybe like a

delusional nostalgic return. Well, and I was sort of, I was reading this article about, you know, we're seeing like bows everywhere and like coquette culture and kind of the return to a safer infantilizing version of femininity. Yeah.

and kind of wanting to abscond from responsibility because the world is a horrific dark place, but also sort of like the complications of what that means. Can you give up your autonomy in like a controlled way? You know, it's in an aesthetic safe way. Is that good? I don't know. It's, you know, I love a good bow and also complicated. That's why people join cults. That's why people join cults because they want to give up their autonomy in a controlled way. Cult of a tiny bow. Yeah.

So there's that. Okay, but at the same time, it's interesting because Pope Francis is actively trying to make the church more inclusive. He had a little sit down lunch for the unhoused with a bunch of trans women and sex workers in the Vatican, and they all ate spaghetti together, which I think is beautiful. He said that trans people can be baptized and become grandparents. I will say there's like a caveat there, though, because he was like, so long as it doesn't pose the risk of generating a public scandal or disorientation, which what does that mean? He's like,

and he approves blessings for same-sex couples but in informal settings which the idea of going to get blessed by the Pope informally is like really funny like casual blessings are fine so again like yeah Catholicism you're right to use an LA reference it feels like a lot of

and then storytelling as opposed to therefore storytelling. You know, they're just like tacking random plot point after random plot point. They're not making a lot of therefore connections. You know, this happened, therefore that.

But that's just religion, I think. We're flying by the seat of our pantaloons. We just have to acknowledge that sometimes. You know what else is like a sort of spicy hot take that I have about Catholicism is that like the religion itself has at various times in history been considered formally a cold according to like whoever was in power, cultural normativity, yada yada. As we've been saying, being weird is definitely a part of Catholicism's history and self-narrative. And I do think that that

creates a sort of chip on its shoulder complex that we see in a lot of cult leaders like Keith Raniere. I think that contributes to a lot of Catholicism's cultishness, especially combined with the chain of command type power structure, because it all makes bad actors extremely hard to hold accountable. Like, you know how by way of an edgy comparison, like incels or sexual predators will be like, I'm not a creep. I'm just a weirdo. Or like, I can't be dangerous. I'm not even cool.

That's the vibe I'm getting from some abusive authority figures in Catholic schools. It's the attitude that because I am an underdog, I get to be abusive. And I think that can turn dangerous, especially when there are so many measures in place to protect them. Totally. That's so interesting. Sarah Nicole Prickett wrote this amazing, I think it was N plus one essay,

years ago called The Ultimate Humiliation. And it was about Elliot What's-His-Face, the little incel that like went on a murder rampage. And it kind of just about entitlement specifically and about the idea of being like a little weirdo and feeling resentful of things that you feel like you deserve to have and they're being withheld from you.

But also it's weird because like priests are valsal, like we said, like, which again is fucking weird that they're like, oh, you can't fuck. And you're like, yeah, that's not going to fuck everyone up. I mean, those adults are responsible for their own fucking horrific actions, but the structure of it is just all the sex stuff is so fucking weird. And I think you're right that like some level of entitlement or, you know,

resentment that you are being denied something that you deserve to have. It's dark. It's really dark. Yeah. I've seen a lot of really, really predatory behavior in so many arenas of life excused somehow with the logic of like, I can't be dangerous. I'm not even as cool as I should be. Mm-hmm.

Like, you just wait till I'm powerful and then you'll see how dangerous I can really be. And it's like, no, actually, that whole attitude is making you the most dangerous right now. Yeah. Like, you don't deserve to be cool. Totally. Totally. Yeah. The idea of like, oh, I don't have enough power to abuse it. And you're like, well...

I don't know. Bro, seriously, seriously. You mentioned Hollywood earlier as another very hierarchical, power abusive industry. And like this attitude shows up in Hollywood all the time. Like I'm not famous enough to be a predator. It's like, look at you go. Yeah. Nevertheless, you really did persist. Yeah.

So now I want to like lighten the mood if I may. And I want to introduce a little game. So we always try to have a little fun at the end of an episode of Sounds Like a Call. Today, we're going to play a game that we've never played before. It is totally bespoke. And it's called Pick Your Penance.

So I'm going to read a list of indiscretions and I'm going to ask you to say what Catholic penance you think a priest would assign to the indiscretions. So, you know, is it three Our Fathers? Is it ten Hail Marys? There's no way to lose this game. Just really go with your gut. I love it. Okay. Okay.

The first indiscretion is cheating on your apologetics final. Pick your penance. I'm going to say two Hail Marys on that one. Not so bad. Not a ton. Like, yeah. Love that. It feels accurate. There's like no way to evaluate. Yeah. Are we going to have a priest fact check this at the end? Just go into the confession booth and just play the entire episode and be like, well...

Okay, second indiscretion. Pick your penance. Hosting a thirst trap. Ooh, man. Are you wearing a rosary in the thirst trap? Yeah. Yeah. Around your waist. Hoo-ha. Okay, great. Particularly tied into... Shabari style. Oh, sacred geometry. I love that. Shabari style. I'm going to go ahead and say that is like a solid 10 Our Fathers kneeling the whole time. Okay.

This game is so ridiculous. It's just as chaotic as Catholicism itself. Yeah. This is Vatican III. I think this is like how they do it. Next in discretion, pick your penance. Buying a book on Satanism at a queer bookstore. Ooh, is it an independent bookstore?

Yeah, it's a queer independent bookstore. Okay, so I feel like that's the meek inheriting the earth. So I'm actually pretty into that. I feel like that's just going to be one Hail Mary for that. But you have to put your whole pussy into it. Amazing. Yeah. And who knows like why you're buying that book on Satanism? It could be to practice your defense against it. Totally. Okay, pick your penance. Next indiscretion. Becoming famous on TikTok for scandalous dancing.

Ooh, that's some real golden calf shit right there. I mean, that is heretical. I'm going to say five Hail Marys, five Our Fathers. I wish that I remembered literally any other prayer that we did.

Amazing. Next in discretion, pick your penance for sharing a same-sex makeout with your bestie at a sleepover. Ooh. Okay. Well, I think it's okay as long as it does not pose the risk of generating a public scandal or disorientation. Okay.

Although if it's not a sleepover, I feel like public scandal, absolutely everyone in the hallway is going to be talking about it the next day. I would say Three Our Fathers, like, not as bad as, like, nail polish, but, you know. I did not understand what this episode was even about until we started doing this hands-on exercise. Now I fully get what it feels like to move through the logic of Catholicism. Oh my god, POV, you're a cardinal. Yeah.

I am wearing red. Yes. Okay. Last pick your penance. The indiscretion is, and I know Catholics love this shit. Premarital anal. Premarital anal. We love a, well, it's a loophole, right? It's the back of a loophole. So that's fine. What in the end was the penance for the, for the anal? Oh, none. You're good. Go with God. Oh, oh my God. The bless, bless the hell up. Okay. Go with God. Come with God.

And there we have it, the final of the evening. Okay, now we've come to the portion of the Sounds Like a Cult Mass, the liturgy, so to speak, where I ask the ultimate question. Out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out, which cult category do you, Aiden, think the cult of Catholic schools falls into? I am going to call that a solid watch your back.

Because I think there are horrific problems, big issues, spooky shit. And also, it's just so messy and entwined that I am like, I don't know, I do feel like there's a version of this where you just like hang out and make cheese and engage in charitable acts and anal. So seems great. Yeah.

Oh my god, when you put it that way, the chaos of this religion and its corresponding education system really come to light. I agree. I mean, I am left after this discussion feeling so unbelievably confused and that's...

ordinarily how I feel at the end of Sounds Like a Cult episodes that discuss traditional religions that are actually so, so culty. So I guess we did the right thing. I agree. I think it's a heavy, heavy ass watch your back.

So, parents, if you're putting your kids in Catholic school, you know, watch their backs for them, perhaps. I don't know. Yeah, only do it ironically. Teach them some bodily autonomy and boundaries. And maybe intro them to a bit of jam band music. Another fucking cult. Yes. Oh, my God. Okay, well...

Thank you so much for joining me for this gorgeous, gorgeous episode of Sounds Like a Cult. If people want to keep up with you and your brilliant genius cult of your own, you actually are a spiritual leader, first of all. Oh my god, no! You are an ironic spiritual leader. No, you are. All your meditations...

Aiden's cult leader. How did we not even discuss this? Aiden is a cult leader and you should join her cult. And if people want to do that, where can they find you? Oh, yes. New followers can find me at Aiden Arata, A-I-D-E-N-A-R-U-T-A, anywhere on the internet where people have a handle and at AidenArata.substack.com. Yay. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty.

Sounds Like a Cult is hosted and produced by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of The Podcabin. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. The

This episode was made with production help from Katie Epperson. Thank you as well to our partner, All Things Comedy. And if you like the show, please feel free to check out my books, Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and the forthcoming The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality. If you're a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I would really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts.

I am so excited to tell you about this iPhone game that I am newly absolutely obsessed with. It's called June's Journey. If you're a true crime fan, but you don't like anything too violent, I feel like this game is totally going to be up your alley. June's Journey is a hidden object mystery game that takes place in the 1920s, so the aesthetic is very colorful.

and vintagey. It centers on this protagonist named June who has to travel back to her family's luxurious island estate to solve the mystery of who murdered her sister. And you participate by finding hidden clues to help uncover the murder mystery. And I love that you also get to decorate the island estate as you go, which makes the game so fun and aesthetic and relaxing. I feel like I'm generally pretty bad at iPhone games.

but you truly cannot be bad at this one. I like to play it when I want to be on my phone, but I don't want to be on social media. I just want to relax and find something fun and distracting. It's great for that. Can you crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.

The national sales event is on at your Toyota dealer, making now the perfect time to get a great deal on a dependable new car, like a legendary Camry. That's the car I drove growing up and I couldn't have asked for a more reliable vehicle.

Built for performance and available with all-wheel drive, you can count on your new Camry to get anywhere you need to go. And with available features like heated seats, ooh la la, and a multimedia touchscreen, you can stay connected in comfort and style. Or check out an affordable and reliable Corolla with a trim for every lifestyle, from the hip

and agile sedan to the sporty hatchback, there's a dependable Corolla built just for you. Plus, both Camrys and Corollas are available in hybrid models. So no matter your style, you can drive efficiently and affordably. So visit your local Toyota dealer and check out amazing national sales event deals on Camrys, Corollas, and more when you visit buyatoyota.com. Toyota, let's go places.