"Mitch Hurwitz"
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Hey, welcome to SmartList. I'm Jason. Hi, welcome to SmartList. I'm Will. Hi, welcome to SmartList. My name is Sean. Tell you what, I'm going to do the welcome to SmartList and say I'm Jason, and then you just go Will and Sean. Hi, I'm welcome to Smart... No. Hi, I'm welcome... Oh, that was real. Hi, I'm welcome to SmartList. Hi, SmartList. How are you? Oh, little SmartList showed up today. He's crying. Welcome to SmartList, smarty pants. Smart.

I love both of my dogs, but I am not embarrassed to tell you, or maybe I am embarrassed to tell you,

I love them and love them and love them. I'll get my hands all over them. But I wash my hands immediately after I touch my dogs. Way to go. Because people who are like dog people and animal people, they're not really vocal and stuff. So way to go. Wait for the letters from the dog.

You know, you should allow and this and that. What do you mean? No, no, we love them. I'm just preempting. We loved our dogs. But I went over to a friend's house the other day, and these folks, they have the rule where you got to take off your shoes when you go in. And I get that. I understand that. But their dogs are running around all over the place. Hey, Mitch. Oh, no.

Good to see you. Oh, no, there's our guest. His thing fell off. Is that Mitch Hurwitz? It's the first time it's ever happened, you guys. Jesus, how embarrassing. That is the first time. Our mystery guest usually covers their camera, and then the person who invited the guest does a big intro, does a big buildup, and then they reveal themselves. But Mitch has an old stack of Post-its, I guess, that have not real good adhesive on them. Well, I erase them and I reuse them.

Well, whose guest is it? This is my guest. And you know what, Mitch? No, introduce him now. The listeners. No, I'm not going to. Mitch, introduce yourself. Introduce yourself. Yeah, that's your penalty. Yeah. Hi, guys. I'm Mitch. I obviously recognize you. Nice to meet you.

Michael Bluth and Joe Bluth and of course George Michael Bluth. What a treat. No, no, no, no, no. No, it's Sean Hayes. No, but for the people listening, Mitch Hurwitz is the brilliant creator of Arrested Development. Welcome Mitch Hurwitz. Welcome Mitch Hurwitz. I don't think the listener got that. Mitch Hurwitz is the wind beneath the creative wings of Arrested Development. The smartest, funniest man in

All of Hollywood. Worst secret keeper in Hollywood, they call him. Worst secret keeper, yeah. That was the worst reveal in history. This is the worst opening we've ever had, and of course it's with Mitch. Well, let's put our acting chops to the test. Okay, let's do it. Let's fake it. Yeah, let's hear what the intro would have been. Here we go. Cover the camera again. I'm covering up the camera. Brand new post. Okay, he's going to cover up the camera.

Let's go back through it. And action. Hey, guys, so I'm really excited. I fell down. You've got to wait for the intro. Mitch, wait for the intro. Wait till he says your name. Too early, Mitch. Wait till I say it now. Wait for the intro. I'm not an actor. No, clearly. We'll get into that. Don't. I'm not here. The point is I'm not here, guys. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Hey, Will, who's your guest? Yeah. So, guys, my guest today is, I'm really excited to have our guest on. You know, you love the Golden Girls. I love the Golden Girls. Did you get... We did not get the ghost of Bea Arthur. Okay. I immediately started to think, wait, who's alive and who's not? Oh, wow. Okay, keep going. Mitch, stop laughing. Mitch, you're not even allowed to laugh. Oh, wait, is the guest's name Mitch? No, it's not. No.

No. See, now you're blowing it. I know. Try again. So our first guest, ah, fuck, it's our only guest. Our guest today is a guy who started as a writer many moons ago. No. It's Mitch Erwitt. He just revealed himself again. Would it be inappropriate if I were to bring in a guest? Yes. How about a new co-host for us?

But here's what should be noted. Every one of those times that we tried to recreate... No, there's nothing to note. Let's just get this over with. Yeah, what's the glowing intro? Say all the nice things you were about to say about that. He wrote on Golden... He started as a runner at Whit Thomas and ended up running Golden Girls. He did Golden Palace. He's written a million shows. And then in 2003, he created...

a show that gave both Jason and me a life beyond our wildest dreams. He's an incredible writer. He's a phenomenal father, and he's potentially the funniest person I've ever spent time with, and I'm lucky enough to call my friend the incredible... I can't guess who this is. Wait, wait, let me guess. Drunk on Emmy Award...

Mitch Hurwitz. What? And now I'm just going to mute and cover my camera and just let you guys go. Don't do it now. No, no, we're past. Don't do it now. No, don't do it now. Do not mute. Oh, Mitch. Mitch, what are you doing on a Saturday? Well, you know, this is, I pre-recorded my part, so I'm free today. How did you know the questions? I

I wanted to look my youngest, and I just thought, you know, I knew it was coming up in a week, and I thought maybe I'd just get a week on it. You actually do look very good. What have you been doing? You look fit and hydrated. Yeah, I guess I'm hydrated. Yeah? Yeah, I've been drinking a lot of water since we worked together. I mean, I probably... Well.

Well, it's going to sound like I'm bragging, but I probably drank about 15, 20 gallons of water since we last worked together. Good Lord. That's actually not that much because it's been a minute. Is it not much? No, it's not much. Okay. Well, I know I am very thirsty. In one sitting? Yeah.

Sean. What? Do you know that Sean sent flowers? Do you remember that you sent me flowers once? Oh, right, because he thought you died or something? Was that what happened? No, no. I was collecting flowers for a while.

No, as I realized, as I told the story, I realized that there's no good way to tell the story. He's a good flower sender. I will give him that. It was a congratulations for our work together. And Sean, I owe you a thank you for that. Is that true, Sean? Or you owe me flowers? Has he never sent you flowers, Will? Honestly, has Sean never sent you flowers, Will? Me?

Yeah. No, is that something that he does too? No, but I've sent his kids gifts and never heard anything. That's not true. That's not true. Nice try. Sean, can I tell you one other thing, one other interaction we almost had? So it's 1998, and I'm trying to cast a show called Everything's Relative. Everything's Relative. Did I get it? No, you didn't come in. What had happened was— I did audition for it, but I didn't get past the cast and director, I think.

God damn it. Hold on, I'm going to make the call. Here's Mitch's rage. Are you going to make the call now? It seems a little... But Sean's great. No, he is great. No, no, no, we're not arguing that. I don't know about that. No, that show would be on the air. Okay, right. Well, what happened was I could not cast this part and I just tried everything and then I didn't know that you ever auditioned because I had said to the casting director, hey, there's a guy in a Doritos commercial.

that looks really funny. And I think he's the guy. And they were like, okay, Mitch. Who's acting like he's into the girl. No, it wasn't the girl. It was you. No, I was acting like I was into the girl in that Doritos commercial. You looked like you were more into the Doritos, to be honest. Right.

I was. Hey, Mitch, was that the show that I auditioned for too? Yes. So then we finally cast somebody. Who'd you cast? We cast a wonderful actor named Kevin Rahm. Oh, yeah. He's been in Mad Men. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's been on Smart List about three times. Each time surprised a different one of you. You don't remember.

And so we had finally cast it, and it really had been a long process. And then they said, Jason Bateman will come in. And Jason came in and read, and I remember thinking, shit, he's great. No. He's great.

But I couldn't go back one more time. How about this? Jason will come in, but Sean's asking to come in. But was this the audition that when later, when you were casting Arrested Development and I was not right for it because I brought a lot of sitcom baggage with me and you guys were trying to do something cooler than that.

you actually said, no, no, I'll read him because I remember he gave a good reading for a show I was casting years ago. And were it not for that, I may not have been seen for Arrested Development or is that my own narrative? As I recall, you know, these things are so... Do you see the way I made it about me? No, it's great. But I remember wanting you to come in because I knew how good you were and simultaneously being a little worried that...

they would just say, oh, we'll just take Jason Bateman. Because you had done a lot of pilots at that point. And I thought, well, but I want to read them and I want to make sure it's right. But as you know, you came in. And once again, I mean, just within seconds. And I found the audition. You sent me that. Have I shown this to you, Will? I should show this to you next time I see you. Mitch sent me the videotape of my audition for Arrested Development. Wow.

It's very touching to me. It really knocked me out. Why? In what way? Well, because that's, I have on film, the moment. But is that the last time Jason was really Jason? Like right before Arrested Development? Maybe that's what was so touching about it. Before we lost him. He was like a real guy. Yeah, like a real boy. No, he came in and what's amazing, I have to show it to you. I wish we could, well, let's run the clip.

Oh, shit. No, no, we're on a podcast. Mitch, this is a podcast. Mitch, we can't run it. We're not running close. It's a podcast. Yeah. What the fuck am I doing on a podcast? I know. It's a great question. What are any of us? So all that stuff about how I look, nobody can see me? They have to take our word for it. No, no, no, no. But they're taking our word for it. You sound hydrated, though. All right, I'm taking these teeth out. Hold on a second.

Wait, Mitch. Mitch, you seem like you love actors and actors love you. Do you love actors? Do you love working with the great ones and the difficult ones and the ones in between? I suppose I do. I love playing with creative people. And I just want to round out the story about Jason because it... Let's get back to that. Let him finish, guys. I just have to say it. What?

I wish people could see it because what's so striking about it is there's Jason with all his charisma and his understated talent and his unique focus. I mean, he has this thing that I really, you seldom see in actors. He's just in it for the first moment. Money. Oh, yeah.

It did seem early to negotiate, and I was surprised that we went so quickly into that. He negotiated in the audition. You were like, did you like that? Did you like that? I can give you a deal on this. I can give you that all day long for a price. The start of the rest of my life. But he, you know, he looks different. Your hair was long. You're kind of a little looser. You were playing the character. It wasn't as kind of uptight as Michael Bluth beat Kim. We're all begging for that day back. Oh, yeah. We can't wait for Luce Jason to come back.

Lose Jason we've been waiting for since 2004. For Lose Jason? Uh-huh. You know what? I remember going into that audition when I finally went to the network, and Jason, you were there, and I was...

I don't know what kind of notion I had about who you were. Definitely you were a guy who'd been doing it a long time, and you seemed like a sort of L.A. insider guy to me, that, like, you knew everybody, you knew the process, you'd worked a ton. I was a fucking nobody who was just trying to get a job, and I was like... That's funny. But you were such a... And what's amazing is...

The second you meet you, you're so warm. You're so giving and... Sorry, we're talking about me or Mitch? You. Oh! So keep going. This is a perfect job for me to talk about you guys. I thought you were talking about Mitch. Well, Mitch made the mistake of saying to me right before I was going to go in and audition for the network. And I remember it was a Monday morning. I had flown out to L.A. And he goes, you're going to get this. So listen, I go, don't say that. Are you crazy?

Well, it's what I said after it that was really horrible. That you didn't get. That he should not get this. No, that I still wake up thinking about it. He came out. I loved him immediately, just like I love Jason. You know, Will? Yeah, Will came out from that audition. Or I guess you left first, and then I stepped out of the room.

And I grabbed him and I said, you got it. You got it. They love you. And then I looked over to the left and there were two more guys waiting. Oh, that's bad. And one of them was Rain. Wilson was a great, I mean, he ended up doing okay. Yeah, had he gotten Job, he wouldn't have gotten The Office in a longer run. Oh, the people that were there were all great, but you know how it is with casting. I often wish that actors could experience what it's like to be on the other side of that casting desk because, or in my case, couch or bed or it's a

futon we had a futon no no no more no more no more no more you can't with guys right don't even joke about it oh you can no you can't okay you can't even make jokes can I use sexist language

Yeah, it's all good here. So you're saying if the actress could see the other side of the process, it would be less daunting? I imagine, I mean, you'd have to tell me, but I imagine for you guys early on in your career, these are all fortunately, thankfully distant memories for you guys, but that there was a lot of preparation that went into auditions and then there was a lot of

you know, you're focused on yourself and a lot of self-examination and you get in there and you don't maybe do exactly what you'd planned. And you feel like, well, there it is, I blew it. That's why I'm not getting it. And when you're on the other side of that casting futon, you really, like, people come in and you immediately know that they're right or they're not right for that particular character. And they haven't even started reading yet. And it's not about the talent. You haven't even seen if they're talented. Mitch, I remember when you and I did this short podcast

Liv's show, Running Wild. And you said to me before that process, you were like, we were going through the casting process and you said, wait till you, exactly what you're saying, wait till you see how different this process is when you're not on the other side. It was the first time I'd ever had been on that side of the... Fluton.

No, it was more like a kneeling rug. It was a kneeling rug because, right. It was a yoga ball. Why was I kneeling all the time? Anyway, the point is this. I thought you got the job. But you're right. And what struck me was that people would come in and people that I knew or that we knew collectively would come in. And it was, we never, ever, ever, when somebody left, we never once went, that guy sucks. Never. Ever. Never. Ever.

No, in fact, you're so focused on... I mean, I don't know that everybody's this way, but we certainly were. I mean, it maybe goes to the question of loving actors, but...

People are offering you something. They're offering you something from their heart and that they worked on and there's need there too. So you so distinctly feel the privilege of that position. And it's such a temporary privilege. So it's not like you walk around feeling that way, but in that moment you do. And the problem I've always had is I spend too long with the people who don't have a chance. Right.

Because I know they don't have a chance and I want them to have a good experience. Yeah, well, that's the difference between you and other people in your position who don't approach it that way and don't approach treating other people that way. That's why everybody loves you and you work and you're talented and everybody wants to keep going with you because there are some people out there that don't have respect for you.

Sean, that's great. I'm sorry, Sean. Yeah. Let's do that again. And just don't be...

You know what I mean? Like, just bring yourself to it. Okay. I don't know who this character is you're playing. Okay, are we still, did we cut or are we still? Oh, I'm doing it again, aren't I? I'm doing it right now. On this subject in all seriousness, and I think everybody in the audience, all three of them can relate, even though they might not be in the business, probably aren't, probably couldn't care less about the casting process, but could relate to this question, hopefully, which is you as a writer, I think everybody can imagine that they might write something. And when you write something, you imagine what the house would look

like, what the person would look like, how they would say a certain line. How do you enjoy or not enjoy the process of seeing your imagination come to life? And how fair are you about assessing whether what you're seeing is different or is it wrong? What is that process? So interesting. It's all like I probably in any creative process, probably what you guys do is

It's all control and then lack of control. You know, it's like it's true left and right side of the brain because you're kind of editing at all times. You're managing your own expectations and then you're also trying to let go and be in a flow. And for me, it immediately becomes our thing, not my thing.

So it lives as my thing in my head for a long time. And maybe, you know, Michael Bluth looks like a young version of my father or looks like my brother or something and sounds like him. And then as soon as it's Jason, a different part of my brain is activated really. And now I'm trying to do, I feel like I'm trying to give you guys what will allow you to shine and will allow you to be creative and find it. I mean, it's not...

it's not really that conscious. It's just that like, how crazy would it be to have Sean Hayes and not, and try to get him to talk like me, you know, believe me, I've tried. Nobody likes it. It's not as common as you think where that, what you would assume is common sense that, well, now that it's become three dimensional and there's actually a physical face and a, and a sound and everything that you would pivot and be able to adapt to that. I found that some of the more uncomfortable times that I've worked, um, is when I feel like I'm getting, uh,

a note or direction from a writer or a director because they're trying to make you do what they have always imagined it to be as opposed to reacting to what you're bringing to it and consequently what the audience is going to be receiving. But even that is probably more prevalent in pilots or maybe in films. Yeah. Like in television, so much of... It's certainly in comedy.

In comedy, so much of it is the immediacy between the performer and sometimes the closeness of the performer to the person because you just have to be able to access that all the time. I mean, I keep pivoting back to Sean because, you know, his character and Will's, they were both broad characters.

And yet you brought something real from who you are, which is very different than Jack and very different than Job. Although Jack and Job, I mean, I think we could go out and sell that. Sure. It's just happened. Jack and Job. As a show? Okay, Job and Jack. We had to get Will on board. On ice. Sorry, it would have to be Will Arnett as Job and Jack. I'd do that. Well, I think you're just one of the guys. No, I'm saying Will Arnett as Job and Jack. Okay.

By the way, where do I sign? That sounds like a great deal. It's great. It's one of the few parts where it's a two-hander, but you kind of get to be a third banana. And I think that could be a great opportunity for Sean. Really just step back. Have you listened to the podcast?

Wait, I want to know, you're so infectiously funny and infectiously warm. Wow. Like, I can't imagine somebody not getting along with you. Has there been difficult...

with certain personalities along the way that you had to figure out how to navigate yourself that you didn't know there was a side of you? You know, like, oh, I've never dealt with this kind of person, so I have to shift in this way. I can't imagine you not getting along with anybody. That's what I'm saying. There were a couple of times, it was early on where I was working with an actor...

On a pilot, God, I want to say his name. We'll give you half a beer. And everybody kept saying, oh, boy, this is going to be difficult. You're going to have a hard time with him. And I somewhat cockily sort of felt like, no, I like the guy. We'll get along great and everything. And then after I was done shooting the pilot, they said, wow, that was really nice. He seemed to like you. You know, he took a swing at the last showrunner. He took a swing at him. Yeah. Wow.

Oh, wow. I might not have been so cavalier about the ease with which it was going to go down. Wow. And, you know, I remember working early on with Jeffrey Tambor, and as we all know, a lot of what we've heard about Jeffrey Tambor is Jeffrey is a pussycat, and...

he, like anybody is, you know, prone to emotional outbursts, but never, but I mean, he was never abusive or anything, but you know, he would, he was scary because he was older than me and he was, you know, a comedy God and everything. And I remember doing a show early with him. And the idea was, this was the same one that I was thinking of Sean for. It was something my father had done,

where he used to complain about my brothers complaining. You know, Michael, we got to straighten out. You know what we got to do? Let's get out on a bridge in the car at some point, and I'm just going to take the keys, and I'm just going to throw them out over into the river.

I said, I don't understand. He said, okay, you know what? We'll get a boat. We're going to go get a boat. We'll go off of the coast of Dana Point or something. Then we'll get way out there and I'll just push the engine into the ocean. I said, well, what lesson could possibly accrue from this? And he said, well, I loved his response because he said, well, we're not going to be three skeletons just floating in the boat.

I mean, something's going to happen. You know, we're not going to be just end up on this bridge, three skeletons in a car. You know, life goes on. You can always overcome something. And so I loved this idea. Three skeletons. The idea of three skeletons sitting in a car. They couldn't figure out what to do. So the idea was, so I put that in a show.

And the boys, you know, but they weren't 12-year-olds and 14-year-olds. They were like 25-year-olds and 28-year-olds, and they're arguing in the car. And so Jeffrey Tambor, as the father, throws the car into park and takes the key out and throws it into the river and says, God damn it. I'm not going to put up with this anymore. I love you guys. You're going to stop fighting. And then there was some punchline about something else they needed to get to, and they couldn't get to it, and then he got hysterical. Right.

So it was just a little throwaway thing I wanted to get. He gets upset and he throws the keys. And Jeffrey starts playing the scene. You know how he does that sometimes? He's crying. His mouth goes down. And he's saying, I love...

You boys! And it's really, you know, like, and he's pounding on the dashboard. But it's actually having a very emotional reaction. The actors, they're both in the back seat because they wanted to kind of infantilize them. They're crying. So there's like three, there are no skeletons in the car. There's three weeping men, right? Different than I imagined, but the scene's working great.

And then a much bigger turn, as you can imagine, when he realizes at the end, oh, God, oh, God, what have I done? What have I done? I've got to get to the whatever. Your mother's in the delivery room. Exactly. That's what it was. It was like, your mother and my girlfriend are together. So after the thing, I was like, that was great. And Tony Thomas, who I worked for at the time, who's Danny Thomas' son, and, you know, he's been doing this for a long time, sticks his finger into my back and says, go tell him to bring it down. Mm-hmm.

And I'm talking to three actors who understand what that means. I mean, you've just got an actor who's really exposed himself. Yeah. I mean, you can't just pull that back. You can't just... And I certainly don't want to be in a position of scolding somebody who's just opened themselves up in that way. Yeah. So I... That was an example of like, all right, I'm going to have to...

find a way to supplicate such that when I do get around to giving the note it's it's acceptable and I other than that one was for you yeah we okay we have one that way we've got that so what'd you say what'd you say how'd you put your hands in the cage so I I and you know he was big at that time you know he's like 300 pounds and he's a teddy bear you know but still I was brand new at this

So I had to walk out there and I remember I stood there for a while and he said, ah, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with that? And the other actors were not helping because they were saying like, oh my God, that was the most incredible scene I've ever done in a comedy. That was incredible. And I said, oh. In a comedy. That was the one. That was it. We got it. We got it. Wow. It's done. It's in the can.

and then i took as long a pause as i possibly could and i said hey why don't we do one just a little lighter just for fun he set his teeth and he went stomping around the set and i was like i don't know what to do i stood perfectly still and i could he was just embarrassed and upset and you know like stomping around and stomping around and then i got to it he wasn't he didn't yell at me but he just you could tell he was really pissed off

So I just sort of froze in place. And then when he finally kind of came back to where I was standing, I said, I got the sense that he started to feel like I might need a way out of this. So I said, I just meant to play with the levels. And he said, oh, play with the levels. Shit, yeah, we'll do that. I'll do that all day long. I'll play with the levels. I'm happy to play with the levels. Yeah, his humor, his...

His humor and presence was so intimidating. I remember the first day on Arrested when I was such a huge fan from the Larry Sanders show and I walked up to him and I said...

Mr. Tambor, Jeffrey, Jeffrey's fine. I'm just so excited that we're doing this together and just really looking forward to the scene today and just, I guess, just have a great day. Yeah. And he looked at me, he said, don't you fucking tell me what to do.

I know, it's his sense of humor. Yeah, that dry, it killed me. Yeah, I loved it. It laughed my ass off. I did a table read. Jason, I think with you many, many years ago, and I think it was with you, it was a movie and it was a big table read. Maybe it was his sister. It could have been my sister. Maybe it was his sister, Justine.

And me and Jeffrey got to the door jam at the exact same time. And I never really met him. That's the first time I met him. And got to the door at the exact same time and he goes, oh, please, in order of billing. And he had to go first. Wow. I remember like the first season we were doing something and then I ended up, for some reason, he gave me his phone number and I took it down and then he said...

How happy are you to get my phone number? He's funny, man. Never winks. Yeah. So good. All right, back to the show.

Mitch, Mitch, Mitch, take everybody, if you can, a couple of things I want to talk about. You talked about working for Tony Thomas. You worked first at Golden Girls, is that right? Yes, well, I was a runner. We got to talk about that. I mean, it's one of my favorite shows ever. It's one of the great shows. For Sean's sister, what does a runner do? You know, it really is a fairly thankless, like everybody. Just a short description because I want to get to the Golden Girls. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

- When entertainment began, and I mean entertainment. - Oh, I love this. - The concept of one human being reaching out to another. - Right, right, right. - I'm trying to go quick, Sean, but I just gotta give it the context. - The Lumiere brothers.

Okay, so Runner basically is the entry-level job on these shows, as you guys know, but I guess you're pretending you don't. And you use Xerox scripts and you deliver coffee, and I remember thinking, this is a mistake, this cannot be

You know, because I'd given people spec scripts and I'd given a resume that I think even had some student body positions on there. Sure. I was padding a little bit. I see you were a treasurer at Estancia High School. Yes. As a matter of fact, I learned a lot about responsibility and...

But suddenly I'm delivering coffee. At the time, I remember I had to go drive to Venice from Hollywood to pick up coffee at the Rose Cafe, and then I'd drive it all the way across town back to Hollywood, and then I'd hand it to the runner coordinator, and he would walk the six steps into Tony Thomas' office and Paul Witt's office and say, here's your coffee. Let me know if there's any problem, and I would be happy to send somebody out and get you a new coffee. And I remember thinking, I'm sorry.

I'm screwed. I'm never... I'm never getting anywhere. I'll be a skeleton in the writer's room. Wait, Mitch. Mitch, at the time, were you wearing a sport coat? Yes. So my father... You knew I was going to ask this. Yeah, that was another good little piece of advice my father gave me because he was very fit and I was a young guy and so we wore the same size sport coat. He was a lawyer, so he had all these like suits and sport coats.

And so I would just borrow them. I'd just take them. And it was his suggestion. He said, you know, you want to create a mismatch. He knew David Geffen a little. And he always said, you know, David Geffen came along at a time when all the managers and agents were dressing in three-piece suits. And he came along and he was like an artist.

even though he was the most killer businessman of them all. And, you know, at that time, everyone was wearing, it was kind of grunge was in, and it was like torn T-shirts and stuff. And I was there, somehow the audacity to wear a sport coat every day. And it worked. It worked. It worked. Paul Witt, about, you know, like maybe two months into a job that should have taken years, said, you know, we've had our eye on you. There's something about you. And I was like, I wonder what...

I wonder what it is. This was Golden Girls? You were a runner on Golden Girls, and didn't you end up being one of the head writers? Yeah, I was especially right at the very end for the spinoff they did called The Golden Palace. So then how many years did that cover from entry-level position to basically the boss? It was fairly quick for me. It felt long. Five years, six, 12?

Well, I did. Then I became a development executive and that was fairly brutal for me because I had been a comedy writer in high school. You know, I wrote high school plays and I just, I always loved comedy. And now I was-

reading, you know, really at that time, very hacky sitcom scripts because sitcoms were really hacky. Yeah. And I just was going down this executive path. So that was the downside of wearing a sport coat. It was like, this guy's got executive material. Did you end up writing a spec for Golden Girls? How did that happen that you made that leap? I think I wrote, I wrote a spec. Yeah. So a spec script is like a sample script.

And I had written a couple others. And so I wrote one for a show called Empty Nest before it was a show. It was just a pilot. And that got their attention. And they just, I don't know. Who cares? I think it's interesting. We do. We care. I mean, I'm a huge fan of the show. So I think it's fascinating. How many years did you write on the show? So I think I was a writer like in full for the show for the last maybe three years of it.

And did you ever get, did you get to know the actors? Oh, yes, very well. Yeah? And wasn't it true that Estelle Getty, wasn't she the youngest out of them? She, I don't think she was the youngest. I think Rue was, but she was young. She was probably 67, and I think- Playing the oldest one. I think Rue was 57. Oh, wow, wow. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah, it was just so funny and clever, and we'd never seen anything like it. And, of course, the writing was brilliant. Golden Girls, the jokes were so good. There were so many jokes. It was great training joke writing, and they could make anything work. And I loved Bea. I had a great relationship with Bea. People were kind of scared of Bea, but she was...

You know, this comment has been made before, but she was kind of tough on the outside and soft on the inside. And Betty was, you know, sort of softer on the outside. Am I saying this backwards? No, no, you got it. They both had soft internal organs. Their internal organs weren't... Those are medical conditions, Mitch. They're medical conditions.

And because of that dynamic between the two, did they work together well? Did they collaborate? Say whatever you want. It felt like a really good creative collaboration. You know, it was kind of like there are often those things like, you know, John Lennon and Paul McCartney where there's one that's a little harder and one that's a little softer, kind of a matriarch and a patriarch. And that kind of played out with them. Yeah. But they were really special. And...

And my stuff, you know, it's been said before that like your style is formed by what you can't do. And sometimes it's by what you think you can't do. And when I started off there, I remember thinking, well, you know, these are experienced joke writers. I don't know how to write jokes. I mean, I loved comedy and I loved things that were funny, but I didn't know how to write that, you know, eight word joke that...

And that show was, you know, it's what we kind of emulated with the rest of, and certainly Will and Grace had this as well, you know, where it's like the setup is funny, the punchline is funny, the line after it is funny, the callback to the setup is funny, the incidental line that somebody throws in is funny. And so it was really tough training that way. But all my stuff kind of became...

because I think I felt like I couldn't write those hard jokes. I started, my stories were just really intricate and layered so that something would come up four times. Oh, so today's different. Kind of come around. Today's a little, you just took a break from that kind of storytelling today. Yeah, now I'm just a rat-a-tatter. Kind of to that idea that it became about story, I think that one of the things that, you know, you can go back and watch shows that were big hits in the 90s or early 2000s,

legitimately great big shows that were funny at the time, that when you watch them now, they were so...

I don't know. The jokes just seem too... Written, probably. Well, no, it's more that they're just too of the time. Oh, I see. They're topical, you mean? Yeah, and they just don't translate to today. So you have... But what you've always maintained, and I remember... I don't know if you remember this, but I've learned so many great lessons from you, and one of them was that always be...

I remember we were writing something, you, me, and Jimmy, in that very room in which you're sitting right now. Yeah, the room I'm sitting, yeah. And Mitch, you'd be sitting there at the computer, and we'd be pitching jokes. Jimmy Vallely, great Jimmy Vallely, hilarious old friend of Mitch's and partner in writing, pal, and just everything. And we would be pitching jokes, and you'd go... And even to your own jokes, like the three of us just talking, and you'd go, we'd laugh and laugh and laugh, and then you'd stop and you'd go...

Yeah, but it's just, it's not telling the story. And you'd put it off to the side. You might put it in another folder, but you're like, we can't use that joke, even though it's the best joke that we had heard in the last three hours. Yeah, and even though a lot of those jokes, you know, ended up in other pilots I did that you guys never found out about. Sure. But what I was trying to teach you...

But you know what I mean? No, but it's true. I do think that everything is story in a way and everything that, you know, every laugh that you guys have ever gotten. I mean, there are ways to be funny. There are family guy things where they're just non sequiturs that are funny. But, you know, it's just much funnier to, you know, for instance, for Sean to find out

that what his mother was betting on at the supermarket were the fiberglass horses. That's story. But there is something to, like, there's a non sequitur, there's, you know, and then there's like, oh, but this is about a character. And it's why, I mean, it's...

Wait, now Mitch, let me ask you something. We always ask people like, what were your comedy influences when you grew up? But are there comedy people that you're drawn to today that what do you like? What do you, who do you admire now? Who's out there now that you're like, wow, I would love to write like that or I'd love to meet that person because they're a great standup or I like their show or something in the comedy world. Um,

You know, I always just like funny people. I don't even have a good answer for that. I mean, there are people that I just find, oftentimes it's people who can completely...

consume the character or subsume or just be the character, I guess is what I'm getting at. And it's why I always loved about what Jason does that, you know, Jason played a character who was ostensibly a straight man on Arrested Development, but he was so much more. He had so many flaws and Jason was able to play him with all his blind spots and what he doesn't see about himself. And, you know, I think of like just other contemporary funny people, Will,

Will and I were talking about Fred Armisen the other day. Yeah, he's so funny. And Fred is so funny because he, again, it's like he just becomes this character. Right. And that's kind of a function of story in a way. Do you see that what the public considers funny changing noticeably in the last year, in the last five years? And if so, has it affected the way you approach comedy?

uh sort of breaking a story or a concept a premise for something funny i feel like comedy has gotten less important out there yeah i don't know if you guys are meaning it's meaning it's sillier or it's broader now no that it's there's not as much of it people don't need it there's no comedy features there's no comedy i know i think it's because there's been this big international movement and comedy typically doesn't work internationally i mean in fact we're

We know that it does, but that people are always scared of it. Yeah. Well, people, Mitch, just to give it some context, which Mitch is kind of referring to, and certainly some of our friends even at Netflix will admit that, you know, you'd start to go in and pitch them shows over the last couple years, and they're like, well, we need that show to resonate globally, and we think that those jokes globally. So those jokes about the guy who, we had a show, those jokes about the guy who works in Utah at this thing,

those aren't really going to translate. And it's like, what the fuck are you talking about? These are jokes, jokes are jokes are jokes. Because comedy has to be specific and it has to be really right. It has to be. But if it's reliant on something that is only known to the domestic audience, it won't travel and therefore they won't spend as much or any time. I mean... I don't mean to call Netflix, I mean just everybody. I mean, that's an example. But I mean that that...

unfortunately, is kind of what Mitch was saying, that there is this idea that... Right, it used to be... It's almost like sitcoms got less funny for a while because they were trying to appeal to so many people. It was the lowest common denominator. Right, yeah. But don't you think, back to what you said about, you know, it doesn't seem like people care about comedy so much. Don't you think, well...

a large part of it is due to the pandemic. Sure, it was a little bit before that, but don't you think it's about to turn? Don't you think people are looking for joy and laughter and anything other than just doom? Yeah. I'll bet it's coming. I know they are. We'll disagree. I disagree. I know that people are looking for it. I don't know that the broadcasters are looking for it because it went from lowest common denominator to being really specific when Netflix and these places started out and you could do these sub-genres and these little interesting looks at lifestyles.

And then now it has become, it seems really big. Even a show like Ted Lasso, which has a lot of laughs and everything, is really clearly designed and does it very effectively. Have you seen Chad? To reach a lot of people. I saw an early version of Chad, which is great. So freaking funny. I know. Really? Nassim Pedrad is from Saturday Night Live. Yeah. She plays a teenage boy.

And it's the funniest thing I've ever, it's hilarious. And it's taken them like maybe five or six years to get that show made because that pilot had been made four or five years ago. And do you think that they probably predetermined, well, we're only really our ambition for sort of audience size is only going to be X and therefore we'll price it accordingly and let's just do it. Well, I think that the pricing is part of the problem. I think things got really expensive recently.

You know, when we did Arrested, we did it very inexpensively. And I remember, I mean, we probably did it, all these numbers are huge by normal standards, but it was something probably like a million six or something to make an episode. Wow. And then right when we got done, I did a pilot at Sony and it was like 4,500,000. For a half hour? Yeah. For a half hour. Wow. Per episode?

Yeah, we didn't go. I mean, it was just too expensive for, so that's been part of the problem. Well, would you, would you, would you rather, I bet I know the answer, would you rather do something that is tonally specific, but for a lesser price than something that would give you a big check, but reach a gazillion people?

I kind of think the big check is not even in the offing right now. Right. What if you were like only the big check? Yeah. Oh, I would. Yeah. If there was, by the way, that would be choice one. Okay. Okay. Choice one, only the big check, no show. Yeah. I don't have to do anything. That's great. Choice two, big check, easiest show I could possibly do. Do you think they'd make Arrested Development today?

I don't think so. I think it was barely made when we made it. Because it was right at a cusp period where they were still going for the big audience. I don't know how we got that on the air. It was really just the will of the people that liked it at the network and at the studio. And do you think that these sort of un-PC moments of humor in it would even be tolerated even by a niche audience today? No. No.

That could be one of the reasons that comedy is challenged right now. Yeah. That people are, I don't think it's necessarily wrong. I mean, there have been a lot of people have taken it on the chin for a long time and there isn't an appetite for making fun of people. But of course, comedy is just making fun of individuals, not making fun of groups. And, you know, what you guys did on the show was always make fun of yourself. That's what I was talking about with Blindspots.

you know, and Joe being full of bravado, but then in a moment later, just being completely fragile and devastated by some insult from his father. You know, it's like actors don't like to do that usually. And yet that's where all the great stuff is. I'll never forget. You told me once, um,

that sort of the, correct me if I've got it wrong, that the recipe that you had in mind was that your job as writers were to make these characters as unlikable as possible and that our job as actors is to make them as likable as possible. And the combination of those two things kind of allowed you guys to take these huge, what could be offensive swings...

And then our ability, hopefully, to play ignorance or naivete would kind of give you the safe harbor to-- First of all, I said that. -Oh. -Mish didn't say that. Got it. You might have said that.

I said that. I believe that you said that because I have been credited with that before and it doesn't quite sound like me, but I think one of the things that I, the benefits that I had was that I knew, like, that in the DNA of the thing, my characters were in the wrong.

And they would get their comeuppance. But it was easier to have them be politically incorrect when the point was that they were in a miserable life condition and that they were in the wrong. So, yeah, so to that extent, I was trying to show, okay, there's selfishness here and there's self-absorption and narcissism. But these people are... Entitlement. Yeah, these are people who are saying and doing things that are, you know, that sometimes aren't easy to stomach or sometimes distasteful or sometimes, you know, way off...

way out of bounds. But what we're saying is, yeah, and that's what, who these people are. That's what makes them so peculiar and strange. Yeah, they're not right. Yeah, they're not right at all. They're human beings. They're flawed human beings that are provincial and scared and don't want to lose their entitlement, you know? Mitch, did you ever, you talked about writing when you were in high school and writing comedy and stuff, and you made that decision to not go into acting. Was there a moment...

seminal moment? That's a great question. Will, that's a great question. And just for you other guys, because you're all trying to figure out who's the best host, that's the best question that's been asked.

An unfinished question is even qualifying as the best. I know what he's asking. What he's asking is, why weren't you a major movie star? And I'm going to tell you the choice that I made. Was there a moment that could have led to that? Yeah, I mean, I was less interested. I would have been, I don't know that I would have been considered an actor's actor. I think I would have been considered a major action movie star. And the reason I didn't go down that road. Yeah, keep going. Quicker, faster. Well, okay, so quicker. So just the backstory is,

there was an audition for the movie Taps. Sure. And my drama teacher wanted to send me to it. And I didn't, the specifics don't matter. I think it was a Spanish class that took precedence. Well, let's talk about the specifics. But the end of the story is you didn't get it. Yeah, I didn't get it. I didn't go on it, but I also didn't get it. You didn't go on it. Had I gone on it and gotten it,

Then look at me. I'm Tom Cruise over here. Sir, who got the part? Oh, Tom Cruise got the part? Oh, Tom Cruise got the part. Yeah, okay, okay. And Tom's great. Tom's great. I have no problem with Tom. Tom's great. Tom's talented.

And he does a different thing than I do. But you would have denied the world the talents of Tom Cruise. No one would have known who Tom Cruise is. Tom and I are very different. He could have, I don't know, maybe would have written a funny sitcom about four bachelors or something that lived together. But would you have seen yourself making some of the same choices that Tom did in his career? I would have made most of the same choices. I would not have made...

As you know, I would not have, this isn't quite professional, but I would not have divorced Nicole Kidman. I would have made that work.

Okay. And for a very, very simple reason, I think she's very pretty. Okay. And I don't think you disrespect that. I don't think you just... Mitch, are you comfortable sharing with us what you're working on next or what you are excited about? We're talking about our Mission Impossible 7. But what I would be working on or what I am working on, I misunderstood. Okay.

But it would be MI7. Yeah, yeah, MI7. I got it. MI7. Well, the six left so many open-ended questions. Yeah. But MI. He even calls it MI. Yeah. We've never done, they've never done a guy riding a motorcycle underwater, so I think MI7 has some room to play in that space. Paddle wheels.

Hey, Mitch, that question from Sean did get me thinking, and I'm going to go ahead and put you on the spot here on live podcast vision. What are the odds of Will and I ever working with you again? Are you working on anything that we could fit into? I mean, it's just an apology. I just need the apology, guys. I mean, I can't do it without the apology. Oh, my God.

Oh, well, I'm sorry. Let me just give you a blanket apology. Why was that so hard? Spell it out. Anytime you use it for anything you want. I mean, I would love to. God, there's nothing I'd love more. I mean, that's one of the problems I was so spoiled by working with you guys and, and, um...

everybody on that show really let's come up with a show right now let's let's have a little so let's say uh uh and sean you can be in it too so it's three are are we are we brothers or are we co-workers sorry hang on hang on it's set in l.a okay it's set in l.a because we have families and are we brothers are we brothers or are we co-workers mitch um yeah are we brothers or co-workers i'm

I'm gonna say brothers and co-workers. Brothers and co-workers. Great, love it. And you're physically very abusive with each other, and this is where we get into a little bit of the Three Stooges territory, so forgive me. Physical comedy. You're pokers. Familiar to me. You're pokers and you're prodders and you're pullers and you're slappers. Hey, quit horsing around, you two. You're disturbing my coffee break. Sean, that was the most amazing Larry Fine. I can't believe you even discovered that you knew how to do Larry Fine. I didn't. You can do a lot. Have you ever heard him play piano? No.

I have no doubt he can do a lot of different things. No, I used Billy West to taught me how to talk like Larry. Oh my God, that was- Because it's the same as Ren and Stimpy. He's the voice of Ren and Stimpy. And he said, I used Larry from the Three Stooges to talk like Stimpy. So if you ever get stuck, just watch- But it was for, do it, just do a little of it. Hey, quit whorsing around you two. You're disturbing my coffee break.

Wait, now do it. Now do it. And how about how Will transformed himself into a horse? Like do a little of it. That's hard. Do a little of the horse, Will. Do the horse. I've been doing it. I've been doing it. Oh, you have been doing it. This is the horse. That's what it sounds like on the show? This is the horse. I don't know how to watch that. Oh, yeah, I guess it is. Jason, you've never watched it. When does Will get back? Can I talk to Will then? You've never... I stopped watching cartoons when I was, you know...

Oh, boy, that's a really tiny answer. That's really tiny. I'm waiting for a few hundred of them to be made so then I can really binge it. Oh, is that what you're doing? Your behavior is diabolical. Your behavior is diabolical, Jason. Listen, Sean has never seen Arrested Development, Mitch, and he didn't want to admit it. I have.

I've seen the first three episodes. It's hard to get around to watching something, particularly that we've always had this problem with Arrested that people kind of thought it was a smart show. It was critics trying to be nice. I'm not kidding. I laughed out loud. The reason why I haven't watched it is because I'm fucking lazy. I don't watch anything. I read. I watch news stuff. I...

What do you read? I'm curious. What do you read? Right now I'm reading The Mind-Body Connection. So nonfiction you read mostly. I don't think Will reads a lot of nonfiction. I do read a lot of nonfiction. What about you, Mitch? Are you a reader? I am. Fiction or non? Sort of both, but mostly nonfiction, I have to say. Mitch is a voracious reader. Mitch, one time we were flying to London and he was reading that book.

Remember I was taking notes in it? He was reading the book about the, what was it called? The China Study. The China Study. And so it's like, you know, we leave L.A., it's a 12-hour flight, and we settle down, and I fall asleep. I sleep the whole flight, and we're just pulling in. And Mitch is there, and he's got his lights on, and he's like, and he's been reading. The exact same position as when we took off from L.A., and he's been taking notes, and he's like...

hey, by the way, did you know that we shouldn't be eating any meat and we should also only be eating legume that are grown in our own backyards? And I'm like, what the fuck is going on? It really changed me until we were about like almost all the way to baggage claims. LAUGHTER

And I think there was some meat thing in pastry that we got a few of. So you like that kind of stuff. You like non-fish. I do. And, you know, neurology is everywhere right now. Neurology is so interesting. You've always been into that, though. That's been a big. That's brain stuff? Yeah. Fascinating, yeah. I love it. It's just responsible for everything, even our notions of ourselves. Well, and, you know, our gut, it's our second brain match. I love this character. Yeah. Yeah.

First of all, you've been reading up on neurology for years. Teach me something about neurology, Mitch, right now. No, I think this is, by the way, this is interesting. I think one of the things I love about Mitch, about the way that you write and the way that you approach characters and story is you do read a lot about not just about how the brain works, but about how people work. And I think all that shit informs your writing in ways that you don't, you're not even necessarily conscious of. Yeah.

If the China study taught you anything. But no, but I mean, you do, you love that shit. It's the kind of shit you talk about. You'll constantly go, do you know that when people have a relationship with another person, that they have made a connection and you'll bring up something that strikes you. And I think it makes its way into your characters. I mean, that particular one was just a way of,

saying you know include me in things will be my friend i'll be happier and that will make you there is a level of intelligence that is just unbelievable with with your writing do you think that you gave uh enough of that intelligence to your offspring

Do you, do you, because I was talking about this the other day. This is a pivot to a new subject. I don't want to hurt anybody, but hurt with whiplash. But I was talking to somebody the other day about nature versus nurture. And you really can't really conduct that study inside your house until you have two children and you do have two beautiful daughters. And so do you see the like, oh, well, this one got a lot of this and this one got a lot of that. Are they, are they, are they, they're both out of the house now, right? No, they've both been home. They should have been out of the house.

But they both went home because of COVID. So it's been kind of a blessing, but a blessing that I don't realize is a blessing. Like, it's just something I know I'm going to look back on and think, God, I had that little gift. Were you enjoying the empty nesting? We never got a chance to. Oh, really? It never happened. We never had a chance. We never had a chance. But, you know, don't you discover, I think that the biggest illusion is that these children take after us.

I think they are just their own people. Oh, you really think that? I do. Yeah. But it's an illusion. It's a really prevalent illusion. And particularly with traits that maybe you don't like about yourself.

That I, you know, maybe because I've been interested in comedy or maybe just because I'm a jerk, I tend to like see flaws all the time. You know, I see flaws in people. I see cliches that are used. I see behavior that, you know, and I can be very critical of that. And then I'll see my younger daughter will have a really sharp, quick response about somebody struggling to get into a, you know, past a car door or something and say, oh, look at this. Here we go. Look at this.

So it feels like that's from me. That's interesting, though, because I never, I always thought about that. It's wiring. I mean, listen, we know that negative experiences are far more powerful than positive experiences. And there's, you know, an evolutionary reason for that and the differential rate of those that survive that pay attention to negative experiences. And so,

you know that you can influence a child for the worse. That's undeniable. Yeah. Giving them praise and undue accolades is not that beneficial because evolutionarily speaking, the human body kind of like discounts those things almost immediately, right? Yeah. There's been actually a lot of studies that I won't be able to quote here, but that about, you know, talk about things that are unintuitive. You're not supposed to tell children that they're smart, right?

Like smart is really not a great thing to tell a kid like, oh, you got that right. You're really smart. They've done tests where kids that are told that are smart, like they're given, they take third graders and they give half of them, they give them each the same test. They tell half of them, hey, you did well, you're smart. And they tell the other half, hey, you did well. You really work hard. You don't give up.

Then they give those same kids a fifth grade math test, which they couldn't possibly finish. They don't have the skills yet or the tools. The kids that were told, hey, you're really smart, they give up on it much faster. Almost 100% of people stop taking the thing and say, this is stupid. Because they have something to lose now. They have...

I'm smart to lose. And the kids that weren't told that but were told, well, you work hard, well, they tend to stay with that test longer and get some benefit from it. Is it kind of like I've been told I'm smart so I don't have to try? Like I already did that? I think it's probably more that you don't – I mean I have a lot of this. Like I worry about doing something that's not good enough. I worry about – Well, we're going to edit this. Oh, okay, great. Yeah.

- Great. And who gets edited in for me? But you can imagine that you would then go to take a language class or learn the piano or a skill that you can't be good at instantly unless there's just some alternate wiring that's going on that gives you that special ability. And you take three piano lessons, you say, this is stupid, I can't do this because you haven't been praised for your determination

And your forbearance, you know, you've been praised for just already being able to do something. And we can't already do something. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. You don't know anything until you learn it. Yeah. Until you're taught it. But I have to reteach myself that all the time. I mean, a lot of that has to do with like pushing yourself to be curious. I'll start a project and I'll think, oh, this isn't going to be good though. This isn't going to be good. Or it's too similar to something else. And I'll have to kind of shut off that voice and

and tell myself to be curious about the experience of this and not to focus on that result and to just see if there's something along the way in the journey of putting it together that is beneficial. I love that. And so to that point, do you have something that you're working on that you love that you're going to take out soon? You know, there are a few things. It's tough to talk about this because I'm working with some other people and I don't want to jeopardize everything. But there are a few things that I...

The stuff that I'm most interested in doing and that I'm telling you we should do together is stuff that breaks the form a little bit. Because I think you'd need...

we've got to shake it up a little bit. Yeah, I agree. And, you know, whether things, I mean, you guys all have, I think there's a way to redo the multicam with like a lot more improv in it. I'm dying to do that. You know, you and I talked about that, Jason. Connect with the audience. Who woke up well? Somebody woke up well. No, well, not connect with the audience. Back to bed. Feel the laughter. Okay, well, a little bit of feel the laughter. Okay.

Break the form. And I remember, I think that was what was fun about when we were all working together and there were so many grand aspirations that we never did. Like, do you remember, just thinking about this yesterday, when we were trying to get David Cross's character, who was an actor, a wannabe actor, Tobias,

to actually appear on House as a regular, as Tobias, like the actor Tobias is. And that on our show, he would be like going off to work and, you know, we'd be behind the scenes of their show. And on their show, it would just be an actor who just wasn't very good. But he wouldn't have to carry a lot of pipe or anything. And...

And I remember the showrunner saying, like, well, why are we the fake world? Because you share the stage next to us. Yeah. Exactly. Well, we want to be the real world and have you be the fake world. It's like, no, just be...

It's funny. But that's the stuff that, you know, remember the other thing we were going to do like that was we were going to do a live show in between, like we were going to do a two-part season of Arrested Development on Netflix and then in the middle of it, like the characters were going to do this live show, this rally to fundraise for Buster. Yeah.

And then we were going to actually do the live show. Oh, that's cool. That's a good idea. Raising money for themselves and then air that as a special. I don't know. That's the stuff. Maybe it's just avoidance of the actual hard job of just writing characters and letting it be funny. But I do find that that's the stuff that appeals to me. Like, let's do two shows.

And have them interact somehow. Mitch, do you sometimes get distracted from having to do that shit? Get distracted by a funny idea? And then you're just like, this seems like so much more fun than the hard work of what I'm doing right now. I mean, I think that is the big secret to comedy writing. And we've had this experience together. Everything is just about what's funny. You kind of, after the fact, you engineer what you're getting at and what the character's growth means and all that. But really, it starts with...

What would be funny? Mitch, what about, what would you say to a 12-episode, I'm not offering this yet, so don't say like sold. I'm in. Okay, sorry. Oh, shit, no, I'm saying don't say I'm in. To a 12-episode order of... Let's do it. I didn't say sold. I said let's do it. You did say let's do it.

12 episode of multicam episodes of Arrested. Oh, God, I was hoping you were gonna say that. -I'm in. -Oh, that would be fantastic. Yeah, do the sitcom version with a live studio audience. Just do an alternate thing. -Yeah. Alternate. -And then, like-- And then maybe we'll borrow a little from WandaVision and we'll make it like, "Oh, it's all through time." -Yeah. -No, I-- I always thought our show would work as a multicam, 'cause who plays Lucille Bluth? -I know. -Sean Hayes. -Sean Hayes. -Oh, my God. -It's there in your eye in the face.

Yep, Sean Hayes. Slap a wig on me, it's just another Tuesday. Well, we're not going to slap it. We're going to glue. We're going to do a bald cap first. Yeah, I think we want the wig to be right. It would make as much sense as... We want the wig to be really right. We got great... Go ahead. Sorry, Jason. Yeah, who played... Who did you... I'm just saying we have good wig people. Just take a wig off Sean and, you know, obviously put another better wig on him and just shoot the thing. LAUGHTER

Or just take one off and leave the one that's on underneath it. Right, because you're double. Let's do a fucking... Let's do...

Arrested Development. Can I call you Milt? Is that okay? Name Milt? Milt. Sure. Sean, are you okay with Milt? Yeah, Milt. We're going to go all the way back to three camera. And it's going to be dollies. Yeah. Multicam. Arrested. Live band. Why not? Let's do it. Let's do multicam and like behind the scenes of a multicam or something at the same show. We don't need to be. The whole sort of, what do they call it? When cast come back together. Yeah.

Reunion. Oh, reunion. Yeah, those are all the rage now. And you still don't think you should read, huh? Some words are tough for me. Yeah, we'll do one of those and then we'll roll it right into a quick 22-minute episode. We'll just walk right over. I love it.

Love it. And we'll get everybody back together. We'll get Dr. House. We'll get Tobias. We're not getting fucking Dr. House. Right, they said no. What about when Tobias' hair transplant rejected them? No. No, Graff versus Host. Graff versus Host. David Cross' commitment to every scene. Oh, God damn it. Everybody was funny in that thing, but David...

David was so, and I think David might be the most unlike his character. Could be, yeah. Everybody was unlike their character. Yeah, could be. But very similar in his comfort with being offbeat, you know. Yeah, I know. But he's very offbeat and he's very cool and Tobias is just not offbeat and uncool. Yeah, yeah.

We all know who is closest to their character. Don't say it. And that's our cue. And that's our cue. Mitch, thank you so much for being here. I'm going to pick up the China story, and I'm going to check my email to see if I got about everything's relative. Fingers crossed. See if you got the yes on that. Check my messages. And I will be by your house later to drop off a pie. Bye.

You know what? Because of COVID, we just use the pie slot now, which is around the side. Okay, great. You'll see, it's just pies. You guys put it in a pie slot? You put it in a pie slot? We could fit in a wig fitting when I'm over. That's, well, I would love to do that. John, I'd love to, it's going to sound creepy, but I'd love to get my hands on you. No,

Not creepy at all. Here's the sad part. That doesn't sound creepy at all. Okay, good. I have my fingers crossed. You just can't see it. It's so nice to meet you, though. And my friends, I love you. Love you, Mitch. I love you, too. Love you, love you, love you. Say hello to Mary Jo, please. Yes, I will. Thank you.

This has been the greatest first part of an interview that we've ever done. We're going to pick this up at a later date. We're going to have you back in like six months. We need to have more Mitch Hurwitz in our life. Right on. Yeah. All right, guys. Love you, pal. All my best. Bye.

Guys, I don't know him, obviously, like you do. I love that man. Warm, friendly, hilarious. He's the funniest. He's the funniest, nicest, smartest, most talented. He's the funniest. I mean, I truly would have done that show forever. I'm jealous. Just because of him and because of all the people. 100% of the people that were there in front of the camera and off.

Just a great, great, very fortunate period in my life for sure. Will, what do you think? You hated the whole experience, didn't you? Yeah. Did you not like it? I hated it. I remember every day going onto the lot at Fox and just thinking, every day thinking, I can't believe I get to do this today. That's so great. I love that. Every fucking day was the best. Yeah.

Even the days where, like, I took a dump in Jason's trailer and turned the heat up. I got you back by putting the tuna salad up in your closet you couldn't find for a few months, right? That's true. Yeah.

Did you really do that? Yeah, almost a year in my trailers. And I was like... Screaming at the Teamsters. Can I get a new trailer for God's sake? I never screamed. I never screamed at a Teamster. But it was such a great experience and it was the people. We got to... He led from the top with this just great energy and it was always about...

There was such a safety net there of there was no wrong. There was no wrong answer. It was just kind of felt like you were always just trying to do the funniest version of the scene. Yeah. And you could kind of try anything. He seems like a really fun guy that you'd want to hang out with, that you'd maybe want to go grab a bite. With a bite. With a bite.

I'll allow it by SmartList. SmartList. If you like SmartList, you can listen early and add free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.