"Billie Eilish & Finneas O'Connell"
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Hello, podcast listener. This is SmartList. I am Jason. I have a friend named Will and a friend named Sean. We ask people questions. If that's what you're looking for, you're in the right spot. I mean, like the energy is just...

It's really low. It's deplorable. Honestly. You do it then. Here's your attitude. If you want to do it, and then if you want to do it. I just don't feel sincere if I like, come on with a bunch of energy. Hey, listener, welcome to smart. We're not selling that. That's great. That is great. Try more and sincere more often. I think people appreciate the non-bullshit on this podcast. People appreciate you when you're depressed. Is that what you're saying? It's free. Just deal with my mood today. Uh-huh.

It's an all-new SmartList. Let's go! Oh, look at haircut. Jesus. What, Wills? I think it's just slicked back. What's up, haircut? I did not get my haircut. Congratulations. It'll grow back. Don't worry. I did not get my haircut. I just combed it.

Hey, let me ask you something. When you guys go, because I know you guys go for walks like I do just to get some fresh air and walk during this crisis, this virus we're doing. But whenever I pass somebody on the sidewalk, I pass them and my conversation in my head is...

Okay, did I inhale like their air, even though there's a mask behind it? Did they inhale my air? I had that in the first month of COVID when I'd walk by. I would quietly either hold my breath or quietly just slowly exhale. Yeah, I still do it. Okay, well, hang on. I got to admit something, and this is a true story.

When I pass strangers, four years have been holding my breath. Really? Yeah. Even without a mask? That's germy like me. You're not germy like me. Well, I'm quietly. I'm a closet germaphobe. You're a closet germaphobe? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Are you really? Are you a handshaker normally? Yeah. I mean, I am, but I just, I don't know. And I lived in New York. I lived in New York for over 20 years full time and used the subway. It was my main mode of transport. But I would do a lot of like...

So if you, when like speaking of the subway, when you walk by and you walk into like basically like a urine cloud, do you feel like you're getting some sort of a disease just because, well, I've smelt it. So therefore I have inhaled urine. I think about that all the time. Aerosol. All the time. And now I'm going to have a bladder infection. Is that what you think, Will? I used to think like if you peed in a public area,

Urinal that he could travel through your stream up into your penis from the previous stream. Yeah Well that part is true. That's part is true. Yeah. Oh that party is true. That part is true So then I do have it. That's where I got my STDs. Yeah, boy. I did not know this about you well But here's what you need you Sean, you know what? It's like when you go for dinner with Jason So this is how it goes for just for our listener when you go for dinner with Jason you go into the restaurant, right and

And so what he does is he takes the menu and he goes, okay, great. And he can't do anything. He says, great, let's just get our order in. Because what he has to do is get the order in. Then he pushes back from the table. He walks gingerly to the men's room. And he's like,

And he washes his hands like he's going into surgery. And then he comes out with his hands in the air. No, they're down around the waist because I don't want to embarrass myself. They're like a surgeon. And he comes in. And then if... And I got to kick the chair. Yeah, if somebody comes late to the table and he's already been through that process, they're not getting a handshake, right, Jay? Or I start over. Or you got to do the whole...

But I definitely wash my hands after I've touched the menu. I've shook hands at the table, whatever that nonsense is. But then it's now it's eat time. So I got to go. We're going to boil the hands. I come back. Interesting point. Interesting that the sitting down and shaking hands at the table and greeting other human beings to him is the nonsense at the table. To him, that's the nonsense. I'm there to eat. All right, let's get on with it. Gang? Yeah.

We don't get a lot of duos, but today we got a duo. Ooh. No. Yep. They are responsible for some of the most complicated and original music going today. They are also extremely successful. Usually when people do complicated stuff, it's not that successful. They know how to do both. Their work has brought them. Hold on.

I go to a different part of my notes here. It's Simon and Garfunkel. It's brought them five Grammy Awards, two American Music Awards, two Guinness World Records, three MTV Video Music Awards. Wow. And the youngest to win all the four main Grammy categories, Best New Artist, Record of the Year, Song of the Year, Album of the Year in the same year. Recently? Recently.

Yeah, man. I know who it is. I think I know who it is. You don't have to take your tone up. Well, I'm all fired up about this. They also happen to really love each other because they're brother and sister. Everybody, it's Billie Eilish O'Connell and Phineas Baird O'Connell. No. What?

What? There they are. Hi, boys. No way. Hi. Hi. This is, I mean, I might have to, guys, I might have to get the kids in here. Well, guess what? Look at me, panning left. There's my kid. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, Maple wanted to say hello. Now, Billy, you've worked with Maple before. You guys did a little guest spot on our friend, the talk show host, Mr. Jimmy Kimmel.

You interviewed, she did the Lord's Prayer in Spanish. Do you remember this? Oh. Oh, my God. They're our names.

Hi, Maple. All right, that's the end of that part. We got to get to business, Mapes. All right, you guys. Hi. Thank you very much for being on our podcast. Look at you both there. First of all, it's amazing to meet both of you. I am a huge fan. I remember... Oh, my God. Now I'm freaking out because I'm nervous. Ocean... Ocean Eyes. Ocean Eyes. My godson played it for me on Spotify and I freaked out. I was like... But I have to say...

You know, there's a lot of music out there, a lot of pop music, and a lot of it is, like, fantastic. A lot of it isn't. But when I first heard your music, I was completely blown away. I mean, you and your brother...

Not since the Carpenters, by the way. But I thought that what a way to pivot and not do what everyone else is doing. I mean, it was just so different and so powerful. Do you guys want to hear us talk? Yeah, I was just going to say, listener, we swear they're here. That is such a fair question. But I have a question. I have a question. It was the opposite of the same stuff that's been coming out. So what made you guys...

Like trust yourselves as artists that believe that there's an audience that would want something other than those kind of manufactured pop songs that they so crave. You know what I mean? Because it's so different. First of all, jokes aside, this is a very, very sweet question. So thank you very much. Yeah. I'm going to let you go on. You want me to take it? Keep going. Well, to answer a really sort of like kind question, I think the main thing is we just wanted to make

music together and that was kind of our only big idea. So anything beyond that in terms of like what people it has reached or things that, you know, like compliments people have imbued it with, like, you know, to us, the success was just sitting down to write a song and actually writing one and then trying to record it and that going pretty well. So, you know, I think we've, we've kept our sort of like sights pretty low, uh,

from the beginning in terms of like, let's just do something. And try to make it not suck. Yeah, exactly. Jason can relate to that. He's kept the bar low for so long. That's the key. You never pull a muscle if the bar's nice and low. And as I also say, also never build your high horse too close to the ground. You know what I mean? Because you're going to fall off at some point. If you could, you know, we're in 2021 now.

The last, what, three, four years have been, your head has spun around a few times and probably felt like it was going to come off, right? It's just, you guys have been in, riding this incredible wave. And we asked this, I remember we had Paul McCartney on the show, we were kind of asking him the same thing, which is like, do you have those moments where you go,

where you check in and you kind of look at each other and go, holy shit. Yeah. Does that ever happen or no? It happens all the time. Yeah. All the time. All the time. I mean, you know, in the bath a lot. You know what I'm saying? Or when I wake up. When I wake up. Yeah, we don't take baths together. No. No, God, no. But every time.

Every day. I mean, multiple times a day when I'm doing random stuff, when I'm not, you know. It's very weird to think about. That's an interesting thing to me because, you know, in order to handle success, I would imagine, you need to somehow put yourself in a place where you are not entitled or deserving of it, but that it's appropriate so that you don't have a panic attack when you're out in front of thousands and thousands of people. Yes. Yet...

It sounds like you're maintaining a keen sense of normalcy. So then how can those two things coexist? Like the normal person would get out on stage and go, oh my God, this is, I'm having a panic attack. You know, like how do you compartmentalize? How do you switch between the two? I mean, it's really weird because...

You know, I have a job that basically a lot of it is just people complimenting me up my ass. You know what I mean? Where, you know...

I know how it is. I know. No, but what I mean is that I have a job and a career that is like constantly, you know, people saying I'm great or whatever. And it's really hard to to not let that make you go, wow, I really am great. And then be horrible forever and just be completely self-righteous and, you know, whatever, because constantly it's just.

people putting you on this pedestal that no person should be on really. But then, you know, there's the other side of of completely the opposite of that, of people just, you know, hate your guts. But it's weird. What really humbles both you guys? Like, what are you both terrible at that that keeps that keeps you you remember the fact that you're not a superhero, you're just human and you suck at X, Y and Z. What's X, Y and Z?

Are you guys terrible at cooking? Like not boil water? We can cook. I'm terrible at that. Yeah, you are. Boiling water? Yeah, it's tough. I can't figure it out. It's tough to admit. You can't fucking boil water.

You know what's a better question? Not what do you suck at. What do you wish you were better at? Oh, boy, that's going to sneak it right by them there, Will. I mean, we were both homeschooled so that we don't know any math. Yeah, that's for sure. Oh, wow. We don't know any academics at all. Yeah. I don't understand anything about the word geometry. I couldn't tell you. Like, I don't even know what it means. Sorry. Sorry.

You're fine. You're not going to need it. Look at baby. That's what I'm saying, though. I don't need it. Like, what am I going to do with that? What am I going to do with pie? You know what I'm saying? Tell them, Jason. Tell them your school. I didn't graduate high school. Yeah, I didn't graduate. Well, and Jason, because I acted as a high school, like I spent a fair amount of time on Glee as a young person and I was like...

I feel like my not going to school equaled everyone else going to school and not learning anything. That was the feeling I got. That's how I felt too. All of my friends went to school and none of us knew anything. It wasn't like I knew less. You know what? I got to say, and this is going to be controversial. I have the least amount of... Because I did not graduate from college. I dropped out. And everybody in my family has multiple degrees. And I'm way smarter than all of them. See? They're going to listen to this and be really put out. My dad went to Harvard and I'm way...

way smarter than my dad. I'm always fascinated by musicians like yourself who either did or didn't study music. Did you actually study music theory or anything like that? We actually did, but it was because we grew up in a choir and part of being in the choir was just like doing music theory like once a week.

But it was fun. It wasn't like a, you know, the way that school is horrible for people. No, but there were tests and stuff. But it was... Yeah, it was real. We did learn to read music. But, you know, that's not necessarily... You know, you don't need to do that to make music at all. It just... We, again, Paul McCartney was on. I asked him. I was like, what about this? And did you know that your time signature changes in that? Right. And he's like...

I don't know any of that. And I was like, oh. And he's written symphonies, which is crazy. But it's more impressive. You guys know what you, you hear the music, you know what you like, you know what you're, what you're trying to say musically. And the fact that you can do it without having to sort of intellectualize it is,

you know, it's just raw talent, right? Just that you're kind of relying on that. I mean, you laugh at it and I know, but it's true. I think. I think so. What do I know? Well, thanks guys. I'm just the smartest person in my family. I want to go back to what Jason was kind of touching on, which is where in the world do people like you get the confidence at such a young age when other people your age are like,

It's kind of what Jason was talking about a little bit, which is, you know, like, what do you attribute your ability to perform in front of an audience? I could not tell you. I don't know. I kind of have a feeling of, I think it just depends what type of person you are, but I also kind of feel like...

Some people change and be I don't know it. I don't really understand. I mean, I have a question for you What are there times where you suddenly are either in the middle of a show or you walk on stage? You know what? There was times were like I don't belong up here

That would be horrifying. That's a great question. Well, the only time it happened was, you know, I think at the end of 2019. So after I'd had this enormous year where, you know, I was becoming this, you know, name, which was so random and weird. I, you know, had like a month off of doing shows. It was like Thanksgiving. It was about to be the holidays. And I had this one radio show and I went on stage and the entire show, I felt like...

I was pretending to be Billie Eilish. Swear to God. Like, I had this whole feeling in my body that I was like, why am I doing, and it sounds crazy,

Why am I doing a Billie Eilish show for her? Like, I'm not. I felt like a parody of myself and it was very trippy. Took me many weeks to get out of that weird headspace. But... That's really interesting. But I don't ever feel like I don't belong. You know, being on stage really is the one thing in my entire life that I've actually felt like I belonged in. You know, I had a lot of hobbies growing up and I still do. But...

I realized this recently that I actually never got to a place in any sport I did or any sort of hobby or whatever or class or anything. Even things I loved, I never actually felt like I belonged there. But not in like an, oh, I'm an outcast way. It just, there was something off. And just being on stage was the first time I felt. You can feel it in the music that you guys write. It feels very authentic. It feels like you guys are talking about, well,

what you're feeling, what you're going through, the music doesn't feel like you guys are pressing into some area that you're incapable of doing. It just sounds very personal, both musically and lyrically. And it's

And yet every single song is different. I think we talked about this a long time ago. I think at Jimmy's show. There aren't two songs that sound the same. That's so sweet of you. That's hard to do, I would imagine. Yeah, that's what I was saying at the beginning when everybody on this Zoom was making fun of me. I was trying to get the point across.

That it is. It's such a departure from what was mainstream or what still is mainstream that even if you liked it or you hate it or whatever, you couldn't help but take notice of it because it was so different and in your face and artistic and thoughtful. Yeah, not easy. Yeah, I love that. I remember the first time I heard bad guy and I was like, what is this? There was such a sort of a danger to it, obviously, and there was like this kind of, you know, driving it.

school with my with my sons listening to it and thinking like what who is this you know this is very unusual yeah it's fucking rad man really rad thanks will are you in your batman booth in the living room where where are you we're down in the bat cave right now the jack shack i'm in the jack where we call the jack shack so gross that's horrible it's really gross it's named after sean um

The sort of the that dark sort of subversive nature of some of those songs. That's what I was so surprised to find out that your parents are so close to you guys, too. And on the road and everything, I was like, I was like, oh, so it's it's not unsafe music, you know, for like, it's OK. The parents are on board with it. So so it must just be just the skin of it. Because, you know, my daughter was listening to a lot of like, oh, my God, is this is this too adult for her? Is it is it too?

And then you see the parent and you're like, oh, no, now I got to listen to the lyrics. We did some interview like right before the first album came out or the album, the only one we've put out so far. But right before that album came out, we did some interview on a radio station. And I remember the person interviewing us was like, why is the music you make so dark? Like, why did you make such dark music? And I don't remember exactly what the headline in the news was, but, you know, it was just sort of like you...

You know, it was a dark four years sort of geopolitically. And there was a lot of like school shootings in the middle of our album. And I remember sort of just saying to her like... And like forest fires and shit. Yeah, everything was like burning down and people were being shot at festivals and stuff. And I remember just sort of being so annoyed that...

Yeah, why are you guys so dark? Like, guys, the world is dark, though, you know? Yeah, I remember just kind of being like, we're just sort of reflecting, like, what we're seeing in the world. Right, and sort of it's showing up in your art. It would be hard for it to not, which I was thinking, like, during this lockdown shit, when it's been kind of a dark time, and, of course, we go ahead and start doing a comedy podcast. And I'm like, God, we're so cynical. We don't even know the world around us. The thing is that we never went for a dark song before.

or a cynical song. We were just writing about things we were wanting to write about. And it's the same with this album we're working on. It's just songs. They all have their own world of...

I don't know what I'm saying. So what do you, so because I'm an idiot, what is the category of music? It's not pop. Is it electro pop or do you hate subcategories and categories? I don't know. I don't know. Perfect. It's just good and it's successful. It's just great. Yeah. That's what it is. Is that what you've been doing in this time? So have you guys been working on a record this whole year type thing or? The whole year for real. I mean, I don't know how we would have.

made an album because you know we were planning before covid obviously to make an album and put it out in 2021 but now having had this whole year of break you know yeah

I really don't know how we would have done it with the actual schedule that our year was supposed to be like. We weren't even supposed to be home, you know? Yeah, you guys are supposed to be on tour, right? Yeah. All year. I guess the set list or whatever you call it when you're playing is going to be so fun on the next tour because it's all the songs you didn't get to play on the last one and all the new ones. People will go crazy. People are going to go crazy. Yeah, I can't. Are you guys like so ready to get out there and play? Oh, I dream about it. I just...

It's all I want. You don't want to stay home for another eight months? No, I don't, Ethan. You're talking to a guy in pajamas. I think there was a middle period where there was no vaccine, where there was a kind of a surrendering to the whole thing of like, I guess this is forever. And now that there's like light at the end of the tunnel, it's worse. Yeah. It is kind of worse.

So it sounds like you guys do like being out on the road. You like the bus, you like the hotels, you like the routine of a show and then going to bed late and sleeping late. As long as it's thought through and not punishing, yes. What would it look like if it was punishing? Well, there were the first couple years of me being me. I was 14, 15, 16.

And then 16, touring for the first time. And I was also very depressed because I was 14, 15, 16, as you are. And also, you know, at that level, you really grind. Like, it's the only word I can really come up with. Because you're in a van. You're just doing so much. And I also was new to fame. And suddenly I didn't have any friends because I was famous and I was leaving all the time. And it was weird. It was really weird. So it's just...

I'm really glad that I grew up a little bit and have, you know, found just ways of making it fun. Right. She loves her crew, too. I love my crew. They're all, like, my friends, you know? And I also have a rule I don't go on. Sorry, Will. I also have a rule. No, no, no, no. I also have a rule that I don't go out

on tour straight for like four weeks. Four weeks is like the max that I'll be fully gone without a break. I can come home for like two weeks and go back out, but it's just... When you're on tour for more than three or four weeks straight, it just...

it starts to feel like a chore and I really don't want it to feel like a chore, you know, because I love it and I don't, you know, it's just. No, that's, that sounds really, first of all, that sounds really well thought out and that's a very sort of a mature kind of sober approach to it. Knowing what your limits are and knowing what,

probably if you were to push that, that you would not only would the product maybe not be as good, but you'd start to resent the process a little bit. And you don't want to get into that headspace. And I was going to ask you about your friends. Like you mentioned early on when you're out there, when you're 14, 15, you're probably like you were saying, you,

you're not with your friends and you probably have friends back home, that social aspect must be super difficult kind of disconnecting. So weird. And the big thing was that when you're that age, you don't really know how to talk to grownups and they don't really know how to talk to you. Right. And...

other kids my age that I was friends with back home, like they're not going to pause their life and wait for me to get back and do things with me again. Obviously, nobody should do that. You know, things happen and you move on with your life with or without somebody. But it was really hard for me because I just didn't know how to talk to anybody I worked with. Everybody was, you know, over 40 and I was 14, 15 and I just didn't

It was just not good. It just wasn't. And it was waking up at like 8 a.m. to do radio press and having, you know, multiple shows and like acoustic performances and then on-camera things. Like so many things in a day for a 15-year-old. And then I'd get laryngitis. And then I'd get like the flu and have to keep doing all this stuff. So it did get to a point then where I resented it. And then I just talked shit about it. All I could do was like, fuck fame. I hate being famous. I hate all of this. You fucking hate it. Yeah.

and i couldn't go anywhere and i was 14 not being able to like go out in the world and that was super weird because i wasn't used to it because i was a little kid did you ever resent the fact that phineas could walk down the street uh you guys are both doing this thing you're pulling equal weight equal time equal creative input but phineas gets the anonymity and he gets to walk down the street and live his life normally i did i was jealous for a while but now i'm like i'm

I'm good. Like now I feel... Because now I'm confident in my life and I'm very happy with where it is and I would not take it back or change anything really, even though there were a couple years that were really hard because I just think my life is at a place that I just... I'm so grateful for and very aware of how amazing it is and I really enjoy it, you know? Before COVID and I was doing all these arena tours and stuff, it was just...

pure joy, dude. There's no other feeling. Were you able to rekindle some of those childhood relationships and friendships? Um...

the ones that mattered the ones that mattered yeah for sure it's kind of good you got to drop the ones that didn't matter yeah i'm so lucky i wish i could have dropped so many relationships because we have a couple that didn't they're going to be on the show in about one minute oh my god hey phineas what was that like for you watching your sister go through that and you're going through it together but watching her so much of the spotlight is on her shining so bright and you know when that's happened

He didn't want that shit. Yeah, well, you don't want it, but it's kind of like a helicopter light. Like, you can't get out of it in every aspect of your life. And so she's your sister, and you guys are tight. Yeah. The fame thing was really alarming as a, like... I mean, it would have been alarming as a friend or anything, but as a big brother, it was, like, especially weird because...

We're talking, like, pre-driving years and stuff for Billy, too. So sometimes I'd be like, let's go get lunch. And it would just be this pandemonium in a way that I hadn't thought it would be at all. And, like, I remember one time we went and saw a concert, and it was... Oh, my God. Like, this was before...

You know we'd had like Billy had security or anything and so it was just like her scrawny bouncer brother like I was like the worst The worst security detail of all time and like just all these kids at this, you know venue, so it was kind of alarming Well, it was also alarming then because it was a small level of fame. Yeah, but it had all the moments of

bad parts of fame. This is a really dark thing to say, but like a lot of the most sort of sinister, scary levels of like stalkers and stuff is not like Lady Gaga fame. It's like the first echelon of like a lot of subscribers on YouTube. Because you're not big enough for people to really think you need protection, but you're small enough for people to really get to reach you. And on a very real note, protection is a

massively expensive. It's so expensive. Like until you're making enough money to afford security details, you just can't afford like your own safety anymore. It's very shitty. It's weird. It's really weird. Let me just say this. I'm in Los Angeles and you guys can't see, but I've been working out a lot. And so if you need some muscle. Oh, just like on the weekends maybe? Well. Just do like the matinees, Will. Yeah, I'll do matinees. You guys need security for matinees? Because I do go to bed at 9 p.m.

I have just like a stocked, stupid, dumbass question. Well, then roll it out for sure. Make sure to interrupt the conversation with a stupid question. Go ahead. I want to know. It's a question you've been asked a billion times, I'm sure, but I don't know the answer, which is what were your early influences as far as songwriting goes? Holy shit. Jesus fucking Christ. Guys, I'm sorry. Are we done? Are we done?

We're just auditioning. We're looking for a new third, guys. As a fan, I want to know. I want to know, like, who inspired you as songwriters. If anybody. And then roll it into your favorite color just after that. And if you were a tree. What kind of tree? Willow. I think both of us are weeping willow. I love a weeping willow. Or a cherry blossom. What a great question. Our inspirations growing up...

Please say mom and dad. Many, many, many inspirations. Musical. You mean musical, right, Sean? Like what music do you listen to? Of course I mean musical and songwriting. I said in songwriting. But look, it seems to be a really horrible question that I can't imagine anybody would want to know. Do you start to, when you start getting some of those like old chestnuts, the ones you get in every single interview, do you guys start to make each other laugh privately before?

by answering the same question with a clearly different answer that only you both know is total BS. - That's really funny. - It's bad when we have to do an interview together that's like a real serious one. It's bad. And the questions are always like, oh my God, you know one time somebody asked us how we met?

Come on. That was nuts. That was bonkers. Was the person's name Sean Hayes? Was that the interviewer? Just because I think it's blatant disrespectful to not answer the question, Sean. I was going to answer it eventually. I was going to answer it. Sean went into this a fan. We're going to finish this. That ship has sailed after the first question. I was going to answer it. I was going to answer it.

It's our fault. It's our... Jason and I have been misbehaving. Sean's been side texting me hateful things about the both of you. These guys, their egos are enormous. But go ahead, answer your... Give them your answer. We grew up listening to like a ton of The Beatles. That was a huge part of... Big writing inspiration. Yeah. Lana Del Rey, huge one. Lana Del Rey was big for us.

You loved Green Day. Yeah. You loved a lot of like underground SoundCloud rap. Yeah, I did. That was very inspiring. Aurora. That's cool. See, I think that's interesting. You guys released that first song on SoundCloud, right?

And it just like, what, exploded there? Were you guys watching the numbers tick up? Did you put it up there hoping that it would get traction or was it just like, well, we're done with this. Let's put it up there. Maybe some people listen to it. Exactly that. Second thing you said. It was very odd that it...

got any attention at all. The reason we even made it in the first place was because I danced a lot and my dance teacher was like, Billy, could you make a song and I could choreograph a dance to it? And I thought that was the coolest thing I'd ever heard, even though it wasn't going to be anything. It was just some random choreo.

But I was like, sure. And we... Finneas had this song and we... So, whatever. We record it, blah, blah, blah. And we were gonna just send it to him and not put it up anywhere. But we were like, I mean, it's this song we made. We might as well put it on SoundCloud. Like, for our friends to listen to. There was, like, a free download link on it. There was, you know... We didn't expect anything, though. And...

kind of just in the next couple days it just like grew and grew and grew. But it was a small growth. It was a small growth. It wasn't, it seems like, oh, it went viral and then I became a star. And not at all. It got like a thousand plays. That's how much. And we were just

Over the moon. Your boy Bieber kind of, he launched like that, right? Yeah. By people, fans like you of him. Yeah. Correct? Don't say your boy Bieber. She loves Biebs. Okay, she might, but just to say like you're on the inside. Fuck off, man. Let me tell you something, Arnett. I cried during- It's so demeaning. That Bieber documentary made me cry, okay? And anybody that likes Biebs- Oh, me too. Oh, yeah. I like, so I'll tell you a true story. This is embarrassing because I've done so much stupid shit like this.

I was at the U.S. Open years ago, and they do this thing the day before it starts, and it was me and Will Ferrell playing tennis against Andy Murray and Andy Roddick.

And we were playing, and then there was this kid who was going to play some music right before the thing. It was like on a Sunday. And the kid's like, hey, Will. He was saying to Farrell, he was like, hey, Will, can I get on a, maybe I should do like a Funny or Die video or something. And I said, I remember saying to Will, I was like, hey, Will, you're super psyched that the nine-year-old wants to do a video with you. And it turned out it was Justin.

Oh, my God. Did he do it with him? Yeah, of course he did. I used to watch it every day. He did do it. He did do it. And I was like, and I'm so, I had a similar thing, too, with my buddy. I had his friend. He's like, I'm spinning. I'm a DJ. This is like 1992 in New York. And he's like, are you going to come to our show? He's like, I got a show down at Canal Street. I'm like, yeah, I'm coming to your show, Moby. Oh, wow. Yeah.

And then what about, yeah, you kind of tisk at that stock tip you got on Netflix and the other one for Uber, right? Yeah, because I was like, oh, every movie, every TV show and movie that you want in your house on your computer, I was like, yeah, sure. Sounds like a great idea. Can I ask another fan question? Here it comes, guys. Hold on. Okay, thank you. Thank you. And a lot of these are for my sister in Wisconsin, too. So...

I am a huge James Bond fan. I know you guys wrote the song No Time to Die. So two of my favorite things are going to be on the screen at the same time, James Bond and Billie Eilish. So I love the song. I love, I think it's amazing. But here's the thing that I get to ask you, which I've always wanted to ask somebody who wrote a Bond song, a performance Bond song.

Did you guys have, like, did you have to work with the Bond estate? Like, do they put certain guidelines or influence on how the song should be? Or do they mold it together? Or do they leave you alone and trust you? Great question. That's a great question. Oh, thanks. You're very sweet. I appreciate all the compliments. It's really nice to hear. He's vicious. You don't need to help him. What?

It was very collaborative. The beginning of the process... Which is what somebody says when it's like, wasn't collaborative. No, no, no, it was, it was, it was. They didn't just say, go write a song and it can be anything and then we'll use it. It was, you know, it was, would you guys be open to writing a song? And we were like, um, no shit. And then...

Basically, the steps were they sent us the script from like the first scene, the opening scene. And that's all we got. But it was kind of it kind of showed what the movie was about. And then she kind of Barbara Broccoli kind of gave us a little bit of what the movie was about. And what Barbara Broccoli is the producer of all the James Bond movies. Yeah. And she that was basically what we got. And we.

you know, the Bond songs are a very high standard for us. It's a real honor. And so we wanted to be really good and we...

thought about it really hard and worked really hard on it and... Well, it paid off. It's awesome. Thanks. Well, thank you. It took a couple days of writer's block and then we came through and... Did it have to hit a certain time? Because it's always over the credits, isn't it? The opening credits? Yeah. I think the very last step was sort of like... Making it the right time. Let's make it exactly this many seconds or something. But yeah, I mean, it really was this...

it was like on our, you know, fantasy lifelong bucket list of dreams of like maybe we could do a Bond song. And I think it was one of those things where, so after the album had come out, it was sort of like, what would you be interested in doing? Like, who would you want to collaborate with? And I think our team maybe was expecting us to be like...

you know, say some other musician or something. And we were like, if they're making another Bond movie, like let us know who we could, like who we could beg to do that. And, um, wow. The Apple commercial was, was pretty awesome in that, in that respect as well. I mean, that's, that's a very pedigreed destination for songs nowadays, isn't it? Yeah. Bond and the Apple commercial thing were both

very much like auditions in terms of like they were not an offer. It was like, we'd love to hear what you come up with. That's true. And then once we had written the thing and presented it to them, they said, let's play ball, which was very sweet of them. Jason knows a lot about auditions. Tell them, Jason, about your last audition that you had.

The last one? Before Arrested Development. Tell everybody what it was. Oh, this is for Can You Hear Me Now? Yeah. Yeah. Horizon. I got very close to getting that campaign. And had I gotten it, I don't think I would have gotten Arrested Development. But Jason, if you'd gotten the Can You Hear Me Now campaign, you would now, many, many years later, be the Sprint guy saying, can you hear that? Yeah. And I'd have twice as much money. Yeah. And half as much hair. Twice.

You know what? I do want to swing back to, in retrospect, Sean's question wasn't as terrible as we gave him shit for it, but it's just more fun to give him shit for it than actually. But when you guys, when you went out, when you first started making your record and you start to record, you write a song or whatever, did you have somebody in mind? Like, who are the people you go, like, I hope I sound like, or I hope it's going to be like, like, here are the people that I really love right now, especially, you know,

Like, I'm not a musician at all, but I know that I have five people who I'd want to sound like. That's a good one. That was... Oh. That was... Shut up! It's not Hayes level, but it's... It was a good one. It was one I haven't heard before. Sorry, Sean. No, I get it. I get it. My James Bond one's pretty good, though.

That was more of a thing that was prominent when we were first starting. Like when we first started making music, which was... I was 13 and Phineas was 17, I think. That's crazy to think about. I don't remember feeling that we were that age. Anyway, then it was totally...

you know, because I didn't know my sound at all. I was just like... We were like pure inspiration from others. Sure, yeah. And this is a thing I've always talked about, which is that, you know, people get flack for copying others, and I totally feel that and have felt that a lot. But there's like a certain line of just being inspired versus carbon copy. Do you know what I mean? Because when you're starting out in anything in the world, not just music...

You have to try things out to figure out what you like. It's the same with like personalities. When you're 13, you meet a kid and you're like, oh my God, they're so cool. I want to be more like them. And you do things like them and you talk like them. And you have to do that to become what you are. And that shouldn't be

That shouldn't be pushed away. Like that shouldn't be turned away, I guess. No, we relate to that. We do the, I can't speak for these guys, but I know that as a performer, there are people that I looked up to who I thought were really funny or really witty. I mean, I love David Letterman. I loved his delivery. I love how dry he is.

And, you know, I was always like, I wish, I hope that I can cut somebody off and be really shitty and witty in the way he is. That's awesome. Mission accomplished. I know the exact feeling. But also, you also catch yourself...

You as in anyone. I do it all the time where I'm like, I'm kind of doing too much like this person that I admire. And you have to just be aware that you're gonna end up accidentally copying someone just because you think they're dope. But I think it's just important to remember that you can be inspired by someone. You just can't

completely copy them but you can be inspired and you should let yourself be inspired yeah but but instinct is sort of like the the child of being inspired by somebody right like you can't you can't get an idea to be or do something

unless you have seen it or a version of it beforehand. I mean, it just... There are no original ideas in that way. I mean, Tarantino talks about it all the time. He's a brilliant filmmaker. He's made some brilliant films. And he is also a student of films. Totally. He's inspired by so many different...

Yeah, we listen to so... The quantity of music we listen to is very, very, very high. And I think, you know, one of the coolest parts about, especially working on the second album over the past year, has been that we're deep enough in

into our catalog that were more internal than external. You just kind of build enough of an environment where you're kind of pulling from yourself in an interesting way or your own... I don't know. Do you feel that way at all, Billie? I was not listening. Sorry. What did you say?

What a great answer. I was just saying that like when you... Because we're on your second album that we've been working on and it's like now I feel like it's more like it's just being built upon itself as opposed to external influence. Do you know what I mean? Right. Sure. Yeah. I think so. Absolutely. Well, on that, like do you guys... When you start to write an album or a song, do you...

Do you guys try to start as macro as possible? Like you think about theme or feel or tone and then come up with a melody, then come up with lyrics and you start to get more and more and more micro? Or does it change per song, per album? It really changes per song. Yeah.

It really does. I forget that, like, anytime I'm asked a question about how my writing process goes and our writing process, I always feel, like, stupid answering it because I'm like, but that's how everyone works. And I realized recently that it's not. That people write in all sorts of different ways. And we write in a certain way. And it's...

Usually, I mean, it is random, but it's usually out of, you know, like three ways-ish where it can start with an instrument just playing chords, whatever, coming up with melodies, then coming up with lyrics or it starts with a beat and then it's lyrics and it's melodies or...

it's you think of or it's concept yeah or it's one lyric or it's one melody like that you just it's random do you feel an obligation to have a continuity between all of the songs so that the album is is a whole in its tone in its sound or given the sort of a la carte nature of

the industry now where you don't necessarily have to buy an album you can just kind of buy one song at a time do you do you guys feel like well let's just make each song great and if somebody finds a continuity thread through all them then so be it but that's not the drive I feel the opposite I feel like a desire to not repeat ourselves yeah but also I do think it's important to have a project that feels cohesive yeah it doesn't feel like a bunch of clones

It's just really been important to me to make music that doesn't sound like my other music. I want to make a different song every single time. Obviously, you can't really fully do that 100%, but you can kind of do it. And what I like about this album we're working on and, you know, my debut album or whatever, is that it was very different, but it felt like from the same project. It felt like the same body of work, but...

different enough. I don't know if that's even true, but... I gotta say, I love, I sort of notice that you keep saying, every time you guys say, like, debut album, and you kind of go, or whatever, and you talk about, there's this self-awareness. No, it's really sweet. There is a sort of built-in modesty that you guys have there. Because I know, it sounds weird saying it, and you feel like, if I say debut album...

I'm bragging. I remember one time somebody saying, like, never say the words my and career in the same sentence because you sound like a fucking jerk. And you're like, well, my career. Like, shut up, you asshole. But the truth is, at the same time, it is, you know, it is your debut album and you are working on your new album and there is maybe that thing. I think, anyway...

Jason could learn. You guys are genuinely, sincerely humble and modest. Is a part of that not only just the sincerity of it, the genuineness of it, but is there also sort of like a side benefit of if you stay sort of normal and grounded, then you can appreciate all the crazy batshit

fun stuff that's happening around it. Oh my God, yes. If you get jaded, then it's just like you're yawning on stage. Oh my God, it boggles my mind, the shit that people do. Right, don't make it normal because then it stops being fun, right? Exactly, you stop being able to call people bad shit, you know? Right, right. What is it that gets you guys excited

really nervous. Now, now that you guys are, are very good and accomplished and seasoned at a lot of things that you're doing, are

Are you guys thinking about areas that might get you outside your comfort zone? Well, yeah. Also, just performing, too, to piggyback on Jason's question, because you already performed at the Grammys and the Oscars. Yeah. The Oscars. We were so nervous. We were terrible at the Grammys and terrible at the Oscars. I disagree. We bombed the only two really big performances we were supposed to do. I literally, I can't even look at pictures of me performing. I want to puke. Yeah.

Oh my God. Well, you're good actors then. The Oscars was so scary. The Oscars was the scariest thing because it's the coolest one of them all. Because actors are just classier than musicians. Oh, that's so nuts. It's such a cliche, right? Like actors get nervous around musicians and musicians get nervous about athletes and athletes get nervous about, you know,

It's all grass is always greener. Well, the difference between the Grammys and the Oscars is like everyone at the Grammys walks up on stage and their first thing they say is they're like, wow, I wasn't expecting this. And there's a lot of umming in Grammy acceptance speeches. It's very floppy. And like Oscar, like everyone, you know, I mean, most of them are actors, but even the, you know, sound mixing Oscar is they have written a speech. It's so professional and like classy. Yeah.

that it's very intimidating. And I said that a lot after the Oscars, and then there was articles that were like, "Billy Eilish hates the Oscars!" And I was like, "No, no, no, guys." - Oh, boy. - They're just really scary. And I was not used to that environment. - I've never been to the Grammys, but it does seem like sometimes like a battle of who could care less, you know? - Yeah, absolutely. People don't even show up sometimes. - Right. - Yeah. And they're like, "Oh, and today he's wearing a small Fiat to, uh..." Like, that's his wardrobe? Holy fuck!

It's also in the Staples Center, and there's like thousands of actual audience members, and I think that the Oscars is like, you know, I mean, it's in that, what is it, the Hilton? Oh, the Dolby. But it's very intimate. Wasn't there a question at the beginning of that question? I want to know, yeah, what gets you guys nervous? What do you find that you dread? Like if something is planned on a certain day, and you wake up in the morning, you're like, oh.

Oh, that's so good. Talk shows? It's talk shows for me. Is it really? You're so good on talk shows, though. Take a second look. Hang on, Will. Take a second look. Right in the middle of a compliment. He's a fucking bore. Go ahead. All three of you are great on talk shows. Well, hang on, Phineas. Thank you. Go on. No, yeah, it's the nerves that get me prepared for it. You know, if I wasn't nervous, I'd probably be worse. That makes sense. I get that. It's the anticipation of it. Yeah. Yeah.

But it is funny, though, because you never stop dreading things. I thought that maybe when I got to a certain age or...

or whatever that may be like, I would never dread anything again. And I dread things every day. I just, normal things. I just dread them. And it's weird. But that's that normal part of you that seems so healthy. Don't worry. It only gets worse. I'm sure. But it sounds very healthy. Yeah. But you know what's interesting is like, you know, Jason and Will and I have talked about this where I grew up in Chicago. And so I didn't care.

grow up at all around any kind of Hollywood, Los Angeles. Your voice sounds just like my uncle's voice. Well, he must be gay. I don't know how Sean beat you to that one, Will. Sorry, go on. No, I mean, because he's an uncle. Let's just start there. But no, growing up in Chicago, I would watch, I told Jason, I would watch Jason on TV when I was a little kid and I would watch movies and I would watch all these things and just dream and aspire to

I still, even when I would go on the Universal lot, I would drive just as a year ago. I'd be like, I can't believe I'm driving on the Universal lot. Like it never goes away. So what was it like for you guys to grow up in it? Because you don't have the perspective like I had, which was it's so unattainable. It's so far away. But you guys actually grew up inside of it.

Well, we had that up until we were 13 and 17. So to me, I do feel like I had that because I also grew up a huge fan of like Bieber, for instance. Complete fan, like merch, posters, waiting in line, blah, blah, blah. And just to me, just like you're saying, it was completely irrational. Any idea of...

celebrity in general. I was like, that doesn't happen to people. So just because you grew up in L.A. doesn't mean you would accept it any easier? No. I think that there's like... People think it would. And I think that L.A. definitely... No, not definitely anything. I don't think it really did. I mean, for us, because...

we didn't grow up we didn't have famous parents and our parents didn't have but they were both in the business right sure did that make it feel like sort of your pathway into the into any sort of entertainment was was somewhat uh more sort of natural they validated our dreams and our aspirations but they didn't make them look easy no yeah yeah i think that you know we had like

both our parents worked several part-time jobs because they were in and out of work in terms of acting. So if anything, it just kind of made us feel like maybe this isn't even ever going to work for us. But, you know, I think the other thing that was, to your point, Sean, maybe it doesn't feel weird if someone ends up doing something that wasn't

a fantasy or dream of theirs prior. But like, I wanted to make music from the time I was like 11 to the time I was like 18, 19 when anyone actually started to care about the music we made. And so those years of like, I know exactly what I want to do. I just have no idea if I'll ever really get a chance to do that. Right. We're very daunting.

But it felt completely unrealistic. Yeah, exactly. I used to listen to Hall of Fame by what's-a-go-to-standin' in the Hall of Fame.

And the world's gonna know your name. And I used to just listen to that and be like, damn, that'd be so crazy. Like, it'd be so crazy if people knew your name. And I was like, I would listen and be like, there's like, that doesn't happen though. It's just, it didn't feel like anything that could ever happen. And it still is crazy that it happened. It's crazy.

Does it feel now like you thought it might if you guys were ever able to get as successful as you dreamed of becoming? Now that you're there, does it feel like you thought it would be? It's way better. It is better. Oh, that's great. That's great. At this point. What is that? What part are you guys really, really digging? Honestly, the parts that I hated three years ago.

Those are the parts that I'm digging now. Fascinating. I don't know really how that works. What are those parts? What are those parts? Yeah. Fame in general. I used to just despise it. I hated everything about it. I hated...

being recognized. I hated not being able to go out. I hated, you know, not being able to post a place because then people would show up at that place wherever it was because they'd just figure out where it was. I really hated everything about it and I felt stupid because I was like, wow, I have this thing that like,

is really cool and people would kill for this and I don't like it at all. And, you know, I was also forgetting that I was really, really depressed and that can make you hate almost anything. And I don't really know what changed, but I fucking love fame. I gotta tell you. I just, I love it. Is it because you're more comfortable with it because you feel more worthy of it or you like what you're doing with it or...

I definitely like what I'm doing with it, and I feel more confident in it. I think that there were some years...

like the years I'm talking about where I felt like I had to prove myself all the time. Yeah. Especially to kids like I grew up with. Like we had this, you know, we have this like tradition of like going to our friend's house for like what, 4th of July or whatever. And there was just a couple years where I felt so lame because I felt like people thought of me as like a joke. Like people that knew me my whole life and I felt like every time I went and saw people I used to know, I had to like prove that I was...

doing pretty well, but nobody believes you because, you know, they don't think about it because why would your friend that you knew since you were a kid suddenly... Of course, I understand that. Making that leap from feeling weird about it and not knowing how to deal with fame and getting to a place of comfort, I mean, there's a whole... Before you guys were born, you two did that record. After Joshua Tree, they did that pop record, which was basically...

Bono's whole sort of struggle with fame, and he played a version of himself, and I think that a lot of that was him trying to figure out all of a sudden he's Bono, and he's doing these great things in the world, and then you get to a place, and now when you talk to Bono, he's very comfortable with who he is. Yeah, because I was just going to say, it's so much healthier, Billy, to say, I fucking love fame, than not. And you've processed it quicker than a lot of people do. I feel like I can say it because I hated it.

And so when I say it, I'm not trying to be like, I'm so cocky and I'm, you know, because I have fame. But it's like, I think that we should be aware that and you guys too, like we should be aware that we have an incredible thing that we get to do.

Yeah, you're very privileged. Look at Jason. The pandemic is like for Jason, it's been terrible because he hates having to wear a mask. He doesn't want to cover his face because he wants people to know it's him. And it's fucking killing him. So I got a mask made with the bottom half of my face from a photo so I can wear the mask. His happiness is pegged to, yeah. So in five years, in 10 years, 15 years, you guys still making albums that you love? Do you see yourselves...

into producing other young artists and launching them. I mean, I know Phineas, you do a lot of that. And you guys have hit so much success so young. Do you think about mapping it out? Like, Jesus Christ, we keep this thing going for another 30 years. We're only 50. Not everybody has the mind of a serial killer, Jason. LAUGHTER

Like, what do you do? Where do you... It's so white hot already. I try not to think about it. I really have a strong feeling of wanting to be... To have longevity. Yeah. We think about longevity a lot. I think, you know, Billie is very multi-talented and has a great eye for...

visual media and stuff, I think we've talked a lot about how our favorite art, like almost no one has like any more than five good albums. Most people have like one good album and then no one has more than five good albums, I think. And so we kind of are like, Except Drake. Except Drake. Yeah.

An unlimited supply. Yeah, he does. He just keeps going. When you're going to listen to music that's not your own, who are you listening to right now? Like, who do you... A lot of the Carpenters, honestly. Really? Wow. Come on. You don't know what you're missing. You don't know what you're missing. They're amazing. We love the Carpenters, just not all the time. So currently, I've been listening to a lot of Julie London. She's just been setting the mood for me somehow. Also, Arlo Parks just put out an album that's really good. Yeah. But...

honestly been just, I've just been replaying the unreleased songs we have. Cause I really like them. Um, and I'm very happy with them and they're good. When do those change from unto released? When the album comes out. Well, when's that Billy? I can't tell anyone. Come on, make news. I can't tell you. Um, you guys have been super generous with your time. No, Will, that's the end of it. You guys, uh, we've, we've exceeded our promised hour. Um,

It's been so fun, though. We love you both deeply, immensely. We love you guys. You guys are such huge talents. Really exciting to meet you guys. We're big fans of you guys, so this is very exciting for us. Even after this talk? Yes. I listen to Smart List. My girlfriend and I both listen to it all the time. Come on. And because I feel like we've cyber-bullied Sean on

on this episode I wanted to close with my favorite thing Sean's ever said which is during like an ad read at one point Jason you go yeah I just had an energy bar and Sean goes oh when does that kick in I thought that was a fire that

That made me like howl laugh. That really killed me. That's so funny. There's a lot of cruelness that gets thrown around this Zoom chat. Well, it's cruelty. And there's your education wearing its ugly hat again. So thank you.

You guys, you're the best. Guys, thank you. It was so exciting to meet you for me truly and for all of us. I just really, really, truly, honestly, a huge fan. Thank you, guys. Thank you for doing this. Continued success. Push that album out soon, please. We'd like more music. We'll try. We love you guys. Thanks for having us. Such a treat. Bye, you guys. Thank you.

wow now listen you know i'm a parent i hope my kids grow up to be like that and that they still get along and they're productive did we talk about this before would you guys ever homeschool or did you or i i've got my own scars of sort of like not being involved in a regular school as a kid and sort of losing out on the social structure of of it all that i i would not but that's only because of my own baggage i'm you know i'm sure it's great i'm sure it's fine but

Right, that's interesting. Will, would you ever homeschool Archie and Abel? No, this is the closest we've come to it, obviously, during the pandemic. It's not going well? Well, no, I mean, it's going as well as it's going for everybody. It's very, very trying, and I think that what we're missing is...

that socialization and you know, you can't stress enough how important that is. I think for my kids, Billy and Phineas, they seem, but they've turned out great. I know. I know. So it's like, but like, where do they go to like,

How would you meet a boyfriend or a girlfriend if you're homeschooled? I don't know. And they're like four years old. He's like four years older than her, too, or something, right? So, like, they weren't... Like, my kids, it's different for them, even during this pandemic, because they're so close in age, um...

You know, a lot of their friends are very similar and, you know, of similar age. It must be tough when you're a younger sister and your brother's four years older than you. Yeah. That's a huge... You know, you're a freshman while your brother's a senior in high school. Yeah. And that's a big gap of age. How do you do school together? Yeah. Yeah, I've always wondered that. I just... I think it's fascinating. Like, I read this about Billie Eilish and her parents and that they just...

constantly reinforced creativity around the house. So you couldn't get that at a public school. I mean, yes, you can in certain, you know, programs and stuff, but it's constant at home. It's always constant. I'm sure they're reaping the benefits of having such a stable upbringing and such a close and healthy relationship with their parents that they're in this, you know, this cauldron of anxiety or temptation or, you know,

you know, that they've got that solid home base is probably really helpful for them. If I had kids, and I saw that as an example, I'd be like, yeah, maybe I should homeschool. But we do have, like, we have, the three of us have mutual friends. I can think of a couple people who have, who homeschool their kids, and it really works out for them. And it so happens that because of how

how much they're in the public eye and how well known they are that it really works i mean apart from the fact that it worked for them in terms of travel and stuff because of work but also because of that level of of you know notoriety and now because of covid everybody's homeschooling yeah and so like first of all it's served them well during covid because they're like we know what we're doing in this environment so the last year and a half has been good exactly and uh

But also, you know, they've figured it out. Jason, did you know Billie to bring her on the show? And by the way, great guests. Thank you very much. Unbelievable guests.

I met them at Kimmel Show, and they were super complimentary about Arrested Development, and they liked Ozark. So, Sean, Arrested Development is a TV show. But let me finish. Let me finish. But what they really loved was Cheers. So, Sean, you –

Yeah. Okay, great. And how long, Sean, were you on Shears? So, you know, I was a first-of-day player. Yeah. And then I did a really good job. Expanded him to the postman. Oh, you did the post guy. Oh, man, I love that. How are you? Ah, Normie. Hey, Normie. Norm. Norm. Anyway, Billy and Finn were fantastic, weren't they? Yeah, they're an inspiration to every brother and sister out there. Mm-hmm.

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