Where has all the quiet gone?
26:39 Share

Discussion keeps the world turning. This is Roundtable. You're listening to Roundtable with me, Steve, and I'm joined today by Nyo Hong Lin and Lai Ming in the studio. Coming up, when you go to a movie, are you one of those noisy ones watching? Well, if you are, you're probably just talking, I would assume. Oh my gosh, did you see that? So scary.

You're talking but others may sing? Well for one film they do, but an American theatre is saying no singing for you. After that, want to remove a negative review for a restaurant? Challenge accepted, say overseas Chinese restaurant goers. They have found a creative way to let their true feelings be known. Stay with us to find out how.

You can find us at Roundtable China on your favorite podcast platform. And if you have a question worth exploring, we would love to hear from you. Send it to us at roundtablepodcast at qq.com. One more time, roundtablepodcast at qq.com. Roundtable podcast, that's all one word. Emails, sure, we like those, but we like your voice even more. So if you can send us a voice note, it is our favorite way to hear from you. Next on Roundtable.

Television, radio, live streams, podcasts, ringing phones, the ping of incoming emails and texts, conversations with coworkers, family and friends, lawnmowers, garbage trucks, airplanes overhead. We live in a world of perpetual sound. Listening to my voice right now is included in that group, I suppose. Even our homes, that's our sanctuary. They can be inundated with the sound of crying children or food cooking. Pfft.

Although I do love that sound, I admit. Vacuums, vacuuming, you name it. It can be challenging to find a few moments of quiet. But one theater, movie theater, in the United States has declared that enough is enough with the release of the film adaptation of the musical Wicked,

The theater company has announced a ban on singing along to popular songs in the film. Why did they do this? And is it true that finding silence has become almost impossible? What do you think, guys? When you go to a movie theater, are you one of the talkers? Are you one of the people, Lai Ming, that is commenting, oh my gosh, did you see what happened there? No, no, I don't do that.

Not only that. I hate it. Yeah, I hate it. I hate it too. And I cannot even stand when people, they don't talk. They just turn on the screen light. It disturbs me as well. So no, no talking. Silence in the theater. How about on the topic of just singing in general? Do you enjoy that? Do you like going out to the song rooms from time to time? Used to. Not anymore. Singing karaoke, you mean? Yeah. Or singing in the bathroom? Well, either or. No. No.

No talking in the theater, no singing in the bathroom. A very quiet Lai Ming. Let's get into it. What's going on here in this situation? Well, first of all, the film in question is the adaptation of the musical Wicked. And I think I've seen Wicked here in China as well. Have you? I tried to see it so many different times and every time. So what they would do is they would announce...

The tickets were going on sale. I tried to buy them and they were gone immediately. This is one of the more popular musicals around the world. Yes, it is a really popular musical. And I believe the one I watched was the original English version. And here it has been adapted to a movie and it was on AMC Theater. And AMC Theater said that

Because, well, actually, we all know the musical has a number of really good songs. And when people go to the musical performance, it's common for audience to sing along with the cast occasionally and depending on which one you go to. I believe my experience was quite nice. No one around me was singing. You wouldn't have even enjoyed that. Did you watch it in China? Yes, yes, in China. Maybe fewer people could speak English or sing in English. That might be the reason.

Anyways, for this movie though, AMC Theaters said that audiences at the music, well, might be singing. So they issued a plea to audiences coming to watch the movie, no singing. Actually, they are very, very strict. It says that no talking, no texting, no singing, no wailing, no flirting, and absolutely

no name calling enjoy the magic of music yeah i saw i saw the clip so this is a video this is what they show at the start of the film you know typically a movie in a theater they'll show advertisements before the movie starts and the fire escape yeah yeah show you the exit strategies um but here they showed this video and they cut together scenes from the movie

along with the text that you just said. And the final message was, yeah, enjoy the magic of the movies and no singing at all. And for those of you who really, really, really want to sing, actually there is interactive singing along shows provided. Actually, they will be offered in roughly 1,000 North American cinemas beginning on Christmas Day. So you can still choose the

singing along kind of versions. - The karaoke screenings. - Yeah, which is kind of a good idea, I guess. So they've got the no singing screenings of this film and then the screening where you can go and sing along with it. - Wonder which one would be more popular. - I'd want to go to the singing one, I would think. It'd have more energy inside. What do you think though, Lai Ming? It seems like it's becoming more difficult to find quiet places.

- Not if you stay within the premise of my existence.

I'm quiet. You're okay with that, huh? Well, they did a study. It's kind of an ongoing thing. Matthew Mickelson, he's a sound expert. And his volunteer team, he works for a nonprofit called Quiet Parks International. And I've not heard of this group before. But what they do is they work hard to make sure that quiet places around the world remain quiet.

quiet. They travel worldwide and they find spots that are still free from human created noise pollution. And what's interesting, I thought, was to be certified a quiet place. An area has to have at least 15 minutes without noise. Hmm.

And that's really, really, really difficult to find anywhere these days. Not even birds flapping their wings or just human noises? They define it a little bit differently. So they say that the sounds of nature, for example, they're not talking about complete silence here. You know, the sound of nature is okay.

it would be, you know, birds singing or waves on a beach or wind or trees or something like that. Anything that is the equivalent of library level chatter, if that makes sense. Wow, that's really strict. And according to this really strict rule, actually, they say that 90% of children will not experience natural quiet in their lifetime.

That's what they say. That's what they say, and it's a very weird estimation. How did they come up with that? How? But I kind of get what they're talking about, right? I mean, if we think about our own lives, you know, how many hours or even how many minutes of a day do you spend in absolute silence? You both have young kids, so I'm guessing the answer is zero, right? No, none, zero.

Well, not during the hours when I'm awake, of course. But when I fall asleep, I can't tell. But I can understand why we're talking about it and why we're basically chasing after absolute quietness. I didn't used to think I need it. Do you guys realize that there is a small, really dark room in our building? Actually, on our floor. Yes, it's a storage room. And the light, I think...

I think it broke out, so it needs to be repaired, but I do not want it to be repaired because when I enter that little room, because the room is windowless, and when I enter the room, close the door, I enjoyed five seconds. Being interrogated.

I enjoyed five seconds of absolute darkness. It was like no light at all. And absolute silence. And absolute silence. And I enjoyed it quite so much. So I think people do need a little bit of quiet in their life. Yeah. It's interesting, the topic, I think, about absolute silence, because we never really experience it.

So what they say is that in short bursts, it can be really therapeutic for you. But if it's too long, then it messes with your brain because it does make sense. You know, that statistics, you know, take that statistic with a grain of salt. I don't know how they came up with that 90% of the world's children will never experience silence. It has to do with the right of urbanization, though.

Well, yeah, but that's what I mean though is that if we grow up, particularly if you grow up in a city, how much quiet, how much silence do you actually get to experience on a daily basis from almost the minute you're born until who knows when? Yeah, there's the sound of ventilation. There's the sound of cars driving downstairs. Yeah, but silence is good for us, correct? Not so sure. It's not good for radio. That's fair.

But they did do a study from the World Health Organization and the European Commission's Joint Research Center.

And they did conclude that a steady dose of noise pollution could lead to higher blood pressure and fatal heart attacks. They have a study for everything, don't they? There was another one done that found rates of cholesterol and hypertension in individuals regularly exposed to loud noises at work. I guess those would be extremely loud noises, not just the average sounds of your office.

It really depends on the quality of your hearing because I know of a friend who can hear things that regular people can't hear. What do you mean? Even the sound of ventilation, the sound of the air ventilation. Normal people wouldn't notice that. We take it for granted. Whereas to her, it's a serious issue. It makes her headache.

Definitely. Actually, we also see another study published in JAMA Internal Medicine found that spending some time each day in silence, especially in mindfulness meditation, reduced insomnia and fatigue in older adults as well. So yeah, I think it is beneficial to both our physical health and mental health.

Silence, we always crave it, don't we? We even have expressions in English, I just need a moment's quiet.

you know away from the kids or what have you yeah but yet when it comes to conversation with each other we find silence to be insanely awkward and i look this up this is from science of people website and they say that ideal pauses in conversation i've never thought about this before ideal pauses in conversation are about a quarter to a half a second which is just enough time to take

to take a breath before you start speaking. After that, a pause can get awkward when it stretches to four seconds. So they say that one second, two seconds, even three seconds is a pause in a conversation is okay. But when that fourth second comes, then that's when the two parties will begin to feel awkward.

But then again, it depends on the language that you're speaking. I was talking about their research on the English language, but they found differences in other languages. So for English speakers, there's usually no more than four seconds of silence in a conversation. But they said that in a conversation in Japan for Japanese speakers, commonly silence can reach eight seconds.

In the conversation before the other person replies. I can't stand that. We can't play out for you on air because we are obligated to speak. That's true, too. To keep the volume going. And I think different languages definitely would have different preferences. I think if we're Chinese people, for example, especially if we're on a phone, we cannot see each other. We do not know whether or not the other party is...

can hear us and receiving the message well. We would even give other people who are speaking a hint. It's like we're talking over each other without talking. It's like when Lai Ming's talking, I would constantly say, mm-hmm, mm. Is that Chinese culture or is that just... Oh.

It's people acknowledging that I see what you mean. Yeah. I'm still following, even though I don't plan to interject. See, that's interesting. So in Chinese language culture, that's not seen as interrupting or rude if you're talking at the same time the other person's talking.

If you're talking, you just, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Then it's fine. And also if we take the situation out of the scenario of conversation to, for example, public speaking or to stand up comedy, then I think silence can be very powerful. Yeah, I think so too. And music is another example, right? Sometimes that space in between two notes can be just as powerful as playing the note itself. And I think in speaking too,

The correctly timed pause can work to your advantage somehow, some way. It's just tricky. You can't make the pause go on for too long. Do you know why our brains overreact to science? This goes way, way back to hunter-gatherer times. Again, this is from the same study that I was talking about before. They say during our hunter-gatherer times, rejection from the community...

was extremely dangerous for an individual. So at a primal level, the uncertainty of silence to our brain feels like rejection. And that fear of rejection leads people to panic. And that's why people freak out.

according to their study. Do you think so? When it gets too quiet between two people. Sure. I was thinking along a similar line because as somebody who grew up in a family where, well, where the parenting can be a little too strict, I'm used to speaking all the time just to sort of like test the language

temperature of the water or something or to feel the vibe of the room if I'm talking and nobody is responding then I get a sense that maybe nobody wants to listen then I should stay quiet and so that sense of insecurity is somehow my explanation but of

according to your theory, then that's the sense of insecurity of mankind, obviously. You can actually use that for your advantage. One, you're asking someone a question and they're giving you a really short answer. Do not reply. Do not say anything. Just look at

them, steer them down with a little bit of silence. They will definitely say more. Isn't that what they say about business negotiations as well? If they ask you a question during the negotiation, don't feel the need to immediately speak or answer the question because they will feel the pressure to speak first if you don't talk at all. It's interesting.

This is kind of cool. I was looking up places, you know, this movie theater, AMC in the United States, they don't want you to sing during the movie because they want you to enjoy the magic of the movies and their words. But do you know where else they recommend a public place that we should be quiet? Well,

Well, actually, many places here in China now, I don't know if it's this younger generation request, quietness a bit more than our generation. For example, on a high-speed train, actually, you would have certain carriage saying that you're not allowed to talk. And if you're taking a kid, maybe avoid that specific carriage.

If you're watching something on your iPad or your phone, try and tune it down or wear a headset. Yes, and also libraries for sure. You're not encouraged to talk to each other in a library. But what about this? The zoo.

Ah, that is a good one. They did a study. It was published in Ethics and Science and Environmental Politics, and they suggest that silence might be the key to transforming how we experience and appreciate zoo animals. So what they did was they...

They tested this out. They had a group come into a zoo with no noise whatsoever among the customers themselves. No talking, no banter, no nothing, just silence. Only enjoying the sounds of nature, the sounds of the animals as well. And the people who, when they finished their zoo experience, they said they enjoyed it so much more. And they also said that they'd be willing to pay a more expensive price for a quiet zoo experience. That's interesting because-

Yeah, looking back on my visits to the zoo, I always remember people exclaiming when a baby monkey does something. I mean, that's sort of...

My takeaway. And that experience is defined by human reaction to animals rather than animals. Fair enough. And I don't buy it. I think it's just because they have never experienced before. They experienced the quiet zoo touring, and that is why they're finding it so fascinating. Maybe. Yeah, maybe. But if every zoo was silent, they might not enjoy that as much.

Well, as Lai Ming said, if you're looking for silence, you've come to the wrong place because you're listening to Roundtable. And coming up next, if you're worried about your negative restaurant review and the fact that it might be taken down, perhaps you can follow the lead of these creative foodies. Looking for passion? How about fiery debate? Want to hear about current events in China from different perspectives? Then tune in to Roundtable, where East meets West and understanding is the goal.

Are you a restaurant review lever? Good or bad, do you want your feelings about the food that you've just eaten to be known? Well, for those that feel inclined to leave a negative review, they run the risk of their review being removed. But there must be a way to circumvent this problem, yes? Indeed there is, and overseas Chinese restaurant goers...

have cracked this code. This is a very cute story. Tell us about it. Well, a couple of years ago, Google reviews introduced an update allowing businesses to hide negative reviews. This is similar to what Chinese rating platforms have been doing in recent years, although the precise nature of how it was done

on Google reviews as compared to how it was done on Chinese platforms was, I was not, I'm not very clear. In the Chinese case, there seems to be a jury among restaurant goers and review leavers, and they are asked to verify certain bad reviews being thrown at certain restaurants. And if they agree that this is

totally unjustified and unreasonable. They can be hidden. Yeah, we talked about that on Roundtable on one show. And that's a human review process, right? Not conducted by AI or anything like that. No. Whereas...

On the face of it, I think Google review really gives a lot of freedom to businesses to hide negative reviews. Otherwise, I don't think the response from Chinese restaurant goers is justified. I mean, they must hate the system, the rule so bad that they are looking for ways to circumvent it.

So what examples do we know of where they're trying to circumvent this? Well, they leverage their language advantage. Not every restaurant owner understands Chinese, so they could leave Chinese comments there. And in cases where...

smart restaurant owners think of ways to crack the code written in Chinese language. I'm sure there's AI that can be employed to translate some of the comments that Chinese people are leaving. So they

They added an extra layer of coating. In some cases, I see a very, very smart way to do it. What they do is some of the Chinese restaurant goers, they use rice powder.

form a picture of Chinese characters. Right. They'll spell out the Chinese character. They use food, right? They're using the rice grains to spell out, to write out words in Chinese and then they take a picture of that and they upload it.

Yes, we all know language evolves and develops all the time. And for certain 20 words or a certain way of saying things, especially we talk about the Chinese language being the kind of language that has limited number of

yet we have a lot of different characters sharing the same sound. So it's easy, really easy for a Chinese speaker to use the kind of characters that mean nothing when you put them together. Yet if you can read them out loud, it means something like, it's really bad, do not come to this restaurant. So that is another way. That's the way they're doing it. What's your response to this? Do you find it cute? Do you find it inappropriate that...

You know, these are a lot of the times these are students who are doing this, correct? You know, this isn't a 65-year-old CEO of a company going out for lunch and then spelling out don't eat here with his rice grains. Yeah, but what's your reaction to this? I think that's sweet. It means Chinese people looking out for fellow Chinese students. From their perspective, I believe they must think that they know Chinese

how a food must taste on the Chinese palate. And they feel obligated to warn their fellow Chinese people about it because, well, they are leaving reviews on Google review. So they must be traveling overseas. And if I'm traveling overseas, I only get, you know, a few options to choose.

eat out. I mean, there's only lunch and dinner. And I'm only going to be staying there for a few days, so my options are limited. If I wasted on something that my fellow Chinese people have found out to be disgusting, then yeah, I'll be very grateful if I've been warned ahead of time. Yeah, it's like a...

It's like a travel guide of sorts, a restaurant travel guide for future tourists coming to wherever they are. And for some reason, I find it makes a lot of sense because people from different regions would have different tastes for food. It's like one man's meat is another man's food.

You don't really know, but we would share a similar taste. For example, this is a really nice, let's say, Korean restaurant for Korean people. Yet for Chinese people, they just really don't like it. So when you leave a comment in the way that only Chinese native speakers would be able to understand, you do not...

basically jeopardize the appetite for other customers. That's a great point. It's a very specific niche negative review. Secretive message. Yes, coated with many layers of the onion.

When you guys go to a restaurant and the food's not good, do you complain about it at the time? You know, I always found that leaving a negative review at a restaurant is kind of a very passive-aggressive way of dealing with your unhappiness at that particular time. I've always preferred, if I really don't like it, to say something at the time. I'm not much of a review lever myself. Well, leaving

Leaving a review is like doing a public service for the fellow foodie going to the restaurant. So I have no problem with that. It really depends on the situation. If this is a restaurant that I enjoy, that I plan to come back, then I would love to leave something for them to notice and so they can improve.

Whereas if this is a one-time visit, then I would never come back. Then I wouldn't bother because it takes extra time. Why would I even bother? But don't you feel guilty if someone else goes to the restaurant that you already discovered to be bad?

- You said it yourself, somebody's meat can be somebody else's poison. - Yeah. - Okay, fair. - Well my poison could be somebody else's meat. - I mean, I don't even look up restaurant reviews a lot of the time. I prefer to just go and figure it out for myself because I've never been someone, I know for some people when they go to a restaurant and they really don't like it, it makes them very upset.

because they feel like they've wasted their time and wasted their money. Whereas me, I still try to enjoy the experience and say to myself, okay, well, that wasn't my favorite, and I guess I know I'm never going to come back here again. So I tend not to leave a review, and it doesn't really bother me that much. Well, I'll look a little bit and see the bad reviews and see whether or not it's personal. Whether or not they found cockroaches in the dishes. Exactly. So if it's not clean, if it's really...

Slow, if it's really loud, no quiet place for me, then maybe no. Yeah. I guess it depends. You know, I've said things in the past to the wait staff before and other times, I think you're right. I've said nothing and it just depends on what that restaurant is to me. If it's next to my workplace and I'm going to be going there a lot, I'll probably say something, but if not...

Well, then maybe not so much. Good chat. All right. That will bring us to the end of today's roundtable. Thank you so much, Lai Ming. Thank you. Thank you very much, Niu Honglin. Pleasure. And thank you very much for joining us on our show today. Don't forget, you can find us at Apple Podcasts at Roundtable China. For today, I've been Steve, and we do hope that you will join us again next time.