39: Operation Paperclip | Red Thread
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A scrawny man sits in a dark room surrounded by military figures. The words Operation Paperclip bounce around the darkness. They'd already brought over the rocket scientists, physicists and engineers, but now they were talking about a new front.

We've got the tech, but we need someone who can do more. We need someone who can create magic. We need you to lead this." Before he knew it, the man was set up in a lab of his own, creating things more important than rockets and bombs. It wasn't about science or weapons or military might for him. It was about creating something that could inspire hope, imagination, something that would have a real global impact.

From the recesses of his mind came incredible creations. He bore them names. Within months, Mickey, Donald, and Goofy became household names, and so too did the greatest recruit in Operation Paperclip history, Walt Disney. I'm pretty sure that's how that went down, right? That's how Walt Disney founded Disney. Yeah, I appreciate that. You got it, bud.

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, it's Red Thread. How's it going? It's the show where whatever I talk about at the start of the show has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the show, usually. And it's just an insight into the lunacy that goes on in my brain. But this week, you know, it is kind of connected, after all. We are talking about Operation Paperclip this week, boys. We kind of alluded to it last week. We talked about it a little bit in last week's episode with MKUltra, right?

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. We've talked about before. And also anyone who's followed me, I rant about this randomly all the time. Also, I shaved for those who are just looking. I like it. I like it. I like it. Anyone who's a hater, it can fucking take, they'll have to go through me before they can get it. I appreciate that. I was inspired by my favorite cowboy slash guest of the red thread. So that means a lot. Yeah. Appreciate it.

You do. You look very handsome. It does suit you. Thank you. Thank you. I thought, well, I was like, I want to change it up a bit. I've always liked the cowboy, the gunslinger look. So we'll see how it goes. And also my hair grows back. Like, like if I waited one week, it would be back. Right. So it's not like a permanent change or anything, but I'm kind of feeling it. My face feels cold all the time. It hasn't touched air in five years. So this is strange, but.

Yeah. I've always like, what's touching me? It's weird. It's strange. Usually when people shave their beards, especially when you've had the beard for a while, you have that period of baby face. But no, you dodged that. You still look masculine.

Isaiah. Thank you. Well, the main reason I wanted to try it is because I lost all the weight. And then my wife pointed out, she was like, you haven't seen your face since you've lost weight in it. And I'm like, oh, well, time to change that. And I'm vibing with it right now. I might go back. We'll see. Dude, you unveiled the hammer chin. You've got a hammer chin. You've got a beautiful chin. I can mog on people now. Yeah, exactly. It was beautiful.

It is beautiful. You should start, instead of wearing Hawaiian shirts, now you should start wearing like cowboy dusters. Really? I should. I should. However, we are overlooking that with the aviators and the Hawaiian shirts and like an Uzi, it is perfect Miami Vice. It is like the whole, the whole nine, especially with the long haired stuff. Yeah, you could look like a coke dealer. I'm a fan of many flavors.

Actually, you know what? As soon as we're done with this podcast, I'm grabbing a shotgun and I'm testing it out. I'm seeing what it looks like. You're moving to Miami, baby. Yeah, it's time. It's time right now, right before the hurricane. Yeah, right now, right before the hurricane. It's the best time to get down there. Yeah, this is going to, well, this video is going to come out. So at the time of recording, it's pre-hurricane. I don't know how tragic the hurricane is. So if we just made a joke about a very tragic and intense one, that is Jackson's fault. I didn't do it.

Yeah, I did it on purpose. I'm able to see into the future. I know how ridiculously depressing that hurricane is going to be for Florida, and that is why I made the joke. You can leave your comments blaming me below for the hurricane. As always, it's the Australian. You can't trust those people. No, it is a- I don't trust them. It looks like they're pretty serious. I mean, this episode is going to come out well after the hurricane hits, so-

Yeah, there's nothing really we can say about it, but yeah. Retro, just know before, God bless you all, stay safe. Stay safe retroactively. We're saying stay safe now so that you can hear us say stay safe after you've hopefully been safe. We were telling you to stay safe, so if you weren't safe, it's your fault for not listening. Yeah.

Yeah, Operation Paperclip. Before we start, this episode was brought to you by me, Undies, and AG1. More from them later on in the show. Hey, I'm drinking AG1 right now. Hey, look at that. Hold it up for the camera. Hey, look at that. AG1. Hey, I finished it. AG1's solid. I like AG1. They're great. I do like it. And me, Undies, I'm wearing them right now. I can't hop up and show you them, but I am wearing them right now. Do it, coward.

I can't rock that look, sadly. Completely naked apart from underwear look. But yeah, no, MeUndies is very comfortable and AG1 is very delicious and good for you. So big thank you to them. They support the show a lot. If you love Red Thread, the best way to support it, other than subscribing and hitting the bell and recommending it to your friends, families, everyone, is by showing the sponsors some love. So you'll hear more from them later. But yeah, big thank you to those who do check them out.

Uh, you, Isaiah, you said you'd rant a lot about, uh, Operation Paperclip? Oh, yeah, it comes up all the time. Any, like, even if the conspiracy or whatever I'm talking about doesn't have to do with, like, um, Operation Paperclip, anytime you just want to talk about, like,

you know, government indoctrination or like, um, you know, psychological operations against people, you know, they spend all this money and time and investment to, um, portray, uh, the Nazis as enemies, unless it benefits them, then suddenly they're their friends. Uh, and then like not telling the public about it, trying to be secretive and just, you know, the, the fact of like the people that did evil things are now welcome in because we can use them as a benefit for the moment. Yeah. I bring it up all the time.

Okay, so just as a... Isaiah, but Wernher von Braun, he just wanted to do rocket research. He didn't need to join the SS. But I had to work at the concentration camp because I want Rocket to go real fast. I could help him.

They said I only get to do Wacky if I do human experiments. Yeah, for sure. Human experiments. How much of it do you actually blame the American government, though? Like, do you feel like it was two separate things? Like the, you know, making the Nazis seem as bad as possible and then doing Operation Paperclip and recruiting because it was just what was available to them? Like they had the...

to, or do you think it was a coordinated effort? Well, to clarify, the Nazis were going to be seen as bad by the outside world anyway because of their own actions, right? I'm not saying that the government had to convince people they were bad. I'm saying that it shows a side of hypocrisy on the government to be like, yeah, everyone, we agree with you, they're bad, unless they can make us some money, in which case we'll bring them on. I understand that the United States government viewed the Russians as equal

if not even worse threat post World War II. So it became a whole like the enemy of my enemy is my friend thing. But like I said, it's just the overall hypocrisy of like, yeah, these people are evil, vile, and should be shunned.

Oh, you can benefit us in the rocket program? I mean, these poor souls who were forced to do evil by the hand... It's just like the way the narrative changes when it suits them. Yeah, I think it just shows that the government doesn't really have morality, right? Correct, yeah. It is a matter of benefits.

An effective decision is not a moral decision always, generally speaking, especially when you're talking about more than one group of people working together from a nationalist perspective. There's never a moral basis for those decisions. Yeah.

But does it become a moral situation when you weigh in the research gained from hiring bad people to do incredible research that did give the Americans a leg up against the Soviets? Is that potentially a moral benefit eventually, if you do have that leg up over the Soviets? What kind of world would we be potentially living in if the Soviets did have the advantage instead?

I don't know. I don't know if that would really... I don't know if geopolitics really has a big basis in morals just in general. Yeah. Hold on. You said what kind... Say that again. What kind of world would we be living in if the Soviets won, you're saying? If the Soviets did their Operation Paperclip and we didn't because we're moral.

I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. So it's like we have to do the thing before they do the thing, right? Yeah, I'm saying does it become more ethical when you think of it within those confines of needing to beat the Soviets to the point so that pure

pure evil doesn't exist in the world. You know, referring to the Soviets as pure evil. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Which, like, can be argued which way, whatever. Which is what the government would argue. Yes, to the United States, the government would argue that the Soviets were the evil ones, yeah. So, I mean...

Yes, it makes it more, I guess, understandable. Does that make it more right? The fact that anyone gets put into that position in ways because both sides were willing to do whatever it took to beat the other. Right. I also don't think there would ever be a scenario where the Soviets would do that. There's a reason that whenever Russia was pushing into Germany at the end of the war, that the Russia, I mean, the Germans were running to the Americans to surrender.

because you know like we we did had things like prisoners that the Russians weren't so fond of yeah and like we let them chill out in Groom Lake and fucking you know integrate in our society they the Soviets had Cannibal Island and gulags and things like that salt mines yeah yeah yes

So there is a reason they ran. I don't know if something like Operation Paperclip ever would have happened with the Soviets at the time. I mean, it did. It did. It did. It's in the document here that they did have their own Operation Paperclip and we'll get to it eventually. This is just kind of early pre rambling that we tend to do.

But they did have their own Operation Paperclip. But like you just said, it was far more... If they were given a choice of where to go, they would definitely be choosing America at the end of the day because they were treated as heroes over in America for some reason. And America's like, oh, you're a respected scientist. And in Russia, theirs was like, you're a prisoner. You can live another day if you like. Yeah, if you give us your research. France and...

Britain also had similar operations. I don't know, man. It's a weird circumstance where the world just got out of a war and now they're also in a war. And there is a group of people who committed atrocities who have all this information. It's like, well, better us have it than them have it. So you, yeah, it's strange.

We can look at these ethical dilemmas with the benefit of hindsight and stuff, but 1940s, 1950s was a very different world. And I still fundamentally believe that governments are pretty immoral at the end of the day. So...

It's a hard question to answer regardless. I'll put it this way. More so than I am upset by the literal action of, I guess, pardoning these people for the sake of their knowledge and stuff, is the framing around the entire thing, right? Yeah.

The lying about it. The lying about it. The super evil people now becoming well-respected members of society instead of what they were, which was effectively like a piecemeal of justice in some way of like, well, we're forsaking it here for the sake of something greater. Rather than any transparency about that, it's like, these men are heroes. Nazis, what? They're so friendly. Yeah.

They're so friendly, but they were forced to do concentration camp, but yeah. They're the real victims. What we really need, though, is the perspective of three YouTubers is what we really need on this. That's what we always need. That's what we need. We need more YouTubers. We need three white men with suspiciously similar facial hair to have a podcast to break this whole thing down.

Also, I have personal beef with whoever chooses the thumbnails of this podcast. It's not me. Who chose a picture of me yawning for the last one?

Well, strike a pose right now. Do a cool operation paperclip pose right now. We'll choose that one. I've already yawned like five times. I just yawn all day, every day, no matter what. So... He's a sleepy boy. I was like, what the fuck?

I think it has to do with migraines. I think it has to do with migraines. I mean, yawning's natural. That's fine. And if you ever yawn on this show, we will choose it as a thumbnail. That's just every single episode. Well, now you just Streisand affected it. So now we can't pick a thumbnail. You're right. The research shows people are more likely to click on thumbnails with people yawning on them. I'm sorry. That's just how it works.

All right, so now can we get to our three minds, this podcast, to truly break down the ethics of Operation Paywork? Thank you for giving me perspective, Caleb. I had almost lost it there for a second. Yeah, yeah, we were pondering. I was about to write a self-help book. People need to know what we think about this. Exactly, we're pontificating.

Yeah, I'm important, clearly. Yeah. Would you believe me if I told you that after World War II, the American government secretly brought over 1,600 Nazi German engineers, scientists, and technicians to work on US military and space research? You don't have to believe me. It happened. It wasn't known, however, to the public until the 1970s, some 20 years later, when a journalist named Linda Hunt filed a Freedom of Information Act where key documents-

What'd I say? I'm sorry, but I have the brain of a five-year-old. You started that sentence twice. You said, who's named Linda Linda? It's a cool name. Information Act where key documents and evidence of German Nazi recruitment came to light. Did you know that?

Did they deserve to come to America? And why exactly did America invite its former enemies to be citizens? And why did they lie about it? What were the ethical concerns that stem from this secretive government mandate? And why does it stand as an example of a post-war conspiracy?

So today in this episode of Red Thread, there'll be a show document below in the description, we're going to take a look at the post-war world to understand better why Operation Paperclip came to be what the government would consider necessary. Towards the end of World War II, the US government wanted to gather German technology and the people behind it, recognizing that it could benefit and speed up their own research.

The U.S. had become alarmingly aware of the technological advancements of Nazi Germany, and there was a sense of urgency to beat the Soviets in the race for Nazi Germany's knowledge, as well as tension between the two post-war states that necessitated America and the Soviet Union feeling like they both needed every advantage that they could find to put them above the other.

That was one breath. That was a long sentence. That was a pretty long sentence. I'm proud of you. Before Paperclip, the United States Army Air Force embarked on Operation Lusty, Luftwaffe Secret Technology, which that's what Lusty stands for. It's an acronym. It was actually just a giant orgy. It was nothing to do with recruiting people. Operation Sex. We aim to collect technical and scientific reports, research, weapons, and access to aircrafts and facilities to study back in America.

The Luftwaffe was Germany's air force, who at the time had superior aircraft designs and weaponry. As an example of the innovations Germany had made during World War II, the Messerschmitt Me 262 was the world's first operational jet powered fighter aircraft, and it was significantly faster than any allied propeller-driven aircraft, and the V-2 rocket was the first long-range guided ballistic missile.

When you say Messerschmitt me, what does that mean? What is it to Messerschmitt someone? Messerschmitt. Messerschmitt. I don't know what Messer is. I feel like Schmidt is just fast. Could be the guy who made it. It probably is. The word Messer translates to knife. Knife me. That's fun. Schmidt. Schmidt's also a name. Schmidt means blacksmith.

Yeah, but this could just be what the name means, because Schmidt's also a name. If it's a knife blacksmith, maybe that's the company or foundry where it was made. Yeah, probably. Messerschmitt. It's like calling it the Boeing ME-262 instead. I don't know. I don't know enough about German. It was designed by Will Messerschmitt. Messerschmitt is a surname that means cutler or knife maker.

It was designed by Willie. Willie Messerschmidt. That would make sense. Yeah, gotcha. To be fair, he had a cool name. Lusty had two teams made up of USAF and teams... Had two teams made up of United States Army Air Force. What's it from? You alright? I'm sorry. Something got into me.

Yeah, I was like, you remember I said that, oh, Schmidt, I think that's like speed in German or something. Yeah. I typed speed into the English to German calculator and it gives me two options. One is die Geschwindigkeit or something. And the other is das Speed.

Sorry that got me. That's it. Schnell means quickly or fast. That's what I'm saying. Okay. Go ahead. Sorry.

Lusty had two teams made up of USAF and teams from the Air Technical Intelligence. The first was led by Colonel Harold E. Watson and was a former test pilot. Their goal was gathering weapons in aircrafts and bringing them back to America to be examined and investigated by us, while Team 2, headed by Colonel Howard M. McCoy, aimed to recruit scientists, collect documents, and investigate the German facilities themselves.

Colonel Harold E. Watson. These guys' names are too similar. Howard M. McCoy and Harold E. Watson. That sounds like made-up names. Come on. What the fuck? You made this up. Colonel Harold E. Watson and his team were nicknamed Watson's Wizards. Oh, no. No, they were not. No, they were not. MASH, eh? Watson's Wizards. Wait, Watson's Wizards? Those fucking war criminals? MASH.

Once in a while, no one hit him. Werner, you've got to apologize now. And this team included pilots, engineers, and maintenance men. Say you're sorry. Say you're sorry. I want the DOS engine go vroom vroom. Rocket go poof. This team was again split into two. One went out to gather aircraft.

while the other gathered piston engine aircrafts, non-flying jets, and rocket equipment.

Okay, so even before Operation Paperclip, clearly the U.S. government intended on at least recover... I mean, of course, right? After wars, this is probably what happens. Just generally, you just gather whatever the other side had. Yeah, you use their equipment to find out how yours could be better. Yeah, that makes sense. Or you pull the Julius Caesar and you burn down all their knowledge.

That's a cool way to do it. That was way cooler. Just fucking burn everything. And then you pull an Ottoman Empire. They have a list of burnings. They love burning knowledge. They loved it. Who was it that burnt the Library of Alexandria? Was that the Ottomans who did that? Julius Caesar. Oh, Caesar did that? I didn't know that. Yeah, accidentally. He hated words. Accidentally? I didn't know it was accidental. Are you serious? He was illiterate.

I remember learning that it was a conquest of Islam. They burned it down in the 600s, but the evidence now, I remember learning that in school, homeschool, but it's actually, the Library of Alexandria was not current at the time that it was burnt down again, apparently. That's like the newest thing. So it was burnt. People believe now that Julius Caesar accidentally burned it down.

Wow. What do you mean by current? Like it was already dilapidated or like what? Yeah, it was, it was, it had already been destroyed at that time. So, but it was like rebuilt or whatever, but like the original burning of the library. People just stopped caring about libraries? Uh, what do you mean? Like they just stopped taking care of it? Is that what you mean? Well, it had already been burnt once.

So there wasn't an intentional burning at some point before the actual burning of the library that we know of. Julius Caesar unintentionally destroyed the Library of Alexandria and then it was burnt multiple times after that. And the most popular one was a conquest of Islam. They destroyed the Library of Alexandria. So they were like, that looks fun the first time, let's do it again. Well, I think they just like burning books, to be honest. They just like destroying things.

What is it about humans and loving burning books? Imagine carrying that much about books. Well, if the books contain opposite... Imagine carrying that much about books. If the books contain contrary information to why you're conquesting, you probably wouldn't want to leak those books. I think I figured it out. I think I figured it out. Jackson, because he's Australian, has the soul and spirit of a Mongolian warrior.

Right. Yeah, that's me. Just a barbarian in the mountains who goes, who cares for paper? It's made to be burned. That's what I'm saying. What do you use paper for? Yeah, exactly. Like the warrior who has no interest in the shamans of his people or anything like that, just seeks to kill. I respect it. We need more of that in the world, I think. Books are nothing more than eventual fire kindling. That's all I'm saying. Eventually they will return home. Wow.

I gotta look this up now. That's so edgy, I got cut a little bit. Okay, yeah, so... It was Julius Caesar. Okay, cool. Nothing, I just had to make sure I was right. It was Julius Caesar. Yeah, don't be smirch, he's a good name. If he's not actual the Bernie of the person, of the library, I mean. Imagine, like, caring that much about how Harry Potter ended and then going and burning down your local library because of it. Super cringe, Caesar. Alright.

She's a TERF. Would you like to take the next chapter, Isaiah? Yeah. Operation... Oh, man, you gave me this one on purpose. That's why I wanted to go first. Oh, you were playing the long game, you animal. Hey, come on, I gave you the pronunciation, guys. Hold on, give me a second. Give me a second, you jerks. It's a hard word, everyone. O-S-A-W-I-A-K-E-M.

Osa Aviakim. All right. Operation Osa Aviakim. The Soviets were also planning their own project with the goal of collecting Nazi specialists as war reparations. At the Yalta Conference, Winston Churchill, Franklin D. Roosevelt, and Joseph Stalin had all agreed that war reparations would be...

I'm sorry. And all agreed that war. I have a buddy who looks just like Joseph Stalin and we went go-kart racing and he made his name. He made his name on the go-kart machine. Young Stalin spelled Y-U-N-G-S-T-A-L-L-I-N-G. Young Stalin. That's pretty good. Stalling. Yeah, I got it. That's clever.

Sorry, I just haven't seen Stalin since then and it made me laugh. Shout out to young Stalin. They had all agreed that war reparations would be payable by Nazi Germany in the form of equipment, goods, and German labor with the agreement being that 50% of the total amount, 20 billion, going to the Soviet Union. Hey, that's generous. Why did the relationship ever break down? They were clearly getting along well. They were splitting everything evenly then. God, I want to go back to being best buds with the Soviet Union.

What are they up to now? Yeah, nothing. Russia hasn't done anything in the past several years, I'm sure. I don't look at the news. You could probably be their friend. Oh, no, I wasn't talking about Russia. I was talking about the Soviet Union. Back when they were the Soviet Union. So, Russia. Yeah.

Pretty much. No, name changes work on me. The marketing worked. Two different figures. So you forget about Russia and just think of all the amazing things the USSR did. Yeah, if you forget about Russia. Yeah. What is the USSR without Russia?

The Slavs. Just you. It's the Slavic region. Georgia. 50% of the amount that Germany has to pay goes to the Soviet Union, correct? That's what that agreement's saying? Yeah. Okay. Everyone else got the rest. Yeah. 50% of the total spoils of war, let's say, went to the Soviet Union. Yes, correct.

As such, Soviets felt as though they had the right to conduct an operation in which they forcibly conscripted German skilled workers and scientists. They launched Operation Osa Aviakim in the early hours on the morning of October 22, 1946.

Soviet officers ended up rounding 6,500 people, including Nazi scientists, engineers, technicians, as well as their families. Their focus was using the Germans' knowledge to advance their own military capabilities, with one key interest being nuclear weapons, knowledge that the Americans hadn't been forthcoming with during the war. They were relocated to the Soviet Union and for years were not allowed to return to Germany.

So this is a quote from Fritz Karl Prekschott, a German engineer recruited by the Soviet Union, and he was held there for six years. Yeah, recruited in, you know, air marks. Recruited quotation marks, yeah. He was recruited violently. Yeah, it's not like he went to like SIP.com or Fiverr or anything like that. It's not like he's a junior and he got an internship lined up for the summer. Yeah.

He had the option between, like most of us do, he had the option between working with the Soviets or an open mass grave. So he chose, he volunteered. It's an effective recruitment strategy. It's 100% success rate. He said, between midnight and 3 a.m. when everybody was asleep, they knew exactly where I lived. First of all, a few days before I was captured, a fellow came.

They had a key. They had everything to the apartment, to the door. There was one interpreter who told me in German, quote, get up. You are being mobilized to work in Russia. End quote. And there were about half a dozen soldiers with machine guns who surrounded me. When I wanted to get to the toilet, they checked it out first to make sure there was no escape hatch. It was a very tight operation. They did that with every family. Many families came while I was alone. End quote.

Was that common? Toilets with escape hatches? Well, I think he, like, this was probably translated from German or Russian or something. So, uh, he probably just meant, like, a route of escape. Like, if he could get out of the window, if he could get out of the ceiling or something like that. Yeah.

Being able to escape through the toilet would be very effective, though. I would never think to check that. Well, not the toilet. Like, in the bathroom, there's a window or something. I get it. I'm just saying. He's not Doofenshmirtz. He doesn't pull a lever and then the toilet opens up. Is that where Doofenshmirtz came from? Was he a paperclip? Yeah, well, I mean, his name is Doofenshmirtz. True, yeah. He was working on those V2 rockets. Yeah, he was an SS officer.

Probably. To open Schwartz the SS officer. I can't. I can't make. I'm not going to make a joke. I'm just going to cruise on to the next.

The German scientists were compensated for their work, some quite competitively compared to the competing Soviet scientists. I don't believe it. It was an incentive to keep the Germans productive and motivated on their work. Living conditions varied depending on the value to the Soviets. If they were deemed more valuable, they were given much nicer housing and resources. But there was a blanket of restricted movement and lack of freedom.

They often worked in isolated compounds or designated working areas. They had limited contact outside of those they worked for. And although given housing and money, they were being forced to work and the situation was coercive at best. Wait, wait, wait. They were given housing and money, but they were...

restricted to the areas so what was that like fucking soviet fun bucks or something like what was the point of money if you're not allowed to go there's this little thing that the germans came up with actually got a cutesy little idea from them called labor camps so if you have people on a site or location and they're stuck there you can give them housing and i don't know amenities but they can't actually leave the site and they're forced to do work at said location now

I imagine because there was also money being given here, like they had some kind of pay. It was probably more similar to a company town. Normally, you can't leave company towns because you can't find work anywhere else and you'll become destitute. Whereas here, you can't leave the company town because you'll be shot. I imagine. What's the point of giving them money? I don't understand why they were paid. Formality. That was part of the whole thing. After we're done with you,

you have a chance of living. It's like a prison-to-work program, effectively. Kind of like a carrot and a stick kind of thing. Yeah, the Soviets were really weird with their relationship with just decisions. A lot of things just didn't make sense. A lot of stuff just didn't really make a lot of sense. They were very...

and weirdly controlling and they would give you like one, not luxury, but like one aspect of normal civilization and just completely remove other aspects. Yeah. Weird. Just as manipulation. Yeah. The German scientists brought along a lot of knowledge and expertise on rocket and missile development. Knowledge especially common from the V2 program.

The V2, also known as Vengeance Weapon 2, which is a very cool name. You know what my favorite name for a missile ever is? So like our big nuke that we had forever was called, I think, the Minuteman. It might still be, but that's like our super nuke or whatever. Russia's is called Satan 2.

That's crazy. That's such a funny name for a missile. Satan 2, dude. What's worse than Satan? Satan 2, bruh. Holy fuck. Did they name it that because they thought it was what the Americans would be most scared of? I don't know. It's just a wild name. I'm pretty sure that's the name of their missile. Let me make sure I'm not mistaken about that.

That's a pretty nice name. The RS-28 Sarmat, often colloquially referred to as Satan 2 by media outlets, is a three-stage Russian silo-based liquid-filled HGV-capable and FOBS-capable super-heavy intercontinental ballistic missile. And Russia has got to work on their PR.

It's one of those missiles that you have to launch with a mobile truck, basically. It's several... It's huge, yeah. Minuteman is still our largest ICBM

But there's also the Titan, which is a new one that's supposed to be the largest. We have cool names. That's what we needed. Larger nukes, I think. Correct. We already have enough to completely nuke the world over three times. If you keep running your mouth, Australia's going to find out real quick why we don't have free healthcare. No one's going to bother nuking Australia. We're fine. Quit your yapping, you commie. I'm sending the general an email right now.

No! This guy... Hey, Kamala Harris knows who I am. I will have her send the drone strike immediately. He's already using his big connections. This guy longs for when Australia was a colony of the USSR.

yeah he missed it yeah he's there's way too much uh ussr slash russia support on this podcast at the moment yeah come on don't they have more nukes than america i'm pretty sure they do so i'm anti i'm anti them as well i'm anti nukes believe it or not bold bold opinion yeah but i don't know how many of their stuff is actually like workable yeah modern missiles that the half-life of the uranium isn't like completely gone or whatever like you know yeah

pathetic, pathetic stockpile. Really? If you ask me, it's tough to trust anything at all that comes out of any government, let alone one that is like literally built on all lies. Like there are no Freedom of Information Act requests. Yeah, I agree. I don't even believe they have nukes. Do it. Do it. You know, you know how the United States has to keep coming up with like more lies and stuff like that to tell the American people. Um,

The Russians are not burdened by such frivolous things. They simply don't say anything. Their version of Freedom of Information Acts are us sending agents in and finding shit out and then making it public. Also, don't they send agents in and make you drink poison tea where you die immediately, like nerve agent shit? Yup.

Russia's cool. Russia's awesome. I drink a lot of tea, so I'm cool with Russia. Don't send agents against me. I want to keep drinking tea comfortably. I see what you're doing, yeah. They've got good moves. I'm calling Kamala right now. We're getting this done with. I mean, we're known for tampering with tea as well. It's not a joke, but... Yeah, brother. USA! USA! USA!

Here we go again. Fuck. That's not a joke, by the way, to the audience. Kamala Harris used my audio for a TikTok earlier today, so I think that means I get one drone strike. I get to pick one target, and I get to press the button like a make-a-wish. I'm going to see this. Kamala Harris.

Did she ask for your permission? No, of course not. It's Kamala HQ is her TikTok account. Oh, okay. Kamala HQ, I got you. You could do the funniest thing right now on Copyright Striker. That is so funny. Wait, she used that?

She's that audio. You're a propaganda instrument. I am now. I am now part of a liberal propaganda machine. The last week's Red Thread episode or was that from something different? That's old. That's from my this was named that operation.

Operation something. It was the one about the CIA pretending to be vampires in the Philippines. That's from the video I did about that. Yeah, okay. Anyway, so keep running your mouth, Jackson. All right, see what happens. Hey, yeah, all right. You won't even know what hit you. You will just disappear. I can't say anything without angering a nation. Sorry.

I'm fucked either way. Yeah, neither can Americans, but we simply don't care. So that's the spirit. Anyway, the V2 or Vengeance Weapon 2 was the first long-range guided ballistic missile that was powered by a liquid propellant rocket engine. The Soviets wanted German specialists to recreate the V2 and they were forced to oblige, recreating their previous steps and building the R1, which was an exact replica of the V2.

which stood for Raketa-1 or Rocket-1. This missile was crucial for development of the R-2, R-5, and eventually the ICBMs that would come down the line from the technology. This team of scientists included Helmut Grotrup, who became one of the leading figures in their missile development programs and was put in charge of the team tasked with recreating the V-2.

Helmets' work for the Soviets was vital for them and helped them close the technology gap between them and the US, particularly during the space race. So for those of you that don't know, ICBM stands for Intercontinental Ballistic Missile, and that's what they use basically on all their nuclear warheads. And America does as well, of course. And what makes it so important for a country wanting to exert power is obviously it's intercontinental, so they can nuke other countries.

countries from as far away I think the ICBMs now can reach pretty much anywhere on the planet right like they have a range around the entire planet so you know they could strike from anywhere really so it's a very important piece of the nuclear arsenal remember that Australia yeah I'm fucked they're gonna send an ICBM full of rice and tea at my house it's gonna be great keep that in mind

Helmut was later allowed to return to Germany in the early 1950s after the Soviets felt they had extracted all of his useful information out of him. He went on to work on early electronic engineering projects and actually invented a smart card, or an integrated circuit chip. Just a single one, he only invented one. He invented one, and then it took a really long time for us to figure out how he did it. He's a magician, how did he do this? After making the V2, he created the Visa card.

He's a wizard. Another crucial German scientist to the Soviets was Brunolf Bade. Brunolf had himself actually been arrested by American soldiers in Ragun, Ragun, whatever, where they had held him prisoner for only a couple of months. Brunolf spoke good English and was able to converse with the American soldiers. It was them who told him of the plan to weaken Germany after World War II, something known as the Morgentau Plan, which

which was eliminating Germany's arms industry and other things relating to its military strength. This didn't set well with Brunoff as he watched them loot for documents containing important detail. Brunoff was released in June of 1945, likely because his knowledge on aircraft design didn't align with the America's immediate post-war priorities, which hadn't yet evolved to Operation Paperclip motivations. All right, so this is... This guy... Okay. Okay.

Brunolf is a German scientist who hears the Americans say, yeah, well, the plan is after the war, for one, I don't know what private or sergeant told him this, but

After the war, we're going to destroy Germany's arms supply. And that way the country is debilitated when it comes to military might. So he gets upset by that and decides to join the side that is executing German civilians. It's like, what?

Well, I don't think he joined them. I don't think he joined them. I think he was, again, recruited. I see. He didn't want to go with the Americans, so then the Russians were like, hey, you know who you are going to work for? Yeah. Fair enough. All right. But Rudolph later became pretty valuable to the Soviets. In Germany, he had been involved in designing heavy bombers. He assisted in designing the Junker Ju-287, which was a revolutionary bomber prototype at the time.

The Soviets were interested in the Ju-287 as it had a new, unique design. Forward swept wings to help maintain control at high speeds. The Soviets took Ju-287 prototypes and the accompanying data, getting Brunov and the other engineers to work on the design. Brunov helped in the development of long-range and high-speed bombers, something that was crucial for the Soviet Strategic Air Force during early Cold War times. Dammit, if only you guys recruited him instead. God.

True. You could have had the forward swept wings. Yeah, well, all I know is that an F-16 will run circles around a MiG. So grow up. When did the F-16s exist? USA. USA. USA. USA. USA. There was a... Let's go, baby! There was a plane...

There was a while we were worried. I can't remember the exact time periods for this, but forgive me. There was a new Russian jet that we were worried about that was way, way faster than any of our jets. And then it was something about a Russian soldier defected to the United States. It was like Japan or something like that. And basically, it was the first MiG that we were able to actually analyze. And it was like... Oh, yeah. It was flying so incredibly fast and had absolutely zero...

Like build around it to make it work like the plane was just like rackety if you tried to cut at that speed It would just like rip the plane apart like they're basically just juicing it out without getting the other stuff I guess as a presentation model Need for speed they had like the NOS button where you press the button pretty much And if you try to turn it to the end. Yeah. Yeah So yeah, anyway, USA, okay

What were the outcomes of Operation Paperclip's counterpart, Operation Ossavikim? For the Soviet Union, it created significant boost in their technological capabilities using the knowledge they forcibly brought over to develop missiles and jet aircrafts. This all became important in the Cold War arms race as they were able to build their own missiles and rocket technology much faster than they would have previously.

Having the Germans' knowledge on aerospace technology also pushed their developments in their own aviation and space programs, leading to the launch of Sputnik in 1957, which marked the beginning of the space race. They also used the knowledge gained to develop the next generation of spacecrafts like the MiG-15, which played a big part in the Korean War. Spacecrafts? Did they create UFOs? What are spacecrafts? Was the MiG-15 a spacecraft?

What? You ever seen that acorn, Jackson? Acorn in a Nazi's hat? Some bitches? No. Oh, wait, yes. Yes, I do remember that. Yeah. Yeah, we talked about that previously. Yeah, we don't got that. We don't got that acorn. Why? Why are the Germans so smart? We got that acorn.

Why were they so smart? How did they create all this shit? Hyperborea. What do you think? They went down there and they met the true Aryan race and gained the knowledge of Agartha and whatnot. That's why they became so powerful. You should know this, Jackson. We covered this.

Yeah. How could I forget? Yeah. So anyway, that's out of the way. Next generation spacecrafts like the MiG-15, which played a part in the Korean War. Maybe one of the biggest contributions from the Germans was to the Soviet missile program. Creating the R-1, which then led to major further developments that generally did accomplish the post-war goal of the Soviets to make them a genuine world power and competitor to America. I mean, true.

They were a nobody before that. Yeah, who had ever heard of Russia before? Am I right? Yeah. All right. Very quick, before we actually go into the beginning of Paperclip, Operation Paperclip, just a quick word from our sponsors. Comfort is important and underwear can fall in that line of necessity over comfort, usually. Sometimes they just find themselves wedging into the wrong places.

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Big thank you to our sponsors and thank you to you for hearing them out and supporting the show that way. It really does help immensely with the show. So big thank you if you check out the sponsors. Big thank you to the sponsors for supporting the show as well. And now back to the show. And back in. Caleb, please tell me about Operation Paperclip. Okay, bud. Sure. Why not?

Operation Paperclip ran primarily under the Office of Strategic Services and started before the war even concluded. It was overseen by several U.S. military and intelligence agencies such as the Joint Intelligence Objective Agency, JOIA, Office of Strategic Services, the OSS, the U.S. Army and Air Force, and the United State Department, the U.S. State Department. Why would they have the United States State Department? It seems like a redundant term.

word edition. I mean, having like six fucking organizations here seems redundant in general.

Yeah. In the rush to compete against the Soviets who had similar goals, Paperclip was organized as a direct continuation of the previously discussed Lusty program. The United States, one of the top minds of Nazi Germany, the engineers, the scientists and the technicians to learn their valuable information to further their own military and space research. They had a list of around 1600 men that they saw as key figures behind the advancement of Nazi Germany science and technology at the time at the time to bring over to America.

I preferred when it was Operation Lusty. Yeah, Lusty was way better. Yeah, it had more vibe. It passed the vibe check back then. Sex appeal. Yeah, yeah.

Before Paperclip, but after LUSSE, there was Operation Overcast, named after the location used to house German scientists in Bavaria, which was apparently a miserable place. Established in July of 1945, their goal, as they put it, was to assist in shortening the Japanese war and to aid our post-war military research. Only a few months later, the operation was renamed to Paperclip.

After the paperclips used on the folder that contained information on German sites. So they named it after paperclips. That's pretty interesting. Wow. That's revolutionary. See, there was so much more creativity with Lusty. What the fuck happened? Yeah.

Paper Club's kind of lame. What happened to that idea, man? God damn it, that sucks. It's so much lamer. Yeah. The U.S. went through Allied occupied zones in Germany, specific established zones for American, British, French, and Soviet control, primarily in southern and western Germany looking for skilled individuals. They also went through interrogation centers, prisoner of war camps, and hospitals looking for key people featured on the Osenberg list.

What's the Ozenberg list you're asking? You probably are asking because I said it as if you knew. Well, if you'll recall earlier in the document, I... If you'll recall earlier in the document, I explained it, all right? And it's the editor's fault for leaving it out. And also whoever added me the yawning in the last thumbnail. Whoever did that. We mentioned before that they had around 1,600 names, documented names they were scouring the country for. This was the Ozenberg list. It was

It was created by German engineer Werner Ozenberg. And it documented the names... Traitor, yeah. Also, there's like seven different German Nazi scientist names, by the way. It documented the names, backgrounds, and areas of expertise of key German scientists, engineers, and technicians who had taken part in various military projects during the war. They needed a clear understanding of their resources towards the end of the war, and they knew they were at a disadvantage due to losing the war on multiple fronts. Ha ha.

They knew that... Wait. You tell me they knew they were losing... Dude, you're getting obliterated. Yeah. Yeah, they got fucking obliterated, bud. The Ostenberg List was created in the context of this desperation as a means to catalog the most critical scientists, engineers, and technicians who had worked on military's projects, on the German military's projects. The list...

was actually found in a toilet at Bonn University in Bonn, Germany by a Polish lab tech. And somehow it made its way to MI6 in England, who gave the information to America, where it was then immediately used in Operation Paper Club. Yeah, it was covered in, like, piss. Et cetera. Piss water. Et cetera, dude. I do think it's...

I think it's funny how like, yes, the reason it was in the toilet is because they were trying, like the Nazis were trying to get rid of it. Evidence that would be used against them or like information about themselves at the end of the war. But it's also funny to imagine someone was just like a list of all the scientists I hate and think are ugly. Yeah. This is poop. This is waste. Excrement.

The president at the time, who also was known for his beautiful pants, Harry S. Truman was unsure on the operation before he approved of it, later recalling that his indecisiveness was because of relations with the Soviet Union. He had relations with the Soviet Union? Yes. Doesn't that make him a traitor? Sexual relations. That was the true operation last year. It was between Harry S. Truman and Joseph Stalin. Look up Harry S. Truman pants. We'll look that up and it's going to be him wearing no pants, I bet.

No, no, he's got great pants.

You get awesome pants pants are you seeing what are you seeing what I'm thinking in my legs up Truman pants? And it's just a fucking company Harry true Thank you. He's kind of irrelevant now Which which photo I meant to see him like standing on a balcony kind of thing Harry s Truman pants The only picture of Harry Truman pants, it's him with the gigantic pants. Oh like the

Yeah, like the ballooned out ones with these tight riding boots. Yeah, bro. They're pretty cool. Those are huge. That's a riding uniform, isn't it? Like a cavalry officer's uniform? Yeah, for cavalry. Yeah. Pimping. I mean, it does look like he has some tender thighs there. I'm going to put that up on screen along with a picture of Caleb yawning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pants. Can you make it look like Caleb's eating Harry Truman? In his beautiful pants. Yeah, yeah.

He approved the program on September 3rd, 1946, under much stricter and limiting conditions than what it would eventually become. For example, he approved Operation Paperclip with a condition that no scientists who were ardent Nazis, that is a quote from Harry S. Truman, or had actively participated in war crimes be brought to the U.S. So all of them, literally all of them. Who did he think he was recruiting? Yeah. Yeah.

Only the good Nazis. Go recruit from the Nazis, but I don't want any Nazis. Go recruit from the Nazis. I don't want any bad guys. Son, I want you to go find the most clean, straight-laced, God-fearing Nazis you can. Find them with pants like this. Find them with the good pants. Put them in positions of power immediately. Can you do that for me, son? We need that fluff. Not that...

Who's that guy who dressed the Nazis? Who's like known for Hugo Boss. Gucci. Hugo Boss. But wasn't Gucci whoever Gucci? No, Gucci was someone else. Coco Chanel was like Coco Chanel. That's who I was thinking of. Yeah, yeah.

It was Balenciaga. The German specialists were to be selected by the War and Navy departments, along with nominations from the Commerce Department. These specialists coordinated with the British. These specialists coordinated with the British were consolidated into the U.S. exploitation list, which was overseen by Joint Chief of Staff.

Their contacts were managed by the War Department and ensured they got fair pay and living slash working conditions. I assume that means contracts, right? Contracts would make more sense there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They, uh, yeah.

President Truman wanted a cap of 1,000 German specialists to be brought over, excluding their families. Jesus, so Truman got fucked over by everyone in terms of this. Yeah, the OSS, the CIA, eventually. The OSS would become the CIA, as we discussed last week. So they just kind of took the lead on this and ignored the President of the United States, his limits that he had set. Well, it's good that after that, the CIA never did anything bad to a president ever.

Yeah, Truman got off light. Yeah, comparatively. It's because he was so focused on his pants. He was just chilling most of the time. Yeah, he had a lot of air in his pants. He's just like, check out how much air I have in my pants. Isn't this cool? And everybody's like, how are you doing that? How are you doing that? He's like, well, we got a whole team of scientists working on it. Yeah, that's the only time he would talk to the CIA. He's like, I want you to make my pants bigger. They gotta be bigger. Fuck.

Sorry, I'm yawning. Okay.

There it is. Get him. Get him. Quick. Dude, I covered it. I covered it that time. There was a problem, though, guys. There was a problem, though. Many of the key individuals they wanted to recruit were members of the Nazi party. I want to see this coming. Oh, my goodness. These German scientists during World War II were Nazis? No. No. I thought they were friendly Christians.

I thought they were Christian, like good old Southern Democrats. The way Daddy used to vote. Southern Democrats down there in Bavaria. Let's see. New Deal Democrats maybe, but that's all we're asking for. Nothing further than that.

In general, George S. Patton, a prominent United States Army general, was aware of this. Patton, who had become the military governor of Bavaria after the war, played a part by simply gathering as many experts as he could find, prioritizing their expertise over their past affiliations. Meanwhile, high-ranking officials like Alan Dulles, whom we discussed in last week's episode, the future head of the CIA, by the way, unfortunately

understood the importance of securing the top scientists, those with access to Nazi secret projects, before they could fall into Soviet hands. As a result, many of these officials chose to ignore specific orders barring the recruitment of Nazi affiliates, and under the direction of Dulles, the OSS, and the GIOIA, systematically removed any references to Nazi party membership from their records of those that they wanted to bring into the U.S.,

Oh my lord. That's where the conspiratorial element... You may be wondering why we included this in the show about conspiracies and stuff. It's because it was a conspiracy. The government clearly...

For many years, for many, many years, it was conspiratorial to be like, maybe all these German scientists that are working with us were previously Nazis. And they'd be like, no, these were the ones who fought against Hitler. These were the good ones. These were the men who stood up for what was right. And then years later, they're like, nah, these were all Nazis.

Yeah, actually, the most famous rocket scientist of all time, Wernher von Braun, was in the SS. He was a Nazi in the SS. Yeah, he was like huge concentration camp Gestapo level of it. High level. He was like a level five Nazi. Not even the deniable Nazi level of like, well, yeah, they were forced to or else they'd be blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, he loved it. He did it for the sport of it.

He had a love for the game. That was the reason he was there. Yeah. So someone needs to get his middle name. Someone needs to get Harry S. Truman on the horn and let him know what the CIA is doing. Yeah.

He was a pushover. Truman was a pushover. He allowed the conflagration of the surveillance state that we now live in. Well, if he was pushed over, he was... Yeah, that's fine. If he was pushed over, he just bounced right back up with those balloon pants. Dude, he was hyper-focused on his fashion and the way he appeared, and he was just a... Yeah, he was a diva. He was a very weak president. He was so shallow. He was a shallow, vain diva. Yeah.

He was worried about ethics and morals. Yeah, loser. But I like his quote, though, after he met Oppenheimer. That thing he said, it's very funny. These individuals were essentially cleansed of their pasts, allowing them to obtain high security clearances and work on classified projects in America. Yes, your America as War Department special employees.

This is where, obviously, like we just said, the conspiratorial element of Operation Paperclip comes in. Despite clear orders from President Truman prohibiting the recruitment of ardent Nazis and war criminals, U.S. intelligence agencies like the OSS and GIOIA systemically manipulated records, omitting or whitewashing the Nazi affiliations of key individuals to ensure that they could be brought to America.

So they were like, I guess, so they hid all the records to trick themselves, basically, to let them in, it sounds like, right? That's crazy. Yeah, well, the president doesn't have that much power. Power, yeah. They whitewashed them to bring them on board so that other departments are like, okay, well, these guys passed the sniff test. Yeah, this checks it, yeah, this passes. Yeah.

This deliberate deception allowed former Nazi scientists, many of whom were deeply involved in the regime's war efforts and atrocities, many atrocities that you've no doubt heard of, it allowed them to not only evade justice, but also secure high-level security clearances with very cushy, high-paid jobs and 401ks from your taxpayer dollars, I assume. Well, not yours, unless you were alive, you know, 80 years ago.

By concealing their past, these individuals were integrated into top-secret US projects, including missile development and the space program, all under the guise of

War Department special employees. The conspiracy lay in how these actions bypassed ethical considerations in government orders, prioritizing technological superiority in the Cold War over moral accountability, while keeping the American public and even some government officials, and by some government officials we mean the literal president of the country, in the dark, about the true nature of these scientist backgrounds. God, Harry S. Truman must have been so shocked when he found out Werner...

Von Braun was a Nazi. He went, and his pants went... Here's the thing about it, too, that you gotta realize with government officials, most of the time, like, you made a good point, Jackson, governments aren't moral bodies, right? They are instigators of proliferation. Sometimes there's overlap with, like, morality by happenstance, but

Most of the time it's whatever is best for America or, you know, insert country, the empire. Right. So Truman, I don't think he was a dumb guy. I don't think he looked up one day and was like, wow, I can't believe Germany never used 1600 of their best scientists. Yeah.

That was real silly of them. You know, I think he caught the vibe. It was just that the public couldn't know there had to be plausible deniability. So as long as they pass the background check, as long as the parts that, uh, they need to disappear from the ledger disappear, then he's not going to ask too many questions. Um,

I don't think he was that surprised to find out. Yeah, and also I don't think people were looking too closely as well. I mean, apply it to any other situation. Imagine if right now, I guess Russia is the big bad guy, right? Or North Korea or whatever. Take one of those countries. Imagine if 1,600 of them were brought over by the United States government and they're like, guys, you're not going to believe this. All 1,600 of their best scientists

didn't like their government and want to help us now. They're our friends. They're all good people. Yeah, I'd be like, okay, okay. Sure, whatever you say. I don't think they were that dumb. I think they just knew not to ask questions. Conscientious objectors.

Yeah, they every single one of these men personally tried to kill Hitler. All of them heroes. They're all Tom Cruise in that movie. They're all Tom Cruise from Valkyrie, Operation Valkyrie. Yeah, yeah.

One thing that's interesting, too, is there's a lot of mention of the space race and all this stuff during the Cold War. We hit the ground running with paperclips building the U-2, the surveillance plane, and Curtis LeMay, the commander of the Strategic Air Command at the end of World War II and right as...

the early 50s, right around when Stalin died. There's an unknown amount of U-2s that crashed that were built by Werner Braun and paperclips that crashed in Russia before Stalin died. How crazy is that? There's an unknown amount of American surveillance aircraft that crashed in Russia.

That's just like that's something people don't know. That's fucking insane. There's so much to all this stuff that's just like there could have been so many little wars right after World War II. Yeah. And all these... Well, I mean, the Cold War was so volatile. It's like hard to even wrap your head around. For so long. Like I talked... My Twitter bio forever was Stanislav Petrov's Stan account because it was like...

The Russians, their tech messed up and said that we were striking them. So they were about to launch a counter-strike and one officer, just one guy was like, nah, I'll wait. I'll see if we actually get hit with missiles. If he had just decided that the equipment was right and launched a counter-strike, there you go. There's the war. It kicks off like literally down to decisions like that is what kept the world from like atomic annihilation. It's insane.

Yeah, it is crazy how close we came to it.

multiple times. Yeah. The German scientists brought to America were assigned to various programs aimed at advancing military, aerospace, and technological innovations with a particular focus on areas crucial to Cold War competition. Among them was Werner von Braun and his team who began developing rocket technology in the US using the V2 as a foundational model for both ballistic missile systems and space exploration initiatives.

The work significantly contributed to the creation of ICBMs, which we've talked about, and the Saturn V rocket, which von Braun led. The Saturn V, or 5, I guess, the Saturn V, powered the Apollo missions to the moon, making a historic achievement in space exploration. And what do you know? It was led by a Nazi. So...

That sours the mood a little bit for that one. Gonna be honest. America's greatest innovation or greatest moment in history. Led by a Nazi.

Yeah. Yeah. Awkward. One of the most well-known specialists, von Braun, had served as the technical director of an army research center in Germany where his key project was the development of the V2 rocket. That's just a funny way to phrase it. Well, Braun was the director of army research in Germany in the 1940s. What does that mean? It was known to officials...

Navon Braun had been a member of the Nazi party since 1937 and the SS since 1940. And his rocket program used forced labor from concentration camp prisoners at Missile Baudora where thousands died under brutal conditions.

Despite these affiliations, Von Braun was seen as too valuable to American interest during the Cold War, and his Nazi background was deliberately downplayed by U.S. intelligence during Operation Paperclip to ensure his recruitment. Yeah, he was just visiting. He was a member of the SS. That's not... Yeah. That's not a small scale. Yeah, that's... I mean, I don't really even know what that's like, to be honest.

That's rough, buddy. That's what that is. That's rough. He's like paying premium, basically. That's the VIP pass. Yeah, he's signed up to the email list and stuff like that. He's deep in there. He's got the membership card.

After being brought to the U.S., von Braun worked on ballistic missile programs, played a key role in designing the rocket that launched America's first satellite, Explorer 1, 1958. He later became the director of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center, where he continued to influence space travel. In addition to his scientific contributions, von Braun also collaborated with Disney on educational programs. I told you! I told you! You called me crazy! He was a part of Operation Paperclip.

Confirmed. Programs that introduced the public to the possibilities of human space exploration. His history as a former Nazi official turned American space pioneer only became widely known after Operation Paperclip was publicly revealed in the 1970s. Wah, wah. So sad. In addition to rocketry and missile development, the German scientists brought over through Operation Paperclip were involved in a wide array of cutting-edge research that shaped several key industries.

Some were tasked with advancing nuclear research, which was essential in the development of nuclear energy and weapons. Their work contributed to the early stages of the U.S.'s atomic and hydrogen bomb programs, helping to solidify America's position as a dominant nuclear power.

Furthermore, German scientists also made contributions to fields such as medicine, biotechnology, and chemical research. Some of their research focused on chemical weapons and pharmaceuticals, which were repurposed for civilian and military use in the US. This research laid the groundwork for advancements in treatments for disease,

trauma care and medical technology and it also influenced the development of chemical agents that would be used in warfare during later conflicts such as Agent Orange during the Vietnam War yeah so they created a lot of shit we know that like obviously yeah

And just to clear my name a little bit here, the YouTube program, by the way, I know I said that they contributed to that. They didn't directly contribute to that, I don't believe. But that was one of those things, aerospace in general. Too late, you said it.

I believe it. And also, I think I also said that they crashed after Stalin died. I don't know when Stalin died. I think Stalin died in 1953. And I'm pretty sure they're crashing in the late 50s. I was wrong. Actually, hold on. I think I was wrong. I've been thinking about this the entire time. I'm pretty sure I was wrong. You're right. He died March 5th of 1953. Okay, cool. Yeah, Truman killed him when he installed these pants.

Well, actually, don't we not know when he died? Isn't that an estimate because no one checked on him for a while? Yeah. He could still be alive. He could still be alive for all we know.

Overall, Operation Paperclip was not just about acquiring knowledge for space and missile technology, but about harnessing the expertise of German scientists to accelerate progress across a wide spectrum of critical research areas, from nuclear energy and weaponry to biological and chemical innovations, shaping U.S. military and scientific capabilities for decades to come.

Then we come to the moment the lid broke. I think that's the terminology. The public revelation. The lid broke. Yeah, whatever. Lid burst open. The jar cracked. All of these German government officials were Nazis. Werner Braun. Who? Who?

The secrecy surrounding Operation Paperclip began to unravel in the 1970s, largely due to the investigative journalism and the declassification of government documents. One of the key figures in revealing the operation to the public was journalist Linda Hunt, who in 1985 published the groundbreaking book, Secret Agenda of the United States Government, Nazi Scientists and Project Paperclip, 1945 to 1990. Wow.

When Harry S. Truman read that book, he fell to his knees and started crying. How could this happen? How? He fell softly, for one, to his knees because of his inflated pants. He used his inflated pants as tissues, basically, wiping his eyes. How did he die? The Truman death. He wasn't around too long, was he?

And he died in 1972. He's a nice looking guy. Yeah, I feel like he lives on probably. Like his pants were like a horcrux or something. His soul is trapped in his pants. He's kind of cute if you look at him. Wait, send me a picture of him. He's like a human version of the grandfather in the movie Up. Aww. When did you say he died? 1992?

1972. He was very cute when he dropped the atomic bomb on Japan. Look at those eyes. I don't think he wanted to though, Isaiah. Yeah, the second one wasn't a thing too. Yeah, I think so. I heard that. I think I read that somewhere. Oopsie woopsie. Oopsie woopsie.

I'm Jojo Iwawi. He was trying to put on his pants and it was like a real struggle and then he like slipped over and his palm fell on the button accidentally. On the red button. Yeah, it was a real big accident. On the bomb Japan button. Yep.

All right. Hunt's extensive research uncovered how Nazi scientists with questionable or outright war criminal backgrounds were brought to the U.S. under the guise of contributing to post-war scientific development. Documents declassified under the Freedom of Information Act, FOIA, also played a critical role in exposing the true scope of Operation Paperclip. These files revealed that U.S. intelligence agencies such as the

the OSS, which is now the CIA, and the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency, JOIA,

They had deliberately manipulated the records of many German scientists, erasing or minimizing their Nazi affiliations to allow them entry into the US and to bypass President Truman's initial restrictions against recruiting known Nazis and war criminals. Once Operation Paperclip was revealed, it ignited widespread controversy and outrage, particularly because many of the recruited scientists said,

had of course been deeply involved in the nazi war machine and in some cases implicated in war crimes i'm laughing because it's just so stupid the american public who had fought and sacrificed to defeat the nazi regime was shocked to now learn that their government had not only recruited former nazis but also shielded them from accountability in the pursuit of cold war supremacy imagine yeah imagine the mind fuck of knowing that like

the people that you had just been fighting for a decade were now like deeply entrenched in like high ranking positions within your own government and that's that's what i mean yeah yeah it's so crazy i would be like mind broke the hypocrisy of it being like man we got them they're the bad guys unless they can help us and also we're gonna lie about it for several decades until we get everything we need yeah we fought against them for 10 years because their ideals and like what they stood for was so different to ours and so demonstrably like evil like that

that we had to go stop them. Yeah. But now we've recruited them and now they're working for us. We treated it, which it was to, well, to an extent for the American people, it was, you know, a moral war. It was a war of, you know, good versus evil or whatever. It might not have been to the government, but it was to the people. That's how they sold it. Exactly. It might not have been to the government, but that's what they felt it like. Um,

But then it goes from that to something else. And if I understand that, you know, people can be irrational and stupid in large groups and stuff like that. But if the narrative was more so the way the Germans had treated it, I'm sorry, the Russians had treated it. And it was the sense that, yeah, these people are evil and we disagree with them, but they have knowledge that can help us, that can make us greater. Then, you know, it would be different versus these were actually the good guys in Germany. Yeah. It's the sliminess of like pretending...

Yeah. Pretending like they were U.S. citizens, basically. Oops. Sorry. Yeah. They had to walk in concert twice again. Do you think it would have gone over better with the American public if they were brought over as, like, labor camp workers, essentially? They would have been really mad right then, for sure. I don't know. I don't know about labor camp workers. I feel like people would have been fine with it, honestly. Like, they would have been like, this is their...

We put random Japanese or just Asian people in general into camps. I'm not talking about random people. We were quite to the concentration level. I get those two mixed. I get those two words mixed. Internment and concentration?

Yeah, they're not even close to being the same. It goes internment and then labor and then concentration. That tends to be because it's like we're going to keep them somewhere and we're going to make them work for us. And then we don't want to feed them anymore. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mix those up. I apologize. Often wrong.

Yeah. Anyways. The revelation prompted a national debate about the compromises made in the name of scientific and military advancement as well as the government's role in covering up the backgrounds of these individuals. As you can probably imagine, nothing happened though. There were no repercussions. The

The justification for the program rested heavily on the Cold War rivalry with the Soviet Union, which was also aggressively recruiting German scientists for its own military and space programs. So they basically used the excuse, well, well, they're doing it. They're doing it, so we should too. Except again, you didn't do it the same way. Like the Russians, at least like

They had the guise of punishing the German Nazis, which I guess would have gone over better, in my opinion, with the public than just treating it like they weren't Nazis in the first place.

Supporters of the operation argued that it was a necessary step to ensure American superiority in fields like missiles, nuclear technology, and eventually space exploration. That's right, baby, USA! Yeah. Yes, sir. By all means necessary.

However, the government chose to still hide the details of Operation Paperclip in a conspiratorial manner, primarily due to them understanding the moral and ethical issues that would be at the forefront of the conversation. They simply had wanted to have that debate after they had already accomplished what they set out to do, i.e. it was easier for them to beg for forgiveness and point to the results as opposed to try to convince the public that it was a good idea beforehand. Yeah, that's a pretty good strategy, honestly. Genius!

Yes. That's what I used to do to my mom. Yeah. Sorry. It's already happened, but I think that if they would have brought them over and put them in, let's say internment camps, she's the right word. And then they would have left it up to a national vote. Let's get convoluted. All right, let's get convoluted. A, put them to death. B,

Send them to jail. Standard. Right. Or C, we can use them and they can work for us and, you know, they can contribute massively to our technology and you let people vote. I feel like the American vote would probably be half and half put to death, half contribute to technology.

All right. Well, let's get ethical here. What would you guys think? Well, okay. Hold on. Here's the thing about voting in situations like that is that voters are always just whatever the emotional crux is at the moment. Exactly. So they can make a bad decision just because they're fired up about it, right? Yeah, but that's democracy, baby. I know. What do you want?

It's the best we've got. It's the best we've got technically. I think for me, I'd say put them to work. That's what I would vote for.

So I think the idea there is okay. It's just the fact that they hid it and pretended like they weren't Nazis. It is entirely the hiding of it, yes. Like I said, it's like giving them positions and stuff and letting them live. It's like, okay, but if it was framed as more so like, look, they're going to work for us now. We're not like them. We're not going to execute them. We're not going to do the same evil that they did to others because we're better than that.

Yeah, but we're not going to pretend they're not Nazis. We're going to use them to help us, to make us better. And in a Cold War America, that 100% would have got people riled up to go. You know, like, yeah, that's right. They're going to help us to be better than the Ruskies and the Reds. The commies. The commies, yeah. People 100% would be okay with that. But, you know, it's like... The way it was handled. There's no, like...

on products that were helped to be designed, like Bayer had a bunch of Nazis and shit for the pharmaceutical contributions. It's not like this was made with Nazi labor or something. It has like the seal of Nazi. It's like this was made using Nazi brains and stuff like that. You want these products to have like a swastika on them or something? I want to know. I want to know which ones would be which because some people would obviously have a huge moral obligation to not use them. Yeah,

Yeah, if you're contributing money to something, why would you ever... I mean, they do that with chocolate and fucking stuff now where it's like, this is cruelty-free or whatever. Nothing is cruelty-free that was touched by a fucking paperclip scientist. Yeah, true. Do you think there's a moral issue with the government using the research since it was gained by, you know,

traumatizing an entire group of people ostensibly or causing physical mental harm to people do I think it's bad that the government is using Nazi data use it eventually yeah

I feel like, yeah, it is bad, but it's not really... None of that stuff's black and white, though. It's tough. Yeah, it's hard, isn't it? I mean, the research... The argument is the research already exists. Using it is not going to undo the damage, right? And it's also important to acknowledge that you may think you're making a moral decision with every single thing you're doing, but you're not. You're not.

You're really not. When you get down to the nitty gritty of things, it's very difficult to make actually moral decisions. So it's like stick to there's so much gray.

Yeah, there is a lot of Graham. Look at Harry Truman. He's so adorable, but he dropped the bombs. You look at his face and you could someone like that drop the ball. What if person cute question mark, but what? He's pretty cool. I looking to be honest, dude, he started that shit. Don't say about the guy that dropped the Japan dude. Look at him though. You know, he would have loved it. He's cute. He's

He's adorable, little guy. I mean, it's not like they did... Well, I shouldn't say those people that got exploded deserved it, but it's not like Japan didn't deserve to be destroyed. Let's be real. They were fucking horrible and evil. Yeah. If we want to talk about horrible human experiments and, you know, terrors inflicted on people, definitely. But those people, obviously, the people working in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. A lot of innocent people that paid the price for that, sadly. Once again.

A lot of gray. A lot of gray. All right, Isaiah, take us out with the controversy and the end. Take us out. The U.S. are still criticized over Operation Paperclip. The program undeniably made massive strides in advancing American military space and rocket developments, but it came at a price. Nazi records were wiped and some of the men who were housed and almost protected by the government should have faced repercussions for what they previously did and the horrors they brought on innocent lives.

take werner von braun whom we've discussed previously had a highly successful career in america even collaborating with disney on educational shows about space exploration however in germany von braun had applied for membership in the nazi party received multiple accommodations for his contributions under the regime and frequently visited the middle work facility where the v2 rockets were produced using forced labor when the fbi investigated his nazi affiliations in 1961 they all

They ultimately concluded that von Braun had joined the party primarily to advance his career and avoid imprisonment.

As a result, he faced no legal repercussions and went on to live the rest of his life peacefully in the United States, where his contributions to space exploration were widely celebrated until Operation Paperclip became public knowledge and his past affiliations were made evident. But he had to go to the labor camp because he was so hungry, and the only way he'd get money for food is if he used Sway Waiver.

Also, it says he joined the party primarily to advance his career. Exactly. That doesn't absolve him. He's looking out for himself. He worked so hard. He also, just to defend him a little more, he was in the SS before World War II. Yeah. So...

Wait, so he was still a Nazi? I'm being sarcastic, yeah. Yeah, okay. He was in the SS. Yeah, he was in the SS. He was a Nazi. Yeah, if you're in the SS, yeah, you're a Nazi. Well, that doesn't mean anything, Caleb. Yeah, the SS. Oh, true, right, right. Yeah, right.

The FBI investigated him and found him innocent or whatever it said. But again, we already established that the government was basically hiding the Nazis' history. So that means nothing. That's what they did to...

for a lot of these guys is they played the whole like Schindler's list thing with them, like Oscar Schindler. They were like, well, he was, he was on the inside. It was just like an agent, you know, like actually trying to do the right thing against it. Yeah. It's like, okay, whatever. Yeah. But he made the V2. So yeah, I made the V2. So actually, can we blame him that bad guys? Let's be serious. Yeah. Um, they were Nazi criminals, but was it worth it?

Opinions remain divided. Some argue their expertise was crucial for America's technological edge in the Cold War, from missile development to the space race. Others believe the ethical cost was too high, with the U.S. compromising its morals to keep these scientists from the Soviet hands. In the end, the question remains, do national security and progress justify overlooking their past? The answer depends on the person. Hmm. Yeah, I think I've said my piece. I think using them was fine, but...

Lying about them being Nazis was pretty demonstrably evil in my opinion. Like pretty bad. It makes it cleaner for them to clean up, but that shouldn't be the priority. Yeah, it absolutely muddies the whole situation up unnecessarily so in my opinion when I think they could have got away with it if they were just honest about the people they were using. There could have been a way better process for that.

Yeah, any last minute thoughts from you guys about Operation Paperclip? You said there was some more additional conspiratorial elements that you rant about, Isaiah? Did we not cover everything? Oh, no. I just mean like the...

Just like the fact that the government did it, you know, like in other cases where it's like, well, the government wouldn't do that. It's like, yeah, have you ever heard of Operation Paperclip? They'll do anything. Yeah, it's another thing to point to. Yes, exactly. It is a very clear example of them lying or justifying wrongdoing for the sake of, you know, profit of money, of empire, of whatever. So it's just like anytime someone's like the government won't do that, it's like just point to the board paperclip. Yeah.

Which we caught a bit of shit previously in the 9-11 episode. A lot of people were like clouding on us because we didn't, you know, believe the conspiracy theories so much that we were reading throughout that episode.

And I get it. I get why you would absolutely believe those conspiracy theories when there is a long list of Operation Paperclips, right? There is a long list of provable moments in history where the US government has...

directly lied to the people, to the US citizens. So yeah, I totally get it. I totally understand why these theories exist. I still don't personally believe 9-11 was an inside job to go back to that, but that's just because of my own personal opinion of reading about research and evidence provided.

provided by conspiracy theorists. I just don't personally see it. But I totally get why you would be disillusioned with your government, let's say. Or governments in general. Yeah, there's no reason to trust the government. That's for sure. No. Blind trust, definitely not. I mean, no trust at all, I would say. Nothing they say should be taken at face value.

Yeah, 100% dive deeper. Do your research. Try to find alternative sources with evidence, not just like, you know, wild claims or whatever. Really, you gotta just look into things. Any other words from you guys? Jackson, no! No? Nothing from you? No.

No, that was my word-on-brawn impression. They just won the Wookiee Contest in the 20th century. They just won. Oh, I'm sorry! I was only in the equestrian unit. They just so hungrily wanted to make their walk in ship. All right.

Now do, what's his name? Big Pants President guy. Do him Truman. Hello there. My name is Harry Truman. Harry Truman. Now say sorry for dropping the bombs. I'm sorry about dropping the bombs on Kira Shimmer and Nagasaki. I'm sorry about that. Every night. I live with that every night. What happened again?

It won't happen again, I'm Harry Truman. It won't happen again, I'm Harry Truman. That was his re-Electric Cafe slogan. Exactly. That's what I've learned about good impressions is that you have to say who you're being at the end. Yeah, you have to say it every single time just to make sure to have it at home. Yes, people know.

Alrighty. That's going to do it for this episode. There's show notes below. So, I mean, we've already talked about everything, but hey, you can go down, check it out, read what we just said out loud again, for some reason, if you want to do that. A lot of, you know, effort and work goes into making that document. So it'd be neat if you check it out at some point, but hey, that's

That's up to you. Also, big thank you to the sponsors for supporting the show. Really, again, does mean a lot to us and they keep the lights on in the show. So, you know, they make it possible. So thank you to AG1 and MeUndies for sponsoring this episode. Please go check them out. Would really mean the world. And yeah, thank you very much for joining us for another episode of Red Thread. I sincerely hope anyone caught up in...

Hurricane Milton is dealing okay and recovering after whatever happens. Again, it hasn't happened yet. It hasn't made landfall, but it does look like it's going to be a big one. I really hope that everyone is okay. Over to you guys to say goodbye. Yes, sir. Bye. See you guys. Bye, everyone. Thank you for watching. Bye. ...

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