The Golden Rule
22:45 Share

WNYC Studios is supported by Zuckerman Spader. Through nearly five decades of taking on high-stakes legal matters, Zuckerman Spader is recognized nationally as a premier litigation and investigations firm. Their lawyers routinely represent individuals, organizations, and law firms in business disputes, government, and internal investigations and at trial. When the lawyer you choose matters most. Online at Zuckerman.com.

Radio Lab is supported by Progressive Insurance. Whether you love true crime or comedy, celebrity interviews or news, you call the shots on what's in your podcast queue. And guess what? Now you can call the shots on your auto insurance too with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive. It works just the way it sounds. You tell Progressive how much you want to pay for car insurance and they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget.

Get your quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law.

Hey, this is Radio Lab. I'm Latif Nasser. Just going to start with a quick announcement. Our senior producer and correspondent, Simon Adler, is doing a live show at the one and only Hot Docs Festival in my hometown of Toronto on May 5th.

You probably remember his mixtape series about how the cassette tape changed everything. This is sort of that and it's more than that. It's so good. From self-help tapes to mixtapes to a lonely recording made on the flip side of the moon. This show, it's all about the tension between...

Sort of collective shared experience and the kind of bespoke, made-for-you media bubble that we all kind of inhabit now. The show is called Radiolab Live, How the Cassette Tape Changed Us. Happening, once again, in Toronto, Hot Doc Cinema, May 5th. I've seen it. It's good. Go, go, go. I, myself, may be making a little virtual appearance. Tickets are still available.

Let's pivot here from that live show to another live show. We have a rewind for you. A golden oldie, if you will. Now that I think about it, probably also recorded on a cassette tape. It is a story about a maddeningly tense showdown between two people in front of a live audience. But it's actually really a tussle between what's good for each of them individually and what's the greater good.

We originally aired it in 2014 as part of an episode called What's Left When You're Right. Weird title, I know. But boy, does this segment ever hold up. So here you go. The Golden Rule. Wait, you're listening. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. You're listening to Radiolab. Radiolab. From WNYC. See? Yep. Rewind.

Okay. This is Andy Rowe. So what I've got here, you can hear it rattling because it's falling apart. He's a TV producer in London, and in his office where we reached him, he's got these very special metal balls. This is the original prototype of a golden ball. It's lovely and shiny. It's very light. Each one's the size of maybe an orange or a tangerine or a tennis ball. Painted gold. And it makes a very satisfying clunk when it closes. And that clunk, that is the sound of betrayal.

Because Andy has used these balls to bring out the worst in people, to show how ugly and conniving we can be, but also how wonderful. And if you think you know about all that, then you could win big on golden balls.

Okay, so we're talking about a game show called, of course... Golden Balls. Andy was one of the executive producers, did pretty well. We were really, really proud of Golden Balls. Ran for three years in the UK. Nearly 300 episodes in quite a short space of time in the show. We thought it was such fun. And it is fun, because in many ways it is just a normal game show. But I would argue there is more going on here. In fact, I'm about to argue that. Because there is a moment in one of those 300 episodes, one moment, that I just cannot shake.

Because you remember the first time I showed you this clip. I certainly do. I was totally, totally, totally thrown by it. Because what's about to happen is that two guys with totally different moral philosophies are about to go, yes, with some fascinating results. And this story, in fact, inspired the whole show. It did. Today...

Three different SmackDowns, all that somehow smack down, not in the way that you would expect. Different people, different dreams, different worldviews. All going. We're calling the show What's Left When You're Right. Which is... Genius. You'll find that out later. It will ultimately make sense. Perfect sense, I think. Yeah. Later. For now, can we get the golden balls happening? Yeah.

All I can remember was that... All right, so before we get to the moment that I want to talk about, we kind of have to walk a few paces to sort of lay the foundation for...

Which is it, we have to explain the rules of this game, which are... You cannot describe Golden Balls in a sentence to anybody. It makes no sense whatsoever. But I will try and simplify. So basically there are all these early rounds where people are winning money, losing money, cheating each other, lying, strategizing, voting one another off the show. I'm going to skip all that because it is in the last five minutes. All hell breaks loose.

And it's that classic shout at the telly moment where you're sitting at home going, I can't believe what that guy just did. I can't believe he just did that. Because basically the whole game culminates with a face-off. You now face a very straightforward choice. Two players sit on opposite sides of a table with this host between them. Yeah, Jasper Carras is my name. A man whose head is as shiny and smooth as a golden ball itself. LAUGHTER

Yeah, I know. I just edited in someone laughing at my own joke. That just happened. In any case, when you get to this moment at the end of the game... Where there's two people facing each other in the spotlight, it's all gone quiet. In that moment, their hearts are racing. Because they've got to make this key choice, which is not just about money. Although there is money on the line, of course. It is a choice that will reveal...

Who they really are. Not who we all are. Okay, what? Humanity's soul will be laid bare. This may be true, but why don't we just lay out the rules themselves. Sorry, got a little carried away. No, that's okay. All right, so in the final round, each of the contestants get two golden balls. And they are the most important golden balls of the game. One ball says split. You each have a golden ball with the word split written on it.

Written inside. The other ball says steal. You both have a ball with the word steal written inside. Now split, like say you and I are playing, right? Yeah. If I choose to split ball, what I'm really saying is that this jackpot, whatever it is, say it's 3,200 pounds sterling, okay? Yeah. I'm saying I want to split it with you. Let's just split it in half. 50-50, even-steven, I'm a good guy. Now if you also choose split, then we split it.

You get half, I get half, everybody's happy. The feeling of kind of joy that everybody had when it was a split was fantastic. You're both going home with £1,600 each.

Okay, so that's one outcome. It's one of four outcomes, I believe. Because obviously there are other ways this could go. Because one or both of the contestants can choose steel. And what steel basically says is, forget sharing, I want to take the whole thing for myself. And if we both decide that... If you both choose the steel ball... We both screw each other and it cancels out. You leave today's game with what you came with.

Nothing. Nobody gets anything. Nothing. I like the way he says nothing. Nothing. With a little bit of contempt. Deservedly. Yes. Two greedy people deserve nothing? Nothing. Except each other, which equals nothing. Right. So if we both decide to split, it is mutually good. If we both decide to steal, it is mutually bad. Now where things get thorny is that say you got a mismatch, like one person chooses split, the other person chooses steal. Now in that scenario, the person who chose split, the nice guy or gal,

Nothing Whereas the person who chose Steel The conniving duplicitous bastard Takes everything So you If you steal

I mean, the other person is kind. Then you walk away with the money. Yeah. I mean, by the way, this is the classic prisoner's dilemma from game theory, which some people may recognize. But the basic idea is that there is an incentive to share because if you split, you split. Each person takes half. But there is also an incentive to lie because if I can convince you to share the money and I turn around and shaft you, well, then I get more money that way.

And the best part about this game, for our purposes, is that before the contestants make a choice, Jasper, the host, gets them to talk to each other about what they're going to do. Okay, before I ask you to choose...

I think you have some talking to do to each other. All right, so watch this one. You got a young blonde girl facing off with a larger gentleman with a mustache. Older? Yep. And the jackpot is £100,000. Stephen, I just hope they weren't puppy dog tears and they were real tears and you were genuinely going to split that much. I am going to split this. £50,000. I'm just... It's unbelievable. £50,000. You were genuinely going to split...

She's crying at this point. She's kind of adorable. I like her. She's like an innocent. If I stole off you, every single person there would run over here and lynch me. There was no way I could... I mean, everyone who knew me would just be disgusted if I stole off them. See how he's gripping his legs? He's up to something. Please. I can look you in the... Sarah, I can look you straight in the eye and tell you I am going to split. I swear down to you, I am going to split. Okay. This is serious money.

Sarah, Steve, choose either the split or the steal ball now. Hold it up. We're going on with 50 grand each. I promise you that. Moment of truth. He chose split. She chose steal. The nice girl was a thief.

The nice girl with bad. Every time I see this, it totally breaks my heart because the guy just falls onto the desk. He's got his head in his hands. He's just destroyed. Steven, I'm so sorry. Commiserations. You've lost. Look at her. She's looking away. She can't look at him. He's fallen into a slump on the table. It's just awful. It's evil, isn't it? It's such a good little game. And here's the thing.

If you analyze all the outcomes which social scientists have done, what you see is that a majority of the time, something like what I just showed you happens. People get up there and they're like, I swear I am a good person. Over and over they say, I am not the kind of person that's going to cheat you. And then they do it. They stab them in the back. And these are grandmas, policemen. And here's my theory.

It's not that they're mean people. It's that they don't want to be that guy slumped on the table. They don't want to be the sucker. The fear of being the sucker –

far overwhelms the desire to do good to their fellow contestants. There's something wrong with this program. The obvious thing to do is to share. You manage to wheedle your way into the approximate possession of a fortune, and all you have to do is agree to split it. But what if you don't trust the person across the table from you? Would you still share it? Well, that's interesting. Let's suppose I happen to be, I'm introduced to a person named Snidely Whiplash.

And he has an enormous oiled mustache. And he's wearing a cape. And he has this habit of rubbing his hands malevolently. And his eyes are twitching. And his eyes are twitching. So I'm sitting opposite him and I'm waiting to share with this guy. See, it's in a situation like that. That's when it's a real test. That's interesting. In this game. So what do you do if you don't want to be a sucker and you're not sure you can trust the person across the table? There's no good answer to that.

But then... Hi. Hi, is this Nick? It is. This brings us to the moment in question. We ran into this guy. My name's Nick Corrigan. I work for Media Academy Cardiff, based in Wales.

So Nick runs a not-for-profit in Wales, and right away when you talk to him, you notice two things. He loves Wales. It's the most beautiful country in the world. And he loves game shows. Yes. What was your first one? When I was about 17. He was on a quiz show. And I won a book. Nick has since been on, by his count, 44 game shows. Whoa. He's won 43 of them, he says. He's won a boat. He's won a house full of stuff. Trips to various places. This is like what he does. And when he first encountered Golden Balls,

He noticed the same miserable pattern that we all notice, which is like the nice people get up there, they say, let's share. Let's do it. We can be in this together. And then every time they were just shafted. But then Nick got an idea. How did you get that idea? I think I was probably...

I get all my greatest ideas when I'm swimming. It was only when I went back and had a cup of tea, as everybody in Wales obviously drinks tea. With your lump of coal right next to you. Yes. Your little pep coal lump. Coal is very important to Wales. When I got back, I thought, actually, it can't fail.

So Nick makes it onto the show, makes it to the last round. Welcome back to Golden Balls. And he finds himself sitting across the table from a man named Ibrahim, who the two of them are a study in contrast. Nick is tall, he's got really intense eyes, feathered hair. Ibrahim is short and bald and looks kind of like a mini Telly Savalas. Ibrahim and Nick, you now face a very straightforward choice. Jasper, the host, lays out the scenario. They're competing for 14,000 pounds.

They have to decide to split or steal. And now we get to the good part. Now, keep in mind as you listen to this that almost 100% of the time what happens in this moment is one person looks at the other and says, I promise you I will choose the split ball. We'll share it. We'll share it together. Yeah, that's what they say. Nick takes a very different approach. Abraham, I want you to trust me. 100%, I'm going to pick the steel ball.

Sorry, you're gonna... I'm gonna choose the steel ball. You're gonna take the steel? I want you to do split, and I promise you that I will split the money with you. After you've took the steel? Yeah. You're gonna take steel? Yeah. I'm gonna take split? Yeah. So you take the money... And I will split it with you? After the show? Yeah. LAUGHTER

There was utter panic in the studio. Just this whole idea was like, I'm not even going to pretend I'm not going to steal. And then I'll meet you on a corner after the television show and give you the half of it? Well, that's ridiculous. All the researchers started running around going, what's he doing? Can this be done? There was panic. Ibrahim, I promise you I'll do that. If you do steal, we both walk away with nothing. I'm telling you 100% I'm going to do it. No, I appreciate that. Right, I'll give you another alternative. Why don't we just both pick...

split i'm not going to pick split i'm going to steal ibrahim honestly 100 i'm going to steal it's in your nature to steal no i i'm honest and i'm going to tell you you're an honest i am that's why i'm telling you i'm going to steal if you do split then i will split the money i can't see myself doing that okay well i'm going to steal so we're going to leave with nothing where's your brains coming from

This argument went on and on. The actual argument, not the edited version online, went for 45 minutes. There was name-calling, there were threats, and over those 45 minutes there was an interesting shift.

Nick says that the audience began to turn on him. The audience behind were booing me. Which I get, because as I was watching it, I mean, initially it seems like a really cool, clever strategy. But then you realize as it goes on that he's being kind of a ass. Like he's not giving the other guy a choice. He's actually kind of bullying him. No matter what he said, I was not budging from the fact. And my intransigence just infuriated him.

Did you ever actually like hate him or actually? Yes, I did hate him. Yes. Yes. Yes, I did. This is Ibrahim. Ibrahim Hussain. I'm a market trader. I work on flea markets. He sells textiles. In London. It took us forever to track him down. Months. You found me at last. But I did hate him, I think, because he couldn't be, he couldn't, you couldn't negotiate with him.

There was no negotiation. I was saying to him, like, if I give you my word that I'm going to split, then I'm going to split. If I gave you my word, now let me tell you what my word means. Okay. My father once said to me, a man who doesn't keep his word is not a man. He's not worth nothing. He's not worth a dollar. I agree.

So, Ibrahim, I'm gonna steal. So you've got the choice. That was the point where I was like, Nick, give the guy a chance at least. Come on. We've lost it. We've lost everything. We're walking away with no money because you're an idiot. You're an idiot. You're an idiot. That's what you are. You're an idiot. You're an idiot. That's what you are. This can go on all night and these people have got to get up for breakfast.

Nick, choose split or steal. And right before they have to make their decision, it seems that Ibrahim caves. Maybe Nick wore him down and he's like, fine, you choose steal, I'll choose split. Hopefully you'll share the money. Right, I'll tell you what, I'm going to go with you. Okay. I'm going to go. I promise you I will split it. You cannot change your balls now. Split or steal. They both turn over their balls. Ibrahim, as we suspected, chose split. I thought I had no alternative. And Nick...

also chose split. - Yes, congratulations, you're both split and each receives 6,800 pounds. - How did you put me through that?

Radiolab is supported by BetterHelp. We all like to try to set our non-negotiables, whether it's hitting the laundromat every Wednesday or hitting the gym X times a week. These goals can start to slip when schedules get packed and the mind gets cloudy with stress. But when you're starting to feel overwhelmed, a non-negotiable like therapy is more important than ever. Therapy can help you keep your cup full by giving you the tools you need to get back into balance.

If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire about all your quirks to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash Radiolab today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Radiolab. ♪

WNYC Studios is supported by Rocket Money. Did you know nearly 75% of people have subscriptions they've forgotten about? Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate your bills for you by up to 20%. All you have to do is submit a picture of your bill, and Rocket Money takes care of the rest.

Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in cancelled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash WNYC. That's rocketmoney.com slash WNYC.

I'm Maria Konnikova. And I'm Nate Silver. And our new podcast, Risky Business, is a show about making better decisions. We're both journalists whom we light as poker players, and that's the lens we're going to use to approach this entire show. We're going to be discussing everything from high-stakes poker to personal questions. Like whether I should call a plumber or fix my shower myself. And of course, we'll be talking about the election, too. Listen to Risky Business wherever you get your podcasts.

The whole game he swore he was going to steal, but then he ends up splitting. Do you think that he was lying the whole time and always intended to share? He could have changed his mind at the last second. Whatever the case, here's why his strategy was so brilliant. I was shocked. I was shocked. I was taken aback. When we asked Ibrahim, like, if Nick hadn't deployed that crazy strategy, would you have still split? Because that's what you were saying to him the whole time, that you're going to split it. You're going to share the money. Would you have still done it?

No, not at all. Not at all. I was always going to steal. I was never going to split. Never. Really? Really. I was never going to split. Why? Why? Why? The reason being, if I split and the other guy steals, I get nothing. I'd rather both of us walk away with nothing than someone, what's the word, embarrass me to a certain extent. Didn't want to be the sucker.

And then I asked him, like, what about that speech with your dad? You know, that's the one that kind of got me. My father once said to me, a man who doesn't keep his word is not a man. Can I just jump in about that? Yeah. My dad, I never met him. My mother brought me up, me and my brother and my sister. And I never ever met my father.

So that, you made that up. I'm afraid so. You made that up. Yeah, yeah. I think I saw it on a film once. And it always stuck with me. I thought I'll be able to use that one day. I've never been a good boy. I think that is the real victory here. Like Nick got a guy who was never intending to share the money, whose whole philosophy was like... Don't trust anybody.

Don't trust no one. He got that guy to be good against his will and that guy thanks him for it. He did con me to a certain extent, but he conned me into £7,000. And Nick, for his part, is also grateful to have the money.

So he can give it to charity. I run a children's charity. I do all the health and safety and all the fundraising. Is that connected in any way to your multiple appearances on game shows? Yes. It is? Yes. Huh. Directly? Yes. You sound surprised. I do, because it's a very...

Wow. I kind of forgot how abruptly that ends, but man, what a ride, right? Okay. Before I go, just wanted to remind you one last time, Radiolab senior producer Simon Adler doing his multimedia extravaganza, Radiolab Live, how the cassette tape changed us on May 5th during the Hot Docs Festival at the Hot Docs Cinema in Toronto. I'm from Toronto. The Hot Docs

Cinema is like one of the best things about the city that I am from. There are a few tickets still left. Jump on them if you are going to be around. Yeah, it'll be great. Okay, catch you next week. Radiolab signing off.

Radio Lab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser are our co-hosts. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Rachel Cusick, Akedi Foster-Keys, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Jnanasambandam, Matt Kielty, Annie McEwen, Alex Neeson, Sarah Khari, Anahraskwet Bas, Sarah Sandback, Ariane Wack,

Pat Walters and Molly Webster with help from Andrew Vinales. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger and Natalie Middleton. Hi, this is Finn calling from Storrs, Connecticut. Leadership support for Radiolab science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation initiative and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.