The Unreal Housewife: Ep. 7, Jen Shah and the Dropout
35:29 Share

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.

Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I am Lacey Lamar. And I'm also Lacey Lamar. Just kidding. I'm Amber Reffin. What? Okay, everybody, we have exciting news to share. We're back with season two of the Amber and Lacey, Lacey and Amber show on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network. This season, we make new friends, deep dive into my steamy DMs, and we'll be right back.

answer your listener questions and more the more is punch each other listen to the amber and lacy lacy and amber show on will ferrell's big money players network on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts just listen okay or lacy gets it do it

Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Jonathan Walton, and this is Queen of the Con, The Unreal Housewife. Episode 7, a bonus episode, Jen Shaw and the Dropout. The world works in certain ways until a new great idea comes along and changes everything. What if you could test your blood in your own home? And what if it wasn't a whole vial, but just a dropout?

That's a clip from "The Dropout," an amazing Hulu series about Jen Shah-adjacent scammer Elizabeth Holmes, a woman who conned investors out of hundreds of millions of dollars, tricking them all into believing that her company, Theranos, invented this little magic machine that could test for hundreds of diseases and ailments using a single drop of blood. It was like something you'd see on "Star Trek,"

Walgreens, in fact, invested a fortune in Elizabeth Holmes and actually started installing these little blood drop test machines in their stores. Come to find out, they didn't work at all.

The entire blood drop test machine was an elaborate hoax. Because as hard as Elizabeth Holmes tried to invent this thing, and she tried really hard, she just couldn't do it. She spent millions of dollars, hired and fired hundreds of talented scientists and engineers. She built dozens of prototypes, but ultimately none of them functioned. But she pretended they did.

She not only built investors out of millions in her insane quest, but testing her machine on actual patients caused massive misdiagnoses. And one of her employees actually committed suicide over the whole thing. In the end, Elizabeth Holmes got criminally charged and convicted of fraud and was sentenced to more than 11 years in federal prison.

And guess what? Right now, she's actually serving time with Jen Shaw.

So, Elizabeth Holmes has asked to go to the same federal prison camp that Jen Shaw's at. This doesn't surprise me. The amazing Emily D. Baker again, host of the Emily Show podcast. It's the westernmost minimum security women's prison camp, which makes it easier for family to visit. And that's in Bryan, Texas. We will see Elizabeth Holmes and Jen Shaw at the same women's prison camp.

for a substantial number of years. Do they write a book together? Do they start a business venture together? I want to know everything about the conversations between Elizabeth Holmes and Jen Shah, because both of them have argued similar things.

I was caught up in this. I was trying to prove myself as a woman in this field. The men around me were manipulating me. I didn't know that this was fraudulent. I believed in what I was doing. I didn't believe that this was harmful. They both have had very similar defenses in their cases. I had these horrible things happen to me in the past, and that is an excuse for what I'm doing now.

I think there's a lot of similarity there. I am fascinated to see what happens. I wish they were filming a show. Is that terrible? Maybe it's terrible, but I want to know. I agree. It's fascinating. But I do think at their core, they are different women, different criminals. What differentiates Jen Shah from Elizabeth Holmes in my mind is Jen Shah is a scammer, right? I don't think Elizabeth Holmes...

intended to be a scammer. I really do believe Elizabeth Holmes believed she could make this thing that could test a thing with a drop of blood. I think that because

She kept hiring engineers to create it and when they couldn't, she'd fire them and hire more engineers and she kept trying. I do believe Elizabeth Holmes in her heart of hearts really did believe she could do it and she just needed more time and more money and lying to get it seemed like a decent price to pay. Whereas Jen Shaw knew it's a scam out of the gate. I'm just going to ride this train as long as I can and suck all these people out of as much money as I can. I know this is all a lie.

Whereas Elizabeth Holmes, yes, she lied and stole money and built investors. But I believe she believed she could do it. She could create this thing that would revolutionize blood tests all over the world and save lives. I believe she thought she could do it. But...

You know, that's not a defense. But what's scamming investors, you know, scamming investors out of $400, $900 million and having patients get... Her patients were getting results that showed they had cancer or didn't or were in remission or weren't. The potential impacts, I think, of Elizabeth Holmes are broader than Jen Shah because of the amount of people her scam reached because it was getting put into...

and Safeway. But with Jen Shah, I wonder if she also believed that these are just shady marketing practices, that this isn't really criminal. Like, it's questionable. It's not wire fraud and money laundering. It's just questionable.

No, I know she knew it was so bad because look at her attempts to conceal it. Look at the offshore accounts and the message. She knew it was wrong. She knew she'd go to jail for it if they caught her. And she tried her darndest not to get caught. Whereas, yes, Elizabeth Holmes knew lying to investors to get money was wrong. But in her mind, she was doing it for a noble cause.

to invent this thing. And again, if Elizabeth Holmes was a scammer, scammer, scammer, she would have just taken the money and ran. That's true. She did end up with nothing. But she really did try. She tried to, she had labs. She had teams of scientists hiring and firing the minute they couldn't invent this thing she had in her head. She'd fire them and replace them with others who could from Apple, from Google, from whatever, you know, like she,

She really did believe she's crazy. I'm not saying she's not crazy, but I don't think, you know, she had more character than Jen Shah. You think there was like an altruistic narcissism to it where it was a I'm just crazy enough to believe I can change the world and everyone was gassing her up. And she's like, so what if I have to change a few things and lie to investors about how it's happening at the end of the day? The good thing.

It will be worth it. Yeah, the good is going to be worth it. So it's win at all costs versus scam at all costs, maybe? I mean, and that makes her a little better, but definitely I don't, she's not a, I mean, she's not a scam, she's not a con artist. She just, you know, got carried away with a dream. Let me be her attorney this time. I love that you're like, I can argue this for Elizabeth Holmes because I can see the altruism there.

No, it's not necessarily poor Elizabeth Holmes. It's just that I don't think her intent. She didn't go into it defrauding. She went into it with a purpose to make a change and defrauded to get to that purpose because when it became wind at all costs, her partner in his sentencing submission called her a zealot. He said she had a religious fervor to make this happen and was going to like basically cross any boundary to make it happen.

Like, laws be damned. I'm going to force this thing into existence, which is a difference from Jen Shah, because it was also boundaries be damned, but the end result with Jen Shah was just financial. But where did hers go? Jen Shah seemingly also has nothing. Elizabeth Holmes in her sentencing submission said, but I've already lost all my stock options in my private plane. Cry me a river about your stock options. But...

They made the same argument that you're making in sentencing is, but she took nothing. She never cashed out the business. She went down with the ship and is now going to prison for going down with the ship. But it's not different than other venture capital that fails. Not everything that investors invest in becomes the next big thing. So it, and the people. I'm not saying she's a good, I don't think she's a good person. I think there's a difference. I'm just saying motive wise, yeah.

Her motives were never evil. Her victims were more savvy. Her victims were, I mean, she was convicted of defrauding investors, not patients. I think a lot of the patients of Theranos were also victims here, but she was convicted of defrauding investors who are savvier than the victims of Jen Shah. Jen Shah was preying on non-sophisticated victims in order to perpetrate this fraud.

Elizabeth Holmes was preying on much more sophisticated investors. But I don't think she was preying on anyone. I really do believe, just like Sonny said, she was a zealot. She believed she could make, she could will this into existence at all costs, which I'm not saying is a good thing, but at least she has some kind of noble intent at the end of the day. As horrible as it turned out, as many disgusting things she did to get there or try to get there, she really did believe there was a there there. Whereas

A regular scammer like Jen Shah, who's so similar to every other scammer under the sun, they know there's no there there. They're just gonna lie, cheat, and steal to get as much money as they can in a short amount of time as they can get it and run away. Like, so there's the difference. I don't think Elizabeth Holmes is a scammer. You make a good point. Elizabeth Holmes did not try to conceal what she was doing with Theranos. In fact...

It went the other way. She was as big and bold in public as she could be, but behind the scenes, she was concealing that none of it worked. She was concealing how the processes were happening and lying about it to continue to get money from investors. So there was some concealment there.

After your entire world is flipped upside down,

From unbelievable romantic betrayals. The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family. When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal. This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me.

Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters.

But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to.

Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all-new podcast There and Gone.

It's a real-life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck, and vanished. Nobody hears anything. Nobody sees anything. Did they run away? Was it an accident? Or were they murdered? A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. It was definitely murder for hire for Danielle, not for Richard. He's your son, and in your eyes, he's innocent.

But in my eyes, he's just some guy my sister was with. In this series, I dig into my own investigation to find answers for the families and get justice for Richard and Danielle. Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There and Gone.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. However, one murder of a crime boss sparked a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the mob.

It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Discover how law enforcement and prosecutors took on the mafia and together brought them down. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeartRadio, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System. The first two episodes drop on August 22nd.

Plus, did you know that you can listen to the episodes as they come out completely ad-free? Don't miss out. Subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel today. Available exclusively on Apple Podcasts.

When she was threatened to be outed that she was not actually using her machine and was actually manipulating other machines, those people were fired and threatened. The way she sent David Boyce after the whistleblowers is horrific. So there was concealment from Elizabeth Holmes in a different way. But yes, I do think she believed that these were reasonable boundaries to cross. And what's crackdowning

cracking a few eggs to make an omelet at the end of the day, because at the end of the day, I do think she believed she was going to revolutionize healthcare for everyone. But it was all lies and bullshit. And there's a documentary series and a scripted series about

But one of the things that stunned me, she would put on the voice. And now we know it was all an act because Elizabeth Holmes in this reworking of her life for the New York Times has dropped the voice and dropped the act. It was all part of the con. The persona was all part of the con. But again, I would argue, yes, it was part of that con, but she was doing it because she knew she had to sound right.

you know, for lack of a better term, less feminine, more masculine to be taken seriously. Because she was a 20-year-old college dropout. And all of her professors said, sweetie, this can't be done the way you're saying it. And she went, no.

It can be done. It will be done. And I will do it. So I think the argument we're having is, was Elizabeth Holmes altruistically delusional into believing that what she was going to create at the end of the day would work? Where Jen Shaw knew at the end of the day, none of this was ever going to work. These websites weren't ever going to work.

where Elizabeth Holmes was chasing down something she honestly believed would work, and everyone who was telling her otherwise were just, you know, haters, non-believers, weren't drinking the Kool-Aid. But doesn't that just make her a cult leader? Like, at the end of the day, like, this is what's going to happen. Everyone says it can't happen, and she's like...

but it can if you just drink the green juice and believe me. I mean, so if the shoe was on the other foot, right? Let's say Jen Shaw was in Elizabeth Holmes' position.

there would be no Theranos, there'd be no laboratory, there'd be no scientists, there'd be no prototypes. - Right, 'cause that's overhead. She would just be taking the money. - She'd just be taking the money and making up another story why this is not here or that's not there, taking more money, taking more money. So again, we're splitting hairs because ultimately both women did horrendous things and hurt a lot of people. - I think it's a great conversation though about the different kinds of personalities and the different kinds of cons.

where Elizabeth Holmes had this... I mean, both of them have this larger-than-life personality. I find Jen Shaw more captivating than I find Elizabeth Holmes, but I think they both used...

Right.

Really, isn't that how venture capital investing works? Isn't that how you do things when you're trying to create something new? You know, it's not really lying that it doesn't work, even though it was. Where Jen Shah knew it was lying, is what you're saying, and knew that at the end of the day, it never would work out. There was never going to be a turnaround. That's your point. Exactly. It was a scam out of the gate. And because it bothers me that a lot of people throw this term con artist around. They call everyone a con artist. Right.

But, you know, a con artist is a specific type of creature where they make plans to get money and it's all smoke and mirrors. Nothing really is true. Nothing exists. It's all just a scam. And you realize that and usually they get away. But con artists,

They call Elizabeth Holmes a con artist. I don't think she is a con artist. She is a criminal. She lied and cheated investors, but she's not a con artist. Billy McFarland, Fyre Festival guy. Everyone calls him a con artist. You see him more like Elizabeth Holmes. Like, I can pull it off. Just give me a little bit more time. Give me a little bit more money. I can make it happen. I did a deep dive into Fyre Fest. I'm kind of obsessed. I do believe...

He really did think he could do it. And he tried. But at what point is delusion... I guess at what point is that criminal or not criminal? And that's... No, it's absolutely criminal. I think he is criminal. What he did was criminal for sure. But he's not a con artist. Because if he were a con artist...

He wouldn't have rented that island. He wouldn't have put up the tents. There wouldn't have been tents or sandwiches. He wouldn't be trying to get music acts and sign all these. Like, I think he was just a bad businessman who got carried away with his vision, like Elizabeth Holmes, and thought he could pull it off if you just give him more money, more time, he could do it. And it's interesting because with Elizabeth Holmes, a lot of what her lawyers argued was really this isn't fraud. This was...

Right.

that got her, but Elizabeth Holmes was not convicted of everything she was charged with. And so I think that the jury was also split because they were like, no, she was lying to investors, but she wasn't really lying to clients, to patients. And so there was more of a split there between,

But she was also charged with a lot more crimes and a lot more money than we saw Jen Shah be charged with because the people that Elizabeth Holmes was defrauding, she was defrauding them out of millions at a time where Jen Shah was defrauding your more normal, average, everyday person where when she's defrauding them for thousands and sometimes tens of thousands, it's all that they have. So she's taking a larger percentage of the individual's net worth, even though it's

less of a chunk of money, where Elizabeth Holmes is defrauding less people of much larger sums of money. And it's interesting in the federal sentencing guidelines, the amount of money taken and the amount of victims and the age of the victims all kind of calculate into a sentence. And at the end of the day, Elizabeth Holmes just got binged for over $400 million in restitution, but she's only serving 11 years, the same as Todd Chrisley, who's

And Jen Shaw is serving six. So, you know, the amount of time that they got is not so different when you look at it at the end of the day. And Elizabeth Holmes went to trial. She did. Which, you know, just adds more weight to my belief. She really did believe she was about something bigger than herself. And she was, there is a certain, I love your phrasing, altruistic narcissism. Yes, I think that's what it was. But it wasn't a...

She didn't intend to scam anyone. She really tried to create this thing and she ended up scamming a ton of people.

To make this happen, and it never could happen. She thought it was justified. And it was justified beyond her pocketing the money, is what you're kind of seeing there. I love this conversation so much. Because it really did stick with me when her partner called her a zealot. That was the words in his... It struck me. I've never seen anyone putting forth a sentencing memo to help someone and say that they had...

like a religious fervor to make it happen because then I was sitting there reading it going, wait, is Elizabeth Holmes just like a scientific cult leader? Like this is wild to me that this is how he's likening her but everyone who knew her in their sentencing memos pinned on what you're talking about. She,

She believed that this would work at the end of the day. Even though everyone was telling her no, even though it was an unreasonable belief, even though there was no objective criteria to support the belief, it doesn't matter.

She believed it. And then she likened herself to people like Steve Jobs, who said, you know, oh, you can't make a cell phone like that. And he's like, I believe that we can. She's like, I'm doing the same thing. I'm making an iPhone. And in a way, I mean, yeah. I mean, yeah. If you know anything about Apple and Steve Jobs, he is kind of Elizabeth Holmes. And that's how she saw herself. It worked out for him. Right.

Because ultimately he was able to piece together the right team to create the iPhone, to create the iPod.

but she never could. Who knows, 10 years from now, they may invent this thing that can do all these tests from a drop of blood. The investors wanted it to be true. The Theranos investors wanted this to be true. They wanted to be a part of something that would change the world. And I think they overrode their own red flags because they wanted it to be true. The same way Jen Shah's victims overrode their own red flags because they wanted this thing that was going to change their own life.

This opportunity to make some more money in retirement or make a little bit more money from home to harness the power of the Internet to make their lives a little bit better. All of these victims just wanted it to be true. So at the end of the day, did Jen Shaw ever believe it would be true for them? Maybe not. Did Elizabeth Holmes believe she could make it true for them? Maybe so. Yeah, I think absolutely she did.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.

From unbelievable romantic betrayals. The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family. When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal. This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me.

Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters.

But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to.

Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all-new podcast There and Gone.

It's a real-life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck, and vanished. Nobody hears anything. Nobody sees anything. Did they run away? Was it an accident? Or were they murdered? A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. It was definitely murder for hire for Danielle, not for Richard. He's your son, and in your eyes, he's innocent.

But in my eyes, he's just some guy my sister was with. In this series, I dig into my own investigation to find answers for the families and get justice for Richard and Danielle. Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There and Gone.

So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.

She named her daughter Invicta, Latin for invincible, or unconquered. I mean, it says it all. It kind of does. That's Victoria Thompson, a journalist and executive producer for ABC News. She co-wrote and produced the Dropout podcast for ABC Audio and was an executive producer on the Dropout TV series for Hulu. She's been immersed in the Elizabeth Holmes saga for the past five years.

Some of it will never leave my brain as long as I live. - At this point, I imagine you know more than most

about Elizabeth Holmes. You know more than anyone else on earth, I would wager. Maybe not on earth, but Rebecca Jarvis and Taylor Dunn, who I wrote, reported, and produced both seasons of the podcast with, they know just as much. One of the more surreal experiences was when we were covering the trial and doing this weekly series on the sort of minutiae of the week, the scripted series was shooting in Los Angeles.

So we were kind of going from San Jose, California to Los Angeles and, you know, seeing the real Elizabeth Holmes in this small courtroom and going to the set where it was being portrayed by actors. Sort of an interesting byproduct of that is we were getting all this discovery covering the trial, this cache of 5,000 text messages between her and Sonny. So we would go then back to the writers and say, oh my gosh, you know, we've just gotten all these messages

Very interesting text messages and nicknames they would call each other that then they would go back into the writer's room and start incorporating into scenes. So that was pretty cool. I'm sure they loved it. Like the fresh original ideas they could just ping off of and create something amazing. I think they loved and hated it. They were like, oh my gosh, this is so overwhelming. But yes, I think ultimately they were happy to have some

you know, the real life words. Were you surprised Elizabeth Holmes went to trial? I'm sure her attorneys explained to her. And I learned this doing this podcast for the past few years that especially at the federal level,

If you're federally charged, there is a nearly 100% chance you will be convicted if you go to trial. They have such a high percentage of convictions because the feds have unlimited resources and they're not going to charge you unless they know they can win. So most people in Elizabeth Holmes' position would plead guilty to get half or less of prison time she ended up getting. Did it surprise you she decided to roll the dice and go to trial?

It did not surprise me. I think she has an unwavering kind of confidence in her innocence and really thought she was going to be let off and acquitted of all counts. So honestly, I would have been far more shocked if she had pled. What's your take? Do you think Elizabeth Holmes is a con artist?

Well, I agree with you that at the beginning, she certainly did not intend to go out and defraud anybody. She really was incredibly ambitious. She had real drive to change the world with this revolutionary device that would help people around the world improve health care and really be kind of a true game changer for mankind. And I think she believed that to her core. As the prosecution often says,

would say in their arguments where she's trying to create the product that will ultimately be what her vision, you know, intends. But she had this deadline, which was getting into the Walgreens stores and she ran out of money. So as they kept saying, as a refrain, she ran out of time, she ran out of money and she started to lie. She said,

then doctored pharmaceutical reports. She did things that, you know, she is now convicted of that led investors to believe a product was operating functionally and, you know, not just doing a number of tests, but doing hundreds of tests. The ambitions in the beginning were very noble. And then I do think she was rightfully guilty of fraud by the end. Absolutely. She absolutely is a criminal. She is guilty. She did bad things.

But in my mind, what differentiates her from a regular con artist like Jen Shaw or any other is out of the gate, Jen Shaw's intention was to scam people. Yeah, I would not say they are the same at all. I mean, Elizabeth is a true like...

wide-eyed, dreamy at the beginning was, yes, her intentions were pure. You know, there were red flags, though, even on the early end. Like one of our favorite people we interviewed was Phyllis Gardner, who's this extraordinary professor who, you know, invented time-release technology and pills and genuinely did change, you know, healthcare for the world. Wendell

When Elizabeth went to see her as a sophomore at Stanford and Phyllis Cartner was just like, what are you talking about this? You know, it would be great if, as she's told us, you know, you could create a car that can fly or a car that can roll on square wheels, but that's not,

a real thing. And Elizabeth, you know, kind of famously brushed her off and just said, fine, onto the next and went to another professor, Channing Robertson, who, you know, became one of her great champions and ended up being on her payroll. She did have this, this noble vision for sure. But she also had this kind of, to quote her favorite Yoda, there is no try only do. So she, she really had this tunnel vision for success and,

you know, that I think astounded people around her even at 19 years old.

And that is one trait both Elizabeth Holmes and Jen Shah and every other con artist have in common. This bravado, this ego, this belief that they can do X, Y, Z despite everyone telling them they can't or shouldn't. They know they can. They think they're above the criticism. They think they're above the rules, above the law. So she did have that early on, like, I can do this. They don't know what they're talking about. Yeah.

Yeah, she's a complicated person. Like everybody, you know, her childhood and how that may have led to this situation.

this person that she became. This image of Elizabeth on the running track in high school, and even though she's the slowest person on the track and she's lagging behind everybody, but she refuses to get off the track until she finishes the race, you know, way after everybody else is already off the track. She has this, like, "I will not stop. It does not matter what the naysayers say." A kid who was maybe a little bit of an outsider in high school, didn't fit in socially, wanted to prove herself. She wanted to, like, prove to the world

to her family, to her peers, her parents, her professors, that she was extraordinary. Would you categorize Elizabeth Holmes as charming? I mean, it's impossible that she's not because the way she was able to convince some of the most brilliant minds in the world that she was this true visionary, people who supported her till the very end, everyone talks about this incredible charm she had kind of

you know, looking at you right in the eyes and really just

just absolutely captivating in a kind of intellectual way. And I do think those are the only two things Elizabeth Holmes has in common with Jen Shaw and other con artists is A, the ego, and B, this charm offensive that they can disarm people, intelligent people, people who, quote, should know better. They ignore the red flags. They ignore any skepticism they might have. And they just

get on the ride and go with her, you know? The list is insane. The Henry Kissingers, the Bill Frists, William Cohen, you know, George Shultz, former Secretary of State, just an unbelievable array of people. One of the more interesting parts of the trial for us was seeing some of these men, mostly men, get up on the stand and describe, you know, their experience and their first times meeting Elizabeth and

you know, even when the first Wall Street Journal article came out, they still didn't doubt her one bit. Just hearing like, you know, Wade Millican, Stephen Bird, Jim Mattis, I mean, Mad Dog Mattis, like one after the next of these guys getting on the stand and talking about her charm and her, you know, just how unbelievably impressed they were with her was pretty unbelievable.

It really does prove that famous Mark Twain quote true. It's easier to fool people than it is to convince them they've been fooled.

Even in the face of that Wall Street Journal report, these people believe Elizabeth Holmes. In light of evidence, she's a fraud. And I think it's human psychology at the end of the day. It's not so much that they steadfastly believe in her in light of criticism and evidence against her. It's that it's hard for them to admit they were wrong. They don't want to admit they're wrong.

Absolutely. Yes. It's humiliating. Yeah. In season two of Queen of the Con, we profiled con artist Lizzie Mulder. And I managed to speak to, even after Lizzie Mulder went to federal prison and served time and pled guilty, she had this ardent supporter who was a dog trainer who I talked to. And she's like, you all are just making this up about Lizzie Mulder. She's innocent. She didn't do anything. You all are. And I was just...

I'm stunned that even after years of this woman pleaded guilty and served her time and got out, you still believe her? And then I was schooled by FBI criminal profiler Candace DeLong, who explained to me that basically, yeah, it's hard for some people to admit they were wrong. So it's not so much that they believe the con artist. They just can't come to terms with themselves being wrong because in their mind, if they're wrong about this, they could be wrong about everything. And they don't want to face that.

So they hang on. Oh, my gosh. Absolutely. Do you have any theories or opinions on why Elizabeth Holmes wanted to go to that federal prison in Bryan, Texas, where Jen Shaw is at? I mean, I don't just because we haven't spoken to anyone that has said

any insight into that. You know, they call it club fed. And it's very similar to the federal prison where Martha Stewart served time. As prisons go, it seems pretty manageable. I'm sure those sort of things weighed in. I didn't know they call it club fed. To me, that engenders kind of a

It's an easier place to do time than other prisons. I do remember pictures and photographs of Martha Stewart every now and then in the prison yard, outside, hanging out with people. And by Martha Stewart's accounts, if I recall, she had somewhat of a

pleasant time there. She made friends. She taught people how to sew. Right. She was like the Cormac captains. I heard those Martha Stewart accounts too, but I've heard other prisoners say that it's not like that. It's a prison, that there are some unsanitary conditions. But I've definitely heard accounts that run the gamut.

Jen definitely wasn't taking in the overhead that Elizabeth Holmes had. Emily D. Baker again. Because we've seen in all the reporting and the reporting from John Carreyrou that Elizabeth Holmes was burning millions a month in trying to make this happen in payroll and in overhead and in scientists. She was running a business. And then as it wasn't going well, started lying about...

what was happening to float it versus Jen Shah, who didn't seem to ever take on that kind of overhead. All of Jen Shah's overhead went to people to milk money out of victims. Exactly. Selling things that don't really exist. Yeah. That's the difference. A con artist sells things that don't exist.

And Elizabeth Holmes of Billy McFarland. Selling the dream. They believe they can do it. Yeah. Selling hope. I think when Elizabeth Holmes goes to prison and meets Jen Shaw, and based on Jen Shaw's ideation of putting a show together-

I suddenly see that old Ethel Merman song. Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you. No, you can't. Yes, I can. No, you can't. You know, like them doing a take on that for the inmates as entertainment one Friday. I can see it. I can also see both of them commending

commiserating how they were wronged. Because I think Jen Shaw sees herself more like an Elizabeth Holmes. Like, I was wronged. These are marketing practices. Maybe I lied in telling people how much they're going to make. I think that's how Jen Shaw wants to see herself. And I just...

I'm very interested to see what happens here and if we end up seeing Jen Shaw and Elizabeth Holmes becoming besties while they are in custody together and whether we see that shared in the stories Jen Shaw is doing on Instagram. Jen set up a website that you can pay monthly for access. I mean, who's giving Jen Shaw their credit card number anymore? Right.

But you could pay monthly for access to kind of her diaries in custody. And she's been sharing those things on Instagram as well. And yeah,

It's really interesting, but people are still curious. People are still interested. Yeah. And they want to know the rest of this story. And I want to know if Jen Shaw and Elizabeth Holmes become buddies in custody or not. I mean, Elizabeth Holmes has had the, you know, the New York Times article that's trying to reframe her as Liz. And so does she want to kind of steer clear and keep her head down? But you need friends in custody. Yeah.

Only time will tell. Make sure you listen to our next bonus episode where I interview reality television impresario Carlos King, who actually produced several seasons of Housewives, and the incredible Kate Casey, a true Housewives expert and host of the podcast Reality Life with Kate Casey. What's the latest you both have heard about what Jen Shah has been up to in federal prison?

She's running that joint. I think she's found her bottom bitch. That's the woman. Right, Kate? She's found her bottom bitch. You haven't seen the end of Jen Shaw. She will be on reality television shows for the rest of her life. If you're enjoying Queen of the Con, click that share button and send it to your friends and family. Also, if you can, leave us a five-star review. Reviews really help other listeners find us.

Queen of the Con, The Unreal Housewife, is a production of AYR Media and iHeart Media, hosted by me, Jonathan Walton. Executive Producers, Jonathan Walton for Jonathan Walton Productions, and Elisa Rosen for AYR Media. Written by Jonathan Walton. Segment Producer, Gregory Harvey. Senior Associate Producer, Jill Pesheznik.

Executive Producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard.

Does money stress you out? Let Facet flip your financial chaos into clarity. We feel way more confident and secure in our finances. And with that comes a sense of freedom. Financial planning from Facet is here to help you improve your life today, tomorrow, and every day after that. Facet was really the place where we saw all of the tools and the people coming together. Visit facet.com, F-A-C-E-T.com to learn more. This ad is sponsored by Facet. Facet Wealth is an SEC registered investment advisor. This is not an offer to buy or sell securities, nor is it investment, legal, or tax advice. These testimonials are from current Facet members who are not competent.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.

Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life, because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives.

Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.