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Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. I am Adisu Demesi. Adisu, welcome. Look at us. We are in the studio. No John, no Lovett, no Tommy. We have taken over. The Bay Area has invaded Los Angeles. That's right. That's right. Okay. On today's show, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris hit back at Donald Trump for posting a video that uses Nazi language. Trump refuses to say whether he'll limit access to contraception if he wins. Manhattan hush money trial heads to a jury next week. And some yahoos are still arguing that the whole thing might help him.
And our longtime friends, Brian Wallach, Sandra Abravaya, and Katie Couric, stopped by to talk with John about their incredibly powerful new documentary about Brian's ALS diagnosis and how Brian and Sandra decided to turn that crisis into an opportunity to push for a cure. You really won't want to miss this interview. It's incredibly powerful. Amazing folks. God bless them. But first, on Monday, Donald Trump, a periodic dining companion of no Nazis, posted a video to his Truth Social account that used fake newspaper articles in the background. Included in those articles was the headline, What's Next for America?,
Under that phrase was creation of a unified Reich. Everyone quite rightly freaked out about this, and the Trump campaign finally took it down after, oh, about 18 hours. The Biden campaign obviously saw an opening because both Joe Biden and Kamala Harris immediately went on the attack. Let's take a listen. What's next for America? Is this not his official account? A unified Reich? That's Hitler's language. That's not America's. He cares about holding on to power. I care about you. Just yesterday,
The former president of the United States, who praises dictators, who said there were very fine people on both sides in Charlottesville, took to social media, highlighted language from Nazi Germany. A kind of rhetoric is unsurprising coming from the former president, and it is appalling.
The Trump campaign blamed a staffer who they claimed hadn't actually seen the Reich language. The video also appears to use stock footage that includes this language. However, this is just the most recent example of Trump playing footsie with Nazi language. Here's a quick reminder. They're poisoning the blood of our country. That's what they've done. They poison mental institutions. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.
Any Jewish people that vote for a Democrat, I think it shows either a total lack of knowledge or great disloyalty. Isn't that anti-Semitic? No, no, no. It's only in your head. It's only anti-Semitic in your head. Even these spoiled, rich Jewish guys, they can't believe how good this is, you know?
Now, you'll notice that Trump never accidentally posts a video that has language like universal health care or stumbles into saying something like democracy is good. Exactly. Nazi stuff. Yeah. Or diversity. The blame the intern strategy, really. I mean, it's 2024, guys. It's a classic of the genre. Yeah, seriously. We have read a thousand times about how more disciplined and strategic and better staff this Trump campaign is than his previous efforts. So how the hell does this keep happening? First of all, you know, I'm
masks slip off sometimes. It seems to be one of those times. Look, they do not deserve the benefit of the doubt on this one. You've played all those clips, obviously. There have been enough instances of Easter eggs and hat tips to right-wing extremists that, you know, you didn't play the clip from the 2020 debate, the stand back and stand by to the Proud Boys. I mean,
after seven, eight, ten, dozens of times this happening, they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. I think that they pulled it down is a somewhat rare, honestly, acknowledgement that they really fucked this one up, but they have run a smarter campaign this time, especially in the primary, but...
You know, you're it's like it's like your crazy ex who claims that they, you know, have changed. Right. Like then you see some of the old person come out as we get. And I think as we get closer to the election and as, you know, it gets more stressful for the campaign and for Trump himself, you're going to see who he really is and who, you know, that mass slip off more and more. I mean, we're really grading Trump and his campaign on a pretty steep curve.
Right. I mean, the campaigns in 16 and 20, even though he won in 16, was an absolute shit show. And 20 was just like filled with grifters who were trying to make money off the thing. And this one, like Chris LaCivita and Susie Wiles are like real political operatives. Yeah, they're actual good political minds, as it were. And the campaign seems to have...
More of a strategy. There is, they more adhere to a larger sort of strategic vision of how they're going to win. And I think they're probably spending money with more discipline than they did in the past. But the product is the product. Right. That's the thing is it's Trump. The thing that hasn't changed is Trump. Yeah. And, and,
you can put lipstick on a pig, you know, whatever, use whatever metaphor and algae you want. Like ultimately, the truth is going to come out about him and he's going to have to present himself at the debate on June 27th, many times in public, unfiltered between now and November 5th and, you
You know, as much as Chris and Susie are going to try to cover up who he really is, it's going to continue to come out. And things like this, he likes, you know, stirring the pot like this. And he's doing this on purpose to send a message to his right-wing supporters. And we'd have to call him out on it. And the president and the vice president did. What do you make of the president and vice president's response? The campaign has leaned incredibly hard into this. They were...
Mitch Landrieu has been out. There have been videos. They put out a very lengthy statement. They clearly want this fight. What do you think? Why do you think they want it and what do you make of the way they're executing that? So I think they want it because...
The more this election is about a choice between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, the better. And because this is the first time that Donald Trump has run as a challenger to incumbent, right? In 2016, it was an open seat. In 2020, he was the incumbent. So naturally, this election is going to be more about the incumbent, Joe Biden, sitting there than about Donald Trump. And so what I think they're doing is any opportunity that they get to remind people who Donald Trump is and that he is the
The alternative in this race, as the president always says, don't compare me to the almighty, compare me to the alternative. Donald Trump is the alternative. And this was an opportunity where they messed up and they gave, you know, a small hole for the campaign to run through and they're trying to drive a truck through it. And so I think it's it makes sense as a strategy. And I think, you know, particularly what the president said in that clip that was played about.
you know, he's making this all about himself. He's in it for himself, for power for himself. Joe Biden is in it for, you know, I care about you. That to me is, you know, distills in a lot of ways what this election is, needs to be all about to present that choice pretty clearly to voters. So it makes sense as a strategic matter to, you know, jump on an opponent's mistake. And I think as a tactical matter, what they're saying is,
is the right message to put forward. You know, when I first saw the video and saw the sort of brouhaha about it on Monday evening, I guess when it was, my first thought was like, this is 2017 all over again. It just felt like we were just doing the same dance we have always done that has never really moved the numbers in any way, shape, or form. It's Donald Trump does something on social media. It was Twitter back in the day. We're outraged by it.
A bunch of folks like myself and other resistance people, they tweet about it. And then cable news goes bananas about it. And nothing happens. Nothing happens. And one of the critiques that has existed about how Democrats have handled Trump is we swing at every pitch. Yeah. Now, I think in this case, this is actually an example of how I think the Biden campaign has learned some of the lessons of the past. Because...
Look, if your opponent puts out a video that says what's next for America is a unified right, you have to respond. You can't. That is a giant fat one across the plate. You have to swing. But what they did is they swung strategically. Right. And to your point, that the narrative that Trump cares about himself, Biden cares about you like that is the ultimate.
That is their narrative about Trump. That is what they want to drive with voters. So they saw not, they saw an opportunity that would have virality, right? Because so much of what's happening breaks through to no one. And this one may not either, but there, this is a sort of thing that at least is controversial enough that there's a chance that it like jumps from Nicole Wallace's show to tick tock. Like a normal voter may see it. It's clippable in a way. And, and, and has the potential for virality in a way that, you know, some of the pitches don't,
that come across the plate don't. And I do think that, you know, we're probably going to talk more about this, the
Things that remind voters out there about Trump's extremism, about the chaos that he brings, about it just puts the choice in stark relief. You know, part of the challenge for the Biden presidency and Biden is that he's been a normal guy who's sort of treated the presidency normally. And it's caused people to take a step back from politics. And as, you know, swing voters in particular, who it still may, they're not necessarily paying close attention to the race, as they step back into the political arena, they're
the Biden campaign and those of us who are supporting the Biden campaign need to make sure that they, we remind people about who Donald Trump was because that has been memory hold a bit. Right. So even as this is, it does feel a little more 2017 ish, like 2017 in the vote, in the minds of a lot of voters was a long, long time ago and it doesn't exist. Yeah, it was, it was seven years ago. Right. And it also just,
It's gone, right? Charlottesville, things like what the vice president talked about, memory hold for a lot of people. So we are reminding people of something that's probably in the back of their head and bringing it to the forefront, again, to present a choice between Joe Biden, the guy who cares about you and is a normal guy, and Donald Trump, who is the guy who's in it for himself and a chaos agent. The other thing that's interesting here, it's one of the reasons why I wanted to play the clip, is Blueprint Research, a Democratic...
polling in a messaging firm looked at has done a lot of polling on voters under 30 and one of the things they discovered was voters under 30 particularly voters under 25
know none of the things that we all just could cite off the top of our head. Like I was working with a producer. So I was like, can you get this clip? Can you get the very fine people? One like I know, you know, the greatest, I know we all know the greatest talking about Nazis. And we have this assumption and it really drives a lot of, I think the political coverage of this campaign is that everyone knows everything there is to know about Donald Trump and Joe Biden. And therefore nothing new, there is no new information about Donald Trump that could move voters. But if you are 25, you're
Like you, you probably weren't paying attention to any of this, right? You were 18 years old or 17 years old. I hope when you were 18, you were not watching, you know, Don Lemon at night, right? Like you were doing your homework, having fun with friends. And so this is, can be new information. It's a reminder for a lot of people, but it can also be new information for other voters. The other thing about it that's interesting, and we can get on this a little more later is,
Swing voters, persuadable voters are usually engaged with political news less than everyone else. But the one thing that has changed this time is when they were not fully engaged in previous elections, they still had a general sense of what was happening because you kind of it was kind of hard if you paid any attention to news to not like just understand what was happening, particularly in the Trump years. Trump was front and center. Now, if you were either.
Like a news junkie who like knows everything or you know nothing. Like there is very little people in the middle who are just kind of like they have like one foot in. Or you're getting it very passively on social media. And TikTok primarily. And Instagram reels and not Twitter or X from creators that are.
Who knows? You know, some of the stuff we don't even see, the people who are in politics don't see, but is sometimes factually compromised, let's say, or sometimes intentionally so from nefarious actors. So, yeah, it is really interesting that you can't like...
By osmosis learn about what's going on in politics certainly not the same way you could 12 years ago in the Obama campaign or even eight years ago with Clinton or even four years Yeah four years ago everyone people are locked in their house and they were like can see you were consuming the news because he told you whether you could go to work the next week or When they get a vaccine and so you were watching watching more news Ratings were up because people had to watch it for reasons that were not just politics and then you were getting politics and you were probably seeing a
like one of his probably great strategic areas in the election was doing those daily COVID briefings. So if you wanted to find out, you know, when schools were going to reopen or when to get a shot or not get a shot, it was going to be you had to see Trump. And now that is now no one sees Trump. That's right. That's right. Speaking of seeing Trump, here's something voters may care even more about than a Nazi promoting former president.
In an interview with a Pittsburgh TV station, Donald Trump declined to rule out limits on contraception if he wins. Let's take a listen. So related to this is the whole issue of contraceptives. Do you support any restrictions on a person's right to contraception?
Well, we're looking at that and I'm going to have a policy on that very shortly. And I think it's something that you'll find interesting. And it's another issue that's very interesting. But you will find it, I think, very smart. I think it's a smart decision. But we'll be releasing it very soon.
I would note that it seems pretty clear that Donald Trump has no idea what the question is, may not know what his policy is, and has been promising a contraception policy in a few weeks for months now. Yeah, maybe years. I don't know. But he's obviously left a huge opening for Democrats. What do you make of this and how should Democrats take advantage of it? Gift. I mean...
Absolute gift. I think we should talk about driving a truck through a hole. This is a gaping one that we should absolutely lean into. It's pretty clear. You maybe saw on Truth Social, he tried to clean this one up immediately. This might be one of the benefits of Trump being a bit in the background is that I'm not sure a post on Truth Social is cleaning up any messes with respect to this, but it works.
we won't let him, you know, Democrats should not let him. It is, it is one of the core issues of this campaign. The long tail of Dobbs remains. It is as strong as ever. And let's be real and be serious and be clear with ourselves and with the voters. This is part of the Trump second term agenda. Like this,
The opposite is the beginning. Contraception is on the table. Project 2025, you probably have seen this, like the banning birth control is, or at least limiting birth control, restricting birth control is part of the Trump second term agenda. And so I think there's the specifics about this, right? How backwards it is to talk about, you know, banning birth control, but it's also an opening to talk about what the real consequences of a Trump second term. We are not just talking about Trump
the person. We were talking about Trump, the agenda. And Trump, the person, is reprehensible, but Trump, the agenda, is just as reprehensible. And we cannot let... We can't talk about the former without talking about the latter. I mean, if you think Trump's position on abortion is unpopular, wait till you meet his new position on contraception. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Which is, like I gave some examples in the Navigator, in a recent Navigator research poll, 74% of voters think that access to birth control pills should be much easier. That includes more than 60% of independents and more than 50% of Republicans.
And 80%, nearly 80% of voters think that birth control pills should be available over the counter without a prescription. And so this is- It's like, it's one of the few things that Americans agree on, regardless of where you live, your party, et cetera. It's pretty standard part of American culture and American society now. And he is squarely in the minority and wants to put federal policies in place to legislate this. So it's
It's a clear win for Democrats. It's a clear win on the campaign side. And the key is we can't let it just be one of this is one of those pitches that we have to keep keep hitting over the course of the next six. I mean, it is, you know, one of the rules in politics is you want to focus the voters minds on issues that unite your base and divide theirs. This is a perfect example of that. Right. You have just this week.
Virginia Governor Glenn Youngkin vetoing a right to contraception bill passed by the Democratic legislature. We know that Senate Republicans have already blocked efforts to pass a law to enshrine the right of contraception. We know that Justices Thomas and Alito have looked at and are revisiting the Griswold case, which guaranteed the right to contraception, the right to privacy. And so this is on the table, and we talked about this in the podcast the other day,
Trump will have a Supreme Court. What do you think those next two justices are going to feel about contraception that replaced Alito and Thomas? Like it is like this. This is very much in the margin. It is. And I kind of wanted to bring up the Nazi video and the contraception comments in tandem because it does speak to this broader debate within the democratic universe about what it is we talk about. And the Biden folks, they did talk about the contraception thing, but they made a choice.
uh, to focus on, focus their energy on the Nazi comment, not the contraception comment. It doesn't mean that they won't run ads on the contraception comment down the line. It will, it will come. It will be heard from again. Let's just put it like that. But I, but I think it speaks to just sort of this, we, Trump is a target rich opportunity on a daily basis. And it's like, what do we do? How do you pick, what do we talk about? Um, what's your sort of take on that debate? Where do you, how do you fall? Yeah, it's, I think there's two things I think that are sort of
prerequisite issues to talk about in this election. And, you know, we already talked about the message, which I think can overlay on all this. One is reproductive freedom. The other is the cost of living. One is sort of us on offense. One, honestly, is one us a little bit more on defense. But reproductive freedom is in
in and of itself a winning issue. You just talked about all that. But it also is a gateway to talk about what comes next, right? And voters believe that. I think until Dobbs, I'm not sure it was as persuasive, but now you can very persuasively make the case to voters that
They came for your reproductive freedom. What's next? The freedom to marry, the freedom to vote, the freedom to retire with dignity, the freedom to use birth control. And that is a consequence, a potential consequence of reelecting Donald Trump. So both for the issue itself and what it allows us to talk about, I think abortion rights and reproductive freedom have to be core to our message on the
On the cost of living, harder issue, right? We can't convince people that gas is cheap or what have you. But I think it goes back to the frame about who's going to fight for you and who's going to care for you. Joe Biden has done things in his presidency, significant things, to lower the cost of significant things for people. Inflation Reduction Act and everything that's in there, we could go into it ad nauseum. There's a lot of – there's a Christmas tree from which to choose, but –
But Joe Biden has tried and cares about you. And what did Donald Trump do the first thing he did when he went into the administration, economically speaking? Tax cuts for his rich friends, right? And we're still bearing some of the or feeling some of the effects of that. And so who is going to go in there and actually put what a middle class, a lower middle class family cares about at the center of their agenda? Joe Biden, who's already shown he's going to do it, or Donald Trump, who's already shown you what he's going to do, look out for himself and his rich friends. Those two issues, I think, are important.
If we can't make those cases, it's not that the other stuff, democracy, climate, like everything matters. But if we can't sort of make those two cases, I think we are going to be in a really tough spot. Last thing I'll say is, and I kind of referenced this earlier, character cannot be the only thing. We all think Donald Trump is a terrible person. He is a terrible person. But voters this election, I think, are particularly transactional, particularly political.
looking at their bottom line because frankly they have to, especially swing voters. And so it can't just be that Trump is bad. It has to be that what Trump will do is bad. And it is hard for Democrats, it's hard for hardcore Democrats like myself to ignore the reprehensible nature of the person, but we have to go deeper than that if we're going to be successful in the election.
It's interesting because a lot of, you know, it's very clear that Donald Trump's mere presence on the public stage, like morally offends Joe Biden. Yeah. Right. And as it should, it should do it for all of us. And probably everyone listening to this podcast. And that comes through in how he thinks about him. The character thing is hard. Like, you know, there is the sort of, I think, somewhat unfairly infamous ad from the Clinton campaign in 2016 of a little girl watching Donald Trump on television that sort of became the
Shorthand for what not to do. Yeah, shorthand for why Clinton lost. That is giving one television ad way too much credit. But there was a sense that a lot of the message was that Donald Trump is a terrible person who, I mean, who also do terrible things. But it was, you know, he was just like a such a shock to the political system in terms of what what how often he lied. The things, you know, his corruption and all of that, that, you know, people couldn't avoid talking about it.
And Trump is actually, I think, too, you know, in a pretty strategic way, made his lack of character an asset in this election, which is when he is making his what is his most, and this is a sad statement on everything, his most broadly persuasive message, it is, I'm an asshole, but I'm going to be an asshole for you. Right? You may disagree with...
How I act, what I say, even what I believe, and that can go right or left, but I am strong enough and tough enough and I'm not going to give a shit about those other people. I'm going to give a shit for you. And like that, like that works. And so then you have to turn that around and say, how do we turn that part of him against him? Right. How do we make it be about what he would do? Exactly right. And I think.
There is a tendency to the point about swinging at pitches. We get so rightly morally outraged that sometimes we don't make that second step. It's like, Trump is a racist. Trump is a misogynist. And yes, he is. And yes, he is. But what will that mean for...
the mother in suburban Phoenix who is struggling to pay her bills. And that means that when he gets there, he's going to do bad things like take away your right to birth control or take away your right to marry or whatever it might be. And so making that second step critical is,
And making sure that we don't fall into the trap of not doing that is obviously like the hardest thing to do for political professionals and observers alike. But like it is – I can't stress it enough. It is required to win the election in my opinion because swing voters, people who are potentially not listening to this podcast –
they need the second step to decide to vote for Joe Biden. You know, in the list of things you mentioned, inflation and reproductive freedom as the big issues, cost of living, et cetera. You know, one issue that is central to so much of how Democrats talk about this election, very central to a lot of what the Biden campaign talks about, is democracy. I've been pretty skeptical that saving democracy is going to be a good message for us. I've
You see all the polls that show that basically 4% of people think the political system's working. So if we become the defenders of democracy, we're becoming defenders of the system. 96% of people think it's not working. However, I was struck by a report in Bloomberg Businessweek this week where reporter Josh Green wrote that in focus groups, including some run by friends of ours like David Binder, who worked for Obama and is working for Biden now, and Sarah Longwell, who's been on this podcast before, have seen
Real fear amongst persuadable voters that Donald Trump would try to stay a third term and that that is moving people towards Biden. Have you seen that in any of the research that you look at? Not specifically. I mean, I honestly haven't looked. It certainly isn't sort of popping up on its own. I can be convinced that it would be a useful argument, but I think...
it is not going to be as potent as the arguments about, you know, cost of living about abortion rights and others. And it's not that I think democracy also is like another layer, right. It's on the, what is Trump coming for next? Like there is a, there's a bigger beta is like, are we, is it, are we, are we framing this conversation about freedom? Yeah. We frame about democracy. Yeah. And I think freedom is, I mean, we saw this in 2022 very explicitly. I think it's still, it's still valid in 2024. That,
Freedom is also a word, A, and a concept I think that is more accessible to voters than democracy. And so the more we can talk about freedom and the freedom to vote, the freedom to participate, whatever, however any organization might want to lean into it, the better it'll be. It's one more tool in the arsenal to talk about what Trump will take away from you if he becomes president again.
I was struck by this in part because on Tuesday's podcast, Tommy and Favreau and I talked about Trump's NRA speech and how the press really focused on Trump kind of almost in jest throwing it, like kind of trolling the audience and the reporters about serving a third term and getting the crowd to chant third term, which is concerning in an NRA convention. Yeah.
And as opposed to Trump saying he was going to repeal all of Biden's gun safety laws. But I do. And so we kind of said, like, once again, everyone, Democrats, the press are missing the big the thing that really matters. We're focusing. We're we're gravitating towards this shiny object. Right. But.
I can see and this is sort of how you like how we should think about messaging in any campaign is if the message is Donald Trump only cares about power for himself. You can fit the third term thing under that into it. Yes, exactly. It's not. And I do like that. You know what the president said in that tick tock yesterday. He's only in it for himself. He's in it for the power. I'm in it for you. I care about you.
That is a message. You're the master of message, not me. But that is a message under which you can talk about any number of issues. And...
It's not that, and I kind of misframed this in my earlier answer to your question, which is like, it's not the issue of abortion per se. It's not the issue of the cost of living per se that is going to convince voters. It's the feeling that Joe Biden is going to do good things for those, with respect to those issues and Donald Trump is going to do bad things. And so you need an overarching message to fit things under. Same with democracy, same with climate, same with any, pick your issue. You can fit it into that frame and that means it's a pretty good frame.
The election is less than 100 days away. Oof. Wow. That might sound scary, but it also means you still have 100 days to donate and volunteer your ass off. And whether you're falling out of a coconut tree or anxiously clinging to one, now is the time to volunteer, donate, and canvas your ass off.
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Okay, moving on to Trump's Manhattan election interference trial. Oh, God. Okay. Here we go. Here we go. On Tuesday, the defense rested after calling just two witnesses to the surprise of absolutely no one. Donald Trump was not one of those witnesses. Come on. Closing arguments will be next week, and then the jury will get the case.
John and I are going to talk to Andrew Weissman on Friday's pod for all the legal details about the cases has come in and how it's going to proceed. But I want to talk to you about the politics. And over the weekend, Ross Duthat of The New York Times had a particularly trollish column that said Trump's trial is actually helping him. He wrote, and I quote, even sinful demagogues can face a politically motivated prosecution and stand to gain from the appearance of legal persecution. And that appearance so far has been this trial's political gift to Donald Trump. This was offered, of course, with absolutely no polling or data to support his point, but
Desu, what is your response to this scorcher of a hot take? It is a classic of the genre, for sure, again, of hot take-ism. But I do not agree that being on criminal trial has helped somebody politically. But, you know...
I will be honest, I don't necessarily agree that it has hurt him yet. You know, in general, the more we're talking about Trump, the more he's sort of out front on things, as we talked about before, the more we're presenting a contrast between Trump and Biden, I think the better. And so to the extent that this is bringing him back to light, I think that's on balance good.
Goes back to the woman in Suburban Phoenix I talked about. The substance of the trial, which to be clear, I'm not really following it that closely. I'm trying to consume the media like a normal person. I see what I see, but I don't- You said that as you're sitting in on a political podcast. Yeah, true. But no, I'm not like-
you know, watching cable news for the, like, you know, the OJ trial style coverage that it, that it may be given. Anyway, point is the, the woman in suburban Phoenix who is struggling to pay her bills, like this is about hush money and adult film star, uh, you know, kickbacks and, and,
Does that have anything to do with, you know, with a voter's day-to-day life? No, like the substance of the trial doesn't. And so I can get why Democrats don't want to talk about it, right? It's like, okay, do I really want to talk about Stormy Daniels? Like, no, I don't want to necessarily talk. That's not affecting people's life day-to-day. I think it's kind of been a wash. It's been a bit of a nothing burger politically, electorally so far.
The verdict, that's a different story. And, you know, we'll see what happens. I think either... I am not... I will not predict what, at this point, what a conviction or acquittal or a hung jury will do. But I do think that will be a moment where...
people will have to talk about this and actually have something specific to talk about. This is trial machinations and salacious details and things that like are not moving swing voters in May of 2024. Like I understand intellectually all the things you just said, but then there's another way of looking at that, which is the former president of the United States
The person who is right now at least a coin flip away from return to the White House is on trial in the media capital of the world for a crime that emanated from an affair with an adult film star that could theoretically have him be sentenced to prison in the next three weeks.
Like, why is this not the biggest story in the country? I mean, it is the biggest story in the country. I think it's just not persuading people. Well, is it the biggest story in the country? Like, you know, there's a PBS NewsHour poll which was that 55% of the country is paying zero to little attention about this. So, yeah. It is the biggest political story right now, for sure. I think there are two reasons for that. One is the things you talk about about the media environment. People... It's easy to ignore things now. It is easy to not passively find out about things anymore. I think that is...
just the nature of the beast right now in our political news economy. But I think the bigger thing is opinions about Trump, I think I said this the last time I was on this podcast, are pretty baked in with most of the electorate. Like people think he's a creep. Even the people who vote for him think he's a creep. People can easily believe the allegations that are being made in court about him. And I think, you know, the hard thing that I've had to internalize, especially over now, I started with the Clinton campaign and
January of 2016. So now it's been like eight years that I've been fighting this guy. His superpower in some ways is that he has such firm opinions that have been established about him, not just from those eight years, but from 10 years of The Apprentice and 20 years of being in Home Alone or whatever, that like getting people to
You're not going to change people's opinions about him. You have to get them to change their opinion about what he might do for them, going back to our previous conversation. So I think it's partially just that it's easier to ignore things in 2024. I think it's a lot about
These facts are reinforcing what people already believe about him and are not necessarily going to affect their vote choice. I think a verdict very well could. And, you know, you don't want a felon as your president. And that's not a Democratic or a Republican statement, I don't think. So we'll see if it's hung, if he's acquitted, I think it could swing the other way. But
That's uncharted territory. That is for sure for all of us. Obviously, there's one pretty specific detailed reason why people are paying less attention is it's not on TV. Yeah. I mean, if it were OJ Trial, you know, to bring up a truly dated...
People in our 40s know, but the people in our 20s are like, what? They saw the FX dramatization of it. That's even an interesting question I've been sort of wrestling with, the theoretical one about the media environment is, let's say it was televised and it is live on CNN, MSNBC, and probably not Fox.
Every day. Right. And maybe on big days, like the first day of the Cohen testimony, Michael Cohen testimony, you know, the networks break in at, I don't know, 10 a.m. I don't know what they're breaking in from.
Like, do even more people see that? Like the way people more see it is that it's on video. So therefore there will be clips of it on TikTok and Instagram. So people would see that. But just the same like, and this is so much of what I think about with just sort of like political or media strategy now is we're all just talking to each other all the time. So it was just, we would just have more ways to watch it. The same people. Yeah.
But I think you're right. The video, you know, think about the George Floyd video or Rodney King back in the day or any number of things. Like when you can catch things, video has a unique power that audio does not and that drawings and graphics do not, et cetera. So I do think it would provide both like grift for people
creators to do funny things on TikTok or more content from which to draw other content as it were. But do I I don't think it changes the fundamental second point which is
It's kind of saying things about Trump that the people who like Trump like about him, which is gross. And the people who don't like Trump don't like about him. And the swing voters kind of know about him and have baked into their opinions about him and are looking for another reason to vote against him or vote for Joe Biden. I'm a thousand percent with you on reproductive freedom, cost of living. That is the whole thing. But one of Barack Obama's communications rules is you have to talk about the elephant in the room.
Right. Everyone knows the elephant's there. So it's weird when you don't talk about it. And once again, Donald Trump is on trial and polls have shown media polls. I've looked at show that when you describe the charges in this case, majorities of people, including a not insignificant swath of 2020 and current Trump voters find it pretty concerning. Yeah. Most people do not know what those chargers are. They kind of have a, it's the extent they have any sense of why he's on trial. They,
It's kind of vague. Stormy Daniels are vaguely aware of. They don't really know about the election interference part. They know it's not classified documents and violent insurrection. But like and then you see which, by the way, I will just as an aside say.
I think those trials will and would be more concerning to voters. But we're talking about theoretical exercise right now. Exactly. But anyway, continue. And this is another challenge we have as Democrats. It's just there's such asymmetry in the messaging around this, which is Trump is out every day in every forum defining what this trial is about. And Mike Johnson is showing up in New York. Yeah, and he's bringing these fucking yahoos and the red ties in to be there. And then you have the right-wing media apparatus saying,
Just, you know, everything from Fox News to the local conservative person that is on midday Iowa radio when people are driving around defining this in a way. Witch hunt, witch hunt, witch hunt. Yeah, witch hunt, witch hunt. And there's no one.
saying the opposite. Well, you know what I think that is? The uncertainty about the outcome. Yeah. Right? Because you go out there and talk about this for two months or however long, how long has the trial been? Feels like two months. Yeah. Talk about how terrible it is, et cetera, et cetera, and then a jury of his peers acquits him and you look like a doofus. Yeah. Right? So, and I feel like the, you know, the Republicans who are there can,
can just say witch hunt, witch hunt, witch hunt. And if he gets convicted, they'll just keep saying witch hunt, witch hunt, witch hunt. But I think... And if he's acquitted or hung jury, then it's like...
Proven innocence. Told you it was proven, right? So I think a lot of it just basically has to do with the fact that if you can't be sure of the outcome, it's really hard to go out there and crow about the facts, et cetera, and then have the legal system let them go. So again, verdict comes down. I think everything changes. I think that's a real, real big elephant that you absolutely can't ignore. But I get why, and I generally support the idea that like,
While the legal process is playing out, it's a high risk situation to talk about this in public if you're a campaign or what have you. And there are plenty of other things like Nazi videos and contraception bans that are probably a more effective use of the limited airspace you get to talk about politics. Do you think if he is convicted that Democrats should talk about it?
I think, yeah, I do. I mean, I think that becomes an elephant that is like so crazy to ignore that it just seems ridiculous at some level. Do I think it's going to be the only thing we talk about? No. Everything I said before still holds. But I think having a convicted felon in the White House is actually probably in the range of arguments that we can make.
It probably ranges towards the top. Maybe not the top, but it probably ranges towards the top. One of my theories of this election is that we're – like, yes, the campaign needs an overarching narrative about why Biden and why not Trump, right? And probably a little more why not Trump than why Biden is going to be more effective.
But the way the media ecosystem has changed and even the way advertising has changed, right, the way you have to be much more other than the stuff you're doing and basically football games where you see reach audiences. It's very targeted. You're reaching small number of people is that you can you can have a much more like targeted micro messaging like there. We know there are a group of Nikki Haley voters who disagree with Joe Biden on a whole bunch of stuff.
don't really like Donald Trump, and are concerned about the idea of a felon as president, right? And so, like, you can target those people, but that may not be what is in the ad that runs during the Georgia-Michigan game in October, right? Yes, exactly right. I don't know. I don't think there's a Georgia-Michigan game, but you get two big battlegrounds. That's my point, yes. I think you're generally...
Yeah. The reason why I'm hesitating is because I actually think the medicine is kind of the same for a lot of people right now. Right? And so the macro message and the micro message oddly align. But there are probably some, there are definitely some things that work better with some communities than others. The interesting thing though is that
abortion and the cost of living is broadly popular. Yeah. Cross tab any poll you see, however you want to 25 to 34 year old women with red hair. Like I guarantee you cost of living is the top issue. Right. So when that, when that is the case, you can't, those are the prerequisites, but maybe not the only thing that you can use to persuade folks.
All right. One quick thing before we go to break. I am thrilled to announce that John is back with season four of The Wilderness. Yes. We've been, Democrats have been in the wilderness for a long ass time now. I think I'm on episode one. That's right. The Wilderness is John's deep dive into who the undecided voters are, where they are, and how we can win them over. John talks to all of our favorite political experts and strategists and organizers about what's working and what isn't. It's truly great podcast. It is mandatory listening for people who are working in politics, who are even
Even if you're just somebody trying to convince your Biden skeptical cousin not to vote for RFK Jr., this podcast will help you figure that out. Listen to the trailer in the Pod Save America feed and make sure to subscribe so you don't miss the first two episodes, which drop on May 26th. When we come back, Brian Wallach, Sandra Abravaya, and Katie Couric.
The election is less than 100 days away. Oof. Wow. That might sound scary, but it also means you still have 100 days to donate and volunteer your ass off. And whether you're falling out of a coconut tree or anxiously clinging to one, now is the time to volunteer, donate, and canvas your ass off.
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We have some very special guests here with us today. Brian Wallach and Sandra Abravaya are two of our friends and former colleagues from the Obama years. They met on a campaign trail, got engaged while working in the White House. And in 2017, right after the birth of their second daughter, Brian was diagnosed with ALS at the age of 36.
They have since become two of the most inspiring and effective advocates for people living with ALS and are the subjects of the new Amazon documentary, For Love and Life, No Ordinary Campaign, which comes out on May 28th and was produced by friend of the pod, Katie Couric, who's also here with us today. Katie, Brian, Sandra, welcome to Pod Save America and thanks for being here. Yay!
friend. Thank you for having us. Oh, it's so good to see you guys. It's so good to see you guys. So Brian, it's been seven years since you were diagnosed with ALS. You were initially given six months to live. Can you talk about the mental and emotional journey that brought you from that day to the moment that the two of you decided to turn your personal battle with ALS into a grassroots movement called I Am ALS?
Well, at the beginning, I ignored my diagnosis. And we didn't tell anyone other than our family. And after Christmas, I said to my
I turned to Sandra. And I wanted to do something to help the fight. And I asked her if I could start an ALS nonprofit. And her response...
You're turning to me? I don't want to swear on air. Go ahead. Okay. Well, fuck no. What's my answer? I mean, really? Yes, we just had this terminal diagnosis and Brian wanted to start a whole new endeavor. So what did you make me do? Brian's asking. What I made Brian do was I said, in true political form, go on a listening and learning tour. There you go. Where did you listen and learn?
All over the country. Brian flew literally all over the country for six months with this diagnosis, which was wild because we had a newborn and a two-year-old and this diagnosis and it's
He ended up coming back and I did not request this, but he did present me with a 40-page PowerPoint. Again, to be clear, I did not request it, but it was very informative and convincing. And what is that? Oh.
Oh, yes. And it only had text. No images. Oh, my gosh. Because he's an attorney. The real lawyer, I was just about to say. Real lawyer. There were also footnotes, I think. Oh, my gosh. And after that. Oh, my gosh.
I was all in. Sandra was all in. Yeah. And so then we... Oh, we reached out to our network to help us start IMLS. You guys have achieved an enormous amount in the last several years.
Sandra, how did you decide what you guys were going to focus on and come up with a strategy that got you to this point? Yeah, well, some of it was in the PowerPoint. Of course. And part of that entailed Brian and I observing what kind of advocacy was being done on the Hill. And of course, you know, before Brian and I met, we worked in the Senate together and
I, as we all had experienced, we knew what good advocacy looked like. We knew that it was about meaningful relationships with members, with chiefs of staff, legislative directors. And what we observed happening was these really cursory meetings with, you know, a bunch of advocates one day a year, and it just wasn't a sustained systemic approach. And so when we saw that reality and we knew what was possible, we decided that one way in which we could have a real impact was
was to create this coalition of patients and caregivers who would drive forward the movement and not be treated as tokens. And they would tell their stories and they would develop meaningful relationships with the House and the Senate. And we knew that we could do it. We knew how to do it. We knew the people to do it with. And we knew it wasn't being done. Yeah.
Katie, what drew you to their story and what made you decide to become an executive producer on this project? Well, I was reading an article about profiling Brian and Sandra in Politico written by Sam Stein, who I'd crossed paths with when he was at Huffington Post.
And I was so captivated and moved by their story and so inspired, honestly. It was a pretty long piece. And I remember just reading it and not being able to put my phone down.
And I saw in the body of the piece that they were developing or kind of working on a documentary. And I thought, oh, gosh, I really hope that they have some kind of video of the journey they've been on because I thought it would be really difficult to reverse engineer a documentary at that point in Brian's disease. So...
I reached out to Sam Stein on Twitter. I DM'd him. As one does. Yes, as one does these days and hoping he checked his DMs as I don't very often. And I said, Sam, that was such a beautiful piece. Congratulations. And I would love to meet Brian and Sandra again.
And he said, great. So, you know, a few days later, we had connected. We set up a Zoom. It was during the pandemic. And I remember being in my kitchen and we just...
Brian and Sandra, they were excited to talk to me. I was so excited to talk to them. And what can I say? It was love at first sight. Love at first Zoom. And I just said, listen, I want to help in any way I can. I want to be useful to you all. So I ended up helping with the documentary, giving some notes. I think because I've done so much cancer advocacy work, John, I'm really...
pretty, I've gotten good at synthesizing and distilling complicated medical concepts. And I think I was maybe helpful in giving some feedback on that. I helped with some finishing funds. And, you know, I basically just got to know the whole group and said, you know, I would like to be your vessel, do what, you know, what you will with me. And so, you know, I think we've established
developed a deep friendship. Some might say a thruple. Yes, yes. We talk about being a thruple all the time because we think it's so funny. And I'm just so...
I feel so honored to be a part of this project and to help spread the word because it's not just about ALS. It's, well, it's first and foremost, I think, a love story. But it's also about the power of people when they join forces and are galvanized and care about an issue that you could actually...
get real change accomplished. And, you know, I think because of Brian and Sandra's political acumen, they were at a distinct advantage. But I do think it shows the power in numbers. And I think it is a real template for
other so-called rare diseases, which as the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, which couldn't, this film couldn't have been done without them. They have a whole program called Rare is One. And rare diseases are not really rare. What is the quote that Jeff always gives? There are like 10,000 of them. Yeah, 10,000 rare diseases. That affect 300 million people. Is that worldwide? Which is basically every American family is affected by some rare disease.
Yeah. So anyway, I just, I love them. And I'm so, I'm so happy that you're giving this film attention because I think it really will inspire a ton of people. I'm so excited to see it. What was it like for you guys to open up your home and your lives to this documentary? Was it hard? Was it cathartic? Was it both? For me? Yeah.
It was easy. Brian's not shy. I was a lawyer. And I had a career where I was always doing public speaking. So for me, when Chris, our director, raised the idea,
I said, hell yes. But I had to convince Sandra again.
Very persuasive. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's hard. But I think that as we started to do press around the work and the impact we were having in the early days, and then Brian has this social media presence. And I was really struck by how much people were responding to it. And I thought, wow, that's
these are mediums where we can really drive change. So it's not only in the advocacy work, but in communicating about this disease in a different way. I think
We feel authentically hopeful that there is the chance that we could be among the first generation of survivors with this disease. And so we think it's so important to impart that hope because if you don't have that as the backdrop, then there's only inaction, right? You need that hope to drive forward and motivate a coalition. And I think...
through all of these mediums, Brian Social and the press, and then now really in an incredible way on Amazon Prime with over 200 million viewers to be able to drive forward that message.
That this is a disease where there is hope and possibility and what it looks like for someone to drive forward in the face of these odds and to really accomplish remarkable things. Yeah. And you guys have two daughters, six and eight. How have they handled all of this? How are they handling it?
Well, they haven't seen the movie. But we have a...
Oh, but we have told them. Yeah, all about ALS. And how we're trying to turn it.
From fatal to chronic. And so I think they know how hard we are fighting. And they have been amazing. And they have been amazing. And they are a lot more fun. They are a lot more fun.
along with Sandra, are my reason for being here.
You know, I wanted to mention, you know, Chris Burke did an amazing job. He's not here, but he and Brian went to college together. They went to Yale, my safety school. And basically, when Brian was diagnosed, Chris was one of many people, you know, Brian was...
a huge leader at Yale. Everyone thought he would run for president one day. You know, he was that guy. And so many people reached out and Chris said, "What can I do?" And Chris did the initial film for IMALS to kick off the nonprofit. And then he said, "There's more here." So he followed Brian and Sandra around for three years.
And the film is so intimate. I think, you know, there are so many scenes where, you know, Sandra and Brian are preparing for their Capitol Hill testimony. That's one of my favorite scenes. They're in a hotel room late at night kind of going over what they're going to say.
But there are so many very intimate moments, and Chris did a beautiful job, I think, of being more than a fly on the wall, but because of his relationship with Brian and Sondra, which I'm sure grew during this period of time, he was able to capture these intensely personal moments, which I think really make the film as moving and poignant and meaningful as it is.
And I just, you know, Chris works so hard and I just wanted to give him a shout out. Yes, yes. He's amazing. So what's next for IAMALS? Like what, for people who want to help, want to contribute, and what are you guys hoping for in the months to come in terms of research, treatments, legislation, funding? Like what's next? Yeah. Wow.
What's that? This week? IMLS. They're having the first ever summit in D.C. And they're bringing together...
Yeah, groups from all sorts of different but related neurodegenerative diseases. So Brian and I have so much admiration for so many things that Katie has done, including and importantly, Stand Up to Cancer. And so how Katie led this coalition and really...
you know, lifted all boats. That is so much in the spirit of what Brian and I see as possible with Alzheimer's and ALS and Parkinson's and Huntington's. All of these diseases are really a part of this family of neurodegenerative diseases. And so at this moment, I am ALS is really spearheading along with others, this coalition of neuro diseases that
to bring attention to them, to drive forward with more collaboration and coordination. Because there are a lot of areas where these diseases overlap. And if they could kind of focus on collaboration instead of competition and really kind of figure out where the Venn diagram exists,
then hopefully that'll move science forward faster because I think that's one of the main goals. And also just to use what Brian and Sandra have done as a template or a blueprint for other people who have rare diseases or any kind of cause they believe in that there is actually –
roadmap to figuring out how you can be an effective advocate and how you can actually implement and inspire change as these two have done so beautifully not only with changes in legislation like getting Social Security disability benefits to go into to happen immediately you know used to be you had to wait six months and for someone with ALS that can be an eternity and
They got that change. They got so much more funding. I think it's been raised to a billion dollars for ALS research when previously it had been what, Sandra? Yeah, it was in the low hundreds. And yeah, so we have really...
And that's part of the legislation that President Biden signed, which is also amazing that you guys got legislation through this Congress in this or in 2021 in this political climate. It's just incredible. They've worked with the FDA to make certain drugs available for people. And so, I mean...
Honestly, it's an absolutely Sisyphean task. And they were able to not only push the boulder up the hill, but get it to roll on the other side. I mean, it's just phenomenal what they've been able to achieve. What were some of the lessons and advice
you gave Sandra and Brian as being someone who became a very public advocate for a family member's terminal illness? I'd like to think that I gave them advice, but they didn't need any advice from me, John, honestly. They were so focused, so myopically focused, and so...
you know, appropriately covering every aspect of this disease, getting people, you know, galvanizing a community. You know, patient advocacy is so important to, you know, the greasy wheel. Wait, the squeaky wheel does really get the grease. It's been a long day. Sorry, everyone. And, you know, so they were able to do that.
And members of Congress, as you know, they pay attention to, as Sandra says, the RPs, the real people, right? I was like, we're the RPs. She was in charge of RPs and then she became one. And so they focused on the community. They educated themselves about the science. I mean, they're very smart people, as you know. And then they figured out like,
Legislatively, they navigated the bureaucracy and they were relentless in their advocacy. You know, even if a couple of, only a couple of committee members showed up at a hearing, which really pissed me off, honestly. I was like, these are my tax dollars at work. Where the fuck are they?
Yeah, what are you doing? You're doing cable hits? You're on Twitter?
That's great. Brian, I follow you on Twitter where you are incredibly active. I can relate. It's X now. It's X now. Yeah, I can't do that. You're also incredibly positive and profound, even as you're like honest about how hard this is. Why is it important for you to stay so positive and hopeful now?
for so many other people? I believe that we have a chance to change the world for people living with all sorts of neurodegenerative diseases.
And I also have to stay positive because so much in my world is changing. Oh, yeah, so much in my world is changing. And so I don't want to waste time.
And so I root myself in hope. And we have to. We have to.
What's that word? B-A-N. Banners. Oh, two banners behind your desk. Yeah. One of them says, joy is an act of resistance. And the other one says...
just good trouble. Right. Yeah. I love that. You know, who got those for us? Brent Colburn. Oh, another one of our Obama friends. Another Obama alum. Yeah. I think one thing too, just watching, you know, Brian and Sandra and, and,
The way they communicate, the way they love each other, the way they support each other. I think this film is very much a love story. And I think a lot of people wonder, what would I do if someone I loved was dealing with a really tough, debilitating illness like this? And I think the two of them are...
are just a beautiful example of unconditional love and support. And for that reason alone, I think just watching them, you can model the kind of love and relationship that you want to have in your life by watching them. Yeah. I mean, thank you guys for being here. Thank you for doing this. Like, congrats on all that you've achieved.
And I'm just so amazed and in awe of both of you as I follow you guys from afar. And now I feel so lucky that I get to finally see you in person because I haven't in so many years. The documentary is for Love and Life, No Ordinary Campaign. It comes out May 28th on Amazon Prime. So everyone check it out and good luck, guys. Keep up the fight. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, John. Thanks, Katie.
Adisu, thanks for joining us. Thank you. Good to be here again. Thanks to Brian Wallach, Sandra Abavai, and Katie Couric. John and I will be back with a new podcast on Friday morning. If you want to get ad-free episodes, exclusive content, and more, consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription community at crooked.com slash friends. And if you're already doom-scrolling, don't forget to follow us at Pod Save America on Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content, and more. Plus, if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review. Pod Save America.
Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our show is produced by Olivia Martinez and David Toledo. Our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Farrah Safari. Kira Wakeem is our senior producer. Reid Cherlin is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Writing support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant.
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