Kamala’s Closing Argument (feat. AOC)
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This election could redefine American foreign policy in ways that we will be feeling for decades to come. I'm Ben Rhodes, co-host of Pod Save the World. And while the world is busy watching the lead up to the 2024 election, we're watching the world in my new special Pod Save the World election series. Over five episodes, we'll be breaking down the critical differences between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump on some of the biggest issues facing the world right now.

from the wars in Ukraine and Gaza and across the Middle East, to the rise of authoritarianism and far-right parties and China's growing power, to the fight against climate change. Who we will elect next will shape the future, not just for America, but for the entire world. New episodes drop every Saturday between now and Election Day in the Pod Save the World feed, so be sure to subscribe to Pod Save the World and listen on your favorite podcast platform or on YouTube.

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Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Lovett. I'm Tim Miller. Is that what we're doing? You know who you are, Tim. Is that how we're doing it? Yeah. Oh! Okay, alright. Here we go. Let's start it over. Here we go. Oh, you can use that. Whatever. Until you cleared your throat like an ancient...

On today's show, Kamala Harris makes her final argument to undecided voters in a big speech on the ellipse. Donald Trump tries to clean up the mess from that terrible joke about Puerto Rico and President Biden makes Trump's job a little bit easier.

with quite a gaffe. And here in the homestretch, Trump and his surrogates are helpfully reminding voters of the stakes being quite open about their plans to dismantle Obamacare, put RFK Jr. in charge of vaccines and prescription drugs, and perhaps even crash the economy if they win. Then I talked to Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez about how to persuade disaffected progressives. Someone, Tim, is...

Not someone who's going to help us reach at all. You're just not for them. I've got a pitch for Disaffected Progressives. Yeah, let's hear it. Get your fucking ass into the game. That's why we don't send you. What are you doing right now, Disaffected Progressives? Do you realize how crazy this person is on the other side? Do you know what they're going to do to you? Do you want the military to...

showing up at your Gaza protest. Do you? All right, because it's not going to be John Kelly. John Kelly was no cup of tea either, by the way. John Kelly put green card holders in airport cells the first time around. We're going to have somebody worse than him showing up to your protest in 2025 with guns and jackboots. Is that what you want? Fucking vote for Kamala Harris.

So I feel like, you know, you've heard of good cop, bad cop. I would call that bad cop ACAP. You know what I mean? That's what we're getting with you. Look, I hear you. I hear you. I have the same energy, but we're trying to coax you.

Look, I think that's – let's get that out there. But we also have to do some coaxing. Yeah, that's fine. You guys are softer. You can coax. You can use soft coaxing. It might just be helpful to hear from somebody that's like, that Tim Miller, he used to be a Republican. I find a lot of his views repulsive and extreme. And he's telling me that these people that are coming in, their views are so repulsive and extreme to him that it is freaking him out and that he's mentorating his sheets and

And so maybe that should be a wake-up call to me that these people over there are as bad as I could possibly imagine because he knows them personally and he's testifying that they're bad. And I think he's kind of bad. Is that not – you don't think that's compelling at all to young progressives? I do. I don't think they've heard of you. That's a good point. Okay. Well, we could – you could vouch for them that I'm kind of bad. Anyway, I don't know. Whatever it takes to vouch for – to vouch, I'm doing my best. I'll go on TikTok.com.

I'll like whatever. What do we do? I'll get on Twitch. What are we doing? I went to a Magdalena Bay show. I went to the dare. I saw the dare. There were Gen Z kids there. I think they looked like they're voting for Kamala Harris. I didn't quiz them though. Okay. Okay. Joining me to discuss all this, you already know. Good start to the podcast. Yeah, great start to the pod. Our favorite Rhino, host of the Bulwark podcast, co-host on Speech Center.

It's Tim Miller. It's good to see you, Tim. It's good to see you. I've got a lot of energy today to get out. Look, I feel like this is our final chance talking on Pod Save America before the election. I think all of our nerves are frayed. We are hopeful but broken here in the final days, and that's just the energy we're going to be bringing to it.

On Tuesday evening, just outside the White House, Kamala Harris delivered her closing argument speech. The campaign said there were 75,000 people in attendance, though it's impossible to really know. At least one person was a protester who annoyed everybody during the first few minutes of the speech with a siren. But then they wrestled Joe Biden to the ground and everything went on without a hitch. This was an argument to voters who are still making up their minds. Let's take a listen.

than 90 days either donald trump or i will be in the oval office okay day one if elected on day one if elected donald trump would walk into that office with an enemies list when elected i will walk in with a to-do list i have been honored to serve as joe biden's vice president

But I will bring my own experiences and ideas to the Oval Office. My presidency will be different because the challenges we face are different. Now our biggest challenge is to lower costs, costs that were rising even before the pandemic and that are still too high. I pledge to seek common ground

and common sense solutions to make your life better. Unlike Donald Trump, I don't believe people who disagree with me are the enemy. He wants to put them in jail. I'll give them a seat at the table. So America, let us reach for that future. Let us fight for this beautiful country we love. And in seven days,

We have the power. Each of you has the power to turn the page and start writing the next chapter in the most extraordinary story ever told. I thank you all. God bless you. And may God bless the United States of America. Thank you. Look at Tim's heart saying. Look at that.

Look, look at that. Isn't America great? Isn't America wonderful? The mystic chords stirring between us. Oh, man. Could use a little John Winthrop, but other than that, really good. What were your general thoughts, general reactions? Thank God that Kamala Harris is the Democratic nominee for President of the United States is my main thought. I couldn't be more overjoyed to support her, and I think that it's the clearest choice I've ever made.

in any vote for any office on any level. I thought she was really great. I thought the visuals were great. I thought the speech was very stirring in the beginning and at the end. I think there was a big section in the middle. It was kind of a focus group potpourri that I assume that they're cutting into 15 and 30 second ads to play to the people in the swing states. And so that's fine. It's like a piece of art. It wasn't great. I understand why they're doing that.

And I thought it was smart to do it. There were some people that were, you know, some democratic strategist types are like, I don't know, we shouldn't talk about fascism. And I don't know if this is right. We should talk about, you know, take home pay. And it's like, she showed that that's, that's a false choice. It was, I think it was very good and important to stand there on the ellipse and provide the contrast with Donald Trump's worst day. And to talk about the stakes while also talking about economic, uh,

And if anything, I thought that her olive branch to the right, to Nikki Haley voters, to even MAGA voters was even a little longer than I would have given. She was reaching right out to my people and even a little further. I don't know that any MAGA people need a seat at the table, actually. We could talk.

We can put them on the floor. We can give them a seat on the floor for me, but good for her for doing that. And I think that all in all, it was smart tactically, and I think the message was good.

Yeah, we talked about this a bit on Posse America that came out Tuesday. And basically, what does it mean to go to the ellipse? And does that put the balance too far on the side of Trump is a fascist, Trump is a menace versus the economic argument? But I do think this speech...

Could have been one that was more focused on the insurrection and and trump's threat to democracy but that was really more I think of a I don't know that that that got butts in seats Uh, but ultimately it was much more of a broader, uh stump. Yeah, I think that's right I did I don't I didn't get to listen to your positive America on tuesday because I was spending the afternoon with steve Bannon at his post prison press conference in new york city And so I prioritized my my facetime with him over over that. Uh, but i'm sure you had the right takes on tuesday I

I will come back to that. I will come back to that. You know, as you say that too, being glad that Kamala Harris is the nominee, you know, your colleague at the Bulwark, JVL, wrote a piece kind of summing up where we're at, which I wanted to echo and get your thoughts on because the point he makes, which is a point I think we've made, is it is worth saying as we head into this election, it is close. We could wake up and have lost the election. But

It won't be because Kamala Harris fucked up. It won't be because she didn't do what we asked her to do. She is running an extraordinary campaign.

If the test for us in this election was that Kamala Harris had to run an absolutely perfect campaign without exception and Donald Trump is free to run a blundering, rambling, baffling, a strategic operation.

and still pull it out. And that blame then gets laid at the feet of Democrats. I think that tells us something deeper and darker about this election. And I do think it's worth saying that because this speech, I felt the same as you did watching this speech. This was an excellent speech. She is an excellent candidate. And we've spent so many months because of the stakes are so high kind of

Worrying over every decision and every move lamenting when there were problems and all the rest but here we are at the end And I do really think it is no longer Kamala Harris's problem. It's our problem a lot there number one JBL's newsletter the Bullock news and the Bullocks triad newsletter is amazing He's always great. And so I highly recommend it and he was right on this one. I think that probably

It says something deeper and darker about America that we even have to bite our fingernails about next Tuesday. So I don't know if that's a topic for this podcast or for, you know, I don't know, you and me to get in our feelings over Christmas break. But so, yeah, I mean, I think that this is correct. She's run tactically. Her performance in every big set piece moment has been off the charts. I think the strategic...

choices of the campaign have been really good you could tactically nitpick you know i think in retrospect i probably would have called his bluff on the fox debate i would rather debated donald trump on fox and debated brett bayer there would have been more eyes and she obviously would have dominated him since she dominated him the first time and since he is a sundowning 78 year old freak so that's like probably the only tactical mistake and it's only technical mistake for me just in that like there

There was this long period after that big moment in the debate that allowed all of the gnashing of teeth and the wailing and the Donald Trump sideshow to kind of distract for something that was, I think, pretty clear in the hour after that debate, which was how...

how much stronger of a candidate she is, and how much stronger of a potential president she is. That's my only nitpick. And I'd listen to the other side of that argument. I don't think it's that clear cut. I think she's done a great job. And unfortunately, some of this is out of her hands. Some of this isn't about the darkness of America. Some of this is just about that inflation is annoying and incumbents have done horribly all around the world. And some of this is about the darkness of America that we're even here. So that's my summary.

So, yeah, and I think those things are hard to find where one ends and the other begins, because, yes, there are challenges to incumbents all around the world, but even on Trump's core level.

core issue, which would be one of two core issues would be inflation and immigration on inflation. His case is fundamentally fraudulent and he is promising higher costs. She gave on that score her tightest response to lingering questions about how she is different from Joe Biden. What did you think of her answer on that score? I thought it was good. I thought it was better

I guess I could always use more distance from him. And I don't put this in the bucket of something that has been a problem with the campaign. I don't know how much time we want to devote to this, but I think part of that has been there's been pressure from the Biden White House to not distance more and that Biden's

There have been sensitivities around the president there, which I think is very silly. But so I guess if you're going to give a second thing in addition to that Vox debate that you could look at and say, we could have gotten a little more distance from Biden. That's probably something that I would look at as another thing the campaign could have done a little bit better. But I think a lot of it was out of their hands. And I thought what she said last night was good. I mean,

um i think that some that she fundamentally in her person is different from biden and i just think that leaning into that as much as possible and like you can throw some fig leaf issues out there like i'm gonna build three million more homes and we're gonna do this specific thing on home health home health for seniors home care for seniors but you know as much leaning into her um

Her background and her story and her perspective being hurt being so different in the generational change I think that that is that's that's a better way to go. Yeah, even if you put aside sort of the personal politics like I've always been of two minds on this because in the one hand I find this answer Oh, you know just the kind of I am a different person and therefore I am different than Joe Biden to be it is like a rhetorical and like kind of surface

response, right? Like I'll be different because I bring my different experiences to bear. Now that's of course true. Then on the other hand, I think, well, hold on a second. Am I too much of a kind of insane political person to realize that? Wait a second, wait a second. What do people really want? They're not saying they want someone who comes to the table with a different set of goals. They just want better outcomes, right? When people say they want someone different than Joe Biden, they're not saying they have a fundamental problem with what Joe Biden promised to do. They don't have a problem with the democratic

agenda. They have a problem with outcomes. And so when you say, here are the new things I will do that will make me different than Joe Biden, just because as people that are super politically invested and engaged, we understand that Joe Biden represents the center left consensus of the Democratic Party. Kamala Harris will represent that consensus and will in many ways be a continuation. Make it less true that she is representing the differences people are hoping to see. I think that's right. And in some ways, it's like a trick question.

Because it's like, what people really want to hear is, I would have waved a magic wand and inflation wouldn't have been as bad as it was. You know what I mean? What people really want is not like, how are you going to be different in the next four years? But it's like, what would you have done differently? And that's a question that is kind of unanswerable for her, really. Unless you want to get into like, well,

Well, I was advising in the room that this and that, right? And that's like a bag of worms that probably is unhelpful. So I think that the forward-looking and the identity-looking elements of the answer is the best you can do in a sticky situation.

Meanwhile, Trump spent Tuesday trying to limit the damage from what a country from comedian Tony Hinchcliffe's comment about Puerto Rico being a floating island of garbage. Trump did a pair of events in Pennsylvania. He spun variations of the claim that no one has done more for Puerto Rico than he has. Then he went on Hannity, tried to diss himself from Hinchcliffe and defend the photo op when he threw paper towels. Let's let's roll a clip. I was told and made aware that you had no idea about this comedian.

who made comments. I still have no idea who he is. Somebody said there was a comedian that joked about Puerto Rico or something, and I have no idea who it was. Never saw him, never heard of him, and don't want to hear of him. But I have no idea. They put a comedian in, which everybody does. You throw comedians in. You don't...

Never heard of Tony Hinchcliffe? Similar way he's never heard of a lot of people who have said terrible things in or around him.

Yeah, Alyssa Farah was one. The other day I was watching his Rogan interview. He's like, who is that person who's my communications director? What was her name? I've never heard of her. You know, he's abhorrent and repellent in every possible way. I know that this game is so tired at this point, but like,

Imagine if Kamala Harris was giving that answer on CNN. I don't know. People have comedians all the time. And who knows? We don't vet people. We just kind of let people talk at our events. And I don't really care one way or the other. The whole thing is pretty silly. And the reason why it's the most silly, though, is that the joke that...

that Tony, what's his comedian name? F. Tony. Screw Tony. Kill Tony. Yeah, the Kill Tony told, the joke, is literally the same thing that Donald Trump has said seriously several times on the stump recently about how America is a garbage can. It's just inverting the same point. Like Donald Trump has said multiple times, America is a garbage can and we are a garbage can for the world and people are sending their immigrants and they're garbage.

and Tony Hinchcliffe just said that Puerto Rico is a floating island of garbage. It's the same thing. The only reason people have any outrage about it, any different than what Donald Trump had said, is because it specifically targeted a group of people that's very important in Pennsylvania. But Donald Trump says racist shit about how immigrants, Puerto Ricans, Haitians, etc., are garbage all the time, and so there is no difference between him and the comedian. So that whole kind of discussion is moot.

So Democrats were making hay of this. This comment happened to coincide with Kamala Harris laying out her plan for Puerto Rico. We got another post from Bad Bunny. J-Lo announced an event with Kamala Harris in Nevada. And then last night, President Biden joined a press call about it hosted by Voto Latino, in which he said this. And just the other day, a speaker at his rally called Puerto Rico a floating island of garbage. Well, let me tell you something.

I don't know the Puerto Rican that I know or Puerto Rico where I'm in my home state of Delaware. They're good, decent, honorable people. The only garbage I see floating out there is his supporters. His demonization of seen as unconscionable. - So Joe Biden has entered the chat and he's from the government and he's here to help. - Ronnie.

- That's a Ronald Reagan reference for Tim. So, all right. So this comes right after Kamala's great speech, a speech in which she pre-butted Joe Biden. If I talked about how much she would reach out to Republicans, she spoke on the tarmac this morning at Andrews and said, "I strongly disagree with any criticism of people based on who they vote for. You heard my speech last night. I believe that the work I do is about representing all people whether they support me or not." She'll be a president for all Americans.

A lot of Republicans were very relieved to have a chance to pretend to be offended like the old days. Imagine a president insulting people to live in a world like that. It's beyond the pale.

Obviously, Trump has called his opponents human scum, the enemy within. Just to pick two, J.D. Vance has insulted vast swaths of American humanity. Joe Biden is not on the ballot as much as that would be the Republican preference. Kamala and Josh Shapiro, among others, immediately rejected the comment. Time and again, Republicans have refused to criticize Trump when he has said far worse and meant it. But all that being said, come on, Joe, what are we doing here?

What are we doing here? Yeah, I have two thoughts. I guess we'll take Joe first since that's where you're going and then I'll make fun of the Republicans. I don't think that his intention was actually to call Donald Trump supporters garbage, but who could tell? Really? The whole quote is indecipherable. What he talked about before that was not decipherable.

And it's just, it's not helpful to be out there. And it gets me a little angry because it's like, I don't know why people in the Democratic Party and around the Biden administration, even on the Harris campaign, why we feel like we have to baby the President of the United States.

And like walk on eggshells and make sure he feels included. He's the president of the United States. Like the president Biden should do president things. He should have private meetings, should meet with the generals. He should meet with the pardon committee. Think about who he's going to pardon and what other obligations he has for the last two months. Like that is his job.

for right now. It is not helpful for him to be out at all with Kamala Harris. He shouldn't take that personally. We shouldn't have to care about what his feelings are about it. He shouldn't make people feel bad that he's not being, whatever. You see these leaks in the New York Times and Politico about this issue, and I find it very frustrating. Everyone should just be focused singularly on the goal of defeating Donald Trump

having Kamala Harris win this election. And like, I just, it's hard to think about anything public that Joe Biden could do that would be beneficial to that goal. It's certainly not being on some zoom or,

Like to fill the calendar. I can't possibly think about why that would have been useful. So please, I'm begging everybody. It's not personal. Nobody take it personally. If I made a big gaffe on this podcast and tomorrow Fox News is airing it and it would be better for me to go hide for the last five days, I will go hide. Whatever it takes, Kamala Harris needs to win.

Secondly, obviously it's fake outrage and it's really fucking annoying. And J.D. Vance is like out there two days ago saying we shouldn't be so offended about things. And then yesterday he's like, I'm so offended on behalf of the millions of Americans that were like, it's a simple rule of thumb here. If you are overjoyed that somebody said something, you cannot also be offended simultaneously. You cannot be overjoyed about the statement and offended about the statement. So if people get offended about things, feel free to be offended.

But the mega world, everybody does this a little bit on social media. So even positive American listeners, maybe everybody can reflect on whether they've committed this crime. But Republicans have like an entire media ecosystem. Like the Daily Wire and Megyn Kelly exist, I think, to be fake offended about things that they're actually happy about. And so that is very enraging. And the media should not...

should not participate in their little game of pretend. And so it was a mistake by Joe Biden, but we should also acknowledge that nobody's actually offended here. The people who are pretending to be offended are actually delighted. And we should just move on, focusing on Kamala Harris versus Donald Trump, which is a very clear contrast on the issue of who calls who names more.

Yeah, I agree. And also, by the way, Joe Biden clarified what he meant. It's clear that regardless of the kind of word salad that people are plucking this out of, he has often gone out of his way to make clear that this is not the kind of thing he says or intends to say, unlike Donald Trump, who says it and means it on a daily basis and when questioned on it all

always doubles down. Yes, I do think there is a lot of performative outrage. I think the good side of that, though, is you have a lot of people, your Ben Shapiro and others saying, look at what Joe Biden said. This is offensive. We are offended by this because it's valuable for them. They think it's useful, but it's because they are profiting

putting themselves in the minds of other people who they think might actually sincerely be offended. The problem is it's turtles all the way down. So they say, I find this offensive. A bunch of MAGA people whose hearts have been completely hardened by eight years of Donald Trump, a decade of Donald Trump, are also sharing it and pointing out saying, can you believe Joe Biden said this? I too will pretend to be offended. But you never get to the people that are actually offended because they just

simply don't exist. They don't exist anymore. And so they're putting on this show, but I ultimately think it doesn't really matter. And if anything...

It also is keeping the Puerto Rico story going for another 24 hours. And it gives Kamala an opportunity to remind people of how she's distanced herself from Donald Trump and Joe Biden. Galaxy brain. Another great day for Kamala Harris. Thank you, Joe Biden. Let's get this fucking guy out there. Let's get him out there. Why are we constraining Joe Biden to a Zoom box?

with Vote Latino with a terrible camera angle. Let's get him out there. Let's get him out there. The more shit Joe Biden says out there, the more Kamala Harris can say, I don't resemble that remark at all. Yeah, I don't know if I agree with that. It's an interesting theory. It's a good idea. It's a good idea. But I don't know. I think maybe ice cream in Delaware and like meetings. A lot of meetings. Fill that calendar. Meet up. Meet people. They're all...

There are a lot of people. We have Americans doing great work in Antarctica that would, I think, really appreciate a visit from the president here in the last couple of days. There's the DMZ where a visit from the president without press might be something that would hearten a lot of people doing good work. You could just do a full Peace Corps tour, you know?

We've got people working to clear brush in the rural parts of California and the Pacific Northwest to prevent forest fires. Those are people that could use a big hello from the president of the United States. There's a lot of good that the president could do over the next seven days. And so I think that's important. I think so too. And we appreciate you. We appreciate you. It's been a good four years, but we're not going back. Coconut time.

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So meanwhile, on the other side, MAGA World has, I think, persuaded themselves of bullshit interpretations of early vote. They're giddy and they can't help but share some of their least popular plans. Elon has been elaborating on the terrible economy he has in store for us when he is put in charge of government budgets. Mike Johnson says Republicans in the House are

will dismantle the ACA. And Trump reminds everyone about his plans to empower RFK Jr. Let's listen. I'm going to let him go wild on health. I'm going to let him go wild on the food. I'm going to let him go wild on medicines. How much do you think we can rip out of this wasted $6.5 trillion Harris-Biden budget? Well, I think we can do at least $2 trillion. Yeah! Yeah!

Yes. Two trillion. That necessarily involves some temporary hardship, but it will ensure long-term prosperity. And so healthcare is one of the sectors, but we need this across the board. And Trump's going to go big. I mean, he's only going to have one more term, right? Cameron for reelection. And so he's going to be thinking about legacy.

and we're going to fix those things. No Obamacare? No Obamacare. The ACA is so deeply ingrained. We need massive reform to make this work, and we've got a lot of ideas on how to do that.

Concepts of ideas. So Elon, quite the surrogate, saying they're going to cut $2 trillion. It will cause temporary hardship. He responded to somebody on social media who was pointing out all the ways in which this would be devastating for the economy. And Elon agreed that there would be something like a crash because that's what you have to do to get to the promised land of

a low tax, no regulation free market in which he can launch rockets everywhere. But do you think Elon saying this kind of thing

Is something that could break through? Trump, temporary hardships. I think you just put that right there on a hat, you know? I don't, well, I hate that question. Will it break through? I don't know. How the fuck do I know if it'll break through? I'll tell you this. Here's what I do know. It will cause temporary hardships. And I think that it could be a continued message that people should talk about with Trump.

you know, you're, you are just, there, there are essentially three key groups of people left to talk about. You and AOC are going to have a very happy nudging chat, encouraging chat with the progressives aren't sure what to do. There are the younger voters mostly, but people that are just kind of like, meh, should I vote or not? That are traditionally Democrats, you got to figure out how to motivate them. Hopefully, you know, Bad Bunny is helping with that, other things.

And then you have my people, you know, the Nikki Haley people. And I do think like continuing to speak to them about how they are serious about this. Like you think that their plans are 2017 when Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan wrote the tax cut bill that you liked. That's not their plan right now. You know, the last seven speakers were like, it was like a Eastern European oligarchy. It was like three family members, three,

two oligarchs and like two members of the former party that he bought off to switch to the other side. Like there was no normal Republicans in that Madison Square Garden thing. It was RFK and all of them. So communicating to them, that is what they're really going to do. Those are the real people on the inner circle. The tariffs are coming. That is going to fuck with your 401k. You're not getting the tax cut that you want. What you're getting is tariffs good and hard and mass deportations, which is going to, you know, potentially impact

I don't know, building projects and other things that you want to do as far as workers are concerned. So I think that that message can still work on the margins. And I do think Elon's helping with that. Yeah, Trump said something to Rogan.

in deep within that three-hour conversation, which was something like when I talk to people in business, I said, what's more important, deregulation or cutting the taxes? They all said deregulation. He obviously meant that in defense of his overall agenda. But actually, I think that is reflective of why this argument would be helpful, which is, hey,

15% tax rate in a chaotic, crashing economy dealing with the after effects of tariffs and mass deportations and huge budget cuts that affect everything from Social Security to the basic functioning of government.

you know, a lower tax rate in that economy is not better than a stable growing economy with a 21%, by the way, still ridiculously low corporate tax rate. What about ACA too? I do think like, it's interesting, like Mike Johnson, you know,

he, the, the guy says, no Obamacare. And Johnson goes, no Obamacare. And it really, and it was very Veep adjacent, you know, it's like, wait, are you saying Obamacare? No Obamacare question mark. But I do think however you interpret that piece of it, he is saying Obamacare is entrenched, but we have a plan to get, to get under it. Uh,

And dismantle it regular in via regulation, via legislation, even though even if they're not going to walk people through it.

It's like that Lionel Hutz business card. No comma, money down, exclamation point. No money down. We have a lot of, a big part of this podcast today is interpreting apostrophes and commas and the words of Joe Biden and Mike Johnson. I guess I turn it back on you. I don't know. Democratic nerds and polling types and analysts are like convinced that

that Obamacare still is a very salient and effective issue. And I sort of am neutral on that because I think that abortion obviously is. I just discussed what I think works with Nikki Haley voters. My people are not, you know, the group that I spend the most time listening to and focus groups and whatnot, this is not what's

going to be the motivating issue for them. But obviously, you know, it's gained popularity and the smarties on the Democratic side think it works. So I'm open to that. Yeah. I do think there's a little bit of the same kind of, you know, Trump's a fascist, but wait, he was already president. That didn't happen. They're going to repeal Obamacare. They're already in charge and that didn't happen. So I think you're going to have to now at this point, you can't just say they want to repeal Obamacare. Even if people don't want that, I think it doesn't really, it doesn't, it doesn't sort of

light the right fires. But I do think if you say they want to dismantle consumer protections around healthcare, they want to dismantle the discounts you get on prescriptions. They want to dismantle the way in which you have preventive care, in which you have limits on co-pays, all that. Those kinds of, I think, specifics, I think, can matter. I agree with that. Can I just have one second, like a 20-second rant on that the fascism didn't happen?

Because it does drive me crazy. Sure. I mean, the Capitol was stormed. I just like the whole thing really. I did a one hour debate with Dan Crenshaw, which shows that things are really busy in the House of Representatives. But this was his argument the whole time. He keeps going back to like, well, in 2017, fascism didn't happen. And it's like.

If you showed anybody the front page of the newspaper on January 7th and, you know, you back to the future, back to 2014, like two – like my buddy Steve Bannon, 2% of the country would be like, cool. Yeah, I'm in on that. Like everybody else would have been like, oh, my God, fuck. No, we never – we'll never do that. So like the goalposts get moved on this stuff a lot. And it's true on the fascism and on the Obamacare stuff. And I guess –

I guess what we're saying is like, it's, we're just, we're throwing up our hands. It's just frustrating. It's like, this hasn't broken through and we just, we have to,

We have to use our favorite phrase of meeting the people where they are. Well, you were mad at me for even referring to whether or not something is breaking through or not. I mean, we have to make it break through. I wasn't mad at you. I would never be mad at you. I was just saying I don't know how to answer that question. We have to make it break through is the answer. But the... Yes. I mean, the other piece of it too is it's... Part of why I think it's a hard... Like, I don't think you say like, is Donald Trump fascist? Like, I...

It's a I feel like the only way to win that game is not to play you just got to get people to be convinced We know what fascism is I don't need to have a whole fucking academic debate in politics in public about the definition of fascism Which I of course believe Donald Trump means I think part of what we need to do is just lay out what those things are and make the case on each one of them like because if you go down the list Sowing disinformation and mistrust in the media

a lionization of masculinity at the expense of women in defense of traditional patriarchies, declaring an enemy the source of all of our problems, intimidating people. By the way, one of the reasons, not just January 6th, right now, and it's not just the...

advanced compliance of Jeff Bezos and avoiding a an endorsement. We have heard from Republican after Republican that they are afraid to speak out about Donald Trump because of threats to their family, because of the fear of political violence. The fascist threat of violence is already warping our politics. That warping is happening. It is in front of us. There are Republicans right now who would be speaking out, but they are afraid of retribution. There are business leaders who would be speaking out right now, but they are afraid of retribution. That is

That is a response to the ways in which Donald Trump is an authoritarian fascist. You don't stop being a fascist because you don't get everything you want in your first term because you're surrounded by people who aren't fascists. They're right-wing Republicans. They're craven, but they're not going along with fascism. You don't get to do full fascism until you're surrounded by fascists. That doesn't mean you weren't a fascist because you failed. I'm snapping. Speaking of, before we let you go, Tim, because you're a recording machine.

It's not just the stakes around policy. We are reminded in these closing days of the kind of people that will surround Donald Trump if he wins. Steve Bannon just got out of jail. He's back to podcasting and claiming Democrats are rigging the election. Mike Flynn is claiming he's going to unleash hell on Trump's enemies. Also saw this morning you were reacting to this clip from Trump confidant Johnny McEntee. Let's play that clip.

So I guess they misunderstood. When we said we wanted male only voting, we meant male M-A-L-E. A good one. He's such a douche nozzle. So, look, I'm sure already there's like, oh, you liberals, you can't take a joke. But can you just remind everybody who McEntee is? Yeah, look, this is why it's important because, yes, they're fools. Yes, we should laugh at them.

But they're the fools that will be in charge, and they have very radical views. Johnny McEntee was – they called him the deputy president because he was so close to Trump. He started that date right stuff. So if any of you are on TikTok, you've probably seen his stupid TikToks, which that was one of them. But more importantly, he was in charge of like the –

the staffing in the administrative state as they got later on in the White House. Donald Trump realized one of his problems was he had too many of these normal, boring Alex P. Keaton Republicans around him, too many people with briefcases and khakis. He needed more MAGA in there.

So he put Johnny in charge of getting more loyalists in. So that was his job. And then as part of Project 2025, his job has been helping the Heritage Foundation organize the list of people that would go in who would be loyalists. So you have that guy with the all-male voting. He's going to be in charge of the hiring. That should alarm you.

You've Bannon coming out of prison, and it's almost not even worth discussing. Obviously, they're going to lie about the election again. I went back and forth with him kind of tongue-in-cheek about whether he's reformed at all. The answer is no. There's no re-looking at 2020. They have no...

remorse over the police that were injured. None of that. They're already planning it again. On his first podcast back, he said that, you know, the fight goes through Inauguration Day. And he specifically says in that, yes, that includes on January 6th.

That might not be a direct quote with the fight, but like the whatever our efforts go on to January 20th. And so and that but he does mention January 6th. And so that's alarming. But like the other thing that is just that ties back to my point about who was around Trump at Madison Square Garden, his family, these sycophants, extremists.

not traditional politician types. At the Bannon press conference around him was Jeff Clark, who they tried to put in at the head of DOJ during the coup. It was that Mike Davis guy that tweets about how Mattie Hassan should be in the women's gulag.

And it was a bunch of other weirdos. Dude, it felt like we were in a movie about a fictional Eastern European country. And somebody comes out of jail and he's like, I've got my Goombas with me and I've got my bag men and I've got a guy with one eye. It was the weirdest group of people.

But these are the people that will be around. The people that were cheering for Steve Bannon on his post-prison press conference, the family, the oligarchs, the Johnny McEntees, that is who will staff the next administration. And you don't have to have any love for H.R. McMaster or Reince Priebus or anything to recognize that it's a category difference of people.

And they don't deserve to be in the White House, but it also is extremely alarming about what kinds of stuff that Trump wanted to do that he might be able to do with people like this around him. Yeah, Jeffrey Clark, you might remember, last time you saw him, he was standing outside his house in a shirt.

and boxers as the FBI was searching his home because of his involvement in the effort to overturn the election from inside. The horrible mental image. If you haven't seen it, I wouldn't Google it. Well, it's seared into my mind. Tim, we were going to do

some superlatives, but we've just had too much to talk about. We were? What superlative? Can we do one superlative? Let's do one. Let's do one. Who is most likely to take the Maga Reigns if Donald Trump loses?

I think JD. I don't think it was him at the beginning, but I think he's really kind of found his sea legs on these bro podcasts. And I think that Tucker and Elon kind of like being the power behind the throne and don't want to actually run. Tucker, I think, is the person that has the most natural presentation skill. But JD has proven himself pliant and he's proven himself appealing enough.

likeable enough and appealing enough to do it, which I think they were very unsure about in the first month or two of the campaign. So I think sadly we are stuck with the worst elder millennial for quite a while now, no matter what happens. But he will be sad next week. He'll be sad next week when we're living in that coconut grove. And I appreciate everybody that is going to help make that happen. Well, I appreciate you, Tim. Look at this. Look at this Tim Miller, a man of righteous principle.

And outrage. I just love this country, John Lovett. I just love this country. If that's a flaw, then whatever. He's gay for America. I'm flawed.

I love content. All right. I appreciate you. Okay. After the break, you're going to hear my conversation with AOC, which I want to note we recorded, uh, before the MSG rally, we did talk about Puerto Rico. And I actually think the conversation we had about the politics in Puerto Rico explains a bit of why this comment at the MSG rally resonated, uh,

We also talked about campaigning in Pennsylvania and how to make the case for Kamala Harris, both to less engaged voters and to hyper engaged progressives who might be considering sitting this one out. But before we get to that, here's how Ponce of America is gearing up for the insane week ahead. We're going to be releasing new episodes every weekday until the race is called, diving deep into the results.

and getting through whatever may come with you. Also, what a day. We'll have updates each morning with Jane Koston breaking down all the news in just 20 minutes. And if legal challenges start flying, Crooked's go-to legal experts from strict scrutiny will stop by on shows across the network to unpack the shenanigans and what they mean. Make sure to subscribe and follow Crooked Media and Pod Save America on Instagram to get all the headlines right in your feed. And, you know, as always...

We're in your podcast feeds. We're on YouTube. We're everywhere. You know, the sun never sets. It may set on America, but we'll be here, I suppose. And...

Listen, we are in the last few days before this election. We have just been to canvases around some of these house races that are going to be really close. We're about to head to Arizona and Nevada, where those races are really close. Wherever you are, there is a race where you could have an impact in the homestretch. There are campaigns that still, believe it or not, could use some money in the homestretch. They could certainly use your texts and your calls and your physical plant to knock on some doors.

Please, please, please do whatever you can in these final days. You got Mike Johnson and Donald Trump talking about a secret. If we win the House, we won't have to worry about it. You got Elon talking about cutting two trillion dollars and the economic devastation of deporting 10 million people. If we knock on enough doors, we don't have to worry about it. I would like to not worry about it.

So everybody in the last couple of days, do whatever you can. VoteSaveAmerica.com. You can also go there to fill out your ballot and send Vote Save America to other people in your life so they can fill out their ballot too with our Build Your Own Ballot tool. Everything's on the line. Climate's on the line. Abortion's on the line. Our sanity's on the line. Let's go. VoteSaveAmerica.com. And when we come back, AOC.

Absolutely.

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In a race that may be decided by a few votes per precinct in a handful of states, success will come down to persuading people not just to vote for Harris over Trump, but whether to vote at all. Here to talk about that mission, it's Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Welcome back to the pod. Thank you. Thanks for having me. You've been campaigning and canvassing in Pennsylvania. How are the vibes?

They're good. They're good. You know, I think that the ground game that Democrats have out there is really encouraging. We had a thousand people out canvassing in Allentown, Pennsylvania. But we have a lot of work to do. We need to motivate a lot of people to go to the polls. And it's going to be really, really tight. So let's let's talk about this. You made the case at this labor rally for Harris-Walls. And there are two worlds before us right now. One is

is a road where we do go back and worse. We're not going to do that. But that is a road where folks take our liberties for granted. That's what that road looks like. We can't do that because the only people that we punish are the most vulnerable in this country by sitting this election out. The most vulnerable. And I don't know about you,

But I'm not going to make poor families pay for the failures of our government today. And I really feel in that speech how much you have thought about the argument to those who might sit this election out. You've also been canvassing in parts of PA that have traditionally had lower turnout. What's the case you're making? Who are you trying to reach? And what's the response been?

You know, I think the case is different depending on who we're trying to reach. I've been to places like Reading, Pennsylvania, which is a very Latino and very Puerto Rican city that has historically had very low voter turnout because they haven't seen or experienced a lot of politicians care about them.

And I think that I relate a lot to that. I represent a community that experienced that for a really long time. And so to me, when it comes to that argument, it's doing the work of showing up and actually seeing communities and saying, actually, it's not up to you to have to show up first to have a politician care about you.

We need to be able to be out there and see you first. And so I think for a disaffected community like that, that's why it's been very important for me to go to Pennsylvania and go to places like Reading. Then you also have an activist left that is also a place that I come from.

That is horrified at what we see unfolding in Gaza. I have called it a genocide on the House floor. Many others feel that way as well. And saying, how can we allow our disgust at what is happening be transmitted and communicated? And can we communicate that? Should we communicate that by sitting this election out? To me, yes.

That case is is a different one. It's a different one than then Then communities that have been disaffected and ignored and are hearing from a politician for the first time That to me that case is very much about the first of all the stakes of this present moment and it's also about articulating a larger plan and how we get the Democratic Party to shift left for me

And what I've seen and also I think what we see in general is that the party moves left in primaries. But when we lose general elections, the Democratic Party shifts dramatically to the right. When elections are close, as we see now, the Democratic Party shifts to the right in general elections. And so to me, it's multifaceted. One, a Donald Trump presidency would be utterly catastrophic. It would put...

vulnerable communities, even more vulnerable communities at risk in addition to the ones that are at risk right now. So to me, the message that I had in Pennsylvania is we're

I'm not going to punish trans kids in Indiana over this. I'm not going to punish single parents who are feeding their kids with WIC and EBT over this. And we also need to really invest in a long-term organizing strategy so that candidates who believe that human rights extend to Palestinians can be elected and supported by a strong, mobilized left in America. So it's interesting because...

What I hear there is basically a very practical case to people who are thinking about how to use their vote in the most effective way when they feel pretty disaffected by their options. At the same time, there is this kind of more emotional or identity-driven conversation about this vote, especially online, that feels much less driven by just

and much more about, there's a lot of rhetorical questions. How could I bring myself? How could anyone? And I, look, I want to be sympathetic at the same time I have this part of myself that should go like, I know, I know, suck it up. We just have to do this. We have to do this right now to save the country and give us any fighting chance. We can ask the hard questions, the rhetorical questions after the election, but you don't do that. You seem to have much more discipline. Yeah.

and empathy. So how do you think about talking to people that are feeling that way? And by the way, whose feeds have been filled with monstrous images who have been fed since real and awful images of reality that has alienated them from the political process? Well, you know, I really can empathize in multiple ways. One is I totally get the frustration and I also totally get

how people feel about this. First of all, our brains, our minds are, the human brain is not designed to intake this amount of trauma, anger, mass, everything all the time. The same way that people just cannot

Our minds are not built to withstand the trauma of what is happening in Gaza. Palestinians, Americans watching what is happening, you know, seeing this unspeakable violence. It is it's we have to understand what that does to our brains and what it does to our minds. But to me, we have a responsibility to set conditions on behalf of individuals who are victims.

just experiencing the horrors of what is happening. But also, I think it is important that to me, my vote is not about an extension of myself. And I think it's important to validate that there are different ways to looking at voting.

Some may look or hear or see who we vote for as an extension of ourselves. And if we look at voting that way, then every single election becomes so much more fraught because there's we're never you're just never going to find a politician that aligns with you completely in every single way. I don't even agree with my mother on everything. Like it's it's just not.

it will make these decisions much more difficult. But when I think about the history of people's movements and people's struggles, when I think about the enslavement of Black Americans, and when I think about, you know, Puerto Ricans that were sterilized by the U.S. government, when I think about people's movements and the horrors that people in the United States endured, they are often both

the most radical and the most pragmatic strategic actors in American history. And we can be both. I...

draw a lot of inspiration from Latin American organizing and the Latin American left. And we see this a lot in the Latin American left as well. What we need is an activism that is not limited by electoralism only. And that doesn't mean rejecting electoralism. It means of thinking of elections as a condition setting strategy for a larger organizing project. We have a lot of work that we need to do

And it's not going to be voting alone that stops what happens in Gaza. We need a counter to AIPAC. We need a voting electorate that supports people who believe in human rights in primary elections. And you need non-electoral, of course, organizing strategies as well. But I never...

personally. I do not believe in ascribing to a strategy of giving up the power that we have and allowing this decision to be made not by us. So you mentioned this broader organizing of the left and in Latin America. You were just in Puerto Rico, and there's something very interesting happening down there. And I wanted to ask you about it because it is...

a kind of organizing that I think in contrast to sometimes what you see on the left in the U.S., something that has been like exciting. There've been a lot of protests that you were saying have become almost like giant parties. You have people like Bad Bunny getting in the fight and you kind of want to be on your side and Bad Bunny's side, I think, in general. So what's happening in Puerto Rico and what are the lessons there, win or lose, for progressives organizing against corruption in the U.S.? Yeah.

Yeah, no, I mean, I actually think there's a lot of lessons that we can gain from what is happening in Puerto Rico. It's really, really an exciting and utterly historic moment.

that we're seeing for a very long time. There has been basically a corrupt two-party system in Puerto Rico. But in Puerto Rico, parties are not aligned by left and right. They're aligned by status. So there's a pro-statehood party. There's been a pro-commonwealth, which is to say like the current status quo party. And for a very long time, there was kind of an independence party that got a very, very small amount of the vote. But the problem is that over time,

both of these parties, neither one of them really delivered on any sort of status momentum. They used it as a fig leaf

for a lot of self-serving, corrupt machine type of politics. And we saw this after Hurricane Maria. You had Donald Trump's enormous amount of corruption where millions of dollars were going to his cronies. But you also saw this on the island, too. A lot of politicians were misusing funds and everyday people were suffering.

And people started getting sick of this. And they started getting sick of that kind of the way the system was being built up. And so around 2018, people started seriously pursuing a third party strategy. This is different than the third party strategy that sometimes we see in the continental U.S., which is like every presidential election, someone may come up or you'll see a third party candidate or, you know, pop up for massive statewide seats.

But it was a serious, very pragmatic third party coalition party that was saying, we're not going to run on a status position period. We're going to run on good governance and we're going to be an anti-corruption party.

They're going to have a youth movement at its core, but they're also going to recruit very real and capable legislators and leaders to try to run. And so they started capturing city council seats. They started capturing mayoral seats. They started capturing state assembly and state senate seats.

And over the last six years, a lot of progress has been made in a very short period of time. And this year, they have formed an alliance with the Independence Party and what is known as Movimiento Ciudadania, the Citizens Movement Party, in creating a multi-status coalition, saying if you believe in statehood, if you believe in independence, if you believe in commonwealth status,

We're going to put all of that aside right now. What matters the most right now is electing politicians that are accountable to the electorate and who aren't corrupt. And this is a really important lesson for the left because

For example, a lot of folks in a more militant decolonial position would say you should never be in coalition. If that's the position that a person has, for example, like super pro-independence, they may say you should never be in any sort of alliance with any sort of pro-statehood supporter. But that will leave you marginalized in 3% forever. And then

All that does is have the people who are most opposed to your position be, you know, continue to be in power or on the opposite side of the spectrum. A pro-statehood supporter may say we should never, ever, ever be in alliance with independent supporters.

But to that end, then all that happens is that you just get these super corrupt people that then represent your party and you'll never have any other option. And so what we're starting to see are the steps of movement. You know, we can't have sometimes.

We can't get to the conclusions that we need to get to because it's not just these systems that we're combating against. We actually need to win a majority of people. And too often we're organizing intra-left and the left needs to also organize an electoral majority to our position. I think we've made a lot of momentum to that end. But when we have these conversations, that's why to me,

Sometimes these decisions, they do need to be much more pragmatic. And our activism is where we can exercise some of our deepest convictions. So let's talk about being pragmatic in the homestretch here. John Kelly, one of Trump's chiefs of staff, went on the record in audio, won't say it on camera for some reason, that Trump is a fascist. It's set off a real Trump's a fascist news cycle.

Vice President Harris agreed with the sentiment on her CNN town hall with Anderson Cooper. Obviously, Trump is a threat. Also, the Harris campaign is trying to, I think, turn up the anxiety a little bit when people have become a bit inured to the menace that Trump poses. But, you know, you're talking about these two groups of people. How do you translate a story like that?

into an argument that's either trying to bring out the people who are reluctant to either vote at all or who have concerns about Kamala Harris. To me, it's about talking about the stakes here in specific ways. You know, I think it's we we need to be very clear about what fascism means. This is not a name that we're calling people. This is a very specific set of policies and actions that will occur.

Donald Trump talks about mass deportations. One in every 15 people in the United States lives in a mixed status household. One in every 15. Think about all the people you know, and one out of every 15 of them have a family member who is undocumented. We're talking about breaking up every 15th family in the United States. J.D. Vance and Project 2025 is not just talking about

a national ban on abortion, which if you think you're quote unquote safe in New York or Illinois or California, you're not. A national abortion ban would triumph over any state level abortion protection. We are talking about abortion being banned in the United States point blank period. And not only would it be banned, but unlike the 1970s,

Today, we have a level of surveillance technology which was unthinkable then. And you can be tracked and they want to track you based on any amalgam of information from your cycle, from your Fitbit, from geolocation on your phone. If you try to get an abortion anywhere else, we are talking about the jailing of journalists everywhere.

If you want to know what it looks like, just look at Putin's Russia. And, you know, we live in a constant state of injustice and we're always struggling against systems of mass incarceration, of extreme income inequality, of late stage capitalism. Those conditions do exist. There is no conceivable way to compare that.

the current system of injustices that we have when the gasoline is poured on them by a Donald Trump presidency. And for folks who believe that this will somehow make some sort of just outcome accelerated, just look at what happened in 2016.

We've gone down this path and it's going to be a hundred times worse because Donald Trump knows what mistakes he made the first time now. And he knows that he will not need to install professionals. He just needs to install sycophants. And he's made that very, very, very clear.

OK, well, I'm going to sorry. I guess I was going to I was I was going to end this by saying what drinks are we going to make on election night? But I guess I'm just going to skip to that right now. Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez, thank you so much for coming on the pod. Good luck on the trail. Of course, people get those people. I do think one thing that I think is important, John, is that we can't have elections.

I know I just did this, but I'm pausing because when we... Yes, we can ask the questions about what's at stake. I want to be very clear that we also must mobilize for an affirmative vision for this country. We can't just mobilize on fear. We need to be clear about what the stakes are. We do. But...

I don't believe in a fear-only approach. And I'll tell you what I believe. I believe in a bare minimum. Listen, $15 minimum wage needed to be passed several years ago, but doing that day one and fighting to hike that even higher. I believe in guaranteed improved and expanded Medicare available to every single American. I believe in all, you know, a wide swath of our progressive agenda.

I understand that a lot of people may say Kamala Harris may or may not believe in these things. First of all, I think she believes in them like much more on a personal level than oftentimes what campaign rhetoric 14 days out from an election would have someone believe. But not only that, we just can't give up. And I just don't believe in giving up

I've been in that place. I was a waitress and barely made enough in tips to keep my lights on. I did spend some time giving up and being cynical and saying, fuck this. And you know what it got us? Nothing. It got us nothing but depression and cynicism and a sense of purposelessness.

And it was only when I decided to reject that, that we decided to start organizing and having absolute breakthroughs in our electoral process. And I'm not just talking about my victory. In the state of New York, DSA has elected state-level activists to office that have helped us pass some of the

biggest, most progressive policies on the state level. It helps inform what we're having, what's happening on the federal level. Like we cannot give up. We giving up is a privilege that people just can't afford. We cannot afford to give up on women who are bleeding out in parking lots. I refuse to give up on these folks. And like movements wax and wane.

And there are times when our power feels like it's waning and it's really easy to take our ball and go home. But the strength of a movement really depends on

the durability of it and the commitment to it. So... Yeah, no, you said just before, you said something in that speech at the labor movement, which sort of struck me. You said some version of, you understand why people feel this tension. They feel this sense of struggle because we're kind of at this moment between the past and the future. And obviously that's about Trump is backwards and Kamala is forwards. But it did feel like you were saying something a bit deeper about this moment and about, like, we have met, like...

There have been local elections. Joe Biden is a testament to this on a host of domestic issues. Joe Biden. We moved him. He moved him so far. Joe Biden, his policy positions are so different than where he had started. It is remarkable. That is a testament to what happens when people actually show up. So everybody's got to show up. And I can tell you as an elected, and I work with a lot of other Congress critters too, like...

They pay attention to who got them there. They talk about you stick with who took you to the dance, right? And like that's whatever people may want to feel about that phrase. The reality is you don't want people to feel like they can win without you. Losing is not the same thing as winning without you.

Because losing, when people opt out, the fact of the matter is huge amounts of people don't vote for reasons that are not ideological at all. The way we send a message is by being part of what a politician relies on to get elected in office. And

Again, if we want to move the party left, we need to be able to engage forcefully in the primary process. Bernie Sanders did this in 2020, but we also need to have a reality check with ourselves because the left is

We need to organize in the primary process, whether it's through electing folks or defending and protecting folks in the primary process as well. And if we can't electorally cash our own checks, then we cannot push the issues forward. And so to me, having a resounding electorate is really important. The reason I can do what I do in Congress is because I

electoral margins go up every single cycle.

This year, I won by the highest primary margin that I have yet, 80-something percent. That is an FU margin where I can then go to House caucus and I'm like, this is what my community believes. This is what is right. And you can come after me with all your APAC dollars that you want, but it's not going to work. It's not going to work around here. And those are the kinds of seats and margins that we need to win by, but we're not going to do it by counting everything out all the time. It's just...

like this black pill, like cynicism that, that is what is the death of movements, not the birth of them. AOC, thank you so much for your time. And for anyone listening, if you've got somebody in your life that has given you the business of this variety, send them, send them what AOC had to say. Thank you so much for being here. And yeah, let's win this thing, I suppose. Thank you all so much. Let's do it.

That's our show for today. Thank you to Tim for co-hosting and a huge thanks to AOC for joining us. Dan and John will be back in the feed on Friday morning with a new episode and an interview with Dan Osborne, the independent Senate candidate in Nebraska, who surged to a tie with incumbent Republican in a deep red state. Don't miss it. Thanks, everybody.

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