Neutering Google
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You're a big fan of london.

right? Is my favorite city to hang on IT to visit.

I think it's Better than new york.

And a lot of I do like these social kind of dimension like this. One things I like about, I like one of the pub. I like talking english.

I like talking to cap. There are my spirit animals. I like culture.

little and funy. That's that's.

that's what i'm trying to think.

找 真人。

Welcome people for algorithms. And brian Marcy each week joined by two Young and Alexander Alexis joined us little later, right? Because we're doing this.

Thank you for doing this a little bit early. I'm in london and been here all week. I've noticed this like it's little things that they have trees, they have parks. Its clean in most areas.

it's very beautiful. No, there were no homeless .

people sleeping in a subway station or on the streets outside of my hotel list. Unlike home in there's a lot to there's a lot to say about london. And then I go and I compare IT to you know all the dome gloom economic figures that come out of europe these days because the united states decoupled from from most european countries.

But as one of the things where IT doesn't really show up, like when you go to visit this place here, like I don't know the foods Better, like the lifestyle seems Better, people seem a lot more chill, and I don't know, there's always a disconnect. IT reminds me of how, for a generation, I been reading about what a failure japan is. And then I go to spring also.

But those are the days we live in. I mean, if you know, the weather is horrific here, so I would never love here in a million years because of that, a lot. So they worry .

there are moments of glory. But interment.

it's funny because when I have conversations with polish here, because we have a lot of the publishing and industries, IT is a lot of like the human glumm stuff because they keep getting hit with different things. And I like a lot of this well as me, and i'm usually talking with american publishers, right? And any come to like a market like this that is so much smaller then the U.

S. market. And like people here, you know honestly, U. S. Publishers should be really thankful that just by like accident, they happen to be in this massive market. I mean, just test budgets.

You know, someone who was telling me last night, like, yeah, we had a test budget here. Are we? Like, twenty five thousand pounds.

And then like U. S. Colleagues, like, yeah, I know they can only do a test for like seven hundred fifty thousand dollars. I don't think americans in general recognize the amazing sort of unearned privilege of just being in in this .

market in it's the global scale market. The other thing is, is that because of that, I think the U. K. British market is isn't has always been very transactional. You know, there are the rewards of a of a pinta dinner and notorious, you know, kind of media spending on lavished dinner and stuff with media buying buyers.

But the media buying process singing when this way more sort of turn and burn, just like get the IOS, get them done, like small numbers of people processing lots of orders. And the other thing is the comparative market, like money supermarket, which is like the affiliated business in in the U. K.

S. IT doesn't really exist in the us. It's way more sophisticated there. So they actually have a really, really robust sort of services of fillip market with a small number of players that do kind of the comparative stuff that the equivalent of an eeda, this money supermarket that compares everything from soluble phone plans to more ages in credit cards. So there's parts of that market that are very sophisticated.

I find that there's less of the sort of o will do know an event can create a answer content and you these sort of sophisticated bRandy multidirectional onal U S. You know, insertion orders that that get you to your five hundred thousand or billion and or two million doors level. And it's just like, you know, what are we, anna, do how do we I want to buy some media. So it's it's a very transactional place on the media. 3 and then the kind of media market on the newspaper side is is brutally competitive and far that far harsher than the american。

Yeah I think that's why that is what that is why us news organisms are bringing in the britts. They're more feral. They're used to doing more with less.

I mean, I always hear people here like they're just like a David say that gobs fact or Michael wolf would say that at the size of teams still in in the U S. Is a functional of massive market. But 这 shows that you know， when you're going into more th less, I think people please do IT a lot more here.

But one of the things that keeps coming up here, but also in is back in in in new york, is around the future of searching. And we've seen this is a recurrent theme here, but I don't think it's one we can actually under emphasize because the search so critical to this industry and IT is going through a lot of profound changes. How would you frame? You know, because I ask, I ask publishing executives, these somewhat lavish dinner that I D like to have.

I don't know when to call a lavish, but there is somewhat lavish. I ask them for like topics. I had a time and then you know I run IT through like laud or something for like key themes and it's always a AI in search.

This is always the number one, whether it's you know U K. Or last week in new york, everyone concerned about the future of search, they already feeling IT google less reliable than ever. And this week, you know google confirmed one of its you big changes is really how it's treating a filter content because IT is now really coming out.

Me I was taking some manual actions, but I saying you can't outsource the stuff. I was talking to a publisher last night who yeah going back to the same thing is like way to second newspapers were all his, including coupons within the the the bundle and and third party content to which my response was, well, they kind of control the distribution. And when you're not controlling the distribution, you not really in control.

And that is a simple fact of life. IT feels like publishers these days. I guess at .

the highest level, IT feels like we're between errors doesn't IT you know and in between when I say errors, I guess their distribution errors are almost from a consumer prospect the way we you know navigate access and and control the the content experiences we have.

And I think that when you're between areas and every error would seem to me is kind of defined by a central force, be at a company or a conStellation, a company's manifest in a kind of navigational mechanism like so you TV had the program guide and IT was relationships between the cable companies when the cable networks and there was there was a current of stability to that to that relationship and the relationship with the customer and the radio air had the same in newspaper, had kind of local monopoly and the stability that came along with that. And and like IT or not, there's a sort of a bunch, I think, today, of a nation states that are controlled by you, the people that that own that distribution point in that technology and set the rules. And you facebook sets the rules in all of the, you know a little few tims or kingdoms and and you know ticked up is the same.

And everybody that knows, you know a large technology driven kind of community or distribution system sets the rules. Google sets the rules largely for the open web. And now they are you know being attacked from multiple kind of vantage points.

They're being attack by the government. They are being attacked by as as an you know an antitrust accusations. They're being attacked by you know publishers for changes to there, you know, reliable distribution. They're being taken by consumers because people think that the search results have become filled with ads and unreliable. So and they're being the attacked by competitors so that anybody that say abbott or is kind of worked ChatGPT or complexity or cloud into their kind of information routine or diet knows that, that this is this is going to change pretty quickly. So I feel like the justice department outlining that they should either pushing the judge to the force google to sell chrome, sell android, or force google not to to have the dominant search position on and to to refrain from paying for positions in apple and others for safari and search or I think actually most profoundly give others the search index data, right, to give them the ability to run the google search feed. And that's the one that i'm kind of most interested, to be honest.

because explained that because I assume that IT would be. I am not a lawyer at all. I assume that I would be a behavioral sort of ruling that they would say, okay, you can buy distribution that you bought from from apple and but this is IT seems very clear that they that the government is going after a structural that they think this is structural. And I can see that because.

yeah, I know my biggest criticism of this brand is that their way behind because they're always a good no. But like google, hetch mony is being eroded without the government.

But this is microsoft. Two point out in microsoft .

d was don't think of crime is being uprooted er think of grown is being google home page. All chrome did is pushed the search process up into your nab bar on on chrome as supposed to using you. Google dcom is a place that you go.

No one goes to google dcom anymore, just type into the brother er window. So IT is effectively a you an appendage of google IT. IT is the google home pitch. So if you take away the google home page, remember chrome has sixty seven percent of the of the browser market. I mean that that is pretty fundamental. Not only not only that, but IT opens up questions as to you know who's going to pay for who's going to pay for grown, grown moving forward like with google then have a business would would they be prevented from having a business relationship to buy search traffic from whoever is the next donor of chrome? So I I think that's that's kind of not the right move. And and and I also think we should remind everyone that monopoly or causing monopoly sometimes create a lot of stuff that is a benefit to the world, right? Like we get a lot out of this system, just like eighteenth monopoly created bell labs, created silicon, unix know a lot of the foundational technologies define our world today.

We might be getting self driving cars. Thanks to all the search clicks. Thank you, everyone.

out there for yeah hundred percent. So if you looked at this and said we want more innovation in how we find information and how we support the media market in in how you know the spoils of advertising are are are split among the all of the constituents of the ecosystem. You might say, let other people have the data in the search feed so that they can run.

There's clear network effects in understanding how consumers are using the internet and manifesting that in Better search results, in Better at performing at placements. And if you were to open up that search feed to other competitions, someone like perplexity or ChatGPT, like if you use chat P T today and the most compelling use cases when you're looking for contemporary information and IT connects you know the the L M to the to the web index, and you get a result back that that you know current, right? If if people had access to google's search feed, they could make extraordinary products without being google, like the consumers would get really crazy stuff yeah.

I think that I don't know how you feel about this when I ask gets you, I can, I can go off. But like you would be most ideal if, like innovation, solve this coral problem rather than the government. I don't know about the government choosing you know to to how markets should be shaped.

It's clear. It's clear to at least that this market is probably not ideal from an economic perspective. I mean, I was sitting next to a publisher last night who was maintain, you know, basically how gool can destroy entire, entire websites. And not even like small websites, they can, they can destroy the biggest.

They can literally take you off the map. You do not exist to the world, one man.

your life that you they have true cancel culture like they can.

You of them destroy your business. I mean, do with several terms. Price, river.

river, nice. I'd like that is to cover for Price graver dm news, speaking of face cover, this actually came up last night. They knew proa dut A I.

bill gross, bill grocer's thing that's gonna try to cut more reasonable deals with the media market.

So the kosa their angle is their cutting deals that to deal with a bunch of U. K. Publishers and the daily male parent company took a stake in parada and apparently they are coming out.

I was told him like february. I in fact check that. And I think it's really, really I mean, bill gross is sometimes forgotten IT.

He is the the godfather of paid search at go to and an overturn and google coronal barred yet for for themselves and and perfect to IT. But I don't know if I think if the market can solve this, that would be the ideal. Like I just don't know if structurally, like he said that.

So what what makes a pretty this idea of giving people access to the index? Because the market has failed to innovate on this on on this model at all, like there's never been anyone when microsoft can can barely make a dent. It's a sign that the market is really difficult to to have be competitive.

Alexis.

here I are. You in a sona mean?

yeah. So you're so let you finish .

the sounds like you talk about interesting stuff while we're .

talking about chrome, we're not talking about politics yet. We are going to wait for you to come for ill an hour.

Let's Carry you on this point in the alex can introduct. So first of all, my concern would be the dicing up google at the level of like cutting out chrome would make for a studio world for consumers, and that what I would hope for is a way to unlock their data, to create more innovation, to create Better products or consumers. And the innovation cycle is sort of solving this problem for the D O G.

A. anyway. But and just to bring IT to some examples, you're seeing IT right now along the way, many, many publishers are going to get hurt. The context of this is, let's face IT, depending on the publishing category, you're in a fillip revenue, which is, you know, just to remind folks, is essentially writing about products, whether that's an extension of your life style coverage or actually is a kind of consumer reports like function, is has created a world of performance marketing that the bayside that marketers really like because they pay for needs, they pay for business, they pay for results. So it's worked really well.

And out of all of the bullshit advertising solutions that sadly the internet has sponsored that have not worked, that literally people have traded in for twenty years, banners, stupid content marketing stuff that I would say has been kind of the best thing to come out of. The sort of banner industrial complex was like retargeting via radio, you like of all that stuff. I feely IT is actually attractive performance oriented product.

And then like anything, everybody uses a show and you get, you know, too many people making the same content, optimizing for things that are you know, financial and not the the the well being or, you know, needs of a consumer. Having said all that, twenty to forty percent of people's revenue, twenty to forty percent. Now google in in ten on a wiping out that layer and bringing IT to the search interface. And our new new players are and I don't know if you've seen perplexity new product .

cards with plex xxi pro. Yes, yes. But what .

what I could do is I could say I saw query which will share in the notes was around what are the best patagonian skip? Should I buy this sort of entry level potato onion ski pant, or should I spend more? And by, you know, the gorge x more expensive version.

And then basically, the allam breaks down the query into a multistep set of questions, goes out, explains to the consumers the trade off between product day and product be, by the way, all of that content has been kind of created by the blood, sweat and tears of the affiliate, you know, industrial complex that publishers have kind of sweat away to make money at. And then IT lists the products in a card with the kind of process coins and list them all out. And then you can create IT, you know, nine more ways to sunday to get all of your questions answer.

And perplexity is going to start bringing those less sort of IT energetic function to this to allow you to buy the product rate from there, which I actually think is the least important of the whole thing, like you can go out and buy IT from, you know, mt. Equip cop, or from, you know, from had to go you to come on whether you buy your stuff. I don't think that's that hard for consumers anymore, but the organization presentation of that information is a stunning advancement in how you get information about a product stone.

But isn't this I mean, so I guess it's like the two things can be true at once. One, this is terrible for publishers. But two, this is really grave for consumers. That sounds, that sounds IT sounds Better to me than waiting through a bunch .

of like links from and now direct from cama, california. Alex.

you up over to you, alex.

I mean.

I know the problem now .

is going to say, is going to say something super annoyed like i've been telling you guys this.

i'm not even doing that anymore.

Space ship is in a .

stable. I think at this point you all is simulated. No, I mean, it's it's true. I one who has to wonder where the future of that content is coming from. You saying it's you know that all of their content from the affiliates. I actually think a lot of accountants from redit and and places like that, I think at some point even that you're just getting for free, the product is much Better for .

consumer and know you're very you're very messenian in your point of view here that you think that the consumer will provide the information to solve for what media cannot when there's no business model left.

I mean, a lot of these media businesses were essentially aggregation. If you look at like is a especially product stuff, right? I mean, I love the wire cutter. I think some of these progress are great. But if if you look .

at i'm so fucking liberal.

the liberal product work product is like .

work wode and walk care driers. But no, I mean.

I think the dangerous .

thing here for all of these sites is that, that content is readily available with you. If you it's just IT hasn't been a accessible in a way that was compelling because you know it's it's a nightmare through amazon reviews. Red IT is is kind of incomprehension to a lot of people, but a lot of that source of knowledge is there and it's just going to be reinforced by their own search quarries.

I mean, I think for me when I look at perplexity is not like, are people are going to use are people going to use this over google? Is that is that is that going to be the winner? Is open OpenAI ging to be in the weather? I I have this OpenAI resident program on my mac, which which you you can press, you know, on the mac, you can press command space. And IT IT opens a search, right? Every plays that with something called ray cast.

which already .

does .

a lot of f slowdown. Bb, what is ray cast? That sounds intriguing.

So when you press command space on on the man, it's kind of like your on on the windows pcs like pressing the windows command and IT opens the search box and that search box lets you launch application find files except right, it's true. It's that is something that you can replace with an APP called raygan and IT as more intelligence, more features, you can add your own shortcuts. Now what came with the latest version of OpenAI on my mac is that I say, well, if you press option space, which is the key next to IT, IT just opens up a little .

open e eye .

like search window. And I and just once you have that, the use, the behavior that I have now just show .

that the new crime.

it's is the new chrome. And so and so all of that going to happen through these types of interfaces because so ox.

is that that the D I J, because we are talking about the D I J here, remedy about, do you a knife chrome, or do you want a knife android? And if you don't do crown, then we're going to come to and this structural solution thereafter. And this is always the case that the government always fights the last year. They always too late to to the party IT is this thing who said you wait .

the government what you're onna love the next one.

Is this the case? Like, I mean, isn't this is the market actually already solving this problem? Like I mean, you might take a little bit longer.

The remedy seems like really I mean, I am usually pretty probable regulation and I think .

you are european.

Well, I mean, also I think like big tech is like it's kind of stuff a lot stuff done here. But but I don't understand, first of all, what is a chrome company looked like like how can I make money? That's a terrible business. Well, there needs .

a search deal .

to is a search deal.

which is one of the things that they are trying to stop then doing with apple, right? Like if you don't want these types of things like legislate that you cannot have these types of search deals with apple anymore.

Is goos google chrome, google's home pay jokes? That's IT IT doesn't make sense to decrease.

Think I think governments are over consent decrees. These companies have so much money, they just pay the fines. Facebook did decrease in europe and there is like whatever pay.

No, I mean, i'm not thing. I mean, that is absolutely true, but i'm saying the remedy there's other remedies that aren't just like separate chrome, right? I think because because at this stage, like there are different ways you could be improving the marketplace.

Let other people run the search feed, alex, and you've got you solved the problem.

yes. Or either way, it's it's kind of late now because the the the new front has just opened up, right?

Well, that's what I mean. Is this new front like gone to solve the problem where the government this always gets tied up in course matter what that comes down.

It's it's the problem, to be clear with its google market ture.

Yeah, I think the problem is that this is a malformed market. It's it's not functioning like a competitive market. I don't think anyone would say that .

is I just want to be clear about I functioning in the sense that, that the consumers are not welcome by by google or getting access information features.

What you mean functioning the typical anti trust definition? I believe .

google is function and great.

yeah. Is consumer harm, right? And that google will tell you that at the alternative is one click away saying that for a generation, I think hip ter anti trust would would hold.

And it's become more popular across the political spectrum that when you don't have competition from other businesses, there's a lot of harm that comes downstream. Businesses can be harmed. Publishers can be harmed sometimes by google in out.

I mean, I think we're seeing IT, right? We're seeing algorithms m changes that you know can kind of like totally destroy businesses overnight because you know you dealing with a do up on on on internet advertising, you seeing these crazy deals with apple that like don't allow any uh, new players to come in.

You actually see the overall quality of the search results getting worse and worse, and you seen an overall kind of destruction of of like the internet as IT turns into more than seo factory than than anything useful. So I don't know how much of that has come into play here, but I don't think google's product is has made the internet Better for people. And if anything, like it's stopped any like it's impossible to launch any type.

Yeah that's a pretty narrow way to look at. I mean, I guess just search. But you know gm l was a revelation, if you recall, and google dogs.

But once again, gmail, gmail was I mean, google was a revelation. Google dog was a revelation. Google dog hasn't been updated for iphones and forever a google sheet.

miserable product to use on that. They don't. I love the google. I love google dog.

Gmail was with that. If if you look at the the work that they doing, innovating on those products compared to the competition, is that not doing what you consider this, the company that kind of like a trophy a little bit on on the innovation front? And then gmail was a great product.

They launched, you know, if you remember with one eg. About but today, I I think the gmail could be kind of if people give a shit about email, you cannot really have an email client that isn't a gmail or an outlook or one of these large ones. Because space becomes such a problem, you really need to kind of get your email from one of the big providers to to to get IT you know filter and wide listed in away. So like and all of these large companies have made the internet a little bit worse. But whatever the case, like at this stage, like pulling from out of stuff is pretty like IT just doesn't doesn't work.

People are always so explaining me. I am unclear why a cortical wouldn't work. You say nothing would change, would change for the worse.

It's just like a it's a way to cripple google. But I think it's gonna hurt to consumers more than anything because we might, but we might get to is an an environment where we have like misalignment of different browsers that worked potentially differently or I don't understand what the chrome business looks like and what the chrome products looks like when IT has to start making its own money.

I got at at at the very least right now, chrome as a browser isn't is incentivize to be a really great browse and everybody uses the search. So IT sends single money, right? Once you don't have that, then you have to make A A deal.

And that's the types of deal that the that that we don't want, right? We don't want research deals on the dominant browser. You know honestly, you know, we don't want IT for firefox.

We don't want IT for safari. We don't want IT for anything. It's just going to put another player that has another deal there.

I don't know. I don't think that's going to be great for anybody. At the very least of people use chrome. And the internet works pretty well on the crime.

Maybe those have like sticky video ads that follow you around.

Yeah, I would be great. Like a cold, like lower third. Yeah, I could come up with something.

So, bad idea. No up a lot of video.

and not a bad idea.

There wasn't, brother, by the way, when I, when I moved to the U. K, you could get free internet and you need to download down brothers. And the browser had a ticker of ad i'd like, screw at the bottom at all times, which, you know, that took me.

like five years. Was IT all advantage? Was that early internet there? Something like, all that did, something very much people try to do PC is like free PC. Well.

people are doing that with tvs. Now you can get a free T, V that has a whole second screen brushes that.

you know, let just a little bit you up. Yeah.

good product to the week again.

So every publisher that is scrambling deal with the new economic realities of the world that where google is less reliable is gonna say, we gotta go direct, right? They're gonna a, say, you know, focus on the emails, focus on new forms of recommend icon like text messaging or WhatsApp distribution. The bold may say we need our own APP strategy.

Others will say we're going to invest more in youtube or in podcasting. And the truth is so so everybody will scramble le to to get more of your attention and you will field annoying and noisy. And I guess in that market, the best, the most difference, the most unique, you know, trusted voices, individuals that you want to follow start to, you know, emerge as a new kind of class of elites, you know, information, space, characters. And then the media world only gets back to some.

Normally, when a distribution system emerges that is stable, that has rules where it's sort of not quite turns into an oligopoly, but something like IT in every generation of media, whether was governed by the government's allocation of of spectrum or you know, in the case of radio and television or like I said earlier, an ability to publish news content in the local market or relationship between cable providers and cable networks, or in the magazine world. Large rate basis, and A A new stand distribution system controlled by basically for companies, something has to get back to something stable for media to pay people to have unions to have any kind of now IT may just become, you know this beautiful e business that looks more like your local coffee shop where there's you know small businesses and some break out. And so there's some it's like a star system.

But if it's ever gonna be like an industry, there needs to be a new structure. And nobody, nobody knows what the answer is because you can't see IT in OpenAI. You can you can see yet how media companies are onna manifest inside of this crazy smart interface in a way that pays people real money.

We will go further IT seems tagish to that. I mean, everything that comes out of these companies is is that that's not that's not really one of their concerns.

Maybe for like P, R cut some yeah and guys like alex say burn IT all down. Who gives a fuck? Know the information come from the cracks and crevices and little monsters all over .

the internet that's .

brand and and meanwhile, like his union bodies will be you know sleeping on a sofa.

You make room on .

the .

way you're signing a lot of like, well, first of you're waiting for the structure to appear. Good luck. See, see you later.

We'll see. We see what that comes up. But isn't IT is the playbook. Men are not. First of all, I I think a lot of actually .

your answer last week was just make good shit in the well.

But I think I think what happens is that these structures emerge and then bigger dia companies emerge and they built some sort of dominance, which means they need to stop improving their product. And IT turns out the product that they end up with you don't like cable news or whatever like that. This is pretty baby news. Well, I mean, baby news, you know, we we just found out that comcast is like just like offloading all these these cable channels.

right ah they like toxic .

assets and decline but but just good but I I want to create .

a new podcast around that called baby news.

We should this is the tech playbook. When you know navesink came out, you know navesink was the first itunes IT just, you know, you start is is that don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness, right? And then you know, google did the same thing, right? They didn't really ask at first.

Youtube didn't the same thing. Youtube became popular because I was pivoting. And then they become the platform. And you know what, every time on this platform may be, except for music, which was like, IT has this really kind of saw structure.

They don't the platforms don't want organized large media companies with negotiation power to be on those things. They want the brian Morris is they want like a million brian maracas. They don't want a thousand conchas because a thousand come cast. I pay as and .

and i'm very plant exactly.

cut the check, advertise perplexity you like well, shill for IT, but as the playbook. And so whatever structures come up, I think they're very rarely friendly to large organizations. And and so that's something to look out for.

Something makes the the tech worlds embraced the trump like make sense who know it's going to happen. I mean, so what are the things that that came up?

I mean, you have lain uz a in a private jet. Know that this things.

yeah, I play with house money at that point. One of the things that came up with the new growth agenda from one of the publishing executive big publisher, right, was basically just about the missing and senate and how you create any system that replace is what this this current one with incentives to to create really good content.

Because I think the the internet is mostly, to me, be like kind of a failure when IT comes to professional publishing, right? I mean, think there's a lot of grade amateur publishing with everyone to call you call user generated content. I don't think it's necessarily a healthier information ecosystem than what we had before.

Like I really is hard for me to say that, that if you're thinking about IT as like our people overall more informed on that side, I don't think so. I didn't seem like that really worked out. And the incentives were always and publishers admit this, the incentives were always to create, you know, crap.

And there they're not set up by publishers. They're set up by by google. And the people are controlling the interface and upstream from them.

And I was go back to the the jump to recipe button, like that's what google completely. You created this. Google all that.

Bx, sorry that everyone has to do. You created this. You created all the that have. And publishers get chased the incentives and then they get .

worked for IT, google internet. I mean.

like one of the so this publish is like, are we just gna go towards A I demand media? Basically.

I hope, is that A I does push us towards less ffred because the the seo error let us to create content. I was readable by machines and humans needed to kind of like walk around all that last right to try to get to the content. While A I is about to contextualized. It's a the AI product is really about putting content in front of people that they really want with as little as friction as possible. That is a lot of issues with that, but I wonder how that changes the incentives, you know and the incentives are no longer as CEO did either.

You see the ban afflux on my violin.

He broke out of sense.

Yeah, what was your? I think some people were surprised, although I feel like ben africa regularly pop up.

Remind you that like this, I think ben africa and madam and I actually like both pretty savy hollywood people, right? They can have rose up with with he had a viral .

video that was great about why hollywood doesn't create good movies anymore. Yeah, just went by the on hot ones.

Yeah, in on. I mean, I think he made some good points. I think the main points were that like A I will is like having a craft person, right? Like IT will replace a lot of kind of tasks, even quite creative, one that you would usually hire a lot of craft people for.

And I think was, you know, as relevant. It's gna come for things. I also think that A I is going to generate a lot of trash content, but thankfully, we'll also have eye to filter through IT.

So yeah, I think it's important should not be too cynical here and say that while big algorithmic distribution systems can create perverse incentives or an incentive misalignments so that people create spam at scale, the the kind of open shelf you know construct of the internet, meaning it's not controlled on by a couple of companies on a timely like broadcast television has has really allowed for remarkable delivery of content to to nation interests, right? And and so you know one of things, just a little thing I wanted to get off my chest, is in media, people can can get really like they can make IT too complicated in terms.

I've trying to figure out, well, what what is your content strategy or how do you organize a media company? Well, the simple answer is you find a group of people that are not well served by a set from an information perspective, and you gather people that conserve that interest, and you do something Better than someone else, or differently than someone else, with a format that makes IT easier for the can. You find someone who doesn't have what they need and give IT to them.

And so, like I was thinking about this, like the podcasting world, you know, we had, you know, talk radio forever, and your choices were really limited. And you listen to what you listen to in your market. And now we have infinite channels of talk radio.

And if you're tired of listening to the sanctimonious caris, wisher and scotland all away, you can tune into amErica this week with meet to T, V and water. Turn right? And they are a different sort of substrates of expertise as a pod cat like there's so many ways to get your need satisfied.

Similarly, if you can stand baby news on CNN, like go to ax or go to where, where will you go, alex, go to threads or go to youtube, go to watch channel five on youtube. Oh my god, right? This sort of like kid making gone so programing with, you know what an iphone so you know on while there have been instances where we've spam consumers through a show point like google, there is also like an infinite library for the interested.

There's so much good stuff, alex, of this in my face, I could not believe that Jimmy fallon had the boom boys aren't let you know the costco guys that do that stupid tiktok thing. We bring the boom. We bring the boom. T need you know about .

no and it's .

like it's like I guess at best, it's an average family from book a return this kind of unattractive and you watch IT just because they're so ridiculous. And so there's this you know this kind of hate watch thing going on. And then I don't understand, I don't understand.

IT called the reasoner.

the risler. But then alex said to me, okay, sure, the internet produces the boom family from booker return. But they also produce, you know, whatever you chap iron and you know mcgee and the elephant.

whatever that I elephant, but and also these are like with the point .

I was too dismissed .

about the the costco guys IT is something that appeals to people and they're bringing you like, no, but they are bringing enjoy to the world IT probably on the indian series, but that's here there. I know I expect tabloid headlines in twenty years that they still exist. The thing is though, like there IT is right, there is all this content and you can go out and find IT.

And that's always been. But I think that's been the case since the beginning of the internet. The chAllenge now, I think, and the opportunity is that how do you find IT? Because the thing about cable and and cable news is that you just turned IT on and IT gave you the thing you want.

IT and IT works like a thing. So so what is that I just turn in on of the future and I I actually think that is, you know, an AI that is like algorithms that are becoming so good that you can find an audience. Is this twenty thousand people you know who love talking about web on eyes? Dry mars will find them, right? absolutely.

Did you see that x has a one thousand dol subscription just for six months? And what you get, our six of us.

we should do that. Would people think .

it's great with, I mean, it's fit, jim, and sorry, with my own.

And g with people that are way smarter than us.

that's the matter. But still, I mean, let's setting in this. Get Price at one thousand dollars for six months. What do you? Twelve months for a thousand?

yeah. What do you? Twelve months? Four thousand. And you know what will stop at ten thousand until we get until .

we get those subscriptions going? I have to go because I have to I got to sing for my supper.

So could you could we wrap IT up at least like where, by the way, im, jim did a great podcast. So yeah, he was a shut up, right? IT was jm was on the podcast the girl room, which is .

buyers the and I thought it's totally .

worth a listen if you haven't listened to that I get and it's okay if .

it's a rebel procs bra no.

I before you leave summed up for folks and then will go into a quick good product.

And then well, I mean, what there there's no semaine that they you know search is is changing completely and it's completely out of control of publishers and not even alex has the answers. It's first, second.

tell no. But I think if you if you are in the business of fiction, you in trouble.

Yeah and publishers and a lot of times are in the business of friction. But at the same time, that's a lot of like large ships. I find there's two different.

Conversations I have like people who are on a small e scale who are in niches are in B2B. They're doing fine like it's not this is seo was never part of the the tool kit. And yeah their chAllenges, like everything was lot of competition. But this kind of x essential stuff is really just one one sector of a far larger market that's becoming even more decentralized. So yeah, I know it's it's unfortunate for the biggest players, but this is a Better time to be pretty small.

Yeah, I know. So it's a new topic and and you want to go, but I wonder if the future media companies also are not just eaten up by agent you know agents like talent agents because at the end of the day, maybe that's the only thing you need, right? That's the collection of people. You know you have A C A, A that manage is a bunch of people who do their own things. You have infrastructure around the contract negotiation actor, like, you know, there is no company that is a big group of musician, but there are agents and and and you know production companies around that.

Great point is a great is a great point when you when you pull out the all of the functions that required to Operationalize media and you realize that it's just about supporting your most talented folks that looks like .

italian agency. Great, good, good product.

Yeah yeah. We do have a good product brand.

Take IT easy .

going to get on the tube.

He's yeah central calls me the.

Good products about something. I would connect two things .

and it's the real .

good .

product. One.

they're both. You know it's it's the substance and the substance to me is chocolate milk.

And I movie products .

last year tell .

you guys I did mean the .

movie and I meant chock up. K, O. What's the complaint do you want to do before?

No, there was a point. Well, one feedback was that they saw the pocket evolving into, like, u vers. Alex was me called him, between which I I was like, actually like that role for myself.

Guide each other.

You know, i'm good OK.

So they made with about .

good products are kind of bullshit. Was the, I mean, we know that .

that s the whole point of good product to go on. Tell me about charging.

Well, I bought a large bottle of chocolate milk, and I drink IT on the way home from my store. Well, and I I just could not believe how good IT was. Like, chocolate milk is literally the best thing ever.

No, that does not tolerant.

Oh, makes you .

pop way to put IT.

Anyway, I could not say more about how much I love chocolate mail. okay? And I would encourage people, I would encourage people, if you like chocolate mail, if you feel anything about chocolate mail, good, Better, in different. Please send brian to note about IT.

But the other thing is, two nights ago I watched the substance, which is I guess it's a twenty four movie I guess like it's not a twenty four it's a two thousand twenty four o horr movie body orr film directed by a french's directive coral far jay and IT starts demi Moore, who's kind of fading holiday ood star who resorts to using this weird black market serum. References to all those things we take now, including olympic, to create a Younger version of herself. And then that Younger version is played by Margaret college. And they live these kind of connected lives. And then as sues success, or markets sues success grows, they start to there starts to emerge tension between the two of them.

Are you ready in I M. D B?

No, no. I just met some notes to my time. There is this climax that is unbelievable either, you see? No.

I haven't seen. I want to watch IT. I feel it's gonna gets pretty messy, right? idea.

Get your statement. Yeah, yeah. I get.

I get to go. Others, where are you? I'm going to the world press. I'm going to the wordpress IP innovation showcase.

Wow, right, right?

I'm going to be speaking with Sophia dogada, the audience director, metro paper here now not the host. I don't think i'm the host.

I'm just a is a revoting event.

It's a club, a club.

Can you can you, you know, shill the.

by the way, alex brain and I, together with another person or organizing a little first of gathering.

I know I asked with with the flying private or is there going to be business?

I don't know if that's in the budget, will have to look in the budget. How are we going to work that .

I think we should like? You ve got to get on IT. We ve got to get on IT.

Let me send me and know with feedback anyone wants to be considered for. It's a very limited set of private residence. And but he is the subject line. Choke up milk. I'll be sure to flag this.

That's IT for the episode of people versus algorithms, where each week we uncover pattern shaping, media culture and technology. Big thanks is always to our producer, vania arson. Ov SHE always makes us a little clear and more understandable, and we appreciate her very, very much.

If you're enjoying these conversations, we'd love for you to leave us a review. IT helps us get the word out and keeps our community growing. Remember, you can find people versus algorithms on apple podcast, on spotify and now on youtube. Thanks for listening, and we will see you again next week.