Rachel Maddow and Billy Corben on Mobsters, Russia, Trump and the 2020 Election
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Hi everyone, new york magazine in the box media podcast network. This is on with kira swish er and i'm cra swish er. Today i'm talking to Rachel meta and Billy carbon about their new film from russia with love IT documents how love partners, a ukrainy american hustler from brighton beach, warmed his way into Donald trumps inner circle and then got set to ukraine to dig up dirt on hunter biden. If you paid a attention to the first truck peach on trial, you probably remember lev's name and know a little bit about this story.

But believe me, if you haven't seen this documentary, you don't know the half of IT, but the documentaries is actually very funny, and lep arna is quite a character, is also terrifying, that our nation is being run by people like this and people like this that hire people like this, particularly the freeLances efforts of an entirely independent, really Juliane, will make you shiver in fright at what's coming next if trump gets back in office. Rachel matter, who's bet on the show before, is executive producer of the film in in case you have and heard of her, she's also the host of the racal medal show on M. S.

B. C, the author of multiple best selling books including prequel and american fight against fashion, and the host of four award winning podcast. Her latest ultra season too is excEllent. And we talked about IT, as I said on my podcast earlier this summer, I recommend this podcast to everybody is critical to understand what's happening now by looking at history. And the residences are enormous.

Uh, you should listen to our conversation if you haven't already about IT while you are IT, make sure to subscribe on, Carry wisher to get these episodes every monday and thursday. My second guest today is Billy carbon in M. A P.

body. And Edward are moral award winning filmmaker. His films include an astonishing one, god forbid, the sex scandal that brought down a dynasty about the relationship between Jerry falwell junior, his wife, Becky fall will, and a hotel poor boy, that's right. And of course, the coking cowboys franchise, which document the rise and fall of america's biggest drug king pins.

You can watch this latest film from carbon and mada from russia with love on nbc 点 com by logging in with your TV provider with additional earrings on M S N B C to come。 It's hopefully going to a streamer, but it's well worth your time. Our expert question for this episode comes from an apple bomb, a writer at the atlantic magazine and one of the smartest st.

Thinkers on russia and ukraine. And one more thing, i've been nominated for the best host in the signal listeners choice awards. If you agree, you can vote at vote dot signal dot com or follow the link in the show notes, vote early and often, as I like to say. And so to signal truck, all right, let's get to IT.

Rachel and Billy, thank you so much for coming on on.

Thank you. Thanks for having mcara.

So Rachel, I want to start with your entry point into this story in january twenty twenty in the medal, the impeachment trial, let partners set down for an interview on your amazon bc show, made a series of bomb shell accusations, take us behind the season and tells how you got the interview and Walkers through the allegations and how you voted them because he was also a kind man yeah.

IT was one of the weirder interview arrivals to sort of that that i've had. First of all, I mean, I had been covering the the the Juliane scam and whatever was going on with this, your current thing, I think, more intensively. The other people, in part of the reason, just to be honest, is that I had kind of made characters on the show, recurring characters of left ear, and I would call eleven ega.

I put them on the screen, I call them my boyfriends. yeah. And once you kind of established characters like that, you can use short for it's easier to tell the stories.

So i'd covered them a lot. But then we got this call that he after was arrested that he was willing to talk to me. IT was just IT was a IT was a terrible idea from his perspective.

I mean, you don't there's a reason you don't talk to people once they're indeed and before they go on trial. It's terrible for their legal defense. So I wanted to make sure that he had a lawyer and that he was taking advice.

This seems like a terrible idea. We spoke to his lawyer. The lawyer assured us that he wanted to do the interview, but the lawyer would be sitting there and probably, love, couldn't say much.

The lawyer would do the whole thing. But then we SAT down and did the interview, and loryer didn't talk at all. Leve talk the whole time.

And I was just bombshell after bombshell after bombshell. IT was terrible for him legally, but I was amazing for me. journalistically.

right? absolutely. I I would be like, fine if you didn't not really care if you and what you worry about things like that.

I'm like fine if you wanted talk talk but but when you think about when when they're saying things, so you have to be very careful about what they're saying is again, as I said, this guy of all things that come through, he's a kind man, right? He's he's a salesmen. Now I would say he's move from comment to salesmen. And um how do you vet that?

I mean the big I think the big story of love in addition, who is as a human body he was involved in is that he did document everything. And so that was in in the course of producing that interview. There's a reason I didn't do IT live.

I did. I taped IT so that we could make sure that I was not saying things, are presenting things on the air, that we're going to be unverified or unverifiable. And we took the receipt that he had, which was essentially no. I'd asked him if he knew a certain politician and they show me a picture of himself for that politician and ask him a views in communication with extra stice department official. He'd show me texts with that official. I mean, I was just the the things that he put himself on the record as having done and and the contacts that he had made IT A A different level of story because IT meant that he was a much bigger legal threat to the people he was accusing, then just A P, R threat for saying things that he couldn't back up. In an interview i've read.

the union producing partners saw the interview me. They recognized love as a quintin ent til florida, and even making films about florida criminals and drug dealers for years. Explain what that means to be a quintin al florida man and how love fits .

that mold well was so much more than just being a quintin al floria man. IT was this favorite genre. We have a fladda men behaving badly with international implications.

It's a butterfly effect story, right? Florida man misbehaves. And suddenly the entire fate of the world has changed. We did IT with god for ID. The sex scandal brought down a dynasty and hou. And how this you alleged coco three em, between a Jerry fy fall well junior, his wife Becky, and a former pool boy from the fountain blue hotel in my my beach. Every time I see that aloud, I buy .

most to .

realize .

to .

get cuckoos.

Yes, coco, the that had to become a part of my vocabulary for a while. But the and how that may have helped elect donal truck, for example.

And and this is one of those stories as well where left partners were crude into the check canary by his lawyer who he shares with the the then president of the united states that will trump and um i'm reminded of of when George of you bush a nominated Harry admires in the supreme court because he was the closest lawyer to his office and and this was kind of a similar thing really is like, who do I know who's ukrainian who is morally dubious and would be willing to do just about anything we say and right you have to remember that live and eagles in to this world was a cynical one. IT was a financial motive level was not political. He was not registered to vote.

He didn't even vote in twenty sixteen as he financially assisted uh candidate uh trump and so that that was why he initially got involved. Once he got involved, he really thought he was trumps plummer. He real, he was a true belief. Or like some of my friends started miami who got who got mixed up with the doing the wrong things for what they felt with the right reasons. I think I think love is one of those characters.

right? But at one point, part is said he could relate to trump because he recognize them as a new york costlier. You know how many people think of that? But, uh, is Donald term also a quainted sal floor? And this is kind of both. And what characteristics does he share? Uh, because ultimately the character that in the center, this is Donald trump ABS, even though he's not spoken to, you hear from him so what characters is as he share them with either new york mobsters or florida drug king pai N.

I think, yeah, a lot of people flippantly referred to Donald d trump is a conman. But remember, kon is short for confidence. I don't believe that he exudes or instals much confidence.

Quite the contrary. I think everybody knows, including his supporters, that he is often lying all the time about everything. That's not what a combin does.

H, so he is much more A A kin to a religious charleton who is exploiting people of faith or a cold leader. And that's what live fell into. He fell into what he was, the term that he coins.

I was culturing zed, and then subsequently decus t ized love doesn't know. He made up that word, but he made up that word. And yet, IT makes perfect, perfect sense.

And I think that what I do, we say that l as where you go and you want to be somebody work is where you go and you are somebody and mienne where you go when you want to be somebody else. It's always been a Sunny place for shady people and live partners took that road and loan to hold unal. Trump t before him took that out as well and settled in the in marathi, where he found the town.

This is what happens when people move from sand from cisco. We saw this in the pandemic. And chicago and new york to miami, they're not coming there because because it's they want to contribute to community or be a part of something that they think is Better. It's because .

they couldn't buy the government they wanted in the places is .

so I think that the on the political side of IT, the I think part of the cult feeling is that he's offering something that is not politics. He's saying if I am in charge, then politics is over and instead we will have I mean, if you're jd events, you put IT really slickly and you say we will have common sense. If you're Donald trump, you say in your meaning, way alone can fix IT.

You won't have to vote anymore. You won't have to think about these things anymore. Once and for all, we will have vanquish our enemy. So he's .

offering this transcendence and a little here.

we long right. I mean, that kind of thing of monarch. I mean, there's a reason that his supporters joke around that.

You know, they can't wait for barren. They can't wait for maybe don juniors and gonna the right one. Certainly not going to be eric, but there are only six, four, eight ready for him.

I mean, they wanted to be. They want politics to be over and just to be in the hands of the strong man. And that's a that's a cross over, I think, between the sort of messianic religious and .

messianic c political which in in the documentary in the way that level looked up to trump, in a way that was almost up religious, you know, the way that smiles that he did IT wasn't just for, uh, a jacana Y, I think IT was something else that was going on. So, uh, we know he started on this documentation. Let's about lives origin story right to you, for us.

Where do you grow up? How do you come in the world? How do you get to to trump? And what was he doing?

He had nothing to do with politics at all. He came over to this country, lived in brooklin. His father was involved.

His family was involved as associates were involved in, as he puts at russian organized crime. He was not going to school, not hold working a Normal job. He was hauling cash around for .

an bag man.

He was a bad man for the organize crime. And he was super cute, but he was a bad guy. Any went from there into boil room penny stock fraud um which was very lucrative for him and also the law hot on his heels the whole time in the places that he was working at, kept getting shut down um he went back to the former soviet union and did import export which you know every red flag in the world um he buys on his mission admission said that you know he was he was no he made good friends with this guy eager and ears one of ego's business was called mafia wave that was a night club like this not a very above guy he gets goes end up in florida doing the same boiler room penny stock fraud d stuff um and starts having um among other things, his personal financial disasters start to sort of sticking to him and that leads to a very interesting and important part of the story is told him the this great hate an american lawyer um who's the cutis little buggs bt in the world the tony. Means of basically attaching himself to him and finding love and documenting loves financial life in a way IT to try to collect for one of his debts um and that ends up being important in terms of building a the feed, ultimately building .

a case and that brings him down it's a totally separate case. Trump now right he meets trump just as as how gets league so a weak moment song with life and he warned as one to the inner circle um really is IT possible because robots are abandoning trump the after the table or or as people know you can buy your way in a friendship with trump but just he's very cheap but he comes cheap c elon mask for examples it's not that much money he's giving him um of the money he's got so talk a little bit about how he got in there because you know all manner of you is happening with in new york all manner of people .

going to show up with the check and warm their way into these circles and and hearing that the mayor is getting indeed and IT is not ah yeah so I you hit on the hand which is that love been having fled soviet ukraine in his childhood, od with his family, of course, had innate skepticism of government. They did not trust government. They created their own government.

As he explains that in little odessa, brighton beach brooklin russian organised, bribed as how he as Rachel said, ultimately described IT and so he believed that government like everything else in life was transactional and so his plan was to by his way into power um and many politicians are very simply for sale and Donald trump was no different particularly at that very sensitive time late in the twenty sixteen election when many from his party were abandoning him and love became a part of a very small for tarnation of wealthy a bordier palm beach its neighbors of Donald trump at morale go who became part of the anteros and that um first fund raiser that love went to I think donated fifty thousand dollars to a personally from himself this is before egor was involved with him again and he had a moment with dannel trump there at this gorgeous palatial nine figures state in palm beach waterfront where there was nobody else there really he was a very small group and so I ve had a real access and was doing A Q A trump as you I Q. I and leve hijacked which he is want to do and and they talked for, like a half hour, the two of them and everybody was kind of like, but what is what is IT that this what is happening here? Everyone kind of witness this romance, uh, this me cute budding, uh, there.

And his wife spana recognized that. And other people, in fact, that was the first time he ever met rudy Juliana. And people were like, okay, well, this guy is not only a source of money, but he seems to have a report with trump that was right, special.

and you need, which is critical, which is critical. Now, in four of politics is most too bit hustlers can warm their way into the ashlands of power. He was close to also run a sync tis um as long as as there's money to donate, where is this Flora problem? Republic lan problem? How do you look at? Because IT is kind of astonishing how close he got so quickly. Yeah.

I mean, it's it's maybe a florida story, but it's not a florida problem. I mean, he's also you know his his relationship with Kevin mcArthur, relationship with pete sessions, his relationship with the years is the relationship you is all it's all of these guys. And they had ended up on the republican side of the lecture because that's where they thought that there fifty thousand dollars checks their donations.

We're going to buy them the influence they needed to run a few different business ideas that they had, one involving an energy company in ukraine. Oh, where did that idea come from? A one involving a the marijuana business, one involved.

They had, they had this idea that if they could buy themselves the right friends, which they they felt among the republican politicians they were meeting, IT was an open door for that. Then they could get these, they could get the business still that they needed, you know, former soviet union style. And there was nothing that happened once they started doing that, once they started writing those checks. There was nothing that happened in republican politics that that distributes them of that knowledge.

They believe that IT was working right. And IT was a Daisy chain, a busy chain of info, and says they moved up to change. So he then on the first in basis with trump l world, and he is not doing this own money to because doing money IT comes from .

eager IT starts with his own money, but IT ends up being ea's money when .

it's big numbers. E is money who has maffei ray who has more sort of dirty money essentially.

So he's on a first name basis with these trump people and know who's who um and he is business partner slash complex ear uh got invited to private in with trump hosted which is a wonderful section of the documentary by amErica for super pack committing a million dollars to the pack um and eager somehow secretly videotape the dinner which must have been thrilled ling for you, Billy, is that documentary filmmaker ah how did they how often did they video tape encounters and and do IT without getting caught and why? Why would be selfish? I can see. But this was something very different because and had that we're similar ude of having a phone that you're moving around trying not to be seen.

This is the wonderful advantage of kind of a post modern documentary filmmaking in to a true crime film making, which is that the criminals are now documenting their crimes in real time, which is extremely helpful when IT comes time to make the documentary, because, of course, they have their own beer and love. And as Rachel had documented, everything there were, the text messages are most copious.

why? Why was he documented the video? what? What caused him to do that?

Oh, I think a IT was ego more than anything. IT was, as you said, the self fee, the addiction to cell e IT was the, uh, proxy to power was the pride of IT level was posting an eager onto social media, not that video, for example, but the cells es with all of these, all of mogul world, really. And he was impressing upon the uh russian, ukrainian community that he had access and that he and he had an.

let me show you this right? Yeah he gave them access .

to money in financing. That's how egor found his way back to him and was literally financing every element of his lifestyle at that point.

And what IT also showed us, how ignorant jump as as you say, let's play some of the film. We're going to hear a sound of this video that live sea quoted, plus commentary, first truck react with amazing when he finds out ukraine has oil, and then they talk about the american best in ukraine. Let's listen to the clip.

When tom saw us, he greeted us like he always greeted us by saying my guys to me. And eager, he secretly recorded the whole thing. None of the sun topic changes to ukraine, me being me.

I got into the conversation. They love you though. I realized a trump has no idea about ukraine.

Russia 有 这个 吗？ The idea, the number one year. So are coming to the event. I heard all these stories about what was going on with the ukrainian ambassage and that how he was in our sorrow plant and how he was part of the clinton regime. The first thing that came out my mouth, as I said, the biggest problem there, I think, is we got given to the ambassador, and he still laughed .

over from the clinical iraq, where you.

i'm repeating gossip, I have no idea, have no facts, no vending. He is basically walk around telling, but wait, he's gonna a peach. He got angry. All of the sun turned around to one of visit and said, get o get, take IT was silence. The table looked each other.

Nobody know to do so. No wedding, just hearing from love, just in a very mobster fashion. So it's a window into his ignorance and decision making process at the same time of tough guy kind of thing. Rachel, like you reflect on that exchange because IT was this is a decision making by one of the last person who told him something d had no wedding. He just did IT largely because he was hurt by the fact that maybe he did something to him.

I think the thing to me that is amazing about that exchange, especially you hear love sort of narrow and say, i'm just repeat in gossip or where is the hearing gossip that more of one of which is bad mari, of one of which is a esteemed career U. S. Diplomats who's very skilled, who's working in a country that is an important ally to us that has been invaded by russia.

That has it's it's a fledged democracy. It's trying to defeat its corrupt and sort of criminal in circle past and become a nado candidate, become a western focused european based um alignment. And so she's it's a sensitive country. She's a very skilled diplomat and he is doing the .

right things for a career diploma.

Rea, of course, who are loves contacts in ukraine from whom he is getting, from whom he he's getting dirt made up stuff that's not true about your biden and hunter by right he's getting stuff from bad guys in ukraine and bad guys in ukraine. Understandable ably would want a career stand up U S. Straight arrow diplomat like that out of there theyd much prefer to have you some trump world prony or or nobody, or somebody who wasn't going to be in their way. And so his in circles where, yeah, you'd want somebody who represented straight up american good governance out of the way he conveys that to trump and trump instantly with no vetting, with not even understanding how to spell ukrainy, it's like.

oh yes, tell us, us know they make oil. Yeah.

we should real use you. My mobster lucky says that we should get rid of america's chief diplomat in the region. Sure, sure. We do I make the the thing about corruption is that IT not only says something important about the politician who is being corrupted, IT also allows the person who is corrupting, the politician who is engaged in correct behavior with them, to become a big maker, right? And so you empower the worst people in the world by giving them access to people with lots of power. And so love then becomes a big in terms of ukraine and sway because he's got corrupt access to trump through his truck.

And just suggesting things that love becomes first own friends of truth. Attorney, the former mayor of new xc. Really, Juliana so Juliane as leve and his a body eager to go to ukraine.

I look for jet one hundred hundred. And he jumped at the chance. So bring them to details, explain that this is not how people Normally conduct for an affairs for the united states of america. correct?

The this is the reality show foreign policy of a reality show president. That's that's what this is an as evidence by that audio recording is well that this is how the worst of what you think was going on in the trump administration was happening. And even worse than that, the way business was being conducted. Spatola lev's wife makes the point very clearly in the documentary that had this been a hillery clink administration of a obama administration of geoeye ministration.

And yes.

he says, Normal people, I think, is what he says. Any Normal person would not have had anyone like love within five thousand miles of the of the White house, let alone the president and of the united states. And is private attorney who is who is being retained for the purpose of maintaining a tourney client privilege between really is very small collection of clients, Donald trump, eleven equal.

And so a this turns into this kind of caper. That's exactly what this this is all the dinner power phrase. John bolton, rudie Julianne's drug dealer. However, you want to refer to what was going on a there I was in a different context, but I think IT IT applies to .

this scenario as well. Well, freezing diplomacy after the site, right by .

incomplete people. France is very polite and .

then this and it's not just that it's stupid or incompetent or unprofessional, embarrassing.

It's which IT is all of IT is and hilarious all which is but it's so russia yeah I mean, what happens is that russia, as love comes to realize every single person who fed them what they were asking to be fed, which was suppose that dirt on joe biden and hunter biden was connected to russia and russian intelligence because you go over there and you say, hey, i'm looking for this thing that i'll help trump and I you know and you know me through our organized crime connections and i'll this up and so the crimson in which has which you know has made a decade long project of doing everything that can to help down all trump um and you know to try to dismantle the U. S. System of government. They see the flood gates are open and then they .

fill them right. Mark mark, essentially Marks are not the are getting on the very incompetent comment actually but that's about fat luna who is not incompetent. He's lives a third of the star of the documentary, and sorry, was like, really jumps out.

SHE is also causes of baby mom SHE puts IT SHE told that this is a terrible idea. This is her just staying for her husband in a loving way was really what was so charming. He was charming, smart.

Uh, the only person who seems to have common sense talk about her and why he was unable to persuade. B, I don't know what he was doing there. Like I was like, what are you married to this guy for?

Kind of talk a little bit about that. Billy first. And Rachel.

yeah, I think you're right. I think he steals the show. And one of my favorite tweet, I think there was multiple tweet who arrived at this conclusion having watched the documentary, which is the moral of the story, is had he listened to his wife, none of this would have happened here, which really, really is the moral of the story.

I think you will dare the very SHE also her family fled the soviet and ukrainian. You and um and he has a very traditional view of marriage. How else to explain the fact that they're still married?

Yeah else I want you to explain that what of you?

Yeah he certainly has done everything he possibly could to alienate her and their .

children and his his entire family .

family and the power going to his head. The weight was the lord knows what was happening a in ukraine and vienna, paris and israel and everywhere they were going on behalf .

of really Julia and lord knows .

I think we all know but hi and and I think that that that sense of tradition also extended to to uh lives kind of patriarchical attitude as well and so he was like, no, I know best and i'm doing things for this family and i'm doing things for this country and i'm bringing us pride and i'm bringing us money and I think that he just he was unreliable at there's a moment where satanas says, like, oh, we're not getting him back people when he was kind of relying what was occurring back in those in those last years of of love ah so I what I don't know is how they endured.

I don't when I say no, I know, I just don't quite understand, be perfectly honest. But he was lost. His family didn't. There was a timing which his family didn't matter to him. And I think he discovered, as many people do in a cell you blocked off in the world, that maybe, maybe his family was the most important thing, after all.

because they do throw a caution to the wind with eager. And he heads off to his house, to ukraine to find anything that can slam job in with. And hunter is a perfect mark in that regards on the board of, but is about one of the largest energy producers in ukraine.

I don't know if you heard, but ukraine does oil Donald trump told me, well, biden was acting as, uh, the obama administration intent en in ukraine. They never found any evidence and no one ever has. But is IT fair to say, uh, we should expect more from political families.

It's not corret necessary, but is IT unethical for hunter to have been there either one of you, the sun of vice, present to take a high paying, no show job, but a huge energy producer from a country in his father's foreign policy portfolio. IT certainly, IT certainly opens the binds up to that either one. Billy.

I hate to both sides this, or say that everybody does IT. Yeah, certainly the families, extended families, friends of people and power trade on their a access and trade on their name wherever possible. I think that what I believe that what we saw during the trumpet administration was unprecedented the grifters and girls that came out of the woodwork because they recognize perhaps like left did a fellow new york costar as he put IT, that there was going to be a uniquely permissive environment, uh in which they could exploit um whether IT was the public trough or the private trough by a by leveraging their access to the public of but everybody seemed to get IT on IT that includes trumps entire family that includes his he is sun in law, certainly and that includes characters like live in eager, who who were able to to get closer to this present that anybody ever couldn't. Interestingly, leve made the point that rudy Juliane did not get paid by Donald d truck. And that was in classic trump style because trump was like, well, I know you're going out there and selling your access to me or trading on my name to get other clients and and lobby clients and legal clients.

So I should be getting .

a piece of what you are getting from them.

I should. I should. A vig. The monster is g .

but I was going to say that I was going to say vig but I let you say IT yes, and but that was the attitude I know you're exploiting me, I should be exploiting. But so that's how you're getting paid, rudy. You're getting paid from those other people who are only hiring you because of the relationship .

access and question. Certainly built up a big investment portfolio with a lot of foreign he's really smart while .

he's serving in the White house, katar comes in and bails out his family real estate firm from the terrible building, terrible purchase decision. And while he's in the White house, he sets up his a new investment firm which gets two billion dollars from sovereign alth friends and other countries. And then turns out years later, just reported in the near times recently, it's paid paid no fees.

So just the way things are so but hunter does the same thing.

Unter but unter biden was not in the White house. I think it's important to make that distinction. The jarred cushier was in the White house and was unqualified for a security clearance. But but that was overriding by his father in law, the president, and and he was able to trade on that. I think that's a big difference between hundred biden and some of these other characters.

Still not good. So I would say not good to to be in the did put his family in an awkward position. I would say the very terrible.

I think I think he would tell you.

That in a minute.

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Go to a miro dot com to find out how spell mio dot com. So Rachel love any girl supposed to find dirt on hunter by new puts himself in the harm's way. He definitely does. They're also parting IT up, running up huge bills at strip clubs. So many pictures of strip clubs.

Does the state department know what they are doing? Can they do anything after all the security state mike pompeo, A A very you know not a guy, I would see IT a strip club necessarily um so what do they know what they're are up to? Does he should be running for ren policies like campo in his the people that work for .

him yeah and technically there's a law against american citizens doing foreign policy in ways that are contrary to the interests of the U S. Um IT does seem like the state department was aware that this was going on in part because there's evidence that they followed levene gorn, rudy around and cleaned up after them.

So whenever they would take a meeting with somebody in the ukrainian government or somebody in ukrainian intelligence or whoever IT was, they were trying to get this um this the scheme pulled off with then the U. S. State department, the actual U.

S. Government would follow up and say whatever they told judges, please don't do IT um and so they created um a perception among powerful people abroad that the U. S.

Had a real government and also a shadow government that's creating a dilema for people who are trying to get the U. S. Government to do something. While do I talk to the content with the guys with the open shirts on the gold chains because they seem to .

think that they're speaking that's really Julian.

and they seem to have the president on speed dial. Or do I talk to these beer crate s who do not have names anybody has heard of, who don't have a relationship with the president, and who just seem to have the official in promoter of the U. S.

government. But maybe that doesn't meaningly think anymore. I mean, the day image that they did us in our relations with other country's sensitive allies is still resonating.

So a zelenski gets elected to president. Julian tells lab to meet with zeeland. skii.

incredible. The woman automate. And he wants mike penis in auguries. He wants military. He has to announce investigation to berries man and hunter biden. This is really one of most compelling parts, the film, because you realize how ridiculous this entire thing is that is occupied.

So much of our talk, dollars and attention and everything else, talk a little bit about the ziller ski a Billy and and and then he blows that and he gar off and um and then truck takes things in his own hand. So talk about this part of IT because that was the most astonishing. That was a paper place moment. You know, that's a nice business you got there. Hate to lose that kind of thing.

So important to note that because politically conscious people are aware of the so called perfect phone call, as dd trudged ed IT that he had a flat mere solicit in the wake of all of this episode that you are asking me about now.

But zein skii was the second successive ukrainian president that trump and rudy, through eleven eager, attempted to, I don't want to call IT to shake down because versand KO was not IT was more of a near to, is this favor in exchange for access to to trump in the White house? And funny enough, poor shanky left in lead space live, got a meeting with the former president of ukraine, prior tissues and ice A, A predecessor. And he laughed, legs space, because he had been the way he said was screwed hyda dd trump on some coal deal that he was forced into overpaying for coal from some, cancelling your company the way he tells IT. And he never got the broker that that from at boston who goes, I am not doing this again, but if you want to talk to go, our prosecutor general or something, maybe we can do something for you and announced this fake investigation into john hunter bid. Now what happens with zilli sky, to his credit, is he's now the president elect at this time of ukraine.

And he, you know he's trying to turn the page on what was ortega notoriously corrupt time in the history of ukraine and a tenuous ous relationship that they had with their with the world which was very damaging to their their conflict with russia, which really started in two thousand fourteen um and even though we think of IT is a more recent event that russia had occupied part of ukraine for for now a decade basically and so he's looking to improve relations with the world and as lib what's IT where they're claiming we're fighting corruption while attempting to corrupt them to the max remarkably, in his linski is credit under remarkable direst he does not entertain this and eleven hindsight realizes that zelenski, who we thought was was corrupt and corrupt ball was actually not as corrupt certainly as rudy, Julian, ian, Donald trump war and in fact, as he puts IT in classic mob terms, was a stand up guy. And amazingly, the perfect phone cause is, as a result, in classic again mob session, the boss going, I sent you guys to do this and you screwed the holding up, and now I got a step in and do IT myself. And that's which from does on that phone call.

Yeah, the nice, nice accent. yeah. On the phone call, this is where kernal vda turned a man.

no. IT was good turn. Al veda, who is working for the nsc, blows the whistle on the call.

We know how the story and trumps gets impeached, uh, not convicted. Rachel. Uh, levy was a lot from testifying the impeachment.

What happened there? Do you think that testing would have made any difference? I doubt IT.

But yeah I mean, now that we know that that was the first of two impeachments and we know how they both how they both went down and I don't think that republicans in congress, whatever, going to um use the impeached ment process to significantly discipline trump no matter what. So I I don't know I mean, maybe him testifying life would have made a difference. That said, the people who did testify life, we're stunning.

I mean, hearing from the story of one of the hearing from kernel vin min, I mean, member that's curl vin man, giving that indelible testimony about how his father said, no in america, bad things i'm gonna to do. You can speak the truth here. And then then, as soon as the impeachment effort fails, not only coronal women, but his twin brother, they both get frog marched out of the White house and use their jobs.

And so, yeah, bad things do happen to you when crooks run the U. S. Government IT IT turns out that when the U. S. Government fails and is taken over by what seems more like a small time, sort of too bit comic mob Operation, a bad things happen. So the the impeachment is important because IT was a fact finding exercise and documented so much of what happens.

But I think the really damming thing about IT is to know that no criminal charges, no criminal investigation, ever followed the factual revelations of the impeachment process. All of this stuff was proven. I mean, we've just made a film showing the receipts, all of the stuff and rod Julian, I was never prosecuted as a foreign agent. He very clearly was a foreign agent. And among all the other crimes that we saw that we have full record of um and that is that a function of the corruption of the justice department during .

trust presidency will be back in a minute.

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Now it's time for yours. Let's play IT. This is an apple bump of the atlantic. Thanks, region. And thanks, Billy, for this really fascinating film. Tell me what you think you learned more broadly about the relationship between and maybe the parities between .

trump world, the business community that trump lived and worked in, and the business community of russia, of moscow, the world's surrounding putin, what did they have in common? What did they learn from one another, and and maybe what were they trying to accomplish together? Oh and apple but is so smart that's a good question.

So Rachel.

well, i'm not an expert in trumps uh early business stuff because I just find IT IT just feels repetitive and salacious and it's all infected by the kind of press that he got as he was coming up in new york real estate which was so gradually and tabloid I just I get IT makes me not just so but I do what you what you mean from the way that he came up their business is that um you know it's that that might makes right that IT doesn't matter if IT was illegal or you were not allowed to do IT, you have done IT.

And then when you go on and move on other things, who's going to hold you to account for having done IT if you were so brushed ed to do in the first place that shows you can a sort of um might makes right thing. And the know when trump was running for office, running for presidency and simultaneously secretly signing a letter of intent to build trump tower moscow while saying, I have no business interest in moscow. I think it's the same sort of thought.

Yeah, i'm not supposed to be doing this. I'm going to lie about this because IT, clearly, I recognize I should lie about IT because this looks really bad. But what are you gonna stop me.

Me being willing to do IT shows that i'm willing to break the laws, which shows that the laws are not applicable to me. And so I thought it's kind of a it's a chAllenge to it's a chAllenge to governments because they're so often, right. I mean, if you gain power through illegal means, it's really hard than to say that the law should constrain you when you're in power.

But that's the chAllenge to the U. S. System right now is to to take somebody and say, yeah no, no matter what you've done ultimately the system stronger than you.

What about you, Billy?

I'm i'm reminded of some things that love is said on the on the the the tour on the trail, if you will, in the Q N A because I think of the um the conversation of democratic back sliding and looking at button or a fidel castro or any kind of budding dictatorship and IT very often IT begins with, if not checks and baLances certainly colleagues some partnerships and relationships that that h that that baLance out the the potential future autocrat and um love makes the point that as wild and reality show like is the trump administration part one seemed there were checking baLances there were some statesmen that my pm pale for whatever you may think of him did attempt to deter a from worst instincts and you and did try to um for example slow walk or if not completely ignore the termination of the beach yeah and love makes the point that any of those people again for whatever you may think of a john belton they were there with some experience and wisdom to say no and or or played IT trust, ego and effort to discourage his worst instincts and and and commands and they're all gone now, and that's what lives says in a second trump s. Administration, who will be the secretary of state, mike flint, who will be the attorney general, cash patel, these are the types of people who are left because everyone, either trump doesn't trust them because they wouldn't listen to his every order to, or nobody wants to be associated with this man and any future administration, right?

So let's talk about that. We're a month away the election. Except for this documentation. Nobody seems to member a care about what he did here. They're right IT didn't come up in the debate.

Pollsters don't act about is about IT it's it's a complete non issue and it's an astonishing story right to has this possible and and what is IT about daunt p allows them to commit breath taking acts of staggering corruption and going. I mean, his career started with racism, you know, keeping black people of apartments and IT. Just one thing on on top of the next. But this is an astonishing and dangerous documentation is funny as IT is, by the way, I applauded being funny because it's very funny but it's not you know, as kala hair said in many way, he is an unserious person, but he's very dangerous. Yeah and and that that was I was thinking of when I was watching this file.

I mean, if you want your you know crime to be forgotten, commit a bigger one next. I mean, I I think that essentially what happened is that is such a firehose of scandal.

I mean, the time about just within the last couple of months, the washington post publish a story about how there's very credible and compelling, like cinematically dramatic evidence that trump took a ten million dollar cash bribe from egypt, where the egyptian intelligence services took all of the U. S. Currency that they had in caro, put IT in a box and brought IT over to trump when he needed ten thousand dollars.

First campaign that wasn't even a one day story. Um trumpet hasn't he hasn't released his tax returns, neither his je events, by the way. Um he hasn't you know the the second impeachment was about the january six thing, but that this first impeachment about ukraine, it's just it's not memory hold. It's there. It's just that we can't sort of keep IT you know front front of mind with the latest scandalise worst thing that he said.

It's also, I think true that for his critics and for object observers of how dangerous he is um there is this thing there's a snagging voice in the back, your head, which says the people who like and want care and so because his accolades ts are more like accolades ts than voters because IT is this idea that he's this transcendent figure that's going to end politics and offer you some new form of future where he'd been evidently gives you all the things that you want. It's true that the scandal and the corruption and the petals and the incompetence does wash off them. I could stand in the middle fifth.

I have ventured, shoot somebody, not lose any voters. And so I think that that's a distant centive for people to cover IT until these stories, because they think the people who most love him won't care. I I think that you need to fight against that because I am an optimist about human redemption and I believe that people can be decode ized and I believe that if yes, even people who are in the depth of IT ah if you've given true information and trust them as human beings and believe in the human capabilities to the human spirit, people can come out the other side IT and so you have to find ways to keep telling these stories even with all the disincentives to do IT.

So so just go back just to end on ukraine because this is what this is about. It's it's a version of what trump behaves but is about ukraine drop might be like to president um last time you tried to cover and ski but ukraine's now in a hot war with russia trump recently mocked him at a campaign rally and ski um he then met with him at trump tower um he said he had a good relationship with both of him and putt that if he wins the world get resolved very quickly but he refused to support ukraine debate stage last month he was press multiple times but whether he wanted ukraine to win the war and he keeps him you one of the world to end um i'd love you both uh to reflect to russia wins the war because trump cuts off american military they would take a large vic ukraine it's going to end exactly the way love set IT up break in in a way what do you imagine a trump presents y will mean for ukraine? Having done this film before.

first I think that means really the end of ukraine as we know that I think that trump will variably put the linski in a position as, I mean, he's not the master negotiator that he has always claim to be. what? What does he do? He doesn't pay as contractors, or he leans on vulnerable people.

He punches down on on people who cannot necessarily defend themselves. He's a bully is one years, and so is button. And that's why I think he has a very good relationship with book.

And I think we know very clearly and I think he's he's been clear about where he would come down on that. This is very simple. If putin pulls out of ukraine, the war in ukraine is over. But that is not going to be necessarily an outcome acceptable to put in and certainly then won't be an outcome acceptable to trump in his future. Trump tower, moscow, whatever is that he know, he and Christia have lauded. So I think it's a it's not only a dreadful potential end for ukraine, it's a dreadfull potential end to our relationship with our allies as IT very nearly was the first time to the future of nato to any organizations and nations who have banded together to commit to peace since the second world war. I this and I don't think you have a the commander and chief in Donald trump who appreciates, understands or respects what IT means to have those relationships that aren't simply based on sheet downs and bullying .

which what who t want is a what he calls a multipolar world um and if trump he's selected president again, it'll be um the end of ukraine because he'll cut off to support to ukraine immediately and without a support from the united states um the western support for ukraine will not be enough to prop them up to be able to withstand what's going on with russia and that will mean that russia then occupies ukraine which is A A catti ropy for the people of ukraine IT will also mean the collapse of nato.

And one of the things that john bolton has been very explicit about, including recently on any apple bombs podcast, autocracy in america, is that trump had not just like ideation about ending nato. He got very close to just announcing that amErica was pulling out of IT. I don't think that he'll just get close.

He will pull out of nato, which will end nato um and without nato we will have a multipolar world, will have vladimir putin and and h shesha pink um free to invade ever they want and to reestablish more of an empire than their individual countries. It'll be lights out for a taiwan. It'll be lights out for ukraine.

And that little be lights out for the, you know, the countries that are renaming i'm sorry, model a, i'm sorry the di and the stone in poland, i'm sorry, you know, there's no reason to think of those things are stopping. Trump has said, know all they can do whatever the hell they want to our nature, all because he doesn't believe in nato. And so you end up with the united states as a sort of spanish american war era regional backwater um ignoring the rest of the world and dictators taking over in the united states becoming that kind of a country.

Um because that's what he admires. It's very, very dark and I think he wants to do IT very, very fast. And j events will be much Better at um accelerating that sort of a plane then mike pence ever could have been.

All right. Last quite. That's very dark, rick. Okay, so so first .

no yeah .

I data OK. So last question .

then .

first billion. And Rachel, how do you look at what you want your film to say now? Because he has to resonate today. How do you look at what you're doing? Yours you're not just telling a funny caper story, are you?

I think it's and regardless of what happens or irregardless, as we say in miami because because we're literate but I use IT, you're ironically regardless of what happens, I think that this is an important um historic document because as you said, he got memory hold like how are we not talking about the first impeachment of of the president of the united states who wasn't that impeached twice? How is that not a part of the history that we're discussing? Now I feel like we have contributed that to remind everyone about this episode and hopefully to change the conversation. As you've said, why are we not talking about this is absolutely insane, as racial is often points out. I'm sorry, watching peach men of trumpet is this IT gets very IT gets very confusing sometimes to keep up with the a firehose of fucker if you'll pardon my .

my term no let's find us a very good firehose so we reach less word um when you in a lot of you talk about heroes that show up small people with small moments the guy who knew all about, Frankly, for example, in in ultra or different people in prequel, prosecutors, journalists, things like that in this case, given the stakes and where we are, the bad guys seem to be winning, right? If he feels like that on some ways you know, in terms of what would you like the impact of this to be? What would you hope for IT?

I think the commonality for me in all of these stories that i've been telling, and some of them, as you sort of obscured things from history that i'm trying to bring back, some are characters from history that I think of resonance in terms of we're contending with today um is to shine a light on people who stand up against stuff like this, whether they were involved as bad guys in the first case and and we're repentent or whether they were crusaders against IT from the beginning, and to show what their tactics are to try to fix problems like this and to stand up against tyrant would be dictators like this and corruption and crooks like this.

But also to show that not one tactic usually works to take these guys down. Democracy is a recurrent thing in history and all over the world, because democrates are effective dictators, dictor are more the norm and democracy. But learning what IT takes to stand up to them, seeing what IT takes when near you, what it's cost people like that.

I mean, life is serve time in prison. Love almost lost. His family life has been destroyed by this. That I, I hope that that makes us recognize the ways in which we all can fight against this, to recognize the nobility of the people who do wage these fights.

I hope that these sort of stories encourage us to stand up for the people who wage these fights. I mean, people like stormy Daniels, people like of partners, people like the historical heroes that you mentioned from the ultra series, and step those people who paid a personal Price for, in some ways, saving this country. You're trying to save this country and we should have their back and we should support them and we should um recognized the way that they're personally destroyed by these things and try to back stop them.

So that doesn't happen. There hasn't been a civil war over these kinds of things. We're not having mass violence or having individual people have their lives destroyed for trying to do the right thing. And the rest of us can try to mitigate some of that damage by recognizing their heroes ism and standing up for them.

So love is a hero.

Love is hero. I think, I think love is a hustler and a bad guy who is also redeemed and redeemed. And his repentance is inspiring to me and makes me believe that anybody who is in the death of this can come out of IT.

Alright, will end on that note. Thank you for a wonderful film. Everyone should watch this. You can watch russia with love. Just for people to know. On abc dcom by logging in with their TV provider additional earrings on M, S, N, B, C to come.

Thank you so much, cara. Thank you. The great .

conversation are absolutely, I really appreciate. It's a wonderful film. Del, you make great films. You make films. Thank you.

On with kris whisker is produced by Christian caster, resell, kerry yok, jillie mires and meg bernie. Special thanks to kate gallego, kate forbes and kyan linch. Our engineers are ron fernando, erudite and lea Jackson.

And the music is by academics. If you're already flying the show, you're a slan a and trust me, he is the best part of this documentary. If not, take a veg and get out of here. Go wherever you listen a podd cast search for on with carers wish her and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Carry wish er for new york magazine, the box media podcast network and will be back on thursday with more.

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