Jeremy Strong, Alexander Skasgard and Succession Spin-Off Theories (Spoiler Alert)
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Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is The Eldest Boy. Just kidding. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naeem Araza. And The Eldest Boy is a joke from this week's episode of Succession on HBO, the finale. If you have not seen it, turn this podcast off. It's gonna be full of spoilers. Turn it off because we don't want to get emails from you yelling at us because we told you, we warned you in advance. No, we're okay getting emails yelling at you. No, I know. But not about spoilers. You can

Yeah, all about other things. Yes, sure. We're going to be doing an advice episode soon. So if you have any burning questions on career, love, life, tech, anything else that you'd like our thoughts on, please call 1-888-KARA-PLEASE. That's 1-888-KARA-PLEASE. Leave us a voicemail, ask us your questions, and we will get back to you early in the summer. We're better than the Roy's. We will give you better advice than them because they literally need a lot of

advice, as you will see in this episode. They do need a lot of advice. So this week's succession, Carrie, you've been sitting on this for a while. Yes, I have. It's been hard. And in fact, I was at a dinner party last night and like one person hadn't seen it. So the rest of us were like not able to discuss what we all wanted to discuss. Did you end the party early and throw an after party? No, I just like, you know what, if you...

You know, this was one of the biggest, most lauded endings of a series since, I guess, Sopranos or Game of Thrones. Biggest TV moment since who shot J.R. Well, it's actually not that big, actually, from a tech, I mean, yellow students. From a numbers perspective, yeah. Numbers, but for like a zeitgeist perspective. And literally, if you haven't watched it, don't go to dinner parties. I don't know.

what to say. I just don't. It was like such a bummer because like 10 people wanted to talk about it and this one person, I didn't get to it. There's a high overlap between dinner parties and succession watchers, even though the number might be small. That's true. So I knew that Mattson would be the big winner because the kids were not serious people. We had all the clues. There were a lot of clues, but it could have gone a lot of ways. You never know what Chiv was going to do. So yeah, I mean, everybody loses in this story. I think that's really was the heart of the situation. And

I don't think if they had won, they'd have won. I don't think Mattson's won. I think Tom's not won. I think nobody's won. Mattson kind of won. He's going to make a mess of it. You can see it just from his little hijinks at the end, jumping up and down. And everyone hates him already.

I don't know. I didn't see this disgusting brothers, Tom and Greg, playing such a big role in the finale. And Tom in particular, but Sophie Kim did. She's the editor-in-chief of the baby naming website, Nameberry. And she predicted the ending in a TikTok video last week.

Did you see that? I saw it, but it was wrong in its conception. Like a lot of people, I was watching all the predictions. They had the right answer, but the wrong way. They had all these weird conspiracy theories and naming things. It just wasn't true. But she had a good one. Tom Ampgan's last name was only one S off from Bill...

I'm going to get this wrong. Bill Whamgans, the only baseball player to ever turn a triple play in World Series. It's a conspiracy theory that you're spreading once more. It's not true. It's not about a conspiracy theory. It doesn't matter. She was wrong in how she— This is hardly dangerous. Just because you got the answer right doesn't mean you have the right reason for giving the answer. There was a lot of right answers with completely wrong answers.

ways to get there. So Frank Rich clarified to a writer at Slate that one of the writers on the show has a relative with the last name Wamsgans. Yeah. I already knew that, by the way, because within HBO, everyone was laughing at all these crazy theories. They weren't laughing, but they were like, what? Like, we kept trading them. Like, look at this one. And, you know, this is a group of just very straightforward writers, and there weren't Easter eggs all over the place. Well, Shiv played a critical role in this naming website, conspiracy theorist, as you want to call her, persuasionally

pointed out that Shiv means knife. And oh gosh, was she a knife. She's been knifing throughout the entire four seasons. So she's, she's been living. They're all knifers. They're all, they all knifed each other. And that's really the tragedy of this show, which is that this is a family that has so much means and,

of opportunity and they just can't be happy and they can't be nice to each other, except for brief periods of time. There has been more hugging and hand-holding in this season of Succession than all other three combined. I remember when you were first going off to interview the Succession people and I said to you, like, my big question is why does no one have sex on this show? Yeah, there isn't much sex this season.

There's a little bit, but not much. No, very, very little. And there's very little hugging. They're very bad at hugging, actually. That's one of the things, they're awkward. I've talked to all the people on the show about the awkwardness of their physical encounters. It's very... Yeah, there's no touching. They even have a hard time, yeah, they have a hard time even shaking hands. And I think when I talk with Alexander Skarsgård about that, because his character was very touchy and grabby and in your space, and they were not used to that. Yeah, he stood out.

For the finale, you interview Alexander Skarsgård, a.k.a. Mattson, one who told, I think it was Vanity Fair years ago, that he was helmed in by his own sexiness. He was being pigeonholed into certain roles. He's pretty sexy. He's done a great job. He's a great actor. Are you still a lesbian, Kara, or did he turn you? No, but he is. He's just clearly a very handsome man. Anyways, let's not objectify him. And also Jeremy Strong, a.k.a. Kendall Logan Roy. We learned it was Logan Roy.

But you did not interview Matthew McFadden, who plays Tom. I interviewed him for an hour in a previous episode. Yeah. We wanted to stick with the two principal people of who was going to take over. And we wanted to do both of them because there was a lot of people saying whoever I interviewed was the winner. People realized I interviewed, for some reason, Jeremy Strong and thought, oh, he's the winner because Kara's interviewing him. But we wanted to do both of them because that was the two twin subcontractors.

sides, essentially. I was a little gutted you didn't interview Sarah Snick on this episode. You've interviewed her before, who plays Shiv. Yeah, we don't go back to do them. No, sorry. But she was the hinge for this episode. She's riding high, then she gets screwed by Matson, and she's almost served up

She almost served up her husband, by the way. She gave him his role of saying that he sucks the biggest dick in the room, which Mattson was basically salivating because he wanted a sycophant, which is your point about all these powerful people. Yeah, he definitely is a pain sponge was the expression they use. And I think that was a great one. It was a wonderful expression, is that he was able to...

do whatever it took just to, there's a lot of people in business like him, like I'm going to say. And so he was that person who would do that. And Madsen was not interested in Shiv's ideas. And also, you know, this idea of that Shiv could only realize herself through other men, you know, whether it was her father, her brother or her husband. And in the end, she, I think she felt like she could manipulate her husband the most and

compared to her brother who had shown, as Nell Scoville noted, great disrespect for her. Yes. A lot of misogyny comes out in this episode. The I'm the oldest boy line from Kendall, the Matson locker room chat with Tom. Which he's not, by the way. He's not the oldest boy. Yeah, Connor is. Exactly. It's disrespectful.

To women and to Connor. Poor Connor. He's like the sweetest of them all. Yeah, they only all end up with billions, so I feel terrible for all of them. Well, there is no season five, but that last scene with Shiv begrudgingly giving Tom her hand seemed like ripe fodder for a spinoff.

Yeah, it feels like there's a movie. It feels like there's a movie coming. And I had heard that within different circles and stuff. So it makes sense. It set it up for a possible movie. And that would be interesting of what happens to them and what they do. And how much Shiv is able to manipulate. As you said, it's all through other men. But her having Tom's child will make her all the more powerful in Tom's life. Yeah, Tom's life, for sure. But he doesn't have that much power, honestly. He's just a

Functionary. But she also knows something about Mattson, his blood sending. She knows a lot. She can knife him, too. Yeah. Because she's Shiv. But I never thought Shiv would be to succession as Joey was to friends. I thought that was more like cousin crack. No.

No, I think she was very... Cousin Greg spinoff. Yeah, we'll see where it goes. I don't know if there'll be a spinoff. I think there might be a movie. And it would be great. These are great writers. But, you know, this one of the things that I have to say is I've worked on a lot of different things. And this particular group of people were really quite close. You know, you've been on sex and stuff like that. I felt like that you could see it in the social media, all of them together watching. And one of the great parts about this was every single...

got a moment in this show at the end, especially throughout the season and in the end. And so they were really, even if they're, whether it's Carolina or Frank or Carl. Yeah. And Colin, Colin the bodyguard even was really touching. So I thought that was, that's hard to do in movies and TV. And I think they did a great job. It's hard to write all that in. And cousin Greg plays a pivotal role with his translation. His translator. Gosh.

Swedish to English. The baby girl of the internet is a secret genius. Yeah. But they did do a beautiful job. And I know some people who work on Succession, also behind the scenes, writers and assistant directors, etc. And they are all treated part of the family. They go out on these big luxury, you know, luxury shows. We've got to get on this crew, by the way. I'm like, do you need a gaffer? Yeah, we'll see if more future shows will have this much money. You could see it was all on screen. And so HBO is owned by Warner Discovery, and they're cutting.

They're cutting. You mean Max? Max. Oh, yeah. I think George Conway had the best one. I was like, I've never watched this. I get Shiv, but who the hell is Max? Which I thought was funny. Yeah, Max, whatever. That was the only, I would say, negative thing is everybody was like, why do I have to download this fucking thing? What the hell is Max? Yes. You know, that was the negative note, which was a terrible decision by David Zasloff. I think everyone agrees.

But smart to do it on a timeline that everybody wanted the content. Because I did do it. It was obnoxious to do it. I know, but you were mad. You need to go separately delete your HBO app. That's right. You were irritated. And so good job when you're very happy to be and thrilled to be watching something irritate your users who are happy to be there. Anyways, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with the episode with Alexander Skarsgård and Jeremy Strong. Obviously, I want it to be me.

But I genuinely think anyone would say, anyone objectively would say, LA, my profile, experience, position, desire, public pronouncements, it's me. If we want to hold on to this company, for us, for my kids, for yours, it's me.

This is HBO's official Succession podcast. I'm Kara Swisher, and this week, everything ends. Guess who Kendall thinks it should be? It's gonna blow your fucking mind. Never had my plans ruined by a huge board meeting before. All right, wake up, zombies! Time to activate! Come on! Phones! I wanna see some fucking phones!

This week, we have a special two-part podcast to unpack the series finale of Succession because there's way too much to cover in one episode. So luckily, you get two. In part one, I am joined first by our new Swedish leader of Waystar, Alexander Skarsgård. And later, the incredible Jeremy Strong is back to discuss his character's ultimate fate and what Kendall really wanted all along. ♪

Later this week, part two, we'll have my extended conversation with director and executive producer Mark Mylod, who helped shepherd the perfect conclusion to this tragic family story. And I'll also be sharing my own closing thoughts about these kids who just didn't get hugged enough. This finale, titled With Open Eyes, was of course written by series creator Jesse Armstrong.

The episode starts with Kendall and Shiv at odds as they prepare for the board meeting that will decide Waystar's fate. Meanwhile, Roman is MIA. But in true Succession fashion, they soon meet up in a beautiful place. This time, it's their mom's house in the Caribbean.

Shiv learns that Matson has been playing her and isn't going to give her the top job, so she teams up with her brothers, and they agree to anoint Kendall as king. But of course, everything falls apart at the board meeting when Shiv can't bring herself to actually vote for Kendall, and she agrees to let the Gojo deal happen.

In the end, Tom is crowned CEO, Shiv is relegated to CEO's wife, Roman is alone at a bar sipping a martini, and Kendall stares at the Hudson River with his dad's security guard looming nearby. Nobody wins. Well, they all make a lot of money. How else could it have ended? You are bullshit. You're fucking bullshit. Man, I'm fucking bullshit. She's bullshit. It's all fucking nothing. Man, I'm telling you this because I know it, okay?

We're nothing. Now I get to the man who's been creating chaos all season. He's a chaos monkey, as they say in Silicon Valley, but maybe he's played the game the best out of everyone. We're joined now by the new owner of Waystar Gojo, Alexander Skarsgård, who plays tech billionaire Lucas Mattson. So happy to have you here, Elon.

I'm thrilled to be here, Kara. Thank you. Yeah. So your character came out on top. Congratulations. But I'd love to get an idea of who do you think you're playing here? Who have you gotten your inspiration from? And I'm not kidding about Elon. Well, I'd say that Lucas is kind of an amalgamation of a couple of different characters.

tech billionaires and some eccentric public figures out there. I've drawn inspiration from quite a few of them and I've tried to steer clear of playing a carbon copy of one. You mentioned Elon Musk. Of course, there's some inspiration there, but there's plenty of others out there that I've looked at and drawn some inspiration from, mostly in tech, but not necessarily only in the tech world. And what were you going for? What was the mood you were going for with this person?

Yeah, I wanted something playful. He's a character who clearly doesn't need more money. He's beyond wealthy and he's set for life and for millennia to come for his descendants. So I think he just loves the hustle and the deal, the process of getting in there and rolling up his sleeves and fighting for something most people said would be impossible.

And there's also something about Waystar Royco that's so delicious to Lucas because in his eyes, he's very much a self-made man. He's not from a legacy empire family. And there's something so deliciously juicy about taking down this family dynasty. So I think I wanted that to be a driving force for Lucas. And again, the excitement of shaking things up and

He sees himself, even though he's incredibly wealthy, as David versus Goliath here. It's beyond exciting to him to take this on and to try this, something that no one thought would be possible. He visualizes himself as a hand grenade, and he wants to get thrown into these...

banquet halls with senators and people in gray suits and just like shake things up and have fun and fuck with people. So it's like a prankster personality. It definitely is. But it also has a malevolent side to it. There's every now and then the darkness sort of comes over you, whether you're describing the blood thing. And even then I was like, is he lying? Is he not telling the truth? And I've had encounters like this.

Yeah, there is definitely some darkness to the character. I don't want to make him too frivolous and too happy-go-lucky and fun. I think that is part of who he is. It was important to keep something underneath. There's a sadness there. He touched on it briefly in season three when Roman comes to his villa in Lake Como, and it's this...

one of the most gorgeous villas you've ever seen. And he paid a ridiculous amount of money for this villa. And he tells Roman that he is stressing out because he doesn't know which bed to choose because he's, he now bought the most beautiful home and how the hell do you find the perfect bed for that perfect home? Right. So he ends up sleeping on a hard mattress on the floor, even though we can buy a fantastic bed and sleep well in it. But it's like, is it the best bed? And he's,

There was something so interesting about that character trait. Right. He doesn't seem to enjoy any of it at all. No. Like he's in these beautiful settings and he's, he could be sitting in a hovel really. Yeah. And it's also like when they go to this retreat, he looks out at the beautiful mountain range and he's like, yeah, it's, I guess I'm supposed to say that this is beautiful because that's what people say, but like, it doesn't deeply affect him. It doesn't deeply move him. He's got, I try to avoid,

putting him on the spectrum or playing, leaning into that. But there's definitely a hint of attention deficit disorder there. His mind is incredibly fast and wanders and you need to capture his attention within five seconds because if you don't succeed, then he's off thinking about something else. What was your first record when you learned that Lucas was going to win it all?

Well, I not assumed that I had an inclination that it might go in that direction because I didn't really see how the siblings would end up king or queen of it all. And when Jesse told me about the Tom of it all, I thought that was beautiful and really fascinating.

selfishly exciting because I love working with Matthew and I'm so excited to have a couple of more nice, meaty scenes with him. But also something tragic about, but in a way almost inevitable that the kids don't end up as the successor. He's filling big shoes in Logan, but they also got along, he and Logan. How do you think they're similar? I think Lucas respected Logan. He thought he was a brute and an asshole.

But someone who was unfiltered in the way Lucas also is, and I think he respected that. And the fact that he was a shark, that he would just go for it and go for the kill, and that he was –

I think Lucas saw himself in Logan in many ways and this obsession about the deal and making the deal. And it doesn't really matter if it's, we're talking about $5 or $5 billion. Like you always want to win. And he was savvy. He thought Logan was very worthy opponent. And I going into season four, there's also a bit of, there's an opening there that is exciting.

With a big man gone for Lucas, but it's also a bit disappointing, I think. He wanted to go up against this giant, and then he's left with the kids who are just not worthy. And they're clearly, in Lucas' eyes, only in this position because of birth, being the kids of Logan. So he was kind of setting up for this big showdown, and then it ends up being like,

He's fighting the featherweights and he's like, come on. Yeah, yeah. Talk about what's specifically Swedish about Mattson. Yeah, he keeps talking about

Being typically Swedish, but I think it's something – it's a card he likes to play when he goes up against neo-capitalists from the United States to be like, hey, I'm just a funny Swede. I believe in community and equality, but I have my doubts if he genuinely feels that way. He's definitely a hyper-capitalist.

Yes, no question. He's just like them. He's actually just like them in a global perspective. But he also, as I said, he has a unique physicality. He hunches over people, he jumps on furniture, he walks barefoot, he pees in front of Roman. How did you think about doing this? He invades space quite a bit. And I have had this issue with lots of tech billionaires. They're always doing yoga in front of me and downward facing dog. And it's a very invasive space thing. And when you say something, you're like, cut it out. They're like, what? What are you talking about? Yeah.

Yeah, it's unsettling and it can throw people off balance a bit, which could be in

intentional because it makes people insecure because you never know where he's coming from or what his agenda is. He's a big man, but if it's a negotiation, then one second he feels like he's your best friend and he's opening up and he's telling you deep, dark secrets. And the next, he feels hostile. And then he's your buddy again. And it's a way to manipulate someone and make someone insecure and unsettled in a way.

You came up, you wanted to do this? Was it written in the character? Or did you think this was a good way to make the other characters unsettled? I wanted Lucas to be a bit of a counterbalance to the Roy's. And visually, in terms of his aesthetic, his style, they are very monochromatic. And it's all very understated. It's expensive cardigans with no logos. And I wanted

Lucas to be more of a peacock and more eccentric and more out there. I wanted to instill that in his personality as well and his demeanor and his physicality. I wanted something to come in and be very different and disruptive and disturbing to the kids and to other people around him. Right. He doesn't actually do it with Logan. It was interesting. You didn't do it at all. He didn't because, again, there was a very different relationship. And it was also something that grew as we

went deeper into season four. And as I got to know Lucas a bit better, a lot of it was we came up with on the day towards the end of season three, when Logan and Roman comes to the villa, we were trying to figure out what Lucas would wear. And we had a couple of different options. And I wanted, again, something very casual because I thought it'd be interesting to

knowing that they would look immaculate. And this is one of the biggest media deals ever made. And I thought it'd be interesting if you look, he was very underdressed for that. We actually weren't able to find the perfect clothes for that scene. So we were looking the morning of,

And we found some casual stuff, but nothing that really felt great. So I asked Jonathan Schwartz, the assistant costume designer. I was like, well, the stuff that I came to set wearing is very casual. It's like an old worn t-shirt and...

plastic, like rubber slides. Should we try that? So I actually ended up wearing for that whole, both those scenes, basically what I came to sit with that morning. Oh, very nice. The silings of Alexander. Are you similar to Mattson at all? Are you similar to him? I have a little bit of the, some of that erratic nature, maybe occasionally a hard time

staying focused. Mattson is a version of myself, but like ramped up to 11. There's definitely stuff that I can, that I can recognize in myself. And he's an agent of chaos, but it's also, there's something vivacious and fun about like,

getting that close to the edge and staring into the abyss and feeling the excitement of that. And there's something about that that I can recognize. Again, not to the same level as Lucas, but there's a life force in that somehow that is quite exciting and thrilling. I bet. So speaking of thrilling, the relationship with Shiv has been developing all season. Your scene's really electric. What was your process like with Sarah Snook?

we found each other very, very quickly in terms of the way we collaborate on set. We would basically just cold read the scene in the makeup chair in the morning once or twice, especially if it's a longer with lots of banter back and forth. We just like run it a few times, but again, like cold read it with no emphasis or energy really. And then we would just hang out and,

have a cup of tea and talk about life. And then we'd save the rest for when the camera was rolling. And yeah, there was something quite exciting about that because she is such a phenomenal actor. And my job is very easy when I get to work with someone like Sarah because there's so much going on in her eyes. The nuances, the slight changes from one take to the next makes it incredibly engaging for myself. So I've really...

loved exploring that journey with Sarah. And it's such a lovely, interesting relationship because again, it's, they quickly open up to each other. He tells her very private stuff very early on. And then there's also that almost potentially some sexual tension, but we wanted it to leave some ambiguity there, but we didn't want it to, to be like, Ooh, sexual attraction here. They're going to get it on. It's like, we wanted it to be like,

slightly off. There's some tension there. Is it sexual? Is it not? But again, to do it in a subtle way. Do you think her pregnancy impacts how Madsen thought about her as a woman and a potential CEO? So you're just mad about that drawing, for example? No. He mentions it in Nine when she first brings up the idea, the suggestion of a U.S. CEO.

to placate Mencken. But I don't think that, no. And again, to your earlier question about him being Swedish, I think in Sweden you get maternity leave. So he's used to that. And I think he's worked a lot. I mean, his company is obviously based in Sweden. So he knows everything

I don't think that affects him at all. But he is affected by that picture. He said he isn't, but then you could see that he was. The puppet puppeteer is probably bothering him a bit more. Yeah. And there's nothing worse than being called a

a puppet that she's behind the curtain pulling the strings. Like, cause it's to him, it's the other way around. He's using her for specifically what he needs to make this deal happen and go through. And I think it's important for him that people know that, that he is the king. Yeah. He also picked off the weakest link really in a lot of ways. And we learn about why he won't pick him in a scene with Tom. That is gross boys being boys moment. Let's listen to this. We're a bit clickety clickety.

You know what I'm saying? Right. Like? A little bit. I want to fuck her on a little bit. And I think under, sorry to get weird, but like the right circumstances, I think she'd fuck me too.

Is this making you uncomfortable? I'm sorry if it's weird. No, no, we're men. Yeah. No, we're men. We're men, yeah. Of course, Tom will say anything. Is it weird that he's saying this to Shiv's husband, or why is he doing it here? Testing Tom, presumably. Yeah, it's incredibly weird. And, oh, I had such a lovely, lovely time shooting that scene. It's so... Tell me why. It's so well-written. It's so...

excruciatingly uncomfortable. It's, I mean, he's telling Tom that he wants to fuck his wife. And knowing that

He's holding this little nugget of gold in front of Tom's eyes going like, do you want this? Do you want this? And he knows that he can say in this situation, he can say anything because Tom so desperately wants this position. He knows that he can really lean into that awkwardness and explore it and have fun with it. And it's important for him to have a sycophant in that position. Someone who will be his little lapdog and do exactly what he needs. Tom is desperate.

proving himself worthy of that as an amazing sycophant by basically saying like, it's fine. It's fine. I get it. You want to fuck her. It's where men, I can deal with this. And now let's go party. Let's have a great time. Right. He is bothered, but he doesn't let it get to him. And you can see it in his eyes. Oh, it's very, very, very clear that he is. And Mattson knows that he is, but he gets the answer that he wants.

wants. It's not because he finds Shiv attractive that he doesn't think she can be the US CEO of the company. It's not about that. I mean, he sends frozen blood bricks to his employees. So he does weird shit and he's not afraid of things being, as he says, clickety-clickety.

And I think he, in a weird way, thrives on that weirdness, the madness of it all. So that's something he says in that moment, just to see how much of a well-trained lapdog he will be. They're fucking talented. But also, honestly, I'm not looking for a partner. I'm looking for a front man. Because we're going to cut shit close to the bone. We're going to get right fucking in there. It's going to get nasty. So I need...

a pain sponge when I'm under the hood doing what I love, you know? Sure. That's kind of what I'm after. So would that be a problem? No, man. I could do it. Logan Mark II. Only this time he's fucking sexy. Oh, dear. Pain sponge. And he's not sexy. I need a pain sponge. He got everything he wanted from Shiv and then tossed her aside. Tom is just another pain sponge, essentially, what he's looking for. Yeah. Yeah.

He is. There's a very small but quite a crucial moment in episode nine, right before the funeral in the church. It's with Shiv and Greg, and they ask where Tom is.

And Matson is standing with Shiv and Greg, and he overhears that Tom is at work. Again, it's just a moment of Matson registering that. Oh, he's a hard worker. He's not at the funeral of Logan Roy, the giant, because he's at work. The fact that he's incredibly loyal, as long as you're the top dog, he's loyal to you. And there's something about that that makes him the perfect fit.

And it's also a bit of a masochist. I mean, the term pain sponge is an unusual word, and it's beautifully written. And of course, he sends blood to Ebba. He's a bit of a sadist. So someone like Tom is a relationship because she's pushing back, of course. She's been pushing back. Yeah. And he says that he's not going to get any of that from Tom. His assessment of Tom is that he's

He's drawn to power and money like a fly to cow shit. And so he knows that he's going to stay in my orbit as long as I'm the son here. But what does he actually do, this son? Because he said he'd be under the hood doing what he loves to do, but Ebba says he's not even a real coder. So what does he do? Bullshit is what he does well, but what else does he do? I think that...

That's also up for debate whether he is a genius coder who came up with this code on his own and basically made that fortune from his own basement as a young tech guy. Or if Eva's version is more true where like, well, he got lucky. We handed him this and he ran with it and he took it to market. Potentially she has a point. She's also just been, when she says that in

Episode 7, she's also just been deeply insulted by Matson, where he's like, tries to get Greg to humiliate her and fire her in front of everyone. So...

There might be some truth to that, but there might also not be. He might be better than she gives him credit for in that moment. Right. Well, although it's complex, he's sort of playing this genius, as you said, playing this genius guy. You know, even in real life, people don't realize, for example, Elon Musk did not start Tesla. Other technical people did. But a lot of them were better at the business of it than the actual coding. Yeah. He might not be the genius coder that he is.

believes he is but he likes it like what it says to tom that he thinks he can get back under the hood and do more of that and come up with something else the next big cool thing whatever that would be right i think he's already a little bored he also realizes how easy it is he said it's about money and gossip money gossip and you know he gave it a go and he won and then he's like well i'm

I don't want to run this day to day in like the mundane, boring, like board meetings with people in gray suits. Like let Tom do that. And then he can go off and do crazy stuff, coding or keep sending blood breaks or find another adventure or whatever that would be. Well, let's talk about the end where he gets his wind to sight being a phony to some extent and his numbers in India. He's obviously a manipulator. He's a bit of a PT Barnum kind of character in the end.

Would he be better at the job than any of the Roys? Really? Well, we'll see. Or I guess we won't see because this was the fact. But he would be quite bored by the news of it all and the clogs of the machine. It's just like, that's not his thing. I think it was more about the acquisition. The fact that they came and they tried to take over his company and that he could suddenly have the leverage to

when the numbers looked better for him to flip it and basically consume them and become the bigger shark. So my final question for you, in episode two, Logan told his kids they are not serious people. Those words have been echoing through the whole season, really. I love you, but you're not serious people. Turns out he's right. I'm wondering, though, is Mattson a serious person? He's a clown.

But he's a serious clown. Serious clown. I think we'll leave it at that. Thank you so much, Alexander. I have to say, having known the people you were making an amalgamation of, you've done a beautiful job. Well, thank you so much, Carrie. I really, really appreciate hearing that. It means a lot. And it was a pleasure talking to you. Likewise. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Joining me now is Jeremy Strong, our very own Kendall Roy. Thanks for coming on our podcast, Jeremy. Thanks for having me. We really couldn't end the series without talking to you, and there's so much to get to here. But let's start at the beginning. What was your first reaction when you first read the script for the last show? I mean, I was gutted by it. I think I had a vague sense of the shape of things. You know, I'd spoken to Jesse before the season, and I was like,

It's one of those episodes for me that almost in miniature contain the whole arc of the series. Kendall goes, in a sense, Icarus flying as close to the sun as he possibly can. And we've seen this character attempt again and again to sort of summit this mountaintop and fall ass backwards down to the bottom of the lowest ravine. And so...

I think I felt that the journey through this episode was, you know, winding the bow back as far as it could possibly go to reach its final target, which is someone who has finally lost everything. He's lost his father, he's lost his morality, he's lost, in a sense, his soul, he's lost his brother and sister, he's lost his children, he's lost love.

And he's lost his ambition, which is a defining thing for him in his life. Which he trades everything for. Did you, as a person, Jeremy Strong, think he might win this time? Kendall really did. I think it came as a shock to him that he lost this time.

I needed to invest, I think, in what Kendall was holding on to and what Kendall was believing in. Of course, my job is to be right there in the trenches with him and fight his fight, I guess. And so until the moment when finally I go back into the boardroom and Frank says, you don't have it.

Jesse set up this incredible dichotomy this season. After my father died on the roof of that boat, he'd written this stage direction. Kendall finds himself, he's looking down towards the Statue of Liberty at this moment, the sharp tip of the spear of American history and this colossal loss that the worst thing has happened and the world is off its axis. And at the same time,

He's still there, and he doesn't know if he might be a wraith or a super being.

And this idea of the Wraith and the super being was something that I think was at play the rest of the season. And so episode 10 starts with Kendall, I think, surmounting his super being. He's in ascendancy. And when that finally fails and the full catastrophe is sort of upon him, then at the end, he is that Wraith walking through Battery Park and I think facing the end.

After four seasons, how do you prepare to say goodbye to those characters? What do you think about? Part of working on this, and for me, part of acting in general, is sort of clearing your mind entirely and trying to make yourself as much of an empty vessel as you can. So I'm not thinking about much at all, but I do feel a sense of loss. I mean, I've been so occupied with this and so come to a point of such conviction about Kendall Larson

and his needs and wants as if they were my own. And so it's hard to answer that question. There's a sense of merging and a sense of letting go, which I've done. You know, we finished a while ago now. But even, you know, I finally watched this two days ago, and it was painful to watch, and it's been reverberating with me. And I think the thing that Jesse did so brilliantly in this episode is

In a way, I think Kendall, you know, he becomes his father in a sense. He has the moment of no real person involved, which is what his father said to him on the yacht in Croatia about the cater waiter who died.

And at the time, it was a monstrous thing for Kendall to hear. And it sort of showed a heart of darkness, or at least a complete lack of a moral ethical core and a kind of terrible amorality. And when Kendall says, it didn't happen, I never got in the car, he's basically willing to cross any line

lines that are left. Which he does multiple times this season, especially around his own family. One of the things that was interesting when you're with this character, because of all the characters, it feels like it's you. And when I talked to Kieran, he kept saying, I'm not like this guy. I read, I have children. You know what I mean? And it's hard when people come up to him. It feels like this character has a lot of you in it, or perhaps not at all. I mean...

It's a hard question. It's a very amorphous thing. I believe in the kind of work where you have to give something as much density and weight and veracity as possible. And so I don't know how to do that without using parts of myself...

And in a way, you know, I remember Dustin Hoffman in an interview once talked about acting as confessing your deeper crimes. You know, crimes of the spirit and the conscience. And, you know, a lot of what we're exploring in this show is shadow stuff. So, no, I mean, my life is shadow.

Couldn't be more different. I mean, I'm wearing a hat that says books are magic from my local bookstore. And, you know, I also have kids and I'm very different from this character. But at work, I guess when I cross that Rubicon, Kendall is the only thing that matters. And it becomes a life and death struggle for me. It's interesting you mentioned Dustin Hoffman because he played so many very dark characters over different parts of his career. And then he played Tootsie. Do you ever imagine you'll be able to play Tootsie?

a funny character? Sure. You know, and I have done in the theater years ago. And it's really every role kind of demands different things of you. And what this role demanded was incredibly heavy. I mean, the title of the finale of each season comes from the John Berryman poem. Mm-hmm. And that's a poem that essentially says, let me get it right, but it's something that I've thought about since season one. Mm-hmm.

That there sat down a thing once on Henry's heart so heavy, and I'm paraphrasing, but after a thousand years, sleepless, weeping, Henry could not make good. And so...

Part of my job as an actor is to attempt to carry that weight, to put a thing that is so heavy that after a thousand years I cannot make good. And that's Kendall's journey. Well, they're all in some level of pain, aren't they? Of course. And that's, you know, the show is about a lot of things. And what I love about this episode in particular and the way we see New York City and the financial district and there's this amazing convergence of

that is incredibly difficult to pull off of collapsing empire and kind of a terminal state, you know, terminal decadence. There's that great Rolling Stone article about terminal decadence a few years ago and the dying of the light. And he's doing that

in a country about a country, but also about a character. Yeah, you definitely got the sadness at the heart of most of the people I cover in a lot of ways. Many of the people, too many of them. So a really special part of this finale is Kendall, Shiv, and Roman coming together at their mom's house. It was a really surprising and lovely scene. And there, they finally have a real heart-to-heart about who should be CEO. Let's listen to a minute of this. He fucking promised it to me. Promised. When I was seven.

He sat me down at the candy kitchen in Bridgehampton and he fucking promised it to me. Seven years old. Like, can you imagine? Yeah. Pics or it didn't happen. That was messed up. Like, he shouldn't have done that. No. He shouldn't have said that. I'm simply saying he said a lot of things and he said them to me first. Yeah, and he said it to me last.

Well, that's something. But you have an image of a seven-year-old getting promised a CEO job, which he said it's a bad thing for him to have done to him because he put that in his head, I guess. Does this memory change your understanding if Kendall did it at all?

Yeah, I mean, you know, Jesse and the writers had written a timeline for Kendall back when we started this. So I've always had a sense of his life, his whole life. This memory crystallized in a beautiful way in that moment. And we talked about where that might have happened. And, you know, that seemed like a place where that might have happened on Route 27 out in the Hamptons where all those kids go. But that moment of incongruity of this innocence of the candy kitchen happened.

And this moment where his father says, one day this will be yours. And that becoming the defining drive of his life. I remember reading in Chekhov's short stories, he writes, tell me what a person wants and I'll tell you who they are. And Kendall has always had this singularity of wanting. It's ultimately the tragedy, I think, of this show itself.

is in a sense Kendall's tragedy. It's the tragedy of everyone. But we followed him as a protagonist through these four seasons. But he doesn't even know what he wants. It was imposed upon him. No, it's like he doesn't even want it. I remember reading, one of the things I read early on was Andre Agassi's autobiography, Open, which is an incredible book. And he writes about what he called the pain of playing. You know, his father put this ball machine, I think called the dragon, I might be wrong, in

in their backyard in Las Vegas and just forced him to hit balls until he was blue in the face and he never actually wanted it. And I thought about that a lot and I think that is the tragedy that this was imposed upon him and it in a sense shaped and misshaped and deformed his life. He could never free himself from that objective.

When we first talked about the show, Adam McKay and Jesse Armstrong and I, we talked about Festin, the Thomas Vinterberg film about trauma.

That this is really about family trauma and legacy. In the Trojan horse of, you know, a show about legacy media. Right, and with a lot of cashmere and planes, but go ahead. Yeah, with a lot of cashmere and planes. But ultimately, it is about legacy media, but it's also about the legacy of damage and the legacy of trauma. And when those things have been scaled up in such a way that they have major repercussions in the world. I mean, I think episode eight for me

is in a sense a pinnacle of the writing because we see this, you know, for personal reasons in a way, make a decision that imperils our democracy. It's really interesting. Trauma is absolutely how I cover most of the people I cover. You find the trauma and you find everything really much. The wound, yeah. It's an addiction to want to run this family company. It's not good for them. No, no. I mean...

I don't even know if that's a metric that, you know, being good for him or, you know, success is a virtue in this family. The credo of winning. And I think at the beginning of the season, Kendall says to his brother and sister, I need something super fucking absorbing in my life. Like he needs a Matterhorn to climb because if he's not doing that, if he doesn't have something that,

then I think he will backslide into a whirlpool of negativity, of addiction, of suicidality. And so the character is always on thin ice and needs to find something to buoy himself and keep himself above water. And this is it for now. There's certainly been the replacement since he had those addiction problems at the beginning of the show.

Of course. No, it's a substitutive addiction. I mean, work addiction is a real thing. And it's something I even understand. I mean, I think many of us do in this culture. Why do you think Shiv and Roman anoint him king? Why did they agree to give it to him? What convinces them that he has this desperation, this jonesing for this job that they don't have?

I don't even think it's the desperation. I mean, maybe I'm deluded as Kendall, but I guess I think if they look at the facts objectively and squarely, he is actually the person most suited for the job. And he did demonstrate a level of, I would say, confidence.

competence in the Living Plus presentation to investors on that Investors Day presentation, while that was, you know, for me also another one of the kind of stations of the cross of like the willingness to perjure himself and to edit words into my father's mouth that he didn't say. And the cynicism of that presentation, what I say in the dressing room to Roman, you

It makes you lose your faith in capitalism. You can say anything, but he's good at it. And I think they recognize, I think they saw that. They reluctantly recognized

Crown him king. You had a scene of you hanging out in the kitchen making the gross meal for a king that they did as kids, obviously. What was in the mystery smoothie you drank? It wasn't all those things, was it? It was all those things. Oh, yeah. You drank that? We did it only a few times, and I went outside and retched and jumped—

in the ocean and washed it off my hair. And yeah, I did drink it. Yeah. You really are a method actor. Okay. I'll drink it. I wouldn't know how not to drink it. He wants it that badly that he's going to drink whatever that is. Right. But it was, it was disgusting. And the dynamic is loose and fun getting caught by their mother late at night. It was wonderful. Was that fun to play that side? It was really interesting to watch. You know, it was one of those times where I felt allowed to really just enjoy the

You know, Kieran and Sarah and I have been through so much together. I love them so much. I respect them so much. Their work this season has just blown me away.

But often Kendall is at variance with them or there is just so much tension and friction. And that's something that I need to take on board myself. It also made you see that Kendall could be happy. Just on the dock, you know, she says, you can smile, bitch. And they say, it's happy Ken. And in a way, this is what this man needed to be happy. And so he gets it for a moment.

And that happiness is carried into that kitchen and the sort of night kitchen scene. And it was a wonderful night. And we wrapped the show at the end of that scene. That was the final thing we did.

Oh, wow. Wow. And also, there was also a scene where you're floating on the dock in the water. You do feel free. All these water scenes with you, and I'll talk about the last one at the end, they're different. One felt suicidal. The other one, he's floating in the ocean. There was another one where you're floating in the ocean. This one, you're floating on the dock. Water plays a big role in your character for some reason. Yeah. The imagery. That's right. In California...

There were these big swells at Zuma Beach. It was winter and going into that ocean and floating with a sort of ebullience and triumph of that episode. And then in Barbados, as you say, the freedom. And I was sitting on that

Kieran and Sarah were shooting their scene on the beach, and I was sitting there looking up at a sky full of stars and feeling the alignment of everything for this character. And it is, it's as happy as this character ever gets. He's manic most of the time when he's happy. Yeah, I guess you could say that. But he's not manic here. That's what was different. No, in a sense it tells me, or I discovered through doing it,

that actually this is the thing he needs to make everything right in his life. And so they give that to him and then they take it away from him. It's a beautiful moment of connection. It doesn't last long, as you said. In true succession faction, it blows up in the boardroom. The big final scene with you, Shiv, and Roman is intense. Let's listen to a quick moment of that. Here's the thing. I am like a cog built to fit only one machine. If you don't let me do this, I mean, it's the one thing I know how to do. Well, it's not all about you.

I know. Yeah, you are not the most important one. I don't think I am. Yes, you do. You do. You do. You fucking do. You do. How do you get into the raw emotional space with the scenes? There's so many of these very emotional scenes. Fundamentally, that's the writing. That's just Jesse Armstrong's just astonishingly brilliant writing because he's writing about

With such understanding of human beings and their complexities and fallibilities and pathos, and there's such a subterranean level underneath the writing. Right. Was this fall between the three of them bound to happen? The vote hinges on Shiv especially, and she wavers. Why do you think that is? I think they just can't tolerate seeing Kendall...

in a sense. I think what they perceive as his sort of grandiosity and self-importance and putting his feet up on dad's desk, they can't stomach it. It's what Shiv says. I mean, I think it's also, you know, something I say to Shiv in episode eight, maybe the poison drips through when I'm trying to, I think, wrestle over the choice to make in the election. Yeah.

I think that they perceive that that is in fact true. Is that payback for that decision he made from her? I think there is payback happening. And maybe they think that Madsen is the lesser of two evils. Maybe they think I will be, you know, the Mad King.

It knocked the wind out of me. It felt unjust. And the character after that piece we just listened to sort of loses it in a way we never have seen him lose it, which also reinforces that in fact, you know, Logan is my middle name.

It reinforces that that is innate and that is part of his DNA. She also says he's not very good at the job. Well, I don't believe her and I don't think she means that. I think he is good at the job and I think he could do it. So let's listen to that. Let's listen to that fight. Shiv, don't do this. You can't do this. No. Absolutely not, man. Absolutely not. No. Why?

No, why? What, just... I love you. I really, I love you, but I can't fucking stomach you. This is fucking disgusting. It's disgusting. It's disgusting? You're disgusting. You're fucking heartless. What? It's fucking nuts. It doesn't even make any sense. I'm the eldest boy. I am the eldest boy. And, you know, it mattered to him. He wanted this to go on. Well, I mean, she's the bloodline, though.

What? I'm the bloodline? We're all the fucking bloodlines. No, I just mean if you're going to play that card, Dad's view was yours weren't real. What the fuck did you just say? Well, just not real. Real. Well, that's just what Dad said. I'm just saying what Dad said. Well, don't say it, you fucking... Wow. Whoa. Kids aren't real? What do you think is happening there? Why do that right there? Yeah, what's happening there? I mean, I think it's just...

The release of years of vitriol and animosity and jealousies and envy. And I think, you know, Jesse doesn't really believe, I think philosophically, I don't think he believes that people change. I think he's put us all in a kind of doom loop.

And that's what we're also seeing happen here. And certainly for Kendall, the ending of the series is a doom loop. Right. It's not that dissimilar from the ending of episode six in season one, where he attempts a coup, makes it to the boardroom.

leaves the boardroom having lost and walks into traffic on Broadway. And I think Jesse's making a sort of profound point that people don't change, that they are kind of stuck in this doom loop. And the same thing about his role as a dad. He claims he wants full custody. He's never with the kids. Maybe he's scared of becoming like his father. Yeah. I mean, you know, Nate says to him at the tailgate party, you're not Logan and that's a good thing.

There's a spike in him, in his heart that divides him. He both wants to be his father and doesn't want to be his father, wants to be his own man. And he does, I think, have goodness in him, or did, you know? I mean, I think the scene at the end of season three

when we're sitting at the table in Italy and I say to my father, you've won because you're corrupt and so is the world and I'm better than you.

I think he believes that, and maybe he's even standing on moral ground at that point. But by the end of season four, he's lost that high ground completely. Lost it completely. And she also, besides Roman bringing up the kids, she brings up the dead kid from earlier seasons. That's right. Well, that's what I mean by arriving at a no real person involved moment. The fact that I can...

Just in a very kind of blithe way that that never happened. And it was just something I said and I never got in the car. And one first thing you do is when you grab his head. Roman was abused by Logan. Kendall's now doing what his father would do. I think that is what's happening in that scene. It's a kind of traumatic reenactment. You know, the love language that we had as children was essentially a language of neglect and abuse.

And so we were not given nurture as children. You know, our mother, I find the character of our mother almost more painful than our father in some ways. I would agree. And so this is the way that we saw our father express himself through violence and through abuse.

Right. So after everything falls apart, Roman tells Kendall, we are bullshit. What?

What does Kendall think about that? Because it sounds an awful lot like Logan's line earlier in the season, you are not serious people, which is one of my favorite lines of all time. Well, I'll tell you, in that room, I certainly couldn't accept that. And it's why I had to keep going. Walking back into the boardroom was something that just happened. You know, it was meant to end with Roman and I in the room. But I still felt that Kendall had something left in the tank.

And so Mark Mylod, who's just such a brilliant director and a brilliant collaborator, and Jesse, I just kept going and they followed me with the camera and we went back into the room and you see this sort of, I mean, for me, it's an extinction level event that happens. And I don't think we used it in the show, but sometimes Jesse would give people off camera lines. And I think Frank said to me, you don't have it, you never had it. And when Frank said you never had it,

Which we don't hear in the show, but which I heard in the room. That did something to me that just stopped me. It just stopped me in my tracks. And I guess the life just went out of me. Yeah. Do you think he does realize he's bullshit? I think he realizes maybe not that he's bullshit, but that he never had it. That this entire...

Thing was a fallacious thing and was a fantasy and the whole thing deflates and he goes from the super being to the wraith. So let's talk about that final scene speaking, which Tom gets the CEO gig. Shiv is relegated to the wife status. Roman is the Roy doing photo ops for the Gojo deal. Well, in Roman also, I love that Roman ends at this bar where he, you sort of feel like he's going to be okay. That's what I felt. Yeah.

Like he's finally liberated from it. Yeah, agreed. This last shot, I want you to go into it, the final shot with Colin in the background, again, by water. I felt like he was going to jump. Well, in one of the takes, I climbed over the barrier. I sat on the bench and it always, to me, felt like there was nowhere, there's no coming back from this. And I looked at these waves and it was so windy that day and so cold that

And there was some piece of metal clanging. And it was this terrible sound. And I sort of couldn't bear it. And I stood up and walked slowly to the barrier that was set up there and climbed over it. And I didn't really know what I planned to do. And the actor playing Colin saw me and ran and stopped me from doing it.

Do you think that was a good choice? I think actually him sitting there and not knowing was very... I mean, I'm sure Jesse's choice is better. And in a way, I think you see the intentionality in the character. I mean, you said you felt like he was going to go in, and I did. I tried to. I've been sitting with that poem for a long time, and there's something in the Berriman poem. I sent Jesse and Mark a text after we filmed the scene saying,

There sat down a thing once on Henry's heart so heavy, if he had a hundred years and more and weeping sleepless and all them time Henry could not make good. Starts again always in Henry's ears, a chime. And that chime, the clanging, came out of that poem. And then Jesse wrote back immediately, and this is Jesse's mind.

A passage from T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland, Part Four, which is called Death by Water. Oh, wow. You guys are doing the heavy pose. But go ahead. There's a line in it.

that says entering the whirlpool. And Jesse wrote back to me entering the whirlpool. And that's what the ending is for me. Even if he doesn't physically jump. So it's not a happy ending from your perspective. It is a completely tragic ending from my perspective. And this idea, you know, the title, is it with open eyes? Is that what the episode is called? Yeah. Those eyes are not Kendall's eyes. Those eyes in the poem are

are the eyes of this reproachful face in his mind that is staring back at him. It's all the things he's done, the cater waiter who he killed. It's all the people that he has betrayed. I can't answer who that face is staring back at him ghastly with open eyes, but it's all of it. So could there be a happy ending for Kendall? He's free of the company. I think that Jesse maybe...

intended that in the writing. You know, this sense that Kendall has lost, but maybe he's free, and maybe he's going to keep walking. I guess I felt with everything in my body that there is no coming back from this. Oh, wow. I would agree with you on that, I have to say. The others, definitely Roman and Shiv is already plotting right there in the car. She was just plotting in the car. Yeah, I think that they'll be able to keep going.

I think that Kendall has just slowly mortgaged off everything and has nothing left to live for. And you've sold to a clown too. That jumping that Alexander Sarsgaard did at the end. He's fantastic. Yeah, it's terrifying. So last question, now that we've seen all of Succession, I know it sounds like a broad question, but what does the show mean to you thinking back on it? That's a hard question. The show is,

is Shakespearean in scope. You know, it's like a Swiftian satire, but it is a profound document and tapestry of life and contemporary life at this moment in our country and in our history. Having been a part of something that feels central and meaningful, that's something that I feel very proud of and grateful for. What does it mean? I mean, there's something that I've thought about since we started making this and that I've said,

there's this thing I read that Jung said that where love is absent, power fills the vacuum. And to me, that's what the show has always been about. And I don't think Jesse is offering any kind of prescription or, but that to me would have been the thing that could have helped and maybe even saved these people. And the vortex of power, which is drawing them all in and which is drawing us in as a nation is

you know, is a clear and present danger. And that's what it means to me. Fascinating. I do have one more last question. What are you going to do next? Roncom? Drew Barrymore? You and Drew Barrymore in a Roncom. A silly Roncom.

I am going to do, I'm looking at it right in front of me. I am going to do Ibsen's play, An Enemy of the People on Broadway. Oh, wow. That's a light one. Yeah. Another romp in the park. So I'm going to do that next year with my friend, Sam Gold, who's an incredible director on Broadway. And that's not for a little while. I'm going to take a break now. I feel pretty...

Pretty spent. That's amazing. Wow. Anyway, thank you so much for joining us, Jeremy. And congratulations on an incredible finale. Thank you so much. It's great to talk to you. I've never felt so sad for such rich people. I have to say. I didn't feel sad for them at all. I'm sorry. I love how Jeremy Strong just clings to the character. He can't say...

He says, my father. Yeah, he was great. He always has these profiles of it as being kind of quirky and odd. I thought he was quite warm in it. I really liked that interview because you got to see multiple sides of him. And so I enjoyed both interviews. I thought they were both very thoughtful, Skarsgård and Strong, about their roles and took them very seriously. And so I liked that. Again.

can't believe he drank that milk. I know. Whatever it was. I don't know if it was milk. It was something. There are two scenes I thought were just beautiful in this last episode. One was that scene where each of the kids, they were playing like children in the kitchen and licking the cheese and drinking the shitty milk and anointing the king. They felt so close and it was quite a beautiful moment. And then the other scene I loved was them watching that video of their father. Yeah. Just like they never knew him.

Blakeney pointed out it's almost like he had these two families. One was the work family, one was the actual family, and Connor was the one crossing that line. Though it was also the timeline where no one else was invited in, right? They were all fighting. Yeah, exactly. And I think it was really good to have him there. They wanted to sort of honor Brian Cox, who played Logan Roy. And so I thought they did a nice job. And I thought, you know, the ending really stuck well.

Like just the stare, the water, you know, bringing back the water. You called it the near suicide scene. Well, yeah, because he did do it on his own strong because he does that, I think. Like he walked out of the building and went down to the elevator, kept going. Because it was supposed to end at a different time, that particular scene. And they tried it. And then Colin would have pulled him back. But it would have been too much if he did that. That would have been too loud. It was very quiet. And you didn't know what he was going to do. We don't know till the movie, till the Joey spinoff. Exactly.

I think he's still living. We're going to know it all. Yeah. The Skarsgård interview also, and that idea of invading space, it's a classic power move. Mm-hmm. 100%. Deborah Grunsfeld, a professor at Stanford, talks a lot about body language and power. And one of the things that

CEOs, powerful people always like to do is, you know, put their seat up on the table. You know, you used to do this to Mark Zuckerberg, take a drink from his cup. Yeah, I did. Throw people off. I mean, I think they do. And they do that. A lot of wealthy people do that. And I pointed out, it's been done to me a lot by tech people. They're very in your space and even inappropriate, like not inappropriate, but more, you know, doing exercises in front of you or other things. Just like they do that a lot or they're not touchy so much as

I don't know how else to put it. It's happened a lot. And it doesn't happen with other executives ever. I've never had a...

a media executive do that or, you know. Oh, really? I've never seen a media executive do anything inappropriate involving touching with a woman. No, that's different. That's different. That's different. I'm not talking about Les Moonves. I'm talking about in a professional setting, although Les Moonves did it in a professional setting. Yes, in a professional setting. I know, but I'm talking aside from that. Okay. I'm talking about in an interview or something. Aside from the elephant, there was also a tail. Yeah. Yes. There was a great piece in the Washington Post about

Michelle L. Norris wrote a quote, to absorb a satirical drama built around the very things that threaten our civility and democracy is to normalize the poisonous vapor that threatens to choke all of us.

Obviously, she's not a fan. No, I guess not. But what do you make of the critique of this kind of fetishization of the Murdoch's Fox News, the Boers on the floor power throws? Well, rich people are interesting, right? I mean, come on, it's that dynasty, every, you know, King Lear. I mean, it's just the way it is. It goes way back. And I don't know if it's fetishizing or it's just schadenfreude around that money doesn't buy happiness. I don't know.

Rich and powerful people are interesting to make drama out of. Yeah, because I think that part of what this is doing is showing the cracks. Like, that's the work of this art, is to get a bunch of people who don't necessarily vote the same way, but do watch the same television and...

get them to ask questions. I mean, I don't think they come at it. I don't know. I think there's a lot of overthinking on succession. It's just a really good show. It's a really good show. Anyways, I'm going to put this on. Do you know what this is, Cara? No. It's a stealth wealth cap. You don't know about stealth wealth fashion? It's a

It's a hat. Okay. It's a quiet luxury hat. People keep asking me, is this Loro Piano? It's actually a free hat I got in a grab bag. Okay, good. Nice hat. I'm wearing the same things I wore in seventh grade, so I don't know what to tell you. Anyways, if you want advice, fashion advice, career advice, tech advice, life advice, please call us at 1-888-KARA-PLZ. That's 1-888-KARA-PLEASE.

The official HBO Succession podcast is a production of HBO and Pineapple Street Studios. The executive producers at Pineapple are Barry Finkel and Gabrielle Lewis. The producers are Elliot Adler, Ben Goldberg, and Noah Kamusa. The editor is Darby Maloney. Engineering and mixing by Hannes Brown. Production music is courtesy of HBO. Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater at HBO Podcasts,

And thanks to all the cast and crew and writers and directors of Succession. What a great ride. And a very special thanks to the on team, Naeem Araza, Blake Nishik, Christian Castor-Rossell, Megan Burney, Fernando Arruda, Rick Kwan, and Trackademics.

If you're already following our show, you are anointed king. If not, use your face eggs. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more. Tom's wham scans is the only, oh, sorry. Tom wham scans. That's Tom wham scan. Ah, Tom wham scans. Tom wham scans.

The name WomScans, then I'll do that again.