Is Chris Christie Really the Anti-Trump?
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Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is Ken, and I do beach better than Chris Christie. Almost anyone would. Just kidding. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher, and I don't really like the beach, so... And I'm Naeem Araza, and that, of course, is a throwback, not just to the Barbie movie, but to Chris Christie's beach moment. I think it was in 2017, right, that he went to a closed...

beach and was just strutting out there with his fam. Yeah. And then people made memes about it, sort of like the Bernie Sanders at the inauguration meme, but they had him on a chair and, you know, there was a lot of jokes. You know what they say? What? You can keep the beach away from Ken, but you can't keep Ken away from the beach. Yeah, yeah. Or Christy. No. But Chris

Chris Christie has been everywhere recently. He's been on Pod Save America, Piers Morgan, Fox News, CNN, Face the Nation. But in a few minutes, he'll be right here in this studio where you and I are sitting. Yeah, he's been everywhere. He's done tons and tons. There's not anywhere, you know, he'd go to an opening of a door, essentially. Ah, yes, and that will happen here shortly for him. But I think that gives us the way that we want to tackle this interview then is to go

deep versus broad. Yeah. Because he has these canned responses to all these different questions. And they're good responses and he's very quick on his feet. But I would like to know what he actually thinks about actual policy. If he won, like, he probably isn't going to win, but that's not the reason not to talk about what his policies are. You can't just be anti-Trump.

Yeah, how do you go from being pro-choice, anti-gun to being pro-wall and pro all these kind of base DeSantis policies? But yeah, I think in this interview, we want to mine for answers to very specific things and drill down, which means that we might avoid topic areas. We might therefore not cover every topic area. Absolutely. He has a lot of answers. He's a very talented prosecutor, so he's good at speaking. And he's, you know, he's become the Donald Trump president.

slayer. He's not really slaying them very much, but he's made it his business to call attention to all the faults of Donald Trump and get the Republican Party to wake up to the problem they have if he becomes a nominee. It's interesting because the people who seem to be most excited about Chris Christie are

Right, just the way a lot of Republicans are excited about RFK Jr. You know, it's because he's saying the things you want him to say, and he's had his moment of like, oh, I realize now this guy is terrible. I've talked to a lot of people about doing this, and they're all like, I just don't trust him. And I don't either, I have to say. I'm like, I find it...

You know, I like what he's saying, and you don't want to be taken in by someone because you like what they're saying because, you know, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, that kind of thing. There is an irony in that because he's positioning himself as this anti-Trump character. And it's remarkable. Christie had a bright political future. There was a time where people thought he was almost Clintonian and how, you know, this blue state Republican. Exactly. And then he lost that during the Fort Lee scandal. Right. That seems to be the beginning of his downfall. And then the Trump era. And you're absolutely right. This, like, enemy of my enemy is my friend.

you know, because even though he's positioning himself as the anti-Trump, he's very Trump-y. He is very brash. He bullies. He's good with the quips. He's addicted to the spotlight. He's

Yeah, and some of his, you know, if you read any of his books, he's very, has some stances that are very similar to Ron DeSantis and others, you know. So he, you know, I don't quite know what he is. He's like, he's neither fish nor fowl. And so it's really hard to put him down. I'd like to, like, tell us where he is politically and also policy-wise because all he talks about is making quips about Donald Trump, which I'm happy to have him do here. Yeah, he's very good at entertainment in that same way that Trump is. He knows how to put on the show. Yeah.

But a lot of people are actually, we should disclose this, the enemy isn't the friend, but you are surprisingly a Chris Christie campaign donor. Yeah, I'm going to mention it to him at the top. Yeah, I gave him money because I want him to be on the stage. I want him to reach that number. And I really like debates. I watch them. And I think it's important that Trump has someone who actually...

can take him on a little better. And I think Chris Christie's really honed his skills. I don't think he was particularly good in the debates against Trump. Nobody was. But he was great against Rubio last time and really kind of killed off little Marco. I can't believe I'm calling him that, but it's a good word. It's a good nickname. Well, it was Sloppy Chris Christie, I think. Was that the nickname? I can't remember. I don't remember. But despite the pile of cash that you've given him, which is a pile of five $1 bills, I think. That pile of cash, yeah. Christie is polling at the back of the pack.

He is. He's got 2%. Yes. They're all in the back of the pack. There's Trump and then DeSantis is limping along behind him and going lower every day, which is an opportunity for those people. And then there's everybody else. Yeah. I'm curious if there will be a way forward. Peggy Noonan had a quote in The Wall Street Journal, which was great, saying,

He is almost Trump's equal in showbiz and his superior in invective, so he can do some damage. And then goes on to ask, would it be a suicide mission? I don't know, but those kamikazes took out a lot of tankers. Oh, okay. You know, yeah, I think that's probably right. We'll see. It just doesn't—the people who love Trump love Trump. In this new Fox News poll, Fox listeners think that Trump didn't do anything. It's like not—it's 5% think he did, so—

My mom included. A lot of people are kind of not paying attention to the GOP primary. One thing is Donald Trump might not show up. He's not going to show up. Yeah, he benefits from just the talk about him more than the talk of him. But a lot of Democrats, I think, or a lot of people are not paying much attention to the presidential race and the primaries, even though Trump just had a victory lap in Iowa where Christie was surprisingly absent. We can ask him about that. I think

people think if Trump were to win the primary, it would be a boon for Biden. Yeah, everybody does. Is that, you think that's dangerous thinking? I don't, I don't. I think he's, he's damaged goods and he's lost twice, you know, he's lost twice in the last election itself, presidential election and in the midterms. I think he's a, he's a two-time loser. He's going to be a three-time loser. That's your prediction? Yes. I'm, I'm more scared than you, Cara. Well,

You know, anything can happen. We'll see. Well, do you think Chris Christie has a shot, actually? In a way, yes. There's a lane if Trump drops out. There's a lane for him. There's also a prospect of him just becoming relevant again because he has been kind of— He'll get a book deal. He'll be on TV. He'll be back on TV. So I guess there's wins in it for him anyways.

Let's take a quick break and we'll be back with Chris Christie. Oh, and a quick follow-up note for context. We actually taped this episode early Tuesday afternoon before special counsel Jack Smith unveiled the latest indictment against Donald Trump. Charges related to the federal inquiry around the 2020 elections and January 6th. Because of that, you'll hear Christie guessing about those charges and what they might be. This is all me.

All right, full disclosure, I donated $5 to your campaign. Thank you very much. Not because I want you to win in any way, but because I wanted to see you go after Trump in the debate stage. Like a lot of people, that was one of your appeals. Yeah, absolutely. And it worked. It looks like he's going to be a no-show now, as you know. I still want my money's worth. So what would you say if he was on stage standing with you right now? Depending on what he says, obviously. Yeah, some of it will depend on what he says. But look, I think—

You know, it depends on the events of the day, but like what's in my head today is looking at how he has ripped off

middle-class donors all over this country. The whole family is a grift, and that's what I would say to them. And that, you know, for you to spend $40 million of hardworking Americans' money who gave that to you initially because you lied to them and told them the election was stolen, and they gave you that money to try to fight that, and now you're spending it on legal fees for yourself when you're supposed to be a billionaire,

And you're spending the money of middle-class Americans to defend yourself against crimes that you don't want to commit. This was within his PACs, within the fundraising that he did, which he does very regularly after an indictment. He tends to do that. Probably be doing it again today. And other things in there. A quarter of a million dollars to refurbish his plane. $108,000 for Melania's stylist. And they called it strategy consulting. Look,

You know, this is the kind of stuff that makes you unfit for the office that the American people gave you and that you want to get back. And, you know, why don't you just sell some of the assets you've got if you don't have enough money to pay for your legal fees? Absolutely. Of course, his...

take is that I've been unfairly maligned and I've been unfairly prosecuted. Right. It's part of a witch hunt. Yeah, but you weren't unfairly maligned or prosecuted by the middle class donors who gave you that money and gave you the money to do something else with it, not what you're doing with it. Right. And so that comes to mind today. And what also comes to mind is that, you know, this

lie that you're telling people that it's not you being indicted, it's you for them. Well, they weren't the people who took classified documents out of the White House. They weren't the ones who ignored 18 months of private requests from the government to please return them. They weren't the ones that lied to their own lawyers and hid documents from them.

They weren't the ones, you know, who allowed their lawyers to lie to the government knowingly. And they weren't the ones who were showing classified information around Mar-a-Lago to people so you could act like a big shot and pretend you're still president. Right. You guys have gone head to head on many issues.

pot calling kettle moments. He accused you of being cozy with Obama. You shared an image of the Clintons at the 2005 wedding to Melania and asked to be danced the night away with Melania. Talk about why you think this works, this sort of you're pushing back. He's a bully. You're bullying back at him. Is it presidential or what's the strategy here from your perspective?

- Well, no, the strategy is I watched what I did in '16, which was not to respond to this stuff. That didn't work. - You were over dealing with Marco Rubio, actually. - Yeah, that didn't work. And so, you know, I think for somebody like him, what I've learned over the years of dealing with him now, much more closely over the last six or seven years than I ever did before, was that if you don't answer back, he fills that vacuum. And then there are many people who will come to believe what he says.

Repetition. Sure, which he has said a number of times. Repeat something over and over again. It becomes true. And on the Obama stuff, like, I'm not the least bit ashamed of what I did. I did the right thing. And that's the other point I was making. He's after the hurricane. Correct. And the president wanted to come. I welcomed him. I spent the day with him. I complimented him because he was doing a good job. And I think that's what you do. Yeah.

You tell the truth and you're the governor and he's helping your state recover from the worst natural disaster in the state's history. You treat him fairly. We've got one president at a time. And while I didn't vote for Obama, it doesn't matter. He's the president. Sure, sure. And you had a crisis. You do that stuff. So I think not allowing him to use that stuff in a way which doesn't point out

His hypocrisy on it. It's not just that he's criticizing me for doing what I should have done. It's also, are you kidding? Right. Are you kidding? You know, like you have Hillary at your wedding. You donated $100,000 to the Clinton Foundation. Yeah. You donated to Hillary's campaigns. Like that's your choice to do. But don't criticize me for doing my job. A lot of Democrats are excited about you because you give Trump as good as you get, right, from him. Have prominent Democrats reached out to you to say attaboy?

Sure. Who is that? We're not going to say. Not going to say. Not because it would hurt me, but it would hurt them. What is their general attitude? Come on, just one. Got to be Clinton. Clinton's got to be Clinton. We're definitely not going to talk about that, Cara. But the general attitude is like you're doing the right thing. Thank goodness somebody in your party is finally standing up to this guy. Right. Go get him. Right, right. And does that happen within the Republican Party? Yes. Yes.

With people who... As much or more. More. Than I get from Democrats. What's the tone of those things? Whispering. Whispering. The Republican thing is like, you're doing a really good job. Right. Just don't make me say it publicly. I see. You want to say who does that? No. Okay. They're scaredy cats, though. They're scaredy cats. So they won't say anything, but they say it to you and keep going. Right. Okay. So you're sort of the enforcer in a weird way. It seems to be evolving into that. Obviously, liberals are backing you because they hate Trump. They have a real...

real hatred of him. Um, and it's an enemy of my enemies kind of thing. That's okay. I'll take it. Um, as Mark Bodnick, the VC pointed out on Twitter, if we want to see Trump beaten in the primaries, focusing on, uh, your hypocrisy of having supported him is anti anti-Trump. If you've got that. Um, and because you were a Trump supporters for six years. Um,

Two things. One of the things that many people said to me is like, Chris Christie, I agree with him, but it makes me uncomfortable. I feel that way too. It's like, wait a second. I don't agree with you. I'll get to policy because I do want to talk about you. You can't just be anti-Trump. You have to be for something. I am. Which we can talk about in a second. But you've talked about this a lot of interviews, being instrumental in helping Trump rise to power. You gave him a lot of cover because you seem more legitimate than some of the other sort of –

around him in a lot of ways. Talk about that. It's sort of a – I know you're Catholic. I'm also Catholic. I'm also from New Jersey. I assume part of your face is this road to Damascus moment, right? You know, I don't know if I want to make it that. Yeah. So not Paul. Okay. Yeah. But what I would say is that, you know, by the time I endorsed him, the primary race was over. Mm-hmm.

And so my view on it was this is after South Carolina. Right. I had seen him almost win Iowa, win New Hampshire, and win South Carolina by double digits. I'm like, this is over. So now the question is, can I make him better? You know, I'd known him for a while. Can I have influence on him in a way that will make him a better candidate and if he wins a better president? And so that's how I made the decision to do what I did.

And yeah, I was with him. That seems to be an excuse of a lot of people. I think it's true. Because in the end, like I said about Obama, you know, we have one president at a time. And I think that some people have overplayed the importance of my endorsement. I'm not backing away from it. I did it. And I'm telling you why I did it. But I also don't think... Yeah, but I also don't... And you were much more of a critic of him than others. I was. Yeah. And I think that people...

looked at that at the time and to me it was about being practical. Um,

And I think it didn't have nearly the effect that some people claim that it did. But that's all speculation one way or the other anyway. It doesn't make me change my decision from back then. I did what I did. And I have to stand with the decision that I made. You understand that has a flavor of jumping on the bandwagon to get power, right? Yeah, except that I never accepted a job. And then you were fired from the transition because of Jared Kushner, because of your prosecution of his father.

Yes, I think that was probably 90% of it. And 10% of it was that I had already started to push back on some of the personnel choices he wanted to consider. And we had a big fight about it like two days after the election. I was fired the next day. So one of the things you've been saying a lot is that you make a very clear point that it wasn't January 6th that turned you. It was the 2020 election. Why not before? There were so many moments that

Again, politics being a choice, Cara. You know, I was very concerned about Joe Biden's age and his competency to be able to do the job. And so, again, with two imperfect choices, I made the choice I made. But I'm talking about pre-Joe Biden. There was Charlottesville. There was all kinds of one thing after the next. You know, I can't explain to you— I'd love to know what you were like in Charlottesville in that moment. Well, if you go back and you look, I tweeted out that I thought that was awful at the time. So, you know, I was pretty clear and direct about it. So—

I didn't, you know, sit there and make excuses for things like Charlotte's with I thought were wrong. I didn't.

tweeted out right at the time that this is unacceptable to say that there are good people on both sides. It's just wrong and it's unacceptable. Right, but there you were at the White House then later. Right. Where did the hope come from? Because it seemed pretty clear pretty early that this guy was a problem. We have one president at a time. Okay. And you try to make that person and influence that person if you have the ability to access him, which I did. Right. You try to make him the best you can make him until there comes a point where

When you believe it is completely unsalvageable, and that's where I came to on election night.

You talk about your previous support. You want to make him better, and it didn't happen, obviously. I want to know, as a candidate, if you had that shift, which people can change. Trust me, I get the whole it's a Catholic thing. You're allowed to change. You're allowed to be better. We believe in redemption. Yes, redemption. Yeah.

Americans would ask if you started to get some traction, why should they trust your judgment if you missed it here? This is you as a candidate. Well, because there's no perfect candidate and there's no one who has perfect judgment. But I think what matters the most is do you learn and are you willing to admit your mistakes? And I think there are very few people in our business –

that are willing to do that. Yes, you've noted this, yeah. And so, you know, I think that's the only way to explain it. So I was wrong. Oh, I've said that. Yeah, I was wrong. Works, you think, with voters. I don't know if it works, but it's the truth. Right, right. So, you know, I'm not...

I can't worry about whether the truth works or not. It is the truth. Yeah. And so I'll say it. If it works, it works. And if it doesn't, then so be it. So you're also in a class of former Trumpers from Pence kind of to Barr, Bill Barr, to John Kelly, to, you know, even to Scaramucci, Anthony Scaramucci, who have gone really hard at

President Trump, former President Trump. As I said, I'm vaguely uncomfortable with all of you, although I know a lot of these people. I talk to them and I try to reach out because I like to reach out to people. How is it that all of you, and you've all worked directly for him in some capacity or been very close to him, still not dent the popularity? You are all, the people that are working for him are telling people this. Why doesn't it work?

Well, first of all, I'm not convinced that it won't work ultimately in the heat of a campaign when people are really paying attention. But also, I think that today's politics is a bit

more tribal than it's ever been in the respect that people keep their uniforms on 24 hours a day, seven days a week when they didn't used to. So I think that's part of the explanation too. - But these are people who aren't keeping their, this is Bill Barr, not exactly, you know. - No, no, I'm talking about why haven't we-- - Pal of AOC. - Yeah, but why haven't we dented the popularity? Because I think that a lot of those folks keep their uniforms on 24/7. - They do because he's been pretty critical. He's been pretty critical, they've all been critical.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. At different times, yeah. But do you think it works? Talk about why you think it works. I don't know that it works, Cara. We're going to find out. My son knows a lot about you. It's interesting because I would say I don't know what he is. He's going to vote for the first time this election. He's 18 years old. And he said he didn't like the name calling. And he said, I think Trump made fun of him too. Oh, Krispy Kreme Christy. So he knew. It got through to a kid. Yep.

And then he goes, he said, it's good that he's hitting back at a bully. They all got steamrolled eventually and bowed down. Easy to insult Trump when Biden's in charge. Easy to lie down and take it when he is. Seems convenient and hypocritical. So he likes you, but he's also like, don't back down later if he won. Oh, I won't. Okay.

I've made my – This is a young person engaged in politics. Which is great. And young people are very attuned to that. No question. So what do you – how do you answer someone like him who's open, who's very open? Yeah, I think what I say to him is like first off, if you ever are going to look for the perfect person to be someone you vote for, you're –

You're either not going to find them and then be disillusioned or you're going to believe you found them and then you'll be disillusioned later because nobody's perfect. But he thinks you're going to roll over if Trump won. Well, it's just – look, there's no way that I can prove to him that I won't except to tell him that I wouldn't be going through all this right now. Yeah. I mean, there's no way – He does tend to go back with people who he's fought with though. Well, that would be –

That would be his attempt, and I'm sure he would attempt to do that. But I will not be open to such an attempt. One of the things that you've talked about is that may have shifted you was knowingly gave you COVID. And you've talked about this in detail. I was shifted by then, you know, once I found out that he knowingly gave me COVID.

Right. And find out until well after. Right, until well after. So you didn't find out until after the election. Like a year later. Yeah. When Mark Meadows put his book out. If you had known, would that have been enough for you to publicly break with him? And I want you to talk about this COVID experience. If I had known in October

in late September, early October, that he knowingly gave me COVID? Yeah. Yeah, that would have been pretty easy. It'd been easy. And talk about this COVID. You were with him, he had COVID, and you got very sick. How bad was it? And how close were you? I was in the ICU for seven days. And they were within a day of intubating me. And fortunately, I decided to take

A monoclonal antibody cocktail, which at that time was purely experimental, hadn't even been approved by the FDA yet. But we were pretty concerned that it was going in the wrong direction, so I'd try anything. I tried it, and I really believe that product from Eli Lilly. That helped you. I think it's what saved me. Yeah, and Trump called you and said, asked you if you were going to tell people that he gave it to you. Yes. When he, in fact, did give it to you. Correct. You thought he was kidding. Correct.

I just thought he was being paranoid. Right. Because I was like, well, how do we know? I said, six of the seven of us in that room got it. So how do I know who patient zero was? Right. And he goes, yeah, but are you going to say it? And I said, I wouldn't say it unless I knew it was true. So no, I'm not going to say it. Did you at that moment think –

That maybe he did give it to you and was doing that? No, I did not think that anybody could be that calculating and awful to know that they gave it to you and then try to ask you whether you were going to say it or not when they knew you had no reason to know. No. Right. No, it did not. First of all, I was sick. Right. And so I wasn't thinking a lot about the conversation when it happened. Right. But to the extent that I did, I never thought that he was trying to manipulate me.

me in any way. Right. Because again, I couldn't have known. How are you like Trump, would you say? Do you have, you have brashness, you hit back pretty hard. Yeah. I mean, look, I think that's a regional cultural type of trait for a lot of people who come from this area of the country. The tri-state area. Yes. Right. But I don't think I'm very much like Donald Trump, no. How are you different?

I'm intellectually curious. I'm thoughtful. I care about other people. Let's do those three things. You're similar in that you're essentially New Yorkers. Well. Well, New Yorker, like New Jersey New Yorkers. New Jerseyans, as you know, Cara, will never admit to being New Yorkers, ever. Yes, I knew I was. So I will storm from the studio before I will admit that. Okay, all right. But you don't think you're like him? No. No. Can you tell me one thing you liked about him?

And still do? I don't know about still do, but one of the things I liked about him was he had a good sense of humor. He could laugh about himself. Yeah. No, I think about it a lot. I think about Elon Musk, who I'm not speaking to now for lots of reasons that are – and I talked a lot. He's brilliant. Yeah, I don't think Trump's brilliant, but I think he had a good sense of humor. Good sense of humor, meaning that he did. He does, actually. That's absolutely true. And which I think is an appeal, is a big appeal to people. It's sort of turnt, like the way it has with Elon in a weird way. Mm-hmm.

We'll be back in a minute. Let's talk about the indictments, the probable indictments. I want you to know what the most—we can't go into great detail, but you're a lawyer, so it's helpful. What are the most damaging? As a former prosecutor, can you rank them? And I know you can't judge them because you haven't seen the evidence, blah, blah, blah, but you have some sense. I think that the most—

The most legally perilous one for him is the documents case for two reasons. One, because of the nature of those documents. And I think a jury, when they ultimately see them, will be really, really offended by the idea that someone would keep these things illegally and then show them around to people willy-nilly. And secondly, the obstruction is so blatant. And even now the superseding indictment.

on sending Fredo down to Mar-a-Lago to delete the server. Right, right. You know, it's so blatant that it is

an acknowledgement of guilt and fault. Because if you didn't think you did anything wrong, you wouldn't be looking to delete the information off of the cameras. You'd say, look at whatever you want to look at. I didn't do anything wrong. And the boss wants to. It does happen. I'm Italian. You're allowed to use Fredo. Yeah, it's absolutely. And I think for those of us who are, we know exactly what Fredo types are. And so I'd say that's the most dangerous one

because of the conduct. The second one, my guess will be, will be the January 6th one. I really don't know yet. I've seen the target letter, but I don't know exactly what they're going to charge him and what the quantum of their evidence is. But I kind of suspect they have a number of cooperating witnesses in the January 6th thing that will talk about his conduct that day and the days leading up to it. And

on two scores. One, that there were any number of people who were telling him, you lost. Like, we've looked at everything. Including his daughter. You lost, right? Although I don't know what kind of witness she'll be. But then, also, his contact on the day of January 6th and his unwillingness to

to intervene to attempt to stop the violence until it was much too late and much of the damage had already been done. And what about the others? I'd say the Atlanta one is going to be problematic because of the

the use of his own voice and the taping of the phone call. And it's a RICO, it's a racketeering. Well, and they have a very broad state RICO statute, which is kind of unusual. Most states don't have a RICO statute. And that'll expose them to a lot of potential state prison time. Right. Again, the only thing I hesitate on is I want to know what the quality of the evidence they have wholly is on it. But...

The tape alone of him saying, just find me 11,000 and some votes. And the fact that people had told him repeatedly that the claims of fraud in Georgia were ill-founded from the governor of Georgia right on down. Right. So it's not like he had incredible people telling him this stuff. People who knew it. As a prosecutor, how would you look at this case? You'd be like, I got him? Which one? Any of them. Oh, and by the way, the New York one I think is silly. Yeah. And I think it...

Unfortunately, what Alvin Bragg did here demeans the other cases. And the fact that he went first. Many people have forgotten about that one. Yeah, unfortunately. But I think it set the tone. And people thought, oh, well, see, this is just a political thing. And now Jack Smith's work is being looked at in the same light as

Which I think is unfortunate because I don't really think there's anything political about what Jack Smith is doing. How effective is that calling it a witch hunt and stuff like that? It seems to be effective among his supporters. I think it's effective among his supporters. I think once you get into a courtroom, it's not effective at all. Right. Which is what happened with the election lies. That's right. Like he lost in court after court. Right. And including with CNN this week. And I think that he – that will be his problem. His problem is going to be there's going to come a moment where he's going to have to come eye to eye with the fact –

that he more likely than not is going to be convicted of one or more of these indictments. And if you take it to trial, especially on the federal level, there is a presumption of jail. And so, you know, he's got to come to grips with that and make a decision about whether he wants to try to make a deal or not. Have you been questioned in any investigations? Questioned in any investigations? One of them. Which one? I can't say. Okay. But one of them. One of them. And what was the broad idea?

They were trying to get a handle on what I knew about his knowledge of the reality of the election results. Okay. All right. And when was this? When was that questioned? Six weeks ago. Eight weeks ago. Okay. So we're in that range. Were you helpful?

I was honest. Okay. All right. I hope that was helpful. All right. But getting to the point, you might think he might take a plea deal in order to avoid going to prison. A lot of people have talked about this recently. I've just noticed a lot of— Well, because he was coming real. Even his supporters are like, well, even though it's a witch hunt, maybe he should take a plea deal. You never really say that. Explain how that would work universally. And can you or anyone beat Trump if he doesn't take a plea deal?

Oh, I think he could still be defeated. I think he could still be defeated in a primary if he does not take a plea. But I think that any plea would have to include him agreeing to not run for any public office again. Can you do that? Sure you can. Yeah. So do you think he will take it? Many people think – this is a big bet on his part. I don't think – Not to go to jail. Yeah, I don't – He's got to win or he's got to have a Republican who wins who's going to pardon him, right? Yep. I don't think he –

can deal with the idea of going to jail. And I've always thought that based off a conversation I had with him

18 years ago, I was, I had just, we had just finished convicting and sentencing a guy named John Lynch, who for a period of time in New Jersey was the Senate president. So a very powerful guy, a Democrat. And we, he, Trump and I were having dinner sometime thereafter, just the two of us. And he said to me, so what's going to happen to John Lynch now? And I said, well, I forget what his reporting date is, but he's going to jail. He goes, no, no, I mean, what are they going to really do with him? I mean, he's not going to a real jail. Where's he going? Right.

He's going to federal prison, Donald. And he reached over and grabbed my arm and he said to me, I could never do that. I could never go to jail. That's unbelievable. I couldn't go to jail. And that's 18 years ago. I remember that conversation very clearly. And I think— But he still doesn't believe he could go to jail.

Well, no. What he was saying, though, was I couldn't. I couldn't. I physically couldn't. But do you think he right now believes where he said, no, he's not really going to jail, Chris? Well, now he knows that that's what happens. And I think he fears it. Right. I think there's no doubt in my mind that more nights than not, whether he's in Bedminster or in Mar-a-Lago, he lays down in bed, the lights go out, and he's staring at the ceiling thinking,

I could go to jail. I could go to jail. Okay. So let's move on to your goals in the race. Are you seeing victory or renewed relevance or just you need to take this guy down? Victory. Because a recent time, CNN poll, you tied with Vivek Ramaswamy, which at 2% among potential Republican primary voters. Right now, you're skipping caucuses in Iowa. It makes sense to me, actually. Averaging around 8% in New Hampshire and 3% in South Carolina. Map out the path to victory and how you –

You are seeking victory. Yes. Oh, absolutely. Okay. You come in first or second in New Hampshire and then you go from there. Okay. Explain. I get the John McCain thing that everybody's referring to. But those are really racist. There was never Trump standing there in the John McCain era. No, but what will Trump be come February of 2024? I don't know. Right. And nor do you. So there's a lane. I don't believe in lanes. I think there's one lane and Trump's at the head of that lane. Right. I mean, there's a lane for you all to get by him.

I don't think you get by him, you go through him. You said that, yeah. I just don't think there's any way to get around him or by him or trick him or trick the voters and play bumper pool. I think this is...

He's the front runner. You got to make the case against him and make that case convincing to people in either Iowa or New Hampshire. And I think if you don't come in first and second or either Iowa or New Hampshire, unless your third place finish in one of those places is essentially tied for second, I don't think you can go forward. You can't go forward. I don't think. And will you not go forward if that's the case? Prove that eight years ago. If I don't feel like

I'm not the kind of person who loves asking people for money anyway. And if I really felt that I had absolutely no chance to win, I couldn't do it. Not just to stand to just poke at them the whole time to stop. Oh, no. Because that's not my goal. I recognize that there is a utility to that. But to me...

The main utility of that is that's the only way to win. To win. Okay. You say that after you win the primary, the MAGA groups will vote for you in general because they like your policies. I do think perhaps you've misdiagnosed the Trump phenomena. It's emotional. They like him, not policy. If it was not emotional, they would vote for Ron DeSantis or whoever. They sort of started to like him until they met him. Explain to me why I'm wrong about that.

that. I don't think you're completely wrong. I think it's split. I think for some people it is an emotional connection that is absolutely untethered to any issues. But for a lot of people that I talk to, they like his issues despite the fact that they are kind of repulsed by him personally. So I think that's kind of split, Cara. I think there are some people who, let's say, have that 37% in the Times-Siena poll. I

I think that it's probably, you know, 20% of the people it's emotional and the remainder, I think it's issue-based and they have not yet really focused on the fact that he can't accomplish the stuff he's talking about because of his personality. Right. So you originally cultivated a centrist image, the pragmatic Republican from a blue state who, who hugged Obama pro-choice anti-gun. Now your pitch is that you'll build a wall, send troops to the border, repeal Obamacare, um, which you've dinged Trump about. Um,

What are you? Are you a centrist? And what do you actually stand for now? Is this evolved? I'm right of center. First off, I think that when you're talking about the criticisms I made of Trump, I'm

Those are not necessarily advocacies for those policies. Those are critiques of his failure to do what he said. When you're running against an incumbent, which is essentially what I'm doing in the Republican primary, then you have to be able to make the case as to why the incumbent was not effective the first time he had the job. And so I didn't say, you know, let's repeal and replace Obamacare. I said it at the time. He got nominated.

And he didn't do it with the Republican majority in the House and the Senate. That's a problem. Right. You know, he said he was going to build a big, beautiful wall across the entire border. Mexico was going to pay for it. Well, he built 52 miles of new wall. And Mexico hasn't given us the first peso, nor will they ever. Is that your policy to repeal Obamacare? That seems like that train is left. Look, I think we need to do health trips to the border. Hold on. I think we need to.

make the healthcare system better and reform it. And you got to figure out what you can do with Congress and whether that's something that's even possible to do. Second, on Centrums to the Border, I absolutely believe we should send National Guard to the border with the specific job of interdicting fentanyl, not about immigration per se, but about the idea that

This is an act of war by both these drug cartels and by China against us. 110,000 people died of overdose last year. We need to get a handle on this. So it's focused not on immigration but fentanyl. That's exactly what I'm saying. What about the wall? At this point, you've started to build it. You might as well finish it. That's my view. Really? Yeah.

maybe just say this is a stupid idea? You know, I wouldn't say, given what's happened in the aftermath, that it necessarily is a stupid idea. The stupid part of it was thinking Mexico was going to pay for it. But given that we've already started to build it, I think we should finish it. Because he couldn't. Not because he couldn't. He didn't. But because the immigration problem has been unabated, as has the drug cartel problem. And to the extent that a wall could help that, we should have every...

assistance we have to try to help that. And that's why I would send National Guard down there as well on the fentanyl issue. What do you think your biggest policy issue that you would push the most is at this point? Changing the educational system in K-12 in the country. When you see the NAEP scores that just came out a couple of weeks ago and now, I think they constitute a trend. I think that we're not doing what we need to do in K-12 education in the country. And I think we need to give

more choice to people in terms of how they want to see their children educated. And so I think that that should be a national priority. So let's talk about the other presidential candidates who say Trump does take a plea. You'll be against. Let's do a lightning round. I'll name a candidate. I want you to pick three words to describe each one. Okay. Ron DeSantis. Overrated, impersonal, and confusing. Okay. Nikki Haley? Kind, smart, and...

unsure of where she stands. Okay. That's more words. Yeah, I got it. Mike Pence? Mike Pence, I'd say, again, good man. But I would say refuse to stand up to Trump at times when I know he disagreed with him, but deserves credit for January 6th. Okay. Vic Ramaswani? I just have no idea. What the fuck is fine for that guy? I have no idea.

No idea at all. Oh, geez Louise. Your friend at 2%. Francis Suarez. Again, not the first idea. I don't know him and I'm not curious. He's really fit. Congratulations. Yeah, I'm just saying. He runs a lot. I can't, you know, I can't. He also is very nice. He will not insult you for your weight. It would be hypocritical of me to be critical of that. Right, right. Very fit. Trump then.

I mean, three words for Trump? Yeah. New ones. I think I've used so many of them already. There's a lot of words. Look, self-centered, uncaring, and dangerous. Tim Scott? Good man. Very talented politically.

Not entirely sure he's ready to be president. Tim Scott has criticized DeSantis for Florida's new middle school curriculum, which will force middle school teachers to teach kids that enslaved people learn skills that, quote, could be applied for their personal benefit. Where do you stand? I can't believe I'm asking this. It's just stupid. And like what DeSantis should have done in my view is just say, look, I didn't write it.

And it's wrong. And I want them to take it out. And that's what he should have done. I don't know why this is a hill he's picking the die on. Yeah. I don't know. I don't understand it. And I think that, quite frankly, on some issues like this, you know, I trust Tim Scott a hell of a lot more to tell me

what is offensive and what isn't and what is just dead wrong and isn't, then I would run to Santa's. Now, you did criticize Tim Scott for not saying Donald Trump was responsible for January 6th or partially responsible. I think he's morally responsible. And I don't know how Tim comes to any other conclusion.

He invited all those people to come to Washington and said it was going to be wild. Then when he got him there, he jacked them up by once again repeating the lie that the election was stolen and telling them that it was all up to Mike Pence now, which was wrong and a lie.

Then he told them to march up to Capitol Hill and said he was going to go with them. Now, I knew that if Donald Trump had the risk of breaking a fingernail, he wasn't going. So he got back to the safety of the White House, but he goosed them up enough to go up there and then watched what they were doing and did nothing about it. So I don't know if you – and none of those facts are disputed. Right. Right? So I don't know how you look at that set of facts, and Tim's a smart guy, and you can't come to the conclusion. I'm not talking about criminally responsible. I'll wait to see the indictment and see what it says. Right.

But you're morally responsible for that. So why won't these other candidates be? Is it just because they don't want to lose the Trump base? I think it's a mix. I think they're afraid of him, and they're afraid of being on the receiving end of his wrath. And I think that fear is both physical and political. And I think that they believe that— Physical meaning death threats, that kind of thing. You've gotten those. Over time, yes. But in the end, Cara, it's like—

I think that some of them are unwilling to do it because they don't think it's politically smart. Some of them are auditioning for a potential Trump administration. And I think some of them just aren't able to do it. Like they just physically aren't equipped to be able to be in that combat. So what does that say about the candidates who are too cowardly unwilling to call out Trump? Is that disqualifying in general?

I believe so. Okay. You know, Nixon had a southern strategy. Reagan launched his 1980 campaign with the state's rights speech. It's a few miles from where freedom riders were killed. George Bush had the Willie Horton ad. Now your party is banning books and teaching both sides of slavery. There's people in your party, not everybody, obviously. How do you look at something like this, banning books? This is affecting a lot of people who are Republicans are like, what? Like, I can't believe this.

And the slavery thing seems just…

And we haven't even talked about we have to deal with entitlements and we have to deal with the debt. Social security. Right, right. Yeah, so entitlements. There's a lot of big issues we should be talking about.

And this stuff – and I think even the polling shows this, that people don't care about it that much. They really don't. And it's not a top issue to them. But I think the people who are using it are using it to try to gin people up and get them even angrier because they think that will be in their personal political interest. You need them to drop the slavery thing and drop the book banning? Oh, well, the slavery thing should never – Trans issues? The slavery thing should never have been in there. And look –

On the trans stuff, I've said all along, to me, these are issues that parents should be dealing with, not government. Because once a person's an adult, they make their own decisions once they're above 18. Younger than 18, I don't think that when I was governor—

I was in a better position to make judgments about whether a child should get a certain type of treatment than a parent would be. I think parents should be making those judgments. And I think it's wrong. I'm not a big government Republican. And some of these folks who are now doing this to me seem to me like big government Republicans. Yeah, they do. And so I think I am—I wouldn't want anybody coming into my house and telling me,

how I should interact with my children. Now, if I'm beating them, if I'm starving them, that's a different thing. But if we're talking about my child has an issue and I'm taking them to doctors and the doctors and the parents and the child agree on a course of action, I don't think the government has

the right to be intervening in the middle of that. Let's talk very quickly about Biden. You say he's incompetent, but he's gotten four major pieces of legislation passed, the American Rescue Plan, the infrastructure bill, which you supported, the Inflation Reduction Act, and the CHIPS Act. He outmaneuvered the Freedom Caucus during the debt ceiling negotiations. He rallied support for Ukraine. The economy, the recession seems to be not happening, and Barbie is a hit.

Well, the Barbie thing is particularly his doing, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, and I'll go through the list of things where I think, you know, he has not done well. You know, things are 17% more expensive today than they were the day he came into office. And I think that that was his creation through the Inflation Reduction Act. I think it's a complete misnomer, as was the American Rescue Plan, because America didn't need to be rescued at that point. It had already been rescued from COVID.

I do support the infrastructure plan. I give him credit for that. But I also watch him every day. And I don't believe he's up to the job anymore. So Trump is only three years younger. I don't think he's up to the job either. And I think that's why 70% of the American, absolutely. Age and how age has affected you. And that's why I think 70% of the American people don't want it to be Trump versus Biden. Because they look at the two of them and say, for very different reasons,

that they're not up to the job anymore. I think they're past their sell-by date, and I think Biden shows every day, for anybody who wants to be objective, that this is not the Joe Biden that we've gotten to know over the last incredibly 50 years in government, and that he's not up to it. And if he's not up to it today at 80, the idea of him still doing this at 86 is just beyond me. I don't think he's competent to do the job now. I think this is mostly a staff-driven administration.

And I don't think that he can grab the reins if necessary to get things done because I just don't think he's physically or mentally up to it. Three words for him. Three words for Joe. By now? Yeah, and I want one of them to be good. I have no problem with that. I think he's too old. I think he went too far left.

but I think he's a very kind person. And I've known him for 40 years. We both went to the University of Delaware. And I got to know him when I was a college student, when he used to wander around the football tailgates. And then we developed a relationship after that. You like him. I do. On a personal level, I really do. I don't think there's a lot for me, on a personal level, not to like about Joe Biden. I think he's a kind person. And I was at something else earlier today where I said, you know, I will never—

my respect for him on a personal level after having lost two children. Mm-hmm. And I have four. I can't imagine losing one. And the fact that he's continued to be able to be a contributing, really seriously contributing leader in this country with all the personal pain and anguish that he's gone through in his life. Mm-hmm.

I think is extraordinarily admirable and shows a strength of character on his part. Okay. That's a good ad for him. Last question. You said you weren't going to vote for Trump. You said you're not going to vote for Trump, but you haven't. You said you'd probably sit this one out. So what are you going to do? Go to Barbenheimer? What are you going to do here? No, there'll be other races underneath that. Okay. So you don't think it's wrong to abrogate sitting it out? Again, I mentioned my 18-year-old. He has to vote. That's one of my little rules of

Right. And I will vote. I just won't vote for president if that's the case. I wrote my grandmother in once. Well, I don't know that I'll do that. She was dead. I don't have any living grandmothers either. So I think that would be a problem. But look, at the end of it, I'm working hard to make sure that's not the choice. And I'll get to go in there and vote for myself. Okay. And then you can vote for Biden. I don't know who I'm going to vote for. I supported Reagan the first time. But didn't you say to me, did you say at the beginning that you gave me $5, but you don't want me to win?

Well, I don't like some of your policies. I understand. But so all I'm doing is just following what you said. I don't think you'd be terrible. How's that? How's that? Well, that's okay. I mean, you know, but I'm— But my son is intrigued. But I'm willing to bet you this. Yeah. In fact, I'll tell you two things. If I win, I'll do your podcast. Okay. And then we can have another conversation. Okay. And secondly, I'd be willing to bet that at the time I'm done, you're not going to think I was terrible.

All right. We'll do that. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Cara. I appreciate it. And tell your son thanks for being interested. It's on!

You wrote your grandmother in. Why are you pushing back if he abstains, Cara? Because I'm not running for president. I would vote if I was running for president. I'd make a stand. It would say a lot about you. You have to. If you're running for president, you've got to vote. Yeah. Alex, your son's question was really about whether people can trust Christie to stand against Trump moving forward. Yeah, he said he bent and he wants, right? He doesn't want it again. If he means what he says, he can't go back to being Trump's friend. It seems to me, politically...

That would be impossible for him. Could you see a way for him? He has so laid his body on the line on this issue. Yes, because Steve Bannon and Trump were fighting. He has lots of examples of people who he's fought with that he's come back with. I think a lot. No one has said as much as Chris Christie has said. Oh, I don't know. A couple of them have. But even Bill Barr has crossed lines. You know, this guy's a criminal is essentially what Bill Barr has been saying.

I mean, no one has used the language and had the certainty and the kind of campaigning that Christie has pulled out. No, but I actually think Trump probably likes that a little. He probably enjoys it. He respects it because they're talking about him, right? And he doesn't mind, you know, a fight. He likes a fight and a really down and dirty fight. He's probably more angry at Bill Barr than he is at Chris Christie would be my guess.

Well, or he at least respects or would want Chris Christie in his pocket in the future, which I don't think Chris Christie's going to fit back in that pocket. No.

I'm really interested in knowing more about who Chris Christie is, what he stands for. And I think we got to that through the bluster. Yeah, some of it was bluster, but I think he believes the things he's saying. I think people are interested in why he wants to do this to Trump, and it's really important to talk about it. Interestingly, at the end, though, he kind of did an ad for Joe Biden. Yeah, he did. That's why Joe Biden's good. Was it an ad or it was almost like a...

a farewell speech, I would say. I guess. I don't want to say eulogy. Yeah, right. But I think he, what he wants is politics to go back to the way it was where you can just disagree. And I think a lot of people want that. It's just that ship has sailed because of Trump. It's not just the ship has sailed because of Trump. It's also sailed because of the nature of the media consumption of politics. That what Trump and Christie are doing works. What Biden is doing, despite Trump

working on the levels if you look at the economy, if you look at the Infrastructure Act, you look at various things that have passed by Pardons and Support.

It's not the stuff that gets clicks. It's not the stuff people pay attention to. Yes, but it's the stuff that passes laws. That's what matters. Of course, but Christie knows how to play the game. Yeah. When we got to know more about Christie and know more about his policies, I was actually surprised that he took on the doctor-child parents. He was effectively speaking about trans issues and saying the government shouldn't have a right one way or another to legislate what's possible. I think what he is very effective at doing is getting the headline in.

And then correcting himself in the nuance. Yeah. So, build a wall because we started it anyways. Yeah. Send the National Guard to the border, but only on the issue of front and all. We used to be able to talk like that. Yeah. That's okay. I don't care about that. No, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I'm just saying it works for the moment in the sense that you get – the base can be – Satisfied. Satisfied. And they're not going to read further. Exactly.

Exactly. It seems like a strategy. Yeah, it's good. I think most of those stances are reasonable. You know, even if you disagree, they're like, okay, I see your point. Yeah. You know, and so that's where he's good. He's good. He was like that until the Bridgegate thing. He was like that. And he was, you know, he was a bully as governor for sure. It was...

in New Jersey at the time, in and out of New Jersey at the time. And he definitely was a bully, but he was seen as a more reasonable. I don't know if building the wall is reasonable. That might just be. No, no, not that. No, but what I agree. You wouldn't go, oh, okay. Here's what I agreed with him on is the dissension of our national conversation into a select few issues that

a minority of Americans versus speaking about the big picture issues, the shape of life. The tyranny of the minority is what we're in right now. And that is, I think, the interesting part of what you brought up. Yep, I agree. I think he's a really, he's an appealing character for sure. And I think there's a lot more appeal to him. I know a couple of my Trump relatives are interested in him. They are. They're definitely not interested in Ron DeSantis anymore, I'll tell you that. Interested romantically?

No, no. No, no. They're interested in him. They kind of like... They're curious about him. It's the same plain speaking that they liked from Trump. And I do think...

And not crazy. I think they all think Trump's crazy at this point. That was a good word when he was describing the lightning round of candidates. And I think it was on Suarez where he said, I'm not really curious about him. Curiosity is actually a good word for candidates because curiosity drives attention. That's what we're seeing in Iowa these days. Essentially, what the fuck? If you're in New Jersey, whoa, whoa.

What the fuck? What the fuck? Yeah. His buddy at 2%. Whatever. What did you learn about Chris Christie that you didn't know? Very likable. Very charming. I'm thinking about why DeSantis is – I've always thought DeSantis was charmless. This guy has a lot of charm. Yeah. And he's funny. I thought the whisper moment. The whisper moment. The whisper moment was a good – Any guesses on the Republicans who are calling him?

Oh, all of them. Do you feel like your $5 was well spent? I think it was. I feel good about my $5. I'm not going to give him another $5, but I feel good about my $5. Excellent. Let's read the credits. Today's show was produced by Naeem Araza, Christian Castro Rossell, Megan Cunane, and Megan Burney. Special thanks to Cody Nelson, Andrea Lopez-Grizzato, and Kate Gallagher.

Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan. Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get a Krispy Kreme Christy donut. If not, go back to the beach can or go wherever you listen to podcasts. Search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.