Do Never Trumpers Matter? We Asked Adam Kinzinger
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On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash bots. It's on!

Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naima Raza. Our guest today is former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger. But we're taping this Friday morning, and a little over an hour ago,

Some other news broke that's very important for Capitol Hill. Dianne Feinstein passed away Thursday evening at 90 years old. She served 30 years in the Senate and was your senator. Yes, she was. I'm in San Francisco right now, so I'm curious. And I'm meeting a bunch of San Francisco officials. I mean, she was a legendary senator.

politician here in the city and for the state of California. But she, of course, took over when Harvey Milk was assassinated along with Mayor Moscone in a terrible, I'm not going to name the guy who shot him, he was a crazy person who was also on the Board of Supervisors. And she really handled things. It was such a moment. And she stepped up as a leader and led the city for many years and then moved on to a higher office and

really pioneering in so many ways. And of course, you know, the end of her life was unfortunate because of her illnesses and there's lawsuit here and things like that. But that's not how you should remember Dianne Feinstein. She really was a great, um,

And she wasn't scared to be who she was. She wasn't always liberal, actually, even though she led a very liberal state and a liberal city, but really did try very hard. And she'll be sorely missed. I mean, obviously, the more recent news about her has been the controversy around her health issues and not being able to do things like move swiftly through judiciary responsibilities and nominations. Yeah.

in that committee. But I will always remember her for two things. One of which is that I bizarrely know she was behind the Amber Alert. So every time I get an Amber Alert, I think of her. Yes, of course. A rare bipartisan effort. Um,

back in the days where there was a lot more bipartisanship. But also she did that big report on torture and CIA torture practices. And she was asked many times, you know, why look back at practices that the CIA doesn't use anymore? And she said, well, do you think this is the stuff we as a country should be doing? And had, I think, a very ideal response.

sense of America's role in the world. Yeah. She was a great, you know, just a legend. And again, bipartisan. She really was. She really reached across the aisle. Sometimes people are mad at her when she did. And so, but she didn't care. She was a real, I mean, I don't want to use the term maverick because she wasn't really that. She was an institutionalist, but- Don't use the word renegade. She wasn't. We'll get into that. We'll get to that in a second. And from an era, I think,

From an era that doesn't exist. And it hindered her in her last years because she didn't, no one saw the freight train of polarization that Trump would bring. Well, it puts a lot of power in the hands of a certain Governor Gavin Newsom, who's been a guest many times on our show, who will now have to appoint somebody to take the seat. And it's already a very contested Senate seat, which Adam Schiff, Barbara Lee, and Katie Porter are all running for. He will be anointing the Senator of California, essentially. Any predictions? Yes.

I don't know. Maybe he'll pick someone else who's his interim person, you know, like suddenly, I don't know, Oprah's senator. Yeah.

You know, someone. I'm trying to think, like, he could do that so that it gives them an electable choice because it will be him deciding, the senator, whoever he picks, if it's one of those three because they're running. And so that's going to be a real dicey situation. If I were him, I'd pick someone who wasn't one of those three and he doesn't want to be senator and would be the interim senator. And I joke about Oprah, but why not? She lives in California. I imagine he's going to choose somebody who, or I would predict he's going to choose somebody who's quite moderate.

Because if there's any truth to the idea that he has, you know, a presidential future, California works against him. So choosing somebody. Yeah. But someone who's not running, maybe. That's the move I would make if I were him. But I'm not. Oh, you're not him. Sean Hannity. He'll put Sean Hannity. He's his best friend. Did you see them? I was like, get a room, boys. What happened? Oh, my God. They were on. They were arguing on Fox News after the debate, you know, in the spin room.

And they were arguing and he kept saying things about energy dependence and he kept repeating a number. And Gavin Newsom is right that we are less energy dependent. Sean Hannity was saying Biden was getting in the way of oil drilling or whatever. Anyway, they were like arguing about it. And it was like they were I was like, boys, like, I know you like each other a lot, but please stop. And they were it was like adorable bickering. And I was like, no, this is not something I expected. Right.

But he's been doing that, and he's supposedly going to debate Ron DeSantis. Gavin Newsom is the one to watch and talk about reviving his career from when he approved gay marriage, which was a great moment of leadership, too. But it is nice to see people who disagree talk. And in an era of bipartisanship, it seems like it's impossible. We're on the brink also, as we're taping this on Friday, of...

Yeah, absolutely. And this is the topic with Adam Kinzinger. And so I think it's really important to talk to people, especially those whose very upward trajectory careers were dashed because they did the simple thing of trying to do the right thing. And that's Adam Kinzinger, very much so, along with Liz Cheney. And you went to Texas for the Texas Tribune Fest a week ago. Like Elon, I didn't get a cowboy hat and I didn't visit the borders.

but yeah, I was in Texas. No Elon in this episode. I know, but I want a cowboy hat now. No, we have to like pay into a jar if you mention him in this episode. Well, he was in Texas and wearing a cowboy hat. Well, go ahead. But this conversation taped at Texas Tribune Festival a week ago on September 22nd. And Kinzinger, of course, is one of 10 House Republicans who voted, who crossed the aisle in voting to impeach Trump for the incitement of an insurrection. He's,

He's, you know, and like most of those people, paid the ultimate price. He didn't run and lose, as some did. He announced that he wouldn't seek re-election. And then, of course, went on to the January 6th

subcommittee, which got both he and Liz Cheney censured by their party. Yes, absolutely. He's a very good legislator. I've been meeting with a lot of legislators local in the city yesterday. He's a really good legislator. I don't agree with him on some things and not, but he's interested in policy. He's interested in... He's just... There's so many good legislators. I know people like to trash government, but when you spend time with a lot of them, some of them are terrible, obviously. But

But this is the kind of legislature you want, like Dianne Feinstein, like Liz Cheney, because this is we got a big problems ahead of us and they don't include John Fetterman's shorts. They do not. And then the question I think we had for him going into this interview, though, is, you know.

what's his relevance now? What's his political future? Not just what he wants to do, but is there space to do it? Is there space in the Republican Party for people like Adam Kinzinger and Liz Cheney? 100%. You know, Christian, a senior producer on this show, pointed out Nate Cohn's analysis from The Times that fewer than 15% of the Republican Party are what Nate called establishment voters. These are monogamous

moderate, sometimes never Trumpers. But these voices are very overrepresented in the media. I'm not so sure there is a future for him at this moment in time. Who knows? At this moment, no. But he has a memoir out talking about it called Renegade, Defending Democracy and Liberty in Our Divided Country. Yeah, that's coming out in October. We touched on it a little bit, especially the title. And

He's a pundit. You hear him as a senior correspondent now on CNN. Like you, he's backing Christie. I'm not backing Christie. You give him $5. I'm riding with Biden. I'm still riding with Biden. Or Gavin and Kennedy as a pair. Oh, that's an interesting ticket. No. I don't think they're doing that. But Kinzinger has been very...

very critical of media outlets for covering Trump. And he's been an outsized critic of Trump. So it'd be interesting to hear you talk to him about that as well as his own relevance and future. And I do love the Texas Tribune Festival. They have amazing people. I don't go to Texas very often, honestly. And so I was really appreciative that they invited me there. And of course, you were there the day that the news broke of Rupert Murdoch's very good health and stepping down from chairmanship. So...

We should note there's a dip in audio right in your first question. So we're going to spoil it. Do you remember your first question? No, I do so many interviews. Don't put me on the spot. Here, I'll give it to you. Hang on, let me find. Oh, you're retired now like Rupert Murdoch, which is to say not retired. Just to say not retired at all. Anyways, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with Adam Kinzinger live at the Texas Tribune Festival taped on Friday, September 22nd. ♪

So retired now like Rupert Murdoch? Yeah, I'm retired. I'm out. I'm out. Yeah.

I don't know how that's going to go with that whole kind of organization now. And I don't know, hopefully it straightens up a little bit, but we'll see. Yeah, I doubt it. I doubt it, too. I'm a little worried. But you're hardly retreating. You continue to be vociferous in your critiques of fellow Republicans. You have a book coming out on Halloween, which I think is funny. It's called Renegade. It's called Renegade. On Halloween. That's correct. Is that your new position, Renegade? Is that the thing? I guess so, yeah. Yeah.

I just think it's like, let's just be, let's just do things. Let's just talk, let's tell the truth. Okay, but do you know what renegade actually means? I don't know. No, I'm going to tell you. I'm nervous now. The definition is a person who deserts or betrays an organization, country, or set of principles. It's not a nice word. The synonyms are traitorous and treacherous.

To be fair, lower down in the definitions, a person who behaves rebelliously in an unconventional manner. There is the stick song for renegade, which for older people, they know it. Oh, mama, I'm in fear for my life from the long arm of the law. That's pretty accurate, too. Lawman, put an end to my running and so far from my home. There's a 1990s TV show I enjoyed by Lorenzo Lamas.

With a voiceover. Ooh.

Do you like that one? Yeah, I like that one. So Lorenzo Lamas is what we're going to do. That's better than how this started. Yeah, exactly. Betrayer, like turncoat. And it's also a Jeep, just so you know. Yeah, we know that. But they're getting struck on right now. So explain what you think a renegade is. Yeah, I mean, I think a renegade, it's like when I think of my, used to be my friend, John McCain. He's a maverick, right? Like just somebody that like doesn't, you don't get...

You can come out of that, I don't know, that like silo that you get put in. And that happens whenever you join a political party. You always have this pressure to stay in a certain way and act a certain way. And I think a renegade or a maverick is somebody that's just like, you know what, I'm not going to do it. I've had enough. I've hit a point where it's like, in my case, the consequences I've seen to this country have been too big. So you didn't start off that way. You sort of were the belong, you know, the good boy, essentially, of the party. Yeah.

in that regard. I was a mainstream Republican. Yeah. And you know, when you get there, it's, you know, the thing is you can either work as a team or you can work against the team. And so when we're there and started, I started in 2011 and kind of threw out kind of the early Boehner years, you know, we were fighting against this kind of crazy Tea Party Club, but it got worse obviously now. I mean, they're willing to go as you're seeing a potential government shutdown and everything else.

And so for me, it was like, well, let's all work together as a team. Let's try to push our agenda forward by taking 80% instead of pushing for 100. But it got out of control. And I really write around. I mean, it was getting out of control more every day, but 2016, 2017 is where it excited me. So the book, I imagine, will scoop some of Liz Cheney's memoir, Oath and Honor, that's coming out, which is a different title. It's set to come out later this year. You two are, of course, the two of...

10 House Republicans who would have impeached Trump after January 6th. You also served on the January 6th committee together. And you've paid the price of not being in office anymore and not being in the House. Do you two talk often? Some. We talked a lot, obviously, during the January 6th stuff. I will say Liz Cheney, there were so many people, I could go through every member of that committee and say, you know, how they helped the committee or what they did well, what everybody's shortcoming was.

Liz Cheney was dogged to get to the facts. And I think, and you could see this in her testimonies or opening statements and stuff, she was just always in on it. So we would be in touch all the time. I mean, there'd be things that were coming out that she already knew about that we had discovered that we were, you know, I was then going to find out in this committee meeting.

So, yeah, we're still in touch a little bit now, but she's obviously been busy writing, and we have our own lives. So you don't have, like, a club? We don't have a clique. No, you don't have a clique. We do. In fact, there's a text chain that sort of still exists of all the people that voted to impeach. Oh. And this actually started with, like, hey, you know, initially I think we had, like, 20 people on the chain, and then the people that didn't vote to impeach, we kind of got rid of them. And, yeah.

And so we went through that way. You got like misery and company a little bit. - What was on that chain?

What were the details? Saucy details? Yeah, I'm sure it wasn't saucy. It was a lot of like... If it was, say please. Go ahead. It was just a lot of, why is Kevin McCarthy going down to Mar-a-Lago to meet with Donald Trump? Right. I can't believe this person's doing that. And, you know, it was just a lot of like that. And, you know, there'd be some discussions when we were all making a decision whether we'd run again or not. No dank memes. No. What's that? No, I'm not going to explain it to you. I'm not explaining dank memes to you. So...

Talk about the trajectory of your role different from Liz Cheney's because you are seen together. You were seen together on stage. What do you think you can do that she can't and vice versa? Well, I think...

we can both kind of feed off each other in terms of calling things out in the GOP and seeing how crazy it's become. She was a lawyer, and she is a lawyer, and so her ability to get into, when we were dealing with the January 6th stuff, to get into the facts, to say, okay, this actually constitutes the violation of the law. This is something that is obviously seeming wrong. Let's find out more. She could develop that in a way I couldn't. I don't have the ability to do that.

I think where I would bring a strength is I was able to kind of keep an eye on what was going on in like, I'll call it right-wing media, but like right-wing Twitter. And you'd see these like conspiracy theories that were boiling up that I can tell if it's going to become a bigger conspiracy theory. The example is like Rayette.

And I remember sitting in the committee telling people, we've got to push. Explain who he is. Explain who Ray Epps is. So Ray Epps, he's a guy that got caught up in the January 6th stuff. He looks like a Fed because he has a short haircut. So everybody has a short haircut, looks like a Fed evidently.

And there's a video where people... Can I say you look like a Fed? Yeah, I mean, I was. But there's a video where people are... He's like saying, we're going to go in the Capitol, and then people start chanting Fed, basically to CYA, cover their own backside. And then there's a point at the very beginning, or at the beginning of kind of the breach of the Capitol, where he whispers into somebody's ear. And that became a conspiracy theory that he is a Fed...

He actually launched this insurrection, therefore it's the FBI. Well, the truth is, he was whispering into the guy's ear, like, you don't need to do this. Like, we have to keep this tame. And anyway, but that became the whole conspiracy to prove that the FBI was behind this. And so I'd see these things grow, and I could...

call it out and say, as a committee, we have to take this on or we don't have to take this on. And then also, when I did the DOJ hearing, the Department of Justice hearing, was the fifth hearing, and that's where it came out that Donald Trump said to the DOJ, just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the Republican congressmen, which if you think about that is such an

a sad and amazing statement. It's like, just take a veneer of like, just say it's corrupt and then we can do the rest. I think it was important for a non-lawyer to lead that hearing because I don't know a lot of law terms and so we wouldn't get messed up in that. Okay. So, but there...

What about the other prominent Republicans, the so-called Trump resistance, the never-Trumpers? Should there be an alliance of those? Is Chris Christie your mascot, for example? I'm like a new Chris Christie fan, actually. It's been pretty interesting. Were you not an old one? You know,

Initially, no. We were pretty competitive because, remember, in 2016, he was the first to come out and endorse Trump. Right. I remember. Yeah. I think we all do. Yeah. But he's become, I mean, he's the one out there telling the truth, and I give that to him, and I'm very supportive of him. Here's what I think from an alliance perspective needs to happen. Yes, the old kind of the godfathers of Never Trump, the sons of Never Trump, the newer ones, you know, like me, the people that are yet to come, and frankly, Democrats...

left-wing, everything, we have to have an uncomfortable alliance on democracy. Because this is a moment... APPLAUSE

Sure, there's a lot of things that divide us, and there's a lot of issues like tax rates, whatever else, all these issues. We can discuss those for a long time if we have a democracy. And my concern right now is truly that we're at a point where we could see democracy fail. And so while somebody on the left and right may not agree on any issue at all, if they agree on democracy, that's where I think we need to see an uncomfortable alliance. It's not going to be easy, though. I'm not pretending like that's an easy thing. So...

The thing is, you need power to do this, presumably. So only two of the 10 House Republicans who have impeached Trump remain in Congress. Mitt Romney seems to be giving up, which we'll go into later. Going anti-Trump has been political suicide. It is, yeah. It is. Is the sacrifice worth it or just a waste? I think it's worthy because if—well, here's—let me answer that just from an individual perspective.

If I would have just tried to survive and become, you know, voted against impeachment, stayed kind of, like, we'll call it marginally pro-Trump, and somehow I survived through that. For me personally, and I'm not trying to say this to sound like anything but just the truth, I couldn't look at myself in the mirror. My kid's 20 months old, and I couldn't imagine him reading in a history book and reading his last name and being ashamed about it, right? And I have...

I have a lot of colleagues that I don't think can say that. That they're, you know, as long as their last name's not Smith or something, then you can blend in as a kid. But if you have a unique last name like Kinzinger, this is going to be a moment in history you read about. So for me, I couldn't. I couldn't do it. But the person who replaced you did shift to Trump, was quite centrist. Yeah. And then his father was definitely anti-Trump. Yeah, the hood. Darren the hood. Yeah.

Why would someone do that? Put yourself in his shoes. Because he won, and he's in your seat right now. It's survival and it's identity. All of us struggle with identity in our lives, like what am I, who am I, am I a congressman, or am I a father, or am I a journalist, whatever that is. And you have to find your identity as something beyond your job. Well, when it's something like Congress or Senate,

you know, House or Senate, anytime you go into a room, by the way, you're the center of attention. And imagine that for, that was my life for 12 or 13 years. Anytime you go, unless you're with the president, like you're the person everybody's looking at. That can be addictive. That power can be addictive. That attention can be addictive. And it's not addictive in a way that you ever get satisfied. You need more of it.

And so when that becomes your identity, and all of a sudden now you're faced with an existential crisis to your identity, I tell you the thing I have learned in all this is people fear losing their membership to the tribe, and they fear losing their identity more than I think they even fear death.

And I think that's what a lot of this is. People, and then over time, you can convince yourself that what you're doing is right. You can convince yourself of it. And once you get this far in, you know, seven years of Trump, it is impossible now to turn and say, okay, I'm now against Trump. Why? Let's think of Vietnam. There was a point at which we lost 10,000 men in Vietnam.

And it's like, we can't leave now, we've already lost 10,000 people. Then we lost 20,000, we can't, the sunken cost fallacy. If you spent seven years of your life justifying Donald Trump and everything he's done to now turn against that, you have to admit to yourself that for seven years you were enabling corruption. Well, what's the price? I mean, you talked about the idea of losing your identity, but you all have gotten death threats, threats phasing your lives, your families. Has that stopped?

Yeah, because they don't know where to find me anymore. So I think that's helped. Your name's on the marquee out front, so... Look at the comments. You'll see them there. Look, I mean, it was...

You know, when you tell somebody that you have a 24-hour security detail, it sounds cool until you get one. And then, you know, it's things like, okay, meeting my friends at the bar after votes, for instance, in Congress. Now I have to take into account I have three security people with me. And, you know, what does that mean for their night? Everybody's now looking at us. So that was an inconvenience. Having a cop sitting outside my house because my wife and kid were there is an inconvenience. I mean, we got letters that said...

You know, my wife got one that said, you're married to the devil, literally, and we find it blasphemous that you named your son Christian, the son of the devil. And I mean, you get that stuff for like wishing that she would be killed by traffic and my son would be killed too. I mean, these are real people that would send this stuff. And I'll tell you honestly, I...

I didn't think it affected me until I got out of Congress and I got time to just get some distance. And then you realize the toll it took. And I describe it as like being in war. You know, you can operate if you're in the trenches. By the way, we think of the people in Ukraine fighting for their freedom today. You know, the toll they're going to have to take. When you're fighting, you can do it. When the guns go silent is when you have to deal with the toll it took. Do you still have that happen?

No, I don't get the threats as much because, again, I mean, truly they don't know. You can't send something to my office. Right. But I certainly am conscious of the fact that at any given time there are a number of people that would kill me if they met me. When you think about this, you have zeroed yourself out of politics. And do you think there's a political future for you?

I don't know, and honestly, I'm saying this genuinely, I don't really care as much. I care from the perspective of, because if there's no future for somebody like me, it means that kind of broader movement of sanity doesn't have room. There's nothing about me right now that's plotting or planning my return to politics, although I'll accept the fact that it very well may happen. But, thank you. In what capacity? Thank you.

What's that? In what capacity? I don't know. Definitely not the House again. So it would have to be something, I don't know, governor, senator, president. It would have to be. That's the only options left because I'm not running for city council. But look, with my country first movement, we've been able to stay very engaged in fighting for sanity among the GOP, sanity all over the place.

I feel politically homeless, though, at the moment. I still call myself a Republican because I'm not going to give up that title. But I haven't voted Republican in three years. I probably will not vote Republican at all in the next election. And I feel politically homeless.

So, but the base of the party is very far away from you. Yeah. So what if the issue is, in fact, the voters? A New York Times deep dive poll in August found that nearly 40% of Republicans are unwavering MAGA Trumpers. Yeah. And that the moderate establishment, also known as the never-Trumper camp, people like you, make up less than 15% of the party. That's fewer than one in eight Republicans. These establishment voices are over-representing D.C., New York, media circles, centrists,

Thinking they matter, do they matter in this Republican Party? I think it matters in the extent that it's a message that has to be out there. Look, if Donald Trump, which everybody's innocent until proven guilty, right? When he goes to jail, I think he deserves it. Let's just be honest. I've seen all this. He deserves every ounce of that. But

When he goes to jail and people see all this evidence, could that make a difference? It's possible. You've seen around the edge some cracks in the GOP. But look, I'm not going to sit here and pretend like this. We're not even the establishment anymore, by the way. MAGA is now the establishment. I'm not going to pretend like sane voices are going to somehow come out and win anytime soon. I don't think they are. And I think you're seeing a massive political realignment happen. But I know this. We never predicted...

Donald Trump actually running for and winning the presidency, anything can happen, but we have to continue to be loud about it. And in my mind, it's we have to continue to fight for honor, for the right thing, for Ukraine. I mean, there is no cleaner fight...

So, I'm going to get to Ukraine in a minute. What do you think motivates that 80, it's actually 86% now, that find Trump's message more compelling than yours? So, it's two things, I think. Number one is because the people they trust. So, if you think of like this disparate world we live in where if you're on the left, you trust left voices. If you're on the right, you trust right voices. When Donald Trump, for instance, gets arrested...

and every other voice in that ecosphere that people trust is too scared to say that he broke the law and they say it's a witch hunt, of course they're going to rally around Donald Trump because everybody they trust is saying that he's a victim here. Because that's what happens when you don't have leadership. You have people that change and you have no leadership and so of course they're going to love Donald Trump. I think the other thing is he really plays well to base emotions.

How many of you guys are on, probably all of you to some extent, are on some email list somewhere that now you get 500 things a day that are trying to raise money? Well, if you end up on a Republican email list, and this was something I wish we could have flushed out more on the committee. We didn't have time to do it, really.

which is between Election Day and January 6th, the radicalization that occurred because of the fundraising emails. We had witnesses that came in and told us they were writing knowingly false emails to raise money. They'd have to write 15 a day, and it had to raise whatever, $20,000 per email.

And so if you go on and your email constantly says, Pelosi's trying to kill you, all this stuff, that radicalizes. And we have played with the dark force of fundraising through fear, and it's gotten out of hand. You can do that for a cycle or two. You can't do that for a generation, and that's what's happened.

So former Republican strategist and also a member of Trump, Stuart Stevens, wrote in his 2020 book, It Was All a Lie, that racism was an animating force, but the GOP has always lurked in the Republican underbelly. Do you agree with him? To an extent. To an extent. I think...

If you say right away, is there overt racism? No. Is there class, I guess, anger? Yes. Is there in the Midwest, for instance, or anywhere besides basically the coasts, do people feel left out? Yes. But I do think, and again, I wouldn't put it as a majority of Republicans, but I do think race plays an issue in some of this stuff. Look,

If we had a lot of immigration but it was coming from Ireland, do you think people would be as upset? Truthfully, I don't. I don't think they would be. Well, back in the 1910s. Yeah, well, they were back then. But I think some of the animating issues with, okay, why are we... And by the way, we need better border security. We have to be clear about that. But we also need real immigration reform in this country. And...

But I do think some of what can animate the anger, not the concern, the anger, is because the people coming here aren't white. And I think that does animate some of it. So where do you think this base shifted? Because it did shift over time, and it was actually...

Long time and then short, because some research draws a line from the Tea Party with its conspiracy theories about Obama and his birth and its populist fervor straight to Meghan Trump. You had a front row seat to this. You won your seat in Congress in a Tea Party sweep in 2010. You were backed by the movement, considered one of its rising stars. Oh, how times change. Well, I know. Talk to me about one...

your own accountability in this, because when you start down that road, it can go very fast, especially when fueled by social media and certain media, different medias. What's your accountability in this, and what do you think the Trump and the Tea Party have in common? So it's a great question, and I spend a lot of time in the book called Renegade, by the way. Renegade. You guys didn't pick that up. With Lorenzo Lamas. That's right, Lorenzo Lamas.

I talk a lot about this. It's a really good show. I watched it. I'm going to have to go look it up now. Yeah. Now that you are one. You buy the book, you get a free DVD. Yeah. You and Liz Cheney roaming the badlands. Yeah, there we go. That's a good book. I would bring her to the badlands. I'm just thinking, yeah, I'd bring her to the badlands. Well, first off, look, one of the things I have the ability to look back on now is to see...

It's what I just kind of talked about. You know, in the early kind of 2010s, yeah, we were playing with fire a little bit. We thought the fire was controllable. It's like this permanent underground fire in a coal mine in Pennsylvania that every now and then they puncture.

and it pops up and it feeds it more. And it's like, that's kind of what it was. And I can look back and see that. And I can look back and see my role. Now, I can say with a straight face, I didn't play a lot on fear because one of the things I learned early is if you actually speak and try to more inspire people or, you know, I had Hillary Clinton in front of the committee on the Benghazi stuff, and I actually asked professional nice questions instead of berating her. And you get more attention and I think more effect with that.

But I'm not going to pretend like we didn't, you know, I wasn't part of kind of using that fear to raise money, which became so important to build the team. And so I do play a role in that. And I accept that. And I should have voted. And look, here's the other thing I'm ashamed of. I voted against the first impeachment. And I did that against like everything that was screaming inside of me saying, Adam, you know, this guy obviously violation, particularly on foreign policy issues, particularly with an ally that needs our help.

And I voted against it to survive. So that is to my shame. What was the moment you did, what happened? Were you going to do it and all your aides said you can't or? Yeah, I don't want to say I was ever at the point where I was convinced I was going to do it, but I was wrestling with it.

And, well, Nancy Pelosi gave me an out when she basically said we have to get this vote done before the turn of the new year. Because, and the reasoning was, if we do it next year, it's an election year. I think it was a pretty lame excuse, honestly. But that gave me and others the ability to say, well, she's rushing this.

And boy, this is such a serious moment, we can't rush it. That's not why I voted no. Even though I said it, I didn't vote no because of that. And in all my statements, I'm like, I'm very concerned about what happened in Ukraine. I voted no because that was an out. And that's to my shame. I don't dwell on that in my own heart.

And you see that all the time. Were you ever close to doing it? Like when John McCain did the health care, remember when he goes like... Yeah, yeah. Was I ever what? Close to being a maverick like that. I've been close, yeah. I was close there too. No, and I'll say, like again, it's with that moment, you just... I see it now and it gives me an ability and I try to call this out on all of my social media. The day before the second impeachment, I thought we were going to have 25 people vote yes.

Some of those, Mike Gallagher, Nancy Mace, right? Others that I thought were going to vote yes.

By the time impeachment came, I was surprised we got 10. Because the thing I noticed the difference is, is those that were concerned about their reelection were the ones that ultimately voted no. And every one of them did not vote no because they didn't think Donald Trump did anything wrong. They voted no because they found a technical excuse to vote no on. I've done that 100 times. They do it 100 times. And I just want to give that as a tool to you. When you find somebody giving a technical excuse, it means they're violating what they think inside.

We'll be back in a minute. So talking about where we're going, let's move on to the presidential election coming up 2024. I know you've said you're the only person, I think it's who'd rather, the only person you'd vote, not vote for more than Trump is Satan, by the way. I said the only time I'd vote for Trump is if his opponent is actual Satan. Let me make an argument. I might go third party then. Let me...

Satan can be very charming. Maybe, yes. So Satan, Satan is your, I mean, real Satan. Yeah, real Satan, not like fake Satan, like real Satan. Maybe I'd vote for Trump. Right. Other than that, no. Probably Satan's not real, but okay. Republican voters don't share your sentiment. Trump is acting like he's a de facto candidate, which he seems to be. Who in the primary field, and it's a wide open one, can actually defeat him? Or is it, again, an exercise in futility?

They will all back him later, by the way, with the exception probably of Chris Christie. Yeah, I think the exception of Chris Christie and Asa Hutchinson and Will Hurd, I think, look, the only way, the only possible way Donald Trump could lose is, again, if all this, he goes to trial, all this stuff comes out and it has an impact around the edges and, and this is the big problem, if everybody else but one person drops out. And that's the problem. I mean, if you look right now, let's say it's,

The latest in New Hampshire, I think he's at like 38. Nationwide, he's probably, he's like 58 or whatever. Imagine if there's only one opponent and it's now 58-42, all of a sudden you have a horse race. The problem is it's not that easy because if Ron DeSantis drops out, probably a good majority of those people go to Donald Trump because DeSantis is Donald Trump, just a different version of him. So I think, look, it's going to be tough.

I think there is a path. I don't know what that path is, but I've also learned there are times I've predicted things that just completely didn't come true, and I hope this is one of them, but it appears that it's going to be Donald Trump. And that's why I stress so much the importance of this, like,

what I call this uneasy alliance, because to my fellow Republicans that are as concerned as I am, look, you know, regardless of how you feel about Joe Biden's policies, and I think his policies have actually been decent, but regardless of that, we can survive Joe Biden. We can't survive Donald Trump. We cannot as a country survive him. So the thing is, they will all back him afterwards. Yeah. Do you think any of them will break away?

No, I don't. I mean, it's because you see it in the, you know, like Nikki Haley, for instance, has a good debate where she calls out Ramaswamy and she does, you know, and then in the next time she's on some TV show talking about how, of course, she'll support Donald Trump over Biden's failed policies. And it's like, look, here's the thing I can sympathize with is in order to have a chance to win the Republican primary, you have to say that. The problem is,

When people keep saying that is the reason Donald Trump's in the lead. When Tim Scott says it, you know, that Donald Trump is a victim of DOJ witch hunt and you believe Tim Scott, you're going to believe then that Trump is the victim of that. So it's a catch-22 that I can't give these people advice out of. I just know for me when I made the conscious decision like it's the end of my political career but I feel good about it, like that brought peace to me that I don't think these folks can have.

Because they want something else. You have a new substack, correct? Yes, I do. As of yesterday. As of yesterday. A new substack, yeah. And your first, the first column you did was called Politics and Punchability, which you said Ron DeSantis is doomed by his own face. Now, you're using a metaphorical punch to the face. Yes, don't go punch people. Right, and thank you for not having any women on that list. I thought that would have been distasteful.

But you had a bunch of people. You had Tucker Carlson, obviously. You had a bunch of, who else did you have on? I think, did you have a vet? Yeah, there's Ted Cruz for sure. You had Lawrence O'Donnell. You had a bunch. Talk, what was your point of punchability? You guys know what a punch me face is, right? I know what it is, yeah.

So it's weird because if you look at politics, like, whoever has a punch-me face never gets elected president anyway for some reason. It's like the old test of, like, would you have a beer with this person? Right. And for some reason, jerkery or...

ass-hattery or whatever is distilled in somebody and it comes out in their face and you can just tell. And so the point isn't to encourage people to go punch a politician. Please don't punch your neighborhood politician. But it is to say, if you had to punch a politician, right, and you know, who would it be? And Ted Cruz would top that list, I think. But I...

And Tom Cotton, also. I didn't include him. I wish you would use ass-hattery versus punchability. I'm a mom. I like that. But talk about that idea of DeSantis. You mentioned him. He's floundering. It's because he has a punchable face? Oh, he has a punchable face. Because he was the number one. He was the Scott Walker. Yeah, but he's...

His punchability and punchable faceness is a side note too. And I think the reason he has a punchable face is because he's just not, you know that what he's doing is performing.

I mean, for instance, again on Ukraine, he was pro-Ukraine when he was in the House. Now he's like out here being this like irate Tucker Carlson light. He was pro-vaccine, then he was against it because it became popular. Like this is what I disrespect in politics more than anything is people that don't really believe things and change. You got to play that to an extent. I'm not naive and that's part of a republic thing.

But if you're getting rid of your core principles, that to me just makes you punchable. Because like, you can be the furthest left-wing politician or the furthest right-wing politician. If you truly believe what you're saying, I respect that, even if I'll debate it. It's when you become a charlatan that, and if you notice, everybody on that list was a charlatan. So you think he has a chance to recover? He was, he's in the second place. I think if his chance is if,

If Trump goes out soon, which is not likely, but if Trump goes out soon, I think he still has that aura of being Trump's backup. It'll be him and Vivek Ramaswamy fighting this out, but I think that's his chance. Every day that goes by, though, I think there's much less chance. I think he's going to have a hard time even surviving in Florida at this point because...

I mean, look at the whole thing of his politics of immigration. You know, like, I'm going to start flying people and deporting them. I think he was deporting people out of Texas on Florida's dime, which is dumb. And...

At the point when Florida gets hit by a hurricane and they're begging for people to come work to recover the state. I mean, this is all stuff that, like, let's think through. And you can play base politics for a little bit, but eventually I think people see through it. Right. Okay. You mentioned trans-legal woes. Big open question here. The former president has four indictments, the Hush Money case, Documents case, election interference in Fulton County. He's a total of 91 felony counts. If he's convicted— And he's officially a rapist.

Yes, yes, that is true. Sorry to leave that one out. If he's convicted, will that ever stop him? I'm going to make the point, we're sitting in Texas where we just saw your attorney general come back and acquitted and voters are not at all bothered. Look, I don't... Oh, sorry. Sorry, did I get that wrong?

Some voters. Some voters. Some voters. I'm sorry. Sorry. Okay. His voters. Some... Not Austin. Okay. Got it. Got it. Look, I think what happens... So if he gets... Let's say he gets convicted...

I don't think it makes much of a difference in the GOP. And again, I think the reason, yes, it's like this rally around the flag, but everybody that has a chance to say the truth is sitting around like too scared to say it. And so, again, you naturally believe if all these people I trust are saying it's a witch hunt, it's a witch hunt. And so then you're going to rally against the guy that's being witch hunted. But...

if he's convicted, he does not win the general election because there are still enough Americans, over 50%, what do you need, 53% probably with the electoral colleges it is, that will not vote for Donald Trump because of that. I still have deep faith in the power of democracy and this republic in a general election. Primaries, not so much, but in a general election, I do. But I don't say that to my Democratic friends to say, you guys can just chillax for a while because we're going to be fine.

This is a tight race between Biden and Trump right now. Last poll had Trump up one point. Don't take this for granted. So why do you think that is? There's a lot of talk, the race is for him to be Trump versus Biden. A lot of talk recently, medially, about the need for Biden to step aside, his age, among others. I did a whole panel on it this week on the show. Do you have a point of view on whether Biden is the right candidate to go up against Trump? Or could Democrats?

Should Democrats get someone else? Well, I don't know. Like, I think he's got every right to run again. And I'm going to say this. Look, I don't necessarily agree with everything he's passed. But he has actually been one of the most effective in terms of passing things as president. I mean, the infrastructure bill, you know, his support for Ukraine. And thank God he announced a TACMS today. I think that's important. But...

So from a successful perspective, he's been successful. And so I'll leave that to the Democrats because I think there's going to be, I think a primary within the Democrats would be very brutal because there's going to be, it may be quite damaging. But I'll say this.

Which is, don't discount people when they say they're concerned about Biden's age. Because I think when you discount that, you do it at your own peril. Because it is a concern I hear from Republicans, yes. From independents, yes. And Democrats. And Trump, is that the same concern you hear about Trump? Only three years younger? Trump's just psycho.

Okay. I mean, honestly. But, no, Trump's... The funny thing is they're the same age. They're also younger. They're close, right? Three years. Okay, and they're younger than Romney, who looks like he's 24. I mean, that's what good living does for you, I guess. Yes, he's a handsome man. So... And I'm saying this as a lesbian. He's indeed a handsome man. He must be really handsome. Yeah. Not that handsome. All right, so...

There's a lot of talk about third-party cannons. Do you see that happening? I don't know. I think it could. I'm concerned about it. Like, here's...

My view on the third party thing is the best time to do it is when you have two candidates that are kind of the same. So you think back of like Clinton-Bush, when no matter who won, Clinton or Bush, kind of the country would still be in the same trajectory. That's when you can play around with third candidates or third parties. The problem is that's when they don't have any traction. I am really concerned that a third party no labels ticket, for instance, is only going to pull more votes away from the Democrats than Republicans. Right.

Would that be helpful for someone like you or Liz Cheney? No, I don't think so. She said she'll leave the GOP if Trump wins in 2024. If Trump wins in 2024, would you? Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, I haven't voted Republican in a few years, but I'm unwilling to let them run me out of my title right now.

Okay. You've also been highly critical of the media in interviewing Trump in this race. You were frustrated with CNN's interview, as were many, conducted by Caitlin Collins. More recently, you spoke up after Kristen Welker moderated a conversation with Trump for Meet the Press. The last one was not live, was accompanied by context sections aiming to refute Trump's claims later on the website. I thought that was problematic. How do you think the media should cover Trump? Because I think you can't not...

interview him if he's-- - Yeah, I mean it's tough. You can't not interview him, but I also think he is an insurrectionist that tried to overthrow the government. And so while I don't think you can ignore him, because he is the Republican, half the country probably is gonna vote for him, I think things like, so Kristen's interview was actually not too bad. She did a good job. The problem I had with it was the fact checking was on the website later.

And if I think there can, is there a moment to call him out directly, to print on the factual differences? It's one thing if a politician says something different, like, you know, I voted against raising taxes and maybe he voted for it once. And, you know, that's one thing. When you say, like, I'm going to pardon the January 6th people, January 6th was a peaceful day, this kind of stuff, that's a whole different level. So as a First Amendment advocate, I'll leave that to the press, but I'm also going to

exercise my anger, frankly, when, you know, for instance, I have a contract with CNN. I made it known when they had the big town hall because it's like you're putting in front of a reaffirming audience these lies. And I think that's the piece is how do you fact check that? If fact checks even matter. Is it possible?

I don't know. It is. Oh, it is possible to fact check. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to get that interview. Um, let me do a lightning round very quickly. All right. How do you think the Republicans are handling the looming government shutdown? You said on CNN, we're headed towards it. So bad. So bad. Okay. So bad. Um, uh,

Like you, if he does bridge moderate Republicans and Democrats, he'll probably lose his job. Right. If he ends up cutting a deal, which I think ultimately he'll have to do, he will have to fight. The Democrats should be extracting stuff from him because he will ultimately need them to save his speakership. But this impeachment inquiry, I think, poisoned the well. All right. The proposed spending does include continued aid for Ukraine. Explain why there's such a resistance to military aid for Ukraine among Republicans. Tucker Carlson and because

Anything that is considered anti-West right now is kind of cool among some circles of the GOP. Okay. Do you think it's wise for the House to be pursuing impeachment investigation to Biden? Not unless you have proof that something happened, and they don't have that, and they've made it very clear they don't have that. And so I said, by the way, a year ago when I was still in the House, I said, next year they're going to vote to impeach Biden every month.

I was wrong. They just, they waited a few months, but the pressure was too strong and they have to do it. And what does that reveal about the power in Congress, especially the power of Matt Gaetz's MAGA win? It goes to show that if you're willing to burn the place down, you have the most power. You know, it's like if somebody walks, I hate this example, but bear with me. If somebody walked into a room you were in and they had a gun, they're the most powerful person. Not because they actually have power, but because they're willing to use it. And that's what you have right now. How long do you think McCarthy can hold on to his speakership?

Oh, this is going to be a tough one. I think, but I thought he wouldn't make it through the debt limit. So take that for what it is. He actually did. I don't think he's going to last more than a couple months unless he pulls a miracle. And the Democrats have to save his speakership, I think. And I don't know if they have the energy to do that or the desire. How much does Romney's departure from the Senate hurt? It hurts a lot. I think one of the biggest damages to the Senate was the loss of John McCain. I traveled with him.

And it was like a, he was like an American Secretary of State everywhere he went. And I think Romney, it's the same kind of loss. All right. So you want to keep your Republican name in name only. That makes me a rhino. Right, exactly. I hate all these phrases. What are the three issues do you think the Republicans are focusing in right now? And what should the three issues be besides John Fetterman's shorts? Yeah. Yeah.

I am pissed about that, but... Oh, come on. So what are the three things that, like, they should be focused on, I think? Yeah. I'm just saying, you're lucky I'm here in hard pants, but go ahead.

I think if I somehow could lead the Republicans and say three things, I'd say, let's focus on reform of government, not just cutting government, reform government, make it 21st century, a strong national defense, and infrastructure, which actually I think all three of those are what used to be big Republican priorities. What are they focusing on right now? They're focused on impeachment, outrage, Disney, wokeism, and... John Fetterman's shorts. And John Fetterman's shorts, yeah. Okay, can I end with one last question? Donald Trump is sitting here.

What would you then say to him? Without punching his face? I would never punch his face. I don't think there is anything I could say to him that would change his mind or make a difference. I would just express how deeply, how my deep-seated belief that history will judge him as a complete stain on this country. And he needs to know that. Because...

I would love for him to see the light someday, but I think there is going to be a day when he is alone with his thoughts and realizing that his legacy is going to be complete garbage and he did nothing to help this country. That doesn't seem very nice. It's not nice. Okay. Everybody except Donald Trump deserves your sympathy. Okay. Adam Kinzinger. Thank you. Thanks for doing this for me. Thank you.

Cara, did your phone ring in that interview? It did. My watch did. I didn't put my watch on theater. My phone is quiet. I know. I forgot. I always put my watch on theater and I didn't. My apologies. It's okay. We forgive you. It was spam. I'm getting a lot of spam on my cell phone now.

Me too, by the way. Do you think that's something? No, it's just spam. They figure it out. They're so clever. They should run the country. I'm not sure they don't. Anyways, two corrections we should make about that interview. One, it's Ramaswamy, not Ramashwamy, as he kept calling him. He did. And two, Romney, who it turns out you have a crush on, did not know, Cara, I think, is

is not older than Trump and Biden. He's 76, a year younger than Trump. No, I think I knew that. Did I say older? It was Adam Kinzinger said. Oh, yes. No, he's old. I know. You didn't have anything of substance on that. You just wanted to talk about how hot Romney was. No, I did not. I just said he's handsome. He is. Come on. It's a fact. He's a handsome man. He looks great. He looks great. Scott Galloway loves him more than I do, thinks he's a handsome man. But we had just taped a pivot. So that was top of mind, Scott's man crush. You know, Scott and I share a type.

Okay. I don't want to go into this. Let's move on. Let's move on. Okay. Another fact check. He says he's not plotting or planning a return to politics. Over, under on whether that's true? He can't. He lives in Texas. He's just, no. He's put himself in the worst. I mean, if he wanted to. He could be an appointee. You know, if he wanted to plot a return, he'd move to New York or California and he could plot a return.

Not California, if you want. Well, if congressman, certainly you could. Yeah, he could. Yeah, he'd have to pick a state that actually can't tolerate decent Republicans. So he can't from Texas, no way. Texas Tribune Festival is always funny because it's such not a Texas room, I guess, or it's not a, it's a Austin room. Yes, it is. Like a lot of blue cities in red states, North Carolina has a couple like that. But in that particular state, Austin, maybe parts of Houston are more liberal. Yeah.

And in such a room, someone like Kinzinger got lots of applause, most notably about any conjectures that Trump ends up in prison. That was the biggest applause probably in that room. But the first one he got was this idea that there's...

this uncomfortable alliance on democracy. Yes. He essentially said, I don't really like you. You don't like me, but we all care about democracy. I think that was kind of the message. And I think most people, like at this point, that's good. Like that's really good. Just hearing that conversation and, you know, renegade maverick, I think he was looking for the word maverick, found the word renegade. Kara, you're such a

word checker with him. Well, that's what it means. Sorry, I don't... Nobody at his publishing house look up the word for this. It literally means traitor, but okay, fine. It means renege. Down the list, it does also mean what he says it means. Yes, way down on the list, but the actual meaning is a traitor. I get why it's a cool sounding word, but it doesn't mean what he thinks it means. But in this world where America is so...

Like we really love Mavericks, right? And we tell stories about people like John McCain being a hero. Sure. It's interesting that we celebrate these people and yet nobody wants to be them. We should see more people break out of party and talk about big ideas. I would do that. Are you going to run, Kara?

No, but I would do that if I felt strongly about it. I would move to doing the right thing rather than preserving my own skin like that. The parties have become almost like devoid of principle. And so it would be very attractive, I think, to voters to see people who have stronger principles than party allegiance. Yeah, I think right now we're seeing that. You've seen it on the Democratic Party. Right now it really is sort of occupied around Trump, the cult of Trump in the Republican Party. I think most people are very perplexed about not even...

having a moment of doubt about someone who is so obviously unqualified. I think the future hopefully holds more people like McCain, the daddy, not daughter, or Cheney, the daughter, not the daddy, who will cross the line and do the right things. And I must think, what is the future for someone like him? Not him particularly, but people like him, the moderate Republicans, because he was pretty sanguine about the idea that

and somber about the idea that there is no future for the establishment Republicans. At some point, there will be a political figure, but I don't know where they're from, who people like better than they like Trump. Like, they'll get their sense. They're like, oh, you're right. We like this person. And I think there'll be, like Obama, there'll be a political figure that is so compelling that,

that, and not to say Adam Kinsler isn't compelling, but he's not like, you know, writ large, there will be a John McCain-like character. There will be a Obama-like character or a Reagan-like character, and it will change. That's what will happen. Our history is littered with that. So there's so much talk of a third party right now from Andrew Yang and no labels party forward, et cetera. But I actually do think that there is

given that independents are the largest block, if you can get to open primaries in a lot of places, I do also think that there's value in an independent party down the line as a more institutional correction. It's never happened, but sure. It can't just be celebrity politicians. I mean, is that really our future? Well, yes, it can be. That's not true. It certainly can be. Is that our future for the rest of life? Oh, gosh. Could be. I hope you're wrong. Third parties have had a long and...

everyone has these hopefulness you know i've been around for lots of them whether it was john anderson or uh h ross perot or ralph nader we're 250 years in now and it's not happening so i don't know we'll see ah there's so much hope for change kara well there will be change will be a different republican party in 100 years there'll be a different democratic party in that conversation hearing him speak about the death threats he faced right this is

This is also a feature of our modern world, in addition to celebrity politicians, is people who pay a high price for saying something. Y'all Roth, who just was on the show, Maria Ressa, who I just saw yesterday, we've had on the show. There's such a cost for public service. I will be curious to see if more young people want to be part of this or not. There will. I believe in people like that. I do too. I think hopefully it causes the best people, people with the most integrity, people willing to take the risks. That is correct. To do the job.

All right. Well, on that hopeful note, read us out. Today's show was produced by Naeem Araza, Christian Castro-Osel, Megan Cunane, and Megan Burney. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher and Jamal Knox, and to Evan Smith and the whole team at the Texas Tribune Festival. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan.

Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're prowling the Badlands with Lorenzo Lamas and Liz Cheney. If not, you're on his hit list. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.