Christiane Amanpour on Covering This War
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On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Join Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll, and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet, and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app today and earn your spot at the festival. Learn more at globalcitizen.org slash bots. It's on!

Hi, everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. And I'm Naeem Araza. Today, we have journalist and CNN anchor Krishan Ampour joining us.

We actually taped with her on Tuesday to understand the situation in the Middle East where 1,400 Israelis have died, almost 200 remain hostage. And at the time we're taping, 3,500 Palestinians have died. It's a precarious situation and so many people are at risk, including these 200 hostages who've been taken by Hamas and are being used as shields.

We should note that a lot has happened since we actually taped with Christian just in the last 24 hours. Yes, shortly after we hung up with Christian, there was a massive attack on a hospital in Gaza. Palestinians say it was Israel. Israeli defense forces said it was an Islamic jihad rocket. The U.S., including President Biden, is now saying that it confirms the Israeli position.

There is a lot of fog of war happening here, and it's going to be a topic that we talk about with Krishan Amonpour in this episode. It's also something that we will discuss with

panelists on a conversation that we'll have on Monday around how to make sense of information and disinformation in this war. This has obviously been a huge challenge in these kinds of unfolding situations, and it's a very hard job for journalists to navigate. And we've already seen that in this context where unsubstantiated claims about

beheaded children made their way to the White House and then had to be walked back by the White House, by Israel, and by CNN. But one thing we do know for sure is that

There's so much civilian suffering that has happened, and that doesn't seem to be stopping anytime soon. It's a time when you have to be very careful as a journalist. And someone like Christiane Amanpour, who is considered the top level journalist internationally, is trying very hard to get to the truth and talk to as many people as possible. But it still is incredibly difficult given how tense things are in the region. Another thing that's happened in the last 24 hours is that President Biden landed in

Yeah, he's visiting there to show solidarity with the Israeli government. He's also there to, he said, ask hard questions, which is exactly what he should do. Jordan canceled the summit that was expected between Biden and Arab leaders, which is a pretty remarkable sign for a close U.S. ally and certainly changed the president's plans just as he was about to take off. Arab nations have a strong position on this. Protests are unfolding around the Muslim world today.

and Putin went to see Xi in China. A lot of major political moves happening right now in the world. It feels very fragile. Yeah, I do think it's important that Biden went to show solidarity and to show that he's paying attention because it's where the world's leaders should be focusing. I think that the West has turned away from this region in the last couple of decades, we've seen, and particularly after the Arab Spring with a pivot to Asia. But

There is a big role now to see, you know, who is going to solve this problem. There are reports that also they're going to allow finally humanitarian aid into Gaza. That's correct. So we'll see what happens. But as all this is unfolding in the world, Christiane Amanpour is a person who is really trying to make sense of it. And I think the way the conversation is playing out in social media, across circles, I mean, there's a lot of conversation where

People are saying, oh, context doesn't matter, nuance doesn't matter, or people are complaining about both sides of them. My whole thesis is we don't really know what's happening here. It's just that when you don't have full information, it makes it really difficult to do a good job. And I think it's not just that we don't know. Journalists have to evaluate information.

all the information and extract all the information that they can to make sense of a situation and a story. Context and nuance are the job. I think the stakes for the world are very high, and that means journalists have to go that extra mile to make sure that they are accurate and complete in what they cover. That's true. Let's take a quick break, and we'll be back with Christiane Amanpour. Thanks for joining us, Christiane.

I'm really pleased to be with you, Cara. So I've wanted to talk to you for a while. As you know, I've been writing you and all kinds of stuff. And we were going to talk about truthful, not neutral. But we have to start talking about the Hamas attack and the coverage. The brutal attack was a surprise to Israel, which it did not expect such a broad ranging assault. More than 1300 people were killed in the attack. We now know about 200 hostages were taken. Where were you when you learned of the attack? And what were your first thoughts?

I was actually coming back from a really successful and upbeat trip to the United States. I just interviewed Hillary Clinton. I had just met with one of the Iranian hostages, a friend of mine, Siamak Namazi, who, thank God, had been released along with the others. I'd had dinner with him. And I was feeling really, really good. Landed on Saturday morning in London around 6 a.m.,

and shortly thereafter, clearly was flooded with the news of what had happened. And I just couldn't believe my ears. I couldn't believe what I was hearing, that this organization had assaulted Israel in an unprecedented way, in a three-pronged attack. It was by land, sea, and air. And I'm like, how is this possible? And of course, at the time,

We didn't know the full extent of the horror that unfolded. That became more apparent, obviously, as the day wore on. But I went pretty much straight into work and I did on fumes just about, you know, three hours of solo anchoring in a situation that is highly combustible, highly emotional, highly outrageous, and trying to be factual, trying to be, you know,

You know, a journalist, you know, I'm a journalist. I'm here to try to report what happened and get the interviews that I can. Explain the challenge of covering a situation where social media reactions move faster than reporting and fact-checking can, and when official sources, including the Israeli government and Hamas, are embroiled in a war.

Well, I think what I would say about social media in this case is that because we as a world have become so tribalized and so polarized, and because this particular, before this horror, before this slaughter, this particular conflict, Israel-Palestine, and I'm not talking about Hamas, I'm talking about Israel and the Palestinians in general, the accepted, internationally recognized Palestinians, the Palestinian Authority,

It has become such a hot button issue that whatever anybody says about anything is

It gets reverberated and discussed and judged by so many people so that with social media, that becomes intensely, exponentially exaggerated or rather amplified. And that is incredibly difficult because you are trying to report a news story, which is horrendous in itself, but you have to try to block out the extraneous noise and

the political noise, the tribal noise on all sides. And I use that in the accepted usage, as we now know, that social media has encouraged and increased tribalism around the world, politicization, polarization. So in the midst of trying to cover something that's so serious and so off the charts, really,

it's hard to try to keep your balance as a journalist. When you're doing that, you know, this 9-11 analogy, do you think it sticks in that regard? I do. I've asked many Israelis as the days and weeks or the days have passed now more than a week since it happened October 7th. You know, first you all said it was like Yom Kippur, right? It was like Pearl Harbor, caught off guard, intelligence failure, right?

Then it was like 9-11. It was, you know, this slaughter out of the blue of civilians mostly, just when you thought that actually, like the Americans thought, that they didn't necessarily have that bigger problem that they were going to have the homeland attacked back in 9-11. The Israelis clearly were not prepared for that either. So there was that on top of Yom Kippur. And now on top of that,

Israel has said that actually given the outcome, given the fact that at this point 1,400 are known to have been killed and some 200 taken hostage of Israelis and other nationals, but mostly Israelis, it's the worst single day of attacks since the Holocaust. So words like pogrom. So it gets more and more intense and serious now.

And I do remember talking to, in the early days, the former Prime Minister Ehud Brach, who's not only a former Prime Minister, a former negotiator, a former defence minister and a former general. He led the raid on Entebbe to release Israeli hostages back then. But he said to me, among other things, we will win, but...

Boiling blood does not make for successful strategic outcomes. And I found that really interesting, really, really interesting. Yeah. So you spoke, one of the first people you spoke to was the Palestinian Authority as one of your first bookings that day. No, no, no, no, no.

No, no, it wasn't. In three hours of live programming, I first booked Israeli officials, whether they were former prime ministers, whoever I could get and my team could get from the Israeli side to tell us what had happened and to put that into unfolding context. In three hours, I had

a huge weight of Israeli voices, including the current leader of the Labour Party and others. In three hours, yes, I had two Palestinian voices, both of whom belong to the internationally recognized Palestinian Authority, one of whom is their representative, like their ambassador, so to speak, to the UK. Yeah, this is Husam Sadzomla. He represents the government.

First and foremost, do you condemn what Hamas did inside Israel to Israeli civilians?

There are dead and there are hostages. First and foremost, the Western media most really abandoned this framework that has gotten us to where we are today. Okay, but I just want to know, do you support the killing of civilians? Of course not. So do you condemn that? The loss of civilian life is tragic in all sides. And what is happening is extremely worrying and very tragic.

As we speak, the loss of lives, you've counted 70 Israeli deaths. There is more than 200 Palestinian deaths so far, more than 1,600. Entire residential compounds are being wiped out. This is a war crime committed by Israel. What is more tragic or equally tragic?

is the blindness and the deafness of the world and the international community for so many years. Of the warnings we have been saying that this was coming. Israel knew that this was coming their way. We, the national movement of Palestine, the PLO, have found a different path 30 years ago. We have committed to what the world asked us. Recognize Israel, commit to negotiations and nonviolence,

and to international legitimacy and resolution. Israel was expected to do one thing only, roll back its occupation, stop its colonial settlement expansion. Not one day it did so, killing the prospects of a two-state solution. And the world was expected to do one thing, Christian, uphold international law equally on everybody, on Ukraine, on Palestine. And the world fails to do that.

What did you make of his response? What were you going for there? You know, Cara, I'm almost sorry that you brought that up because it caused me a lot of grief in that I got a lot of pushback from certain people in the Jewish community. All I can say is that I asked him to condemn it. I asked him, would he condemn it? Does he condemn it? And he said yes. And then he put the history in context. As you say, it was in the very, very early hours at the beginning of

of, as we were learning, the extent of the slaughter and the viciousness and the intimate barbaric killing of men, women, and children. Had I conducted that interview properly,

days or a day later, I would have maybe had a different follow-up. However, I will say that I do not apologize for actually putting some of the history in there as well. I think that is something, whether it was apt then or

Or not. As I say, we didn't know the extent of what had happened. But I was not talking to a terrorist. No, not at all. And in fact, one of the things you covered was the wariness of the both sides-ism after the terror attack. Days later, you posted a related question to another guest, Israeli historian Yuval Noah Harari. Let's play a quick clip from that interview. Can I ask you, because you are a really thoughtful person and your whole career and your public intellectual-ism is

is based on complex thoughts. Is there a moral maze? Is there an ability to hold two thoughts at one time? That that slaughter is the worst thing that could have happened?

and that everybody has the right to live with rights and dignity, including the Palestinian people. And I am not talking about Hamas. Yes. I am talking about the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people for 75 years and 56 under occupation. Yes. And this is the big challenge that...

It should be possible to understand that you can be victim and perpetrator at the same time. This is what happens to most people in history, most nations in history. They are sometimes victims, they are sometimes perpetrators, they are sometimes both at the same time.

But this is a kind of complexity, but especially when you stand thousands of kilometres from the conflict, you can see it. But for the people on the ground, it is impossible. It is just psychologically impossible. And of course, Cara, he's right. It is psychologically impossible. But I go back to reading the book by Ari Shavit, My Promised Land, the Israeli journalist and author, who also said that

you have to be able to hold two thoughts in your hand at the same time. Yes, you may believe that the occupation is wrong. And yes, you also have to accept that there is a legitimate feeling of intimidation. That's the word he used, you know, years ago when he wrote his book. So in other words, the existential crisis, the existential fear that Israelis feel and

and also that they can be against the occupation. But of course, these are all thoughts. These are big thoughts for the future after what is going to happen. So I am now questioning, you know, I questioned former Prime Minister Yair Lapid last night. Now he has not joined, and this is significant, he has not joined the so-called unity government with Netanyahu because he does not agree with Netanyahu's far-right coalition members, on whom, like many Israelis,

They put blame for this massive failure for crying out loud. So what is the end game? And to be honest, nobody can tell us what it looks like. What happens the day after you have defeated Hamas? If you defeat Hamas, what happens the day after? Do you reoccupy? Do you half Gaza? Do you shunt Palestinians in one direction as Arab leaders are afraid and never allow them back?

What do you do? They do not have an answer right now. And they've told me that. They do not have an answer right now. And all we have to do is go back to the U.S. and coalition war against Saddam Hussein in 2003 and remind everybody and remind ourselves

that the war to depose Saddam Hussein was relatively simple, relatively bloodless, relatively no casualties on the U.S. side. But the aftermath was a catastrophe. Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people killed there. And so many Americans, you know, grievously and irredeemably injured as well as being killed, plus the birth of ISIS.

So let's talk about what's happening also is this humanitarian crisis, which has become the central story right now that's unfolding in Gaza. A week ago, you asked Israeli Defense Forces International spokesman Jonathan Conricus about it. Let's play a quick clip from that interview.

According to the directives given to us by the government, we are going to deny Hamas any and every military capability in the future. You must understand, and I think that you understand this very well, but the viewers may not understand it. We are not in another round of escalation with a terror organization. We are at war. The amount of Israeli casualties that have been inflicted by murderous jihadi terrorists

beasts that have come across our borders to kill our women and children is unprecedented. So talk about that. Talk about his response.

So I've spoken to a lot of the IDF spokespeople on my show every night. I've spoken to a very senior aide to Benjamin Netanyahu, Mark Regev, who I've known for many, many years when he was foreign ministry spokesperson. Then he became senior advisor. In the interim, he was Israeli ambassador to London. I've had a lot of, lot of encounters and conversations on and off the air with Mark Regev. And that is what they all say. They say to me, Christiane,

We have been back and forth in all the previous, what's the right words, conflicts. This is not that. This fifth one is war, and we will not stop until we deny Hamas the ability to ever, ever be a threat again. So as you remember, the Israeli defense minister earlier last week said,

not only are we putting a siege on Gaza, a total siege from the Erez point to the Rafah point, which he enumerated, no electricity, no water, no fuel, no food, but we will, quote unquote, also remove all restraints from our soldiers. So, you know, these are the questions that I ask, and they say,

in unison, this is a war. We will do our best. We are committed to observing international law, but there will be casualties. And we are doing our best to make sure that the Palestinian people are not overly disproportionately affected. And then the latest talking point is that ask Hamas why they have brought this horror, not just on Israelis, but on their own people.

Um, so that's, that's where we are. Um, so when you, you did ask him about the no food, no fuel, no water, and he said, we cannot be feeding and providing electricity and food, which, what do you think is going to happen on a civilian and humanitarian level with these answers? It's already happening. Some people we understand are trying to drink seawater. I mean, that is about the most dangerous thing because of the osmosis and you know, what that'll do to your actual body. Uh,

others are trying to use whatever wood or fuel they have to boil water and try to desalinate it themselves. But the fuel, what I hadn't realized, you know, I haven't been to Gaza for a while, what I hadn't realized was

was that Garzons essentially are dependent because of the salination and because they don't have enough running clean water. So that is an issue. When it's not coming in, it's a major issue. And if you know human beings can survive on little food for a long time, but they cannot survive on little or no water for a long time. So that's the big, big issue right now, which is why they're trying to get fuel in. Right. Do you think Israel or the world is prepared for this?

I don't know what this is. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. All I know is the past. And when it's become an untenable, you know, imagery coming out of Gaza, then the world, the U.S. and its allies have prevailed upon Israel to stop. And so Israel has over the years had truces with Hamas.

And then, you know, then it goes for another several years and then there's another eruption. This time, they do not believe that this is possible at all. And clearly they know that they were duped because they believe they were in a period of serious truce in which Hamas was more interested in being a

social slash political slash governing body and not anymore fully interested, at least on the front burner, of being a military resistance force against Israel. Apparently, the Israelis were busy trying to relieve some of the economic pressure by getting Gazan's

you know, visas and passes into Israel to at least be able to work and take remittances back into Gaza. And frankly, same as I found back in 2006, I was in, I've been in Gaza many times, including when Hamas won the election, which I have to tell you and your listeners that it was the United States. It was George W. Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and all those people who said that democracy in the

After that war, they insisted on those Palestinian elections going ahead, despite what the Israelis said. It was the government of Ariel Sharon, if I'm not wrong. And it was the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, who said, no, don't do it. Hamas will win. And the U.S. insisted that these elections go ahead. And bingo, Hamas won. And this is now the result.

So when you're covering this, you know, you were famous for this phrase, which you were talking about CNN itself when you were undergoing some problems there. Truthful, not neutral. No, it wasn't my problem. Yeah, no, I know that. I know, but you used the term. That was a leadership problem. That was a leadership. Which has now been fixed. Fixed. Are you happy now? With an excellent new CEO. Yeah. All right. So you said truthful, not neutral. It resonated with a lot of people. How do you look going into this when there's words like genocide and apartheid being used as when you're covering it?

Well, Cara, at this precise moment, I'm not using those two words. But, and, sorry, you can hold two thoughts in your head at one time, that this matter, however the Israelis manage to resolve it, will only be a resolution for the moment.

And afterwards, two things have to happen. And I've asked each and every Israeli who I've spoken to, whether military or political, in the intervening days since October 7th, you were not prepared. Your people were slaughtered. You were not there. What happened? And they said, all of them to a person say to me, Christiane, you're right.

This is what we're going to have to investigate after the war, because Israel is a country that has, like other countries, done, you know, the inward-looking self-investigations and the accountability. That's one thing. The other thing is that I also asked them about what happens next in any kind of political resolution. And again, they say, now is not the time, but we will...

And of course, this now becomes the U.S. issue because the United States of America is the only country that has the credibility and the deep, deep support and history of support for Israel to have the credibility and the integrity that is necessary.

So, so how do you feel? Mm.

They are not at war with Israel. The Qatari prime minister said to me, all these normalizations, fine, it's great. It may reduce tension in our region, but it is not the fundamental issue. The fundamental issue is the Palestinians. Again, I am not talking about Hamas. Right. I get that. Now, Biden is headed to Israel. Talk about what U.S. policy should be right now.

I believe one of the main, from U.S. officials who I've talked to since the news broke that he's going, I believe one of the main imperatives for a U.S. president is to build on the trust and the love that

they are showing to the Israeli people and that the Israeli people are appreciating right now. More than half the Israeli people listen to Joe Biden's speech and his speeches, but his main speech on this horror. And they appreciate him. They are desperate for leadership in this vacuum. I'm talking about the majority of Israelis now. There may be some who don't appreciate, but the majority do. At the same time, the polls show that the majority of Israelis do not appreciate

trust their own government because of what's happened and want the government to resign once the war is over. So Biden knows that the only way an American president is able to speak truth to Israelis is by holding them and hugging them close.

Right. And that is part of, I think, what he's going to do to show that he absolutely is supporting them, to show that the Americans have their back, but also to show that he can be trusted in their hour of need. And also, if difficult choices need to be made in the future around that's around Netanyahu, you mean?

oh, I don't know about Netanyahu, but about, you know, are there peace deals to be had? Is there a new political track that needs to be tried again? Because clearly that's something the Americans have shepherded in the past. And to trust, you know, in other words, out of this catastrophe, can a long-term solution be found? And I think that unless you are trusted by the Israeli people,

I don't think it's possible because the peace camp has been discredited on all sides, certainly on the Israeli side and certainly even the majority of Palestinians, I think at the moment, don't believe that it's possible to have a two-state solution anymore. We'll be back in a minute.

So the elimination of Hamas is seen to be, by the Israeli government, as necessary to result in long-term peace and security for Israel. But we don't know whether the Israeli government is interested in a long-term peace. One of the issues is that many Arab leaders are concerned about, and I do believe, you've heard Biden himself, the U.S. administration is concerned, is about the project of the far-right religious nationalists who are Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition partners and who would like to see Hamas

let's say, the occupied West Bank be resolved by Jordan taking the Palestinian population. Well, clearly, the Arab leaders are worried about that right now, because Jordan has said, don't even think about it. For us, that is a red line. Jordan is not Palestine. Right, right. So let's finish talking about the other in the region, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Iran. How are you looking at covering their roles here?

It's difficult, but we're eyes on. We have reporters inside southern Lebanon. At the moment, we don't have an independent reporter inside Iran. If things require it, hopefully we will. What I know from the U.S. and from other foreign ministers and people who I'm talking to mostly on background, because they don't all want to be quoted at the moment, but we do know from the United States that they...

see no active planning by either Iran or Hezbollah right now as we speak to join any wider war. Yes, there are skirmishes. Yes, Iran is warning about a humanitarian catastrophe against the Gaza civilians. But Iran...

takes for itself that role of being, you know, the, you know, the whatever, the backer of the Muslims around the world. But they have no evidence of Iran having planned this, having given a green light, or at the moment, preparing for any wider joining of this war. That could all change. But I'm talking about right now as we speak.

So my last two questions, I know you've got to go, is there are competing cries for context versus moral clarity in recent days. Right now, it's playing out the current conflict with Palestinian sympathizers pointing to past abuse by Israel and those who think this heinous attack requires a different response. How do you balance those as a reporter?

Well, look, you know, I've always said, you know, I'm now covering it from my studio in London. So I will be going there in the next week or so. Right. To provide, you know, relief from all our anchors and people who are there. But also, you know, if there's a next phase and I've got a new program starting, you

I believe that even as reporters, you learn more and more as the situation goes on. And as you learn more and more,

Your reporting takes shape by what you're seeing, by what you're hearing, by who you're interviewing and all of that. I do not believe that it helps the general conversation or indeed the context to go off half-cocked, you know, and to put forward my feelings and my thoughts and my whatever it is. I try very, very hard to stay...

in the fact-based realm while also understanding what is actually happening and what's unfolding. I must say, I had a very, I mean, I don't even really, I don't know why I'm bringing this up, but I had a moment where I cracked on Wednesday on the air. I was interviewing one of the Israeli survivors from the rave, you know, and all I could think of was my son could have been there if he had been in Israel. It really, really makes me cry even now. But anyway, um,

And you know how he was telling me this was a peaceful raid. We were the peace camp. We had all sorts of people from all over the world, different religions, etc. And he explained, as he said, it wasn't even human what they did to us. I broke down. I gathered myself very quickly, but...

It's hard. It's really, really hard. And I think that we are also human as reporters, even if we're not directly involved, we must gather ourselves as well, not be afraid of being human. But our first responsibility is as a doctor in an emergency room to be able to really, really report concerns.

constructively what's going on. And I'm not saying dispassionately and I'm not saying neutrally. Remember, I'm not using any of those words. I just say we have to get it together and keep it together to be able to explain to people what's happening. Let me ask you the last question. You mentioned Mark Thompson, who's your new boss.

And he said, let's not second guess ourselves or get distracted by complicated arguments about balance and whataboutism or false equivalency. Let's cover political news proportionally and fairly. Let's not be afraid of our own shadows. What does that mean to you right now in this particular crisis?

Well, it means what I've said to you. We have to be willing to go there and to tell the stories even when they're uncomfortable and even when certain people don't want us to tell certain parts of the story, we have to tell those parts of the story. In my view, it is much more constructive and much more safe for people to understand what they're facing and what's down the road and what's around the corner than not.

So I do think that we have to do all of that. But I would say, you know, Mark was probably, I believe, talking about covering politics as well. And I do believe we have to be truthful, not neutral. For instance, covering, let's just say, the catastrophe that is American congressional politics right now, as you watch unfolding, or what passes as a Republican primary when the main presumed nominee is not even taking part.

part in the established rules of the game, not debates, not nothing. We have to be truthful. We have to be truthful and not neutral and say it as it is. Well, let's end it on that. I really appreciate it, Christiane. I know you've got to go or I have a million other questions for you. Well, I'm off to interview the Egyptian foreign minister about the Rafah crossing. That's why I have to run now. You better get to that. I appreciate it. It's on!

That's a very timely interview she's rushing off for with Egyptian foreign minister Salma Shoukri. Yeah, absolutely. That's the real problem at the border there with the Gazans trying to cross over. Yeah, well, they're trying to let foreigners out, and the Egyptians have said you have to let aid in, which everyone agreed to, and there was a ceasefire, but then Israeli shelling continued. I think Shoukri said it was a...

ongoing aerial bombardment of that area. Yep. I wish we had kept her for longer, but a lot of ground covered. Yeah, I mean, she's a very busy woman right now, obviously. And so these are really important things. There's a million things you could talk to Christiane about, including what was happening at CNN. She kind of referred to it, something we'd hope to talk about her longer, but she was, this is a really, it's an ongoing crisis.

And it's one that's moving in real time. That's important that she really focus in on. It's a tough thing to cover because the emotions are so high on all sides. And so you have to be very careful as a journalist, especially of her reputation and prominence of how you do this.

100%. What was your most urgent question you had remaining for it? Was it CNN stuff that you wanted to get into? I'm interested in that. You know, we talked about truthful, not neutral, but I think I'm very interested in what that means in today's world because it's a very, it's a pithy little thing to say, but what does it mean? What does it mean?

and go through some examples of what that means. I think she's right, and it feels right. I just would like to know more about what she means. Yeah. I think that would have been interesting to unpack more. And I would have liked to unpack more some of the elements around the U.S.'s position here, you know, where the State Department is saying don't use words like ceasefire, de-escalation. And Biden is, as she intimated, just playing this very tricky balancing act of

solidarity with an ally after a horrific attack and not being complicit in what the United Nations is labeling war crimes and collective punishment. Yeah, it's going to be a very dicey trip for him. Two moments that really stood out for me in the interview, by the way, were one was when we played her that clip from Hassam Zamlat, the Palestinian authority leader, the representative in the UK. And

She said, I'm almost sorry, because she had gotten that pushback. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard. I mean, she did ask him to condemn, and she allowed him, but she also said, I don't apologize for allowing him to share the historical context. I might have had a different follow-up. That's correct. She's in a very dicey situation, an emotional moment, and she's got to talk to the principals. And it's like people get mad, and it's not comparable, but when people interview Trump after things, right? How dare you talk to him?

Well, that's her job. She has a really tough job. She's got to talk to people she may not agree with, she may not, you may be very angry at, but she still has to get answers from them, and I thought she did a great job. Yeah. And the second moment is when she cracked at the end, when she was talking about speaking to that survivor of the attack on the peace concert and thinking her own son could be at that concert. Her son, of course, the father of her son is Jewish American. Right.

So you could hear that. You could hear that. And in those two moments, what was revelatory for me is the answer to that question she asks to Yuval Harari, that you can hold two thoughts at once. Well, you can be a person, I think, is more what she was saying. She's still a person, and everybody has an emotional reaction to this. And so she just revealed it, that's all, and that's fine. I've never had a problem with that. It'll be interesting to see how she continues to cover that.

Probably really well. Really well. But I think her analysis and her language will be something I'm looking at in the days and months to come. Yeah, she's a very bold journalist. This one will tax even someone like her to do it the right way without everything that's happening there and people being very upset, as they should be. Yeah, and there will be scrutiny. Yep. Scrutiny. All right, Kara, will we continue to watch what happens in this conflict and hope that

and it doesn't continue for too long. Do you want to read us out? Yep. Today's show was produced by Naeem Araza, Christian Castro Rossell, and Megan Burney. Special thanks to Claire Tai and Mary Mathis. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan. Our theme music is by Trackademics.

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