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Before we get going today, I wanted to tell you about another Radiotopia podcast you should be listening to, Song Exploder. Song Exploder is an award-winning show about the creative process behind music. Artists break down one of their songs, letting you hear all the different layers in the recording, from instruments to beats to vocals. And most importantly, they talk about why they made the creative choices they did. Song Exploder is not just for music nerds. It's for anybody who cares about creativity or wants to feel inspired to create something.
It's hosted by Rishi Keshe Hiraway, who you might know from the podcast Home Cooking or the West Wing Weekly. The episodes are short, about 20 minutes each, and my recommendation is to start with an episode featuring an artist you love. And then listen to one with an artist you don't know at all. There are over 250 episodes with guests like Fleetwood Mac, Madonna, Solange, Beats,
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Find your favorite episode of Song Exploder and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or at songexploder.net. I think what I'm going to do is just give her the fucking gift card and you say, go get your own goddamn pots, you fancy members only bitch.
Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney. In each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. I am thrilled to welcome on the pod this week, Laurel Bristow. Laurel is the very first scientist we've ever had on this podcast.
She has her master's in the control of infectious disease from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. She is everyone's favorite guide to infectious diseases, and she's just gotten a brand new job as the director for Emory's TB Research Advancement Center. Laurel, welcome. Congratulations on your new job. Oh my God, thank you so much. I am so excited to be here.
I'm so excited you're here as a fan and as someone who your, you know, information has helped me greatly. I'm thrilled.
Oh, thank you so much. And also up top, I would like to apologize for using your name as the name of a villain in season one. So I hope that you will forgive me and we can move past it. The range of emotions I felt for that episode of like, oh my God, yay, someone's using the name Laurel. And then immediately Rachel was like, fuck that bitch. If we want, if Laurels want representation,
want representation in popular culture, we have to take the good and the bad. You know, it's just part of it. So you're so right. And here you are to redeem all laurels on behalf of all laurels. I am the spokesperson for the name. So congratulations. Can you start me off with just our basic question? What's your relationship with gossip like?
Oh my gosh. I'm so excited to answer these questions. Um, my relationship with gossip is that I love it. Um, you ask people if they would consider themselves a gossip. And I think I would say I am like a reformed or like an elevated gossip because I used to be someone who it was like in one ear and out my mouth. Like I was just gabbing, talking shit. Um,
As fast as possible, relaying secrets as fast as possible. And I've grown up from that and I've learned that the real power is you just hold all the secrets. I love collecting gossip and then like very strategically as like a power move. You can like dole out a little bit, but I think there's so much good in being able to hold stuff and like know when you should keep it to yourself. Yeah.
I'm laughing because my next question is, is it true that you're a Gemini? So let's just go ahead and move. Yes, correct. That is true. I don't know how you could have figured that one out. I'm not sure. But yeah, I mean, and I also think it's part of working in like health, like working in medicine and infectious disease. Infectious disease is so fun because the joke is,
is if you call an infectious disease consult on someone, you are going to get pages of patient history because we are just asking every question under the sun. Wait, okay. Start me at the beginning. What is an infectious disease consult? Why are you calling one?
If you're in the hospital, if you, you know, an internal medicine doctor or an emergency department doctor has a patient and something's going on and they think that it might be caused by something. We don't have an explanation for these symptoms. Something is happening. Call someone from infectious disease. They have the expertise. They might be able to pinpoint what weird thing.
thing is causing this. So infectious disease doctors will show up and they will just ask every question under the sun, like collect all of the information. And so it's like, you know, you get to be the keeper of secrets, you know, who, where they've been traveling, who they've been sleeping with, what kind of sex they're having, like all of these ridiculous questions. You just get to know everything. And then you figure out like, oh, this person like probably has malaria because they told you that they haven't gone anywhere in three months, but they just told us that they were at like
A sex party on the West Coast of Africa. You know, it's like... That'll do it. You just get these crazy ideas. Yeah. So, and I think that's also the, like, knowing when to not say stuff. It's like, I just hold the secrets and it makes my hair big.
The bigger your hair, the closer to God famously. So how does gossip function like from beginning to end? Right. Because I feel like we've learned a lot in the last year, two years, three years now about like contact tracing, about new research coming out. Like how does the gossip flow from like the first person in the hospital being like, I think that there's something happening here to now? Yeah.
I mean, that's also like, because I love gossip and I like infectious disease and I'm very interested. There were things that were happening. Like I would hear a rumor on social media or unsubstantiated news reports that there was like monkeypox in Atlanta. And I would text every infectious disease attending I knew to be like, is it true? What's happening? What do you know? And they tell it like, it's like this podcast, like anonymized, like they're not telling me anything.
Yeah. Yeah.
So it's really fun. But I mean, yeah, my love of gossip is long. My dad is probably the biggest gossip of all time. That's like our thing is like family gossip with each other. He has a joke that he's been making since I was little, which is there are three, the three fastest ways to spread information are television, telephone, and tell a butcher. And my dad is a butcher. So...
I won. Incredible joke. Congratulations to your father. Why? I know that you're not a butcher, but why are the butchers the gossip? You know, back in the days of butcher shops, like people getting meat from butcher shops, it's like you see everyone in town, you're delivering to all the restaurants. So you're just like getting all the community news.
from everyone. You're just like out and about collecting all that goss. And they just love to chat, chit chat, like the old school butchers. They will just talk to each other about a bunch of stuff. So I think it's just so funny. This like old man, sorry, dad, if you're going to listen to this, this older man gossip club, it's so cute. Yeah.
I love that. And it's funny that like your, your profession is so different from your father's, but also you both are just trafficking and gossip, which is kind of beautiful to me. Yeah, we can bond over it. I love it.
Yeah, it's also most people I feel like talk about like, oh, I gossip with my mom. So it's kind of like an interesting play on that to be like, oh, yeah, me and my dad are the true gossips in the family. My dad and I love a messy situation to talk about. It's so funny. When you said family gossip, do you mean like exclusive?
extended family? Like what kind of? Yeah, like my immediate family is small, but a lot of my dad's family all still live in California. So they see each other or they would see each other. So you know, you're just talking about like, what's up? What's up with the fam? What are they doing now? Who's who's into shenanigans at the moment? You know, you're gonna fucking love the story we've picked for you today. I can't wait.
Before we get there, though, I have a couple more questions about your job just because I'm curious. Go for it. Did you know it would have a lot of gossip in it when you decided to go into infectious disease? I don't think I did. I think I just got... You were like, I want to help the world. Yeah.
Yeah. Like I was really, cause like infectious disease is so interesting. And I knew that there were so many like social and societal factors that like impact it and all this stuff. But then getting into the world, especially the last four years when my position was based at like a hospital and having to like deal with hospitalized patients and doctors who work there. Then suddenly I was like, Oh my God, like reading people's medical charts and just being like, who did what with what now? This is so interesting. How did you,
come to this you know so and like reading it and like you're not discussing it with anyone except the doctor you know so it's just like but at least you can discuss it with the doctor with the doctor yeah yeah this is but yeah it's like it's also fun because it's not a like my work is not a judgment thing obviously like I'm reading these charts I'm just like this is fascinating like I
Or you read a chart from an internal medicine doctor and you're like, wait, why didn't you ask this follow-up question? You know, because we're just so used to like collecting all the information. I used to work for TV control in San Francisco and there was a TV outbreak, a local outbreak in a high school. So it was high school kids. And we used to like... TV being tuberculosis, just in case people don't know. In case people don't know. And we like, we're trying to contact Trace. And so we're like...
adding kids on Snapchat to like see what they're snapping and who they're with. Cause I'm like, you're lying to me. Like you're not telling me everything. So you like look at their social media and see who they're tagged with. So you like can make sure you're capturing all potential cases. That's so funny. You're like building out like, like a web on your wall of like which children are crushing. Yeah.
Yeah. And then, yeah, in the midst, you just find out like, all right, well, this guy's definitely got a crush on her because he keeps like reposting. He'll post something as soon as she posts something. So something's going on. Wow. That's just like an added bonus to it. I'm curious, like you're saying that you used to spill everything and now you don't. Right. Like now you've become more private. Does is that correlated with like the rise in attention and popularity that you've gotten?
No, it's correlated with me getting my ass handed to me for gossiping and being like, oops, I should probably stop doing this. I'm over here like, oh, maybe she's become more careful because she's afraid of like trolls. No, it's like I got called out and I was like, yeah, that was that was pretty fucked up of me. You're right. Yeah, you're right. My bad. And then you're like, well, maybe I'm gonna change that behavior. So I stopped getting yelled at.
It's good to admit when you're wrong. Yeah, I think I changed in my late 20s. I stopped doing that. And then it's great because someone's like, did you say this about me to this person? And I say like, no, I did not. And then I feel very peaceful. No, but now I know that information and I accept it. I'm like, no, but if you want to tell me more about what you think people are saying about you, that would be, I'll take that. I'm sorry, what do you think I
think I said about you exactly? Could you go like play by play? And who's our main suspect here now that I'm ruled out? Who do we think's been saying that? Well, we're going to have fun, I think. Okay. Should we do it? You ready to get into it? Let's get it. I'm so pumped.
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Hosted by Maria Garcia, this is My Devo, an Apple original podcast produced by Futuro Studios. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. Our gossip for today concerns a family gift exchange that was so chaotic that two years later, members of this family are still like reeling about it. Before we get to that, though, we need to like journey back into the past. ♪
Families, famously, as you know, are never actually fighting about what's happening right now.
In the same way that couples are always having the same fight over and over again, families are always fighting about one thing that happened a million years ago. So the family claims to be fighting about why does the youngest always get to pick where we go for dinner when really what they're fighting about is why did the youngest child get to see a PG-13 movie when they were only nine and the rest of us had to wait until our 13th birthday? So that is the experience we are setting up for. Do you have any experience with long family grudges?
Oh, of course. I mean, I feel like my family used to, we like had a real bad tendency to hold on to stuff for way too long. And it would be like really dumb stuff. Like, I think for probably at least 10 years, I used to continuously bring up to my sister that when I was like,
seven, she convinced, she lured me fully clothed to get into the like standing shower in our mom's bathroom with the promise that she wasn't going to turn the water on. And then she did. And I would bring it up for 10 years as like an example that she cannot be trusted. Like get over it, dude.
And she, in turn, got really mad because she got married when she was 23. And so I was 18. And they had a reception on – my brother-in-law comes from a farm town, so a reception on the family farm. And I was drinking a Coors Light in front of my mom at 18. I'm a feminist, by the way. And so Erin was like, why is she getting a – I had to pretend like I had never had alcohol until I was 21. And I'm like, well, you're the oldest. Like, sorry. Yeah.
The classic tale of like the oldest sister, youngest sister dynamic, in my opinion. Okay. So our friend of a friend's friend for this episode is this girl named Susie. We're going to call her Susie. Susie.
The drama in Susie's family has to do with the people a generation older than her, right? So her mother and her mother's siblings. Great. You have already told me that you're the youngest, but what are your feelings about like birth order as imbuing personality traits? I think there are some very serious ones. My sister, my eldest sister is...
Definitely like, you know, was a had a big role, like picking us up from school, dropping us off to school, like very, you know, stepped in to help my mom. I had a working single mom. So big sister is definitely, you know, take on the burden. Younger siblings, myself, little spoiled babies, little spoiled babies. That's very true. And then the middle siblings just kind of forgotten like me.
Yes. So that's exactly the dynamic we're working with today. We've got three siblings. Here we go. The oldest is named Aunt Jackie. Aunt Jackie. The middle child is Susie's mom, Donna. Okay. And then the baby of the family is Uncle Randy. Uncle Randy. All these kids, they got along pretty well. They were like close enough in age to play together, but not close enough to feel that they were like in direct competition with each other.
With the exception of the PG-13 movie problem that we've already been over, these siblings like mostly got along. Other kids like wanted to be their friends. Their parents wanted advice. They were great. All through high school, they were close. They like told each other their secrets. They talked on the phone. They were a united front against their parents, right? Like good sibling dynamic. The first sibling to leave, though, was Aunt Jackie.
Okay. And Jackie, a couple years after college, moved abroad with very little warning and like never really came back home. Honestly, good for her. Yeah. And Jackie, you know, she shows up like once every five years. She's got a suitcase full of booze and like presents for the kids. She's wearing sunglasses that are worth more than like everyone else's salary. And then she just like disappears again. Oh, my God. I would love to be. We all want to be. Yeah.
But when Aunt Jackie moved away, because she was the oldest, she left the two younger siblings unsupervised. And because Aunt Jackie was the oldest, she was like the peacekeeper in this family, right? Like she was the one that like held people apart, forced them to have conversations, like that kind of shit. So with Aunt Jackie gone, it's not just that like the two younger siblings are being more chaotic. It's also that there's now like a power vacuum. So like both of the younger siblings want up. Yes.
So we've got Susie's mom, Donna, and we've got uncle Randy. They were the closest growing up. They're only two years apart, drove to high school together every day. And at first when aunt Jackie left, everything was fine. They were like super close. They don't need aunt Jackie. Everything's great. Donna gets married pretty young. She gets pregnant pretty young. Her first child is Susie, our friend of a friend's friend.
And everyone in the family was like thrilled that Susie existed, right? Like little Susie is the first grandbaby. Exactly. And she's like life of the party, right? Like first year of Susie's life. No one's doing anything. Everyone's standing around in a circle watching Susie try to roll over. They're all like, we love Susie. Firstborn children, grandchildren, as you may know, usually get the honor of naming the grandparents. Right.
Oh, yeah. So you can tell, you know, you can tell a baby, I want to be called grandma. But if the baby is like, I'm calling you Grammy, you're Grammy, right? Like you don't really get a say in the matter. Yes. Yes. So at almost a year old, Susie, the firstborn names her grandparents, Granny and Papa. What the family did not expect is that Susie also renamed Uncle Randy.
parents played a lot of Super Mario when she was a baby and they were like big gamers. They loved playing like up late into the night. And because Susie was tiny and her brain was still like mushy, she absorbed the video game fully into her understanding of reality. And so the minute she was old enough to talk, she took one look at her uncle Randy, a tall man with a mustache who once made a fateful choice of wearing a green hat. And she pointed at him and she said, Uncle Luigi. Good. Sick burn, baby.
So baby Susie has now renamed basically everyone in the family. How are you feeling at this point? I love this. It's also making me think of my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, her mom. I think my mom had a cousin. I'm going to get this wrong. My mom will correct me eventually. But a cousin who called their grandma cinchy as the grandma. Cinchy. Cinchy because...
The baby's mom would be like, let's go to Cynthia's house, which is my maternal grandmother. But the baby knew that it was actually Cynthia's mom's house because she was still living with her mom. And so she called the grandma Cinchy. Cinchy. She thought Cynthia was her name and called her Cinchy. So it's like the complicated baby names. I relate to that.
It's really nice of you to do my foreshadowing for me. I really appreciate that. Oh, boy. We are in tune. Also, I want to say that my mom, you're talking about how you can't rename grandparents. We did actually get my nibblings to rename my mom's nickname because originally it was Maga. Maga? Yeah.
The firstborn grandbaby. We could not have that. Yeah. We rerouted it through subtle suggestion to Gaga. So her nickname is Gaga now. But yeah, we were like, oh, Mago, that's cute. And then 2016 happened and we were like, that's not cute. That's not cute. We lied.
And the baby was young enough that we rerouted successfully. I'm impressed. Good to know that you can reroute. Okay. So Susie's born. Uncle Luigi has never like dated anyone before she's born, right? He's like, I don't want kids. I don't want a wife. I want to like go to work, have my beer on my porch. I want to stay up late and watch basketball. I want to starfish on my whole bed, right? He's like, that's my whole game plan.
Fair enough, except that he got like heart eyes over Susie. So he was like, I love Susie. I love being Uncle Luigi. I feel like more like myself than I ever had. And that might be why he fell so hard and so easily for Kathy. Okay, Kathy is in the mix. Okay, so Uncle Luigi and Kathy, they met the way everyone in the 80s did through a mutual friend that they immediately lost contact with. Yes.
They're serious, steady, almost immediately. She was like thin and had the kind of 80s perm that Donna and Jackie could only dream about. Kathy had like gone to a good college. She had a good job. She was like always somehow wearing head to toe white with like no spots on her at all. I love it. I love that look. She is also bossy. Great. Uncle Luigi would not say she's bossy, right?
He would say that with Jackie gone, you know, somebody had to make all the decisions. The family was like a little unmoored and Kathy just wanted to help. Kathy did not want to sit around discussing what to eat for dinner until everyone was so hangry that they couldn't decide. That's fair. Also, what every family loves is an outsider who is suddenly making decisions for them. So this is going to go well. Yeah.
This started immediately, to be clear. Like the first time that Kathy met the family, she watched them argue for so long. And they finally decide on a restaurant. They get there and the restaurant is like the wait's going to be an hour and a half.
Kathy had been forewarned of this problem ahead of time. She was like, oh, I know that this family does this. And so she had already made a backup reservation like the first time she meets this family. So she's like, no problem. I've got us a backup reservation. That's pretty good, actually. It's smart. But Donna is like, I feel like this woman just like showed up and took over everything. Yeah.
But Donna, well, Donna's the middle child. She's not the baby. I was going to say as the baby, I would be like, great, take care of me. Figure it out. I don't want to think about anything. But Donna's the middle child and it's a power struggle. But Donna, you know, good sibling. She keeps her mouth shut. She's like, my brother seems really happy when he proposes to Kathy with like giant engagement ring. She's like, I'm so happy for you. Right. She even like let Susie be the flower girl and they both wore teal, which Kathy made them do, even though it's like not a good color for anyone in their family. No.
The drama really begins when Susie is four years old. Oh my God, Alex, remember the week that you moved to a completely different state and then also at the same time we had a company retreat that was in New York City? Yeah.
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Uncle Luigi and Aunt Kathy have their first child. This was the third grandchild because Susie had a younger sibling. That's not important. Okay, yeah. What Kathy says happened is that her child heard her call her mother-in-law by her first name, Miriam, at a very impressionable age and immediately started calling the grandma Mimi instead of Granny. Okay.
And Kathy's like, you know, this is the same thing that happened when Susie started calling my husband, Uncle Randy, Uncle Luigi. And Donna is like, I do not think that those are the same thing. So you have predicted the future. How does it feel? Yeah, I think that's funny. I didn't realize that was a trend, even if it's possible that Kathy is making it up. Yeah.
Yeah. So now what was the original nickname? Granny. Regular granny name. So we have Granny and we have Mimi now. Exactly. Okay.
Okay, continue. So Donna is like, I just think that this is different. I think that the first grandchild is beloved and gets to do whatever they want. And like you, your child doesn't get to come in here and call my mother Mimi. I think that that's not fair. She's like, this is a usurping of family tradition. So I love that. I love this already that she's so bent out of shape by this. Can I just say my family on my dad's side, each sub family had a different nickname for our grandma.
We call her grandma. My cousins call her Poppy. My other cousins call her Nanny, I think was the other nickname or Noni. Yeah. So we all have different ones. So to me, the fact that someone's like, no, we picked and you can't change this name. I'm like, this is gearing up to just if this is a tone setter, then the tone is set. And your grandma lived with her three names and she loved it. Yeah.
Donna does not think that this is okay. And she does not think that this is like should persist because she thinks that Kathy did it on purpose. Oh boy, Donna.
She thinks that Happy wanted her kids to call her mom Mimi instead of Granny. Yeah, I can sense that that's what Donna is thinking. For a couple of years, it goes fine, right? Grandma has two names. She's both Granny and Mimi. It's fine. Donna's children continue to call her Granny. Kathy has two more children. They're all calling her Mimi. Okay, we have five grandkids. It's fine.
The kids were like not together a ton because they didn't live super close together. They were only ever together for the holidays and the family beach trip. So like there wasn't a lot of overlap in calling their grandma names anyway. Until one holiday season when Susie was 10 and the cousins were like finally old enough to begin to like bond together. Because Donna's second oldest child and Kathy's oldest were only one year apart.
So they like became inseparable. Soon all the cousins are like, oh, we're in this little group, like best friends. They're playing hide and seek or whatever. There were three of Kathy's kids and only two of Donna's. So if you think about it, you know, it doesn't seem super crazy that Susie looked at her grandmother on Christmas morning and said, can you hand me my present, Mimi? Oh, no. Oh, no, Susie. Mimi is more fun to say. Yeah. Every kid has a granny.
Yeah, Granny is boring. Granny's tired. Donna does not think that Granny is tired. Donna thinks that this is a coup, right? She's like, Kathy imposed her will on everyone again without asking. Oh my god. Did Donna choose the name Granny? It's starting to feel like Donna's way more invested in this than actually just letting her kids set the tone. It sure is.
Donna's like, whatever. I'll keep calling my mom granny. It'll probably wear off, right? Like, no problem. Yeah. But every year at the beach trip and at Christmas, she would listen to her kids call her mother Mimi. And it was like nails on a chalkboard to her, right? She just like could not handle it. Five years ago, Mimi died of like old age, right? And all the family was finally together, which they rarely were at this point because the kids were getting older. And they're like, you know, going to college, general life, right? They have been to the beach in years. Yeah.
And in a, like, very generous state of mind and grieving her mother's death, Donna turned to Uncle Luigi and was like, I think we should all go to the beach again this year. Right? Like, I think it would be nice. I think we should get a condo like we used to. We can, like, hire a photographer and take the family pictures on the beach like we always do. And maybe, like, Jackie will even come. Mm-hmm.
uncle luigi's like great idea i want to so they plan this whole trip to the beach everyone drives down from their like respective homes they stay in like a nice beach house that uncle luigi and kathy paid for it seemed like everything was gonna go well but on the first day donna was wearing her like cute little swimsuit and kathy was like oh i love this swimsuit like where'd you get it and donna was like oh i got it at walmart and kathy was like oh i never go to walmart and
Oh, the offense that's going to be taken from a semi fine statement, like could have been pointed, but could have also just been a statement of fact. But I believe I suspect Donna's going to take it one very specific way. She sure is. And the way she takes it is this is offensive. Kathy thinks she like is better than me because she's richer. Donna is like furious. Yes.
But she's like, you know what? Aunt Jackie, our reigning like peace king is going to arrive tonight on her first class flight, like wearing linen and some cool hat and she will solve my problem. Right.
Yes. That's what big sisters do. They solve problems. So Aunt Jackie, you know, she like rolls up in her cab from the airport and immediately the vibe like shifts. Aunt Jackie is like out here rolling blunts on the patio and like teaching the kids to catch sand crabs and like being everyone's favorite member of the family. And because of that, everyone's like on their best behavior because they're like Aunt Jackie's here. We've got to be good. Donna even like pours Kathy a glass of wine without being asked and brings it to her.
That's very nice. So kind. But she is holding a lot of resentment inside of her. And the next morning, she's like, Jackie, can we take a walk on the beach? I need to talk to you about something. And Jackie's like, uh-oh, what? And Donna's like, I got to talk about Kathy. So they go for that little walk. And Donna is like walking her through this Walmart comment.
And Jackie is like, so you're upset that she said that she doesn't shop at Walmart? Yeah. And Donna's like, no. Donna's like, I'm upset because she's always talking down to me. And Jackie's like, I don't think that she was talking down to you. I think that, like, she just doesn't go to Walmart anymore.
Yeah. And Jackie does not have time for this shit. And Jackie's doing fabulous stuff. She's not caring about who does and does not shop at Walmart. Get over it. No. And Jackie has also like probably not been at a Walmart in like 30 years. Right. So she's like this problem. I do not care about it. It's irrelevant to my life. And Donna is like, no, she meant it. Like it was pointed. I know her tone. And Jackie's like, okay.
I don't believe this is actually about Walmart. What is the real problem here? And Donna explains that the real problem with Kathy is that like Kathy, essentially Kathy is rich, right? Like Kathy doesn't have to work. Kathy didn't have to leave her kids with Mimi during the day so she could like go to a part-time job and pay for their food. Kathy got to like stay home with her kids and doesn't have to shop at Walmart. Kathy gets everything she wants. Kathy, that bitch, deigns to live a life that Donna would like.
exactly and that is basically what Jackie says Jackie's like you're jealous and Donna's like no I'm not and Jackie is like yes you are and also like I don't have time for this shit like our mother has recently died just make up with Kathy and like get over it yeah do you think this is good advice
I think it is good advice, but as it goes with all advice from big sisters, the younger sister is not going to take it. And I say this with experience as a younger sister who often asks her big sister for advice, gets the advice that is correct that I actually don't want and does not do it. And then was like, I should have done what you told me to do. But you know, what all big sister, as a big sister, what we all want for Christmas is for you to call us and be like, I should have done what you told me to do. So you're just really giving her what she wants.
Yeah, I'm saying validation. Yeah, exactly. That's all we want. Okay, so Donna is like, I'm in I'm outnumbered, right? She's like, Jackie and Kathy are on one team. I'll be like, nice tonight. Donna did not comment to everyone, even though she wanted to about the fact that Kathy was eating for Activia yogurts per day. She could have but she didn't. She kept that little fact to herself.
Oh, it's very big of her. But then on the last day, it was time to take the picture, right? They're going to go like take their picture and they're like little outfits on the beach. And every year they had come to the beach, they had taken a photo in jeans and white shirts. Classic Sears portrait photography outfit. Yes. Kathy has like hired a photographer. They're all supposed to meet downstairs at six. But when Donna comes downstairs, she is wearing a light blue shirt.
Oh, Donna. And Jackie immediately is like, oh, Donna, this shirt is light blue. You're supposed to be wearing white. And Donna's like, oh, I got a stain on my white shirt. Do you believe this? I do not believe that she got a stain on her white shirt. I don't believe that for one second, but I am very much looking forward to I've played a lot of scenarios in my head. What could happen next? Tell me. Okay. So one scenario is that Kathy very kindly offers her a white shirt and Donna gets offended.
Yeah, that's the right one. That's the right one. Yay. Okay. Nailed it on the first try. Another scenario is that she just digs her heels in and wears a blue shirt, but that's not happening. My third scenario, which is unrelated to the shirt, but could also be right, is that Kathy shits herself during the photo because she's been eating so much. But we'll just see if that one happens. Wow. I wish that that's where this story was going. Like truly from the bottom of my heart, I wish that this ended like that, but it does not.
Your first answer was correct, which is that Kathy is like, Donna, just borrow one of my shirts. And Donna is like, I will not borrow one of Kathy's shirts. I refuse. And I don't want Donna's like, I would rather eat a wet jean jacket. Thank you so much. Yes. And Donna does have one point that is fair, which is that she's like, the photo we take is in black and white. What does it matter? Like, it's going to read as white in the photos.
Yeah. Jackie is like, I think she's right. Like, I think you should leave it, Kathy. Like, it's fine. Do not pick this fight. So Kathy does not pick the fight. But then during the photo, Aunt Kathy has the gall to be like, say me, me, when the photographer is posing them for the group photo. Oh, that was a choice that she made. She knew what she was doing. Say me, me, me. Indeed, Kathy. I thought you were above this.
So after the photo scene, Donna is like angrily huffing away, right? She's like, I hate this. Like, I hate Kathy, blah, blah, blah. And Aunt Jackie turns to Uncle Luigi and is like, listen, don't.
You're the middleman here, right? Like it's your wife and your sister. So you need to talk to them. Like go figure out whatever this problem is and take care of it. She's like, I'm here. Did you say Jackie turns to him? Okay. So Uncle Luigi pulls Donna aside and is like, what is the problem here? Like what's going on? I know you're mad about the Mimi thing, but that's 500 years old. Like, please calm down.
And Donna like breaks down crying and she's like, you let her rename our mom. Oh my God. She's like, I wanted the kids to call our mom granny. And now like our mom is dead. And like, it's just a lot to have her here bringing all of this back up. And uncle Luigi is like, you know, Kathy also has like a similar problem to this.
Donna, she's not having this. She's like, Kathy gets everything she ever wanted. Kathy has plenty of money. What kind of fucking problem does Kathy have that could possibly be similar to this? And Uncle Luigi is like, well, you might have forgotten this, but my name is Randy and no one in this family has called me that for 20 years. And Kathy does not particularly like that I'm called Uncle Luigi. And also, I don't even have a mustache anymore. And Donna's like, OK, fine.
So Uncle Luigi like facilitate, right? He's like, we're having wine. You're going to sit down together. He like facilitates this like, quote unquote, makeup. But barely. Yeah. All of this has brought us to the battleground for all family fights, which is the holidays. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I even forgot that this was a gift exchange story. I was really I was into what's happening already. Let's get into it. That is just like, you know, you got to have context. That's our context.
This family, we're celebrating both Christmas and Hanukkah, which means there is double the drama. Okay, so the family drama that we're going to focus on for this part of the podcast happened two years ago. By this point, Susie's in college and Uncle Luigi's kids are in like late high school. In this family, they do presents the exact same way and they've done it the exact same way since like the early 90s.
The way it works is every child gets a present from each adult. Sure. Sick. Love that. But every adult makes a list and then the adults draw names for each other. And it's like Secret Santa, right? So you only have to buy one adult present. 50 buck limit on what kind of gift you can buy. And everyone like sends their wish list and then you just pick one off of it. You like wrap up the present, put it under the tree. Easy peasy. Easy peasy. But this year, Donna drew Kathy. Oh boy.
There's a like bonus problem with Kathy's present, which is that Kathy's birthday is very close to Christmas. And so the family has like wrapped the gift for Kathy into the Christmas gift. And so everyone else gets a $50 present at Christmas, but Kathy gets a $100 present at Christmas because Kathy has a birthday. Yes. Fine. Sure. Everyone in this family is concerned about the fact that Donna has to buy Kathy's gift.
But yeah, I would be too. Historically, it's not promising. I just, I think she has been sitting on that everyone say Mimi for however many years it's been. And she is just plotting. She is just waiting for her time to just slide that knife in between two ribs and give it a little twist. Yes. Donna is whining a lot about this. And she's whining specifically to Susie. And Susie is like, this seems really bad. Like,
Like, this does not seem like a good idea. Susie's in college. She's like, I'm looking at this whole scenario and it seems like drama to me. What do you think that Susie should do here? I, if I was Susie, I would say, do you maybe, maybe we just switch who we drew. Do you want me to take Aunt Kathy? Maybe you take Uncle Luigi or whoever she got?
Okay, so good thought. There's no rule in this family that you, like, can't switch gifts, right? Because the spirit of Secret Santa does not exist in this family. So they're like, whatever. Whatever. But Susie, because she is still technically a grandchild, does not have a person to switch. Oh, she hasn't been aged out yet? Mm-mm, not yet. Okay.
So now what do you do? Because Susie's the one she's bitching to. She would offer to pick out the present. Like, help her decide, maybe. I think this is a great idea. What Susie does is she calls Aunt Jackie. Uh-oh. Aunt Jackie's driving. She's like...
No, Susie's like, Aunt Jackie, listen, I know you're on a yacht in the Bahamas, but my mother, she's been bitching for weeks about having to get Kathy's present. And I feel like this is going to create chaos. Jackie is like, thank you for telling me. So Jackie reaches out to her sister and she's like, Donna, trade with me. Donna is like, why would I trade with you?
And Jackie's like, uh, I did not expect having to answer this question because you hate Kathy. And she's like, well, have you looked at Kathy's list? What's on Kathy's list? Well, the secret here is that Aunt Jackie knows that Donna has not looked at Kathy's list because the lists are all on a website and Donna is both bad with computers and does not have a smartphone. Donna's like, no, I haven't looked at the list. But why does that matter? Wait, this was two years ago and Donna still doesn't have a smartphone? I...
Interesting. I'm not in charge of Donna. We're really painting a picture of Donna here. All right. Jackie's like, well, you know, I thought it would be a good idea to get her, you know, she has these pots on her list, but the list price is $250. Yeah.
And like that's significantly above it. And I want to get them for her. So just like let me have Kathy. I feel that this is a situation of sisterly advice that is probably not going to be taken for whatever reason, which I mean, little sisters, we love like self-flagellation. So like even though Donna is incessantly complaining about Kathy, she will be damned if she gives up Kathy's as her secret Santa person. But she also still wants to complain. Yes.
And Donna is like what she has chosen to hook on to and complain is the fact that like Kathy would even put something on her list that is that expensive. Oh, my God, Donna. Come on. And Jackie is like Kathy.
My dude, like, please chill. She's like, because there's a link in Kathy's list that is to like a big warehouse store where you need a membership to shop and they have, you know, bulk items. She's like, and this store, this membership store that we shall not name has a set for only 120 bucks.
Yeah. Donna's like, Jackie, I can afford to go $20 over budget. Jackie's like, yes, sure. But you would still need the membership to go into the store to get the set. And Donna's like, of course, she put something on this list that I don't even have access to that I can't even get to. Kathy designed her Christmas wish list around what is inaccessible to Donna. That's a classic Kathy middle right there. So
And Jackie is like, just let me buy it. Like, get out of here. Take my gift person. And Donna is like, no, I'm getting it.
Also, is this the only thing that's on Kathy's list or we have just decided we're going to fixate on the inaccessible thing because it's inaccessible and it allows us to continue the story that we are so put upon. Yeah. Okay. Yes. It's important to create a narrative in your head and then refuse all information to the contrary. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I'm familiar with this strategy. So our friend of a friend reported that like,
They think that this is because Donna just, like, clearly has a chip on her shoulder about how much money everyone in this family has. And she resents them for it. And so she's, like, the friend of a friend was, like, I think that the reason Donna would have chosen to do this is because, like, she wants to show them that, like, she can still get them gifts that they want. Right? Which I think is, like, a generous read. Donna gets off the phone with Jackie. And she's, like, Susie, help me find the list. Help me see these pots and pans that Kathy wants. Mm-hmm.
They're lovely pants. It's a five-piece set of, like, Martha Stewart pots and pans. Comes with, like, a little saucepan, little grill pan, right? Saucepot. Do you think that Donna should buy these pants? I mean, how good is a gift if you're going to have to hear complaints about it for the rest of your life having it, you know? Yeah.
If I were Donna, I'd just pick another gift. But Donna, like you said, it was a generous read that Donna wants them to think that she can still get them gifts they like. Donna is absolutely doing this to prove to them that she can buy the gift that they put on there just to show how fucking poor and podunk and hillbilly Donna is. And she will be damned if she lets something like that happen again.
Fancy membership to a fancy big bulk grocery store and all of this expensive Martha Stewart pot money getting her way. It's an expensive, spiteful present. Exactly. If she's set upon buying this gift and she doesn't have access to the membership store, what's your move? Honestly, the win-win for everyone in this scenario, steal it. She spends no money. Big, big membership store is fine. Kathy gets her pot's.
Agent of chaos. Just snatch and grab, baby. The people who work there are old. They are not going to catch her. You're right. They they're 40 time. It's awful. Like you could absolutely run out of there with a set of pots and pans. You're yeah. This is great advice.
This is not what Donna does. Damn it. But Donna does do a hack that I know about and that also Susie found online. And now I will share it with everyone in case you ever need it. The hack is this. You go into the big membership store. You say, hello, I'm here. I need to buy a gift card. Then you go up to the counter. You say, hi, I need to buy a $20 gift card. They give you a gift card. Then you go back outside. You go out to your car. You come in. You say, hi, I have a gift card I need to spend. And they let you in. Oh, that is genius. Yes.
And you can buy more than just your $20 gift card. They won't stop you. Yeah, of course. They want that money. Susie learns this trick. She relays it to her mom. She's like, Donna, great, great news. I found a hack to get you into the membership store so that you can buy these pots and pans that you, for whatever reason, are so fucking desperate to buy. Donna, as you can imagine, whines about this the entire time. She's like, now I have to go through the Olympics. I have to jump over all these hurdles to get Kathy this damn gift. Yeah.
But she does go. She does go to the membership store. Set retails for $250. Jackie told her they'd be on sale at the membership store for $120. So she buys a gift card for $120, but then it's $130 and she is furious about that. Is that really what happened? Yes. I'm inside your head, Donna. Donna gets there and the pots are listed for $150. Oh my God.
150 is more than 120. Both of those numbers are more than the $100 gift limit that you are supposed to have on Kathy's gift. What do you do? Complain incessantly. Forever.
I'm definitely not going to just pick a different fucking present that is accessible and within the price range. That would be crazy. I think what I'm going to do is just give her the fucking gift card and you say, go get your own goddamn pots, you fancy members only bitch.
That's a great idea. Donna sucks it up and she returns with the pots and pans. Surprise. They're already gift wrapped. Susie is like surprise, surprise. And Susie is also like, thank God. Right. She's like texting Aunt Jackie. She's like problem solved. Christmas comes. Whole family gets together. They do their gift exchange. Everyone seems like very happy and things seem good and nice.
Uncle Luigi is like making cocktails for everyone. And Susie even gets to have one because now she's 21. Great news for Susie. Everyone loves their cocktails, except for Kathy, who was like asking Luigi to remake hers three times. She's like, this is not nice. Because of this, Susie, you know, out of the goodness of her heart and also being 21, volunteers to drink all the bonus drinks. Yes. Good mood, Susie.
Susie's like these drinks. You're right. They are too sweet. I'll have them. So Susie's had three drinks. She's getting snacks from the potluck table and she sees, you know, her aunt Kathy's present that her mom got sitting unwrapped. And she immediately notices that that is not the five piece set. It is the three piece set. Hmm. This is not what was on Kathy's list. Okay. Do you think that Susie should say anything? Fuck no. Okay.
I mean, Kathy knows what she put on her list. Like Kathy would see that it's not on the list and would, that's her choice if she wants to absolutely open that can of worms. But Susie's been drinking. So I have a feeling Susie's going to say something. Yeah. You know, Susie, she's 21. She's the oldest child. She's had three drinks. She is like whisper yelling at her mother, right? She's like, what the fuck? You were supposed to get the five piece set.
And Donna's like, I know, but the five-piece set was listed for $200, and that's just, like, too much for this gift exchange. So she's like, I got the smaller set of three pants that were in the five-piece set, and they're Martha Stewart branded. It's fine. Do you think that this is going to be fine? It should be fine, but it's definitely not going to be fine. No. No, it's not going to be fine. Before we continue into this hellhole, what is your opinion on gift receipts?
It just makes me think of I Think You Should Leave where he's like, why would you get me a gift receipt? I feel like that's what this party is turning into. Yeah, he's like, I'll eat the gift receipt.
No, I think gift receipts are fine and should be encouraged, especially if you're like not getting someone the specific thing that they asked for. I have no problem with gift receipts, but I have a sense that this family is going to be fucking weird considering they have some arbitrary rules about grandparent naming. So yes. Yes.
So apparently in this family, there are no like standards for gift receipts because usually the gifts are all under $50. So like, it's fine, right? Like if you get something that you don't want, that's exactly not exactly right. It's fine. The assumption is like, you'll just get the correct thing and it'll be fine. The other assumption though, is that nothing under $50 is really worth pitching a fit over, which is not this. Yeah, no.
What happened is Kathy and Uncle Luigi got home. They opened the pots and pans. They were fine with the three-piece set, really. They were like, this is fine. Then they opened them and they were not the right pans. Uh-oh. Like they were not the same quality as the five-piece set. They were like flaking on the bottom. Uh-oh. And Kathy and Uncle Luigi are like, we've done a lot of research on these pans and we knew exactly what we wanted and these are just not the right ones. Oh, are they going to ask for a gift receipt? No.
Why would you do that? You know that's not going to go well. I'm not even in this family and I know that's not going to go well. This was two years ago. Sell them on Facebook Marketplace and take the money and go get the pans you want. Yes. Great advice. Not what's happening here. What's happening here is Uncle Luigi is texting Donna. I will now read the texts. Yes, please.
Uncle Luigi, hey! Exclamation point. The gift you got Kathy wasn't what she asked for. Could we get the gift receipt? No rush. No rush. Donna, I do not know how you put up with it, baby brother. I got the three-piece set for $120, which is over the limit for these gifts, and it is a perfectly nice set. Uncle Luigi is like, put up with what?
He's like, all Kathy did was ask for a particular set of cookware and you ignored both the type and the set size after we researched what would be best for us and our family. The only reason we even put pots and pans on this list is so you wouldn't complain about it being useless fluff.
Oh, well, there we go. I will chime in here with a little bit of past history, which is to say that the previous year, what Kathy had put on her list was a throw blanket that was branded as cozy, chic and monogrammed. And Donna pitched a fit about this. Well, yeah, I feel like there's really no winning with Donna at this point. So Donna responds and she's like, I've been playing as nice as I can. I'm doing my best. I thought you would be happy to receive these pants.
Uncle Luigi, don't play nice on my behalf. I don't really give a shit what you think we would be happy to receive. You're doing the same thing you always do, whatever you want, and then forcing everyone else to be OK with it. Whoa, Uncle Luigi, gloves are off. Donna does a little typing dots, right? Yeah. The dots disappear. 20 minutes later, Uncle Luigi double texts. He says, you know what? Keep the goddamn receipt.
I'll get whatever we want without your approval. Donna responds. And she's like, I think that's a little harsh. Like both times were mistakes. Five minutes later, Donna responds again. I'll mail you the receipt, but I'm not going to apologize for not liking the way your wife treats you or for calling her out on it. How do you feel? Whose side are you on? We're getting near the end. Oh boy. Uh,
Right now, honestly, I'm like, Uncle Luigi, why would you do that? Instigate. Yeah, I mean, it looks like he was looking for a fight, honestly, because he escalated quickly. So currently, I think I'm on Aunt Jackie's side because we, in my mind, are in Greece together, hanging out and not being a part of this text message conversation. That's a great side to choose. You're just, you know, having some delicious grape leaves.
Yeah, if Donna wasn't being ridiculous in the text message, like if it had just been Uncle Luigi asking for a receipt, because I feel I have no problem. I usually provide the gift receipt with a gift if I'm not sure if it's exactly what someone wants. But to explicitly ask for a gift receipt for something is a little bit different to me. So my advice would have been, this is a great bite him on the face situation. But then she kind of...
I was waiting for one and I got one, but then she kind of, um, she, she retaliated in a way that I'm like, well, I'm not suggesting face fighting to anyone now. Yeah. The other thing I don't really understand about this is like, why not just take it back to the big box store? Like these big box stores famously will just kind of do whatever you want. No, he was, he wanted to fight. He wanted to fight and he got a fight. Yes. Yes. Yes.
The way that we got these messages is that Donna sent them to her daughter, Susie, who gave them to her friend who gave them to us. Because Donna does not believe that her brother sent these messages. Oh, my God. She thinks that Kathy did. Which is funny because when Donna started sending back like the kind of nice-ish messages in the second half response, I was like, did Susie take her phone?
Is Susie steering the car now? Yeah, we got some body snatching going on. No, I think that Luigi probably sent these. You do. I think that Donna has an inflated sense of Luigi's loyalty to her versus Kathy. Yes. I think that's it. I don't know. Now I'm questioning everything. Okay. I feel like you're going to tell me eventually who sent them, but I'm excited. Before we get to the very end, we'll do some updates. Yes.
Everyone has been, you know, as Donna said in the texts, playing nice ever since this exchange. The family obviously did not go to the beach this year, so they only really have to see each other at the holidays. But last year there was still drama at the holidays. Of course.
Because in an effort to get rid of this drama, Aunt Jackie got rid of the like adults get each other presents game. Aunt Jackie was like, from now on, everyone over the age of 25 is simply donating $50 to the charity of your choice. You bring the receipt. We'll put the little receipt on a tree. Everyone gets to donate to charity. Everyone feels good. No more conflict. Yeah. Yeah.
What is Donna donating to a charity for people who have poor taste in pots? Like... Yeah. Yeah.
No, worse. Kathy responds to this email and is like, you know, the email that's like everyone bring their charity receipt and we'll put it on the tree. Adorable. We're all doing this. Everyone else before her is like, great idea. I love it. Yes. Kathy responds and is like, this is a really good idea, but I don't think I'll be bringing a receipt for proof so that I can be judged on it. Thanks. Donna responds to that email and is like, I too will not be bringing a receipt to be judged on.
Oh, my God. Now, I mean, Kathy before I was like, all right, poor Kathy. She deals with this crazy stuff. And now I'm like, you know what, Kathy? All y'all deserve each other. So at least, you know, they agreed on something. Yeah. How do you feel? Who do you think the villain is?
I don't know, man. I mean, I think Donna, I think Donna did the ultimate supervillain thing where she finally turned, she turned the hero into the villain, right? Like she finally dragged the rest of them down into hell with her. So you don't think that Kathy started provoking this with the Mimi's shit that like she was always against Donna. Yeah.
No, I mean, I think, I think she definitely was like, Donna's not choosing what my kids call grandma. And then the antagonizing kept, I mean, Donna was against her. It sounds like from day one with this reservation thing, it sounds like there was always, always animosity. And so, uh,
Kathy had the audacity to try to assert her independence. And then as it grew, having everyone do say Mimi was a choice for sure. But then it just like kept getting more aggressive. It's like war games. Like they just keep going. So I think the original villain is Donna. And then Donna eventually, I don't think it took much dragging, but I think she brought Kathy and Luigi down with her. So now you think they're all villains. Yeah.
Yes, but I think Donna is the instigator villain. I think she shots fired first. Okay, two pieces of information for you. Oh, boy. One, Kathy did send the text for Monk Looney Juice. Should have known no man was going to be that direct about it. Fair criticism. And as you can imagine, Aunt Jackie is the one who figured this out, right? Because she is like combing for information. So she finds out that Kathy has sent these texts.
And at Christmas, she is like, there's more to this. Right. Reporter at heart. Did Kathy. So did Kathy send all of the texts? Like Kathy sent the first one that was like, hey, can we get the gift receipt? Yes. Okay. Kathy, any grace I had for you is gone. My dude. Come on. You were she was looking for that big old fight. But Jackie, you know, something doesn't sit well with Jackie. And she's like, I don't understand why Donna wouldn't have just given her the gift receipt. Right. Like what happened here?
And so she cornered Donna and she was like, Donna, have these two drinks and then explain to me what happened. And what Aunt Jackie found out is that the reason it was a three-piece set instead of a five-piece set and the reason it was a little dinged up and the reason she wouldn't give them a gift receipt was because she had bought the floor model. So it was non-refundable. Oh, wow.
Was it cheaper or was that just the only option? It was cheaper. Oh my God. And so it was only three because someone who thinks like you thought had already taken the other two via, you know, a 10 finger discount. Amazing. The floor model of not even the right pots and pans. Honestly, I'm just trying to wrap my mind around like, is it irony of like,
Absolutely digging your heels in to prove that you're not poor by buying the most expensive gift, but also not being able to actually afford to buy the most expensive gift. That was... Yes. Also, I will die on this hill. The two of them didn't want to give to charity, not because they didn't want to be judged by their receipts. They didn't want to give to charity. They were like, we're getting presents or we're not doing anything. Yes. 100%. I think you're right. Yes. Yes.
Does this last information change who you think the villain is? Or do you still, they're all? No, everyone is just made for each other. Yeah, I hope Susie and Aunt Jackie are very happy together when they travel around and don't speak to their family anymore. Do you think that there's a moral to this story that we could take away? Yeah, Christmas is canceled. Forget it. Get out of here.
That's the moral. Like, no, thank you. Well, Laurel, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and taking time out of your day. Thank you. This is wild. What a bunch of weirdos.
It was an absolute delight to have you on. Oh my God. I had such a good time. This is so fun. I still wish someone had either shit their pants or stolen from the big box store, but maybe next time. But well, someone did steal, just not any of our characters.
Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossip at defector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 Gossip. If you love this podcast and want us to keep making it, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at normalgossip. You can follow Kelsey on all social media at McKinneyKelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sudong-Loften. The
Defector's project editor is Justin Ellis. Our editor-in-chief is Tom Ley. Jay Tolviera is our production assistant. Thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned, subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney. And remember, you did not hear this from me. Radiotopia. From PRX.
