Trump vs Kamala with Mike Brock - MOB016
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There's, there's there's really two types of politics right in the world. There's the politics of power, and there's the politics of distribution. Politics of power is about the politics of figuring out who is going to dominate the other.

And then there's the liberal world. The liberal world is a world where we all agree that there is a thing called the rule of law that IT is supreme. We all agree that we live within that common fabric. And within that common fabric, you know, we are able to exert freedoms. The fact that we now are sitting here thinking about what are the possibilities available to me and what are the obstacles to those possibilities by the government regulation or tax or um or or foreign policy arrangements recognizing that like the fact that you're even having that conversation because you're breathing liberal air.

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I know yeah I need to come .

see yeah turns that I .

have some time on my hands. I can probably .

come down take some foobar and I am I don't I don't like not being in my studio. Now there's a familiarity to being in your studio, you're chair, you're in surrounding. And I I think because we we were a homeless podcast that roamed around the world regarding there be in bed when you get a studio, the IT becomes polivy.

When I ve got to say though, like with your whole get up here and the tatooed, you look, you look like .

you're right at home here. Yes, I think I know this l lay's. A weird place in that is so much wrong with you, but I fucking love.

And there's always an energy here, I think, because it's a creative place on my creative yeah I was like coming here and I yeah my plan today, once this is done, got a walk. I'm staying in the and moni going to walk the full walk down the Venus. See you will the crazy now there more back and I love her.

I I could live here. No problem. Part from the tax. Xx, have you get the taxes?

I mean, good. I mean, you it's it's been it's been a year of transitions for me. So obviously i'm i'm not in my previous role anymore.

I, I, I, I have moved into a new chapter in my life that started a sub stack. I started a sub stack. I'm going to see where that goes. Well, look.

that's going to be the framework for the conversation today. Me, you so I am really transport a lot of time understanding why the political discourse has got so bad, because IT is terrible.

And we also alongside that, we have, uh, I think we are living in the most fragile time i've existed, was having so much my amazing shit like we got amazing technology and but the something crazy to paradox, yeah, it's so weird one right and so I I started right and so you pink me the other a day on signal. You're like the this article, this reader and as I can, it's kind of similar. I feel like you you're at least a similar back to me was that this is fucked .

in serious ero x serious.

my sausages. But I mean, this place, i've rejected the political system. I'm out. I didn't vote in the U. K. Elections because I knew whichever the party I vote for us voting for decline. So i'm not i'm .

refusing you don't want to be you don't want to participate in the manage decline of your nation.

I don't want to vote for decline. okay? And so what I know and .

I make sense, I don't want to vote for the decline of amErica either. I think the same choice.

I am committed .

to its sentence.

I think you have a similar choice next month. I think you have any voters of think about, yeah, what we get to that. So anyway, so i'm my head space at the moment is in my little part of the world, is there anything I can do to contribute towards the reverse of decline? So what that means is i'm reading a lot. I'm started writing as well, and i'm trying to think of ideas, ways, means to be part of something that reverses at decline because got to speak remain open IT but is certain to revolutions often come from a divided society and often come from per request yeah I don't .

often come .

from like a wealth divide a grow wealth divide a bush was I in a protector um and I feel like we headed in towards I like I see I see the symptoms i'm like what can I do to be part so that's what I met I started right .

another article .

and where game we can talk about that rifts. The title of the article is the liberty ans need to step up. I'm not saying libertarian is the sole idea, but I think liberty, an principles within the current political framework, a part of the .

solution, so that I. today.

And and the reason wanted to talk to most of all is I I obviously get to talk to to a silbert rans, and I obviously get to talk to a lots of republicans. But I feel like the most important thing is talking to the broad spectrum of people. So you understand where they are coming from. yes. And so I know you are.

Democrats functional yeah I am I am. I don't consider myself a partisan no like you won't see me a trumping democratic party propaganda. You won't see me um being a engaging in pology tics for them, selling their policies for them. Um I am not a member of the democratic party in that sense .

principales.

but if if if what you're asking is um am I functionally driven towards supporting the democratic parties candidates such as their presented to me on my ballots right now?

Yes I mean ah in to the extent that I um contribute money um to a political organization in this country um I view the democratic party as the currently only viable vehicle available to me that seems somewhat coherent with my understanding of um the liberal society that I I believe is my inheritance um that was built up over several hundreds of years starting in a in a revolution in this in this country that that brought our forms of government into a bit of a uh disunity um as as as we as we americans and britts like to with each other about um but I I I I I recognize that um. In the what I would say, the healthy politics of distribution, which is what um look, there's there's there's really two types of politics right in the world. There's the politics of power and there's the politics of distribution. The politics of power is about the politics of figuring out who is going to dominate the other, who is subservient to who, who has the power, the raw nicean power, the will to power world. And then there's the liberal world.

The liberal world is a world where we all agree that there is a thing called the rule of law that IT is supreme that in this even includes your constitutional monarchy today, which is largely adopted these ideas especially in the twenty century and the postwar era um this idea that everyone I mean obviously IT goes back to the magna ta but is in perfect document but I mean at at the end of the day um we all agree that we live within that common fabric and within that common fabric you know we are able to exert freedoms that we wouldn't be available to us if we were all just like on our own as roommate bans and the willingness looking out for ourselves um trying to have band, it's not like steal our food away you know for us that yes we give up certain things um as Thomas hobs and his and oliva and famously may the argument for this idea that yet like we were actually more free as humans than we would be if we were living in our state of nature by by giving civilization control of certain things giving away some of that personal freedom to the state um and I obviously john lock the who in many ways was once again like that they are all people of of english and Scottish liberty um inspired um uh Thomas jeffson without the declaration of independent this idea um um meta tia ized into this this liberal civilization which is seen um in advancement in in human progress that is incomparable to anything that human history had ever seen before a given at the heights of the roman empire those were achievements that spend thousands of years. But these are achievements that we were able to undertake in the span of a few hundred years most of those achievements in the last third of that uh try fact of centuries.

So recognizing the importance of that, the sheer beauty of that that um and my belief that if there is to be a world worth living in in the future, at least in my conception of IT, that I can understand the past to that is through the continuation of these ideas um most importantly that there is something that's bigger than all of us, at very least if it's not a god is is is is society in the civilization which you are connected to that you came from, that you inherit, you're spoken language from and you're written in in in in all of your cultural references from um and you are you are part of that you can't separate yourself. You're not you're not this separate entity that existed out like you know, you want some role of the days are good to imagine sometimes I could have been someone who grew up in india or china or africa. So k, no, I was I was a man ah that was born in the suburbs of toronto, ontario, canada.

And the very fact that i'm sitting here championing champion the what I see is the virtues of english liberty in the liberal tradition um is is very much contextual on that I was i'm living in a former british colony in the shadow of of the american uh the american global order and its media that that embodies these ideas in and created this this liberal cultural fabric which is I think now is actually made I think I mean, I don't know if you think about IT this way. But I feel like more and more like western europe, canada, the united states really just seems like the same people to me now in a way that I didn't before um there is a familiarity you know, when i'm in germany or some or germans are here, there's something about the way we go about our business as a western society of of this of of this like liberal culture that even if we have disagreements between some of our countries are like various social policies or economic policies, they're still a throw line there. That's very familiar.

And I think that's been really hyper accelerated by american media as in some ways has modernized the western culture um and and I think that's probably a good thing um but I also think that people are misunderstanding something, that the fact that we now are sitting here thinking about what are the possibilities available to me and what are the obstacles to those possibilities by the government regulation or taxes or um or or foreign policy arrangements. Um recognizing that like the fact that you're even having that conversation is because you're breathing liberal air, you're breathing liberal oxygen, that you're even sitting here trying to engage in the politics of distribution, not the politics of power, because once we start talking about the politics of power, this all goes away. This all goes away because all of these rules are just rules and rituals that we follow every single day we get up out, we like there's there's nothing, there's nothing forcing us separate.

The politics of power. Politics are distribute for me. Can they can exist, or is is an ongoing fight?

It's not. It's an ongoing fight, obviously. But what we try to do with the liberal revolution, we figured out a few things, right? The american revolution was the first attempt at politicising this idea that we need a system of self government, which means that we need to distribute power.

We and we have to, and we have to make, we have to create and, and we know that power is always gna compete for power. So what do we do with that? Well, let's create three co equal branches of government that all, in theory, have the same equal amount of constitutional power, and each one of them can do anything without the other two.

And let's make sure that these bodies are assembled through different processes. So IT makes IT really, really hard for one singular entity trying to organize across all these different areas of power, the government. So they this was there like, and I mean, and that's where you get right of the famous, uh, you know the famous uh, quote, right an american republic, if you can keep IT.

They weren't shore right? The founder of the american revolution were actually, in some ways, quite skeptical that would all hold itself together. They were quite skeptical that the forces of populism wouldn't, in corruption.

wouldn't consume IT. Well, the forces of corruption have conceded .

that I would I I don't think I don't I don't think that know this is probably going to like shock people on all sides but I don't think of high modem k uh for corruption um in the united states or or even in in in the U K.

Compared to war.

I mean I I think I think if you look at our history, I would say that the the post war era um in the united states was a highly corrupt time was a highly corrupt like a lot of like the um um the amount of of of crazy like backroom deals that had been done for the war effort. Uh you know the the the war economy staff had LED to all these, like had all regulatory agencies that head called this power and there is a whole bunch of leg like IT.

IT was a very crude time like the regulatory state in the united states, as IT was also in the predatory era in in in the U. K. And like the sixties and seventies was a was a cluster fuck of corruption. And i'm in the case in the case of of the U K right like this is permission, like pernicious labour unions like themselves, like very very corrupt organizations um which are like extracting rent um for their own like political power.

There was restored that recently wasn't the guy driving the bed in the big house?

Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is, I don't think, great, a high water mark. I think create a high water mark for understanding the nature of corruption today because of our our social media, because of how many eyes we have on IT. I think I I really strongly believe this if we were to put today's eyeballs on, say, the administration of Frank condon, rose of vult, for example, in the in the great depression heading into the world world war, like the deal era, right? Um is this massive expansion and big government. Um I think we would have found like if we had enough if we had enough, where with all I think the scandals, we would have found the um the the the fraud that went unanswered, the the phone calls that that powerful people made at the FBI to look the other way. I think I think you'd find that stuff, and I think that would be quite out raging.

So I think we've made this sort of epidemic error um by looking at our society now and now, having a more total picture, what's going on and seeing some of them I may look at and by the way, like I know that we hate like to hate intellectuals now, but I mean like look, I mean like just just go and like read like nachi or like these these guys is in like in the things are saying it's like all these things, all the all of the political corruption and and all this stuff, like the elite like that IT was all happening back then. And like the intellectuals were talking about the exact same things that we're fitting here between like, you know, two very sophisticated condenser microphones in a very beautiful studio in less Angeles like talking about but like these are not new things that we've been competing sorry, like contending with um because look, human society is messy. There was competing interests.

When those interest are competing, there are different people will will go to different means uh, to have their interests served. Um some of them will pass beyond what we might consider. But then there's some and then there's some argument on the other side about how just far we going to enforce the law or not like like and and these these are all a big complicated interplay of features of our society that have been playing out. And so I am in some ways simultaneously more optimistic, but also like much to you what you were saying before on the strange paradox of our times that living in a world of such plenty and opportunity and um at the height of our of our existence and in every material way seemingly teetering on the brink of our own destruction, I am definitely worried about those tail risks and I think they get bigger by the day.

Yeah, i'm an optimist as well. Actually i've been coming optimistic because I forced myself to be an optimist. Because if you see a problem you don't do anything about, you could to pick your head.

You could pick your head on the line. Because the train make change, be the change won to see. So i'm an optimist because I am searching for solutions in finding them.

But I think there's been a Normalization of corruption and. I yeah so many things like here in the U. S.

I think it's worth here in the U. S. Than in the U. K. That every single senator who earns hundreds seven thousand dollars a year is worth hundreds million and lives in a giant house. And it's very good at trade in stocks that to me, as a Normalization of corruption and the .

false grows, elisa has the appearance of impropriety.

Yes, okay ah no.

I mean, I am not saying it's not corrupt and just saying that like the point that I would make their a is that when you hold an office .

a public trust um .

appearances are actually quite important as part of your obligation to society, as a respect for that office, to present yourself to society in terms of your own personal actions as as something that looks more like a role model um to society. So even if IT just so happens, that person has a really good wealth manager and they um like completely, just like subject all their decision making to them.

And I just so happens that their wealth managers are really good. I mean, you need to consider like maybe maybe it's is Better to put something into a blind trust and ignore IT um to prove to people that like that that that there is no impropriety like that. That much for what i'm saying is actually in support of your argument. I am think even if even if those people aren't actually corrupt, even if they just so happens, they just some self selection effect that there that they're going to be more successful. Their investments, they have an obligation to like go overboard and show us that, that's not what's .

fucking happening or government as a uh duty to legislate. So they can't yeah um but that's just examples but the the military industrial complex yeah and the endless cause, the pharmacist industrial complex, the prison industrial complex, all these industrial complex is uh I mean just even some of the things that I ended to view the guy yesterday who was ah it's got a programme about wrong works for people who have been wrongfully ly convicted of crimes.

The estimate two to five percent of people in prison been convicted wrongfully and he was talking about this time in prison. And IT would be twenty dollars to make a phone call, to make the call in five cents afterwards. We know in a free market that that phone call doesn't cost twenty dollars. Only one supplier of goods. And what do they call IT? The comments, the place where you can buy something jail little shop he was saying this only one surprise that everything is vastly more expensive and expertly um and then if you work for the the in within the prison, you get paid twenty five cents an hour like all these things are just to me, just exploiting disruption that .

passes a smell test for me of describing something is corrupt. What IT gets worse in the with the .

prisons is a large number of them are the backbone of small exist, the, the, the, the majority employees the prison guard's association actively lobbies against. This is this is just the corruption of man that exists .

everywhere yeah well I mean IT but but this is where like I I would say you're just describing political economy.

This is what political economists think about right um which is the the way in which all the interests come together um to a form a coherent hole in our society and so yes, like when you look at something like that from the perspective of political economy, I agree with you that it's corrupt this corruption of a kind but then as you've already started to note, once you started to tease that sort of a corruption which exists, that the scale of political economy um apart, what you realized is you got a whole bunch of fabric people in between and neither of them are individually corrupt. They all enter into contracts, they all went to job training. They you know are uh they they're paying their kids. They are school on from the the employment that they're gaining um from all of this. And at the end of the day, and this is the this is actually the delusion of the right wing populist today, that there's actually just like one cabal of people that are sort of steering the ship, is not true.

is is true that people .

think that I think so. I think so because when you talk about things like draining the swap IT, even like the thing is, is like we've already started to to to tear the threads here of like the reality of the swap. The swan isn't just government bureaucrats. It's the it's it's the the people at the at the the banks in mh shop that the bureaucrat is going into because if that bureaucrat goes away, their bangers in mass shop in in in london is gonna under the political economy is basically reaches all the way around us because we are part of the society we all like we interact with IT through our individual choices, through our a political relationship or the nature of power relationship that we have of the state um but we can escape these into relationship so we can confuse ourselves that we can confuse s into thinking that um the corruption is merely a creature of government towards merely a creature of particularly group of elites that go to David switzerland once a year um and and and and there could be like some truth to that in the sense that um these are people who who whose careers are about keeping the system stable which by the way actually like I I would say like to remind and maybe we should talk about today I just openly talk about my politics actually are and know we touched on that when you asked me if I was a democrat, but I fishing this yes, but but from this perspective, like yeah like these these are people, their incentive of stability. They want tomorrow to be a little bit Better than today for them and their companies and their interests.

And that makes sense that there's nothing prediction ous about that if you're on the outside looking in um and you see um these break downs of of political economy like the one that you mentioned there and that um and you look at that, you're like, well, because they want stability, they're standing for the status quo, therefore their defending this corruption. But then I think things good. I mean, I but but then I think what you recognize to is that when you go and talk to that davos crowd about that aspect of corruption, they probably agree with you at some level that we should do something about that, right?

Like, but but their inability to have the outrage that you have is tied to the fact that if there is outrage as you, their entire company would be on fire and a and and they be laying off tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people from their vantage point in their political economy. They have to prioritize stability, and that's going to inform their political disease. So people like, why, why, why is all of corporate amErica like mostly supporting combo herri? This makes no sense.

SHE has more leffingwell icy. Like, what is this? Woke capitalism? No, it's not. Woke capitalism is what I just said in the political economy of things. These are people whose instincts are to pursue stability. Of course, instability for them is potentially life and death for a company that is on the knife edge of a of of of profitability. Um you know based on its access to foreign keys and distribution and supply chains, that could be that could be impacted by sudden shifts and foreign policy radical unpredictable shift if you look at say something like that, you look at someone like trump who is is um holding up his mercurial as as a feature right the madman theory of foreign politics. You might look at calmer harasses like talks of Price controls and shit and be like what fuck that's like, not the kind of world that we want to do business and but the .

other this instability .

that this other guy represents, we don't even know what's coming. At least we can sit hearing like get our think tanks going and and start like trying to get our lobbies. It's like convincing the politicians on congress to like water down this fuck in Price control proposal.

We can do that. We know people. We can make phone calls. I I went, I went to college with this guy, right? Like you can imagine how in their minds they're like, yes, like we have no fucking problem standing behind commonly herri because that's the way that they're viewing IT.

They're not viewing IT as like we want to like protect some corrus status quo they're looking at IT from like I don't want to wake up every day with my whole fucking company on fire because trumper started another fucking trade dispute in vietnam. Like this, like this is this is the way they've view the world. It's not do this like like like political commentators like talk about like how you like, that makes no sense.

Like that that um friendly people like myself who's ec like my economic views, quite honestly, probably code what people would say in the united states or center right dish like I I am like pretty positive on the existence of a social welfare state. But I also think that um I want very pro business policies like a low regulatory environment. I'm pretty pro free trade like um a your .

classic .

liberal yeah yeah um and there are things that like commonly Harris and the democrats like currently support that I think are women actually in some ways i've been surprised uh by some of the policies she's prioritized like for instance like her in b policies the us in my backyard policies as as a as a counterbaLance to um the what we call a in imbibe right um this this this opposition to building housing um the fact that he is talking about federally enforced permitting reform um and in land use reform, I mean that tickles my classical liberal funny bone because I think it's like probably the biggest more than any of the inflation that we've had for anything else.

The the the run up in housing costs over the last twenty thirty years in this country, which were rising at like in even in the back in the bush era, or raising rising at like ten, eleven, twelve percent per year, we didn't like watch this housing shortage creep up on us. And that had and I just meant that the know forty fifty years ago, people were spending like a quarter, maybe a third of their income on housing. But by like by even the the the the the heights of the the boom times of twenty nineteen under trump, right, that had risen to fifty sixty percent of the average person's income.

And sure, things felt like they were doing good back then. But we haven't noticed how the biggest tax that americans have paid has been to their landlords because they Operate a housing cartel where they keep competition out. They don't let developers build.

So the fact the comella Harris has made a disrupting that enforcing land use reform, um I think he's actually from even my kind of more center right economic views pretty important uh from a matter assailants in the impact on on the average american. Um I don't think I don't see any of that coming from the the whatever whatever is happening on other side. I'm not i'm not ensure that that man is is fully with that these days but like I I don't think keys um uh proposing something like that. Um so I I just don't see these things in the in the contrast that IT seems like so many other people these conversations are seeing them which is in this very reduction ist um really old old school way of thanking like there's a socialist on the left and there's like the conservatives on the right and there's like this and in the reality is is like none of these distinctions tions make any fucking sense anymore like I like like why? Because they were largely irrational conglomerations of a whole bunch of series of like different view.

It's like it's an accident of history that um cultural conservatism and like in free markets found themselves marriage together um and I think the only real reason that happened was because of communism and because of the fact that the communist sts were atheists um and that was in some ways what a lot of cultural conservatives in the west actually originally objected to in fact, there was people recognize sort of the slow evolution here like you go back and I mean herbert hover, the republican president um when the great depression hit he wrote a book criticizing capitalism. Go on wiki. P yeah.

So I think like conservatives used to be very skeptical of capitalism and free markets because our conservative care about called virtue like like you want people engaging in prostitution or or or doing like you know like repugnant, vulgar things, traditional values, traditional values. And capitalism was just the opportunity for the more liberty in elements of society. And you saw this in in early one thousand nine hundred and twenty, the conservative of the time, but nothing to do with free market capitalism. IT was, in fact, like the the liberals, the sort of the um what you might have said was the center left back then.

but you had so many shifts in yeah in political culture.

But I think I think we're back there again largely um I think what we would describe as like the center left today, to the extent that there is support for um in this and others people screaming at us right now through the screen or other headphones, as I say this is really the only like like serious game in town for free market capitalism.

What is ah what .

we might call like the center center left aspect of the political spectrum?

What you can have to explain why that's only because IT .

is the only I mean, even though I wouldn't say it's exactly A A place for less a fair ideas to flourish today, um it's certainly a political space that's very much preoccupied with with raining in what IT sees the excesses of economic power, particularly the um um the the rise of the social media companies um really, really large powerful multinationals that that um seem to have more bargaining power than entire governments um has has has LED to that um that space not necessarily being very friendly to a hands off approach um and and I think for good reason, I I think there is dangerous access here um but what the reason why I would say like this a game in town if you're a free market capitalist is because if you're a free market capitalist, you should really care about the rule of law and impartial courts for like commercial disputes.

You should really, really care about a stable political system that's going to have predictable results that the when the regulation gets past, you may not like IT, but you know how IT will be enforced and IT won't be enforced based on that part that bureacracy loyalty to the current president or the or or or the current ideology. Once we start doing that, the system really starts to break. And I would say that right now and like this is like much to my sugar, like I I think the republican parties destruction has been destroyed.

IT has been destroyed. The party of lincoln has been completely destroyed as an institution, as a functional institution, as a failed state of a party. Um how because I think .

there will be a of the people say exactly same but the .

what in another era I was like I I am in some ways I am a like a secular conservative like of the center of like I am not like like I think like a conservative liberal if you will not not a social conservative, like like I don't know everyone.

I I I I, I go back and look if you don't believe me um but I was actually a very really advocate for same sex marriage, for example um even when I was associated with conservative politics because I was always on the secular side of things and those people still exist. The lot of them are royal cos now. But why why .

has the republic and been destroyed? Because because .

there .

was some poles at the moment, I saying the republican parties about to win another election qube significant polling dates shows that. So how how can party been destroyed? Or do you mean this? Your ideology is change.

It's not the ideology. The part is not functional. It's just it's trump in mega and and like the republican machinery is still being used, but IT has essentially been disassembled and a IT has been taken over by members of the trump family， literally is being run by members of the trump.

You sent members of his family into the R. N. C. After he secured the nomination earlier this year and promptly began redirecting republican, the republican national committee's funds towards paying for his criminal defense. Um uh in um the in the three cases that the special council j Smith had had had brought against him or so sorry, the two cases he's brought against him and the third and in georgia that's a state case and that was the moment I think that the real in Hardy died I could die at that moment right because if I was a functioning political party then uh the party would be not reader IT has to elect like member like you know uh local politicians, the at the city in the state level. Uh distract distract elections district turney they elect the the republic lan parties is is responsible for getting tens of thousands of various officials across this country elected in the various other levels of office um and the the machinery of this party is not is is not designed nor should IT be fully designed for the um disposal of just who happens to be the current presidential nominee or the president .

so are you basically in the public and parties become its own authoritarian? Do tata ship? Yes, I mean.

I mean the party doesn't exist anymore as an institution like it's gone. I mean, the legal documents are still there. But like has like the the the establishment that yes, the establishment of the republican party that was its binding function that brought IT altogether, that like kept things sane, has been removed. And the trump organization, its family members and its alo lights have been sent in to run IT. Like I don't understand .

how the the structure these parties traditionally work. I don't understand that the D. N.

C. works. I understand how the republic body, I mean, happened the back to corner traditionally .

yeah I mean, like traditionally the parties are a very powerful organizations.

So what what is is a board of governance for a yeah you .

have know the democrats national committee is a made up of committee members and there's there's ways in which h the party like comes up with ways in which those those those members are are chosen.

Are the the current like leader of the party like be at like A A sitting president tour like I don't know what all the crazy rules are, but like whoever like as seen as most senior, like might have some like appointment rights but like at the end of the day um it's not meant to be a dictatorship of a single person. There is many interests. Sometimes there are even disagreement with in the party you've got like candidates.

You have more centrists to democratic candidates who are running in red states that don't necessarily buy end to the same progressive policies that that a democratic candidate hear IT in um uh california buys into. And the party has to build direct, reconcile both of these differences and be able to like, put the party machinery up to get them both elected. Um where's in the .

republican body?

Trumps removed all that. It's not there in the in fact, like you one of the things that I think um is uh an undertow story uh going into this election uh in the next three weeks is how they destroyed their get out the vote infrastructure of the R N cy. They got to IT explain what that is to get get I mean you have I mean is the same thing and in the U K.

Or or or canada or any any other country um that has elections is that one of the one of the important functions of of a political party is to make sure that the the voters who are voting for them get to the polls and vote that can be everything from calling them, that can be everything from like knocking on their doors, that can be to offering them a ride to the polls for like the for the you know somebody who may be disabled. There's something um and so you get volunteers um to help people to help people um and the party creates really sophisticated infrastructure. They they they put a lot of emphasis into knowing who their voters are um and who we are committed voters are um and then sending out volunteers to target those people and make sure that they get their ballot in the ballot box. So both the D N C in the R N C A I could traditionally have like pretty sophisticated Operations at work with like state local parties um on on election day till like coordinate all this trumps trump went in there and he got at all this. He defended all this .

from the R N.

C like earlier this year. How does that benefit him though? And you're talking about that he thinks more than that head.

I mean that I don't understand what what's the benefit because the benefit of him as people out there .

voting yeah I mean he I just don't think IT I mean is why you have elon mosque right now like trying to with this amErica pack trying to cause elon mosques figured this out um that that trump just completely guided the R N cie. Get out the vote Operations and so elon mosques camped out in pensylvania right now basically trying he's going on top he's basically trying to uh orchestrate I get out the vote um infrastructure and these past few weeks to compensate for the fact that trump just gutted this Operation is this is actually .

coming down to pensylvania. yeah. I mean.

I think I think I think I think I think I think depending on which way pencillings ago, so we'll go the election. I think that that's a pretty safe bed at this point.

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I don't know what I think about that.

but well, I was discussing I was danny yesterday with Polly market a trip common election because he would go because it's different from the polls, president of elections when in twenty twenty four.

it's way different from the polls.

Yes.

although IT does IT. You know the the predicted market, which is the an american domestic market, americans can actually use polling market. You know this right? American citizens can use that.

It's not well, you can with the V, P, M, yeah well and that's pretty simple today because U K. People can use them with the there's no k boys say.

yeah, I mean, um. Betting markets here i've got like canale as at at forty eight um and and don't trump at fifty four.

forty and fifty two you've an yeah I mean .

but here .

is got IT so it's got IT at him at sixty point three in her thirty nine point. Math doesn't need but I I was trying to danny about this I I said pole to meet a pole is asking people who they got to vote and that will give you an accurate percentage yeah but if you see the polls that trump a winning A, I don't think a betting market is necessarily going to flack that a bear market that thinks is a more convinced once going to win is just gonna wing towards that. And so I don't see as A I think some people looking into sixty, forty on Polly market think, well, trumps this is a landslide. I just think the bedding direct towards what the polls are saying yeah .

so I mean.

what would your republican friends say you about the the republic lan party has actually been dead? And look, I recognize that. Look for anyone get angry about this position, just sten um there are uh republicans against maka as is a group. I follow on twitter. I'm even tried to see what they say.

Almost all of my republic lan friends agree with me. I'll get at least in private even if they won't come to like boat for como herr is like the none of them are voting for truth done of my republican friends or just either not voting or they're doing something silly like writing a candidate um but in most of them don't .

live in places .

where IT matter is any so republicans in yeah blue I mean among my republican conservative friends, of which I have many because I traffic in those circles on our Younger and Carried some mildness friendships and do I mean I don't have anyone that like actually thinks that like trumpet like is a good choice like um these these new converts like David sacks or elon muser um like any any bill act men like I mean my theory my theory um we should just go there but when we just go there they will make the conversation more interesting think t that up with just by the wait inside I become .

a politically inactive uh one of the best thing that outcomes that is being able to see with clarity because the inherent bias people have means and i've done IT. But I probe ed to people from either side, if I like in the U K.

If I row a labor voter on the performance of kiss starmer in these first hundred days are very defensive yeah and i'm more leave to say yeah but the conservative did there and so IT kind of ranges between defensiveness and what about ism um and if i've probe my conservative friends they're very direct attack on um the labor party very defensive of uh to the point whereby if you did a blind test with the with with the policy that was by both sides in you blind tester. I believe the the views were change depending on the party is proposing the policy. It's it's become bullet. So it's you just becomes easier. You have like have these these almost .

like these actors spects. So we can look at this, though I may like a galpin and pee due broad base opinion surveys of the american population every single year.

You can look at this where they go into every single fucking like opinion that anyone could have on basically anything and they try to get a pulse of like where americans sit on various things, everything from marijuana criminalization or legalization to um their views on like transgender issues um and obviously there are some like divergences here, but I mean like you, you essentially have overlap um in terms of policy agreement by sixty to seventy percent of americans on virtually everything um levels of tax. How much should the rich pay? Like what should like, you know, like, like, should we give like poor people money? Like all these are things like you essentially have this like actually really robust, if actually everyone just SAT around and did IT a really robust sixty, seventy, seventy percent center that seemingly can agree, unlike most things.

most of the time be about that. I mean, we all know this is the loud minority, the control. This is the loud minority who are the extremist s on each side to drive the debate.

They create the majority of the content. They create the talking points. They create the arguments that they're activated by the political parties themselves. You we have things agreed that I think on something a lot of issues, you would germany be more progressive than I I am and then .

things I would be more concerned speak, I don't know if we went through .

the the topics, but let me let me just put in front, make even even even if we had somebody who who wasn't even conservative on economics, you proper boke lefty. I bet if I can sit down, we could discuss the issues and and kind of come to some kind of rational conclusions, things that we agree on. Yes, I mean to the point.

But this other article I go coming out where i'm like telling the liberata to step up, I said, can we just agree on some foundational things that we all want? I think we all want, this is the basics, a strong economy, anything anyone disagrees. We all want lower taxation if we can have IT, okay?

We won't reduce poverty. We want less corruption. We want good health care.

good .

education. I think IT doesn't want, I don't think on any of those there with the four maxes. I think pretty much you sit down with whether something is a libertarian, super woke left, is a super conservative right in person.

And you said to them, do you want a stronger economy? Both would say yes if you. They would all say yes if you said you want Better education for your children.

I think they would say yes if you want cheap, a Better healthcare and Better healthcare outcomes. Yes, I would want that. I think we do want more security, joe, a Better role.

I think we all agree on that. And so the point is I think we kind of all want same things. The argument in politics is how we get there.

Most people do most. Some people do want power. Some people do want to dominate others. Some people do. But just the relationship of their ego with the world around them is is not in a healthy place.

But that's the action. What i'm saying is the best. What with the outcomes, I think everybody wants pretty much the same.

I would go hide. I would say ninety five percent, ninety nine percent would agree with those. It's how you get that in that maybe a conservative party say we would.

We need to get there by more dv relation and lower taxes. Whereas a the like in the labor U. K.

Say we need to get there with higher taxes and more regulator. But they trying to get the same outcome. And the truth is what we need is a objective intellectual, uh, uh, uh, answers for how we get there. Yes.

that that means cannot have that you want to have a conversation about the politics of distribution while sitting or having a conversation about the politics of power. yes. And the problem is once we're talking about the politics of power, the politics of distribution is all academic.

Like we don't have like we're I mean in U S. Like there's no it's not hard for me like I I proudly voted I already I did my male in ballot two days ago with my wife. I voted for como herr's and tim walls. I voted for the ticket even though doesn't matter, i'm here in less Angela is she's gonna in this state none of its electoral votes vote handily um with no reservations none why? Because what you just said that most people want the same things even if they want to go about IT different ways.

I believe that about coma Harris um from from watching her I believe that SHE generally wants the same things as me um even if I disagree about how to go about that and of which there are substantial disagreements that i'm um i'm not at liberty to get into right now because i'm not going to help the one ald trump to his job i'll mean more than happy to speak more openly about my first apprehensions about like about about her policies um once like i'm not having a conversation about the politics of power in this country because Donald trump is a not a good person. He is clearly only out for himself. He clearly only cares about himself. He literally went to a memorial service for a dead man um that was supposed to be a samba affair and dance to the village people's Y M.

C.

A. I don't know any people like this man is a narsisi sociopaths. And it's not hard to see that this is true because he has not shown an ounce of empathy in his entire life. And so even .

though I saw a bit of IT, no, it's unna. You should say that did you see him on the theo on podcast?

I didn't actually .

it's a day or if there was something that that surprise me he went to see is the van's podcast and theo talked about when he used be addicted to cocaine.

yeah. And why I did see this. yes.

And the way trump spoke to him.

an awesome about IT, I knows he was curious about IT, is there is a curiosity there, yes, but I look, this is going to sound flip in in flagrant. And I I don't trust them. But sure, i'm sure they hit a real curiosity there because as people know that Donald trump has been afraid, very afraid, his entire life of mind altering substances. He does not drink alcohol, he is he is afraid is fine.

Interested i'm not sure but .

I imagine I could imagine someone like that who um has avoided a mind altering substance is an entire life. Um getting pretty curious about um some of the experience.

There was an empathy to his way he was a but the point you make there .

about I don't give a much I give credit sorry.

this is so me able to me set out on this one. I don't have a good fairly I don't have a horse in the race. I can't vote in the U.

S. selections. Yeah, if I could. I don't actually know where would I possibly? I want to vote for camera. It's I don't I probably still won vote at all to be answer probably one vote because it's still manage vote for decline.

But the things, why do you think why do you think it's going to drive into decline?

Uh, why do I think? Yeah because I I think you have a root issue of corruption and and the U. S.

system. You have a root issue of debt. H M mt doesn't work despite what definitely .

and say think the government currently practicing A M T I I.

they think they are, I think I .

know they think that, I think they think they are fucking following like chicago school monitors m badly. And either way.

Neither nobody's proposing an answer to deal with the massive issues of spending, debt inflation. Now nobody is proposing any that no wonder yeah so what I mean one one of .

these one of these proposals is going to accelerate. Our are declined to debt on the order of five magnetites. If you want to go by with the wall street journalist, not hardly a left wing politician that compared the economic impact of trump and commons stated economic policies sixties, but looks like the sixty three percent of economists, including the wall street journal editorial board, all came to the conclusion that commonest economic policy was going to be far less damaging for the united states as fiscal trajectory than trumps.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't even know to trust these things. Any move didn't .

conservative.

but did fifty three ux, uh, F B I, C I A, uh, uh, employees state that the hunter biden lapse of top board, all the hallMarks of russian. This information in I did IT was bullshit. I did bear .

those hard.

Yeah but he was bullshit.

He was voiced IT was IT was simultaneously IT was simultaneously his real laptop IT was simultaneously um what IT appear to be and IT was also a russian misinformation of that was meant to try and use opportunistic like I am one hundred percent convinced, by the way, that both of these things were true the same time I totally understand like the the journalistic and uh editorial mistake twitter made um in in suppressing the story in building and and honestly, that's actually why the russian and that was so fucking effective in our system because that is actually what what what the russian a russian influences Operations in our country are aiming at.

They're not aiming at kind of convince us that the hunter biden laptop is fake. They're trying to get us to show that we're hypocrite s that we're corrupt. Look how stupid we are. Look at how the left over react. This is actually the reaction .

that they're trying .

to get me exactly what?

Yeah, but listen, exactly. But if the laptop is real, is is no proper gram. If the stories .

of people be real and propaganda.

how how can somebody be real? Be propaganda? The story is true. The laptop was real. The story was suppressed .

let's back up for a up for I get IT so like I mean this the the the story uh on this this the iranian anian hackers apparently stole all of this um information from the trump campaign that we currently know that journalists are currently sitting on and don't want apparently don't want to a uh irresponsibly publish because they don't want to interfere with the fucking election. No, i'm serious. I want I know I just want to like like really digging in here a little bit because there is a crazy .

amount of fucking hypocrite .

Y A poon poon sense like, you know, the very same people right now that be fucking outraged. If whatever those dossiers and information that the iranian hackers have put in the hands of journalists who have yet to, maybe they will publish them between now and an election day. But so far they have chosen not to, for reasons I don't understand.

Could you imagine. What like the the populist right? And and people would be saying if this was was twenty, twenty and the the the tables were reversed.

yeah IT would be .

like hunter IT IT would be like the hunter bite in laptop times a million .

about my sport about sm it's not what .

it's not what about is it's not what about .

is that .

you need to ground yourself in like what the fucker we actually talking about here because like look I get IT like is crack added sun um and like probably I don't know what what he was on. I walked into that fucking store like high on Matthew whatever he was fucking doing and like forgot that the fucking lap there and like left whole bunch of like fucking videos on IT of him smoking fucking crack and all of their shit. And honestly, if I was a journalist that happened upon that, like you know, a few weeks before fucking election day in the middle of the fucking covered crisis and everything we are going through, and we had a president that was like talking about like fucking like putting bleach on us to like wash fucking cove IT out and also knowing that the that that yes, like there's just like happen in two thousand sixteen with the coming email thing that turned into nothing but many people, including like nate silver, believe probably throw the election to trump, like would I be like a little bit hesitant, uh, to just basically put IT out there and be like you decide amErica I mean, what the fucker are we talking about like like trendy s basically like say this is like like like like obvious like corruption we're .

sitting here with .

like journalists like doing whatever the fuck they're doing to try to be responsible about this. Like iranian material that's hat that like no one's talking about that we know that they're in possession of right now. So like what the fuck like like which which way do you want IT like is is that corrupt at those documents haven't been publish.

I don't know the details that so I don't know anything of .

i'm just dealing with this. If you're going to start with this principle, the public has the right and like nobody has the right to like basically keep, in fact, chip first before, like basically irresponsibly putting something out there that could potentially be russian disinformation like we don't know, we haven't checked, like we haven't got our forensic experts on the fucking laptop. It's kind of convenient that just a few like that, that a few weeks before election day like i'm just i'm not trying to say that like that was that, that was right. I'm simply trying to say that like if you're in that position, it's a completely reasonable thing to think that like maybe this is like russian disinformation like IT has, like you said, like the hallMarks of IT and and honestly think that IT IT probably was somewhat that in the sense I I think the republic, I think I I think the russians helped IT along. I think the russians helped along Juliane .

finding that fucking laptop mabe. I have no horse in the race. This is what i'm trying to make. I have no horse in the race. I'm just trying to say I want.

And even now we got here from a number of people said thing, the point in trance says is that is so hard to know what to trust or believe anymore. IT is so so that in difficult, but have no horse in the race. So I just shared all the argument is you make about a trump.

I could equally make about camera. I could make equal es about 哈尔滨 呢 nci stic sociopath who whose only interested in power。 I make the all politicians .

that are successful somewhere on the arising scale. But like I do, I believe that he will put her own interest above everyone else to the exclusion of, I look at, I look at her relationship with her family and like the people around her. And I look at the relationship trumping in the people.

He, he doesn't even have loyalty. He does even like one of his own daughters. Like they like only even like look at is a can mbaru asie and like a broad view his wife one hold this fucking hand you seen all the video him slapping his hand away every single time he tries to to hold this does not seem like a man that .

um is good at putting others before himself.

There are both equally the same kinds. And crazy I think.

crazy I think what we do right now is we contribute to what I see is the problem.

No, we're not living in fucking reality. We're living in reality. We have choices in front of us.

And like, reality was, is that like, look at john eph Kennedy junior you know although this is exalted like leader and he deserves I think the the part the credit for being the the most powerful norm ative storyteller of amErica in the postwar era um madly stop until like reagan um at that time and you know like he was also like A A corrupt fillin rer like we know he pro his family had like relationships with the with the with the mob, with the mafia. Like we know we know that those like connections were there IT wasn't a completely clean family. There was shit going on. He had his brother, as is like a attorney general, right? Like in the way in one of the most like nepotistic relationships like I think that if you were to get underneath J, J, F, K, and some people have and people don't want to look at IT because they want to have a very polyana view of of J, F, K.

And for a good reason, he said that is his his inaugural speech when he was first sworn in, right? They asked not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country, right? Like that was that was the line that set the stage for will come afterwards you know famous as famous speech, right a calling to to land on a man on the moon and return them safely to the earth um you know we we want to remember that and we shall want to remember that but he was also a deeply flawed man that that was surrounded by personal corruption.

And he was like fucking maryland row cheating on his wife. We know that like it's like I don't know why we've convinced ourselves that we didn't have bad choices in the past, and there are just some choices that were less bad than the others because unfortunately, the realities of power are very brutal. They're very brutal.

If we find our way back to hob ses state of nature, we are going to struggle to find our way back, and hopefully we will be alive on the other side. So we've always had to make these moral compromises. We've always had to do that.

And we've always had to be like, grown up about IT. And like, this is the world I live in. It's not the world I want to live in. We all aspire a Better. But by the way, that is part of liberal culture, by the way, that is, that is part of the liberal oxygen that we breathe. This idea, this pretense that we have, that that that things should be Better, that this isn't right, that that there are sense of fair play, is like, like we actually have our own yard sticks that we can like, measure ourselves and others against constantly, to the point where people like you using those yards sticks get justified, cynical about all that, that corruption that you see, and then you don't even want to cast a vote.

And then you have me over here telling you, uh, as the infinite pragmatist that like yeah you really do want to contain the damage because if we're going to turn the ship around, it's gonna a lot easier to turn the ship around if IT has less a damage than it's going to have on the other path. Now I don't necessarily think that I can speak to starmer and uh, in the U. K.

I I haven't been able to pay as close attention to IT. But do I think that kala is necessarily going to manage amErica into decline? No, I don't. I actually think that amErica is at the beginning of an actual new, uh, economic renaissance. If IT wants IT, I think, uh, this will make you know the sound money theories really upset.

But the united states has basically pulled off in amazing feet, right? Sure, it's a heavily indeed nation, but it's also it's also put itself in a situation of mutually assured destruction with china, at least for now because china's entire capital stock is like oriented towards like its export markets. IT doesn't have the internal uh, consumer consumption right now, especially not with all the the local wealth that went up in flames with the with the real estate bus.

There's no way they can like just like juice that demand without creating a hyper inflationary episode that basically collapsed as the u on. They know that there's stuck. So they need export markets and they need them badly.

And the united states is like sitting here and it's got consumers and it's also growing its manufacturing base backup and its moving its manufacturing to japan, into vietnam, at the south korea and to the dominican republic of all places, you know of IT you know and so um uh the united states is actually um I think has really pulled the the wall over everyone else's had here actually it's in a very, very strong negotiating position even as IT pertains to its debt structuring like long term, it's technological advantages. Its cultural advantage is its capacity to accept immigrants into the country. China doesn't have that capacity.

It's a monoculture. The racism of the home chinese against leg um you know again against like all other like ethnic groups is so pronunciation and insane. IT has LED to experts leaving china over the last five years at an alarming rate.

a cultural genocide of the weaker.

Yeah, yeah. absolutely. And so this idea that like amErica is entering a period decline, well, it's like, but it's decline. I guess if if if you want IT, if you want, if you want to uh do what trump in his ilk wanted do, which is to withdraw from the world um which is the the source of all that power and leverage. Or just like talk to about um then then yet you will you will you will, you will push us more quickly into something that looks like decline and you will simply allow china and others to gather their strength against us and carve up the world if that's what you want to do um which IT seems like a great number of my county men want to do. Yes, then then, then vote for danny d trump this.

Well, okay, so there are a lot of very small, successful people who want to vote for truck.

Yes.

more than fifty percent of the country may over trump in the next, I know. But rather than talk about people.

no, I think wish you talk about the us.

I H I H I english talk .

about Peter tel. I finish to talk about David sax. These are, these are public figures that have put themselves out there and are absolutely uh uh the game for direct criticism and questioning of .

their motives. Quite on the honest .

my .

my point. The question have is even forget these public figures who may have business interest, libertarian principles that they think are a more achievable to trump, but which I thinks where you're gonna go, but part of IT. But why do you think don't trait may win the selection? What you with how do they see the world differently for you? How do they see amErica differently for you?

They live in a little different information environment than I do. Um they uh they consume uh media from a set of demagogic organizations that um make money making them angry. Um and can you .

not make the exact same argument to people who would vote for carmilla? I mean, my dad s doesn't T T .

think of course, there's negative partitioned on on the democratic side and i'm acting out of negative partisanship against trump and I yeah I mean, they said at the of the day, like you you're making some Normal tive judgment about like what you think is like right and like what you think the the suman bonum of your like existence and like you're gonna say, well, like i'm voting against that and and for this like you there's um there's a sometimes like when I try, I think of myself of like where I am as this like weird like like I said before, like something that looks like a conservative liberal and try to like imagine like where where I exist now um in the tapestry of these conversations um I should say like what I mean by conservative by the way and like in the intellectual food no no, no I mean I mean the idea that yes, stability is needs to be considered against the forces of change that when things change too quickly society can come apart at the scenes that takes time. Society needs time to adjust in his mechanisms to work out its disagreements internally to the culture, through the media, through political debate um through elections, through all of these like aspects of democratic deliberation that that that permeate our society is not .

just like a pessimistic view tho, is there not that that that change could be good, instability good. But but but what I mean.

what is what is rate of change? Rate of changes, everything in nature?

What is that you fear, policy wise, that a trumpet administration might do that might lead more instability he's taking of?

He's taking an end run at our at our rule of law, of our system of government. I mean, like I I get some people in the media bubble where they think january six was just, uh, little protest that got out of hand and that they don't situate that in the full context of several weeks and months of Donald trump deliberately, deliberately basically winning that mob up into thinking that their country was literally being stolen from them in election conspiracies that everyone around him, including his own daughter. According to reports, ivica, we're trying to convince him to basically back off from and everyone around him eventually, including his own attorney general at the time, one of the most conservative, like evil mother fuckers, put honestly like should look into his his background on the bills bar OK and his connection to the iran contra fair. I would suggest I would suggest this is this man has a very unhealthy addiction to power and and belief in in the goodness of power um even he was pushed to his limit on this election conspiracies and resigned.

Hey, listen.

I I in in in in in in the in the lame duck period I .

look and I am aware the georgia phone goals and such .

as the georgia with fucking full slates of electors that he and his crew that he was speaking to like every single day I mean, read the the Smith and ditech that just came out yeah I just read the whole fucking thing like read the things that he was doing that they that they have testimony on, that he was doing he was coordinating a uh a whole group of people across the country, across multiple states to create a full set of electors and then try to pressure mike pants to acknowledge those, the real sectors on the senate floor that was a conspiracy to steal the election. Like I was .

about to raise my penis as actually he he is A, I think he is a bit of a hero in that phase. And that he stood up to trump would not? He went. He wouldn't follow what just wanted there. I think, I think people have forgot about .

what my pints stood there, by the way. Again, no, what stability.

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I can objectively see what happened there. I saw the hand build up and unaware of the phone call. I'm like, i'm aware of all of this.

And then what I see, when I see people who are p trump, pro republican, promethea, they will come up with any excuse for this. Yes, they will. Yes, they will say as a conspirator, whatever.

They will find a way of washing hand. This didn't happen. Yeah where's if the same actions had been done by somebody um who was in the democratic ty? They would have been up in arms. But I see this thing happened both ways. I've probe and provided um voters of camera on certain things such as immigration policy, uh trans a policies and they would SHE doesn't know what I bring up, they .

would defend event.

And I believe .

the state of .

point of uh um that people have drop their own objectivity, they ve they've winning, has become more important .

than now come because that's that's the politics of .

power yeah and but that's where we are and it's like so i'm that go right back to the very start of this is like how do we get out of this? How do we escape this? Because I think this is what is the managed decline. I know your optimistic .

that were the decline and .

decline to the we are in the cultural decline economic to to. okay. So I would say we're in an economic decline because we're getting the middle class. The distribution .

wealth is.

is, is, is, is so IT. I mean.

have to look at the middle class in united states is not in decline.

I'd have to look at so oh.

this is one of the biggest bullshit arrays, ves, actually both. But about the first left and the the right are telling the story is .

to have a Better because I know in the U. K. Is happening in .

the real wages. Real wages are up. The over last two years, we have surpassed twenty, twenty now in real wages again.

And no one wants to justice. yeah. Like wage growth has been really, really high, particularly in the bottom quintile. In the bottom quintile wages today that the bottom twenty five you take for those people know how quintiles work. Take one hundred percent of people just, uh, divide the population into into four parts and take the bottom part.

Those people have seen their wages grow, I think, since the end of the covet lockdowns by like thirty two percent or something, which far even if you look at combined Price inflation, I think and like the CPI is about one twenty two percent um fully big. Then these people are actually um having the largest amount of net disposable income that they have had in their entire lives right now in the post code era. Now there are some groups of people um like the the upper middle class in particular um that have seen consolidations in their industries.

The software industry has not necessarily been very good to employment. Um there has been certain certain groups got their asses handed to them when the assets bubbles um deflated uh in in in the coveted era. And these people feel like they're poor than they were before, but they're actually still quite like rich and and richer than like ninety eight ninety nine percent of people and there are the people there are the people in these in these conversations that are that are waxing like poetic about the the middle class.

But I don't know if you go and ask the middle class, the median voter in this country um how they're doing economically. You can look this up right now. It's it's like eighty eighty percent of people say they're doing financially fine OK.

So real wages in the us germany in the line over the last four years, we consider flag, while nominal wages of risen inflation is a road Operation in power leaders who a decrease in real wages. The trend began during the covering ninety pandemics and supply train disruptions .

measures is from twenty.

from twenty twenty one three, twenty twenty two. Inflation significantly outpaced wage growth, leading to a drop. The real wages, yes, although inflation is moderated, someone in twenty twenty three real wages have only recently become to recover slightly, but remain below prepare demise levels in many sectors.

Rising costs is like health, and health care and food are further contributed to the cline real person power for many workers, particularly the lower income brackets, low wage workers saw the most significant real wage growth, particularly those in the tenth percent, all who experiences a thirteen in point two percent increase between two, nineteen, twenty, twenty three. Middle and upper middle wage earners, however, saw smaller gains or even slight declines in real wage growth depending on the inflation metric. Use, for example, wage growth measure using C P I, which we not fucking bulls shit.

There's less favorable outcomes to the personal consumption expendable index, especially for workers in higher income brokers despite previous twenty twenty three real wage growth. Means on the even cost. So I mean, look, but you might .

have just at just look at people's for ort like when when you this is this is what the economists and talking about with the videos tion. If you ask voters two questions and you you can like try to like google these studies to look up the the vibration stuff .

vibe flavor .

so no vibe session, not video lation vibe session inflation real inflation session .

and the .

vibe session is like the feeling that we're in a recession even though or not um basically um most americans when they're asked, are we doing am I doing well? Eighty one percent of americans in the believe a galloped survey said yes when they said, how much do you believe the rest of the country is doing well sixty I think like sixty something percent said that they think the rest of the country is doing very economically poorly.

There is a complete disconnect between the average american sense of their own economic well being um and how they think everyone else is economically doing. There is uh this shows up and i've tweet about this like several times as these like studies have come out. I mean, I can't find the data.

but but I don't believe the data. I've just looked up proof viewpoint.

which point that .

that that will I think real wage growth has been in decline. Inflation adjusted .

IT has recovered in in twenty and twenty four. We are seeing high levels of real wage growth right now. So you're actually seeing this actually even in .

the polls today covering people's view.

the economy .

are rising but he said is below prep andel c levels .

yeah but like I recovering.

I am not trying to discount .

the very negative experience of inflation that we've had in this country. But like literally like look at IT, like have people's quality of lives diminished if we look at like indicators, like what are americans doing? Are they taking time off? They going on vacation? Are they taking flights or are they doing going to disney land?

Like all these things, americans are doing this stuff in record numbers like we're setting like all time records in the hospitality industry for americans in this country right now, like like not just like the riches to the rich people like we're talking about. Like all like, you know, all consumer spending groups are engaging in the hospitality industry. Like glittering, the height of of like what what anyone would want to do .

that in have to if if they experience real world wage decline over the blast four years. Now, how are they affordable to do more with less money when things are more expensive?

Because because they're making a lot, because there they're finding new ways like to make money and to save money.

But make sense, mike IT doesn't make sense because .

wage IT doesn't IT doesn't make sense.

It's happening. I need objective data prove that because wages well.

IT says, like you said in that in that thing by twenty twenty three, like we have modest real, but that has continued to accelerate into twenty twenty four. We've seen this quarter after quarter, real wages have .

been up at point .

one point one percent, like point two percent, point one percent like, like, like like, like, like month after month after month after month. It's been creeping back up.

I'm not buying IT because I am not buying IT domestically in the U. K. I know it's not true and .

very well, I mean, but not the Grace created your own like to shit over there and by by taking yourselves to the european and common market. But like, but I mean, like, look, the the U K. Is a completely different dees than the united .

states here in the united states, and people who tell me that things different to you, okay.

I mean, I listen to these people. So I disagree with, I disagree with read on the data and and actually so I mean, do most economists, but not that they respect them uh .

according to get up another sources, inflation reduced purchase in power during the period and even though inflation called in twenty twenty three and twenty twenty four, real wage growth remains modest and uneven across different sectors, works in lower income bracers have seen the most improvement while middle and high income earners have struggled to see meaningful gains in real wages.

The wealth gap is like decreasing, like wages are coming up at the bottom and they're struggling at the top like I mean .

me because we started mean saying the middle class yeah .

i'm trying to say i'm trying to say that people like me.

right? You're not middle class.

I'm not middle class as i'm saying. Like in some like the the asset bubble deflation that like I live through delay massive damage to my personal network when that all came crashing down with a inflation. And I know a lot of people around me that like look at that and they're like, I just want twenty nineteen back and like, well, twenty nine was bullshit because you're a in a zero interested policy environment.

And like. And like this and like risk capital. So like it's just this sense that you have these people at the top that that were basically enjoying false wealth effects right now are complaining about their like stagnant real wage growth when we're sitting here. And and by your own acknowledgement, the poorest americans are seeing their their real wages increase at the fast, right? Like it's like, no, what you're actually seeing is a healthy realignment um in the society as a result of more healthy interest rates and cost of risk capital like in in and that's that's that's like leading to and and we see this americans use of the economy are I have been rising steadily this year um with the major I think now slight majority of amErica and is now saying that the economy is actually pretty good.

Ah I am not disagree ing. And as a good thing this time point was get where I came from domestically in the U K. Sadly influence my my questioning that policies are reflected in the middle class.

The most that's the the middle house has been invested or I know is in the U. K, is a fucking nightmare. What's happening in the U.

K. It's going to get worse on abe government. And I actually believe the policies of somebody like carla will be worse for the middle class.

In what way? My expectation is .

there will be continuation of money printing, but that be under any administration because the level of debt we cannot avoid that there would be more.

What do you think happens? McDonald, trump is talking about ending the independence of the federal and I, and make the predicted .

to the.

what is this comparison?

I believe the right here, what I said, like I said you, I believe decline is what happened under either party .

of the orders of magnitude rence between these two things. When you're talking about money burning, it's just like it's like insane. It's like your best. It's it's like sure. Like, I mean, I I I .

don't think it's .

like an apt comparison, but like I i'd rather the chemo therapy than the tumor. Like, I mean, I mean, like the chemo therapy is going to do some damage to my body. What was the .

level of money printing underbidding administration? I mean is the hi is never right as a percentage of gdpr .

yet I mean the the cover tea has been like disaster. I me at the you think we are really going to have this conversation around like the the fiscal responsibility of the republic lan party .

from twenty teen put this on the .

fucking table because no one ever talks about IT when we talk about like the democrats were the left and their like tax and spend .

polis like one thing, I am always talking about the fiscal irresponsibly of government because I think they're both up to the right I mean I saw this ridiculous tweet yesterday about uh uh inflation being a highest and under the bide administration and um that was retweet like by iron a mask I think you just put true and his point was like to to blame and a take the democrats but we know that there's a leg when from money printing and expansion, the money supply to inflation. We know there was a massive stimulus under trump. A lot of IT was cause then we know that .

trump will claim that there was no brought to our deficit up during a period of economic boom to a deficit that actually like reached the levels that we had seen in the two thousand and eight financial crisis. In trumps mistry, we had federal deficit that we're getting up like one point eight, one point nine trillion dollars per year, which were levels we had not seen in since two thousand and ten two thousand and eleven in um after after the after the the the financial crisis in the great recession had hit and yet like his government had brought in, had disposed of massive amounts of of of revenue to the government um following this grover norquist, an sort of drown the government in the bathtub uh idea that republicans have have been sort of gaming out since the ninety nineties.

Sometimes known in uh in inside the bet way as the as the star of the beast philosophy you have this pernicious group um by the way, like even as and I hate to these people when I associated to myself the republican politics because their view of the world was, take the government's revenue away. IT will run up debt and when the crisis comes, people will realize that government is not the solution to their problems. This this is known as the star of the b strategy by a pernicious group of republicans uh who's like brain child comes from the sky name grover norquist um who is uh basically a tax act advocates that s all taxation is staff like most like libertarians um and that has made to a situation where the republicans have been incredibly dishonest with the american people.

They win elections on promising tax cuts and not actually doing the unpopular thing of cutting entitlements. And that has allowed them to contribute to this fiscal decline. And assumed as someone like commonly, Harris comes along and says, you know what, we actually are gonna like poor pay for, uh, the poor. The poor kids cant cancer treatment.

They come along and say, oh well um well, you know, like like how can the government can't like a forward any of this stuff? And then when commonly hair, I says, will all raise or raise corporate taxes back up to twenty seven percent, which is still lower than thirty five percent IT was before the tax cuts in job back in twenty. And then people say, well, that's destroying capitalism and free markets.

It's not an honest conversation that we're actually having about fiscal responsibility here. There's literally one party that is actually prepared to bankrupt government on principle to prove that the government is not the solution to people's problems. They can actually live out their um their weird fantasies of like wealthy industrial alist running the world like that.

That is like what we're talking about. So even if common hera is coming along with yes, like I think I think SHE needs to be a little bit more if I was if I was in my world to be a little bit fucking honest about this, he would say, you know what we are on a fiscal trajectory that is unsustainable. Um we are going to at some point enter a debt spiral.

Every economist thinks this who is worth their sault, that at some point, this is going to happen. And we don't know when it's going to happen, but IT could happen. And we also know and we also know .

that americans want .

certain things from their government. So we're going to have to have an honest conversation about the taxes that were willing to pay, the levels of taxes that we're willing to pay and who pays them. And we need to have a healthy conversation about the politics of distribution.

sure. okay. So under George w. Bush, the dead increase was four point nine trilling.

A percentage increase in debt was one hundred percent. Debt as a percentage of G. D.

P. By the end of his term increase from fifty four thousand to seventy seven percent. Then barack obama, eight point six trillion. But obviously we know that was two thousand and eight.

He inherit to be at three to four years of the worst recession this country had seen with the great depression, so that the you expect governments to not necessarily be.

And really, I think there was a boom because I really stimulate to the economy.

I mean, the economy took a long time to get back to low employment.

Had a housing is a real, real yeah .

G D P earth, yeah I mean, but like, but IT IT was, we fell a lot and the climb out was growth. But he took a long time. I mean, can just look at look at the GDP.

Let's see these numbers. So that was a dead increase of at eight point six trillion. Yeah uh percenters crease in debt was seventy four percent. Um 呃， deaths is a percent GDP uh, increase from seventy seven, eight hundred four percent a Donald trump seven point eight training a percentage increase in debt, thirty six percent debt as a percent of GDP uh increase from one hundred and four two hundred twenty nine percent uh joe biden uh projected by the end of the time will be seven point nine hundred and so about the same as trump uh projected increase in debt from twenty four to twenty five percent and protected ditty dd py of over one hundred thirty percent so essentially speaking donor trump and job I and give take a few billion of been about the same.

You could just come the trajectory right now is different is IT. yes. Like right now on our current trajectory, um we we will in the next five years face a mass like we the the the graph is accelerating up into the right um in terms of our uh in terms of the the from a fiscal sustainability perspective, the serving costs on that debt right now have now exceeded a trillion dollars per year and an interest payments and that is actually rising really, really rapidly as some of that five year and seven year paper is being ruled over onto new treasury debt at higher interest rates. And they were back you know in in the height.

So there's this massive fiscal Cliff that's like ahead of us right now. Um as we roll over that low interest rate debt um onto this higher interest det, that's going to cause massive ballooning expenditures on the debt service costs. And yes, somebody and so when I look at that and I look at what Donald trump is saying about like great policy, and I see what he saying about like terrorists and all other crazy shit yes, common heroes like come here is policies of like actually trying to go and raise revenues with somewhat higher taxes on certain aspects of the social of our society um as well as her um various other proposals do a lot less damage on that trajectory. But he will not avert crisis. He will still meet crisis but he will meet IT sum up more down the road trump will accelerate IT if he says.

what I got some interesting memes for you so one thing that lost members didn't account for is that both George w. Bush and bar obama for both eight year terms, I just accumulated .

both but .

and .

George every three, five and so point .

three five trillion in in two thousand. One, his first year draws bush and the biggest year was his final year, one trillion.

But that makes more sense because if you go and look at what happened to the deficit after the tax cuts and jobs act was passed in twenty seven twenty uh IT IT IT balloon uh IT IT the size of government revenues collapsed um ah IT IT did not do what paul yan and others had promised was they said IT would actually increase tax receipts from more economic activity the only evidence that we have uh that the tax cuts had is IT did seem to spur a little bit more capital investment companies um did seem to increase investment in in productivity um and. Um taking building but marginal like five to six percent increase ultimately in ka in in capital expenditure by companies that that was probably affected by those tax cuts. But for the most part, for the most part IT IT IT just LED to wealth effects among among the people who .

who owns that capital, ots.

and like to massive deficits for the government.

So in two thousand seven, he was a half a trillion with George bush, and then IT was a trillion in two thousand and eight.

And two thousand eight is .

when the financial crisis. So I expect, uh, year was one point six trillion. So that is within two years, uh, a tripling on over tripling of the the the dead increase.

Now a obama in two thousand was one point six five. But then you started to drop. So went one point to one point to one point one, one point out to one point of five and then one point four two in this final year.

I always wonder if there's like a bit of extra spending the final year and that that's because they want to win election. But anyway, Donald trumps first year, not much beyond obama's first year. He went from one point forty to one point five. Then IT was two point five in two thousand and eight, and three point five in two thousand and nineteen of three that was covered.

Two thousand and nineteen was not cover cover didn't hit until only twenty. That was that was the result of trumps tax um basically exploding the deficit um because the republicans cut taxes but they did not cut spending.

Let me go go back to that then let me check that and then final years three trillion, then joe byand again increase thirty year three point four drop to two point six two one, then back to two point four. And so what IT seems to me is like firstly um twenty .

twenty seventeen and twenty eight and twenty eight were the up until recently were the periods where everyone agrees we had massive economic growth and that was a period where government revenues were declining rapidly. And why was that happening? Because republicans were cutting they were cutting taxes without cutting spending.

Yeah so which which .

which by the way is dishonest as fuck. I'm sorry. So he got so twenty .

twenty the U. S. Government past several large different packages in revenue of nineteen relief economic security act to put two trillion ah that increase around three point five twenty and twenty twenty two to large relief measure by impulse american rescue plan for at one point nine and then furthering uh direct payments and decrease or so I look but I think, yeah let's just zoom amErica has what you made my point .

for me about the about how trump balloon the deficit at a time when the the country was like in a massive economic forum.

No, no, i'm not not discretion. But what i'm saying is generally like if you if you zoom out, amErica has a debt property. America's government has .

a debt problem like administration .

after it's not .

like a it's not party .

but like .

yeah one trillion .

of there's six seven years .

about this before before real crisis and and when .

the rule cross hits, whoever impose going to take the blame, they're going to try and blame previous parties. But it's the problem of government historical because there is a dead problem no wants to deal with. This is thing i'm trying to say is like it's fact as why I vote got I think we got a similar as extremely we got gotten moderate two point fortune of that.

Peter, I think the difference between you and me is like I don't think politics is and something you do with the ballot box. Politics is something we're doing right now. Politics is something i'm onna do when I step outside the door.

Um it's we make our choices. We have a simple we have a simple duty. I have simple duty as american citizen um uh in this country as a pertains to my obligation to uh participate himself. Government is picking the person given the choices in front of me that um along a few actions of considerations one of which is like how likely is this person to actually be able to take power um for good or for bad in the cases of Donald trump he's very likely to take power and I think he's a very, very bad person so I um I start from a position of a little negative partisanship to be to be honest with you and then I take a look at something like cama herr's, and then I evaluate her um and in some ways um have there's a lot of things that um I could desire out of her, but I I also don't think that she's this leg disaster like that. Um some people are making IT out to uh out to be .

um I think there must .

be Better candidate. Her views are pretty pedestrian and centers views that aren't really like that for the ballpark of the kinds of politics of distribution that you're talking about even in the second term of the George w. Bush administration, with like the advent of like things like medical part d and stuff, people forget that like under the George job of administration, republicans were expanding welfare programs.

Like metic party was like one of George job bushes like seminal achievements the republicans put through which was to pay for prescription drugs for for people on medal that was not a democratic thing um there was a time in this country that was like literally George I bu bush um and and then you have like to the obama administration and people thought he was going to like go far left and like actually like a lot of like people on the far left now view them is like a corporate democrat that like to side of the big banks and stuff like. I mean, the reality is is IT like, come on here. This is probably just like more of that like she's just like she's a career politician.

Um I don't think she's terribly ideological. I think she's going to be pretty responsive to political gravity. She's I think she's trying to adapt positions that will get her elected. And people say, I H no no but but no but like hold on a second no are they like truly held potions like I I mean like look, we most politicians that I studied very very closely, successful ones um career politician are largely just um like professional politicians are literally just people who are just like trying to uh find some way to connect themselves with the political party around themselves and the people outside and they're trying to mediate um a political relationship um and and there are professional politicians that are like I like biting is kind of like this too like he his people always said, he has always his views always been whatever the middle of the democratic party is that honestly, people get mad at that and they say it's inauthentic and it's like not down to earth and it's .

like not what they .

like truly think and think I don't really give a shit honestly if commerce is looking at calls and SHE saying to herself i'm onna believe like whatever like the middle of the amErica believes like whatever I said like in the fucking primary debates of like twenty. Twenty and twenty at the height of like the the black lives matter fewer you know that that was like consuming this country. Like I like like whatever.

Like I don't need her to basically like basically convinced me that she's like adopted some elective ology. I'm like relatively sure that she's not ideological and that sh'll actually be somewhat steered by the forces around her, namely, what will get her, or no, what will will get her elected. What what people actually want, what what people in the middle like, want to see in the kinds of policies that they want, which is, yes, stricter border like regulation you ve seen there is completely embraced this. He just completely accepts that the only way that the center at this point is going to recovering ze around like her is that democrats are going to have to crack down on immigration and the border policies so she's done that and people say, but SHE isn't really believe that .

she's gonna get in and she's gonna and put in policies that that people want.

And why are people so mad? You're saying it's inauthentic that she's doing this.

so she's changing her reviews that .

are more you ask for the politicians giving us what we can.

I tell you the only thing that would make me vote again. Some like we have a similar det problem, the U. K, two point two or two point four trillion.

So we're magnate ose lower than the U. S. We have a, uh, uh, a deficit, a government deficit of running about hundred billion a year, which doesn't sound.

I say you really kept me out trouble earlier. I was really.

But I see the trajectory of debt and I see the trajectory of these know lin order tells us over over again the the inflation and interest, uh uh journey we go on the road casa here they will have to print more money that will lead to more inflation, that will lead to high interest rates. And I was going to get more volatile because nobody wants to do with the that problem. Well, the only way I come back and though, if somebody says we're going to deal with the that problem.

but is that the only reason like why is that the only thing I order to you like doing you really like you have a you have a fucking um uh imperialist uh revanchist imperialist power um at the at the eastern frontiers of of of the eupeptic on and like and you have china which is like with its like confusion ist institutes that at your great universities uh in the U K. Like literally like trying to like eat your like democratic way of life a alive from the inside out and you're sitting here telling me like i'm not going to like politically participate until until someone until someone gets the books in order like the yeah that I just think reason OK.

Okay, we are in a managed decline because no one will deal with the debt problem.

but not the reason were in a managed decline.

We are in a managed decline in the U. K. Then i'm gona tell you we are in a managed decline. And see, I give you one great example. One of my business, one of my businesses now i'm thinking of closing down.

And the reason i'm thin closing IT down is because the number and and actually other businesses I was thinking of open in, I may not bother now, because the ability to create a business and generate a profit and a return to myself that makes IT worthwhile is the dimension there with me and is diminished e to public, to government policy. You start with, you have a business rate at the start, that is attacks. You pay before you start the business.

Then you start the business in your employee people. We have such strict employment laws that becomes so expensive to employ people, you can't mark up your products enough to cover IT. okay.

And then by the time you get to the next year, just say you make a profit, just say you do, you have to then pay CoOperation tax. And then if I get a profit, I pay different, different tax if I choose to save that money. And then they talked about increasing capital gains tax, two thousand thirty nine percent. I look at and go, the risk reward does not exist.

Now, the risk reward does not exist for me.

IT doesn't exist. A doesn't people. And why does that exist? Or why do we have such high tax? And why are they taxed everything? And when they find a new taxes, increase everything because they cannot get spending under control.

And this is only gonna get worse. The life, the lapa is gonna tested if they increase capital gains tax of thirty nine percent, as every room would to be done. We've just seen they've done IT on big one in italy.

You were going to see we've got, we've got, we've got a mass exist, a millionaire from the U. K. moment.

Now, a people on the level, so of the tech or no, they're y're not text or just people love either. They're worked hard, maybe been a bit, Lucy, their paris worked hard. And they don't want to have their savings of visceral because government can get spending with me, my right now.

And the point being is where is where is this all land? We are not going to get growth from redistribution. Growth isn't coming from there.

And so we're not gonna growth and that is going to increase. And they're onna keep attacking uh uh uh a people through taxes and the tax burdens percent G D P is going to keep growing. They're gonna keep her and more and IT means we are heading to our own Cliff that we're onna fall off.

And when we go off that live, I don't know what happens, but I think is pretty fucked in bad. And so for me, IT is the primary issue of of today is to solve spending, solve there and not have the kind of scary inflation that we've seen this countries. So so that's IT.

But here's the thing. I mean, if you want to like get, I mean, if you want to get the the the fiscal sustainability of the U. K.

Under control, then you're gonna have to get economic growth back. Like clearly like the political economies of this is not going to simply let you cut spending without like complete social disarray. You'll just black. I mean.

I don't know. By the way, I believe there's a hundred billion .

you can cut from government. Maybe maybe but I know here's the thing is that at the end of the day um and look I look I i've listened very carefully to to um you know the the music of rostered um in in your country um you this reas politics I I do and .

I I follow I .

thought yeah I is I don't know the whole monkey does IT with .

as a cambell he was the warmonger yeah he was a tony blaze party column .

I spin doctor .

was for red war yeah and and i've i've listened to the debate he took us into the red war he never .

take lewdness .

ship for I even they were talking about reason is like i'm still fed up the people like that's the first question they bring up the interviewer he took us into a fucking war where we killed hundreds of thousands of iraq and destabilize the region keep owing the .

question mother fucked yeah let's you um yeah I may I have my my own views on on on the high war as well but look, I think that's that's actually like a pretty a word discussion of itself and how that I I I think we've been living a different reality how that were not happened um but I don't think you get trump by the way. If you don't have the iraq.

we pretty don't leave the E U.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But on my point yeah .

so I want to .

stand what i'm saying. I do. I do. Um but I mean brags that was a was a massive self inflicted wound on on a country that had made uh itself made a like from a just a basic trade perspective. Uh U K had created a bunch of comparative advantage with its uh uh with other with other a parts of the european in terms of like the service sector and the financial sector like the like london london of rebate, the rebate um and um the brice's convened themselves that you are going to become like conka or singapore fucking the dubai of fucking and I never really understood even at the time um because I had some a friend there he lives in cheek .

in in london and he was beautiful .

and a he was a brazier and I still argue with him on behalf of remain. I would get in these like really tense uh uh text message conversations with him about IT. Um but yeah I mean like the the U K. Was able to export its its like professional class in in a really effective way within the european markets. And IT wasn't clear to me like when you actually looked at like trade flows, what is the U K.

import? What does an export know is obviously has these raw material sectors that aren't terribly efficient um IT just seems to me if you isolate this country now from the common market with all this comparative advantage you've built up, you are going to destroy like a massive amount of economic activity in this country um and that's going to wine. That's going to have serious deleterious affects um uh throughout throughout the economy of this consequent.

And then and then and then something happened that the break tears weren't counting on right which was the the a lot of them like the sort of you neo thani and sort of neo regni an uh, thinking to themselves. We're going to have another like, uh, one thousand nine and eighties where we're going to like deregulate, deregulate. We're going to embrace the the the animal spirits of the free market are going to like come basically blowing through, uh, the the the the the cities in the towns and the hamlets of of of the united kingdom.

And then finally, funny thing gotten in the way is that um as always happens so you have a labor government now is that like things things don't variables don't tend to stay cost for very long. And so a lot of that free wind that the U. K.

Had at its back from that comparative advantage built up you know with with the city of london um which was a full room of the U. K. Economy and its its competitiveness um there um was just taken away.

Um and now people still want their health care. They're still met at the N H S. They still do all this other stuff and they don't stop fighting for that stuff.

And you and I you're doing IT from a far less efficient economy with um and now you're having to pay higher borrowing costs like even relative to the united states because at least the U S. Has the the trade flows in and out of IT to to command a little bit more of a premium um then say the U K. Does where you without .

without breaks IT. I still think we would be in a similar age position because look at the rest of the E, U.

I think the E, U, and the U. K, will be doing Better if that didn't happen.

Sure, but we are still all happy of debt. And I mean that the problems of the E U. Go way.

way be on. I think that I might be plan ish about this. But like another there's another alternative history there because you're seeing this right?

Like you're seeing um in a manual micro in particular and some of these other like figures in in europe that are now trying to talk really, really seriously about like really having a tough conversation about the the relationship of of the government and the private sector. And you have like micon sounding increasingly like that tche r and the eighties right now. Um I think you had I think if the U K.

Was still in the european union, like given the way that things have gone like particularly coped, I think the UK would have been a really positive influence on helping push some of those reforms quite honestly and honestly probably having survived a very close exit referendum, where are they stayed in? I think the E U. Would have been uh, in a far more uh, performance mood after that, having felt like they had just like had a brush with death.

And I think the U. K. Would have had a lot more leverage. I think I would like to maybe a lot more reforms in brussels um and and I think that that that possibility was was denied us by the by the surprise result.

Yeah, by the way, I was, I tell the story where IT happened. So I actually voted remaining. And also, so one thing, I was a class berry. And when I went to bed, I was with my kids, I went to sleep and I looked like remained one. If the pole lime has come about, the early votes coming about remain at one as a went to bed and woke up in the morning.

Typically I, that's like the english version of kind of burning man is A I took my kids get to get breakfast and this was like wandering around waiting, like crying. So are you got to go? You okay and she's like, can't believe, I can't believe that we're leave in the years.

So huh I like, I thought remain one. She's like, now the best city is one. SHE was crying her eyes out as I huh didn't see that. Come on, see that happen. But I still to look, mike.

we misread something. A cosin apology of, like me misread something at that moment. The including, including in the drop moment, twenty sixteen. We miss.

We misread something. Well, look, but population is always a reaction to people feeling unheard. And so there are criticisms of populism is but I believe I believe all politics is a former populum. I just do um it's anyway I don't agree but I don't .

I don't think I don't think curtesy arvin. And silicon valley is pushing as a form of popular m but like.

yeah but look, it's there is there is a significant part of the U. K. Population that fell unheard. Okay, they just felt unheard and they felt life was getting harder, was so more difficult for them.

And and I and I was, of course.

IT was, but they were. They were shown a theatre of why was happening. And you know, they voted. But I still fundamentally believe the numbers might be slightly different.

We would because government overspend, we would still be in a position where we would be run in the deficit and have a debt problem. I hundred believe that would happen because it's here in the U. S. Is happen in japan, is happening on through all western liberal democratic, is happening through europe. I don't think us not have a breit, so he takes me back to my same position is that I am only interested in anyone.

But what is that you think is happening there? Because you think that you if I tell me if i'm wrong, but that sounds like you you're saying that the real culprit is this a regulatory rage that you have in in um uh in the U K. And the high tax.

I get problem. I I get the margins. I get the margins that that can have negative like economic growth effects. But I mean.

you ask me question, you tell us OK, the problem is, is you have a household budget and mortgage and a house and Carlos and body, everybody has these things and you get paid and you managed that budget through the month. And sometimes you take on that to be able to pay off, uh uh, to be able to to buy things you want yeah you know how's gods what ah but if you don't pay that that you lose your house.

If you stop paying and your credit rating goes, you can't borrow anymore and you have to run a budget. But when your government, you have this thing like in your in your office where there's a about you can print more money if you need that and you keep to keep print and you socialized the losses of everybody else and you just keep going and you the can down the rose. Unfortunately, this game potato one administrations gonna come in and they're gona have to deal with the .

collapse mathematic political economy. Yes, to political economy problem as many of our our big our big problems are like this. Why we there's libertarians like know libertarians, right? They're best when you're pushing things like public choice theory and things like that.

They like um in in in in their critics of this stuff that I know. I think that um that's when they are their best and then I think that's when we you need to like really think like deeply about um these kinds of like perverse incentives. But um but like the thing is is like keeping the music going.

Another day is another day for us to have more opportunities, more technological progress, more political progress, more cultural progress, more opportunity for us to people like me, hopefully to reg, organize and reorganize around. Small a liberal ideas which as I said um much earlier in this conversation, I think our incredibly important for um there being something that that seems like a positive future. And I think there's a lot of people that um are very much diametrically opposed to that.

I think they want to rule the world. sure. I think they want to be .

literally rule the world. So back to my point about what we bring me back to vote. Do you understand the position i've take? I just marry. I N I understand i'm .

deeply frustrated by IT because I think it's very obvious ous to me that like if if you can even if you believe what that you do, if in the case of, say, you are american citizen, which I recognize that you're not. So i'm putting you in the same unfair hypothetical situation. But I mean, if you're sitting here .

telling me like i'm .

just like not going to vote because neither of these candidates um suggest to me based on the things that you've said, like uh, a sufficient understanding of the the necessity of the the fiscal llama that we're in my my view is like this. It's like well you you shouldn't be trying to convince them through your vote.

You shall be trying to convince americans that they should care about this that when they picked their candidates and um you know I could in parties like figure out like who they're going to put up for election like one where are the other then you hope that that sort of a downstream of like a really important cultural conversation of like what's what that's what happened in the new liberal era with the the rise of like a thatcher and reagan. You had folks like milton freeman who was an a powerful communicator of his ideas um and was hugely influential on what would become sort. What we think of is like this, like modern um conservative thought, like new liberal thought, the rise of the washington consensus in terms of things like trade policy, ultimately culminating in in bringing china into the W T O in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven, which in retrospect CT was maybe a serious political mistake. Um but like the the the like there was there was a moment time where those ideas we're able to capture um the the the the minds of a very powerful politicians like like that troy, like reagan um and honestly even even tony blair, I mean his third way socialism in a sense was just a package in a liberalism for the labor party .

um he was very interest yeah no .

this might mean he was a rebandage in a liberal like he was uh h he called the third wave. They called the third way socialism. But I was gay yeah .

is new labor .

but what the intellectuals called that was third way socialism, which was just basically a funny way of saying, yeah, it's capitalism but like we're also going to like do some taxes and welfare programs which was basically like, okay, but that's just like democratic liberalism too I just this is stupid is the same mediocre with a different word but anyway but but I think that that that that was like a really powerful moment where like people like really believed in those ideas.

And now, because we're having, like I said earlier, we're having conversations about the politics of power. There isn't really much space to have these conversations, which is what this is about, the politics of distribution, the politics of, like, how much money should we spend, how much dead should we take on as a society, how much taxes should we be willing to to raise to pay for the things that we think are important. Those are the conversation. Those are the politics of distribution. And we absolutely have to have those conversations, again.

back to the politics of power. Final question, because we run in our time. Why do you believe the silk value? The neighbors from here, uh seem to all .

be back in trump o because they think he's bought and paid for um I think ill on mask uh uh and David sax, uh in particular recognized that donal drop is out of his mind. I think they recognized create you just like sit there and like watch that like like the rally of like muston and trump in the the awkward conversation of them sitting in the tent with each other and stuff like that. I mean, there's no way that must doesn't realize mean masks crazy himself, but there's no way he doesn't recognize that trust completely out of his fuck mind.

I think what mask because he's kind of close to this like ball silicon valley that's like really close to people like urban and and and to you know these guys like black masters and and ultimately like jd vands, the senator junior senator from ohio who is now on the ticket with with all old trump I think I think they they honestly think about there's a real chance that um does not truly either maybe die in office or maybe something may will be some major scandal pretty likely and then and then um um um someone like trade events could could try to invoke the toy faith moment with the majority of the cabinet and then that would be a good yes. O K, yeah I think I think I think theyve gotten paid for vance. I think vance is A A true believer of curtis urban's idio logy. And I think he's playing this mag a game. I think he thinks these people are all a bunch of the ots.

He was very tim previously. yes. I think he .

thinks are all a bunch of A I think trump is a and I think these people, I think these people are playing A A shell game. It's why, like, I mean, musk is clearly just making shut up like you mean he's like and he's clearly like now fucking with the Albert meters, many men, there is a lot of good like I do a lot shit. There's a lot of good evidence though that we ve seen um that I started to see some like viewer impression graphs on some really, really well followed like A T trump accounts that have just like fAllen off of a Cliff um in the past few months um which I think is I is an election interference no I mean a .

private company .

you can do what the fuck IT wants but but you know I think it's I think he needs to be called out and people need to know like what IT is um I think that mask uh I think must mce must realized you can be president because a um he's not a natural borne citizen but I think he thinks that he's bought and paid for the trump administration.

I think he's going he thinks he is going to get to run this government um essentially um through the back door and I think um he thinks of ants is gonna help help them do that? You should probably careful because I think vance is a very, very figure in american politics. Um I I believe I mean just I would recommend to go and read his or his interview with vanity fair from two years ago where he um or at the very end of IT um and there's audio the audio recording of the interview was released um so you can hear that he wasn't quoted out of context um he he said that I think trump is going to win. Um I think trump is going to uh run again and in twenty twenty four and when he does um he should come into power and then he should h once he's sworn and I think he said something to the effective that trump s should then fire every mid level bureaucrat in the whole federal government that is like that stands in his way um of enacting his agenda and if the supreme court um tries to stop him then he should a invoke I believe a the former president Andrew Jackson by saying the chief justice has made his decision and now let's see him enforce IT he literally openly called for a constitutional coup i've repeatedly tweet this out many times over the past few few months um to try and get people to to to see this um IT is definitely um worth a read and trying to 方案 的 this memory said it's arranged .

to avoid having children now three days ago no it's for two years ago I have here is called .

inside the new right where .

Peter deals placing .

his biggest beats can you send that to me on？ I will but here's .

the thing yeah here's .

give me a big i'm going to read i'm a read through for maco this is vance talking and by the way that the audio version of this interview has been been released by the by the journalist so you can you can hear IT out of his own mouth um if you think he's being misquoted or quoted at a context. I think trump is going to run again in twenty twenty four he said.

I think that what trump should do, if I was giving him one piece of advice, fire every single midd level bureaucrat, every civil servant, to the administrative restate in the administrative state. We should talk about why that's illegal under the panda contact um but that's me talking and replace them with his people. And when the court stop you, he went on stand before the country and say he quoted Andrew jack and giving a chAllenge to the entire constitutional order.

The chief justice has made his ruling now let him in force force IT. This is a journalist speaking. I agree with his sentiment.

This is a description essentially of a couple. And vance, responding to this, says we are in the late republican period. Vance said later, evoking the common new right view of amErica as rome awaiting its seizure. If we're going to push back against IT, we're going to have to get really wild and pretty far out there and go directions that a lot of conservatives right now are uncomfortable with. So I mean, woman, so when people say that he is just just like thinks he is a small government, pro business conservative, that's on the view on he he either advances literally using mosque, he's using trump and he is deeply mashed and you should and your viewers should look into the the ideology of courtesy.

Urban um um I probably need to write uh a sub stack on this out of detail um but yeah I I have serious questions there about like what the motivations of some of these these silicon valley elites that are giving that are talking to from what I hear from conversations of people I know close to some of these these people um are talking with him like almost every day, giving him advice on the debate or giving him advice on how to like I know that we we're talking with with dawn junior who ultimately convinced trump to bring vans into the campaign and and vance had developed a very close relationship to don junior, which I think was helped along by a lot of these like feel teal accolades and we started to like piece IT altogether um yeah I I think there is I think there is a group of of sinister rich. Powerful people who have a serious weed up their ass um about the fact that they're now heated by everyone for blowing up the entire world by like you polluting our brains and making our kids depressed and and and uh and suicidal and the the whole the regulatory state is coming after them linkin wants to break up their countries and they're like, fuck this, fuck you like I am like a self made fucking man. I'm done with this shit this is what the democracy is going to vote for then I want some of the shit that kurtis urban is selling.

And I think that that's what jd van like represents. And I think a lot of people are too fucking stupid to see IT. And if you just like, literally like read his own words and read some and this, listen to some of these interviews that he has had even since becoming the center of ohio like that those that quote from him in twenty, twenty, late twenty, twenty two, not that long ago, is he is with a straight face talking about overthrowing the U.

S. constitution. Like what what like how is how are we having a serious conversation on whether not commonly heros is worse or not? Because because she's not going to get our fiscal fucking house in order. And you literally have a guy over here who is literally talking about telling the supreme court to go fuck itself and do whatever and rule however he wants to rule, like, I don't know what is going, is going to take to get people to wake up from the fact this is like deeply fucking serious, are not making this up.

This is in a conspiracy theory, this own fucking words, a reputable uh a reputable um journal and uh and the the journalist has released the footage and he said things in other forums that like like like that back IT up. He's defended these views like people have like released footage of him like uh having like this like conversations with crazy right wing not jobs of like buying into this whole monarch like type thinking of her he said he says good things about curtis urban in that very article by the way, in that full interview I don't know curtis irvan is for the overthrow of the U. S. Constitution vans quote irvin as is like favorite philosophers and thinker he has said things that sound deeply s that are deeply dishes like that and he is currently on the vice presidential ticket of a man who is clearly losing a fucking mind is clearly like um likely to get thrown out of office through art of through uh the twenty fifth men or in peach men or he's going to die in office from old age because as the age is quite advances he's eighty or eighty years old now okay yeah like this is this this this this is this is like I said in my piece, uh and maybe that's a good place to end. This is fucking serious.

Well, listen, despite everything you said, if is entirely true, my expectation is anyone who's decided to over trump won't give a fuck. Anyone whose vote of cella will give a fuck and vice first or something.

Surprisingly, a lot more of undecided voters this time that people are giving great for. And I think I think that we will say, but I think I think we could be surprised.

I guarantee the comments in this is going to be a fucking shit.

I'm you know if anytime.

anywhere I know only wants .

to come after me.

you reply to one of them mike is very interesting conversation um I bring on bring on the box that that's onna come to. This, I think is really born to talk about these things.

At least this was good. I like that I got. I like that. I like that I was that was good.

But but it's really good to get into the details is because I think so many people out there are selling their souls because winning is more important than the outcome. Winning the their team, winning is politics of power. Politics power.

I think that's where we are. Glad you framed IT for me. Announce was going on. I appreciate you. I'm going to go to listen and j.

Evans on the way back to my hotel and and then get the fuck out america, because I got to go home. My broke. Thank very much. I come to see you. Thank you to everyone for listening.