Episode 602: The Strange Death of Cindy James (Part 2)
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Hey, weirdoes, emilia. I H, this is more good.

This is what about more than bridge? And let's make keys, big bird.

Okay, that was just .

like why we're .

filled some type away things are Lucy .

goosey today were at my house so Lucy is the goest couldn't come up with a response quality. I just me blackly .

and I was like up SHE gone. It's early.

My coffee hasn't ah I tried to go go this morning. I couldn't IT was a whole thing got halfway there. I fuck and realized that I was a good yeah what's up dog?

What's up dog? You're almost riding a book eye. I am almost riding a book. Eye is so close by the time this comes out.

I think I will be like two days ago that I came out in the future. This is awesome. I'm so excited for you now and in the future.

I'm so excited. I'm excited for you guys to read the butcher game and and people have been grabbing the butcher in the ren yeah recently. A lot like to start the series, which is you .

do you guys if you didn't read the butcher in the run, I would read that before you read the butcher game yeah, sir because .

it's like on a logical yeah a lot of back story. A lot of a lot of shockers, yes but the butcher game is longer SHE SHE picker SHE I think she's more brutal personally SHE .

one hundred person is there's no job of my .

life doubt there. But yeah, you can still go .

go get selling like a bus said you won't be .

disappointed. I think I hope my brain.

you know, I love, I like that Better than buttering the end. And I loved butcher in the yeah, I also have seen people who got the arc copies reviewing IT. And i've seen like so many great review.

everybody who's review that has been .

so sweet and so kind. Girl SHE posted a picture.

We should out the talkers and like books to grammer, like with me, the pretty like display es of a book. Yes, no. They have a way of making me want to ad any book and expect it's like they always make a look.

Gorge this one creator on instagram, Michelle reads .

through.

I was way that you set the book up here to take the picture.

okay? It's beautiful. They're like, there there are amazing that way.

Yeah, I was gorge. I I was impressed. I loved. I can barely take a good male picture in .

my fucking car. I can't take any good photos of things. I said IT can't here.

And my, I have so many cats, all the cats.

and I love them. I also love those cats. Yeah Franklin and I have been best friends, so ah we ve always been best friends, but I feel like we really a little to fight our relationship the other day crowd on my lap and he soon gold them to me and I almost passed away because I like cats.

Like, I like cats just fine. You're an animal person. I just love animals.

yeah. But like cats were never my favorite. And like, I just wasn't my thing for a long time. But I like you for a and I was like, orbit, it's these cats are cold, that's the thing.

I feel cats like like morning to their owner and I to personally think that i'm like we could cool yeah so my cats are like we could cool or is IT still in there?

Well, i'm glad you got that cat. Hi, hello. Well, i'm glad you got that cat hair going, say cat. And then I so I just went, hi.

it's still in there. But you know, by the end of the same, sure, I will make IT out. I don't .

see anything in there. Yeah, I wonder if you got glitter in there because is a little bit glittery. Did you get the high letter? And you right? A highlevel, right. Let's go into this is go. We ve got part two of the strange, very mysterious death of Cindy gee.

Very strange case so far.

Super strange. It's only going to get stranger, to be honest. Boy, yeah. And the end apart. One detective value Smith got involved in in this case, which was really starting to ramp up.

He in the past had worked closely with pmc bride, who remember he was like the responding officer. Cindy started seeing him, detective valuer Smith worked closing with him, like I said, and trusted him. So he wanted to trust what Cindy was saying, of course.

But something in his got was telling him that there was just something was off about our story is something was missing. His gut just didn't feel right about IT. So on a hunch ended up asking her to take a polygraph c exam.

And unfortunately, the results did literally nothing to alleviate his suspicions. Once soever, her test showed signs of deception, but instead of confronting her with the results like right off the bat, he asked her if SHE be willing to submit to another exam. And again, the results indicated that he was being dishonest, being deceptive. So now he's convinced studdy .

color in a while that's like you know I I mean we always say in how my french court but like it's IT is interesting when somebody because you complete that it's I don't know it's like IT really goes both ways like I feeling polygraphs are so difficult to have any kind .

of stance on yeah cause I know that like if you like, if you're nervous that can show .

reception if you hook me up to a public right now, i'm gonna my anxiety levels gona be at a billion yeah just because of the nature of being hooked up to something that can determine your physiological .

response tion. So this would be like you're lying. You lying even if I was doing the truth. That's it's like when you go through tsa at the airport and know you .

don't have a weapon on you or like contraband of any kind. But every time I go through him, like, what if I ever gone and I and I don't like, I don't I know.

I know what I I put I gone that I don't have in my career.

Like, oh my god, what if I put a shady that I don't have in my god, success and it's so your brain i'll just make egle like all .

but I like that makes sense that you do that I think. Did I pack a full size product that they are going to throw out? literally. I worried.

I bought. I bought like a full bombs with me just like.

did I bring that new hair but then I got and I they're gonna get rid of IT and i'm going to be said.

yeah, see that and IT happens all that. I like your brain can trick you in the same way. So I going to polygram exam. You hook me up to that shit. I'm going to be like, have I lied about everything that i've ever know?

Like I feel like, is anything real? Is my name iva? They feel your name and i'd like, I honestly don't know and my mom says, I can't be sure who SHE did say I don't .

know what I was there, but I don't .

remember that well, Cindy, about bio Smith s detective bike smith, confront Cindy with .

the results because, of course, IT means something that of that. But like IT is interesting when you have other suspicion.

especially having too deceptive deceptive yeah test in the role you know that makes sense. So he confronts her with the results and SHE immediately burst in the tears, which honestly, I pray, wanted on the same but also that doesn't make you look very suspicious but also, yeah, but also, I like at the grocery store of the wind, but is the wrong way. And just being confronted with that would be horny.

Oh yeah, no, I can handle that. SHE couldn't either. no. And according to her, the reason why the result showed deception was because, contrary to what he actually said in her statement about the attack that happened in the garage, how he was attacked by, like multiple, yeah, and I got really violent, SHE said. SHE actually did know the identity of one of these men who had attacker, but he was terrified that if he named him, he would return to harm her family.

Okay, this is where I say, well, now that's suspicious because yeah, you are you have now compounded what could be interpreted as a lie, yeah, on top of deceptive results of a polygraph c exam to cover the deceptive results.

yeah. And it's just like, I don't.

it's just straw. Because, again, I can understand that you, if SHE scared that this person will hurt her family, or hurt her if SHE named them. That is a reality. Of course we will go through in this kind of situation happens, but it's also like, but like this has been a big part of your life, right? And if you know the name of one of the people we might be able to end this could stop rate.

So why I wouldn't you just say IT, right? And also the police would be much more likely to be able to protect you if they know who they're protecting you from. exactly. So it's like I to my initial feeling about that. If I was that investigations would be that kind of seems like you you're trying to fix deception with more than .

you're yank in my chain yeah is what he thought yeah and I but you can see both I see both sides of this because I I see her not wanting to for sure to say anything because you so scared and I see being on the detective side of things being like.

what the fuck that we can, what you want to do, know if you know who that is, we can protect you from that person. Like, right? We can protect you from an unknown human.

exactly. So the results of the polygraph exam were certainly unusual. And yes, her response was certainly unusual. And bower Smith wasn't ready yet to rule out the possibility that he was lying.

But he also had to admit that I was hard to believe somebody would keep up such an aggressive and pretty extreme charade for for sure. Attention like he didn't. He felt like he was lying.

But also he was like, why would he lie about this just for attention and keep you going for so long? And because and rap that up, you know, and Cindy hadn't been alone in her claims. And that was the other thing.

Pat nic bride was convinced that he was telling the truth. And actually he himself even answered some of the phone calls that we're coming in, like the weird of seen ones. But in the cases, pp pecked up the phone, the color would like heavy, breathe and then hang up.

He had never heard the voice and lesson to the answering machine. Now, despite the chaos and stress of the Young harassment, the other aspects of Cindy's life actually seemed to be going pretty well, relatively well. SHE was, well, like he was successful network actually got several promotions between seventy five and eighty three the years, not that many promotions.

That's a lot of fogden promotions. But after the attack in the garage, SHE did file a workers can't claim so that he could take time off to recover yeah and when he was ready to turn return, her employer was really happy to have her back, but they requested that he attend to a counselling session with a psychiatrist. That way they could clear her to return to a high pressure environment.

She's a member. yeah. He is healthy and he is health that makes perfect time. So the request to consult with a psychic, a rist, was immediately rejected by Cindy. Unfortunately, at that point, he had nothing but negative experiences with mental health profession.

Yes, I mean.

that is true. And also remember, the time period to health is still, to this day, stigmatized. It's a lot Better back the back then, seeking help. Paramenters health was seen as a weekend night. Yes, like that's how I was a and SHE was worried that he would be, quote, stigmatized as unbaLanced if he went to see a psychic .

st because that could have something with the case too it's like could make her seem like she's admitting.

yeah, that may be some of this is in her head yeah and that's the thing and you let me perfectly to my next point because also multiple officers with vancouver police already thought he was making everything yeah so he said, well, if I go see as a hia dress, i'm probably only event dating that exactly where you I eventually, he did reach a compromise with her boss. And he agreed to see a doctor, alex conly, who was one of the psychiatrists associated with the clinic that he worked for.

even that .

a conflict .

test using.

it's a conflict of interest. Now you just sit back and you .

can have her see someone who works at the clinic SHE works for.

Yeah.

you should just going to go to an outside place. You'd think that's bonkers.

IT only gets bunkers on doctor on the south india total of six times before clearing her to return to work which six times I think it's pretty valid um but years later his consultation would be seen by pretty much everybody as saw just up like pat mic bride alex conally seemed pretty taken with Cindy any didn't have any reservations when I came to believing even the most suspicious aspects .

of her oh my goodness.

these man he he's just think she's really pretty if you look up a picture of her, he is he was beautiful. But also, you are a .

process supposed to be unbiased exactly.

Now the other thing was he only saw Cindy outside of his Normal working hours. He hardly ever built for his services. Oh, and this is my favorite part.

He kept literally virtual zero written record or notes of their meetings. nothing. No record of their sessions.

huh? no. I don't know how many of yola and therapy, but they do be scratching down some notes. Smile talk. E I .

would imagine what of this company nearly?

yeah. This was highly unusual, given the entire reason he was seeing him in the first place was so that he could be evaluated for that workers, and which is like, you need some, you need record, you need received baby. So all signs pretty much pointed to an inappropriate level of familiarity between doctor and patient.

Now that was that the threatening notes continued to arrive for Cindy at home in network ghz, the fall and into the summer. But by the fall, things took another alarming term and i'm just going na give a trigger warning here like up front for the rest of the storage because otherwise I have to be like to point five seconds like i'm buying IT one. So right here, blanking IT for the rest of the there is mention of animal cruelty, and there is a lot of mention, especially through the end of like suicide and suicidal ideation. So if that something that you're not down to here will be in them exactly. So on october fifteen and one year to the day after the harassment began sending found a dead cat in her garden with a rope tied around its a note next to the cat red your next.

That's terrifying.

Uhh, by that point, he also had already moved two times and had changed her phone number, but her stockers seem to have no trouble finding her each time.

which is shocking, especially back then. IT would take a lot. I keep finding .

someone will find out later how if if there was a stocker and i'm not saying there wasn't. I'm saying like i'm very much in middle of this case I don't know SHE I was mentally ill. I don't know if there was a stalker yeah I don't know. But we will find out that if there was a stocker IT might not have been that difficult for them to get information or choose a little free with information.

Oh, he was given stuff out.

Yeah, exactly. But a few weeks after the discovery of the cat, he returned home to find her garden completely destroyed. Plants were ripped from the ground toaster on the yard.

That is a rack.

H that's just cruel. Yeah, that is mean, mean, in the increased frequency aggression. LED mic bride to encourage sd taxi hire a professional body guard.

A good idea. Yeah, not a bad idea at all. So he took the advice and started working with oz cabin. He was a private detective, and he was actually a friend of detective about your smith, who had extensive experience providing security services to just private clients.

Now hiring cabin obviously made her feel a little bit safer in her home, but IT really didn't do anything to stop the harassment. And that's why IT is. And remember, obviously he's not like twenty four. So in late november, just a few weeks after hiring this new security guard, Cindy found another dead cat in her god who is killing cats. I can't even talk about ruins me.

In the weeks that followed, the calls in letter started increasing in frequency, and somebody started vandal's zing the house, smashing basement windows, cutting her full line, serious fucking scary fuck, each time he reported harassment, and each time a detective was sent out to the house to investigate. But neither vancouver pd or aussie in ever found any evidence that anyone other than Cindy had been at the house. Oh, just none what so ever.

Wow, which is weird. Yeah like if there is somebody they're really fucked in good at covering their so a few months later, on january thirty five thousand nine hundred eighty four, Cindy was actually attacked in her home for a second time, around six P. M.

SHE called cabin to tell him that sh'd been hearing things outside the house. And he actually thought somebody was trying to break in. Well, that's terrifying. So he rushed over to the house.

And when he looked through the front window, he saw her lying on the kitchen floor, and IT appeared that there was a knife sticking out of her head, her head, her head, H A D head. Holy shit. So he kicked in the door with such force that had actually ripped the entire frame away from the, from the wall.

All the he like that a means that you won the door. Hopefully he knows how to replace. So he rushed into the kitchen where Cindy is just laying on the floor like unconscious, my god.

And he expected, define the attacker, probably still the house, because he rushed call. But there was nobody inside the house other than CD. And the house was completely silent, completely still just.

But he stabbed in the head.

Well, IT turns out that Cindy had actually known and stabbed in the hand. SHE was stabbed in the hand that angle.

which he was looking like made at .

hand up something, but according this is still boodle. According to the police report, there was a parent knife stuck in to her hand, almost to the palm. So i'm assuming IT went like the knife went to the front of her hand, and IT was penning a note like, like the knife was stuck to a note, then stuck into her hand. And the note said, now you must die. count.

Yeah, yeah.

And I was written in cut and paste magazine letter like the classic lego and know yeah.

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When the paramedics arrived, IT was determined that actually her injury was not very serious, which unlike they must have gone like there are so many fuck intendants in your hand but also she's in health care and I just .

wanted point that out yeah .

just but he wasn't very serious in the head injury that he suffered from a supposed blood and the head was also not serious. And the nyon stocking that was tight onto neck also did no lasting damage. But this is the second time that there's .

a rope tied around really stocking.

And remember, unfortunately, like the cat there was there was a rope around you too so that a that keeps happening. okay. But later at the hospital, doctors would find a needle mark on her ARM, which LED them to believe that he had been injected with an unknown substance. They can determine what I was, but he had no recollection .

of being injected when here's my my question ah there's a note that is now you must die ones. Why didn't they kill her? Cause IT sounds like they didn't really make a effort to ah because the head injury is not they didn't even serious. They didn't even know if .

there really was a head injury. SHE said that he been struck over the head and that he passed out. So they're think OK like SHE must have been hit. But there IT was almost like IT was a case we talked to out a few weeks ago where somebody said theyve been hit over the head and like they were only unconscious for a certain on a time and the doctors .

were like you would have unconscious much yeah and and it's like that sounds like there was really no damn like I was an even a serious injury but like they had up if they were in her house and she's alone and they had a knife and a stocking with them, yeah why didn't they just do IT? I mean.

I guess you could say that like maybe they heard that i'm splaying doubles advocate here. Maybe they heard in coming and but it's exactly that sounds like he didn't see anybody. Everything was silent.

Everything was quiet. I mean, I don't I don't know. It's it's hard to explain.

It's just so that i'm not saying this isn't somebody doing this later no tormentor, but it's just like, wow, you're really like you you had you had the chance to do IT right?

Do IT in this person is like playing with fire yeah, she's reporting this to the police.

Have the dice here. And if you're .

stocking here, then they know that know seeing the test present at the .

house like I I mean, this is shocking.

Yeah, I really now like the other reports of assault and harassment and the scene t sdi house appeared to be absent of any evidence of an intruder whatsoever.

And that's the part that, like what is going on.

on the kitchen floor where she'd been laying, there were circular smears of blood that investigators found highly unusual, like somebody tried to clean the floor. Constable KO eco, I hope I said IT appeared somebody had wiped IT and he said in his ten years as an investigator, he had, quote, never come across the crime scene where in salian attempted to clean up the blood.

I mean, i've seen that in plenty of cases where somebody tried to clean up the ball.

Thank you because I recovered cases where that happened before .

on his ten years. But in our six years doing this, i've seen countless cases where people have .

tried to the loom seen. But I will say usually that's when the person that they have attacked is dead or when .

they think that they're did yes exam, at least in IT. To me, IT doesn't seem like there was anything done to Cindy here that where they would think they think he was did agreed. yeah. But again, I who knows but that i'm like, no people clean up battle. Yeah, do IT badly.

It's literally White liminal testing.

Yeah, exactly.

But according to Cindy, sh'd been in her kitchen when he, when he saw who SHE thought was her neighbor, come through the back and up her back stairs Carrying something in his hand. But by the time he realized that wasn't her neighbor, the man hit her over the head.

SHE said he lost consciousness, which would be a severe head injury, consciousness from a head injury.

And this is a serious one, right? exactly. And I mean, they also said that he may have been injected with some things I don't know that made her lose consciousness, but they also couldn't determine what IT was that you've been injected with.

So it's kind of hard to say. interesting. But given the suspicion with which her other reports have been met, investigators asked her actually to take another polygraph c exam. What if SHE is going through this, and he does have the stocker, who's attacking her again and again.

going to the part of that is in, says, if this is really what's happening, holy shit.

But then you can see on the other side of things why they want her to become like we're trying to help you here, but there's no fucking .

evidence and there's a lot of evidence pointing .

to to you unfortunate.

And so it's like you can't ignore that you but you can just be like OK yeah totally did that. We don't know who he is.

Well, this one is weird, because so SHE SHE consented to the polygraph test, and at first her result showed that he was telling the truth OK, but I don't know if it's polygraph, polygraph, polygraph giver, no polygraph. Man, woman, I like polygraph, but polygraph sounds fun. Is like polygraph exactly you know I well, this this polygraph er, sergeant cohosh d he reviewed the results of second time several months later for some reason, and he could decided .

they were inconclusive. Maybe they were looking at IT later as the .

case progressed probably.

But I it's like .

to decide was in the moment .

yeah that's .

what makes people not believe in polygraphs.

I feel because like you can just form them to fit your narrative yeah like that's that's literally you're just fitting and the narrative right that might have started spinning later because I was like.

no, she's good. SHE passed this one and then I don't know that was after SHE passed away that they're like SHE actually didn't pass. He was I don't know about that no yeah but in addition to the polygraph exam, hood interviewed Cindy for about forty five minutes.

And during that interview, he told him that there had been to periods of violence during her marriage to void, make peace, and that her ex has been, quote, this is wild, often talked about killing people with a crossbow. Oh, which I was like, I thought you weren't afraid of roy what like because he was SHE told people all the time that like like investigators were like, could this possibly be your excess? And also the stocking and everything started within a week of her leaving.

And I don't think he did anything I say right at the top, but you're saying you don't think of him and then you're telling them also that like their period violent and that he talked about killing people that cross. Well, you come on and then we get even further later which year jos gto begin the floor. But am, it's like, hello but again, so SHE SHE tells the detective this, but are the the polygraph but then he continues to insist that roy couldn't be the attack.

So it's, I OK the mire even sank less the map at math now. But the attack in the kitchen was followed by several more reported incidents of harassment and violence. Of course, in july one hundred and eighty four, Cindy claimed that while he was out walking her dog, SHE was, quote, abducted and injected with drugs by two people in a van asking for directions. But after the report, aussie came been arranged for a help notice session, and during that session, in this is where your jaws just going to hit the fuck and floor, Cindy claimed SHE quote saw her ex has been chopping up the bodies of a man and woman within acts at a log cabin some were in the goal violence while they were on vacation other than that, he couldn't provide any .

details what shopping up .

the bodies of a man and a woman without A D cain in the gold islands while wasted on vacation?

My mi, this is escalating.

Would you like .

why why with a what did that come from?

Nobody knows. There's no there's no evidence that this ever happened, but IT is a story that SHE that undertake nosis and yeah, so it's like SHE believes did your brain come out with? I mean, that seems like he believes that. I mean, also, I think there are ways that you can seem like a under no yeah .

the thing that I was wondering but holy shit.

and that that comes up again later and you're just like IT doesn't come up and up in a way where you can really .

like that but terrifying tail to spin and also the like abduction, where do you go? They just abducted you yeah and then that was IT yeah and .

also he was able to get away. I know I don't know.

maybe i'm wrong here, but I don't think people are just injecting people with drugs willingly.

I don't IT maybe like if they are being held captive, like I think we've .

seen that happen. Yeah but I like just like in .

an attack and yeah then .

just leaving them like like I don't I feel like that's a rare occurrence. Is someone like it's like because IT reminds me like dexter yeah, people use IT as like a submission thing yeah like in the middle of an attack that is rare. I think yeah, if we looked really hard into the research of that, i'm sure. And this is already happened, possibly three different times yeah maybe even more, but in three .

different occasions like that.

And also it's like, okay.

so what have and it's like unknown substances too. And I mean, we're getting to the point really things are more advanced in this time and like they would have been able to identify what sub most things, I would think this bananas that only gets more bani and as well. I don't know .

why anas there .

the so a year later, in july one thousand nine hundred eighty five, Cindy made more claims of abuse and violence against roy, and this time investigators actually convinced to agree to a wiretap in order to try to get him to festive something because they are key is he a murder when you be like.

what the fuck is going on here?

But rather than capture any kind of confession, the recorded conversation actually depicted roy make piece as a very concerned and at the same time very frustrated partner or x partner. All in the tip, he can be heard saying, i'm certainly prepared to listen to anything because i'm very, very, very curious about what the hell has been going on. But IT affected me badly in a damn near cost me my job.

Yeah I mean.

so I think he's saying like yeah I I wanted hear what's going on because I care about you but also what the fuck is going on because you're putting the impecunious situations here.

You seem like shop our bodies now.

seriously now. Eventually, Cindy tried to illicit some kind of incriminating information. SHE told him he couldn't understand what he had been doing to her, and his response was just straight up the older man. He said, incredibly, what i've been doing to you for the last couple years like being .

like ah and then he laid .

out all the ways where Cindy is ongoing harassment and claims negatively affected his life and she's like, i'm not doing anything to you. What the fuck are you doing to me?

But just like why would he be lying? Obviously i've seen like the caption, like it's harder to understand what how someone would lie in a private setting. Yes, there lying .

about and to fame that much like man. So ultimately in the call produce their own confession or really any indication of rain cries involvement. Just one month later, Cindy called police to report that somebody had actually broken into her basement this time and set her bathroom on fire.

What the fuck?

However, when detective gary Foster searched outside of the house, he determined that, quote, James was responsible because the cobwebs and dust were undisturbed on the window cells outside, or so nobody gotten into the basement. In April one hundred eighty six, SHE again reported that somebody broke into the basement inside yet another fire. But as in all the other reports, investigators found no evidence of a broken and concluded that he had to have set the fire herself.

Why SHE doing this?

Now you could say that this, I mean, this one, these two incidents with the fire, I believe that he may have. Yeah, i'm not saying that means that none of the other things happened like in the beginnings. Yeah, I maybe they did.

Maybe they didn't. These these two sets of things, I think he did. And I don't know if I was maybe because things SHE felling, things were ramping down and SHE, for some reason, wanted to ramp them back up again.

or or maybe just capture the attention of the investigators to like to make .

something happen, like in the case did.

to make them feel like I was more urgent.

Yeah, maybe, maybe, or maybe this whole thing was, yeah, something SHE thought was happening, and maybe he was disassociated that this .

is tragic matter what way IT goes and it's so well, that's moral because it's like if this is in her head and this is something she's doing, that he is very mentally ill because and this is that and he's still living yeah in a place where SHE happening, her fear seemed real and her panic seemed real.

So it's like she's living in a horrible panic and do state of her own making without her even realizing IT right? Or she's being tornante by a person or unknown people. Unknown is believing .

her right either way, like blocking nightmare.

This is awful. Yeah, no matter what, all is a combination of both, which is somehow even worse. Yeah, there is no Better outcome here.

This is all awful. And cheese, I don't. This is no kind of life.

No, it's really not. It's really not well. And honestly, IT seems like the police agreed that, like, this was awful and they felt bad for her. According to the press quote, police wanted to charge James, but didn't because they felt he was suicide dal. And that feeling was correct.

A few days later, Cindy was actually admitted to the psychiatric ward of saul's hospital, where SHE was evaluated, and eventually transferred to river view hospital, which was another black mental hospital for impatient treatment. And that was after her brother dug signed a petition to have her committed. So even family was wonder, like, is something going on here and they felt he needed help anyway. Does so throughout her hospitalization, the doctor is a river view consulted regularly with cindi theridion, quote.

doctor alex and guy.

who said that he had been training her since the first attack in her home. And he believed that he was, quote, this kind of comes out anorexics and suicide. Dal, oh, which I was like, OK helpful.

yeah. But he attributed cd's anxiety and depression to investigators failure to catch stocker. But as authority mall group points out, he did not tell them that the police were of the firm opinion he was staging these events which .

what the fucking are doing, not giving them the full picture .

and they need like even if you disagree with that, you can say like I don't personally agree, but the police don't think this is actually yeah you have to .

give the full picture because that's going inform how they approach .

the yeah how they treat her like yeah and information so while he was at river view, SHE was assessed by the hospital staff at various points, including her initial assessment, which was performed by doctor wasey freeing, and among other things, he described her as, quote, history onic suicidal and requiring close observation because of her impulsive behavior. Wow, now is in, this is like from the like from research.

Yeah, somebody whose diagnosed as history onic does sometimes like repeat behaviors for attention. Yeah, so this he was of the mind, like in this moment that seems like he was of the mind that this may have been her. Yeah, these things. yeah. At the time of her admission, SHE was diagnosed with the paranoid disorder and major effective disorder with psychotic symptoms that caused her to become, quote, increasingly hybrid gin and knows herself that SHE is misinterpreted events because of this agitated state.

See that that makes sense to me yeah.

Now, regardless of comes by his reporting, doctor freezing quickly became suspicious of cinders frequent reports of harassment and attacks. But he also acknowledged at the same time that IT was difficult to get an accurate history from Cindy because of her agent and her resistance to being treated.

Yes, it's a total double age sod under every front IT is.

But before SHE was discharged from ubs's, SHE would be evaluated again, this time by doctor soon mochi, who described her as, quote, negatives tic in conforming with unpredictable moods, pessimism solinus, facilitating with social agreement and friendship. Ss, ow, in other words, basically, Cindy responded to a given individual depending on whether he saw them to be a friend or an adversary. Kind b didn't believe her.

no. A doctor. Choy was more direct than doctor for reason, noting that Cindy appeared to be caught in a psychological, psychological ing in this extreme behavior in order to escape feelings of being upset and feelings of instability. But these events never provided any lasting relief.

and that's why they continue SHE rams cycle. It's like you take medication and you need more and more yeah get so the feeling that you need to like.

yeah yeah IT is like an addiction. exactly. Doctor chao IT is a picture of a paranoid schizophrenic patient with high levels of anxiety and depression. The psychotic features are evident. Not really that IT is sad.

Now, although the harassing phone calls and letters did continue in in the years that followed her hospitalization at riverside, there was only one more report of an assault. And that was an october of one thousand nine. A, B, A.

And during this assault, SHE was, after that happened, SHE was found unconscious outside of her home. According to her report, SHE claim, ed, that she'd been assaulted, strangled, injected yet again with a drug. But once again, there was no physical evidence of this attack.

Yeah, it's just sad, really sad. Now, the next notable incident occurred on April eighth, one thousand nine hundred eighty nine, when a security guard at richmond general hospital, where Cindy was working, he discovered a note consisting of against cutting paste. I spoke.

Y, I fucked and hate IT. And he found this letter. And I said soon, Cindy, in those cuttings. Ys, letters, fuck. no. When he left work that afternoon, SHE reported in the same security guard that somebody had written, sleep well on the due in her windchill h, which is just chilling. yeah. SHE appeared obviously disturbed by the discoveries, but he didn't reply with the same level of alarm that SHE demonstrated in the past, I think.

which he could just be at this point.

Like you do. He has been living in she's like, great another one ah on may twenty fifth, one thousand nine hundred eighty nine, he went for some kind of cosmetics makeup ver in vancouver and then he went to richman general to pick up her paycheck. Friends and coworkers who saw her that day recalled her being upbeat and happier than she's been in years.

That was the last anybody saw of Cindy. The the very last time anybody saw her that day was when SHE deposited her paycheck at the bank. After that, SHE gotto her car drove off and disappeared.

wow.

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So on the evening of may two thousand nine hundred eighty nine, SHE actually had plans with her neighbors to play bridge. Her neighbors were toman, agnes woodcock and her on ten P. M. They still hadn't heard from her, so they knocked on her door, but nobody answered. This was strange because they saw her earlier that day, and also because her car was on the driveway.

They finally became really alarmed when they peered into her car, and they saw several bags of groceries on the passenger side seat and on the floor in, on the floor in the back, there was a sears bag from her shopping trip that afternoon. And they became even more concerned when they looked down at the driver side door and saw a couldn't quote, rust coloured smear on the handle that they thought looked a lot like dried blood. Old boy, so this is fucking yeah, spooky.

Not good. Now, after discovering the groceries in the car, they drove to the nearest department of the royal canadian mounted police. Who am going to call the R, C. M. P.

From this point forward, because dim, not a fuck wealth, but they reported to the rcmp what they found being pretty familiar with Cindy is frequent reports, the r cmp dispatch officer super house. And within a half hour of the entire scene had been corded off with police tape in crime scene. Technicians immediately got to work processing this entire scene.

They took swabs of the rust coloured substance on the door, which did ultimately turned out to be blood. And underneath the car they discovered in A T M merit showing that a deposit had been made in the cindi bank account in the amount of one thousand, one hundred and seventy three dollars. And that was at seven, fifty eight pm.

Inside the car, the, they found those forests ags of groceries from the local safeway. They found cd's purse, which was just sitting on the front seat. And inside her purse, they found two sets of keys to the house and to the car.

So the car keys were literally right there. They found two hundred and seventy seven dollars in cash and her checkbook, with every single check accounted for. wow.

Once the car was completely processed, IT was told to the police and pound yard, but I just looked like he pulled up to go inside, appear just like completely shed. Now, given that her person, her keys, were completely undisturbed, and investors ors were pretty much able to rule out robberies, the motive. They also contacted all the local cab companies to see if maybe he had opened in a cab and gone somewhere, just, yeah, take anything with her.

But none had been called. So that was strange. So they were like, okay, if he did leave, SHE had to have left with a friend or a possible of doctor.

Yeah, were wrong here. Maybe the only choice. This is really ramped up now.

Now, believing they were searching for a missing person, the R, C, M P contacted the canadian coastguard to conduct a search of the river while they handle the ground search inside her house. Nothing worked unusual. Nothing seemed out of place.

IT literally just looked like he pulled into the driver, and like we just had disappeared. And then there the next day, he's still hadn't been found. So the rcmp officer started making the notifications to friends and family and really started their formal investigation.

And of course, they started with the most likely suspect, her ex, where we make peace. f. Throughout the years of this repeated harassment and assault claims made by Cindy, his name was the only constant factor.

They know any other suspect whatsoever, and he wasn't even really a suspect. A, even if he wasn't always accused of anything specific, they still wanted to talk to him. And by that point, he was so used, he was like a system to being interviewed.

So he was pretty unbothered by the intrusion, he said. Since his divorced from Cindy, he had become increasingly drawn into her life of just constant drama, but he maintained he wasn't responsible for any habit. And in the cases where he was present, he was only there to make sure he was safe. Like when pat my bride, him in the car, a gun IT was just tip scare off an attacker if he saw .

on which again, I I don't believe he and anything to do with the silt like hearing everything but it's us but you can understand them checking and on IT because you're like about is what an attacker would say exactly. I was just there with guns because I wanted to protect her.

And this is literally the only place you have to go right now, so you might as well start there. And but he explained also to officers that he actually hadn't spoke in the Cindy since that wiretap phone call nearly four years earlier or um and more importantly, he was also able to account for his warehouse outs for the entire previous day IT would have been impossible for him to the object Cindy now during their interviews with roy, investigators noted he didn't seem suspicious at all, and they genuinely believed that he didn't have anything to do with this. Yeah, in fact, despite everything that he'd been through with Cindy.

like all of the horsing that he PPT up bodies, yeah, do that people .

cross pose exactly through all of that. He still believed that somebody had been harassing her and genuinely thought he was in real danger. wow.

He even told police that as recently as that fall, he had in the strange messages on his own answering machine, allowing to a previously arranged hit on Cindy, and he believed the mafia could have been involved. Okay, that comes out of nowhere. I was going to say about IT. IT doesn't go I don't think yeah I don't know about about this isn't saying IT doesn't ever sound like he like borough to turn of money or got caught up in that and .

like IT would be a very thing like why yeah.

he seemed like a real heady kind of guy yeah you know yeah it's .

to go weapon yeah .

but ultimately, he was rolled out as a suspect. Now, within a few days, the news of about cindi disappearance broke in all the local papers and journalists focused on what they described as, quote, dozens of complaints of harassment and threats. In fact, at that point, there was nearly one hundred in total, I believe IT, yeah.

In an interview with the reporters and d's, father auto said on the day of his daughters disappearance, that quote, Cindy called her friend and indicated, some people may think i'm paranoid, but I have a feeling I have been being followed all week, huh? Which is strange. He told reporters that was possible that Cindy may be lost her memory and just couldn't find her way home, but he admitted that was quite more likely.

SHE has been abducted and held against her will, or possibly even dead. He said. We have to hope he still alive, but I fear SHE will be in very poor shape when SHE is found.

It's strange that he was like, maybe SHE their memory and just couldn't find her way home. It's like, is that is that a Normal occurrence? Yeah, like, that wouldn't be my first thought that would missing. I wouldn't like go, maybe you just completely lost her memory and can't find her way home.

I do I thought I don't know if that was just because weird shit was happening all the time and in y's life .

will know something like do you have an idea that maybe there's some mental in this happening that yeah really opening up about right? But that's a pretty good indicator of IT.

That's kind of what I thought. Yeah and or maybe I mean, she's claiming in the past that she's been injected with things. Maybe they had phone conversation to her where .

he sounded bi yeah was telling them like i've been injected, i've been heard of her heads yeah, like she's got rama I mean.

they knew about the ideals that he was going through. So there's that yeah, it's strange. But on june eighth, just a few days after auto gave his interview, his fears were completely realised. When uni pal works, crew who is patching pavement discovered Sandy's body in the .

yard of an abandoned house.

What is sad ending to if IT is SHE was found about a mile from morshed last been seen at the A. T. M.

According to a neighbor who lived across the street from the house, an old man lived in a van behind that house, but otherwise that had been unoccupied for months. The neighbor said, god knows what else. Season there kind of indicating that IT was like a popular spot with like kids and yeah, the good stock.

Anything there? Red, well, nair, do well, party and kids, you know, yeah. Now her body was discovered in the bushes along the edge of the property. SHE was fully closed with her hands and feet tied behind her back with a black island stocking like .

he busied on the stocking.

Yes, stocking again, there were signs of advanced com indicating that she's been in the location for at least a few days. Her blouse was torn in certain places, but they said there was no other evidence of a struggle at the scene. I disagree her. They also said her closed seem to have been disturbed, but I like her blouse is torn. Yeah, I would call that disturbed persons.

But maybe they're thinking about maybe the way IT looks is like, IT doesn't really look like I was disturbed.

just just like ripped. Yeah yeah. I was just like a weird way of putting in, and there was no foreign material on her body, so that's a good thing. But despite the lack of evidence of a struggle, the pathologist noted that one of her fingers had scratched another, and this is quite down to the bone. Fuck, i'm like, how is that even possible?

Like one of her fingers had scratched the other .

one down to the bone. I like, is IT possible that SHE scratched like a lot?

And then because of d camp.

yeah maybe just .

set up the the bindings.

but I don't know because we've got there. But I let her to theorized that cindi had been alive when he was left in the otherwise there is no signs of violence, and at that point, no obvious .

cause of death. Ck.

the autopsy was performed later that day by doctor shala car while at the royal colombian hospital. And the first thing dr. 点点， dr.

点点， noticed was when SHE removed the binding, SHE said, quote, the ligature around one wrist was loose enough to be easily slipped off over the hand. I'll shut up. And none of the lines on the rest angles were tied enough to invent the skin.

What yeah that's very loose because immediately .

after thinking was like what you said was she's scratching to get the findings loose, but they were loose and they had to have been loose for quite some time because there was no inductions anywhere.

That's bizarre, right?

bizarre. In fact, there was no bruising or injury on any part of her skin, except for a small pinprick on the inner right ARM justice of the elbow. And that was determined to be consistent with an injection from a hypodermic needle.

Based on the insect activity, the pathologists believe that Cindy's body had been in a lot since probably at at least june second but IT was possible. She'd been there every cent SHE disappeared so earlier than june but initially the cause of death, uh was listed as as fixation. But when the toxicology report came back, a doctor, carl, change the cause of death two and over those of more theme, furzes pm and diaster pm, oh.

Based on the examination of the stomach content, doctor carl al concluded Cindy had adjusted the far azim and the diazepam, which are both sensitives in pill form. SHE was able to to determine that, but Cindy didn't have a prescription for either of those things. So that was strained.

That is weird. And then the morphine was also believed to have been adjusted orally in liquid form. And although IT was impossible to know for sure, doctor carl did their eyes that the most likely cause of death was the Flora zap min d system. And SHE suspected that Cindy had adjusted anywhere from twenty to eighty tablets of that holy shit.

Under those .

circumstances, SHE won't had about thirty minutes before losing consciousness, and that would have been quickly followed by coma and then death. So it's unclear just how would happened, but within a day of the body being identified as 3d。 James, the press started reporting the R, C, M, P. Officers were investigating the death as they could have elaborate suicide well, which, given how SHE had been found, was very hard swallow for the public because, of course, nobody believes that he could have possibly hugged.

tied herself but when you, with the bindings being so loose, yeah and I mean, the medical examiner said he could slip my hand out and they were so loose that they didn't leave in entails he's also a health care worker. And those were sentient ves. A, I mean, it's an apple thing to think about that like SHE took an enormous amount of setai ves to basically passed out, fall asleep and then died there over those where SHE couldn't move physical.

It's hard to believe that is a really is even when you lay IT out logically and say like, sure, absolutely you could have been because the the evidence leads you up to IT, right? It's hard to believe IT really is. I mean, well, there's no other .

case that i've heard of quite like this because then you .

think of the other side of IT where you like if someone forced medication down her throw to live maker, puts out overdose and left her bound and made IT.

did I lose some purpose because they knew he was .

gonna e anyway and SHE. But it's like, where did that finger thing come in? Or SHE was like scratching your finger down to a bone .

like that part. Is that the part that's hard to I don't know.

just I can't make a head or tales .

of and I can either, I can either. But either way, the reports of the suicide theory seemed completely preposterous to anybody who knew anything about cindi or over the previous decade. And even the work crew who have found her flatly rejected that idea.

One of the workers told a reporter, this definitely wasn't a suicide. You couldn't possibly put yourself in that position, which you, I can see why he would think that. I mean, I can imagine finding somebody like that, and then somebody doing like they did that to themselves. I think they didn't know why.

But when you think about the loose bindings, should you very much yes, the absence of an official story from the rcmp, the press took complete control of the narrative, and they shifted their attention to what they perceived as a complete failure on the part of law enforcement to protect Cindy. Despite the years and years of complaints that he was a filing, one friend told her reporter, the copy's never believed her. And in an op ed for the province vancouver reporter particia gram route, I feel discussed in anger, sadness and regret that we let sindy down so badly.

Cindy James tried everything possible to protect herself. SHE went to vancouver and rich manara rcmp repeatedly. SHE did her best, but he still lived in terror for eight years. Worse, SHE had delivered her personal hell, knowing that he was doubted, that he was suspected of inflicting this on herself, that her terror was not recognized or validated.

I mean, yeah that you get you bounce back and forth between how fucking terrible both sides of the coin are no matter what the outcome is or what the process and journey of the whole thing was, yes, an awful IT matter what he was living in a state of terror of either her own minds making or reality, and no matter what he was being debt at the entire time.

It's like we said, it's ribble. But while the press continued they're outpouring of synthes for Cindy and the considerable criticism of the rcmp investigators were learning a little bit more about Cindy's life in the week's leading up to her death, the medical examiners report strongly indicated that he could have staged the entire scene herself loose findings, those drugs could have been voluntarily adjusted in the pinprick on her ARM was believed to have been the result of Cindy actually withdrawing blood from herself to wipe IT on the driver side door. Wow, which is wild to think of anybody doing.

But IT is possible, especially when they're saying that the drugs in our system are just .

did not rejected, especially all that. Yes, exactly. Moreover, in their interview with doctor freezing, they learned that cindi had spoken frequently of suicide in recent sessions and SHE had been holding could and quite huge amounts of medication that he had been prescribing her in the months before her cheese.

Yes, in two months before her death, SHE had actually stopped taking her medication. And this is so sad. According to freezing, SHE stopped taking up because the mortgage rate was going to go up and SHE couldn't afford the prescription cost.

How fucked up is that?

It's worked up that that I mean, this was like twenty something years ago .

or and it's still happening and it's .

still happening. You choose to keep a roof over head or to take medicos. But the hacks, when they got to Cindy's house, actually flushed all the pills .

that they discovered there.

why? I'm not .

sure that's that's weird. That is weird. I don't know. strange? Behave, I don't know. I wanna speculate. I just yeah I mean, if people do strange things when they are grieving, people do things to make sure that somebody doesn't act. Look a in a certain way and thirty percent yes, so like, yes, but no, like you can't do that, especially when you think he was possibly being like, I don't know, you just don't get rid of anything I know, but I don't know. Again, people do do odd things when they are grieving.

That's something. But the medication was not the only discouraging discovery that they made when they searched her home, all going through Candy's belongings. A family member found a glass cutter, a kit containing a surrender I V equipment, a urinary catheter in salian solution, and then in one of her showing kids, they found an unopened .

needle and surge. Oh, no, yeah. I mean, that's concerning all of that.

It's strange. Last cutter, that's the thing that I was just going to say. He works in health cares and like, I guess you could have some of these things I don't know person like I mean, not on your person, but I don't know why there in your house but a glass cutter.

But I mean, what's more important to have access to these things?

exactly?

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But despite all the newly discovered evidence actually, and this was surprising to me, dr. Freezing still had a hard time believing that cindi had actually taken her own life. He told investigation. I saw her the week before SHE disappeared, and SHE was the best i've ever seen her, the most positive, the most optimistic i've ever seen her. I mean, that happened.

That's that's a that happens a lot. It's like it's it's horrible to think about and it's chilling to think about. But it's like sometimes this moment of clarity and peace that comes before something really tragic. Yes.

he said that he had renewed her interest in commitment to reporting the incidence of harassment that he was going through. He said he felt confident that everything was actually going to be resolved soon, which, and chilling thinking that that was a discussion that was had right before that. And given her her mood and her future orientation, he just couldn't except the theory that the R R C M P was putting for. He said Cindy would not kill herself unless IT was accidental. You know, if I was an accidental suicide, I could understand that.

I don't know. If so, you can really say that would definitive. No, I think someone said you can say they absolutely would not have done that. You can say i'm finding IT hard to believe that. Yes, he would have.

but i'm not in her brain. I think he cared about her on like a deep level and sing on an inappropriate yeah, you mean like just what about her well being? I think he really cared about and he was a shock yeah, this had happened. And I mean, he's her doctor who's treating her that that hurts that he didn't like i'm sure he felt like he didn't see the signs. Yeah, he wants to help and he felt like he didn't like he would have seen the science. So there's no way he could yeah but on july twelve, after more than a month of investigation, the R, C, M P reported that they were officially ruling out fatal play and that Cindy's death was going to be able to suicide, according to doctor or tony Marcus, who actually evaluated cindi several times and consulted with the investigators. Cindy James was a quote, and this is a quote, a border line personality who weaved a tremendous plot to be the center of attention.

That's a quote.

quote, quote, quote. I'm not saying that he said my dr. A quote. He also allowed for the possibility that he was telling the truth. But he said, based on his experiences with her, he is a doctor who's treating her and the object lack of evidence, he felt IT was just highly unlikely that he was telling the truth. Although the r cmp ordered a coroner's inquest to determine the circumstances of sina's death, the investigators official conclusion was a disappointment of, of course, auto hack told the reporters the R, C, M, P, explanation didn't satisfy me at all. There is a murder out .

there somewhere. And I can totally .

understand that.

Too mean that your father, no one is in who's even sure of this. I'm not.

you know. Initially, the inquest was scheduled for october twelve and eighty. Of course, IT got push vex several times and IT didn't begin until late february one thousand nine hundred and ninety.

And his opening reMarks corner jerold tilly told the jury that the inquest would cover the ninety reported incidents of harassment between eighty two and eighty nine so this is literally, what about six years, seven years of this um and they said there would be special attention paid to the circumstances obviously of Cindy's death and may have one thousand nine hundred eighty nine in this inquest was only scheduled to last for fifteen days keep in mind, the first witness to testify with Cindy's one time boyfriend, pat mic bride and he told the jury that SHE quote hinted to him that her former husband may have been responsible for a series of strange incidents involving classic phone calls, letters, various incidents of vandalism. He said, SHE LED me to believe that a certain person may be involved. Her husband, doctor roy make piece. He also explained that he had caught roy make piece lurking in the area around her house on more than one occasion, but he could also at the same time never establish any evidence that roy was responsible .

for this harassment. And it's like she's telling everyone else that he couldn't be the person. And yeah, she's telling padma bride is him what's going on .

yeah now that the bride's testimony established the onset of the incidence in who Cindy suspected may have been to blame.

But IT also highlighted the extent that law enforcement questioned these claims yeah, pretty much from the beginning, he was one of several witnesses who acknowledged that Cindy seemed throughly resistant to taking any steps to protect or remove herself from the situation, especially after, like I said, he started giving her unlisted phone number out to multiple people within weeks of having IT changed. Mcbride said the advice was coming from someone with a vested interest in making sure he was secure. I didn't like the idea. SHE was turning my ideas to not so he's saying, like I was telling her, don't do that.

you'll be giving out this information. You don't know .

who this person is and he still was his partner andy Richards also testified, telling the jury that he believed Cindy had used a set of pandemic bride's wire cutter to cut the phone line while he was living in the house. Yes, so SHE again, he had access to think that I have done that partner like another yeah.

Now although the R C M, P and other agencies were obviously prohibited from speaking publicly while the inquest was going on, IT didn't take a formal statement to figure out that there were several very valid reasons for believing that sydney could have been responded. Yeah for staging all of this. A lot of the investigators who testified noted that there was an almost near absolute lack of evidence to support these claims. And despite the countless hours of formal and informal surveilLance, I can never say surveilLance, and I always say surveilLance ance, but none of the investigators ever saw anybody suspicious on or near her property. That's that while and like like in part one years of constant .

surveilLance and years .

this person is .

just ghost yeah .

and like if you remember in part one, I said um that I think IT was like neighbors had seen a street from .

unknown man .

yeah like identified man in the igher or hood how many times have you've seen somebody you know recognized in your neighborhood yeah and then like who the focus that but it's just like that but it's just like sad s so it's like absolutely be something or what exactly but there was also the matter of the failed polygraph. Oh my god, I can't say polygraph and I can't say surveilLances see good very.

I always say, yes, I don't know what that's about, but there is the matter of the failed polygraph examinations when here we go again. Polygraph, polygraph, vick farmer testified. He told the jury that the results indicated that he was Cindy was lying or lying in part about the attack in january thousand nine hundred and eighty three.

And he said when he was confronted with these results, he responded by grabbing his arms and saying, vick, i'm sorry, i'm sorry, i'm sorry and he said when he finally, yeah he said when he finally collected herself, SHE changed various parts of her story, but then refused to take a third. Polygraph c exam surgeon childhood who administer tee, uh, polygraph c exam after the incident in one thousand and eighty four reported a similar outcome where he suspected Cindy of being received. Ful also included on the witnesses for a number of doctors in psychologists since syria rist who had treated seventy over the years, including doctor uh, doctor chased me, doctor Marcus, doctor freezing and doctor term son.

He was a psychiatrist from river view. And in his testimony, doctor thomson told the jury that Cindy was, quote, capable of intense attraction, an intense rage of rejection, and that could have caused, heard of a law out in strange interaction ways to try to garner sympathy and attention, while also getting back at whoever he felt like had wrong her, no matter how a rational that belief might be. Wow, like SHE might see that somebody wrong her, like in this suggestion example, like roy, wrong term.

Yeah, he did. He hit her. yeah. So SHE may have done something like this to get back at him and garner sympathy. Was this doctors? Okay, now, the R, C, M, P. And medical examiners case for suicide was a strong one, but the authorities were hardly unanimous ous in their opinion, among those who were not in favor of the suicide theory was doctor Joseph noon, a forensic psychiatrist, too, was higher to review send'st medical record. He heavily criticize several of the medical providers, including dark conly me, I am sure you can imagine why, but he called them ARM armchair psychiatrists, and he said they are meddling in cindi treatment had potentially compromised the case to the point that they might never find the truth.

I mean, some of them we're treating her though what's up? Some of them were treating her like in river view yeah but just like I don't know if they were meddlin, they were treating her I don't .

think he was like he wasn't criticising all of them. He was criticizing .

some of us because because I was like dark conney sure .

yeah exactly what i'm like.

I don't know like a place when SHE he was being treated in a place it's like, yeah that was .

treated and i'm in like doctor freezing seemed like a job doctor chair yeah seemed a little more intense than doctor reason just like was like dinner yeah exactly interesting. But while non clearly disagreed with several of Cindy supporters, IT didn't mean he agreed with authorities.

He said that her medical records actually read very clean, but he was an agreement with doctor frozen, believing that Cindy was likely being her asked by an unknown party. And that resulted in depression, anxiety and paranoia, not the other way around. Not that he was paranoid and therefore making this all in her head, and yeah, but he believed actually this, what's happening, and that's why he was feeling this OK.

Among Cindy is most vocal offenders was her private security guard, aussie cabin, who just really seems like a sweet heart, very out there, but he seems like a sweet heart. H, he's out there a little bit. What see? He told the jury he just couldn't believe that he had staged every incident of stalking and harassment, not only because he seemed super genuine, but also because of what he believed was strong.

Evidence that supported her claims are specifically with regard to the alleged a one thousand and eighty four kidnapping where SHE was abducted by those two people in the van and like, injected with something yeah. He told the jury that he investigated the area where he said everything went down, where he got a doctor, and he found that, quote, the ground was disturbed and they were dragon Marks. Okay, which is interesting.

Yeah, you can make that he's a private security guards. Some like IT doesn't have a lot of work. exactly. Now, after two weeks, the increase shifted its attention to Cindy's relationship. Of course, with her ex husband will make peace, like I think I SAT at the top of this.

The harassment began within weeks of her separation from what I and he'd been a regular feature in the reports from an early phase of the investigation in name, if not in prisons. While many witnesses steered clear of accusing him of any wrong doing, there was a strong inference that he was involved. In fact, the jury heard about that have no secession where he accused him of SHE accused him of dropping of bodies with an acts. Though the hima tiste acknowledge that IT was possible, SHE just believed the incident was real in her mind.

which is also scary.

Yeah, I was really, but also that sucks for him if I was just like a scenario that her mind really or not. Though her sister actually added credibility to that story when SHE testified that Cindy had also told her about this alleged murder in one thousand nine hundred eighty four, where roy allegedly used a hatchet to quote, cut off a limb and spread blood on cindi face, warning her, I could easily do this to you too.

I'm sorry what melani IT should .

be noted that this was the first time any number of enforcement had heard mellan hack story about this. And IT was completely fied. Yeah.

because where are where are you? What is going on like you're literally just bringing this up.

IT was just something that Cindy may have reiterated to SHE just you know said, you know, now is the time to share that.

Now is the time to share that. Now after she's like she's been going through all this harassment in starting and like attacks in everything and it's like you you got to told the police, yeah wow I mean, I think the .

hidden s told the police and they investigated.

but there was no evidence OK it's what aren't you say anything melon wild right now?

Surprisingly, roy never actually testified during the inquest, but his words did make them into the record in the form of that recorded phone call. yeah. The yeah. He also had a nearly six hour interview with police, which was also recorded. And that was after the attack in one thousand nine hundred and eighty four.

And in his interview with detective valuer smith, he could be heard expressing his fears that he actually believed Cindy was trying to frame him, and he was disappointed that he was suspected of all of this. He told the detective, firstly, I could not believe I was a suspect, let alone the only suspect. Everything I said was twisted. Now in the end, he actually received, I mean, like, no sympathy from the investigators, I mean, on their counts because, I mean, they thought he was strange, first of all, much that sounds like he was a strange character but also he had admitted to smuggle abuse yeah .

so so it's like going to know you lost IT for me that's the thing. But then at the same but that makes you sure yeah exactly .

but at the same time, they did see that he seemed done weighing ingy committed to protecting Candy, at least especially in the early years. We are. They got off contact. But regardless of how they felt about him personally, there was just no evidence connecting him to the crimes. And by the time Cindy recorded their phone call in one thousand and eighty five, IT was clear that he just wanted nothing to do with this anymore.

Now like I said, initially the corners requests were scheduled for fifteen days, but by the time IT concluded on mid twenty fifth, ninety ninety, IT dragged on for more than three months, and at this point became the most expensive inquest in canadian an's history. Down in the course of hearing testimony from over seventy five witnesses. In reviewing countless documents, the jurors were told two versions of events, one that strongly supported the belief that Cindy had taken her own life, and another, or the evidence, was a great deal more ambiguous, and at least gesture toward the possibility that, you know, maybe he was telling the truth about having a soccer and an attacker. Some of the testimony, like I said, aussie cabin is a little out there. Um he believed that Cindy was murdered in a setti ritual alliance tic sacrifice.

哦， come on out.

He lost me there.

He lost me. Mom, yeah. That was me. Waver in there. That lost me. yeah.

That testimony was given very little, creating really good other witnesses, including the various doctors who testified that he may have taken her life obviously that was taken very seriously but in the end the jury could not determine what had LED to the end of cindi jams as life and the official circumstances of her death was, uh, revised from suicide to undetermined. Wow, yeah. For the jury, the inquest was particularly stressful, jr.

Shirly glad said, I not only cried my self to sleep, but I cried in the court room. I image because they had to see tons of graphic photographs. I mean, they saw the position that he was in all these. We like crazy descriptions of violence a, and they also spent months listening to conflicting opinions and testimony that at time has became really.

really happy.

i'm sure. And then, you know, this woman died tragically either way. So they felt this task to figure out what happened when I was an emotional role costs.

It's such a sad life. yeah. Another jury said there were all shades of grey, no, black and White.

In the end, you felt you new. Cindy, your hard just ached for the girl. Yeah, when I came time to deliberate, they spent more than three hours just arguing with one another.

There was two juries in favor of suicide, and then there was three in favor of undetermined jury. Former land, Roger said IT boils done to nothing, nothing firm pointed to suicide. So many things were just speculation.

That's the thing. You can just it's a double sady coin here.

Yeah I I don't think I could have a ever made a decision. And in the end, they were right. There was no evidence to prove that Cindy had taken her life, and there was no evidence that he had been murdered. Just like the ninety reports of harassment in her past, the truth seemed to just elude everybody. But what we do know is that no matter what it's like, we've been saying this entire time, this was a fucking nightmare life.

Whether there was mental illness or .

stocking SHE was a victim yeah SHE was absolutely a victim of something whether to be mental illness or a drage fucking stocker that it's just I mean, it's possible like i'm not saying it's just so hard to imagine like this level of where planning, commitment.

commitment and an ability to just never be seen or detected in any physical way ever like there was never one thread of evidence left.

But that I mean, that happens you know like it's very few and far between, but that happens yeah but I think it's still an important story to tell because who know he could have been murdered and if he was, then this person completely got away with IT yeah .

because no matter what, he was a victim of something.

Hopefully I just want somebody to like find a box with all the documents and home through them and just find one thing that points to the .

actual so can point IT either way, just give them something because you feel about it's just ah it's an awful tragic tale no matter what we have been but I be step some answers i'm sure everybody .

who loved her goes back and forth all the time their own heads you know like what the fuck here neither outcome is a good one so it's like, no how awful IT is it's an awful case but a very, very interesting one in is i've never like this. I think I had an earlier i've never heard of a case quite like, no, it's very, very unique, very bizarre. If you know what, let us know. Because I found this fascinating, tragic.

but fascinated yeah, if you know if have another one like this so we would be interesting to legend. I also looked up the pronunciation .

for polygraph .

p poo graph P.

I mean, that could cause .

and I just feel wrong.

I think I just feels like what i'm reading. And I acclimated. Ally read, photographer instead of hotoke PH do.

But then this person is is a polygraph.

I guess you could say both. I like polygraph R, I like polygraph r that's fun. Ah well, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep IT. We were not aware that we ever find the difference between police graph r and polygraph.

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining wondering plus in the wondering APP or on apple podcasts, prime members can listen. Add free on amazon music before you go tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondering that com .

slash survey hot shot. Australian attorney nica gaba was born into legal royalty, especially representing some of the cd's most infamous gain land criminals. However, while nichola held the other world's darkest secrets, the most dangerous secret was her own.

She's going to all the major groups within melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on the mall. I'm march clar, host of the new podcast informant lawyer x. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defensive turney, i've seen some crazy cases, and this one belongs right at the top of the list.

SHE was addicted to the game he had created. SHE just didn't know how to stop now.

through dramatic interviews and access, all revealed the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to informing lawyer acx exclusively on wunder lus. Join wunder plus in the wunder APP apple podcast or spotify and listen to more exhibit sea troop prime shows early and add free right now.