Episode 547: Lizzie Borden and other Dark Nursery Rhymes (with Special Guests Sabrina & Corinne from Two Girls One Ghost)
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Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. I'm Elena. I'm Corinne. And I'm Sabrina. And this is Morbid. Morbid.

or wait more appropriate we're really good guys did you guys think spirits were among us i know that they are after yeah yes we we now know that spirits are very i'm i'm becoming more and more a true true believer at this point oh yeah like my skepticism is pretty much out the window

After our night at the Lizzie Borden house. Yeah. No way. So much happened. So much happened. So we recently, as a foursome, stayed. A fearsome foursome. A fearsome foursome.

Stayed at the Lizzie Borden bed and breakfast. Again. Again. And we actually had it all to ourselves, which was so much scarier. It was so much to ourselves that when we opened the door with the code, there was no one there to greet us. And we were like, where are the people that work here? We almost didn't ever ask. Yeah.

Five hours later, we texted and we're like, is someone here? And they were like, oh, shit, we forgot you guys were just in the house tonight. And honestly, we have the ghost to thank for that because we wouldn't have contacted them unless we wanted to go to the basement. Which they wanted us to go. Go to the fucking basement. Yeah, because we brought like we had a bunch of our own, you know, ghost hunting paranormal equipment. They give you some there if you want to do like a little ghost hunt. And we were getting scared.

so much shit over like we were getting EVPs we were getting stuff over the spirit box lights were dimming I don't think we even had 15 minutes of peace of chillness no never it was always on yeah happening and the feeling in that place is like nothing else it's it's you can't describe it but it's just like so dark it hits you right away my favorite is when the delivery guy was dropping off

dinner. Oh my God. I wish you all had seen his face. He was like, I don't want to be here. He was staring and I opened the door and I think he was even more stunned that I opened the door and he was like, why are you here?

you here? Didn't say anything. It's like the haunted house the door creaks open and it's you standing there. Are you here for me? Is that my DoorDash? He's like, I have a steak and cheese. You guys want this? Whole pork mac and cheese? We definitely brought snacks for the entire village. We sure did. They were offerings. They were. That's true. You know, when we got stressed out we could just walk through the dining room and grab a snack real quick to calm us down.

Never alone. Never alone. Never alone. Until that very end. Not even going to the bathroom alone. Yeah. Anytime someone had to go to the bathroom, it was like, everybody gather. It was a group trip. Also, like, the multiple times that I feel like we went to the bathroom, the REM pods did go off. That happened more than just once. Yeah. Yeah. That did happen. Which is like, are they trying to scare us or were they trying to bring us back into the room? Yeah, they're like, come back in here. What are you doing? Yeah. Or was it that we- That's just with our pants down. I don't know.

I don't know. Yeah. There's also that. Or was it just that like we left the room so they felt more comfortable like walking about freely? Expressing themselves. Yeah. You know. Yeah. They were like, oh, they're gone. Showing their true colors. Well, it's like when I fell asleep in the one room and you guys left me there. And then. We told you. We told you. We very gently. I was asleep. How did you tell me? I woke you up. Oh. What?

And I was like, you're in my line of sight because I sat at like the end so I could still see you. Yeah, I was like, come on. I mean, baby sat. But then I did get spooked enough that I got up and I went and joined you guys in the other room. And then it was not like 90 seconds later that the REM pod went off. Right next to the chair that I'd fallen asleep in. It started going off. Yeah.

The ghost did call us annoying a lot. They did. So much. Called us many things. And stupid. Yeah. Yeah. And slutty. Yeah. Let's be real. The spirit called us sluts. Over and over and over. It's like, okay, I get it. I feel like, damn. All right. Is this high school?

And just so you guys know, in case you don't know, like the REM pod is like this little box that has a bunch of little lights on it and a big antenna. And it's not a motion detector. Like it's not like you walk. Well, there are four lights that light up if there is motion. But it's like close motion, right? Yeah, very, very close. There must be a lot of penetration. It's not one of those. Your hand has to be right on top of it. I guess I am a fly. You're like, I'm flying.

I'm proving it right. But there's also that middle button that kept going off too was temperature fluctuation. So we were getting a lot of all of it where it was like it suddenly got colder in the room setting off one alarm on the REM pod and then all of the other four lights that would say how close something was like in proximity would start going off meaning something was like right on top of the box. It was wild. Like really wild the amount of things that happened in that house. I mean we were there for how long?

Like nine hours? I think it would take probably like 10 hours for people to understand the graph. Like actually for us to go through all of it. 100%. Because we had so much activity. It was astounding. I was actually astounded. We have a ton, a ton of recordings from it, like audio recordings, video recordings. And we're going to talk about a couple of them here, but we're going to do like an in-depth video.

look at them and we're going to hear the actual recordings on the two girls one ghost podcast so after you listen to this head on over there and go listen to the in-depth stuff because you're going to hear the audio stuff

We'll talk even further about like every room that we were in because, again, it's like 10 hours. It's so much. Just insanity. Yeah. Looking back at it, I was like, wow, all of that happened like in one night. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to even remember everything that happened because there was so much. No, it's true. The next day, Drew was like, so like what happened? I was like.

I don't know. That was like a ghost called us sluts. That's really the best I've heard for you. That was definitely a highlight. It kept happening. That's why it was the most memorable. He would follow us around a little bit. Apparently he was the trickster of the house. The guides told us that. Because we had a guide, Amber, who was phenomenal.

phenomenal she came later honestly shout out to amber who was in bed and the management company was like oh shit we forgot people were staying at the house and they were supposed to get a tour um will you go over to the house as if we hadn't already been investigating for like five hours on our own she came in and she was like oh shit i like you guys with all the equipment already ready glad that she came though because the

The basement. We were being led to the basement. Yes. And I think had we gone in there before, we wouldn't have understood that we were dealing with something that's a trickster spirit. And I'm worried that something scarier could have happened. Because we could have been like, oh, who is this? Because she was pretty quick to shoot.

that spirit down as soon as he was around. Yeah, she was great. Whereas we might have inquired more and asked more questions. Who are you? We would have been tricked. We were lured. We were being lured down there. Absolutely. It was definitely him. And they were super awesome after. They were super apologetic that somebody wasn't

it was a great experience but it was also hilarious scared because in the reservations remember walking up to the house when she was coming to give us the tour management called her and just said you need to go give a uh ghost tour yeah at the house and gave her no other information yeah and so she walked up and she like on on her side of like the tech that they use it didn't show that anyone had booked any room because we just booked the house so she was like

What the fuck? She was like, what am I walking into right now? Going to give a ghost tour to the ghosts. Are the ghosts summoning me tonight? And that was like 10.30, I think, that she showed up. It was late night. It was late. I can't imagine having to be on call for that. No, props to her, truly. Wakey, wakey. Head on down. Yeah. That'd be scary. We love Amber. Impromptu ghost hunt. Yeah.

team member for life but yeah team member but we should we learned a lot too like they give you a a cool little backstory of certain things and we got like a little more like insight into stuff like they make sure to tell you we've we've covered this case on the episode uh when was it it was 2018 yeah 2019 i think

Yeah? Yeah. Yeah. I think we did around that time too. Yeah. But we learned so much more. Yeah. Being there. Being there. Oh, absolutely. And with the guy. Oh, yeah. I feel like I know way more now than even when we presented the case. Oh, definitely. That's why like we'll probably dip back into it at some point because I have more theories now. Yeah. But we covered it. And again, like I feel like I learned more this time like just of things that like little nuances of the case that I didn't know before. Yeah.

And they make sure to tell you that Lizzie and Emma, her sister, are not in that house. No, there's no ghost in that house is Lizzie. And you don't feel like you don't feel like she is. No, but they say they hated that house. They didn't like living there when they were there because their dad, you know, Andrew Borden, who is one of the victims, was there.

He was like, he grew up kind of poor. Yeah, he made his own means. He made his own. And so like he was very frugal as an adult because that's what he knew. That's the only way he knew. I do love though that she said while their spirits aren't actively there, people will hear screams because they were sisters. Residual. And it's this residual like sisterly fighting. Yes. Mm-hmm.

That was so interesting. And I love that because I know those screams. Like, my sister and I were like that growing up. Yeah. Yeah. So you know exactly what they're hearing. Yeah. And their rooms are right next to each other. Right. Like, the way the house is set up is very, like, 1800s. It's like, you have to go into Lizzie's room to get to Emma's room. It's kind of a maze happening up there. It is wild that they had to, the parents would, like, lock that door between the two of them.

The two rooms. The two rooms because Lizzie would like steal things from the other room. Yeah, she was known to be like a little klepto. So I think they, yeah, they added a lock and sometimes they would put like a dresser in front of it. At one point, didn't they say like they nailed it shut? Yeah, they said they nailed it shut at one point. That's wild. Yeah, it is. They also locked their maid away each night. Remember? Oh, yeah. Oh, did they? I don't even remember hearing that. She told us that as we were going down from the attic, she showed where it locked on the outside. Yeah. Yeah.

Bridget Sullivan. I hate that. I don't think I heard that when we were there. Thank God there were no house fires or anything. I know. Seriously, that's dangerous. Which we'll talk about obviously on the Two Girls, One Ghost feed. We're going to talk about that room too because we were in Bridget Sullivan's room and I feel like hers was very active. We got...

roomless we have something from every single room like it might be we might need to look at a blueprint of the house i know and go room by room yes it's so true honestly but on this feed we decided because we were thinking about like you know i i can't say for certain what i think happened

I think that's what's really hard about the case. It's so hard. There is no answer. And there's no obvious answer either. And there's so many theories that it's hard to land on just one. And I know people are very definitive. A lot of people really think she did it and they are really convinced she did it. I totally get why. And then there are a lot of people who are 100% convinced she is innocent.

And I totally get why too. I can see 100% both of those places. I just can't land on either. I can't sit in either camp. Me either. I sit right in the middle. And we will never actually know. Yeah, I don't think we'll, like I'm one of those people like with the Jack the Ripper case. We were like five episodes into that. I was like almost 100 pages into like a dissertation.

about that case. You were driving yourself mad. I was becoming an actual ripperologist at that point. I still could, I'm like, I'm going to solve that case. Like, and this is the same as soon as I go into that house and start hearing about it again, I'm like, well, let's go. Here I am. I need to solve the Lizzie Borden case. Like, it's here. I was sitting here telling Ash about it and I'll get into it.

That I was like getting on the floor and like acting out certain things. She literally was. Because I was like, if you do it at this angle, it means somebody, the left-handed thing, and I don't know. Like I was, once I start, it's a problem. It was impressive too because you started theorizing and then you started looking at like the different things that have actually been like recorded throughout history and they were right. They were starting to match. They were lining up with your theories. And then I get really excited when I agree, when like old-timey detectives agree with me.

You're like, dang, dang, dang excited. I'm like, hell yeah, that guy. You totally were like an old timey detective in a past life. I feel like I was. 100%. I feel that in my bones. I feel that in my bones. You have that energy value. That's the best compliment ever. No, I think so too.

I love that. I feel – because I love these old-timey cases. I can't get enough to speak to you. And I guarantee – like, you're the – you were the type of person that it was like, oh, we need them on the case. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Call me in the middle of the night. You were the sought-after detective. Yes. You were for sure, like, smoking cigars. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. I can picture that right now. Yeah, black and white. With the hat and the trench coat. You had a monocle just because I want you to. Absolutely, I did. For no other reason than – Strictly for fashion. I want that. I didn't need it just for fashion. Just for the aesthetic. Yeah.

Now I want you to do a past life regression and see what cases you actually were on. Oh my God. We should all do one together. That'd be fun. Oh, we should. We've been trying to find someone to do it with. I would love to do that. It's kind of hard to find. We just have to find a person to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. We'll do that. We'll do everything.

We're already like, what's our next ghost hunt? Oh, yeah. Like this was only the beginning as far as we're concerned. Yeah, pretty much. And the four of us together, obviously our energies trigger something because you guys have, you had already been to the Lizzie Borden house and done an overnight tour.

And you had said that there wasn't nearly as much. No. Not at all. It was wild and heavy. We definitely had some stuff go on. We heard some things. You could see things out of the corner of your eye. Like, felt stuff. That happened a lot this time. But I thought a lot more this time. Yeah. But we didn't get as many, like, of the lights happening. I think it happened maybe, like, I can't fully remember. I feel like it might have happened, like, once or twice. Well, and it was also storming. It was storming. So it was hard to determine if the lights were maybe because of that or... But this time it was...

I was shocked. It was like the second we walked in with the lights. Yeah. Like the second we walked in. And it just kept happening. It was relentless, the activity in that place. This is our ghost hunting group now. I love this. This is fun. We have to only... Can we get jackets made? Yeah. We're going to get you ghost girl hats. Hell yes. And then, yes, we need to make jackets. We're getting jackets. Okay. It's official. It's happening. I'm so into this. Let's stop recording so we can...

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Okay, but we haven't told you what we're doing on this feed. We told you a lot about what we're doing on the Two Girls, One Ghost feed, but on this feed, do you want to? Well, we decided because like going back there, you start thinking about it. You start hearing the like actual stuff about the case. You

You start, you know, they have the autopsy photos there. They have the crime scene photos there. They are gnarly. They are. You can see them on the internet if you want to, but warning, they are graphic. They're really rough. Very upsetting. But you start hearing about that stuff, and then you think about how people are either in one of those camps, innocent or guilty. There's rarely any in-between or gray area. Except for all of us. People think that she did it.

are kind of being validated by that nursery rhyme that we all have heard once or twice. We used to jump rope to that when

Yeah, that's the thing. 100%. And we figured, we were like, wow, we're going to go into that nursery rhyme a little deeper and talk about how it is the most inaccurate thing you've ever heard. And also... In so many ways. In so many ways. From the jump. And just assuming her guilt, first of all, but all wrong. And we thought, wow, nursery rhymes do have weird origins. Some of them are scary. Some of them are dark. Some of them are political. A lot of them are just weird things.

And a lot of them are just like, yeah, some of them are just strange. They're like commentary. Yeah. Why not look back on a few nursery rhymes and see where they came from, starting with the Lizzie Borden rhyme? Yes. So Ash is going to do a little introduction. Yeah, I have a little intro that Dave helped me with. Shout out to Dave. A little fancy intro. Yeah. Okay. So as early as the 14th century, and honestly, probably even before that, adults and children have been making up and documenting songs and rhymes to share stories and

basically just try to explain the world around them. Commonly referred to as nursery rhymes, these simple folk tales serve a ton of purposes like entertainment, communication, social bonding, and they also encourage phonological awareness, which is a way that people actually learn and understand the sound and structure of words and phrases. That is cool.

However, like folklore and urban legend, nursery rhymes and children's songs are also a powerful means of conveying social norms, expectations, and shared morality.

According to Lisa Hazlett from the University of South Dakota, nursery rhymes are a form of quote unquote hidden literacies. Their verses were powerful, subversive opinions of political, social or religious commentary regarding then contemporary events. So essentially she's saying that just like slang or other types of culturally specific vernacular, nursery rhymes are a way for

a lot of times those in lower social or economic positions to criticize or talk back to their oppressors without being directly confrontational or putting themselves at risk. Which when you think about the Lizzie Borden rhyme, it's like you're kind of mocking her, but it's a nursery rhyme. So, you know, now like all different urban legends and folklore, they also tend to be regionally specific and address themes, ideas, or issues related to the place where they get created in the first place. Yeah.

So getting topical here, the Lizzie Borden took an ax rhyme, it's an upbeat eight lines children's rhyme that very loosely, like we were just saying, conveys the story of Lizzie Borden. And even though she ended up being found not guilty, most people in and around Fall River, Massachusetts at the time specifically, believed that Lizzie was most definitely responsible, but had gotten away with the murder. So she was completely ostracized by almost everybody in town.

and local kids would gather outside of the house that she moved to after the murders, Maplecroft. That was the one up on the hill, right? Up on the hill. We actually drove by it when we left. Oh, did you? Yeah. It's beautiful. It is. But kids would literally stand outside that house chanting that rhyme at her. It's kind of like impractical magic when all the kids bully. Witch, witch, you're a witch. Yeah.

Because they would do that to her. Yeah. And she would just like sit in her living room with her dogs. Yeah. If she didn't do it too. Right. You were saying that earlier. Yeah. Like if she didn't do it, how horrific. Yeah. Like your parents were murdered in your home and then for the rest of your life people are singing the song like you did it. And it has this like weird cheerful tone to it. Yeah. That's like la la la. It's like the Freddy Krueger. Why are people so mean? People are awful. Like people are still mean like that. Like, you know, bullying and stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

People are ruthless. People are ruthless. It's the dawn of time. Yeah. But it was a way of constantly reminding both the local courts and the very wealthy Lizzie Borden up on that hill that no matter what the law said, they in the community knew for a fact that she was a murderer. Which maybe not. Nobody can be sure. Nobody can be sure. Maybe. Although the one, okay, the one fact that was really strange to me that Amber had told us

was that they never searched her room because she was a woman. And it was improper. And it seemed improper. Yeah. Which that to me is crazy. Yeah. Like they couldn't go in her room. Well, even her throwing out some of her own like bloody clothes, they didn't investigate it because –

she said she was on her period so they're like oh they're like women don't need to know about that oh gross not touching that like seasoned investigators who were literally doing a crime scene where a man's face was just gone because of a hatchet maybe i can smell the scent from her room we won't go in there it's like what's

No, that's so fucked up. This man's face was literally caved in and you are scared of period blood? They're like, don't talk to us about that. Yeah, they're like, that's gross. That is wild. It's like, what's that then? What's that in the living room if this is gross? What's that? They're like, that's our job. But he's a man. Yeah, he's a man. That's a man's blood. That's cranium blood. That's cranium blood. That's different. It's a different kind of blood. But honestly, I think...

I'm going to end up becoming like a Lizzie-ologist at some point. We're going to revisit it. I think you might already be. Yeah, I think so. We're all invested. So I think maybe if you guys are down at some point, we might do an in-depth look back at it. Are you going to write your own dissertation? Another dissertation is coming your way. Honestly, I'm going to do an in-depth look back at it.

this is one I could get down with because I remember hearing about this since like third grade and just like wanting to know the truth. And we, obviously we did the episode, we did one at the Lizzie Borden house, you know, years ago, obviously, but I, we didn't go as in depth as I think I can now. So, yeah. Yeah. So, uh oh everybody. That was at a different time. Stress.

It's happening. But right now, I'll just give you a quick little overview. I'm going to give you a look at the rhyme, and I'm going to tell you why the rhyme is wrong. And then because I can't stop there ever, and brevity is not my strong suit, I have to talk to you about the autopsy really quick and why those wounds don't make any sense. I'm excited for this because that's a perspective that none of us have the skill set to understand and you do. It's very interesting. It's an interesting one for sure. Okay.

As you guys know, Andrew and Abby Borden were killed in their home in Fall River, Massachusetts on August 4th, 1892. Again, this is a huge Massachusetts crime. The fact that it happened like right in Massachusetts, everybody's kind of obsessed with it. Like we can't stop. It's never going to go away. You go north, you get Salem and the witches. Exactly. You go south, you get Lizzie Borden and her ass. Yeah, so true. We just are like...

We're really focused on these things. But like Ash said, a lot of people believe that Andrew and Abby Borden's daughter, Lizzie, is the culprit. But she was acquitted.

have to keep saying it. She was acquitted. Um, so we're going back to the Lizzie Borden took an ax rhyme. Like we said, it's Lizzie Borden took an ax, gave her mother 40 wax. When she saw what she had done, she gave her father 41. This seems to have actually been created very soon after the trials and murder, because in the Herald, the news Herald on February 15th, 1894. So only two years after the crimes were committed and actually barely two years. Um,

There is an article that says, quote, a Boston lady who brings her children up very carefully and never allows them to see a newspaper found them on going into her nursery the other day singing Lizzie Borden took an axe, gave her mother 20 whacks.

After seeing what she had done, gave her father 21. So it started closer to the actual amount of Axe Wax that did happen. And we have since almost doubled the number as we come this way. Also imagine sheltering your children forever and that's the first fucking thing they find. You're like, this is exactly what I did in Walt. I'm like, you know what? Maybe let them read the newspaper now. Maybe they wouldn't be. Because maybe they'll have the real story at this point. I also think it's

It comments on our society and like the way that it started with 20 whacks to 40 of the way that we love to exaggerate and dramatize things over time. And things that are already horrific in and of themselves and do not need to be made worse. Right. Like she hatcheted her father's face no matter how many times. That's her.

Allegedly she did. Somebody got Andrew Borden. No matter how many times that happened, it's brutal. We don't need to up the ante there. And that's the thing. So the first thing that I can think of that's wrong about this is Andrew Borden was killed while taking a nap on the couch in the front sitting room. And he was struck with what they believe is a hatchet.

11 times. But Alina doesn't know, guys. We're not sure if it's a hatchet. They think it was a hatchet. They think it matched a hatchet. They found the head of a hatchet, I think a handleless hatchet on the property, but they could never determine it was actually the one. But there are thoughts that it could have been something else. Maybe an iron flat.

One of those little things that was found on the stove, which they have a ton of in that house. And we were talking about how much we love those. And it's connected. It's a weapon of opportunity. It's right there. To the kitchen. Yeah. So that is a thought. And who knows? Because again, autopsies weren't like top notch back then. So it's not like they could absolutely. Also, we should note that autopsies took place in the house. In the dining room. Literally in the dining room. Where we spent a lot of our night. Yeah. On the dining room table. Yeah. Yeah.

Where all our snacks were. What about the autopsy table that was hanging up on display? Was that the actual one used or was that a replica? That isn't the one that was actually used in this case, but it is an antique. It's not a replica. It's an antique autopsy table. So other people had autopsies performed on their bodies. Yeah. But not the Borden's for that one. But that is the actual room that it happened in.

But Abby Borden was killed in the guest bedroom right up at the top of the stairs. And she was struck 18 times with a hatchet. So she got more than Andrew and she was killed first, they believe. Wasn't the uncle staying in that room at that like...

I think he was. That is the John Morse room, right? Yeah, she was changing the linens. Yeah, they believe she was. There's also like a thought that I think Lizzie said at one point when they asked where Abby could have been, she was like she was probably sewing. And there's a sewing machine in there. So there was like all these theories. Was she sitting down when it happened? I don't think so. It doesn't make sense to me. Yeah. But it's fully believed that Abby was killed first while, like you said, she was either putting linens away, doing something in that room. Yeah.

You know, it's a guest bedroom. You're always doing something in a guest bedroom when someone's staying with you. So there is a closet at the top of the staircase, too. And it's thought that maybe someone had hit investigators believe this. Someone hid in that closet and came out when she was in the bedroom and struck her from behind, possibly waited in that closet again until Andrew came home and fell asleep and then went down and killed him.

Then, you know, and that all makes sense because like no one else saw anybody else. So it makes sense that he would hide or she. Then when we stayed in the house this time, what made this wild to me was.

was we went into that John Morse room, the room that Abby was found in, the room that that infamous crime scene photo was taken in. And the words immediately that came through on our little spirit box type thing was dirty and then closet. And as soon as they said closet in that room, I asked...

Did someone hide in the closet? And then she said startled. And we were like, did they startle you? And we didn't know any of the closet stuff before. We didn't know it before. Yeah. I didn't know that that was a possibility. And when I found that out, I was like, why in that room would that word come out? Because it didn't happen again or before that in any other room. Nope. Not the word closet. I mean, that was like every haunting we experienced was so specific to what has happened in the house. Yeah. What is alleged to have happened and the types of ghosts that are said to be in those rooms.

And I feel like, I mean, I said this to you when we got to the house, like Corinne and I both decided we're not going to re-listen to the episode that we did about Lizzie Borden because we just didn't want any information to like sway our experience. Yeah, we didn't want to be influenced. No, definitely not. So the fact that none of us, maybe in the past we had had that knowledge, but that it was just like...

Yeah, that's what the closet thing really shook me. That's a weird word to just be said in that room. It's so specific. It was like a minute after we got in that room, too. It was like we were in that room, we settled for a second, and then it was like closet. Right. Well, and those words were not repeated at all.

All. Never. Ever. Throughout the night in any other room. First and only time that that was said. Yes. And it's like when I found out that they think someone was hiding in the closet, it's like, why would that be said? That's so much of a coincidence if that's the case. And there's so many other EVPs that will like visit on you guys' feed that why would that be said in that room? Exactly. Like.

Like the kids and everything. I can't wait to talk about that. When we get into the kids, guys, that. That's on another level. John's like a, my husband is like a super, like he's open-minded with that stuff, but he's a skeptic. Like he wants to debunk it immediately and he doesn't, he like, he can't stand like any ghost shows or anything like on TV where like they're hunting ghosts. He's always like, I don't know. I feel like this is just for TV. Yeah.

Sometimes I feel like that too. I do too sometimes. And I fully believe in the paranormal. Exactly. And when I watch those shows, I'm like, it's hard. Because it's TV. They need to entertain people. Exactly. So he's always kind of like, eh. So when I came home and I showed him the video of the kids' rooms,

In some of the things that happened there, he was like, I have the chills. Like, he was like, I can't explain that. Because he gets the uncut version. He gets to watch the 16 minutes of us sitting there asking stuff. Without anything happening. And the, like, awkward 45 seconds of silence waiting for a response. And then seeing that they, like, fully responded to us while we were talking there, he was like, I can't argue against that. Like, that's a wild one. Yeah. Each room was – and what happened –

In each room, what came through on the spirit boxes and all of the devices were very specific, the messaging. Yeah. Very much. And that closet thing, I just – we started – and the word strangled came out in that room too. Yeah. That was in like the actual like spirit box that we were using. Yeah. So we kind of – so Ash and I were sitting here and we were like trying to like –

to theorize around a strangulation possibly because that's not anywhere really. Like when you find like that, some people have mentioned it here or there, it's really not a thing like that she was strangled or anything like that. So I started, I was like, you know what? Like, let me look at the autopsy report and see if anything in there can tell you. It's not detailed. So it's like, you're not getting a lot out of there. Yeah.

And nothing like right out, nothing screams strangulation and that or anything like that. But there were contusions to the bridge of Abby's nose and her forehead, which are interesting. And initially I figured my initial thought with that was like, okay, that was probably her falling forward after she got hit. Yeah. And she didn't stop herself using her hands because she had been hit in the head and incapacitated and just flat on the ground, you know, but...

Or maybe she fell forward and then was hit and it was like the force of the wax, like her face into the ground, that kind of thing. Or, I mean, this is a really aggressive...

But like what if someone did grab her from the back of her neck and just slam her down? Exactly. Possibly, yeah. Or possibly like you said, grabbed her from the back of the neck and slammed her into the wall in front of her, into the bureau next to her. There's a bureau next to her. She was between the bed and the bureau. And those are heavy duty pieces of furniture. Oh, yeah. You smack your face into those. That's solid wood. There was no –

wood veneer. No, it is used in those days. It's not from Ikea. It's heavy. No, very solid. And these were two... Like, the contusion on her forehead was on the left side of, like, above her eyebrow and on the left side of her forehead. And the bureau, if she was facing the wall, which is where she was found, is to her left. If they took her and slammed her into that dresser to first, like, incapacitate her. But then, according to the autopsy report...

Looking at the 18 wounds to her head, the first one was called a glancing scalp wound. So it was seems to me like that would be one that was like quick and not aimed properly. And I just got to get this in. Wasn't even as hard as it could have possibly been because it's a glancing scalp wound. It was like two inches long, one and a half inches wide. And it was struck about three inches above her left ear hole.

So that was interesting to me because it was said to be done in a downwards motion that did not penetrate the skull. So it just didn't go through the skull. Just a glancing scalp wound about three inches up from her ear hole, which is near your temple. Does that mean someone was taller than her too? That was my thought because if you look at Lizzie, Lizzie is like five foot three, five foot four is what she's thought to have been. And so is Abby. And Abby is five foot three. So they're about the same height. Okay.

I mean, I guess you could raise your... You could definitely raise above, for sure. But she was also the first one killed in the house. And so that sort of thing where you...

you try to hit but you miss that to me indicates there was still a lot of like adrenaline and nervousness building up too yeah especially if they're waiting in the closet for a long time yeah and then you're just bursting out and you got to do it before she can scream because bridget sullivan is outside washing windows right this is happening so you need to do this quick and you need to incapacitate someone quick right um so again not hard enough to penetrate the skull but a decent wound

And the temple area, which if you're hitting the temple, you're going to be dazed and startled. That's a place you don't want to be hit. It's going to like fuck with you. And doesn't that bleed a ton? It bleeds a ton because there's a lot of like stuff going on in there. But interestingly, though, it was her left side, which to me would seem to indicate a left handed person. Because if you're walking up behind her, you're not going to reach across your body to whack her in the left side. Right.

That would just be so awkward. Yeah, it would just be an awkward thing and it would add extra seconds to what you're doing to cross body. And you're not getting a good whack.

Yeah, you don't have nearly as much control. You don't have near. And then it's like, but if it was a glancing scalp wound, was it a right-handed person? And they didn't have a lot of control. So they hit it not that hard. But also we have to remember that people were forced into learning to be right-handed. So perhaps it was someone who to the public and in school were right-handed, but naturally to them using their left-handed. Exactly. Or their left hand. Because people point to the fact that Lizzie was right-handed.

But maybe in school she was. Nothing says that she was not ambidextrous and was just taught to be right-handed. We don't know. Either way. Right. So it could have been either way. But then we were thinking, okay, that would happen if you were coming from behind. And I do believe she was snuck up on behind. I think so. Because the way she fell, it just doesn't make sense that she was turned to face someone. But the second hit was directly to the top of her skull.

Which, if done by Lizzie, would only be done likely if Abby fell to her knees first. Which she did, right? Well, we don't know if she fell to her knees. She landed that way. She ended up falling to her knees. But I don't know if she just fell, like, crumpled into that position. Because also, they moved her to take pictures. So, like, those are even a little bit, like, hairy. I forgot that they had moved them. They said that she was found with her knees up a little bit. But that's, like, you know.

You know, we can only go by so much. But she would have had to have fallen to her knees if this was Lizzie because of the height. I don't think she would be able to get a good whack to the full top of her skull. And it wasn't done with her lying on the ground because you're not, if she's lying on the ground, then her head is a little down. You're not going to get a good whack on the top of the head. So she had to have been at least on her knees.

And again, she would have needed to be facing away. Here's a question. And I wonder if this lines. So we heard the closet startled. What if Abby was going to put away linens or to open that closet door and then got startled that first scrape that kind of hit Abby?

On the odd side of the head where we're like, that person would have to be left-handed. What if that happened there? She started running. She was so scared. She fell down and hit herself. And that's when she was on the ground and started getting bloodshed. That absolutely could have happened. Yeah, that definitely could have. But that does make sense. Do they have imagery of like blood spatter elsewhere? That's an interesting thing. So they don't. It seems like it all happened in that corner. But also...

The blood spatter is strange. It's like it doesn't seem like it was enough almost. Like it's like. So some could have been washed. A lot of it probably got on the person. Okay. To be honest. And especially when you get to like we're going to get to a point where it does penetrate through the skull. In the autopsy report the pieces do. And when it penetrates through a skull you're going to be pulling back out and it's going to make a lock come out. Yes.

So it's going to spray a lot. And it did stay in that little corner. So I think the majority of it happened in that corner. But it's just that thing of like...

She definitely hadn't fallen down yet when that second hit happened. All the way, at least. Because she at least had to be on her knees or standing because to get the top of the head, it's just the angle. Right. You wouldn't... With the wall there, you would have to like almost golf club swing into the top of her head to get it. So you had to get a good like leverage. So it's either someone who was taller or if it was Lizzie, she had to have been on her knees. Yeah. Which kind of like works a little bit both ways because it's like...

At first you're like, okay, well, because they're the same height-ish a little bit, it's less likely to be Lizzie because they were able to do that. But then if she fell on her knees, it makes sense. And she was found with her knees up a little bit, which kind of leads me to believe that she went down on her knees first and then kind of was whacked down more. Because to get 18 whacks and a lot of them on the top of the head, it was before you fell. And I don't think you were standing that whole time. I think you fell to your knees. Yeah.

To me, it's like definitive she was facing the other way and startled because, you know, like we said, it looks like a left-handed person. She was found facing the wall on her knees. If she had fallen to her knees after that first hit and was facing someone, she would have fallen all the way down facing the other way. You're not doing like a spin after. No, you're not going to turn and try to run into the wall. Like you're going to try to run out the door. Right. Yeah.

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But there's a surprise little thing in that autopsy report because before the head wounds, so before that head wound on the left side of her skull, before even the one above that, she was struck in the back first, which kind of confirms the turned around. Yeah. Because it was somewhere above her spine in between the junction where like her neck and her body kind of meet. Yeah.

That would hurt so badly. What I hate about this so much is that I'm picturing someone coming out of the closet, making eye contact with Abby. Abby's already in that spot and doesn't really know what to do. She's got nowhere to go. And the person is just coming around and trying to like almost hook her with the axe to prevent her from being able to get away. Exactly. She's cornered. The only thing... What if she didn't... I kind of hope she didn't see it coming. Like if they didn't make eye contact. And also, isn't there like a place in your spine you would know? If like...

Where it's hit and it kind of severs your ability to feel things. It's like C5. It kind of like... C5, it's stay alive is what it is. Like I hope that that's... If they hit it in that one spot. Feel the pain of everything else. I think unfortunately this was like...

A little superficial. I would love to believe that too. But this is basically one of those things that just kind of tells us a little more about like the fact that she was facing the wall when this happened, which means either this person like ran out of the closet up on her or they might have like snuck on her. Like if she was bent down,

Or getting something out of a drawer, facing the bureau, and they just kind of like creeped up behind her and then whacked. Or, and this is going in the direction of if it was Lizzie, she wouldn't have cared if Lizzie walked in the room. So if Lizzie walked up on her, she just went about her business. If she was being like, oh, Abby, blah, blah, blah, and then whap, like you're...

I think she called her Mother Borden. Mother Borden. No, no, no. Mrs. Borden. Mrs. Borden. She was her stepmom. She wasn't her mother. Her stepmom. Yeah. And she didn't like her. Yeah. They didn't get along. Which, leaning toward if Lizzie did it, Abby got hit a lot more than the father did. She sure did. 18 to 11. That's a lot. There's that. And again, like I said, I don't know. I'm no longer convinced I have any idea what happened. Right.

Because the one reason that I buy Lizzie doing it is the whole theory of like...

her father's abuse and all of that and her being pushed to a place where she had to defend herself. But in that regard, it's like, wouldn't he then have more injuries? You would think. That's the thing. Well, I was reading while you were reading all the autopsy reports. I was just reading different theories. And I guess there's not a lot of evidence that he was abusive toward her. Yeah, I think it's just like... It's kind of a rumor. It's kind of like gossip. Yeah. Probably to try to justify why someone would do that. Yeah, and actually, a lot of people say that she was his favorite daughter.

Yeah.

It was the first crime out of the two. So you're less tired. You got to make sure. Yeah. And also it's just like the. You need to make sure that it's done. Right. Before you can get to the middle. It's kind of like when people are repeat offenders and repeat killers, oftentimes their earlier crimes are the ones that will get them caught because they're the messiest. Yeah. It's true.

And if they had the idea, I need to eliminate these two people, then I need to make sure this is done. I can't leave any kind of possibility that this wasn't done before I move on to the next one. You can take a little more time with Andrew. And especially if Andrew was out of the house in town...

While this was happening, they could have... Which they... They had a little more time. There is rumors that he was. Yeah. And then they waited for him to come in and fall asleep. And it makes sense because there's no way that he could have... I think even if he was sleeping, he would have been woken up by this sound. She would have... Right. Not necessarily that she would have screamed because maybe she didn't, but I think just the sound of like repeated like... Because they're close. Those...

rooms are not far away from each other. I think it was Bridget and somebody else, I'm not sure who was with her, who discovered Abby's body and they only made it halfway up the stairs before they saw. Yeah, it was right there. Because it's that room right at the top of the stairs. It's literally right there. You would definitely hear something. And it's an old home. You would hear someone stomp to the floor. And not only is it an old home, there was no electric

No water, no nothing. So it's even quieter than a regular house. Yeah, you can't blame it on anything else. Yeah. Exactly. And going back to how the word strangulation was said in the room when we were there, I was trying to think of any way that this would work. And the only thing I can think of is could she have been placed in a headlock at any point during this? And then the person kind of struck down at her that way. That's kind of what I thought. Hmm.

But that's also taking away a lot of leverage and force. It could also just imply like loss of breathing. Yeah. Just like the shock. Like feeling strangled. Feeling like you're strangled. Yeah. Also, maybe blood was coming out.

their mouth, which could cause strangulation. That's true, yeah. I've been watching a lot of House lately. I feel like I got my theories. But there's also that theory of the iron flat being used as the murder weapon, which is an interesting thing because they're not even sure that the hatchet matches all the wounds. They think it's a likely hatchet, but it's interesting that that's not even set in stone, but they really go with that.

I'm like, this was an interesting investigation, y'all. Yeah, but the closet thing is wild. That is wild. Just the fact that that was said. Yeah. But back to the rhyme, just to conclude that. Whatever you think happened, if Lizzie did it or not, the rhyme has remained and is very wrong. It's wrong about the number of times they were both hit. It's presuming an axe was used, which an axe wasn't even the thing that they thought was used. It's a hatchet, which is a different thing. And that's always what I equate...

with this crime. I'm like, oh, like you think Lizzie Borden, you think Axe. And then I think I just recently realized like, no, it wasn't even an Axe. Yeah. Even though we've covered this before, my brain always goes there. Because it's just indoctrinated by that nursery rhyme, Lizzie Borden took an Axe. Right. That's like insignificant. You don't say Lizzie Borden took a hatchet.

It does not sound the same. Too wordy. Too many syllables. You need something that rhymes with wax. And that's the only thing that works. Hatchet, you can't. Which a hatchet is much easier to wield than an axe. That's the other thing. It's so true. It's a handheld thing. But it's also, that rhyme is also assuming and telling everybody else that Lizzie is the one who did it. Not even giving you any other suspects, just Lizzie did it. Yeah.

And like you said, when she went to live on the hill in Maplecroft, kids would sing it on her lawn and sing it on her front porch. And if she didn't do it, that's like the most horrific nightmare I could ever imagine. Didn't you say they also used to throw rotten eggs at her house? Oh, yeah. So in a newspaper article called Bothering Lizzie, Grown Boys and Girls Unwelcome Callers at Miss Borden's. It was in the Fall River Daily Globe on May 9th, 1902.

It said the police were called to the Borden home and led to believe the Hill boys and girls were trampling over the lawn, lambasting the side of the Borden home with decayed eggs, ringing the doorbell late at night, tying the doors and calling her vile names when Lizzie answered the door. The police were unable to capture the offenders. Which if she didn't do it, that's so fucked. Like this girl was acquitted.

Yeah. And these are just like little rich assholes. Well, and what this is, is their parents telling them that's Lizzie Borden's house. She killed her parents. And it's like they're the ones telling that those kids aren't coming up with it on their own. No. Where was Emma again when this happened?

Emma was visiting friends when this happened. Yeah. When the murder happened? Yeah, she had been gone for like two weeks. And I think they lived. No, later in life they spent a lot of time together. They did. They did. But then I think there was a big feud between them toward the end of their lives. I remember the original tour that we went on.

Something happened between them and Emma left Maplecroft. Yeah, I think you're right. And you know what? We'll go further into that when we revisit this case because we are absolutely revisiting this case. Because I have so many theories I want to get into but like we don't have time today and I'm like chomping at the bit just to talk about all of those. I know. So now I'm like we're going to do a whole other thing on this because I'm going to look into like everything else. Who knows? Maybe we'll have to go back. I know. Now I'm like and it's we can go there. It's conceivable that we can go back. So it's like

being able to go to the actual place that it happened is a whole different ballgame. Because Jack the Ripper, I was like, can we go to Whitechapel really quick? I just want to see these places. Let's go, girl. I'm in. Let's go. Next time you go, you just bust in. You're like, okay, here are the theories. I'm like, all right. Tell me which one's right. Say a name. I'm going to go room to room and do an investigation again. I think we have to. I'm just saying. I think so. Okay. But yeah, so that is the Lizzie Borden took an ax nursery rhyme. Yes.

And should I start with my first other nursery rhyme? Go for it. This is my second noisery rhyme. I kind of love that. Noisery. I like that. Noisery. So that's a nursery rhyme, but it's more like you said like...

You know, jumping rope song. Yeah, it's a jump rope song. Because you try to get a jump rope song. Exactly, there you go. Yeah, because you say like one, two, three. This is an actual nursery rhyme. So everybody knows Three Blind Mice. Yes. The strangest nursery rhyme ever. It really is. It's pretty out front with the brutality and the weirdness because you're just chopping off...

Mice's Tales? Yeah, don't be doing that. So this is actually, this is definitely one of those Mary Tudor kind of nursery rhymes. It was produced during her reign. Yeah, yeah. A lot of nursery rhymes, noisery rhymes came out during her reign. That is true. So many of them are about her. Yep. Yeah. And a lot of them are just like sensational and wild. Yeah.

A lot of them are supposedly talking about her unrestrained use of violence to reinstate that Catholic church in England. Among those, Three Blind Mice definitely stands out as one of the more explicit, like I was saying, it's just like right out there.

The rhyme first appeared in, I don't know if I'm going to say this right, Deuteromelia? Deuteromelia? You did it. I did it. Or the second part of Music's Melody, which is a book of poems and songs that was originally published in 1609. And this is what it originally said.

Don't know what the fuck that means. But.

But it was written in Old English. And the rhyme doesn't specifically reference violence in this version of it. And given the language, it's like a little difficult to interpret actually at all. But later – But whatever she's doing, she seems to enjoy it if she's licking the knife at the end. There's a knife involved. Yeah. It seems like there's some – something's brewing. It's a weird visual. But later we got the more commonly known version. And that's three blind mice, three blind mice. See how they run. See how they run. See how they run.

They all ran after the farmer's wife who cut off their tails with a carving knife. Did you ever see such a sight in your life as three blind mice? And in this version, Mary Tudor is supposed to be the farmer's wife or the person in a position of power. And the three blind mice are a lot of times interpreted as the three Protestant bishops that Tudor had blinded and burned at the stake for defying her attempts to reinstate Catholic power in England. Shit.

So it's pretty gnarly. Yeah. Now, interestingly, this rhyme first appeared as a folk song. And according to Iona and Peter Opie, they didn't appear in children's literature until about 1842. And in that case, the very thinly veiled references to violence and their possible connection to Tudor actually make sense. They're more explicit because they're intended for adults at that point. Mm-hmm.

So, but as a children's rhyme, it still conveys a reminder, I guess, of like the dangers one can face when, you know, willfully defying the crown of the church. So don't do that. Don't keep it that weird. Don't keep it that weird, I suppose. Right.

Because you can be blinded and burned at the stake, I suppose. Fun! I mean, you could do anything back in the day. You could literally do nothing and be accused of something. You could just exist. Exactly. Breathing. Having lungs in your body. Yeah.

Being any kind of human. Yeah. So yeah, that's three blind mice. Really cute rhyme. Always thought it was weird. Never sang it to my kids. Yeah, there's a lot of rhymes. I feel like we didn't sing any nursery rhymes to your kids because they're all strange. Yeah, we got some like books when they were little. Yeah. Like people would give you books of like nursery rhymes and stuff. And a lot of times I'd be in the middle of reading one at bedtime and I'd be like,

We're going to do another book. Never mind. You know what? I don't know about this one because a lot of them like have like racist undertones. Yes. So many. And they're not even like subtle. Like they're. No, it's right out there. I feel gross reading this. So I'm not going to read it to you. And we're going to get rid of this book. Yeah. We're going to go ahead and say goodbye to that one. It is weird and kind of disturbing how so many things that are geared towards children. Yeah.

Like their roots are very terrifying or just violent. Racist. Like even like Grimm's fairy tales. Like so many fairy tales are rooted in dark things. Or a lot of them, like even I was looking at like some European and worldwide nursery rhymes and they, so many of them are written to terrify kids. Yeah. With the purpose of behaviorism.

or this terrifying monster is going to come eat you. Yes, exactly. That's just like how people raised their kids back in the day. They were just like, terrified them into submission. It reminds me of Dwight in The Office when he says, learn your rules. You better learn your rules. If you don't, you'll be eaten in your sleep. Ha! Ha! Ha!

I never even watched The Office, but I learned that from you and I love it. I say that all the time. So funny. Well, I have a little bit of a different one. I have Goosey Goosey Gander. So adorable. I bet it has such a wholesome beginning. Goosey Goosey Gander. I didn't even know this one, actually. Really? I don't think I do either. Yeah. Do you know how it goes? I will tell you now because I do now.

But I guess this popular British children's rhyme, Goosey Goosey Gander, first appeared in Gammer Gertens Garland or the nursery parnassian alliteration there. I know. I love a good alliteration. Oh, yeah. But it was a collection of popular children's nursery rhymes first published in 1784. And the most common version is Goosey Goosey Gander, Whither Shall I Wander?

I hope the left leg is not about a leg. Well, later versions of this rhyme came to include an additional four lines.

Because it needed a little bit more. Yeah, they're like, you know what? That's not enough. It leaves you wanting more. It did, to be honest. It did. So here you go. The stairs went crack. He nearly broke his back. I'm sure. And all the little ducks went quack, quack, quack. Adorable. So one popular... Love it. I just picture a child just launching an old man down the stairs by his left leg. And it's like...

Because he didn't pray? Because he didn't pray. He didn't say his prayers. And then the ducks are like quack, quack, quack, quack, quack. To me, it was like when it was talking about the ladies' chambers and stuff, I felt like he was just a perv. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. They just kick you out. They just launched him down the stairs. That's why I was hoping it was launched by the third leg.

So I think you guys are kind of on to the right track there. Because one popular interpretation of this rhyme is that it contains sexual overtones, with the goose symbolizing fertility, particularly with the reference, my lady's chamber. Yeah.

Similarly, librarian Chris Roberts writes, and days gone by goose was a common term for, and he says, prostitute. So the early part of the rhyme conceivably alludes to the spread of venereal disease. Oh. With lines about wandering and a lady's chambers referring to the procurement of a sex worker's services. Wow.

Wow. And then like, you know, throwing him out once the services have been procured. Yeah. Yes. Right. But... No one likes a man who lingers. No, don't be lingering. She'll throw you down the stairs. But that's not the only interpretation. Another popular interpretation is that the Goosey Gander rhyme actually tells a story of religious persecution in England. I guess in 1650, there were a shit ton of brothels around London that existed on land that was actually owned by the Catholic Church, which...

Like conceive that in your mind. Yeah. Yeah. Very ironic. But when Henry the eighth sees that land and then claimed it for the crown, he not only shut down the brothel brothel, excuse me, sending their customers wandering, but he also dealt a very heavy blow to Catholicism and,

So the reference to the old man who wouldn't say his prayers could possibly be a reference to Catholic priests and bishops who were punished for not reading from scripture published by the Church of England and for resisting or defying Protestant authority.

So not only would that explanation be a more complete interpretation of the rhyme, because like the sexual overtones are there, but then you get to the end and it does kind of fall off. It unravels. With like he wouldn't say his prayers. But it would also be in keeping with Hazlett's theory of hidden literacies. In this case, the simple cheery children's rhyme is used to explain a major shift in the physical and cultural landscape that removed power from the Catholic Church. And it reminded others of the potential consequences of defying Protestant rule.

Damn, Henry VIII is just like all up in everything terrible. He's everywhere. He's just all up in everything. Anything in history. He might be my Jack the Ripper. It's fascinating. London and English history. And Anne Boleyn. Once you start looking into that.

It's hard to stop. And there's so many mysteries, like the missing princes. Yes, the princes of the tower. Oh, it's so sad. It's so, so sad. They found them, didn't they? They found them. They believe. So they found the remains of two childlike, but there's no way to verify. You can't confirm it, right? Yeah. That's so sad. They just believe it to be true. But there's so many. The wives, like...

We saw six, which by the way, so good. Oh wait, I saw it too. It's so fun. We loved it. It is so fun. That was my first Broadway show. I loved at the end how everyone was like standing up and dancing. Yes, it's just like a party. Everyone just dances. The music is so fun. It is really fun. And that, it's like after that, you're just like, now I want to know everything. Well,

Like, you just can't stop. I'm like, no, I have to look at it. I actually saw that show right after we had done a two-parter on Tower of London. Oh, really? And so I was, like, so fully immersed in that history already that I was like, we left and I was rattling off all these facts to my family and my sister's like, who?

Who are you? What is going on? How do you know this? When you like hyper fixate on something and you're like, let me tell you everything I know. Oh my God. Someone's like, what is wrong with you? John knows all about hyper fixation because every single week I'll look over at him and I'll just be like, do you want to know about submersibles? And he's like, why? He's like, no, I don't actually. He's like, again?

Sometimes I'll come over and he's like, she's going to tell you about this. Yeah, he's like, she's going to tell you about something today. Just listen. Just let her get through it. Do you guys have a hyper fixation meal? Like a food that you just have eaten every single day for like three years? And then I wear it out to the point where I don't like it. And then I have to leave it for a while. And then I'll come back to it later. I feel like so many people have those and I don't think I have one. Really? Yeah. Because I feel a little bit out of the crowd because everyone... You're an explorer. Yeah. You're a Gemini. I am a Gemini. I feel like Geminis are just like,

Whatever. I'll do whatever. But every girly on TikTok is like, this is my hyper fixation meal. And I'm like, I want one. I hyper fix it on everything. Like I have a hyper fixation meal, music, music.

Yucks. Like I hyper fixate on things. Yeah. When I have it, like when I'm in one thing, I'm so hyper in it that, yeah. I have to know everything about it. I have to like, like I, John showed me Ghost, the band. I knew the entire lore of that band. And three years in, we don't really listen to other music. No. Like in the car with Elena, I listen to a lot of other music. No, you get in the car with me, I'm like, boop, boop, boop.

And this is why we understand your day list recommendation. Wait, what's up? Let's check our day list. Mine always are mean to me. Is this one mean to you right now? Oh, wait. Oh, mine is anti-depression grief Thursday. Wow.

That sounds like what mine usually are. Mine's 90s Thursday afternoon, actually. That's fun. That's great. Which is less aggressive. And the first song on it is by Ghost. I just thought of that. Okay. Accurate. Accurate. Mine is Nostalgia Ox approved Thursday afternoon. And the first song is Rock Your Body by Justin Timberlake. I don't know about that, you guys. That is so good. Oh, my God. I love that.

Mine is also just spot on again. Cozy granola vibes Thursday afternoon. Wait, what's your first song? Because maybe we have the same one. Mine's Orange Juice by Noah Khan. Oh, mine's Beige by Yolk Lore. I haven't started my Rock Lobster B-52. Oh, my God. I'm a version. Yeah. I'll keep you updated. Yes. Once a day. I'm going to play it to see what it does to see what's going on. Yeah. Yeah.

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Okay, so this one that I chose has a lot of lore because there's two trains of thought in terms of what this nursery rhyme is talking about, but it's Georgie Porgy. Have you heard this one? Yep. Yep.

Georgie Porgie pudding and pie kissed the girls and made them cry. When the boys come out to play, Georgie Porgie ran away. Georgie Porgie. Georgie Porgie. Georgie Porgie. And so unfortunately in modern day, this nursery rhyme is used often to taunt boys either named George or boys who are a little overweight because it's talking about him eating cake.

pie and just, you know, just enjoying the indulgences of life. Yeah. What's wrong with that? God, what is wrong with you? But then he's like non-consensually kissing girls and making them cry. So you're like, honestly, Georgie, fuck off. Georgie, you're poor G. You're poor G, all right? We all know a Georgie poor G. We sure do. We do. Unfortunately. I did have a Georgie poor G growing up. There was a, his name was

Should I just out him? Wow, she went first name, last name. You fucked up. He did this to me. You fucked up big time. He would chase me, like, for years and pin me down and kiss me on the playground. And he, like, recruited people. It was. Wait, he recruited people to, like, tackle you? Yeah.

Wow. There was another kid, but yeah, they chased me. Wow. Where were the adults when we were children? Today? That school will be shut down. Right? That happened to me in second grade. But it has a better ending. A kid came up and like tackled me and kissed me and I punched him in the face. And so my parents got brought in to say- Did you get in trouble? I was going to get in trouble until my dad said, did he kiss her? Yeah.

And they were like, yeah. And he was like, did he ask before he did that? And they were like, well, of course not. Like, you know, they're in second grade or whatever. And he was like, is he all right? Is he going to live? And they were like, yep. And he was like, I see nothing wrong here except for what he did. He was like, no one. My dad was literally like, no one touches her without her consent. She has the right to do anything to defend herself. Meanwhile, I was told. It means he has a crush on

crush on you. And I'm like there with like I truly had band-aids covering my knees for years of my life because the amount of times I would fall on the pavement and scratch my knees from him chasing me. This is traumatizing. And this is why I spent three months in trauma treatment. That is such a like common thing too that people still do is like oh he's mean to you because he has a crush on you. I never tell my kids that. I'm like he's mean to you because he's an asshole.

Like, he's mean to you because he's an asshole. Don't go near him. Because you don't want them to grow up and seek romantic partners that hurt them. Being treated like shit means he likes you. No. No. He's just being a little dick. Yeah, being an asshole is not my love language. Not cute. Yeah. All right, we're all on the same page. The Georgie Porgie hate group. Yeah.

Okay, well, it is believed that Georgie Porgie is based off of George Villiers, the first Duke of Buckingham and King James I of England, because the two are rumored to have been lovers. Lovers. So this is a bit of queer history making its way into a nursery rhyme. Obsessed.

King James first met George in 1614 and he was like, oh my God, whoa, this guy is super hot. And so he bought George a whole new wardrobe and many other things, which is a damn, right? Like, are you love bombing? Is this a sick? Yeah. Like what's happening here? What's going on? Falling in love, you know, I love the woman situation. And George was super into it. So he also began intensely lobbying to be appointed as the Royal cup bearer.

Stop. Which was a position... Which was not a euphemism. Are we sure? That's like a Freudian flip back in the day. But this position, if he got it, which, spoiler alert, he did, it would allow him to speak to the king as they served drinks at the royal table and basically just give him a lot of access to the king and obviously like some alone time, I'm sure. Yeah, bearing his cup. George also...

Wait till you see this picture I added. George also started dancing at masks, which were these...

parties thrown in the court and George would move his body in this really enchanting way showing off his grace and his beauty and his physique and he would wear these belly shirts and a skirt which was a very normal costume actually for all of the dancers of that time so I pulled a photo for you to see. When you see this you're gonna want him. George is an enigma. We need a link to George. I'd like to know it for his outfit. George!

George is Britney Spears toxic. Yes. Oh my gosh. He really is. 100%.

So obviously King James is like, how can I resist this man? He's so hot. And he would call him Steenie, which was a nickname named after another man who was said to have like the face of an angel. So his nickname for George, his cup bearer, was basically talking about how gorgeous he is. So obviously people are like, I love this. It is really nice.

But King James, he felt like he had to speak on the situation because there were a lot of rumors and he was like, let me dispel the rumors. And so he went and officially made a speech to the Privy Court and said, quote, You may be sure that I love the Earl of Beckingham more than anyone else and more than you who are here assembled. I wish to speak in my own behalf and not to have it thought to be a defect for Jesus Christ did the same and therefore I cannot be blamed. Christ had John. I have George. Oh.

I love it. I'm obsessed. This was like a very – He was defending it. I love that he embraced this. I love that. That's amazing. Wow. I just got chills a little bit. I know. No, seriously. This is a lovely love story. I love that he's just like JC and John, okay? Yeah. JC and George. JC and John. You guys fell for Jesus? Why can't you fall for me and George? We're adding that to the jacket, JC and John. JC and John. You being shitty to me about it. JC and John. Yes.

They also, King James and George Lee would exchange these really romantic and like seductive, sexy letters to one another. And one of them. Bring back letter writing. Right? Yes. Yes, please. Yeah. But then also bring back letter writing and only write what you're okay with future people reading on a podcast like hundreds of years in the future. Yeah. Because they have the letters and we're about to expose some of it. Yes. Let's go. King James wrote this.

God bless you, my sweet child and – wait. Yes. In a letter to George, King James wrote, God bless you, my sweet child and wife. And Grant – because also he had a wife and a child. Oh, damn. As you do back then. Yeah, you know. Everyone had a – Yeah. It's a whole thing. Had a woman, but then, you know, sometimes they also had a man. Yeah. Yeah.

So he's like...

Damn. Mikey's like, damn. Mikey's fully turned, like headphones off. Oh my gosh. Okay. And this is by far, I think the sexiest line that has been written in one of their letters because years later, because they had this love affair for over a decade. Years later, King James wrote another letter to George and he was a little bit more straightforward and to the point.

He said, whether you loved me now better than at a time which I shall never forget, Farnham, where the bed's head could not be found between the master and his dog. Whoa. Is that not talking about like role play? 100%. Whoa. That was sexy times. Headboards banging, baby. Yeah. Damn. Where were the body parts? You couldn't even see them because they were freaking flying in Farnham. Wow. I love the way that people...

turned each other on and talked each other's parts up back in the day. Yes. There was so much more effort and like thought put behind the words that they chose. It was way more beautiful. Now it's so crass. I know. Now it's like someone just sending a dick pic. Unsolicited. Yeah. I was in a church once. But like that kind of shit? You're just like, I was on a family vacation. That was, I was in a church once. J.C. and Sabrina. Yeah.

Oh my God. It's getting torrid in here. The doors to the church are always open. Hallelujah. Oh my God.

Okay, so these two men, King James and George, they stayed really close until King James – well, close as in they were dating. They were fully lovers. They were fucking. Yeah, they were fucking until he died. King James did pass away in 1625, and George was also to have seduced some women in his time too, so he had partners of his own outside of King James, it is thought. Yeah.

But in terms of the nursery rhyme, to go back to Georgie Porgie's nursery rhyme, it was Georgie Porgie putting in pie, kissed the girls, made them cry. When the boys come out to play, Georgie Porgie ran away. So it's thought that perhaps this could be in reference to George spending some time outside of his relationship with King James, kissing women who potentially were married. And then those men coming a-knocking to have a duel and to confront George. And he's running away. He's like, bye. Bye.

He's running away and he's being protected by his lover, King James. The king. And he has like no intention of technically being with these women probably. Right. So it's like he's in love with James. Right. Totally. So it's like kiss the girls, make them cry because you're leaving them. Yeah. Like you really don't have. You're running. You're kissing and running. Yeah. It's a kiss and run.

And King James did protect George a lot. He actually dissolved Parliament twice to keep George from being impeached. Wow. And then after King James passed away, George had very little protection left and eventually was assassinated by political rivals. Wow. Yeah. What a fucking story. I know. Damn.

Why is there not a movie about this? I know. The whole way that you were picturing or talking about it, I was picturing it in my head like a movie. Oh my god, yeah. It really does feel like it. Call me by your name. Where are the peaches? But like, he definitely has gout. So it's a little less hot. Slightly less hot. Yeah. If you get past the scabies. But they could make it sexy. Like the Marie Antoinette movie. Between the gout and the like, no hygiene whatsoever. Right.

But he's probably a theater package, so it's okay. There should be a theater package, though, where similar to when you go to like Disneyland and Universal and those certain rides that will like spray a scent at you. There should be, not that I would ever want to experience this, but there should be some scent. Yep.

Scented movies. Yeah. 4D. Yeah. Absolutely they should. It's like the naked scene and they're like getting all seduced and it's just musty. Like who makes those scents and is like, I could put this, this and this together and it will smell like stinky feet. Yeah.

You know what I mean? That's a good question. Or like the jelly beans. I put right now because I feel like my nose is oriented to it. Yeah, you've been around to do it. Pregnant women. Just pregnant women. Pregnant women do it. There's got to be like throw up buckets, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 100%. Yeah. Or like the jelly beans, like the Harry Potter ones that taste like earwax and stuff. You're like, but who knows? Like who knows?

Why do they still get on? They are. That also brings up so many questions. You know how artificial vanilla is apparently made from beaver butt goo? Yeah. Who...

Who decided, let me just taste this excretion from a beaver's bum. Wow, this tastes like vanilla. This is really upsetting. Who made that first move? Good questions. Who made that step? And who decided to put horse hooves in Skittles? Yeah. And who killed the Bordens? Exactly. These are the questions. These are the questions on our new show.

Now I'm back to our sitcom that we're creating. And our sitcom, for anyone that doesn't know, is Sabrina and I acting out her life with a two-person laugh track that is just Ash and Elena. Just like the old man in the Muppets in a balcony somewhere. That will be us someday. Like, yeah! The first episode can be the dick pic in the church. Honestly,

Honestly. We should talk later, okay? Yeah. Let's figure this out. We're going to get this done. George would be into it. So would King James. There you go. But going back to this nursery rhyme for just a moment, there is some debate over what or who this nursery rhyme references. So a lot of people believe that it's the story of

the Duke George and King James I. But people also said that the line, when the boys come out to play, was actually added later. And there were no written theories about this nursery rhyme being about King James and George until Iona and Peter Opie, who are folklorists who use modern techniques to understand children's literature and nursery rhymes, they theorized that

That this was in reference to George and James's affair. So they were the first people to put like in print and many, many centuries, decades later that it was about these two. But for a long time, people speculated that it was actually about King George IV himself.

who was a larger man who had a lot of sex, had a lot of different women, had a lot of different children with those different women. He hated his wives and would make them cry. And he loved to fight bare knuckled in these illegal fighting rings. So he would fight them and then maybe run away for his life. Yeah. So that one does make sense. People couldn't run away from him because he's the king. They had to let him win.

Yeah, you're right. So that one does make sense, but I prefer George and James' love story. I prefer that way more romantic. Yeah. I love that one. Yeah. So some nursery rhymes have lovely beginnings. Are beautiful. Yeah. Because we're going with that. We are. It's canon now. But it's James and George. We're going with it. Yeah. That's it. Okay. I can't pick between the two that I'm going to do, so I'm going to do abbreviated for both of them. Love that. Okay. Because...

Ring around the rosy. Ah. A pocket full of posies. Ashes. Did you say ashes, ashes or a tissue, a tissue? Oh, ashes, ashes. Okay, so I did too. We all fall down. The website I found said a tissue, a tissue. Oh. We all fall down. The king has sent his daughter to fetch a pail of water. A tissue, a tissue. We all fall down. The robin on the steeple is singing to the people. A tissue, a tissue. We all fall down. Or ashes, ashes. The wedding bells are ringing. The boys and girls are singing.

A tissue, a tissue, we all fall down. Yeah, I never heard a tissue, a tissue. Yeah, me neither. But I kind of like it better. I like ashes better. I like ashes too. And I think we all know ashes. Yeah. It's easier to say. It is. Because also over time, I think a lot of people adopted this nursery rhyme and like changed it based on whatever was going on in that society. Yeah.

But as of recently, there's been a rumor that this is all about the Great Plague. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that the ring around a Rosie's is about like the rashes that people would get. That the pocket full of posies is what doctors and medical people would use to cover up the stench. Yep. And then ashes, ashes was to indicate the burning and cremating of all those who died. But...

It isn't true, you guys. Oh. I never knew that. Because cremating was not allowed during this time. Also, the first mention of Ring Around Rosie doesn't come around until 700 or so years afterwards. Oh. Yeah. Interesting. So then, like, there's just a whole bunch of versions of what it could be, but I really like this one. What if it's actually a game? Kind of like Spin the Bottle. Oh. Oh.

Because in the 19th century, there was a Protestant dancing band in both America and England. Like Footloose. Like Footloose, exactly. And so kids would have these like play parties where they would sing and dance and kind of be like, F you. And they would sing, they would gather in a circle holding hands, singing Ring Around the Rosie and dancing.

they make it a game where when you do we all fall down whoever was the last person to fall down had to out who they crushed on in the circle. This is so fun. We've been playing wrong. We've been playing it wrong. This is better. Right? Isn't this like a fun twist that we didn't know? Yeah, I like this. And they would either have to profess their love for someone in the circle or kiss or hug the person. Oh. Scandalous. Scandaloso. I'm thinking about all the people who would like not fall down. Yeah.

So they could kiss their crush. Not fall down. Oh, yeah. I love that. Yeah, so that's... I've never heard of that. Me neither. I hadn't either. I was so surprised. That's so cool. Because it's always listed as a nursery rhyme that's associated with dark history. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Always. Always. And there's no evidence. There's literally no evidence that actually points to it being...

from the plague at all. And now that you said like all those things like weren't, they didn't come about until like years and years later. That's so crazy. Yeah. That's nuts. Okay. So then the last one I was going to do is London Bridge is falling down and it's

London Bridge is falling down, falling down, falling down. London Bridge is falling down, my fair lady. I couldn't remember the last line. You got me. I started it, okay? I feel like you and I were staring into each other's eyes too as we were doing it. It was like, someone's going to say it. I also wonder if the microphone, I'm sure, didn't pick it up, but we were all rocking so aggressively to the right and left.

And then like, yeah, when you were a kid, but you would hold hands with someone and then try to trap them. This is how I got my scar on the bottom of my lip. No way. I was underneath my cousins and they were trying to trap me. And I think I tried to run out really quickly and I slid into the corner of a...

Like a wall. Oh, my gosh. You were like, I am not being trapped. And I didn't get caught. And that's all that matters. And that's the dark meaning. I won. I won. Blood is gushing down my face. But basically, people believe that this is because it took – the London Bridge has been built, rebuilt, attacked, caught fire –

again fallen apart so many times that it's kind of a reference to that um and people say that there are so many pieces of the bridge now in the river below just because like pieces would fall apart like fall off that's so scary so there was a medieval bridge that was the london bridge and then it was rebuilt and replaced in 1176 damn which took years to complete and

And it was during this building of the bridge that a really dark and morbid belief. It's a superstition. It's not real, I guess. But the idea is that it was a superstition that the bridge would not stand unless they made a sacrifice to the gods and stuff. And so they would bury people alive in the bridge.

And like brick them in as it was being rebuilt. So there is this form of torture from the medieval times called immurement, which is when a person is encased into a room with no opening or exit and left there to die. So the lyrics that are take the key and lock her up seem to point to this. And there's a belief that they would trap people in these stones. There were some articles that say children. I just feel like it's one of those examples of making things up.

Yeah. Let's make it even worse. Yeah. And it was basically a sacrifice to the gods in order to keep the bridge standing because this bridge has been taken down. And actually, I think the there so there's the medieval London Bridge. There's the old London Bridge. There's the new old London Bridge. And then there's the current London Bridge. Damn. The new old London Bridge was actually like move brick by brick to Lake Havasu, Arizona. Wow.

Why? Yeah. What did Arizona do to get that? There's like this American billionaire, billionaire, must have been a billionaire, who was like, I want that bridge. Arizona was just like, can I have it? Yeah. They don't already have enough weird stuff. Yeah. Seriously. Give us the London Bridge. Yeah. But so basically you would find some evidence of people having been bricked in and they never have. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Here's the best part about this nursery rhyme, and it's very musical. So the Vikings, they took on these conquests, and they would attack, they would murder, they would take over cities. So this belief is that they were heading towards London in 1014. They were setting off on their ships, and they were getting towards the London Bridge. And this part, I took some creative liberties. Okay.

A man on the ship starts humming a tune under his breath. He sees the bridge up in the distance. I like it. London Bridge is falling down. It's very quiet. And then suddenly, next thing he knows, others are joining in. And by the time they reach the bridge, it was a choir of boisterous, deep baritone voices echoing off the waters. All rowing to it. Rowing and harmonizing. They're practically going to the beach. Their war musical number. Yeah.

And they tried to attack the London Bridge. I am obsessed with that one. Yeah, that's my favorite. That is the one. The Vikings loved musicals. They do. They love a choreographed number. They're brutal and violent. They will murder everyone, but...

But damn, they love to row and sink. They will put on a show before they do it. Yeah, they will. Good for them. Their braids just billowing in the wind. So those were our weird nursery rhymes and a little bit of information on Lizzie Borden, but we're definitely going to explore more because not only is Alina a ripperologist, she is now a Lizzie-ologist. And I'm joining on this one. Yeah, Borden-ologist. Let's go. Let's become Borden-ologists together. We're in. Oh, absolutely. We'll be your laugh track forever.

for that episode. Hell yeah. A gasp track. More gasping, more laughing. Oh, it's happening. We're wrapping up this episode, but remember you should go over to the Two Girls, One Ghost feed and listen to that episode where we're going to go talk about all of the scary shit in depth that we experienced in the house. We're going to have audio in there from it. Get ready. There's so much stuff to reference. With that being said, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it

But that's so weird that you don't go listen to Two Girls One Ghost Feed to hear all that bye. Hear all that bye. Double crap. Hear all that goodbye. Bye. Bye.

She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence and then she left him there.

In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask.

Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police cover-up. If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover-up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion.

And after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision. To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.