#864 - Donald Robertson - The True Story Of History’s Greatest Philosopher
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Hello, friends, welcome back to the show. My guess is today is Donald Robertson. He's a cognitive behavioral psychotherapist and author and an expert on ancient philosophy.

If you were to divide philosophy into two areas, IT would be prosecco. And post critic securities is history's greatest philosopher. And today we get to discover new lessons about his life and his teachings. Expect to learn the benefits of thinking like cities, why he was so influential even today, what the secure tic method actually is, the hidden gem, lessons from socrates on how to live a good life, the insane story of how he died, and much more. This episode is brought you by shop fine.

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Dude, I love, every time that we get to speak, adored all of your last box. And you done a new one about cities. Why would anyone want to think like? Cr.

why would anyone care about this old day White guy or whatever? Because I I love socrates, I love Marks are really is. But so cuties is like the next level you I really am excited to be able to talk and and right about him in stuff.

So cuties was that i'll tell you why this is going to seem like another answer, right? Those eric lipton, right? And guys like that.

And then those jemy hendricks, right? Ecs is amazing. Guitar rorie by jemy hendricks, to me, anyway, sounds like is from another planet.

Gme henric take his guitar to bed with him. He woke up in the morning, strapped his guitar on and friday eggs wearing his guitar. He went to the lavatory wearing his guitar. right? Psychos called that time on task like he was constantly practicing as stuff like he was obsess with IT.

So create reminds me and now solar phy regard of the main, because the way he's described to us is that he's a guy who abandoned everything else and just spend all day everyday discussing what he considered to be the most important questions in life with anybody, the the greatest, and lectures that he could find the in the non world, prostitutes, politicians, slaves, you name everybody from all walks of life. So he had, he was like the Jimmy hendry ics of philosophy, like he never took his guitar a off he was constantly doing. I can't imagine someone in modern society spending that amount of time really analyzing the contradictions, and someone always thinking, so socks, to me, is a kind of a unique individual and IT IT comes through.

We don't know there's this thing called the cyclic problem that we don't know, but we should acknowledge at the beginning that we don't know for sure how close a representation, platters, dialogues or the other sources that we have are of the real saw cries. But I think his character comes through to some extent that those I was are probably semifixed. They're embarked, shed the bet.

But the real guy kind of shame through his some extent, and he must have been an extraordinary individual. He, somebody, here's a tremendous capacity for thinking outside the box, for spotting logical contradiction tions. And he said some of the most radical things in the history of western philosophy.

Not only that, I see him as the godfather of modern self help and self improvement psychology of the greg greg, granddad of corporate or behavioral therapy. So as A A psychotherapist of common behavioral therapy, you know, I I looked to security as somebody who stands at the very origin of our tradition. But also, I think in some ways, we've kind of gone a street in ways that he warned us a boat. So by going back and looking at what he originally said, I think we can figure out maybe and see beyond some of the mistakes .

that we may made along the way you mention the um maybe historical gap with regards to what we know about him, how we would have learned about him, how do we know anything about him. So of what are the scraps of material that you've .

beam using to write this book? Well, the most famous thing is that we have play to his dialogues. There are like thirty sex dialogues of the feature, and it's generally assumed by scholars.

The plato changed his approach without his career. Early in his career, he ruled a more literal description. Authorities fully embraced a bit.

As time went on. He starts to use security more and more as a mouth peace, probably for his own views. Like plato's famous meta physical theory, the theory of forms probably wasn't something that soc ties ever actually said.

Socket ties is we are doing. Philosophe seems to be more canna homely, down to more focused on apply effects and daily life, basically. So we have those, and, and, you know, did plato dialogues are just an incredible, you know, plato was also a genius.

And so we have the ratings of genius about another genius basically. You know, some of these takes of the most profound and moving pieces of literature and in the western canon, and you know, I sell dom recommend books to people finally, enough, unless I know them very well. But my one exception to that is that I think everybody should read place to apology, because I think it's a masterpiece.

And IT only takes a couple of hours to read as the so we got all that stuff and then we have zen for another student observations and his dialogues are less well known. But we have a bunch h of like thirty of four or dialogues, shorter ones more down to af from zenana hon as well. And then we have this really weird thing, which is a play by aristophanes, which is a satya ridiculing socrates, that was written and performed during his lifetime.

And we learn almost nothing from that. Or it's hard to tell anything from that because it's a character that tells been pretty famous during his lifetime for a people to have ridiculed him charicles ul m like that. And then we have what's called the anodos tradition, which is like basically a bunch of little Annie ts and quips about socks, said the socket that that that we tend to find them later.

Author, so there are more jubiter reliability. But all together, all the stuff tells us something about what we could frame is the literary character of security. So mark, a realist, and other subsequent bankers that followed the subsequent to Operations would have none of her, mainly through these writings. So we can say what's influencing them as as character of ties that was passed down. But other writers, and as a big question mark about how closely designate to the real guy, don't never know.

Why was he so influential?

Well, the ancient answer to that question as that he was the, he wasn't the first philosophy. He was not even the first physical, her athens. But they used to say that he was the first philosopher that brought philosophy really down to earth and applied IT to everyday matters, kind of almost making into a psychotherapy.

Basically, he would talk people about the nature of love. He will talk to generals in the military about the nature of courage. You know, he would talk to prison about the natural priest. He talked to his friends about the anger. The most kind of homely dialogue that we have is in xenophon and in its security.

Um has a conversation with his teenage son lamps because lamp ic is really upset about his mom nagging him and socket ties helps his son to kind of reframe, overcome his anger towards his mother right? That's probably the most kind of down to air of example of a secretive dialogue that we have. So that kind of what he was particularly known for doing, but also he took the method of dialectic or philosophical question and answer I T into his own trademark method called the secure tic method, and really began to much more radically and thoroughly question the assumptions about morality.

But mainly that people are around him were making and not made him a controversial gar. You know, he was like dying that, you know, some people were almost addicted to be in questioned by created they fender incredibly elaborating experience. Other people found the embarrassing, a humiliating, and they hated him and they went after him.

So I wouldn't be overly simplifying things to say that security asked too many questions, rocked the ball, upset some powerful people. And we will know how that ended for her. Me was made to drank and lock.

What was the existing philosopher world that he ended into? You mentioned ed there that he he wasn't the first pho soph, probably by broadcasting gory, but he's the first one to bring IT down to earth. What was, what was the state philosophically, of the existing world?

Will the two main philosophical al traditions proceeded them? Underwear, others? So is not at more complex, but the ones that are most relevant to him.

As the first philosopher athens was a guy called on exist who came from the greek colonies um which would be on N I O N which would be on the the cost of tarkett basically. So when we talk about greek philosopher, but we're often about confused what where they came from. They didn't come from.

Many of them came from from colonies that are much father I field. So an exaggeration, what we call a natural philosophy. All these, the famous thing, but soccer is, we refer to everyone that came before him as psycho tic. That's how influential he was before crisis.

the before cries of philosophy yeah so .

the natural philosopher kind of in many ways precautions of uh of modern science. They try to explain things, broadly speaking, using physical descriptions. You know they were interested in very interested in astronomy, very interested in physiology.

And that was a great thing for athenian culture and great culture. IT was also very controversial because they chAllenged traditional superstitions. So people would think that thunder and lightnings was caused by zoos, and the natural loss was said. We reckon it's caused by clothes Robin together, or something like that earthquake, just a natural phenomenon and things.

And I had a surprisingly big impact on society, just as on side, there's a famous onic, though, about how particles that the most influential, most powerful ethie statesman at this time was about to say, say, all with his fleet on a military campaign. And there was a an eclipse, and his crew were Carrying in fear, and they refused to do, is very often the greeks would abandon particularly the spins were known for the, by the way, they were abandoned battles because they were concerned about 呃， bad omens and so on. Empirically supposedly explained the natural philosopher that he had been taught by an ex aggress.

And he said, this is just something passing in front of the sun, as if I put my clock in front of your eyes. But his father away in much bigger, and he, convinced by giving this down to earth naturism explanation, he managed to convince his troops to set seal. And so IT changed the outcome of battles. But I hope of dramatic was, but the same time I also upset a lot of people, and so on. Exact Grace was also placed on trial for empire ty in your big belong before secretes so there was an exciting and circles thought this philosophy though doesn't teach wisdom he said an exigence um didn't really understand anything about natural justice and injustice so when he was placed on trial, supposedly he was a broken man as a result and we can contrast how an exact is badly with being excised um and then subsequently sentenced to death for empire and how security famously exhibited courage uh and stood by his principles because he had prepared himself to understand justice and injustice from a much much profit philosophical perspective so the the next agree and that many other natural philosopher the socket had studied and then a bit later we get these guys called the office. And their name implies that they claim to be wise.

They claim to be to have expertise and the self taught Young men oratory and retract um they were kind of like self improvement good is in a sense but they also taught people how to becomes successful politicians and confident public speakers and they where the first one was protected ous who so cuties new personally um and questioned that seems to be been a key moment in his career the security basically thought the office were far too concerned with just winning our arguments and they would sacrifice the truth so they're teach you how to win a debate in the body right? But they can say on, to put IT very simply, was he said, how much time have you guys spent trying to figure what's in the best interest of society or what's just and what's unjust, like zero, zero time that you spend all of your time trying to figure out how you can convince all the people what's just are in their interests before the assembly. Now, this is a very simple argument.

But weirdly, israel, a kind of a place today, like, you know, so people get into politics because they want to influence society, you know, but how many politicians seem to invested that much time and never and trying to figure out what genuinely in the interests of individuals or society, soccer says that would be like going to see a doctor the'd never spend any time studying medicine. I don't bother with that. Like, you know, i'm just really good right in prescriptions, but I don't know what was actually look good for your health, you know.

So politicians, all the concern abo is winning debates like you influencing legislation. But somebody said, could you explain what justice or explain to me what's an interest society? And when he asked them these questions that way, I don't know.

I hadn't really thought about IT. So this was this concern with the south that is all about appearances in the sacrifice, truth. But he had to kind of love, hate relationship with me. You like to get to hang around them. You know, he thought he said some interesting things, but they didn't really think they clear enough about what they were saying.

I guess another part of IT that I think is very relevant today as the softies found that the southeast would give speeches and they will teach people maxims, I bet, like watching a youtube video or or getting kind of rose for life from modern self improvement export, right? And so because he thought that was basically too passive, he thought there are no rules that are onna apply across every situation in life. Basically, what's much more in your interest is learning how to think for yourself and to be able to question things and spot exceptions to general rules and principles.

So that's a hard or it's a more kind of a less tangible concept for people. That's where the psychology method comes in so times. So we need to learn how to think for our sales question things more deeply, not just cannot memorize these phrases that we're getting from office.

Do you think it's kind of ironic that one of security fundamental principles is that you must think for yourself. And your book is called how to think like occurs. How to think like security, which is how to think for yourself, is circular.

That I love IT a Better circular. But if you want to think like so cuties, you are alone to think for yourself.

So do we know how socrates is got into philosophy if we got any idea about his upbringing or history or introduction, if he's this sort of, you know, game changing world? Everything before him was now and after him was just a replicant of of what he said before. Like, what was this? What was this come up story?

We kind of have several best of evidence. They are. So they sometimes the evidence has lot about contradictor, a lot about vague. So you know, in telling his story, we have to make some assumptions. We have to iron te some contradictions and stuff because insure takes A A little bit may see in that regard.

So the most famous explanation he gives is in plato's apology, where he says his friend Kathy went to delphi, which is a few days walkout, say, that s in the mountains is incredible place, as like something a lot of the rings. And there's a great famous temple to the god Apollo there are. And you could ask questions of the pedia.

The priests of Apollo SHE SAT on a bronze tripod, supposedly in healing these fumes. And SHE go into a trance. And the god apple possess her and spoke through her, right? And kyria, one who was another philosopher, a wheel did who people compete to bad, to respect. Or he was going to go something like he, he was a of a misfit. But he was so to his best friend.

And he went to the he was not for doing kind of eccentric c things that he went to the the delphi access and said, uh, asked, is any man wiser and security and that replied, no man is wiser and security are follow the god Apollo replied, the mind as wise and solutions. And so the weird story and the apology is the sock ties found this difficult to accept and see. He went around grilling the wisest people that he could find to try and find evidence that there was indeed somebody that was wiser in her because he didn't believe that no one was wiser in her.

But he found that when he asked great philosophers and statesman en, often they contradicted themselves. So he thought, they can't be wise. They believe that they are in the office, literally called themselves wise, made, but often on when they were questioned, that the things they were saying with full contradictions and fell apart as the security thought will look.

I come to the conclusion that, paradoxically, I don't know much either, but i'm neither of these guys. And I am wise other than them by hills breath, because at least I know that i'm not wise whether they falsely believe that they are wise, right? And so the central thrust of his method becomes punching this kind of intellectual arrogance, or concede sometimes it's called double ignorance.

So socket start, ignorance isn't a problem because I might be ignorant about medicine, but if I know what I N about, medicine might be motivated to go sult an expert, right? I might not know how to fix the in my car, but if I going to see a mechanic, I can find somebody that maybe not Better than on me. But if I believe that i'm an next about on engines or I believe them expert, earn medicines and i'm not really then in trouble because i'll be guided by my ignorance to make lots of mistakes.

So socket thought, this is one of our bike st problems in life, a Better, they're dying, cruel phenomenon like that. We believe that we know things that we do not, in fact, nor. So he found that his method was almost like a therapy for curing.

People of this intellectual can see that's a story that play details, but he must. He also says that he, he did study philosophy prior to that. Maybe for decades, he'd been studying natural philosophy and learning a bit from other philosophers. But his trademark method developed at some point in his life as a result of this weird incident where the oracle proclaims that no man is wise than him.

I, how much do you think he would have spent his time playing this game of poking holes in other people's hypocrisy? Ignorance are like shallow rta. c. That isn't sort of foundation philologically if he hadn't stepped into a world where the sophists were kind of the number one banned available at the time.

especially hard to say. I mean, I always feel like we almost need this office to have socks ties. You know, he's very much reacting to them.

I mean, maybe he would develop his method in response to the other, the natural philosophers. But IT really seems to be the southeast that inspires e him in a way, because he's so consult. And one reason for that is that the office have a lot of influence over ethie politics and socks with friends with some powerful political figures.

And so although he wasn't really directly involved in politics himself, I think he was very concerned about athens. And what is messing what? From the plutonic dialogue and from zeno one, although the referring to historical events and they refer to important figures.

I think people still, when they replace all, get the feeling that socket is just walking around in pleasant growth and sand deals can pontificating about the things. And they don't visualize him as a heavy infant treat who fought in at least three major battles of the paleo ian war. They don't imagine him as someone who survives a terrible plague.

They don't see him at the heart of a senior politics. Surrounded by these key figures is like these senior statement and living through one of the most epic wars and european history peconic. An war lasted twenty seven years, you know, and under a dictatorship, the fatty's that took over, over athons.

So his life was incredibly, you know, dramatic, basically. And his philosophy is shaped by, I think, all of these things experiences a soldier living under different political regimes, including a kind of dictator shop, that, you know, there was really brutal political process where people rounded up and executed all of these things. But definitely this first limo ge and socket zis influences and he's imparted because he's concerned about them having so much way over the etherium assembly and the political decisions are being made.

How would you describe the main principles of his philosopher world view?

Well, as we said, I mean, the cycle atic method. The core of what he's doing, in a sense, is more about the process. So some people in ancient world would have seen in wisdom of the goal of life as being the acquisition of knowledge, like, you know, having a bunch of opinions that are true basically.

And circles thought that's not real wisdom though, that's just kind of learning stuff passively. Real wisdom is more like a cognitive skill, right? So the goal of philosophy, I think, facile cities, is more a process that we engage in every day of our lives, learning to think in question things more profoundly tly.

You know, he said, the unexamined life is not worth living. You know, he thought the goal of life was to examine your life continually every day. I was like an ongoing process of personal development, in a sense, never really ended.

So the core of his philosophy, I think, is the actual method of his philosophy. And he does have doctrine in a sense. Often he doesn't state them, but he seems to be kind of arriving at them.

Um software example of famous one is in plato, s. republic. In the first book, sock is asked for a definition of justice and his friends say, well, justice is helping your friends and harming your enemies.

This was a cli and ethnic culture. IT comes from the military world where you would be helping your military allies and punishing or attacking your enemies and warfare. But IT was also applied to civilian life as well.

And security questions us from a number of different angles. But as a father recall in the republican doesn't specifically state what the alternative conclusion would be. He just kind of implies that where is later philosophies? Lutalo, for example, explicitly says soccer, believe that justice consistent in helping your friends, but also helping your enemies by tuning them into your. So the goal is basically to convert enemies into friends, not just a kind of punish our harm enemies.

So criminis concerned that if we try to harm our friends from a particular point of you first, before we are missing out, if we try to harm our enemies, first for what we're messing up in the opportunity to convert ment to our lies or friends, and secondly, we might kind of end up making the worst enemies by by puni shing them, harming them in a particlar way. And actually that's kind of what happened to opens you know there are certain more kind of aggressive hawkish political leaders that took control of the essenian assembly. They committed genocide um and that's really LED to athens downfall because athons potential allies no longer trusted them and turned against them like so their regime collapse.

I had a catastrophic military defeat necessary that can be seen as the consequence of this kinda short cited, more aggressive attitude towards ds. Other states. So you know, socket does have these doctors, and there are many, many other ones that people derive from.

What are you saying? But we should be a lot about carefull, about making the mental roles to rigid when I, his neist ones. H, you know, there's a little but different.

For instance, a sock account is anaho, and socks repeatedly said that we should eat to live rather than love to eat. You know, he thought people in general, he thought people were too much dropped by appearances, so they were too much sweet by short term pleasure in pain. And he thought we should think more carefully about whether something is actually good for our health or not, rather than just whether IT tastes nice or no doesn't taste nice.

We should be thinking about the reality of stuff beyond the appearances. Another one of his little saying that's quite well known, is that we should be, as we wish to appear here. He thought, again, we we're mislaid.

And to focusing too much and appearances, we want to appear confident, socket said that would be Better to actually become confident if you want to appear a confident, if you focus too much on faking IT, like all the appearances that, that can kind of litter most of professional for which you can be misleading IT. You could get something to the action of other people. I would be Better for you to actually become confident. Um I people came to him saying, xy, how can I make myself seem like a good friend and socks? Xy said that would be Better to become a good friend and reality.

I'm feeling a lot of this of tension between practical and abstract, especially stepping into a world. It's this sort of ritual device, people getting toast masters or improve or comedy speech coaching in this way. But they're actually assessing the underlying motivations of why they're doing this particular thing.

Yeah you know he's got that um we are what we repeatedly do. ExcEllence then is not an act but a habit. So even in the um highlighting of the importance of action, he's even taking one step further and talking about the reputation of action.

Yeah I mean sarcus felt like we were we were constantly confusing appearance in reality that's I guess I recurring thee move his philosophy and he felt the office were all about appearances and completely neglected reality so you know he's always chAllenging us to look beyond appearances by using reason.

In a sense, foxy thinks we are kind of lazy, you know, and he's always kind of encouraging us to question appearances and use reason to think a lot about more deeply about things. I'll give you a really cool example that the release is something I mentioned earlier. I mentioned lamp a is getting annoyed with his mother.

Security at the beginning of the conversation, asks his son whether his mother really cares for him and whether she's made many sacrifices to help him. And long parties actually IT mts quite easily. So now my mum, like dedicated our life, they help help me when i'm sick.

My mother nurses me like SHE spent all of her time raising me. She's done everything for me, but you just really annoyed me when she's nagging me. Well, I don't know how I could possibly put up with that.

And so cuties uses this amazing analogies um they just out this one of my favorite things, he says he says in the theater, when you're going to see A A tragedy being performed, for example, do they act us not really say things are much more vicious and insulting and hostile than anything your mother of all says he says, oh yeah of course they do but you don't on sun security they're just acting. It's not real, right? That's a difference. And socks, I says, but you just told me a few moments ago that you believe that your mother doesn't really mean you harm, but fundamentally SHE kills for you, right? So sometimes you might seem really annoying, but in jan charcoals for your laws.

And what is encouraging lamps to do is cannot look beyond the impression he has of his mother in those moments and think more about her personality is a whole animal rounded in complete way, by using reason to think about who, who is your mother really? You know, what is? What is the late nature of your relationship with? I really is more than just the I like that may be part of, and maybe something you don't like, but by focusing only on that and putting under a magnifying glass, you exaggerate, you're anger. If you think about her personality is a whole, then IT becomes just one small part way and IT becomes less upsetting. Maybe you become more able to tolerate or you mentioned .

to a couple of times assume that somebody hasn't heard about the secure tic method before what is IT hold IT work.

So it's in some ways it's tRicky to define. In some ways, it's easy like there's a lot of neons to and socket doesn't sit down at any point and say, hey, let me just explain my method to you briefly. We instead what we see is an example after example of him using his method in various different ways.

We have to kind of infair how you he's doing IT. Um but basically what he tends to do is to ask people to define a concept and it's usually a virtue. So he'll say define poetry, define courage, define justice and typically it's something that's very relevant to them.

So he's not just like we would in academic physical y now analyzing concepts you for the sake cover. He talks to military commanders about the nature of courage, for example, because it's something that they're already taken for granted in a sense, and the conversations that they are having. So you could also say he's digging deeper beneath the conversation and questioning the underlying prey mous resumption.

So you guys are talking a lot about courage. But what is courage? How do you actually define that the whole conversation is based on not? And then he will Normally think of exceptions to the rule at this, given the most famous example examples, when he's talking to lackey and naked us to etherium generals, they are encourage as standing your ground and remaining information in the face of the enemy.

And that's because the seniors depended telos c accent on the whole, the heavy infinity, which sock ties was one, and they had to fight in the relax formation. And so you, the shield, each soldier shield, would protect him, also the guy standing to his left. And if you broke formation, not only would you place yourself at risk, but you place the soldiers are fighting alongside you in great or danger as well by doing that.

So they had to really drama into these guys that they had to remain very rigid. Dly information for this fallah strategy to work. And socket says, okay, that's a good definition of courage, but is too narrow, right?

Because what about during a tactical retry, like you break from the finance formation, but you can still exhibit courage. You're no longer standing your ground in the same way though. What if you fit in the cover and then you have to charge in to the middle of the enemy rather than standing your ground? But the cover readings are a courage.

You have to defend IT differently, though. He says, what about the spartans? They fit in, find information, but they also sometimes charged into the enemy, like covered.

We do we? But they are known for their courage. So you won't say that they like courage. You'd have to tweet your definition a little. But so he starts this conversation going usually by creative thinking and being able to come thinking outside the box and coming up with.

So he you know again, like he, he's not following a formula here as much as using a skill like he's thinking right and is coming up with brainstorming examples what bit less what but less what bit less right it's like he's saying, yeah but okay, courage could be standing your grown but what this but this scenario in civilian life you'd have to defend IT differently. And so he constantly chAllenges the inter of the person who speaking about to revise our definition and think about deep and deep level. And he doesn't always arrive at clear conclusion.

Often he doesn't. His dialogues, often london aai a and greek h, which is determined that we use to mean a sort of confusion, are welder. And right? So people walk away, and some people hated that, but the people would walk away from thinking, I cannot feel like I know less know.

Then I did the beginning in the conversation, but in a good way, because maybe I was too rigid in my thinking, and I was assuming that I knew things that I didn't really understand. At least now I realize that does more to justice than helping your friends and harming your enemies. Others more encourage than just standing your ground and remaining the best formation.

And maybe i've kind of aspire closer and closer to the center of the meaning of these concepts. So in the process of doing that he had often point out contradictions and people thinking um he said, what you're saying knows seems to clash with something you said a few minutes ago so he was very sharp at noticing this. And you know, I think one of the ways that that can help us today actually is there's a particularly type contraction that security with some things point out a moral contradiction.

I'll give you another example where where he's talking to a teenage boy, and at a lesson boy does the guy cocreate bless that comes to him who is the son of one of his best friends, cro and creole. As says socket, could you introduce me to some people that would be really good friends to have an athenian society? He's asking you for help, networking, wordly, right and sexy. Say, sure.

Like how would you define a good friend? And chrbs says, well, they come and visit you in your seat. Maybe you'd lend your money of your, maybe if you are being a Better of order that they take to one side gently kind of explained to you that you should change your behavior and stuff like that.

So quite easily he's able to kind of define what a good friend is. But then circuit, he says, well, how many of these quality do you exhibit yourself and ability like, well, and not many. Like, know, zero, the socket.

I says, haven't again, haven't you got this back to front? You're kind of asking me to present you to these people as if you would be a good match, as if you would be a good friend to them. But the bone to figure if you don't have any of these quality, then they won't trust me as a matchmaker of friends know and they're onna lose faith and use a friend as well.

You should have come to me and ask me how you could become a good friend yourself, right? How you could improve yourself. So you're exhibiting a double standard.

You applying one standard to all the people in times of friendship, but a different standard or no standard to yourself. And this is a kind of moral hypocras y, if you like. So often soccer is joining people's attention to the fact that they're exhibiting moral double standards.

And we do similar things in modern cobo aaf therapy as well. Sometimes people think philosophico ethics can be quite subtle and quite new on, and often is. But you know, in many cases we can make moral progress.

I think just by not being accurate, you know, the one thing that the majority of people agree on is that you shouldn't contradict yourself morally, you know. And if you're saying one thing and doing another, like if you are playing a double standard, most people agree with something wrong, they are like. And it's reason that helps us to spot these contradictions and attempt to resolve them. So this is a simple way, I think, that many people can make in progress in terms of minority and self improvement just by questioning their own standards in the way that socket teaches these .

Young men to IT seems like that the consistent trend or theme or perhaps outcome of this secure tic method, which is discontinuity inconsistency hypocras y um poorly clarified independence and foundations and definitions of what's going on. Uh but yeah, I can also imagine simply by asking questions and continuing to refine, you may avoid untruth and perhaps by avoiding untruth, move yourself close to two truth.

But it's very much a sort of do IT yourself paint by numbers security isn't coming in and saying, well, this would be a Better approach. He's saying, I think there may be a problem with this. So I can quite imagine why people can find them annoying because he's basically just permanently poking .

holes in everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think there are a number. Let me of.

Explain what he's doing, I think, from a different perspective, from a more psychological perspective, right? And in doing that or maybe make is relevant, submit more apparent to modern self improvement, so the body of research and modern psychotherapy and psychology, and in the field of coping in stress, the there we we can analyze different coping strategies that people use to do with stress, right? And these are the strategies that you find in self help books and self improvement books, right? So maybe breathing, exercise, his relaxation technique, commentive therapy, positive affirmations, positive visualization, even things like avoidance, just running away from the situation, you know, are accessing other results, social support, getting someone else to help you in a situation. thanks.

There's like lots of different ways you could potentially call with anxiety, depression, stressful situations, right? But no one of those coping strategy works every time. And the people that exhibit the most emotional resilience and are most able to recover from my anxiety, depression, are generally found to be once have something, we coping flexibility. So they're able to choose intelligently between whether to confront a situation is actively or whether to back away from and resign themselves to with emotional acceptance.

And I like saying, knowing when to pick your battles and things like that, you know, are knowing when it's Better to distract yourself from pain or discomfort and when IT be Better to to address the cause, or when IT would be Better to confront, adapt to the experience and then to accept that, you know, and by questioning, I mean, what we do in modern cognitive therapy, like often will faint almost with every client. You're find that they have coping strategies. You've just made up themselves or coping strategies you've got from the internet or from self felt books, right? And many in many cases, theyll be using these more adaptively in a way that contributing to the problem and making IT worse, usually because they're doing into rigidly or they're using them as a kinda cle form of avoidance, there's actually contributing to the problem.

And so one of the first things we might do is with sometimes got the functional analysis. So we'll get people to very carefully wee up the prison coins of the strategies they're using and this kind of thinking things through the cognitive therapy technique is similar in some ways, I think, to using the cycle tic method to question your definition of justice for instance or so. Cuties would also um i'll give you an example of a specific technique in zenana.

Hon and scholes like classicists never mentioned this because I like you know as a psychotherapist looking at the cyclic dialogues I noticed i'm doing psychological stuff that a philosophy a classis might not even in a late register. So there's a ban phone for security speaks to another Young guy um in a shop in the arga and this is is A A self film. Junker y as we call today, he literally has a collection.

He's got the finest st collection in athons of self improvement books. He says he collects the maxims of wise men and he's trying to improve his character so that one day he can become A A great statement. And he wants to understand the nature of morality or justice, and socket he's questions about about the definition of justice and quickly shows that he he doesn't really understand that, contradicting himself.

And this guy thinks, what I ve been reading all these books and try to memorize what they say, but when someone tries to get me to explain the meaning of these concepts, I just can not fall apart because he's never really thought things through very deeply. He's parroting stuff is learning passively. So cuties draws a diagram, which I immediately recognized because we do all time and cognitive therapies.

He draws two columns, right? Probably in a wax tablet or something, right? And at the heading, at the top of one colum, he writes injustice. And at the top of the the column he writes justice and he says, I want you to get up, brainstorm definitions of what's justice that you want to be, adjust individual my and bring some examples of injustice.

So if the injustice he comes up with things like lying, uh, stealing um stuff like that, right obvious examples of injustice and then case does exactly the same thing that we mentioned the earlier he brainstorms exceptions he said, okay, lying, what if you are no way to general and you're lying to the enemy in order to season in a military campaign, is that unjust or would you consider that to be just to the circumstances? So Young I you the demis his name he says, well, that's different. That's an exception, right?

Soco says, what if you're a parent and you're trying to give your kid medicine, but they won't take IT unless you hide IT in the food? Is that injustice or would that seem like it's just, he said, well, as different as well and this this uses another example usually well, no in philosopher says, what if your friend was and they come to you and say, where did you hate my dear? Why would you lie to them? I am pretend that you don't know or would you say, guess I have this over the you know, take um and he is very different as well.

These are kind of unusual ircam stances the ache says what maybe then does more nuance to this idea that justice consisted in always telling the truth and never lying. Like you seem to think that there's more to than that. There's other perspectives, right? And this technique of drawing to columns we can literally do on coping strategies to get people to think, when would you practice mainly m and what might be the pros and cons of doing that? When made you try to fake IT to make IT.

When might that be a bad idea, right? When may IT be a good idea to always speak your mind? Total of people be a scarab. And when may IT be a Better idea just to keep your more shot, why in some situations, in no way to fight your battles and so on.

And it's cognitive flexibility and copying flexibility, the ability to view situations from different perspectives and the ability to choose intelligently between different types of coping strategies that really constitute, in the same way that I said before, the wisdom is more like a skill rather than just a bunch of ideas. Are onions that you could hold. I think something that's messing from a lot self model, self improvement literature.

And the risk is then that people get techniques that work in some situations, but then they Carry on using them rigidly in situations where there no longer working the bike firing, i'll give you an example, right? May any take any self help technique is gonna in some situations. Main fulness is some tech ques are more robust than all those.

Main fulness is a really used for strategy, right? But for instance, clients who have held anxiety and are constantly scanning their body for symptoms like just not I think I notice a real sensation of my chest, right? Practicing more from this, in some cases, could actually just excess or b or hate.

Ten, the food is threat. Mona train for system is basically in pink. Too much attention to every slight twin, their body, right? Social anxiety, like we know that one of the main college of social xiety hate and self focus attention.

So in fact, many self help techniques that people try to use and social situations actually increase the self focus attention, right? So people with social society will typically do things like trying to stand ups like tall and straight, the back and look people in, right, because they feel like that makes sense. That should make them more confident.

But what they don't realize is often in heightens the sale focus. Attention are naturally, and that contributes to social anxiety and IT also increases the government of load. So they're more likely to canna feel awwad because they're trying to walk in true government at the same time, right? But gain people to think about the throws and coins of these different strategies when made a big good idea, when I made a potentially backfire.

Is there a good way of doing mainly lace? And maybe there's a bad way of doing mainly lace in some situations? That's the wisdom that allows people at the ancient floors you also to save, you could give somebody a the problem of teaching moral precepts, or like coping strategies.

You know, would be that if you give a piece of advice of maximum to someone whose wise, they'll use IT wisely, but if you give IT to someone who's foolish, they're probably going to use IT foolishly, right? If you give coping strategies to somebody whose severe anxiety there, they're more likely just just test on the into form of avoidance. If you're not careful that the people who have the most of your problems are the ones that almost late misuse the type of strategies that we get in self help books, basically. So I what's often missing, I think, is this make a scale, if you like, or being able to choose between strategies and figure out their prison coins, which is actually one of the first things we Normally doing because of therapy.

Yeah, very pathetic by socrates to be able to see that out front. What was the organon organon?

That's one of book.

Yes, yes, I saw, I saw that. And this sort of interesting pivot towards, you see, with these two different people, that one is focus very much what seems to be practical. But then as this .

begin of a trajectory .

toward philosophy being involved in politics, philosophy being involved in sort of statesmen ship, are with logic, solicit, m deduction, ethics, stuff like that. Um why did socrates not get involved in politics during his time? Or did he? How much did he?

Yes, I know. Like generally speaking, he didn't get directly involved in politics. There was one incident where he was elected to a kind of a cheeta overseeing a trial and and socrates took up principled stand supposedly in a situation where are the mob working of being for the blood of a bunch of a senior generals that were on trial um and he almost was executed as a result of doing that but after that I think he said the lucifer was to get involved in politics I just stand up being killed you know because uh you know the standard I would take would just you know an an well I I one of our sources suggest his thinking was he just with the last very long, and IT would be more constructive of him to kind of critique all attacks from the sideline. Es, as that we are, rather than trying to get directly involved.

You do you not say something about Roger stone? Was there not some similarities between him and Roger stone?

I think that some similarities ties in differences between him and register. But it's funny. And register is one of these people that are published books on rules, but is got to rules like his book.

And some of them are the opposite of what sarcastic would say like rogier one I think it's failed to say is a man who would probably character himself is being quite fixated on the idea of revenge. That came through critically only from his book um he at no point in in his book this again does he ever really discuss what he thinks is in the interest society. He spent a lot more time discussing how much he hates his political opponents and how he uses protect as a means to get back at them.

Interestingly, I guess he has what you recall of with a small sea, like a very cynical attitude towards politics, is very different from the way that someone likes. OK would have seen that. And socrates, I think, would be a critic of this idea of the revenge, a rational motive first to have.

Um so there are something you know, I try to have an even handed approach to understand again, like waking up the present coins. I look at book and I thought other bets of this that cannot makes instant relation to ensure philosophe. Another bets of that that seem likely might be the opposite. He says one of two things about resilience. I think his phrases tuning chicken shit into chicken sit, or something like as the way he puts a very artsy yeah he has this idea um that we should adapt to a verio sy and develop emotional resilience which cannot says a little bit late history ics but was messing from I guess he has some ideas about emotional resilience but he doesn't have a does he doesn't seem to see any connection between the and social virtue for example like or justice like he sees politics. I think then i'm through a much more making alien lanes as far as I I can tell.

Well, how would you summarize uh, what secret is believed about what a good life consisted of, or how to achieve a good life? Did he talk about that?

Yeah, I mean, again, the first thing he would do a lot late. For example, when he stocks that get you the demos, he asked them that very question. But he encourages him to think IT through for himself, right? So you think demis, a Young that's been reading, lose itself from provest books.

And he says, okay, like, so what is a good life? Actually, ucd says, where is the first place that I should begin applying philosophe incident? Invocate says he are like, the first thing you should do, start by asking yourself what the goal of life is and what constitutes flourishing of you.

Diana, like, so basically, what's good? forest? Sm, what's bad for in life? And you demand, says, well, okay, so stuff like a noble birth whale status, you know, having a nice house, like being healthy, having lots of friends are all good, like generally people think that that contain is good fortune and flourishing in life.

And then circuit is basically goes through the list and says, but each one of these things could potentially be bad. There's another dialogue by plato where he provides a much quero counter argument where he says, okay, like, so start with wealth is the easiest example. Wealth in the hands of somebody whose wise and virtuous would allow them to do more wise and virtuous things.

But if you gave that big pale of money to somebody who's fulish and vicious, it's just going to allow them to do more fulish in vicious stuff, right? In the same would apply to status. And actually most of these goods, as they are known in the same similar practical advantages or opportunities you have in life.

What really matters is is how you make you some of them, whether you use them wisely or whether you use them foolishly so then doesn't that suggest that the only thing that intrinsically good would be practical wisdom or moral wisdom? Yeah um because how you use other thing, even the disadvantages you have, even poverty and sickness, might be used well by somebody who's profoundly wise, right they may develop more resilient as a result. They may learn from the experience, for instance.

Um but somebody has finish and vicious will use even every advantage in life badly so as by this kid of questioning method socket ties gets his interlocked as the usually Young adult Young men just in parking on adult life, basically to realize that the things that most people assume to be the goal of life like reputation and material success and stuff like that, aren't really intrinsically the most important thing in life. But what matters more is your ability to use these things will, which is something that the attention of neglected did not really discussed. And the sock, he says, that's what we should be talking about.

How do you use these things well? And so the goal of life are flourishing would consist in a kind of practical wisdom, of moral wisdom, and also in the realization, the the prevAiling values of our society. I came back to front, and the things that everybody is LED to value, that consumerism, m and celebrity culture and all that kind of stuff IT, is those are replaced. Values basically isn't .

not interesting. That is the values of our society talking about this thousands of years ago, then being the same values that everybody is still being sweig. Ed.

by now I wonder about that. You know, I think this guy be a reason for that. And I don't pretend to know exactly what IT is, but the danger of lust has had some answers.

I believe that part of us, if you imagine when you're born, is a child, you can of a blank slate to some extent in, you know, you you start attracting with adults before you can even speak, let alone reason. And so you you just, Emily, what you see other people doing is a small child. And I think IT partly comes from the fact that we model our values and other people's behavior.

So as a child growing up, you think you take a look, you think, what's all this meant to be about? You think, well, everyone else seems obsessed with money and property and status like. So you just couldn't naturally fall into that .

if you're not careful. You think we are the progeny of a secure tic societies, a culture eventually just a few thousand years down the .

line where yelly, where I think we're just a productivity. The fact that we can really understand each other deeply, I think, is the problem that we are basing our values and just observing other people to professor behavior. So for example, we might see you use a little kid, you might see your dad working really long hours and earning money, you know, to appear off the mortgage and stuff.

And if you're not careful, you might think, I guess, I guess working hard than any money is like is what life is all about but your dad might think i'm doing that to care for my family, for example, like because I can set up being a good father late to be what what my life to be about. So we don't necessarily observe the values that are driving other people's behavior and territorially we I think so we fall into the trap. I, this is my belief, or over and over again, because we are not able to see and say people's hearts like we end up with a superficial understanding of their values, right? And it's not only all of the course of life as we are developed, the ability to reflect on our values, question them more deeply.

We start to think, why are we doing all this stuff? why? Why are buying a house? Why, you know, why am I working long else? Why is for something deeper? Why is in order to be a good person and a good parent and a good husband and stuff later? And I I think one of the things that can help us achieve that realization and question the prevAiling values of our society is a death like, you know, because many people, I think, for whatever reason, on their death bed, when they look back over the cost their life, think is IT really, is IT really worth spending your life just trying to earn as much money as possible.

Was that what, you know, retrospect, my life should have been a boat, you know, was like rating a best selling book or something like, really the most important thing. Does that seem trivial in retrospect, when you you've going to a few days left to live or something like that? But I mean, if you're lucky, maybe you have a brush with there theory on and survive and that changes your perspective and that liberates you from these assumptions that we all have or sometimes when you're beaked, like, you know, I lost my father when I was quite Young and I thought I D to be honest, that really shook me and made me came a question, what's the point of all of because I saw him.

He died of lung and like, he was bedding for a about a year. So I had a Better year disturb served my father dying slowly and think he seemed to be going through this process of questioning what his life had stood for. And so when I was like thirteen, fourteen years old, that can I made me, thank you.

I don't want to end up like that way at the the end of my life thinking maybe i've spent my time and energy and in the wrong way. So these things and also something, I think having children and looking at your kids and thinking what you want for them and what values you want them to have, if we approach that in the right way, can help us to gain, say, and start to question what our values are. But if we don't do that, we just look around and thank everybody is obsessed with money and fame, you know, we end up entering into the rat race, chasing around off of that, then one day end up in your death bed.

The doctors tell you you've only got in a few weeks left and you think you look back on, you think, what huge waste time. A lot of that was like, you know, maybe I have got like, you know, millions of dollars in a bank account, but it's not you can take IT with you. You know, did I really do anything that we're fail in retrospect? So that's why ancient philosophy is kind of obsessed with this question is definitely the other thing that can help us would be reading about philosophers who contemplate the problem of our own mortality. Like that's why place as apology is so influential. Because IT depict socket standing in court, knowing is about to be executed.

Can you tell us the the story of the end of soccer life? What happened? What was the build up? Why did IT occur?

That is slightly long and convoluted story um for some reason like he was brought to trial, charges were brought against him so any ethie law other citizens could see you and he was brought to call under charges of empires ty and corrupting the youth like that .

he didn't believe .

in the traditional gods basically and these are standard charges that were used against intellectuals basically you know there was nothing new but if you were, if you were too clever, other people in authors would say, you're corrupting the youth, right? And if you question things.

use for politically incorrect .

blast for me. Yeah, engaging blast for me as well. If you start to question. You know some traditional religious ideas and stuff like that. So it's cannot like stock charge. In a way, there are many reasons why some people think socas had set in political views.

He also had friends that became controversial and ethie society um and so his association with certain inflatable figures might have been power over and IT may also be that he went around humility, powerful people where he went out to politicians and said, can you define the nature of justice and they play, I don't know why, and not made them embarrass and that made them look stupid in front of the fans and followers and stuff. And so they wanted for all of these reasons I mean, socket, his execution was all over determined. Why there were multiple reasons why people wanted him dead.

And some of IT was propaganda like there were there was, like I mentioned earlier, there was a play about him, that character told him, so socket in the trial says, a lot of you guys, there were five hundred people in the jury. And he says, most of you will know me mainly through this play, like I would be like you. You try by media, right? So i've never met most of you, but you've probably seen this play that makes me out IT to be the storrie corrupt, to do intellectual right, like a charleton and stuff.

So that's what you'll be judging me based on. And he stands up, he was meant to big for mal C. N. core. He stands up in one of the first things he says as he refused his military service and to paraphrase, basically says, I won't know in front these battles in face death on behalf of baths to defend the walls of the city. And you guys told me that was honnor able.

Now i'm standing in core, facing death, because I believe in the practice of philosopher is a way of improving the people that live in the city was appointed, defending the walls of the city, of the people that live a corrupt, right? So some of you think this is ridiculous, that i'm willing to risk my life in core, but you praised me for risking my life in the military. And this is actually much more important to me, right?

As how he kind of starts off his defense and in a way, and then he goes on to talk about how he's not afraid of dying and all this kind of stuff and you kind of reasons that through, but he doesn't back from the offer. He is very unapologetic in platoon's apology and and so the jury condemn him to death because of what iphone called his big talk and core like he was a he was they thought he would drink his family and and he would have weeping in front because that was what was Normal. But right from the very begin the trial, his family won't even present.

So he made IT clear that he wasn't gonna for malthus before even began speaking. And he basically gives them a lot. And philosophy he can is on n core, doing the very thing that is on trial form and core right like everything about about soccer was paradoxical le but the other argument again, as many different aspects he said she's like appealing the lives of a onion back.

The other things anaho says circus was like seventy one. Seventy two was pretty old fortini an society. And you know, the kind of implication in some the dialogues is he he thought, started to lose my faculties.

Maybe i'm get are becoming more of a burden to my family. He'd reached a point where he thought, rather than trying to kind of just keep extending my life and definitely will decline, I just go out with a bang and make this huge statement. And he became a matter for philosophy bit, say what you will about circuses, IT work, and even to the whistle talking about him. And he became an icon, two generations of Young philosophers that follow him.

You think you be less impact for if you hadn't died in that way.

one hundred percent like he would still have had some impact. But I, I mean, the most famous thing about soccer nation world is play his apology in the way his noble day, when epithet the famous storied pho sopa, who was teaching, like four hundred years later, right? So, you know, like that's socket is ancient history to epithets.

He's the most famous from epic to the most famous, caught in all of stores. M, as people are not upset by events, but by their opinions about them. But no one of a course what he says next, in the following sentence, he says, for example, death is not intrinsically terrible, because if I were, security would have been afraid of dying.

And he wasn't right. So this is an important argument that you find insolence, ties. But it's really highlighted in history ics, which is, you know, we use a similar canoa strategy and cognitive therapy.

If somebody depressed are angry or frightened by something, one of the first questions you would Normally ask is, does everyone else feel the same way about that? I mentioned lamport is getting angry with his mom so that he says, the other people of finger mom unbearable, are the near the certain people view him differently. Sock himself, for example, view IT very differently. He got tnav by zanth of people.

He didn't really bother him, right? So one of the first questions we asking corbon to therapy, our other perspectives available, right? Is this the only way of looking at things? Or you make you potentially see IT definitely APP t to his main example of that, he go straight for the jogues right he says we're not upset by things but by opinions about them like even when IT comes to death, some people don't scared of dying actually you know lot of people don't scare of dying right um said there are many people I found is one of the weird things.

Particularly Younger people often feel inconceivable that someone wouldn't be afraid of dying but a lot of elderly people are resigned to their own death because he'd been bereaved many times and maybe you've had many health skills and so over the space of decades, in some cases, if not all, you speak to elderly people in the say, i've got, i've got over, well, you know, five years and years to get used to the idea of dying, so, you know, doesn't really frighten me anymore. Some melder ly people are terrified the day, but others are surprisingly resigned to IT. So again, someone seventy two facing his trial, he's an older guy living in a society where where there's not a lot of medicine, you know I think he's he's a lot to with perfectly resign and live through many dangerous is hard to imagine how many brushes with death.

So parties attired, right? I mean, they try to execute, I think, a bit three of times altogether under different political resumes. You know, he was involved in battles where thousands of people were killed, their own home.

And he lived through a plague, you know, that killed tens of houses of people in. So he was a guy who was well accustom to the fragile ity of his own existence. right?

I mean, we live a very ship, very, very shelter existence by comparison to that. But it's interesting the epic text goes straight for that example. Look at he's he has played as apology in mind.

He's like, you want to know what that means to realize that it's your opinions, shape your fear. Look at the example authorities and how he was unafraid even of being executed in court. That's your prayers ate that.

And that was the cardinal example. I'm two Young philosopher. The ancient .

world it's wild to think of somebody is so steadfast in their beliefs, especially given the fact that almost all of their career was spent highlighting hypocras y so IT would have been a odd curtain call had he have at the final. Imagine how much more tonight, ed, his entire philosophical career would have been had he have done the liable, begging pharmacy on the floor doing have changed a lot, a lot. I think about how people perceive his work.

And the crying, which is one of the dialogue take place when he's in prison. He is import for about a month awaiting execution. And his friends say a letter, we could just bribe the guards really easy and get you here and stuff.

He talks about this fact that I would be, and IT would make him ridiculous in his own eyes like if he know behaved and consistently with his values you know and that seems as more um I mean allegedly in the fight door, which is the the last dialog chronologically when soccer drinks the actual him lock his, they bring the poison to him and his friend cryo, like his childhood frame to grew up in the same sub of of title, says to, um some people don't drink the poison straight away. I mean, I think you're actually allow to have a fano meal. He had lots of friends around them.

M, when he was been executed, if you can imagine that was the number. Yeah, was like, a lot were they? There are about ten or twenty people that so they come and visit and every day.

And in the present, we are kind of scenario. But they all gathered drone, and his family and his wife brought his kids. He had a baby is we are sold. All we know is santhi was Carrying one of the children. Think that kind of implies that .

he was a baby .

or years. So they say, you don't have to drink IT right away. And he says, IT would seem ridiculous of me, and I feel ridiculous. Sm, on eyes that can not try. And eco, another, you know, half of an hour is like i've been here for a month waiting to drunk.

He is, well, i'm not going to do with another half a day, you know, like, so that was his supposedly his thinking was already like i've prepared myself for this. I just i'd feel like a coward and I would seem inconsistent of me in ridiculous if I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. right.

Maybe I could declare before after looking. So I really have been from i'm going really drink IT. So the thing you've mentioned .

the stokes a couple of times i'd like to talk about is sort of enduring influence on them and links between two. But the first person that comes to mind for me is sanka, somebody for whom a proclamations and fantastic contributions to thought in philosophy staff were repeat. But in his private life, when the rover met the road, so to speak, he was much more valuable. He was playing these sorts of games with political games and backbiting and and sucking up to people and so on and so forth.

That's controversially yeah say that has always been a device of and controversial figure. And some ways he he became piled to socks. S had A A friend and possibly a lover called also by these who was, you know, one of the most infantile stateman.

He was appointed the commander and chief of the athenian military, one point in the most senior statement. And authors like, almost like an emperor over the. What was evolving and who had evolved in internet, ian empire, and he was like one sock, his best friends and closest associates.

So his relationship without sub dies, like trying to get him to be a Better relevant stuff, is a bit like sanka and his relationship with but senator, I mean, it's IT wouldn't be some people will find this controversial. Although we think of santa is a state philosophy, he was famous at primarily as an author, not as a philosophy teacher. He probably didn't teach that much pho sophy.

He mainly trained in rec. So in some regards, senate was more like a latten office than a philosophy. The office soften quoted philosophy, like they made speeches out of things, but they didn't attempt to live in a chord with IT.

And the way that the stoics are secreted did so sica somewhere in between. IT may be that towards the end of his life, he embraced philosophy more fully. I think earlier in his philosophy is more something he used to become a famous author.

He became famous by writing consolation letters using stoicism to people that had been buried that were wealthy, influential, because he was like a self, help grow to the rich and famous and roman society. And that's how he ended up becoming an an adviser to you all. So he was a fear of the really was compromised by that in a number of ways. He was nearly right hand man neither was like a death a dictator um and he also route speeches defending neuro in the sea um and trying to I mean ridiculous I think like saying that he was virtually a philosopher king and that he his hands were unstained by blood and alas cano .

so that couldn't really imagine .

socket saying no these sock never solid himself in that way um those a guy, the marketer releases reti c teacher, we have his private letters and Marcus is talking to him about sanka. We don't see what market will. Unfortunately, we only see a front. S, replies, front can't stand.

Ca, and he died in a few generations earlier, but I think is probably he doesn't like his writing style, but he says looking for perils of wisdom and sank ratings would be like someone dropping around in the bottom of a, trying to dig a few silver coins out of the filth, right? Which is, I can, I want the kids they call a sec born, right? There's only something that another office could have come up with, right? Is as an insult.

But I think what he means is that sanka and in rome would be known more than today for his political speeches defending neo. And we have a couple of examples of those, like we have unclaimed y for example, which is this letter to neo that was probably made public. That kind of puts neuro in something of a pair.

Distal also tries to improve his character and teaching more clients y or mery. But the same time he praises him as a great ruler like, which is ridiculous. He was a tired, and at the same time that santa was defending europe and propping up his regime, there were other stocks that were fighting against neo and opposing him in the senate that called the story c opposer.

sons. And several of them died or were excised, defying, defying neu epithet us, who was kind of on the perelman y of this, because epi C2Came cam e fro m the nex t gen eration, but he was a slave owned by neos greek secretary, a guy called up a data who was perhaps also neuroses body guard. Uh, according to one source, you certain ly very, very close to neuro epic teachers, idolizes historic opposition and never mention senna once. So he clearly felt those with the stoics from that generation that he looked up to. And senate, I was seen, even by other stores at the time, as a guy that he had maybe compromised himself morally.

What is the truth that we know about whether socrates was really ugly or not?

That's actually a contested point. There's a really cool book that came out recently by arman danger, a classicist um who wrote a big success in love that I really like this kind of speculative biography, a soccer and he claims that soccer was probably not as ugly as he's made out to be in the particularly Younger and life. He may have been quite a very well and attractive guy, but I mean socket ties.

His friends describe him as walking like a pillow on, having eyes like a club, having a face like a turpio fish and being bolding and pot. valid. So, and he looks like a SATA as well.

We are told, like when those gonna go, I very kind. So those are his friends, right? that. And so I guess it's probably the etherium culture.

They were gna ribbing him up but and stuff, if you go to authors today, there's a famous star socket, a modern statue of outside the university where he's incredibly buff like I mean, he definitely looks like he's been lifting weights, but that's a modern representation of them the ancient scuttles we man, you know, it's more of a canal IT was seen as a bit of a presented as more of A A comedy character are almost so yeah, he makes fun over. And then a symposium, security jokes. And he says, I think if we had a beauty contest, I would win.

And everyone kind of roles about laughing at this IT seems ridiculous to them. But he then that leads into him having a conversation, but about how they defined beauty. And, you know, he starts to question whether, you know, beauty is actually something that comes from a person's character, you know, and he thinks he he says he's confident that he would went on those terms based friends still thinking about riddles of zena zena, to his credit, says, you know, you learn more about wise men by seeing them their leisure.

I believe that how he begins to have a drinking party and he presents circus as the guy, he's quite witty and humorous, right? So he says things where he he success with the type of guy that would say something to you and you think, is he joking? Is he serious? And the answer is yes and no. Why he's kind of joking in serious, he's kind of both joking in serious at at the same time. Often, I feel.

was the I can't remember who IT was from that era of philosophers. I seem remember the story of one of those philosophers complaining that every time they went to dinner, I had a party, the people got too drunk. And one of the solutions to people getting too drunk, we would be to reduce the size of the cups when you could make the size of the cup smaller with that.

Yeah, I think that is a phone 7 position if or might be in place to symposium my and one of the symposium like he says he recall and they do IT。 He says he asked to bring out smaller cups and he says if we use smaller dri drink drink he .

in the quality of the versions.

he says, alcohol, I think this is a simple. And he says, alcohol is like watching a plan. Because if you don't give IT enough, then I cannot travels up and dies.

Like, but if you give IT too much, then IT IT will ks, and IT was this is the effect that I think wine has a conversation at a dinner party. You've got to find just the rate levels so that people lose up and you have a so he wasn't completely in favor of abstinence. He thought if the right amount of wine was conducive to a good force of conversation in a dinner party.

didn't he stand in one place for, yeah, a day at one point 都 会有？

No, no, no, no, no. I know what I do. But now he tested for twenty four hours.

He were all from a sunrise one day to sunrise the next day, and put today, are in the middle a battle? No, what would not in the back like? While they were precedence, the city way in the north of greece, he were told that he just throws.

And the other, some of the other soldiers camped to see him could say they were like, is he gonna really gonna and here, or a bear foot late in the cold? Like they were glad they were having date, so not or something. And they watched many eat in the morning.

I believe plato says that he said a prayer to the rising sun, which may have been associated with good Apollo. But one of the themes that runs through the dialogues as sock is association with the god Apollo. There's a debate bet whether Apollo was associated with the son early.

I think he right. So IT may be socket. Saw this on as an ebola ment of the gora's. O is the kind of the peach on gorda philosophy. And IT was the priestess of Apollo who said, no man is wiser than than circa ties. And I was outside the temple of Apollo that says, going off I see out on or know itself, which is, you know, the statement maxim that became a kind of theme for the psychotic tic method, in a way, is pursuing self knowledge. They, he was in the habit of the player tells us he he used to regularly just freeze, meditate, winner trance.

What's the can you dig into the node itself? Yeah I mean.

IT comes up again and again in different dialogue. It'll tell you something really cool about us. There's a dialogue that I think is authentically attributed to play to, but some scholar of question IT doesn't matter in a way, somebody route, like thousands of years ago, so that they called the frustrating ideas that about the security having a dialogue with this great statement.

I mean else by someone said recently on twitter, they should make up a movie about other ideas. He has one of the most dramatic and colorful and exciting you lives and he was socs is no campaign N A soccer safe life battle? no.

I mean, honestly, you can. His life is so cinematic is like a huge pic adventure story now. And this dialogue, sok, these questions, whether also ideas, is competent to become a political leader of statement, he proves to him by questioning that he doesn't really understand anything about the nature of justice, but he should.

And then this leads in a conversation about cannot fly the out turn on the itself in secrecy, said, says out about this, you know what you think that means is like, but I may I think that I know myself, but so says what's not like, just like knowing the name of something. It's about really understanding IT was this is how I understand that and then he says, often you get these remarkable metaphors are images in ancient letter on this is one of my favorites socky says that self knowledge is like an ee that sees itself. right? Is the ee that sees itself he said, it's like the god said that you are instructed your eye to see itself.

When he says that the mind should know itself, he says, something about is, how can the eyes see itself and also about later, I guess, look in the mirror and so he says, well done. So how would the mind know itself by analogy and the how surprises? I guess you'd needs some kid of mara for your mind.

I don't know how that would work. And security basically implies, because he's often about vegan, about things, he's his engaging est question and other method. DAllen is giving a letter.

So he basically implied, how is the engaging in philosophical dialogue? A conversation with other people is a marathon soul. And he understands that we are biased.

I mean, he was again warehouse ad of his time regard. So, and by the way, is another problem for model self help, right? So there are many problems with self help.

One of the problems with self help as a self par right? The person, in essence, the person least qualified to help you like is your, because I don't know if you know that that does actually research that shows us, right? I'm going all over the play, right? But that I interview you recently, a guy called eager growth man who you should speak to, right?

He is a professor at the university of waterloo who does research on the nature of wisdom, right? And he has research ched, that shows, that confirms the suspicion that we all have, that we are much Better at giving other people advice than we are giving ourselves advice, right? This is a sensitive subject for psychotherapy, right? Guess all we do is give other people advice and stuff. But if you were to psychopathy apical conference, walk in the door, you would notice immediately that is full of some of the crazy as people who over meet your life.

like being able to give advice where the people is not reliable evidence that you can .

give advice to yourself. Yeah, but over a time, I think if you approach IT in the right way, and I think I has something to do with the empathy, right? If you identify, we acquired in a sense, that you you put yourself in the your shoes you amped with, you may, to put IT very simply, start to think, maybe I do some of the things that they do to, right, maybe by helping them to see through their own mistakes into trouble, shoot them.

I can kind of indirectly learn something about myself, right? But we're Better at giving other people advice. IT has been proven by professor grimm's research, then we are giving us else advice. And security seems to realize that this is partly why he thinks engaging in force of coal dialogue about the most important questions in life, as he puts IT IT, is so important. This provides the best meal why he can imagine for learning about our own soul, our own mind, coming to to know ourselves, knowing australians and weaknesses are our limitations and so on.

There's another technique that he kind of uses, I think the professor grossman has done to say out chon I may be worth mentioning because I know people are interested in h ea growth man based on his observations, based on his research that a study um and there are several studies like this where they asked people to keep a journal where they described ed. They have two groups and one group describes their relationship problems and so on and you know, attempting to to resolve them in the first pay person and the other group do the same thing but in the third person so rather than saying, you know, I forgot my birthday and he got really upset with me and I don't know how to make up to, well, I was say, Donald forgot his way birthday and he became really upset with him. So on the fun and right as that, I giving advice to another person, right? And they phoned, so they said once, if you make yourself do this and by, they caught a distant self reflection.

So by keeping a journal in the third person, they find that people exhibited measurably more wisdom and the advice and the solutions that they came up with for themselves. Now security does something a bit like that. He doesn't told himself that much in the fug person.

But usually in the second person, he engages in imagine rare hypothetical dialogues quite a lot. So for example, he imagined arguing with the laws of baths at one point in the critics, and the laws of often say, you start criticizing him and questioning him. So they says he imagined that the laws are saying him, socket your contradictor yourself this way, in that way. So you mistaken about that, right? But that's just an opportunity for him to critical himself in the second person and by name so with greater objectivity, basically and actually recycling some of the skills that he's home by critical other people and applying the socrat sic method to them in in real way in the flesh dialogues IT .

sounds to me like this guy is infallible. He lived to philosophy. Everything that he said was done with virtue. Very, very accurate. Where are socks tiy biggest weaknesses philosophically in your opinion?

Oh, there there are many. Um I mean, I told you he is like Jimmy hendricks, right? So h some people might look at Jimmy Henry and they might think, well, he's not know.

Maybe he's not like the technical, the best guitar rist that's ever I loved. But there's no there's still something kind of really unique about him, right? There is only everyone.

Jm intex way. There's nobody else really that kind of something is exactly like him. And so circuit is mean.

The odd thing is that many academic philosopher will disagree with most of what supermarket says, right? And they'll often think that his arguments are incomplete. The there are games and them, the not reconviction.

And I think keep soc ties realized us, but those dialogues weren't written necessarily to persuade people that they should agree with him. There are more like teaching aides that are designed looking at so cost for the mind. So they're meant to trainers to able to think through puzzles from different perspectives, right? That's why I said, you know, what we learn from of these more is the method.

And he kind of implies certain really interesting conclusions, but they're often very radical conclusions. And maybe worth mentioning, some of them say so people, usually most of us will disagree with them, but they thus, one of the ancient dialogues has socky saying, when you talk to wise person, it's like being bitten by a small insect, like a mock to or something, right? And you may not even know is when IT happens.

But then hours later of the next day, you suddenly start to edge in the spot where you and so people would say, that's what is like when you talk to so cuties like he'll say stuff. You think that's a stupid argument. Security doesn't.

It's not really convincing. IT doesn't make any sense. And then ten years later, you're still thinking about that is kind of bothering you, right? But for instance, one of the other things are I route about my book because, again, it's very interesting in relation to modern psychology.

Solar ties had this radical position that a injustice harms the pair. Patrice are more than that does the victim, and he repeats us quite a lot. So people you make people who read that think that's that's a hard view to accept.

But no one ever forget to anyone that reads the plutonic dialogues decades later will find and security keep going on about this idea that acts of injustice harm the pair appear at or more than they did the victim. And cor, he said, you guys that are put me on trial and convincing the jury to me death unjustly or harming yourselves more than your harming me. Epic tests had caused him at that the last sentence of the canadian, he says ana test in mils, the two guys brought him to trial.

Can kill me, but they cannot harm me, which is like, cry and you know, crazy. That's hard to no. First of all, the guy that believes, like, hats off to him like, you know, no wonder he was resilient.

And do we agree with him? There may be a case for IT, but it's an extreme, like you are a bet lake, you know, an extreme version of stoicism, basically. Nevertheless, in relation to modern psychology, I think is a lot we can take from IT.

So there's a body of research that shows that people who suffer from clinical depression tend to have high levels of perceived injustice, right? And we also know that anger is linked to depression, and anger is also very directly linked to the perception of injustice, right? So how could our philosophy of justice affect emotions like anger and depression? Well, if we agreed with security, right, the our own injustice does us more harm than the injustice of others, then maybe we wouldn't become as depressed when we perceive injustice in the world around us.

We may still object to, we may still defy IT, but we may respond differently emotionally. Why security was fearless and core, because he believed that the act of injustice being inflicted on I couldn't really harm him, because they they could take away his property, my, his reputation and even his life, but they couldn't harm his moral character. And that was the most important.

Think when he's death bit i'd thinking to that, maintain my integrity throughout life. You guys can take that away from me. Only I can do that to myself right now. What's true in anyone's eyes where even if they don't go as far as that time and time again, what you find in therapy when you're working with people who are very angry, for instance, is that their anger usually just a practical level, just a more harm than the things that they are angry about, right?

Maybe not in every single case, but I I strugling to think of a case where that's not true and virtually have reclined a work with when we said to and go, all the consequences of your anger, how that because, and one reason for is that anger, by is very nature in paris, our ability to think about the consequences. That's why I angry people act impulsively, right? As well known, a large quality or psychological research shows, surprise, surprise, angry people behaving impulsively.

But they do that because they're not thinking straight and they're not able to really think through an way up the consequences of their action. They tend to think very short term will do when we get really angry. Um we don't we don't become really good at no on social problem solving memory generalists.

You know we become A A kind blunt instrument. And that highlighted by the fight, they are very often angry people, a day later or weeks later, regret what they did when they are angry because now they are not angry and they are thinking about the longer term consequences in the way, the impact of what they did. So maybe some guy gets really angry.

He tells his wave to shot up, and IT gets what he wants. Maybe he does shot up right in the moment. So that seems successful, or makes me more powerful.

And then SHE devoted, right? So I destroyed a relationship, right? I mean, to caricature a lot about, but often what we strugling to do is can think about the waiter impact, right?

I think, though, about the longer time consequences of angular, and particularly in terms of relationships. For its complex anger empires, our ability to empathy with other people. And if, if, when we're get angry, we tend to engage in what's known as hostile attribution bias.

So we usually think of people as acting just out of hostile towards us. Rather, where's Normally if if I say, oh, why did that guy not send me Christmas card this year? right?

I I make a well for a bunch of possible explanations for that, right? Maybe there several reasons depending on you look at, you know, whether I feel angry. I think just cases a jerk, that's why did the right just pure hostile, right?

So we tend to have a race, monolithic and simplest understanding of other people's tips when we are angry. But that makes us rubbish social problem solving. You know, angle is really bad for, you know, maintaining any kind of healthy relationship.

So if IT is very nature IT IT means that we've pretend to underestimate the negative consequences over some therapy is easy to go. You set with people and you draw a little less than you go. You know what all ways in which anger is harming your physical health, your mental health, your relationship with other people, so that we will think about IT.

Anger tends to spread. So if I get angry, I could be watching T, V, and get really angry with some politicians that I don't like, you know? And then a ton round, you know, and a snap hing really at my cat, right? My cat has done nothing right.

It's not even involved american in any shape or form, right? But because I annoyed with some political or that on the news, whatever, i'm now also you know by associated, i'm just annoyed of my car as well because i'm in an angry frame of mind. No, and maybe i'm going to buy short my life.

I say what you want for, you know, I know, ask me later, right? Because I annoyed with, you know some a success procession, right? So anger harms our relationships, even with the people that were not initially angry with.

Yeah, we get angry with our perceived enemies, but we end up taking her and our friends as well if are not careful. So people massively underestimate the negative consequences of hanger like. And so usually in therapy, what people find that, yes, anger, your own anger, is doing you more harm than the thing the politician said on T, V, or somebody not sending your this thing. Not maybe in every case, but and really for practical purposes, in the majority cases that we end up dealing with. So he was that socrates took a way for, but nevertheless is something really interesting about the point .

that he's making. I speaking of anger and frustration, I seem to remember you saying that you thought I would be impossible .

to write this book. I thank you for why um I really did that. I thought I was impossible to write IT ah because I thought security was too complex character. The palestinian war is really annoying um just like something like three hundred greek states were involved 呢。

IT went on for twenty seven years, so the politics of in the history of saw complex, right? I thought, how can I summarize and condenser into a book and have the life of security as a philosophers, have some discussion of philosophe, enforce of good dialogue, and have some modern psychology and feed all into fifty thousand words? IT just seems like I would take, you know, three different books, right? But then I don't know how exactly I changed my mind.

But what I realized, ed, was that I could, maybe I think what I I did was I gave up trying to attempt a more academic history. And I I said from the outset, i'm going to approach this like i'm writing a movie screen play, and so will be dramatic. I'm onna make.

IT is close to historical sources as a possible can, but i'm gonna have to take two characters. And it's a points combine them together for simplicity. I'm onna have to massively abbreviate some of his arguments and just give like key select case out of them.

And i'm gonna to figure out ways this you know to kind to simplify that the history of the pill of inan war. So, you know, I am kinda surprised that I managed to compress all of them into one book. But I, you know, I thought very long and hard about how to do IT. And, you know, there was a lot of planning that want to, I think I put four times as much work into this book as I put into the proceeding. How to think like .

a roman emperor is IT. And what I mean, you're looking at second time sources, very little direct. I mean, even with that, I I learned this from a from you as well that even when we think about markets radius and how much information we have about because we ve got his direct writings and he was no peron, you prestigious and stuff like that.

But even with him, because he didn't really do that much wrong, that wasn't that much writing about him, he didn't just simply attract insufficient drama. So then you think, okay, we have this guy of whom there are significantly Better recorded people from history, and he is the well recorded version compared with the new book. I'm about the right, which is this blow. So i've got like basically why attacks of like ancient, why attap and that the best that I can go on.

Yeah, there's really frustrating things about the life of soccer. So this thing about going to delphi in the pronouncement is is presented as a key moment in his life. We've really got, no, I we don't know for certain when that happened, right? So for instance, we don't know if that happened before or after key events in his life.

And then that would changed the whole narrative. So with things like that, you just have to go. We could write an academic history where we argue about possible days, but in order to write a movie, you'd have to go, we have to pick a day.

Good pack one IT could be like one of that. Maybe three different, just choose to go in order to be able to tell the story and and that's I guess that's what liberated me as I just thought. That needs to just be approached like .

we're writing a graphic novel or what did as well, much of many literary pathways. Now I take some .

satisfaction and you know there's some more thought, just write the same, but over and over again. And I did really I don't know that I did this deliberately to a bill. Can I tell that just plays the same kind characters over and over and then you've other people who did lots of different things.

But I look back at the books that i've written that, you know, although I did actually write three books in the role, but Marks are really, there are all different genres, like ones are more of an academic history, ones a self help, but one's a graphic novel. So I have a look at the books. I've ever reply one about eight books.

They're they're all quite different from each other. Like I A filia cana stretched myself. I mean, the present coins of that are sometimes when you strike yourself and do something you have done before, you can kind of fall fat in your face and maybe you figure it's not your forty or whatever you know.

But the positive side is that how you grow like, you know, by taking a chance and doing something that you know, something you never even imagined that you'd be doing. I think that is part of IT as well. I kind of thought it's too difficult to write a book late.

This about security. And I thought will walk. You know, I just get older and less afraid of making mistakes. no. And I thought what the what that can happen, maybe i'll just mess up up and that they will be rubislaw something like, you know, I thought, yeah, I think that really just try have a good at doing IT.

I think that the thing that swinging IT for me, as I really always appropriate with this question in mind, I imagine that if I could go back in time and canna give the book that i'm writing to my seventeen old sala when I was not something, well, I think, what would I want to write in a book that i'm giving to my Younger self? And you know, would I be kind of ashamed to write a book? And then maybe we go, okay, we pick one of these dates for when the pro ism is made deal and not down.

We gott wrong. Yeah like so maybe the china ology is a little bit for something like some of the debate historical point with my seventeen year old self care about that. Are we to just think I don't really care like if is one of two details the able the story is really awesome and I .

can gave me it's interestingly very secure tic to go about things like that. Okay, how can we apply this practically? How useful is this? What is also a very ua raila c an, to debating about what a good man is versus being one?

Well, sometimes people ask you, you know, how you go about writing a book, right? And I don't think i've said that some podcast before, but the like, funny enough, the answer to this is kind of weird, right? There's a bunch of things I do that are quick specific. Like one is that I write the audio book first, right? So when i'm reading a book, i'm not reading a print book.

I think i'm writing an audio book and is part of that I read a lot, a lot and p somebody like a local bar made or something like to come or one of my friends friends over over why to come over and or give a case, a bear, why, you know, and pay them ever, forever, and i'll give them a big printer of the manuscript. And so reading entire thing to me, right? IT takes, like last time we did IT twelve.

I worse, i've got a video of the afterlife were like sliding out of our chao you know like i've got like some next piled up with we I think he was twelve I was mady um I think was the name of the my friends friend that can over and read through the hall of how to think like the socks like so cute. I think I did that several times because I wanted to know what IT sounded like as well as reading up on the page. But the other thing I would do is are Normally working the library and I would sit with a timer, and i'd practice a meditation technique for ten minutes called the pension method, where as well known in psychotherapy.

So I just repeat a word over and over, and I try and notice that i'm doing this voluntary arly. But there's also intrusive automatic thoughts. Open the money, but tried to become clear about the differentiation between what i'm thinking voluntarily.

I made Normally to say the number one or account down from ten to year over and over again on each breath, like one number, one number. I ted. Nine, eight and then start again.

My because then if you're counting in your mind what attention one does your to notice IT because you broke the sequence and I observe I think i'm doing this voltore ily. I'm currently but for suddenly think about paying my taxes or something that's automatic thought, I choose to think that I just poked into my mind. So I kind of train myself to become more without the sanction.

Then for ten minutes I would imagine that i'm in academia attius in greece, like I rote about the blink of book and image, talking socket, right. And the first thing I always do, cross a shakya hand, right. And IT took, quite surprisingly, the long time from to get used to that. I think IT seems kind of, I always remember, like, you know, my imagine these ties, like in my mind here, I insisted, and shaking his hand.

But I thought of is about, we are at first, right? And I would say to him, my, I ask him lots of questions, right? I bet anything that was strugling within the book, and what I generally found, any other history stuff, his opinion, what I united like trying to think we need to get out on the site and get to act and stuff and he would always, my imagine resolutes anyway, we'd always be like, who cares?

You know it's like, I don't even know what you know he he seemed to please surprisingly little importance and getting IT historical accurate and he said, no of those, just focus on telling the story of the literary character series in a way that is, people interested in the philosopher. That's what actually matters, right? You know, there are other books what that you can go and read where people trying to argue through the evidence .

yeah because i've been thinking about something not too to similar a little bit more generalized. But I think what you're getting out as well, which is this odd split on the internet that we have at the moment, one is extreme credential ism, which I call experts only if you don't have the required background, a lot of the time you are criticized.

Why you know? What do you know? Your not a ddt psychotherapist, psychiatrically experts, sports and physical person, whatever whatever you are pontificating about. And um the reason that I don't like IT is that it's gotten rid of I think of what Oscar while called the oxford manner which is the the ability to play Gracefully with ideas and IT seems that very much discouraged method is that and then on the other side, you have this out of over romantic ization of the reigate untrained yes, gal.

So we have these two words and you can kind of deploy them to whichever you need in order to make the other side seem stupid. So they don't have the credentials or this person is A A flame wielding truth warrior. They did IT outside of the establishment. That's how they actually really know what's going on. But is very there's A A large number of ways where unless you have a completely staler academic career, it's unfetter by any kind of controversy or falling short at any time IT IT seems to me that that bar is unreasonably high for most yeah pretty much everybody to get. And on top of all of that, IT makes a much less interesting world because nobody's allowed to play with ideas outside of the domain of credential zed competence.

See, you are thinking about animal socratic week. So you you're verified you going looking, can I see IT from more, more perspective and those so the rule that you always have to be qualified, well, maybe the sum exception to that, right? And you can easily think of examples of great thinkers.

In the past, they weren't qualified the world. So those are talented, amateur. But on the other land, having zero qualifications and certain subjects, clearly, in some cases, just leads the dunning rugger effect.

And people making school by errors are just almost crying the if you you know that the subject I mean like the most obvious example of that I think is the internet is absolutely a wash with a people can't tell a difference to twin causation and correlation and medical research like but like newspapers and magazines have like exploit that confusion for generations. But now it's becoming a come much Better thing on the internet. So they understanding can let basic medical research methods like, you know, not getting confused about that, that does lead a lot of people to make basic mistakes, right?

Basically to mess into approve, if you don't know, during the pandemic c every five minutes people are waving around research studies and softer, never, they didn't have any medical research, right? So they had no idea what the stuff they were reading. Actually, men, and over and over again, they are kind of like just making the kind of mistakes that you would get taught not to make, right.

So those there are problems that happen um I know of people when they discuss ancient philosopher that make errors that an academic philosophy maybe wouldn't make. But yeah I don't think there's a conclusive on such to this. But you I think we just need to be aware I think the best thing is just a kind to be aware of what of the person call in the same way that you know for any self help technique just at least set down and make a less of what the strength, weaknesses of this, what is a good way in a bad.

We are doing that. So you've just like more new on understanding of IT, not like just to come rigid understanding. But I think in generally you don't know this thing about I am mrs.

Verses experience, similarly the pros and coins to and just knowing what there is are is perhaps the main thing. I I mean, I can tell you over the years, I am friends with and no many well respected academics， historians, classicist, philosophers no. And I guess my attitude has changed a lot.

But from my experience, over time, and sometimes there are people that are incredibly highly qualified, the subject and say stuff that bond cuts like that, you know, the other experts in the field just stinking ve lost mainly, you know that again, they're making mistakes. A first year student would fail up assignment for fooling, right? I mean, you is weird when you see that, but IT happens a lot.

What you get books by people are professors of love or psychology or whatever. And you think a first year on the graduates student would get lambasted for saying that stuff is crazy, right? But so you know they are the most highly denial.

People are often no experts. And there's there's also A A well known problem with experts um like this actually statistical reach that shows that sit like review narrative reviews of medical research are done by experts in a particular field, tend to be unreliable. So Normally you'd think this guys like one of the most experiences heart surgeons in the world like so he's writing an article reviewing all the resource that should be authority because he really knows what he's talking about.

The experts are often biased, and they're particular prone to committing the Cherry pecking fallacy. So they just pick out studies that support they are paid theory. Professional status sessions that don't have any skin in the game will just look at what all of the research says and be really cannot cater cle e eye over, you know, I and say, no, this is what this stuff the research actually shows.

This guy is just telling you what half of the research says because its supports has picked theory and experts in a field. Or if you want to put another way, people that are really invested and certain theories that been doing that for a long time can be biased, right? And so version things can be quite distorted.

But I think the other difficulty I wanted to mention to in terms of this idea of getting information from experts and you becoming a passive rather than depending on our own reason, there's another piece of research there's very influential in state of the are like modern behavioral psychology, which shows there's a problem with something, a rule, government behavior. So if you get two groups of participants in the study, and you teach them how to solve some, you give them, you give them A A puzzle they have to solve, like pressing three button in a particular order or whatever, they get IT right to get the world. If they get IT wrong yet, they lose point.

So, all right. And in wonder, you just give them oral or written instructions, say, this is how you can solve the puzzle. They are a group.

They have to figure out through trial and era, right? This face, one of the experiment, and face to, so they do IT repeatedly, and face to the rules, the gown success change without telling them, right? So they have to adapt, basically create a cum stances where they have to adapt.

One group have been variably, given the role or solution deluder pat to figure out through shoon era the gript of land, the rule variably will keep trying IT even though it's not working. Where's the group that had to figure out themselves will adapt much more quickly. So we call this insensitivity to environmental change, right? And the reason is really important is that exactly what people who come for sex therapy doing the usually using some strategy that's not working.

And so the puzzle is what why do they keep doing IT when it's clearly not like? Why do they keep yelling at their partners when they and they, the relationships, keep breaking up as a result? Surely they, after all, why all they cannot figure out IT. This is a working out for me. And they start to adapt and change. So what is causing the rigidity and their behavior? And one of the explanations is that when we learn a role from other people passively, why, or sometimes, even if we get IT from a book of some point, that if we tend, does a tendency and establish tendency to over extend and apply IT to rigidly, and that that can cause problems.

Don't Robertson, ladies and gentlemen, good. I love you. I love all of the work that you do every time that you bringing your book out. I'm super excited. Have you got any idea what you've working on next and able get your subsidy and .

stuff like that going? Well, I like famous philosopher and stuff, Chris, but I mean, all honesty, the the thing that I SAT down in a cane, I thought, what if I could only write one more book? You know what I really, really, really, really want to write a book about? And I thought, always write something that I really feel is going to benefit the back one number of people.

So was one of the bigger problems that I think people have, and it's something we've talked a lot about today. And for that reason, because it's kind of on my mind, I want to write a book about the philosophy and psychology of anger, right? Because is one of those areas where there's a huge gulf between stuff that we actually know.

From psychological research, we know lords about anger, but most people aren't told about any of the research. So you know an anger, please. A huge role in politics. And on the internet we've got like trolling and cyberbullying and so much kind of aggression on social media and so much kind of hostility and aggression in politics.

But none of us are looking at IT and thinking, oh, when people get angry like they're thinking become screw like for example, when people get angry as well known that they underestimate risk. So when you're really angry, you tend to expose yourself and other people around you to more danger than Normal. We know loads of things like that about anger, right? But no, what most.

The majority of people aren't aware that the research tells us all kind of stuff. So today, my anger is just a feeling like it's not something that changes the thinking. And you know, if that's why I does, like how does that affect the electorate? How does that affect the behavior of politicians? There are memorable problems that IT cause.

So I think there's a lot to be said. We have got some great anka has an entire book code on anger, you know, and if we can easily compare of the ancient force of collections ure to what some of the psychological research says today. So I think people can benefit a lot from working, I call anger management, the royal road to self improvement, because most people that seek self improvement, like anxiety and depression or self blaming emotions, right? So people that are anxious or depressed tend to seek sale for therapy.

But angry people don't seek therapy typically, because if I I M really angry to us, I think you need therapy body, not me, right? So I, angry people avoided self film, said, so, you know, that's why you could go on landing. You see kind of self improvement communities like the manufacture, for example, in some cases. And there seems to be a lot of really angry people yet they are talking about itself improvement if you I don't .

have you know as that I mean I certainly that um anybody that's ruminative uh in the depressions or anxiety world, uh they've considered every six ways to sunday different solution they come up with I don't know that many angry people. Uh I think i'm uh I tend to trying avoid them. Well, maybe they hide themselves from .

me and not show you you know if you read the .

comments and youtube videos and things .

like don't where .

should people go? They wants to keep up to date .

with all of the things you're doing. Well, they can find me on sub stack like that's probably where I mainly put stuff and my website is just don't robots and name um and then yeah like if they looked me up online, i'm involved with a nonprofit to non profit once the modern storm organization, which is running to IT week at the moment. And then another one is a charity or nonprofit that we found in greece called the plato's academy center.

But we are trying to raise funds to create a conference center adjacent to the original location of platters academy. So those are the two things are interested people want to check those well, I need to give them for progress. But uh, is always, you know absolute pleasure because you're exactly that you know when I written books, it's kind of guise like you that I kind of imagine reading you know like you can see how passionate you are about these subjects and you know like I I hope that I X X reassuring to me that you find the stuff interesting if you keep coming back on.

You write you, you write something and will sit down for two hours and talk about IT every time. And I want to do, I went to do an episode with you, a primer on C. B.

T. So maybe in the next out of six months or so will find a time slot that works. And I really wanna try, just do thirty thousand foot view, the biggest principles, the biggest learnings and lessons.

My specialism was always, always used train therapies. And I, we always say that I was a technique guy, right? So I was really interested in classifying different psychological techniques and comparing them, training. We used to train people and gather data and all of these scripted exercise that we have. So I love teaching people.

And I feel like when we do, when I do interviews and things like that, the one thing i'd love to do more of is just say to people, this is how you'd actually do this visualization. take. This is technical. So you do this meditation technique. Let's to go through a bunch of me.

show you that I would absolutely love to do that. And I think, know, the more I haven't really been exposed properly to image C B T, which is I feel increasingly embarrassed about, it's like this sort of elephant in the room that I get the impression much of the stuff that I consider as being set of self discovered wisdom that i'm all proud and sort of full of myself for.

I'm like if I just read enough C, B, T, I would probably come across this already. All of the biggest realization seem to have been arrived at by C, B, T, in one form or another. I'm looking forward to maybe having the, uh, egotistic veils ripped from my eyes about my own beautiful ideas instead.

And yeah, we will do that one next done. I appreciate the hell out of you. Thank you very much for the day.

This man has been a pleasure. I really enjoyed that.

I could see you again. thank.