Ep 517 - Confessions of a Black Conservative (feat. Glenn Loury)
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Glenn Lowry, dude, it's honestly, I've been, I talk about you a lot on my podcast. I watch your stuff. I kind of parrot your talking points. I listen to you talk and I'm like, you know what I'm thinking about this whole thing. So it's an honor to have you. I think honestly, you're one of the best thinkers currently. No lie. No lie. No lie. I appreciate it. Thank you. Good to be here. Thank you so much, man. Here's, so I have a million questions. You know, you just wrote the book, Late Confessions. It's your memoir. Yeah.

Late admissions. Late admissions. Oh, dude, I'm sorry. Edit it. Late admissions. And then the subtitle is Confessions of a Black Conservative. Confessions of a Black Conservative. Excuse me. I read the book. Dude, it was, I knew it was going to be good. I, because I've been watching you for a while. So I read the book and it really, it was, you know, like books just kind of like grab you and you can't put them down.

It was, I'm not buttering you up, I swear to God. I read it and it was pretty great. That's great to hear. Because I remember you were kind of like hesitant. You're like, you know, like, well, should I write an autobiography? I don't know if you're just kind of like messing around with your co-host, John McWhorter. But did you really have like a kind of hang up? Like, do I really deserve to write an autobiography? Or did you know, like, I'm letting this rip? I don't know if I put it that way, but it was a long time coming. I've been thinking about it a long time before I actually got it done. So...

Yeah, but once I got going with it, once I got into the thing, it kind of took over. So what was that like? Did you have an outline for this part of my life, this part of my life, or did the memories just spontaneously arise as you started from the beginning? I went through different phases. First, it was going to be changing my mind. That was my title, head of working title, and I thought it was about...

Being on the left, being on the right, you know, a black guy, conservative Reagan affiliations and things like that. But then kind of going left and, you know, my back and forth, the pendulum swing of my politics changing my mind. It was going to be about, you know, the friends you lose and, you know, the things that you have to do and, you know, things like that.

But that wasn't the, that was the cover story. That wasn't the real story. Yeah, I remember that theme from there. Then it was going to be the enemy within. You know, I went through a phase when it was all about, you know, fighting my drug addiction and, you know, dealing with my sexual addiction and things like that. And confession and, you know,

getting religion and losing, you know, it's about the devil, about the guy sitting on your shoulder on one side, on the other side, the enemy within. And then I realized that the real issue for me was figuring out how to tell myself the truth about my life. That was being honest. It was coming to terms with it, you know? And I finally was able to get, get something going. Yeah. I had an outline. I had a,

I mean, I had a dozen outlines. Yeah. You just didn't know how deep you're going to go into. I knew I wanted to do the Chicago thing. I knew I wanted to do the MIT thing. I knew I wanted to do the Harvard thing. I knew I wanted to do the drug thing. I knew I wanted to do the church thing. Yeah. So I had these, you know, but it didn't have the, the life that it needed. It didn't have the, I want to say something like thematic integrity. It didn't, it didn't have the vision. It wasn't, it wasn't quite right.

What do you think the theme was? So, cause I have an idea of what the kind of the theme was for me. What do you think the theme was, at least from my experience of it? What do you think the theme was for you when you're writing it or like that you took away from it afterwards? Well, I hinted that in the preface when I say it's the problem of self-regard and I, I say I'm, I'm playing a game with the reader. The reader has to figure out whether or not what I'm saying about myself is true. And I'm, I call myself being clever. You know, I say, well,

I'm going to tell you the worst things about myself. And in doing so, I'm going to gain your trust. Yeah, I remember I was kind of tickled. I read that. I'm like, God damn it. He's so smart. There's such a good way to start the book. But that was true, though. It was you really did disclose, you know, a lot. It wasn't like, you know, I read it and I was like, first of all, and I got to say, and this is I just didn't know how much of the book was going to be about you getting pussy. That was crazy.

About what? You got a lot of pussy. A lot of the book was about getting pussy and growing weed. I had to sometimes, I had to turn it over and check. I was like, is this my life story? And I was like, no. I was like, this is you, Glenn. Well, I wasn't bragging. I wasn't trying to prove anything. No, no, no. I was just telling you what happened. You don't need to, bro. You don't need to, man. That was the smoking jacket. Dude, I would try to explain that to people. I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm like, dude, it's the funniest thing.

Was that was your uncle Adler smoking? You should have known my uncle Adler, man. Yeah, that was my uncle Adler smoking jacket and he gave it to me. I mean, it was he came to my bachelor pad on the near north side of Chicago, Lincoln Park.

And, you know, it was all set up for seduction. You know, I've got the music playing and I got the incense burning and the weed and whatnot. You know, the fireplace and the exposed brick, the track lighting, the four poster bed. You know, I'm ready, bro. And he says, oh, man, this is too much. You know, you will make better use of this than me because he was crazy.

He was this Duke Ellington-esque. He was born in the early 20s, so he would have been like 30 years old in 1952, 53. He was in his prime. He was in his prime, and he transferred you the smoking jacket.

Well, by the time this happened, which was the late 70s, he was past his prime and he was in decline. He drank himself to death. Yeah, I remember. He had a lot of different issues. But he was a ladies' man par excellence. Wait, so how old was he when he gave you the jacket? How old was he when he gave you the jacket? Okay, this was... He would have been...

55. Oh, okay. I thought you were saying he was 30. I got you. So he was like really happy. No, he was still making good use of it when he was 30. So what was the protocol for the jacket? Would it be on like in the house? Would you toss it on afterwards? Like how exactly did it work? The coolest thing was coming out of the shower, drying off and just putting the jacket on. God. And then I don't know if you fully, I mean, maybe you recognize this, but just like the...

the poetic nature of how it met its demise, just a scorned young lover cutting it to pieces. Like there was no other way that jacket was going to lose form other than that by the hands of a scorned young lady. It was like some kind of Greek tragedy. I read that. I was like, this is beautiful. Like I say, it was like entrails strewn on the floor. Like, you know, a soothsayer is supposed to come in and tell you what your future is going to be when you see this shit. Yeah.

But that's what I really liked because, like, you know, you really can, like you were saying, like, oh, I'll just hit a couple key themes from the south side of Chicago, blah, blah, blah. But you, like, really went in in the autobiography, and it was like you were really laid, like, you know, just stuff out there that I think a lot of people would kind of be like,

Now I'm going to polish my image where you're like, well, I want to be authentic, but then I don't want to totally, you know, loser is everyone has stuff they've done that they're obviously not proud of. To the point where people might be saying, you're telling me too much. They might be saying, why are you telling me all of this? They might be trying, trying to say, oh, it was that bad. You think you can get a pass by telling me how bad it was? You know? Yeah, but that's kind of, I think that's kind of a,

I don't know. I don't, I totally agree with what you're saying, but I'm like, if you've lived a full life, you know, like you've made mistakes yourself and to be able to like make them learn from them, grow from them. I don't know. I just, I just like when people are like, you think you're going to pass now? It's like, dude, I'm sure you've done stuff too. Like, yeah. My answer would be like, yeah, dude, I wrote it down. And it's like, well, a pass for what? It's just like, this is my life. This is what happened. And it's like, well, that's where I came out. I came out saying, uh,

You know, it is what it is, and I have to tell it fully. And as I say in the book, in a way that I'm...

exposing myself to myself too. I'm going back over these things and I'm asking myself, man, how could you have done that? What was it going on in your mind? Like when I smoked crack in my Harvard office. Yeah, that was pretty good. I mean, I take my whole career in my hands. Anybody could have come in with a security key, man. Yeah, that and also- That was crazy. That was a wild move. And also I will say bringing the side babe to a work thing

I read that. I was like, no, Glenn, don't do this. No, no, dude, that was crazy. In Israel. In Israel. I took her to a conference at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Mount Scopus campus. Yeah.

And were people really like, did people actually like take you aside? Like, dude, what the hell were they just kind of like? They did, but they raised their eyebrows. But I was oblivious to the whole thing, man. I was getting ready to go into the Reagan administration as an undersecretary to Bill Bennett in the education department, which was all about family values and everything like that. And I was, it was just crazy. Yeah, but the thing that I'm, this is the one question I like, because when I read your autobiography and it sent me, I started reading them now like impulsively. I'm reading a bunch of them because...

Because then I started like, when I read yours, the big question was like to that point of like when you were like, you know, orbiting the apex of basically worldly power. And then the whole thing, the thinking that I would get from your autobiography would be like, yeah, I shouldn't be doing this. I shouldn't be having extramarital affairs, but I kind of deserve a reward. I'm working hard. I'm getting all this stuff. And if that was the thinking at the time, and it's honestly like,

Like you said, you weren't obviously the only one in Washington, D.C. that had, you know, a little sweet thing on the side. So the question would be like, looking back on all that, what do you think a person in like super high stature like deserves, quote unquote, or like what do you think looking back on that now? Does that question make sense? Well, yeah, I...

In the book, I talk about master the universe. Yes, that's the phrase. You know, and I got that from Tom Wolfe, the writer, you know, his book, Bonfire of the Vanities, you know, his character, Sherman McCoy, who was a bond trader. He was like 35 year old at a big apartment in the Park Avenue or something like that. He was living the life in New York City, had social x-ray wife and all the museum, you know, benefit things and whatnot. And he's

making a million dollars a year. And he's a master at the university. He has a side piece. He gets into trouble. It's a fiasco. You have to read the book. It's very funny. Yeah, yeah. But I identify with that guy. Yeah. I thought, you know...

You know, I'm a professor at Harvard. I'm the smartest guy in the room. You know, I wasn't making his kind of money, but I wasn't doing badly. I had real connections. I was on the upscale. I was on the magazine, you know, thing. And you're getting tapped by literally the Reagan administration. Yeah. I mean, going to the White House and I was, you know, world was mine. I could do whatever I wanted to do. And the side piece was a part of that. Yeah. You know, did not think there would ever be any reckoning. It felt like I had it coming.

The reckoning you're saying? I said didn't think there would ever be any reckoning. I mean, didn't imagine chickens would come home to roost. Didn't see anything, you know, like Sherman McCoy in the book. Yeah, yeah. When he ends up in a New York City courtroom and his whole life falls apart and the girlfriend is gone and the bond trading firm doesn't want his services anymore and the newspapers are on his heels and the lawyers are picking him over. Yeah.

I ended up pretty much in the same kind of a position. Yeah, well, that's kind of my question because I started reading these autobiographies trying to figure out like, because there's like, you know, if you look at like value systems, there's, you have like sacrifice self. This is all from like spiral dynamics, which I'm not like a master of. I've just read books about it. And there's like,

Express self, which is like, I'm going to get what I want. Not even like, damn everybody else, but I'm going to try to get as much as I want. That's my driving emphasis on life. And then there's like, I should sacrifice my well-being for the good of others. They're just two prevalent worldviews that you can either subscribe to one. The question I have is like...

to what degree do you sacrifice your own joy and happiness versus do you, you know, pursue your own joys? And like, basically how do those worldviews play out if you read someone's entire life? So I don't have the answer to that. I don't know if maybe you could share. Yeah. It's really, it's a, it's kind of a tough one to figure out. What would you say looking back on it? Like, do you, cause my main question was like, yeah, if you were to have side pieces and get away with it, you'd probably look back on your life pretty fondly and be like, fuck. Yeah, dude, that was awesome.

But it's when it comes and it just kind of like hits your life like a meteorite. I think that's when people, that's what I'm just trying to figure out basically. Sorry, that's like kind of a heavy question. What I told myself was I was living fully. Yeah. I've only got one life. I'm going to live it to the full. I'm going to have experience, you know. Mm-hmm.

I mean, I went through a religious phase and I, you know, I abandoned all of my wild pursuits. You know, my wife who had been with me through thick and thin and stuck with me. We started having a family. We had two sons. We're in their 30s now, but we're babies at the time. And I found Jesus. You know, I was deacon in the church. I was, you know, AA. You know, I was going to my meetings, you know, two years, five years. You know, I was a straight arrow for a while. Yeah.

So my question is, and in the book it is funny because you talk about kind of the breaking point is like people touching you and you had to do like basically the tongues. And you had at one point you just gave in and you're like, but it's complicated. What was that like? I mean, was it not? Well, there was that I, you know, there, there was, there was the secretary of mine who tragically died early in the funeral and everybody danced around talking about she's with Jesus. And I,

And I just wanted to pause for a minute and contemplate the fact that this beautiful young woman was gone from this freak disease and right in the prime of everything good was happening for her. And, you know, Jesus, I mean, I didn't want to hear it. I didn't want to hear about it was okay. Yeah. And they were like dancing around this church. And that really pissed me off. Yeah. Yeah.

But the thing that you referred to was earlier, it's when I was first coming along in the church and being inducted into the spiritual community and the culture of belief. And it was about baptism in the Holy Spirit. And they were putting hands on me and praying while we were setting up chairs in the gymnasium where the church was having its services before the service and inviting me into this state of faith.

a giftedness with respect to spiritual gifts, you know, speaking in tongues, you know, healing, you know, this kind of, you know. So this was a conservative, theologically conservative, Pentecostal-oriented kind of congregation, even though it's black Methodist, African Methodist Episcopal, but they had this flavor to it. And, you know, I didn't believe, you know, and I ended up speaking in tongues. You did. You know, I ended up,

Because that's how you show that the baptism of the Holy Spirit has come upon you, that you have a manifestation of it. But it was fake. I was just doing it to have them stop praying. Because those people, those Christians were going to keep on praying. They wouldn't stop. It was this surreal scene. And they're going on and on and on. And they're getting expressive. And they want completion of this thing. And I did. I performed. And afterwards, I kind of...

There was a kind of cynicism to it. You know, what kind of, you know, what game are we playing? You know, we... So eventually I moved away from the church. But as I tell in the book, it's a complicated story. Where do you, yeah, so where do you stand now personally with like spiritual beliefs and like, where do you... So if I had to put a name on it, I'd say agnostic, religious.

I am not an anti-religious person. I'm not a person who, oh, they believe in God. That's some crazy shit. I'm not that guy. I respect people's trying to come to terms with the biggest questions of existence. What's the meaning of life? Who am I? Where did we come from? What's the answer to the ultimate question? People are seeking, and this is a human...

tendency that you see in every culture going back throughout recorded time. I mean, people seek meaning in life, but I think it's the hardest problem there is. What's the meaning of life? I don't believe in magic. I'm not going to just sign on to something that doesn't make sense to me. I don't believe in virgin births. I don't believe that a person who died is alive a thousand, 2000, 3000 years after they died. I don't believe that. That's just asking me too much.

But the answer to, you know, it relates to what we were talking about earlier about getting pussy and about side pieces and about, you know, what's the most noble way of living? What's the most rewarding way of living? Is feeding my sensual desires real? I mean, you know, is there anything higher than that? I mean, what about my loyalty to others? What's the, you know...

Anyway, I'm rambling. I think people trying to answer that question in part through religious practice is a legitimate thing. I'm just not...

I'm just not. So that's kind of the exact, that's exactly kind of my question is like, what do you, and again, it's, it is kind of a tough one to answer, but it's like, what is, what have you walked away from being like, is there anything higher than feeding your sensuous appetites? And like over the course of like, you know, decades, does the sensuous appetite being fulfilled, fulfilled be like worth it? Or is it like, is there something you think higher than that, that just in like, you know, whatever else there could be, even if it isn't like an organized religion, but like, where do you stand on that now?

Does that question make sense? Repeat the question. So is, do you think it's there? It is enough to just kind of satisfy like sensuous kind of like appetites of the body. Or do you think there is something higher principles and over the course of time, just as I could see serving higher principles and then getting to the end of it and being like, well, what the fuck, man, I could have been having fun. That was a waste of time. Or do you think that pays off? I don't know. I just know there are other people. I know that,

when you make a decision to hurt somebody, that that's consequential. I don't think my sensual gratification is the highest thing. I mean, what about my intellectual edification? True. What is that, Jessica Pussy? LAUGHTER

No, I hear you. And man, you know, I'm in my 70s now. Yeah. You know, mortality. That's the thing that, you know, you confront. I realize I've only got however much I've got, but it's not that much, you know? Yeah. And then you're gone. And then what? I mean, and then what? I don't believe in the afterlife either. I think when the brain cells stop firing, whatever consciousness that is embodied in me is gone forever. Forever.

So what's the point? And, you know, I could say some poetic stuff here. Baby smile, you know. Things like that. The sunrise and, you know. And it's not bad watching the sunrise over the ocean from the beach and, you know, whatever. And the pussy's not bad either. True. You know, a good glass of wine or whiskey. Right. Smoke. Yeah. But there's got to be more.

There's got to be more than that. And what about my legacy? What about the memory? I mean, I know that whatever I do now, it is in stone, whatever it is that people can look back upon. That was, you know, Glenn Lowry. Yeah, well, and then so speaking of that, that was the big I think this has kind of been in the book, a big theme of your life where it's like you're in a place you can kind of identify things that seem almost performative and like not.

I guess like true to experience or whatever. And I feel like you could have in the book, you say people because of your race would just be like, Hey, just kind of take a position. Not, you know, you had your own merits, but you detected there'd be a lot of like, look, you know, kind of quota filling and like, just relax, take a paycheck and like, just be here for representation. And you kind of really bucking against that being like, no, fuck that. I'm going to, I'm going to be here on my merits. And like, I'm going to go to a different school. Like where were you at at one point where you're like, I'm out of here or there? I think it was, that wasn't the Kennedy center, was it?

Am I mischaracterizing? No, you're not. You're not mischaracterizing it. This is about affirmative action and about race and how you come to terms with what people think about and the expectations they might have and whatnot. And, you know, I've gone through different phases on it.

But I was at Harvard. I was at Harvard in 1982. I came as a professor, the first black to be tenured in the economics department. I was appointed in Afro-American studies. I was trained at MIT. That's where I did my PhD. I was a techie guy. I was a math whiz and a theoretical economist and very academic, very ivory tower. And it was a fork in the road for me about whether to be a pundit

you know, a public intellectual, a guy that you see on TV and writing in magazines and whatnot, or whether to be a scientist. And I didn't know if I was good enough to really break through to the first rank of the scientists. I was in that pack, but I didn't know if I was at the top of the heap in that pack because, you know, these guys are pretty good. Yeah.

I had my doubts. And I got brought into Harvard so early in my career. And I had this portfolio of responsibilities where I was going to be the black guy. I was going to be the black economist. I was going to do the Afro thing, as well as doing the scientific thing on economics. And I was overwhelmed by it and the doubt, the doubt of whether I was good enough, which especially...

uh, rankled me because I didn't want anybody to think that I was, and also ran that I was being patronized. I didn't want to be that guy, that black guy that, Oh, well, we know he's not really, really, but you know, we got to, I don't want to be that guy. Yeah. And, uh, I say in the book, I choked, uh,

I thought about that game of pool I lost to my mother's lover in that pool hall way back when I was a kid. That was excruciating, dude. I read that. Andrew's a big pool guy. He can play really well. But I read that. I had a clean shot on the eight ball in the side pocket. And I would have run the table on this dude. And he's got his hand on my mom's butt. Oh, bro. And I don't know who he is. Oh, man.

And, you know, man, and I missed that shot. I choked, man. Yeah. And I felt a little bit like that some days when I was sitting in my office at Harvard and I was trying to find an idea that I thought was going to be a good enough idea. And I'm looking on my show and everybody's looking and is he going to be good enough and whatnot? And I had an out. Yeah. The out was going over to the Kennedy School, taking up the job of a public intellectual and started writing op-ed pieces and stuff.

you know, book reviews and magazines and commentary because I was a unusual black guy. I was conservative in some of my orientations. I had a lot of respect for what the Reagan revolution was about as far as an economist concerned. Forgive me, forgive me.

It was a long time ago. I was young. I was young and foolish. But there was a road for me to be a pundit and a commentator, you know, a Cornel West, you know, kind of type. You know, respect. I respect Cornel. He's also fantastic. Yeah, I respect Cornel. But the scientific with the green eye shade and just doing the, you know, the epsilons and all that. And I...

made the choice to go the way that I, that I, that I went, ended up going. I'm curious though, because, you know, you know, I obviously had only seen your show before that. So I didn't know, I knew you were, you know, economists and all that stuff. I don't know anything. I'm terrible at math. So I was just like, you know, whatever, like supply and demand. And I didn't know it was such a technical science, but the,

like you have regrets about because you seem my point is you seem so well suited for like commentary like you're so good at like just talking in general that like did you the fact that you were like i don't know if i want to do this do you feel like that was like almost a like a well-placed nudge by the universe at the time or do you feel kind of like damn i wish i stuck which is just imagine you sitting in a building doing math it's like my god it's kind of yeah i think all things considered

it was like you say, a nudge of the universe well placed in the right direction. Although I have regrets. I mean, uh, I would have been a much less interesting dude. I had done the scientific thing. Maybe you could, you could have been like breaking bad. You might've been like, there would have been this character inside of the guy trying to get out. Um,

That's what I'm saying. It would have been crazy to keep all that in, just the hours of talking, all the stuff you've done, and to keep that in and just sit behind a desk and just doing... So there's a character I carried through the book. Jonathan Hughes is his name. He was one of my teachers when I was an undergraduate at Northwestern University. He's a historian, economic historian, economist, but a historian, played the saxophone, and always said...

Don't eat lunch at the economist table and the faculty club go to the big table where the historians and the literature people and the scientists and, and whatnot, because it's too narrow. It's, it's too, it's too narrow. Read, read widely, read, you know, outside of your field. And I think that not getting too down in the weeds spirit stuck with me. I mean, I, you know,

So I might've been unhappy. Yeah. As a guy trying to, you know, every year the Nobel list comes out, you're looking to see if your name is on it. Kind of guy. Yeah. I might've been, you know, unhappy. I know I would've gotten a lot less pussy. Yeah. I mean, well, and it's funny too, because I mean, I think obviously it worked out. You know, you're doing, you got your recognition and it's like,

I do see the pressure that is kind of like, you know, because for me, it's like maybe this is like I'm trying to think how to formulate this. But I especially with like, you know, the black conservative thing, I feel like there's just like undue pressure where it's like, you know, you're doing conservative values. Then you have, you know, in the back of your head, it's like you have, you know, family, all these other people where it's like could almost excommunicate you being like, dude, you're you know, you're playing for the wrong side. Did you feel the pressure of like,

almost like conservatives wanting to be like yeah yeah say say those things it's like you know do you how did you because it's a shame because it's like if that's your real orientation then you're like how do you balance that or do you care that's a good question matt no i i definitely care i definitely felt and i think you put it very well yeah on the conservative side that people said yeah get on out there darky i could say it but they bite my head off you go ahead

On the one hand. And then on the other hand, there's like my home boys and my uncles and whatnot sitting back saying, man, what kind of Uncle Tom thing are you doing? Tap dancing for the white man. You know, Reagan? Come on, you got to be kidding me. Reagan? Yeah. And where do I stand? I don't want to be anybody's dancing bear. You know, I'm there to say that even black people agree with us about affirmative action. I'm not. I don't want to be that. Sure. Yeah. Sure.

On the other hand, I had my doubts about affirmative action. I actually agreed with Reagan about a lot of the economic policy stuff. You know, so I had to be true to myself. I mean, I can't live my uncle's life. I mean, you know, but I had doubts. So that's definitely the case. So I bounced back and forth. You know, I mean, I broke with the Reagan people. I...

Tried to come home again and realize that I, you know, you can't ever really go home again. Yeah. Well, it's kind of like, oh, you got to switch your thing. All right. So I'll take a little break. All right. Sorry about that. We had a little change the battery in the camera. So, OK, so not to lose our place.

The thing I was at was the just kind of the black conservative question. And it does. It always struck me that it's like there's this weird like double pressure on black people in terms of like politics and stuff, because it does get like, you know, just the phrase black conservative is like you have to almost qualify it where it's like you're kind of under. It's like.

pressure to be like are you performing for you know white people or whatever then like like who do you be true are you true to yourself are you being you know and it's like that it seems like a lot of what kind of pressure to kind of it is a lot i try to point at that in in dealing in the book i mean authenticity you know loyalty and you know

I resent other people thinking that they look at the color of my skin and they think I know what I'm supposed to say or what I'm supposed to do. I deeply resent that. Yeah. On the other hand, you know, when I pick up the newspaper and I read about some of the shenanigans that are going on, I mean, I'm talking about in Baltimore and St. Louis and Philadelphia, Chicago, New Orleans. Yeah. I feel ashamed.

Now, why should I feel ashamed about some knucklehead in some ghetto project somewhere that's ripping somebody off in a carjacking and shoot some other train? Why should I feel anything about that just because that person is black and I'm black? And I feel like it's my people. And I feel like I'd be damned if I apologized for that. On the other hand, how can I expect somebody to see that and not want to move their family away from it? Yeah.

And is it enough to just call them a racist? And I feel like the people who represent my group, my racial group, go on TV, and I could name names, but I don't need to. You know, it's a song and dance. I mean, they're not dealing with the real thing, and they're not being honest with it. And yet, if I were to say what I really think, then I'd be a traitor. So it's like a maze. It's like wandering in a...

in a maze. I mean, I don't know what to do. And I don't want to feel trapped. You know, I want to be true to myself. So I'm dealing with it the best I can. Yeah. Well, that was like, so I went to school like kind of later, like only a couple of years ago, I think in 2000, I went to school for social work, or no, 2020, excuse me, for social work. And that was like, I mean, it was crazy just being like, there was no

Like, even suggesting that somebody have something... You could even be like, obviously, there was historical traumas endured. And, like, that does... There's a real thing with that. Then be like, but despite, you still have to have some sort of, like, you know, like, self-responsibility. Like, you are, at some point, still responsible for your life. Just saying, like, that, they'd be like, no, you can't. How dare you? It's just kind of like, well, dude, it's not going to help anybody. Like, take, like, a 40-year-old person and be like, yeah, look, none of this is your fault. So, I feel like it's...

I feel like everything gets simplified where it's like you have, you know, one group of people being like, it's their fault. They need to fucking get their act together. Talking about like black people from the inner city. And then you have people be like, look, it's not their fault at all. And it's like, there has to be some, it seems pretty easy to like stitch those two things together. Like, yeah, obviously there's been some terrible stuff that's happened that's had an effect, but there's also needs to be some self accountability. Like, where do you kind of stand on that question? Or do you just like, I agree with that. I mean, there are a lot of unfairnesses in the world.

And there are a lot of people who are in desperate straits and who could, it could do with some help. And I would not want to be a 22 year old mother with three children and making $20,000 a year trying to buy on earned income tax credit and stuff, medical and food stamps. I mean, I wouldn't want to be that woman or I wouldn't want to be one of her children. Yeah. That's inequality in spades. But yeah,

That's a separate point from the point that each and every one of us is responsible for how we live our lives and what we do at our time and the extent to which we are responsible to those who are dependent upon us. And you can't let the one cancel out the other. I mean, you so I mean, let me be concrete.

Homicide, violence, assault, rape. You just look at the numbers and look at the racial disparity in the numbers. I don't want to hear from a social worker about how it wasn't his fault. He had a choice to make. I mean, who are we if we as a society take such despicable behavior? Of course, I get emotional. Now I'm getting emotional about...

Criminal behavior where they're victimizing people. Well, we should get emotional about it because it's despicable. Little baby sitting on his grandmother's knee on the front porch and some THUG riding by shooting a pistol at his rival out the window and he kills him. That's despicable. Black Lives Matter. Exactly. Exactly. That's despicable. Yeah, yeah. Like that. I think you should be able...

to do both things. We should have a decent society without apologizing for criminals. And when they're black criminals, without apologizing for black criminals.

Yeah, and that was the thing. And then on your show I was watching, you said something to the effect, and I thought it was also true and good to be like, you know, and people forget too that people in the inner city, they're Americans. They're your fellow country people. We should be also helping where we can help and not using the crime to just be like, that's a totally lost cause and then blah, blah, blah. Because there is like, when I was doing the social work, I worked with high schoolers, and I would hear their stories, and it's just like, I grew up in the suburbs, and it's like from a suburban perspective to be like,

yeah they just got to figure it out man they got to go to school and it's like i would hear the firsthand accounts of like what a 14 year old girl was dealing with and it's just like jesus christ man it would just be like frying my computer room like this is you know so it yeah i wish people would take a more kind of nuanced approach and just kind of like you're saying be able to be like yeah you can call out bad behavior and also not try to like use bad behavior to you know if you want to take like a not to like single out fox news but like growing up in the 90s i'm sure you remember the news was just like

on Fox news, it was like, black guys are terrible. And like, you just, it almost like when I remember being a little kid watching TV, just like seeing the news and like, Jesus Christ, that's all it was. Then it flipped to like terrorists. Then it was like, you know, white people are the devil. Um,

So, yeah, I wish people would take more of like a nuanced approach that and it really makes me think like, have you ever thought about just for the sake of the money, just cashing in and going like full daily wire and going with full daily wire and just being like, yeah, do you motherfuckers better knock it off right now? Here's my two million dollars. Because that's crazy. You watch those right wing commentators and it's like, you know, it's the same when I was like the super liberal, you know exactly how they're going to fall on the issue every time. And it's like everything about taking that money and just.

go on just totally unilateral one issue. Be like, yeah, guys, just let me know. Because those guys can give me lots of money. You're giving me ideas, man. Just a couple years. Just cash in for a couple years. And just be like, you know what, guys? I'll take it back. Because isn't that crazy, though, that you have the internet? Well, I'll tell you what. So...

Because you know you could do it. You could do it very well if you wanted to. I have the podcast, The Glenn Show, and people watch it. And it's got a Substack thing and it had a Patreon thing. And they're paying subscribers and there's advertisers and there's a little bit of money on the table. There could be a lot more money. You know what I'm talking about, exactly. My whole point is you kind of pay the price for being honest and nuanced. Oh, wait a minute. Because I got most of these guys beat because I'm an Ivy League tenured professor with an MIT PhD. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

You're not going to be able to write that brother off. Okay. And he's out talking about what the immigrant thugs are doing. Cats. Have you talked about eating cats yet? They will pay. They will pay to hear that. They will pay you a couple million bucks a year. You can sign up tomorrow. Yeah, the thought has crossed my mind, but you know. Yeah. That's my whole point. That's what I admire about you. Again, it's like you could easily fall in at your own level.

you know, gain throughout years and decades. You could have just fallen into being like, all right, I kind of see what's going on here. Let me kind of grease my palms and kind of go with the flow. But your whole life seems to be you getting into situations and being like, this is fucking bullshit. And it's a shame because it's like, you know, the markets obviously rewards currently just like demagogic, kind of like unilateral thinking of like good guys, bad guys. We're the good guys. They're the bad guys. And that's all we're doing with the debates. It's like, we got to pick a non-biased approach.

thing where it's like now it's like i won't do a debate on that one and i won't do a debate on this one it's it's i think it's like embarrassing well you know the shame of it is i still get accused of being a grifter just for speaking my mind as i did just a minute ago they say that i'm doing it for the money when if i really wanted the money they haven't got any idea oh my god you can make so much more bro you can make so much more and that's i mean you hopefully you don't read what do you make of the whole internet comment phenomenon do you read them or do you kind of like

Yeah, I read them. I'm not going to say I read every single one of them in every one of the platforms. Never pissed you off? But yeah, they pissed me off. I mean, I have an editor and a producer at the podcast who helped me put the thing out. And, you know, we meet, talk about all this stuff and the feedback and what the audience capture. You don't want to get the audience capture and whatnot. Yeah. But yeah.

I try not to take it personally. Yeah. Yeah, you can't. You just can't. I always tell people podcasting, the comments are like coal dust for coal miners. Dude, this is an unfortunate reality. You got to breathe some in, but don't, you can't, don't take, don't whiff it in unnecessarily because it'll spin you out. You get one that's like, great. Another one like this sucks. This guy's the worst guy ever. And then you're stuck between those two things. You're like, I don't know which one's true. Yeah. Yeah.

But that is something I do admire, the fact that, like, your shows, you guys really do, like... And there's not a lot of it. You don't see a lot of, like, high-level commentary and thought on issues other than just kind of, like, here's a CNN panel with, like, four people blinking in a camera, and, you know, they're cutting mics and doing stuff. Same on Fox, where it's, like, you know, you can say stuff, and they kind of, like, really try to, like, almost force a point on people rather than letting the point kind of, like, the cream rise to the top in terms of people talking. And it's, like...

I think you and John McWhorter do a good job of that. And you guys at least have, you kind of offset each other. You know, I know you guys don't agree on everything. Have you guys ever gotten in like a, kind of like a real fight on the show where you had to like, what's the question again? You and John McWhorter. Yeah. I was ever like really butted heads hard or like fighting over something. Yeah. Uh, I mean, not, not really. I mean, we, we have a thing going, you know, this kind of stick. Yeah. No,

Like Lewis and Martin or something like that, you know, playing off of each other. And, you know, my personality is whatnot. I go on these rants. He's kind of snooty. John, I'm sorry, man. I'm sorry. He's great. He was saying himself he would acknowledge it. You know, he's kind of weird in that way. But he's smart and he's interesting. And we have a conversation going. And yeah, I mean, Trump.

You know, so I'm a Trump apologist and he's got Trump derangement. Yeah, that's kind of like the type. And I'm like, you know, how can you sit there in New York City and sneer down your noses at 75 million people? And, you know, have you ever thought about why he's actually as successful as he is? You know, you're a coastal elite.

People do not have a natural entitlement to run the world. Yeah. So what do you make of that then, the whole Trump versus Kamala Harris situation? Specifically Kamala Harris' rise from literally like the ashes. It was like a senile guy, a visibly guy with cognitive issues. It's one of the most interesting things I've ever seen in my lifetime. I mean, what I think about it is...

There are events which expose the real structures of power for what they are. So I watched Nancy Pelosi on Bill Maher, and she's out with a book called The Art of Power. Really? Yeah, Nancy Pelosi has a book. It's called The Art of Power. And Bill Maher had her on his intro segment when he does the interview one-on-one. And I thought, yeah, okay.

This is real power. You asked me about Kamala Harris and, you know. Sorry to cut you off. What is the nature of her book, though? I haven't read the book. How is it? She's, I guess, giving an account of her rise as Speaker of the House and leader of the Democratic Party and, you know, the inside game of, you know, how we decide.

Things like who's going to be president of the United States. What? Why did she do that? I added that last because I haven't read the book. I'm saying it's the art of power. That's what, you know, Trump's signature book is the art of the deal. Nancy Pelosi is the art of power in the image. When I watched her being interviewed by Bill Maher was her tearing up that copy of the state of the union address that Trump gave that time. Yes. I remember that contempt. Yeah.

for this guy that got more votes than anybody else except Joe Biden, et cetera. Yeah. But she does have a book named The Art of Power. That's true.

She doesn't what about? She does have a book. Yeah, that's true. That's true. You were pulling my leg on the, I thought she really did a tell all about like pulling candidates and all this stuff. What I was trying to say in response to your question about Kamala Harris was she was a failed vice president until yesterday. And now she's become the hope for the future. And I resent having that foisted on me. Yeah. I'm just saying, I'm not a fool. I'm not asleep out here. I see you people making your moves. I see you billionaire hedge fund people making your moves. Yeah.

Uh, I see you, uh, uh, democratic party leadership making your moves on me and trying to tell me a story about what's going on. And first black woman, first Asian woman. Yeah, please, please give me a break. My sense. It is kind of grotesque to even, especially to use like, you know, uh,

legacy of racial struggles and all that stuff and like have that as like almost a hologram hovering over a giant bureaucratic machine trying to launch like multiple wars. I like that image. You know what I mean? Doesn't that feel kind of like, I don't know, it gives me the creeps where I'm kind of like, don't, you know, of all things, like Jesus, man.

Well, the hologram image, I love this. This is what is put out by the real structures of power to mollify and put you people to sleep, to lull you into a complacency and an acceptance, to give a phony legitimacy. I mean, the future. Yeah. Hope. Yeah. War wars. Joy. Yeah. The joy made me laugh, dude. That was when you did the rendition of Oprah's performance of Joy, that actually made me chuckle. I was...

Do they think we are idiots? What do they think? They lead us with a ring through our nose. They say bark and we bark. How does it work? I mean, that's a question too. Is it even working? Is it all just a media fabrication? Because I don't see... I live in a pretty liberal area in Austin, Texas.

And I don't see a ton of the Harris signs. I see them. They're like starting to pop out a little more and more, but it's not like you, you know, usually you would think that there'd be everywhere. Like Obama. I remember when Obama was running, those signs were everywhere. The Harris, um, forgive me. I forget the Mr. Vice president's name, but that waltz, I believe. I don't see, I don't see those as many as much. And I'm, I'm in like the thick of like,

Kind of like a liberal area. They're starting to spring up on the east side of Providence in the Tony neighborhood that I live in, but not nearly as thick as the Obama side. That's what I'm saying. It's like, you know, she goes to be at the Great Hope, and I'm kind of seeing that being like, wow, I don't know if they even believe it. It's a short campaign. Yeah, true. It's over. The next month is going to be over. Yeah, that's a...

That is a, that is true. It's like, here's the thing too, because it's easy to like point the finger, but I do think they are kind of like a, almost a manifestation of just like collective apathy. Like people are like Trump and come out. It's like, well, nobody else seems to really care. Like, like they're just trying to go and press a button. Like, yeah, these people will take care of it. Now we've had just like these weird kind of figures emerge. And it's like, how do we not have anybody better in this whole country to do the most? That's what my wife keeps asking me. Important job.

You know, this is what we're left to choose among. It almost proves it's like somehow being curated in like a very weird way where it's like, you know, like if you're just someone with like good intentions and a lot of good ideas, like clearly can't make it to the national spotlight, you know, maybe, maybe now with the internet, I don't know. No, it's, it is what it is. True. That's true. That's true. I guess I'm naive to think that, you know, we'd just be like, get out there, man. You can do it. But either way you have a, so again,

Glenn show. I think people should all watch that. Is there anything else you have burning on your mind? You'd like to talk about comedy. So I did this event at the comedy cell in Norman and Shane was one of the people who came up there, spoke highly of you too, by the way. He's like, he's like, I met Glenn Lowry. I was like, what?

So my thesis was, I said to Noam, I think there are things, I'm a political commentator, but I think there are things that really only comedians can say. Like Dave Chappelle talking about the trans stuff or whatever. Sure, yeah. He almost got cashiered for that, but, you know. Kind of. Then you just end up making more and more money because it just kind of draws more attention. Do you agree? Do you agree that there are things that only a comedian can say? And do you feel, as a comedian, any responsibility to say them? Eh.

I think they're unfortunately, yeah. For some, like if you're in an office, I can't like, I can, I actually was in an office when I was doing social work. I had been a comedian before. I kind of started having doubts. Like I had this job. I just want to like do something and actually work with people that I did land me in an office. And people would be like, yo man, like you can't talk like that. So I, there is definitely like, yeah, obviously I think, you know, or construction workers also can say whatever they want, but there's not a big difference, but I don't know. I, when I get like,

I think that yes, comedians not to get too highfalutin about, you know, what I've been up to, but it's like a lot of comedians kind of cash in and just kind of put the blinders on to like, look, I don't want to get controversial. I want to kind of sell my tickets. And, but I think, yeah, I think they have a function where they should be kind of like, you know, ridiculing. Cause I was reading something recently and they're saying, you know, ridicules usually the tool of the masses. And when,

people in power try to employ ridicule, it never has the same effect because it kind of comes off as like, you know, kind of contrived and phony. So I think, yeah, I think as a comedian, you should be like kind of lampooning anything you see as just kind of like disingenuous or just kind of like fake. Like you were saying, you can watch the Kamala thing and I'm sure people can make fun of Trump too if they want and it's like whatever they have, you know, ad nauseum. But it's like you see something about it and you're like...

This is kind of weird, but if you're in an office environment and you're like, I don't know about this. Now it's like you could upset your boss. You know, it's just, you can't. I do think working in an office for too long gives you like low grade brain damage, which is not a popular opinion, but I think it does. Just from having to kind of like, just like you were saying behind a science desk, just keep so much of you inside of yourself. I think it does something. I think you have like these mini hemorrhages in your brain. So sorry to answer your question. Yeah, I think they do. I think you should try to be funny because there's like,

There's people out there, you know, they're working, they're at a job, they hate all the time. So like, you know, it's like you got to strike a balance between being like I'm burning with the message for the world because then people can be like, bro, come on, man, I'm trying to just laugh. I just want to laugh and have fun and drink a couple beers. But I think there is, you know, you try to make you have some sort of substance to it, you know, if you are kind of inclined. But you can also go out there and just do dick jokes. And if people laugh the whole time, it's like.

I would never like sneer and be like, it's just like perfect mission accomplished. Make people laugh, spread joy. You know? So I have another question. You're a performer. I'm a performer. When I go and give a lecture in class, I'm a performer. Yeah. And I've been doing it for a long time. My first college teaching experience was in 1975. So when I retire next year, it'll be 50 years. Damn. College teaching.

I am always, always nervous before I step in front of a class. Always, even to this very day. I have notes, but I'm not sure I'm going to have enough to say or that I'm going to, you know, be interesting and good and whatnot. I feel like to this day, I don't know how a standup person does that thing. Yeah. There are no notes.

I mean, I'm sure there's rehearsal. I'm sure there's drafting and sketching and there's thought that goes into it. But it's in the moment. It's the performance. There's the audience. And there's no net.

There's no safety net. There's no fallback. I mean, you know, if you go flat, if you, as it were, lose your place, you're fucking done. Yeah, they call it losing your spine. If you lose your spine on stage, you're done. Well, I will say, and this is what I tell people. It's like, yes, it's the same thing. I'm always kind of nervous. Even the first five minutes takes me. I'm like a little squirrely. I don't know if people can even notice, but I'm like kind of like, because I'm like, I'm going to forget. I start like kind of a thing where I'm like, what am I doing?

But the thing that comedians get is when a whole room laughs, it puts you in like the deepest sense of like, it's, it's, it's like a, it's a harder feeling to describe, but it's a very nice feeling. And you're just kind of like little Pac-Man pellets. You're like trying to get the next laugh, the next laugh. And once you've gotten so many, you just kind of relax. And like when I talk without laughter, I try to give a reading at my brother's wedding a couple of years ago. And I was like,

My mom was like, you do it. I'm like, I'm a pro man. I professional speaker. I was going to pass out. I was at the podium. Like there was 40 people. And I was like, I'm going to free. I thought I was going to faint. So I'm not a public speaker by nature, but comedy, when I get laughed at, like it puts me at ease and I'm like, all right, I can do that, but I can't do any other form of public speaking. That's so interesting. Like teaching a class I'd be, cause you're not getting that. It's like a visceral feedback. So you're like, yes, I got them.

When you're just like spreading an idea, I would go nuts being like, is there, does this make any sense? You know, and then you have all these, you know, these people and the people are bored in class too. That would just kill me to see someone like, kind of like, oh,

So, yeah, I got it. I hadn't thought about that laughter thing. That's a that's a unique thing to the comedic experience. Did you ever make your class laugh? I'm sure you made your class. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I'm not there to make them laugh. I mean, I'll tell a joke along the way. It'll come to me or it'll be an old one that I've used before. Oh, yeah. You got canned crowd work. Yeah. And then they're also, you know, they can raise their hands and ask questions and make comments and I can play off of that.

And there is feedback. I don't think anything like what you get when you're in that comedy routine thing. Yeah, it's kind of visceral. There's like a visceral element. It's kind of nice.

So I'm good. Okay, dude, I think you did a great job watching Glenn show. I would tell everyone I get, I don't have any, you know, I don't have the, uh, the power of Oprah, but if people do listen to me about books, I have, I have a small, I'd like a grain of sand of Oprah's book club power. So I give it double total double thumbs up. And I think, you know, you'd be a fool not to read it.

Well, I hope the book does well. So far, so good. I mean, I'm not breaking any records, but the reviews have been, on the whole, very positive. And it's been widely noticed, and I get a lot of positive feedback from people.

yeah people like you so i'm hopeful nice man well hopefully you know hopefully i can get it out to a couple more people because it was really i've read the other memoir you mentioned the uh born again with chuck colson i like oh read that whole book from there and i just i'm on a memoir frenzy right now where i'm reading as many of them as i can to try to get you know the big answers to see if i can maybe figure out this age-old question that i brought up before of like sensual pleasure over like some sort of higher order and right now you know

Well, I'm more proud of you. Thank you so much. Right now, it's just me masturbating in a hotel. So that's all I got. I don't have the rock star lifestyle. But thank you so much, Glenn. We can edit the last part out. I'm sorry. I didn't want to ruin it. But thank you so much for doing this. Really, I think you are one of the best people. It's like you're one of my top people to go to. And it's kind of like catch information because I know it's not like doesn't have that ideological capture that I think 99% of other stuff on the Internet has. I'll tell you this.

So I trained with a guy. He's a good guy. He has a little gym. And another of his clients is Nick. So Nick's going to be at one of your shows either tonight or tomorrow night because he follows you and you and Shane. Nice. And he said, I heard you mentioned Matt and Shane. And he was so excited about it. He said, they like you, man. Yeah.

And I know you, you know, he's happy to know the guy. Oh, that's so funny. So if he's come to the show that I come to, I'll, I'll introduce you to him. Absolutely. That'd be awesome. I'm excited. Again, I can't wait. He's a great guy. He loves his kids. And I love that about him that, you know, he's a high school teacher, very modest guy. I just trying to keep his kids interested in this big thing. Now is that they have to put their phones in the phone holder when they come into the classroom and they get them back after the end of, that's awesome. You know,

But Nick's a good guy. Nice, man. Hopefully I get to meet him. Thanks again. Okay. Appreciate you.