#450 – Bernie Sanders Interview
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The following is a conversation with bernie Sanders sender from vermont and two time presidential candidate both times as the underdog, who, against the long odds, captivated the support and excitement of millions of people, both on the left and the right. And now a quick few second mention. Sponsor, check them out in the description is the best way to support this podcast.

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This is a treatment podcasts to support IT. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now dear friends, here's berny centres.

Growing up did everything you be a politician?

No million years.

Yeah, I know that you hate talking about yourself, which is rare for a politician. I would say, what's your philosophe behind that? You like talking about the issues.

You know, everybody talks about themselves about me, know, nice guy, not a nice guy. What, you know, politics should be about as the issues facing the people of our country, the people of the world, and how we gona address that.

The that said, there's an interesting aspects to your life story. For example, in one thousand nine hundred sixty three, you are very active in the civil rights movement, got arrested even for a protesting segregation chicago, and you attended the the famous march on washington where M O K gives I have a dream speech.

What was that like? Ordinary took a bus right down with fellow students in the city, chicago IT was the zillions people there. I'm not sure if he was the first moment of a been in washington in my life, but IT was still IT was a very impressive moment. And what he was talking about, what people very often forget about, that IT was not only racial justice with jobs, jobs and justice, that was the name of that rally. And what influences have I, you?

what? What do you learn about the way he, a enacted change in the world?

King was a very impressive guy, more impressive, I think, than people think that he was. And what he did is he created his movement from the bottom on up somewhere. He develops real organization, grassroots organization, which put pressure on communities and officials to end segregation, to open up voting patterns.

And I think what has to also be remembered about king, which is really quite extraordinary, is, you know, he won the noble peace prize, and with all, you're great, you're wonderful. But then to the end of his life, he took on london Johnson on the war, vietnam. And as soon as he did that, suddenly the editorial pages throughout america, they established from papers no longer as what he was so great.

In fact, the message sent out your black deal with civil rights, don't worry about foreign policy, will take care of that. But he said, you know, if I talk about peace and nonviolence, I can sit back and allow what's going on in the end to continue without speaking. Incredible urge to do that.

And by the way, when he was successful inside at A H, fighting for the rights of asme workers, garbage guys to live at the garbage, who were treated terribly, low wages. But working conditions that do get out is what the right to form a union. That's when I got killed.

So on the war front, one of the things that people don't often talk about your work in politics, you gave what I think is A A truly brave speech on on the iraq war. And in two thousand, too, I believe you voted not on the a resolution, you voted not on the patriot. And you basically predicted very accurately what would happen if we're going to iraq. What is you're thinking at the time behind those speeches, behind voting no on the patriot on the iraq resolution.

and maybe ironically, came out of maybe the warn vietnam and the ease and lies that people told we went into vietnam under a ly. We're lost close to sixty thousand americans, millions of people in the vietnam, cambodia died is resulted that see you think twice about IT and the warn, uh, iraq you had of people like the chain and others telling us all they have nuclear weapons on all that up is the only way we can resolve the issue. I didn't believe IT I didn't agree with that any right turns out historical ah I was right.

What's the way to fight this thing that a marn is the king try to fight, which is the military .

industrial complex and the where we are nation what are you almost uniquely in congress talk about is the fact that we are moving legs to an alcoholic form society, and not a lot of people, family, what that term, but what IT means. We talk about allegations in russia, her own, put in the surrounding by the oligos.

Well, guess what would you happen in the united states? So what you have right now is an economy with more concentration of ownership than we've had hard. That means what its agricultural, transportation, health care, whatever IT may be. Few and few are massively launch. Corporations control lers produced and the Prices we pay.

And then you look at our political system and its we don't talk about IT, what is the reality of the political system today and that is that billionth are spending huge amounts of money to buy this election in trumps campaigning. A three, a multibillionaire ending over two hundred million dollars, three people. Democrats have their billionaire, not quite as concentrated, but at the end of the day, billion's play an enormous role in terms of electing politicians and in washington, in determining what legislation gets seen and not seen.

But it's not just single billion airs as companies with lobby as you got IT.

Let me give you one example. Lobby sts. We pay in the united states by far the highest Prices in the world for prescription drugs.

So I should work in hot on with some success. Take a wild and crazy guess. How many libyans are there from the drug companies in washington, dc?

Over thousand. Over thousand.

There are all one hundred members of the senate, four hundred and thirty five members of the house, five hundred and thirty five members of congress. There are eighteen hundred well paid lobby as representing the drug companies, including formal leaders of the republican democratic party. That is why one of the reasons why we paid the highest Prices in the wealth describe military induction complex volte door.

People go from the military into the general dynamics, into lucky mountain and the other large companies. And what we see there is an institution in the pentagon. We spent a trillion dollars a year on the pentagon. IT is the only federal agency that cannot is not able to submit to an independent order IT. So if you think there's not massive fraud in waste and cost overruns, independent gon, you'd be sorely mistaken.

Giving most politicians are corrupt in accepting the money or is the system corrupters is a bit of both.

If the crypt means that you here's ten thousands vote this way doesn't work like that. Very, very occasionally, very, very rare. That's corruption.

What happens is that if you are in a campaign, and right now, the amount of money that people have to raise running for city, ohio, you talking about fifteen thousand doll thought the donations you're gonna be surrounding yourself with, people have the money going to go five thousand dollar and said, such a, see, you're surround yourself with those people say, oh, these are my problem. This is what I need. This is I need a tax break for billion as boba ba, see, you become, you live in that world.

They owe your financial support. They are in a sense, your political base see a very cognizant of what you do, uh, in terms of not upsetting. So it's not corruption in the sense of people you know taking envelops with, you know you dream money to vote a certain way that very, very rarely, if ever, happens IT is the power of big money to make a politicians dependent on those box.

And that's why, you know what, I rent for president. But I probably maybe most bad of there is the fact that we receive millions and millions of campaign contributions. I beaching twenty seven box of piece a in twenty six.

Have companies lobby ever tried to buy you, try to influence you?

We don't welcome them into our office. I do deal with these guys, but it's usually on a compress tional time, so they don't come in to my office very often telling me their problems.

So how do we fix this system? How do we get money out of politics?

This is that, you know, like many other issues, we don't have to reinvent the wheel here. IT exists in other countries. Uh, if you go to, you know, every country has their own election system, but nobody has a system where a billion as can spend unlimited some some money through super packs to elect the cat is of their choice.

So first thing you got to do and and and you know one of the things like I found that the more important the issue, the less discussion there is, the less of put the issue is, the more of the discussion there is a number of years ago, the united states supreme court, in one of its more pathetic, uh, decisions, pass the the citizens united decision. What citizens united decision said is you're a multi billionaire, want the freedom. You're a free person in a free country, you want the freedom to buy the government.

And how terrible IT would be to deny you the freedom to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a campaign to elect the candles. And I said, that's the that's your freedom and that's what citizens who idea is about. We ve got to end that.

Uh, in a my view, we moved the public funding of elections. That means you want to run for governing. You want to run for show that you have some support, get you know five dollar contributions from x number of people to show you you you not a flake, you have some support.

And government will pay certain amount more, and they will be eliminated amount of money that can be spent. So we will be a real you can run against me and i'm outspend you ten to one. That's what we should be moving toward my home.

How do we make that happen? There's so much money in the system, in the politicians o to the people who paid for their election. He does have to come from the very top of century sort of a really strong, popular populist president.

But you raise exactly the question, if I am getting a huge amount of money from billionaire, you think i'm going to go out and out? I think billionaire should not be involved in buying elections. I doubt that very much. So what you're gonna need and you tell me if i'm missing something, but I pay attention, you don't hear either or the major candidates talking about that. I should do.

I think what happens is when an individual politician speaks out about if they get punished. But I think this a popular idea. So if a lot of them speak out, that's why if IT came from the top of a president, was using a very large platform to basically speak out, IT provides a safety blanket for the other politicians to get in all out .

of the system. But there has to be a kind of a mass movement and IT with people understand that you are republican, democrat. You, the conservative who really believes that we are democracy.

When billionth can spend you ten tens, millions of dollars to buy elections. So IT is a very popular issue. It's important, right? We need political leaders to be speaking out on that, but we need a grassroots women to say.

With somebody y's at a town meeting, you're running for the center, you're uniting for the house. What if you, on citizens, are you prepared the vote, overturn that decision and remove the public funding of elections? extraordinary.

Arly important. So many of your policy proposals are quite radical.

I like to differ OK too. Well.

they are popular. So what I mean is relative to what the way other party speaker, this usually a little bit more moderate. So from everything you've learn from politics is a Better to go sort of radical. Maybe you can come up with a different word verses a more moderate, safe.

ambiguous kind of polls about love. We talked about one. This should be very important. Money in politic, money getting money out of big, money out of politics. He is got a radical idea.

Well, I mean, yeah, I it's a popular idea, idea that makes sense. But in order to implemented and actually make IT happen requires A, I mean, to flip the system upside down, right? In that sense, radical.

In that sense, radical. But if you go to walk down the street here and you say, do you think billionaire should be able to spend this money as they want to buy politicians, I would say nine and ten people say, that's crazy. That's not what american supposed to be about.

So that says it's certainly not record. Talk about health care. I go out on the street, we do a poll i've done.

The polling is health care a human right? Should every american be able to go to a doctor when they need, regardless of their income? You know what people say outside by eighty five, ninety percent of people side. Of course, the idea that health care is a human right available to all exists like in every major country on earth, except the united states. So you're here with me in willington for mot, right?

He got a call, go fifty miles not to canada, walk the canadian, you know, walking to canada, and ask people, when you go to a hospital, how much a custody, which kind of build no, say you what do you talking about? Doesn't go to anything, doesn't just nal. That's the case in virtually every country in the europe.

So the idea that health care should be available to all ah that there should be no ado pocket expense because it's a human right uh is widespread around the world and very much agreed to in this country. Bottom line is that because of our corrupt political system, we have a healthcare system designed not to provide healthcare to all people, to make huge profits for the drug companies and international companies. And that is what's happening. And we got to change that system. So i'm a strong advocate, and i've LED the effort on care for.

okay, sock, while medicare for all, if you could snap your fingers today and improvement the best possible health care system for the united states of america. What would that look like?

What we have a pretty good system, not great, but a pretty good system in medicare. So it's it's there for the elderly. Lindon Johnson person, six years IT is being chopped away by the private insurance companies through medicare advantage.

But if you strengthen medicare and you do way with account of doctorate les, the seniors now have to pay, and you do way with others love, just say, basically right now you are senior in america. Got any dog do you want? Uh, you know, when you're in the hospital, medicate will pay the entire bill.

If you expand medicare to cover a dental hearing edition, which IT doesn't now come up, you do all of those things. And then the next thing you do is say, okay, to be eligible for medica now you have to be uh, sixty five. First year were going to lower to fifty five.

Them will lower to forty five. Them will lower to thirty five. They will have everybody in the system.

So I think in a four or five B A period, you can strengthen medicare and have everybody in the system. And when you do that, this is not just me talking. Number of studies have pointed this out. When you take the profit mode of out of IT from the insurance companies and the drug companies, you can end up providing quality care of all people and no more than we're spending right now. Because right now we are spending twice as much per personal else care as the people of any other nation in incredibly wasted system.

So the way to pay for the system is to increase taxes. But you're saying if you cut that cost and increase the taxes.

you're saying, I ve my share of thirty second ads attacking me on this bird, Sanders wants to raise your taxes on healthcare stroke in a progressive way. But right now, do you have health insurance? Yes, okay, somebody's paying your health insurance.

IT depends if you are working. Most people get their health insurance to their jobs. okay? So if you're working for a large company, your employer is paying health entrance that comes out of your wages.

Health care cost in amErica very high in your employee will tell you honestly, look, I can give you more than a three percent wage increase because I got a ten percent increase in your health care. What you want that or for your union, negating, you know what i'll say, hey, you want decent wages going up to cut back on your health. That's what every union has to deal with you every, every negotiating session.

So we are paying for IT through employers at a pocket. We pay through to medicate, medicate the terns administration at such up. Uh, what I am proposing is really not radicals to what exist in canner and of the countries. IT is publicly funded like the police. The pointless and like library is all like publicly education.

Is this publicly funded in a progressive way? So right now, rather than paying out to be your own pocket, if you are, uh, a family, just say yourself, employed right now and you are a know you want to have a complicated in your wife IT could cost you fifteen, twenty thousand all of year in insurance cost. Well that's all eliminated.

Will you have to pay more in taxes? Because you will. Maybe IT depends on your income level, but IT could be that you be paying twelve thousand and eight more in taxes, but not twenty thousand dollars more in premiums, m code payments and deductables you save money. So it's paying taxes rather than paying money to the insurance company, you got a Better deal through the tax system.

So the most painful thing in today's system is the surprise bills. The number one caused a bankrupt. And the the psychological pain that comes from that just worrying, stressed in debt, you got IT and just basically afraid constantly of getting sick because you don't know if insurance is gonna ver IT and if you're not insured, you don't know how much is going to cost. So you're not going to go to the hospital even if there's something wrong with you, if there's pain and all that. So you just live in a state of fear, psychological fear, that's the number one problems is not just financial gal.

Look, and I think you said IT very well, I chain of the committee that deals with this stuff. So I talked to a lot of dockers and doctors in per month, and all of this country told me that they were standing. People walk into their offices much sicker than they should have been in the doctor of White.

Each company is six months when you first, you know, you should felt your symptoms and he said, well, you know, I I have a high deduct by the ten thousand deduct by, I don't have any money to pay among insured. Some of those people don't make IT other people. And this is what is totally crazy.

They end up in a hospital, huge e expense to the system rather than getting the care they need when they needed IT. So that is how give you another example of that. We paid the highest Prices in the world for prescription drugs.

One out of four americans can't to food to drugs their doctors prescribe. So you walk into the doctor's office, they say, okay, lets you got this start. You don't thing, here's a prescription you can afford to fill IT what happens? You get sick.

He end up an emergence which is extremely expensive proposition OK. We yet up in the hospital, you know, rather than dealing with the problem when occurs and and what is not talked about, you I mentioned dirty how we don't talk about some of the major issues. The estimate is some sixty thousand people in amErica die unnecessarily because they can't get to a doctor when they need because of financial reasons.

And you want here, even crazy. One out of four people who are cancer treatment in this country either go bankrupt or deplete their financial resources of their family. Your point is right.

You know, if somebody diagnoses you with cancer, you scared to death, you worried about how you live, you gona die, what's going to happen? Then on top of that, you got to worry about what the, your family goes bankrupt. How insane and cruel is that.

So to me, you know, I think health care is what unites us all. Everybody has family, they get sick, get born, die. We all want care, and we all have got to come together to create a system that works for all of us, not just to drag companies with the .

insurance companies such just so many stories, and not even the horrific stories is countless orrible c stories, but just basic stories. Of course, like my friend, a doctor, Peter attia, has the story where he happens to be a wealthy so he can afford IT. He had to take a sun to the emergency room, and the sun was dehydrated, and the bill was six thousand dollars.

They just did a basic test and gave an I V basic thing. And he has really good insurance. And the insurance covered four thousand dollars of this. Who hate the at the end, paid two thousand dollars for a basic emergency room visit. And there's a lot of families for whom that one visit for such a simple thing would be just financially and you .

know what people know that and you know what they say, you know something I don't feel well today. Yeah something wrong. I am going to go to the emergency rule because I don't want a six thousand of people.

And what happens? He had insurance that paid two thirds of the right. yes.

So what else if he didn't know what arms, if he didn't have money, he be heard by books like this for the rest of his life. So IT, IT is a disgusting system. IT is an inhumane system.

Uh, but see, on the insurance companies in the world, companies are very powerful. They make a lot of campaigns. Ribulose have a lot of lobby ous than we are where we are. But you know, I think, you know the american people want fundamental changes them.

So that's another good example, a really popular idea that is not implemented because of the money.

And I don't tell you that not all of that. None only is that not implemented, that because of money, it's not even discussed. So i'm saying here and no one disputes me, we are spending twice as much per person on health care and yet eighty five million americans are uninsured or under insured and our life expectancy is lower than virtually every of the major culture of do you think that might be initial that we be discussing again.

if a single politician discusses that, they get punish ed for so there needs to be a mass movement. And probably, I mean, from my perspective, has to come from the very top, has to come from the president. And the president has to be a popular president where they don't care about the parties.

Would the rich people? They just speak out because they know a popular message and they know the right thing. So speaking of that, you had a historic campaign run for present twenty sixteen and uh in the eyes of many people, mine included, you were screwed cover by the dnc as the especially the wicky league e emails showed what's you're just looking back feelings about that in your angry at your set?

Yeah of course i'm angry and of cost of said but you know, when you take on in this case to democratic establishment who have controlled their party forever, the money interest in democratic party, you know you're taking on corporate amErica when you're taking on the corporate media and when you calling for a political revolution that creates the government that works fool and not just the few you know the opposition is going to be extraordinary um but what I am extremely proud of from that campaign twenty twenty as well is that we took on the annointed candidate of the establishment and we showed when I will, despite the act, the entire establishment I had in the senate, I had one support, there were fifty democrats, I had one supporter.

I no government supporting me, I think maybe a few people in the house but we took on the whole political establishment and we did. You got millions of votes the ideas that we brought forced uh um or ideas that they had to eventually deal with someone way or another. If you look at the american rescue plan, which should not proud of help, right? Uh, during the midst of coffee, a lot of the ideas that we fought for were implemented in that building. I want to make them obviously permanent.

And you almost one and a lot of people thought that you would win against. Now trump.

I think we I think we were of um no I think job is a very know I think this will be crazy between you and me but he is a smart politician and he is appealing to a lot of the anger of that working class people feel and you know what, working class people should feel angry, but they should make sure that their anger is directed in the right direction and not against people even worse off than nail, which is what demagogue is like.

Trump, uh, always do. So you know, I think we had I went around the country then, and now we have a lot of support from working class people who understand that there is something wrong. And this is an incredible fact that no one talks about.

And when I asked you a question, are you ready like a cup? Here we go. Over the last fifty years, there has been a massive increase in worker productivity as a result of technology, right? Everyone agrees, and I don't know what exactly what is. But the work today is producing a lot more than the work of fifty years of doing something similar. Is the work at today in real inflation account of the dollars making more money than network or fifty years ago?

Well, there is a lot of close arguments there, but your point is well taken. It's either the same or a little bit high erm or a little below are depending on the statistics, IT has not increased significantly and the wealth and inequality has increased.

So you would think that if a worker is producing a lot more, that worker would be Better or would be working less or hours in such a that hasn't been the case. And what has happened in that fifty years is, according to the ran CoOperation, there has been a fifty trillion trillion with a day redistribution of wealth, the bottom ninety percent at the top one percent. He got C.

E, O, today, making three hundred times more than their workers. You got three people on top pony more wealth in the bottom half of american society. So that's why people are angry. And they worried that their kids will have a lowest the end that of living than they in wealthiest country in the history of the world. So there's a lot of anger out there, and I think we tap some of that anger in a constructive way, essentially saying, you know what, we don't need so few to have so much in wealth and power. Let's distribute and more fairly in america.

I got to get back to twenty. Extinct is such a historic moment. So there's a lot of fans of yours, that one is you to keep fighting because you forgave in the end, the establishment enjoy them in support and your fans wanted to keep fighting for takeover, for progressive takeover, the democratic party, the you just look back and had to do IT all over again. What would you do different?

But by the way, in terms we would take over the democratic body, we did trying. We ran, you know, telesis. This is now the atterley general a of the city of messages. A great job really want to understand turny journals in the country and Keith was then a member of congress and we were in Keith to become the head of dnc and the establishment from the present of the united states on down one crazy and they made by a few votes not a whole lot um so it's look you you face you know that's the exact same position that many of us are in right today.

So people say, why did you support Taylor's clinton? We have what's the alternative of Donald? I think Donald troubles extremely dangerous person trying to undermine american democracy, so I can't support him.

You know, here we could not obviously, if you use a very, very different in mind, uh but that in that moment, you know that's where politics becomes really tRicky and that is easy. And uh you know sometimes you have to do things that you're not really all that excited about. But I think IT was right to try to do what I could to prevent trump from getting, uh uh, elected. And in twenty twenty, I did the same with biden. We had more success with by and we have well.

there is a interesting story about a long time coming meeting between you and obama in a twenty eighteen, I believe. So are you. Robin half, who was a former deputy campaign manager, wrote a great book, I would say, about you called the fighting soul on the road with bernis enters, and he tells many great stories, but one of them is your meeting with obama.

And he says that obama told you, bernie, I wish I could do that. Obama impression, bernie, you're an old testament profit, a moral voice for our party, giving us guidance. Here's the thing though, profits don't get to be king.

Kings have to make choices. Profits don't. Are you willing to make those choices? Basically, obamas making the case that you have to sort of a moderate your approach in order to win. So was was obama right?

Look again, that's why politics is very, very fascinating. You know, sometimes you can run and lose, and you really win if your goal is not just individual power by transforming society. One of my heroes you mentioned talk about love the king june, who is one of my heroes, another one of my heroes as u gene vict. Depth that bring a bill.

yeah. yes. Okay, for many reasons.

yes. Alright, debs, many listeners may not know who debth was. Debs was a union organizer.

Nearly nineteen hundreds help from the american railway union. Ran for president, I think, five times. Ran last time while he was in a jail cell because of his opposition.

The world war one got a million votes doing that. Debs lost badly in every race. Study in in one thousand nine hundred and thirty two Frankland dollar was will ran for president.

And much of what rosel ended up doing was at least some of what debts had talked about. Debt helped lay the ground work for ideas. So sometimes you can lose in win if you're into transforming a society.

What my view is where I disagree with 爸妈， is I think you have got to raise consciousness among ordinary people. And when people know what's going on and are prepared in an organized way to fight for change, they can make incredible changes. And we've seen that in recent years.

You know, a today we take for grant to do what we have, a woman running for president of the united tes. I'm supporting, uh, we have had other women running for president. We have women governors and centers. Not so many years ago in the united city center were ninety eight men. Two women are.

Even before the nineteen, twenty was when women got the right about, how did that change? How did women were all in society change? You changed because women and their male and I stood up and forth, gay rights, older up to remember then anybody I knew who was gay, you think they would talk about IT come out about IT.

Now they wouldn't. That's changed. Um we have seen, you know, in terms of civil rights, massive changes. Uh, change happens when people at the grass roots level demand that we talked about a healthcare a moment o we will get universal medicare for all when millions of people make IT clear that's what they want. So I believe politics, lots of the grass roots level, and that's how you ve got to bring about change me.

So just go back to obama, though, in many ways he too was a singular historic figure in american politics who has brought about a lot of change, is a symbol I think we'll remembred for a long time. Uh, what do you, what do you admire most about obama?

Well, you know, I know went our best friends, but I know well. And which out once in a while first we don't underestimate what IT was a in two thousand and eight to be the first black president in history of this country uh and I think few would deny that he is an extraordinary ily intelligent guy, a very, very articular one.

The best speakers there is amErica and that he in his family and again, it's a lot harder than IT looks he in his family for eight years that his wife Michelle and his kids uh really held that office in in in a way that earned, I think, the respect of the market. People people disagree with specially um so he deserves and don't ever don't underestimate um I think you know years ago there were people set a black president in our lifetimes. Never gonna en can't happen to racist the country he did IT and that is a huge accomplishment.

Uh and I think you know he has had some significant achievements uh, in his presidential uh, he and I you know did disagree is an on a number of issues. I think he will tell you, I think his public stance is that yeah if you had to start all over gun, he would do medicare for all single player. But where we are right now, the best thing to do is the affordable care act. Now we disagree on that, and we disagree another things. But you know, I think he deserves an enormous amount of credit for what he is accomplished.

And he, like you, also give a dam good speech, apples in the iraq war before before running for. And that takes courage.

yes.

But then IT also shows that, once again, to office is not so easy to oppose or to work against the military industrial complex.

IT is very hard. People who not fully appreciate how powerful the establishment is, whether IT is the health care industry ah, whether it's the military industrial complex, whether it's the fossil fuel industry, these people have unlimited amounts of money. They have very small lobbied and washing the, and they are very, very greedy people they want at all.

I have to ask you ball capitalism, the person cons, so you wrote a book, it's so good to be angry about capitalism that is a uh thora rigorous criticism of, I would say, hyper capitals, a certain kind of capitalism that uh you argue that we are uh existing in today in the united states. But a lot of people would attribute to capitalism all the amazing technological innovations over the past seven plus years that have contributed to increase in quality of life in A G D P, in a decreased in poverty, decreasing, uh, informal ality, increase in a expected life life expectancy. So what are the sort of, how do you see the tension, the process of capitalism and the coins of capitalism?

You know, some of my european friends, they say, you berny in the united states, you considered to be very radical if you were here in, you know, france or denmark is some place you become a mainstream left guy. Not all that radical. So this is what I think, I mean, I think the best that we can do right now, where we are right now, is to create a society which does two things.

IT encourages innovation, but at the same time, IT make sure that all people in a wealthy nation have a decent standard of living in some countries. If you look at scandinavia in the shocks people, because we don't talk about this role. So in scandal has been the case.

You know denmark in in no way for years that people have healthcare that standard big end up, not hospice, of what they're play. You have in this shocks people in amErica right now, we have people will get one week, two weeks off paid vacation. Sometimes we get nothing.

You know that there are people that they have no vacation. You know in in germany, you get six weeks paid vacation and other holidays as well. People are shocked by that.

In amErica we don't have paid family and medical leave. The only mage country do you know other countries you know your wife get sick yesterday home with her. Uh your kids get sick, not a big deal.

You get a certain amount of paid family in medical leave cause the prescription drugs are far more affordable. So what you want to do is create what it's called a social safety. That means I don't care what your income is.

Of course you are in of health care is a human right, of course you enough housing that is affordable. Of course the your kids are gonna great quality education from child university without much cost. You know, every country has a little bit different, but their country is in the world right now.

I think in germany, I think the college is now tuition free of, I recall, for for obvious reasons, they want to have the best educated workforce they can. So in terms of government playing a role in a civilized democratic society of providing all basic needs, health care, education, housing, uh, retirement benefits, yes, that is what we've to do. Now does that mean that that the government is to run every mom and pop store on the corner? Of course not.

You want innovation. You want to. You want to go about, start business, produce a product. Good luck to make money. But on the other end, in terms of him making money, we want you to be able to do that, come up with good products, good services. But I think you should end up with one hundred billion dollars.

And I thought, and you know what's funny, I had the international view with bill gates, who is, I think, the third wealthiest guy in the country, struggling behind the musical, and he's only worst, one hundred plus a billion, but he gets by. And I said to him, bill, he was posed to ask me questions. I asked him the question. Tell me something.

You are you an innovator with microsoft all itself? Did you know that you've become a multibillionaire? And with that motivation, that one moderate? And he said, no, and I believe he was honed.

See, I love doing what I love programme. And I was a kid. He started doing that. He loved that. He was motivated by, do you think that there are scientists out there who work in day and night trying to develop drugs to deal with alzheimer's or cancer, that they motivate all what I come up with, the drug gum, become a billionaire. I think, you know, we want to reward success, find, but you don't need a billion dollars.

We want people to get satisfaction from what they accomplished, the work they doing, whether it's cleaning the street with developing a new now drug. So I think we have gone a little bit too far. And you're right.

And talking about the book was an attack on, I called you called hyper capitalism or uber capitalism. But right now, and this is not an american issue, this is a global issue. You know, it's not an accident that musk is over there. And sorry, arabia, ia talking to the, you know trillion our families in the middle. These guys are what putin and his friends, you got a probably not more than twenty five ten thousand extraordinary wealthy families who have unbelievable economic power, over seven billion people on this planet.

What elon mosque is action is just in case because he's investing all the money back into the businesses. So um I think there is a baLance to be struck. And you just spoke to IT, which is we can still celebrate even big companies that are bringing wealth to the world, that are building cool stuff, that are improving quality of life. But we can question of why is IT that the working class does not have a living wage? He any cases as of trying to find that baLance .

that's that is the look I am no gray friend, a of ella must especially in the role that displaying right now and from campaign. But is he a billion? Ky, of course.

Is, does he work like a dog? Of course he does. Does he come up with these incredible innovations in companies? Yes, he does.

does. But you know, even in terms of encouraging innovation, I would hope that we are focusing on the important issues. I would love to see great innovative and figure out how we build affordable housing.

That we did come up with, the great drugs that we need to solve, many the terribles illnesses, or that play people climb, ate change for god six, right? Do we need innovation? You know, we making good some progress in this country.

Should we do more? What kind of technologies out there can really cut back on on on carbon, uh, emissions? So yeah, I hope we focus on some of the most important issues that impact humanity. But, you know, reward innovators. I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem when three people end up only mobile to the bottom half of american social.

Maybe you can briefly speak to something you tweet recently about the donor trump going to mardonale and the minimum wage and believe of seven and a half dollars. Can you just speak to that tweet?

Look, nothing. No, from the innovation that have called the photo opportunity. I don't want to to in my life.

So you've got to a place he puts on a nebran. He got old Donald drop just in other mcDonald's work up right? Anyway, he was blind.

There is for up. That's fine. CBA harassers in both Caroline are handed out food to people who are victims of the dead, to hurricane.

fine. That's what politicians stood. But some reporter asked them, they said their mr.

Jump, uh, are you for raising the minimum wage? And that was a fair question because you got, I don't know how many, but many, many thousands of mcDonald's workers in millions of other american workers right now are trying to get by on nine, ten, eleven box. On our federal minimum wage is seven and a quarter.

You have people working in mcDonald's right now for sure, who are working to thirteen box now. So the report said, how, you know, what do you think about raising the central room wage and is all these are great workers of love, but found so what? He didn't answer the question.

Well, I think that in the richest country in the history of the world, if you work forty hours a way, you should not be living a baby. And that means we should have a federal minium wage, not absurdly seven and a quarter now, but in my view, seventeen dollars an hour. When I solve all the economic problems for working class people. No, I want. It'll help. It'll help.

Since running for president, you've often been attacked, especially from the right about being worth, I believe, two million dollars and owning a three houses so for my perspective, the answer to that is most of your wealth has been earned from writing books and selling those books, and you are one of most famous politicians in the world. And so your wealth in the context, in comparison to other people of that fame level and other politicians, are actually quite modest. So what's your response usually to those attacks?

Do I own three residences? Yeah, I don't. I'd live here and willing to promote. We live in a middle class in neighbour, nice house.

I guess what? I'm a united states senator, and I own a home in washington, D. C. As do most centers.

You know, you live a year after when I first went, actually, when I was in congress for sixteen years, I rented all the time, but I got elected. Okay, got a sixty a term. You know what? Let's buy a house.

So we want a house. And guess what, like many thousands of people in the state for month, I have a summer camp. It's a nice, unlike champagne.

That's IT. Now how do I get the money you're write? I wrote to best selling books, including this book on capitalism, with dual times best selling per well. And a also another book was the youth book, and that I made one hundred and seventy five thousand year, uh, and that's more less how I became the zillionaire I am.

I should also mention that sometimes the word mention is used. I think your residences are .

quite modest class, very nice house.

So when you started in politics, I read you are worth one thousand and one hundred dollars. Not much. Yeah, that much.

Is right. Has a the increase in wealth a change? Your ability to relate to the working class?

What's a good question? And I obviously growing up in a working class family, a has been maybe the most signaling significant aspect of my posits. I grew up without money in a family that live in a rent control department in broke in new york.

So that has impacted me. I'll tell you, I don't really give a damn about money. I drive a car that's a eleven years old and as an old car and money, he is my jewellery.

It's a solar watch and my wedding ring about IT. I don't never relax. Watch would not be interested in IT, but i'll tell what is has impacted me.

My wife, who also wrote in a work in class family, will tell the same. We don't worry, you raise that issue. You know, if we have to go to the doctor, our kids have to go to the doctor.

We go to the doctor and don't spare a lites. boring. I used that. This was the time I have to worry about how to pay my electric. Al, I don't worry about that anymore.

So what has happened? That stress, that economic, just of not worrying about a financial disaster that's gone IT. And that is enormous.

I you know maybe as much or more than any other member of the senate work hard, not only four, but with working class people and chairman the committee ideals of labor issues. We have been involved probably in dozens of strikes, all of this country, but on picket lines. So, you know, I do my best is a very easy trap to fall into. You can get the separated from ordinary people in their struggles to do. I try as hard as I can not to do that.

Sometimes people say the money by happiness. I think I agree with you that worry sort of being able to fill up your car and not worry about how much is going to cost, or be able to get food for dinner and not worry about how much is gonna cost. Or even you, i've been very, I been poor most of my life. I ve been very fortunate recently to have enough wealth to not worry about healthcare, to have insurance and be able to afford an emergency room visit. And that worry is just such a giant lift off .

your shoulders. thanks. I think I remember, even though I saw this change in myself, when I used to go at a do the cross y shot my bike does a lot of the cooking, I do the grocery shop, I used to look at the Prices of very, I, I, I do that less.

Now what help? So what cost fifty cents more for this kind stuff? So what? But that's a luxury you have when you have to worry about that.

And I have to worry about that. But your point is, again, to me, I don't like big fancy cars or big fancy homes. Don't go on. My wife will tell you we've not been on a real vacation for god. D knows how long as I work pretty.

But the major thing about having money, which is enormously what is just what you said? Uh, I don't have to worry if somebody, my family get sick, uh, I don't have to worry about that. I don't have to worry about putting food on the table, paying the mortgage. So that's what money has done.

Okay, let me ask you about the future of the democratic party. So one of the biggest impacts you've had is you've been the fuel, the catalyst for the increase of the progress of caucus, the progressive movement within the democratic party um do you think that is the future? The progressives, even a democratic socialist leaders, will take over the party.

That is the most important question. Regional, to my mind, american politics. One of the successes that we've had, and i'm proud to have played rolling ss, is that if you go to the house of representatives right now, you will see almost a hundred members of the progressive caucus LED very well by a woman from washington.

Tribal chip pod does a great job. You know, it's people like Alexander a cossio quotas, uh, in the alana mar in many of many of them are Young, often women, people of color, and many of them come from working class backgrounds. So what we have been able to do in recent years elect a number of strong progressives who represent working families, very, very effective.

The struggle in the democratic party is between the corporate wing and the progressive wing. And you know, the corporate wing takes a whole lot of money. Who sees its solvent in getting a whole lot of money, a from belt individuals uh and you know large corporations and is not very vigorous, in my view, uh, in representing the needs of working class people.

If they were, we would have health care for all. We would have a minimum wage that was a living wage. We would not have a housing crisis. We would not have a tax system in which billions is playing an effective tax rate that is lower than a truck drive earners.

So I think one of the reasons that trumps had political success is he is not so much as idea as most working class people don't think we should get tax breaks to billion as or worry about the size of you on palomas genitor. Uh, what they are angry. People are angry and, uh, the democrats have not responded effectively to the anger.

So the struggle that we are waging right now is the future. The democratic party will be a party of the working class and represent working class issues with the a black, a vital attach or asia, whatever may be or will be a corporately dominated party. That's the struggle were in right now.

Did you consider running twenty twenty four? From my perspective, I would have loved that. If you're around, I think you would had a great chance of winning. Uh, not just the primary, but the the presidents.

I've about five minutes and the reason was we have a slogan in the progressive woman is not about me, it's about us. And you know I have taken on by who in my view on domestic issues has been quite strong with a really split the democratic party and and laid the groundwork for a easy trump Victory, and that I did not wanna.

So sometimes in life, and I know that a lot of your Younger people, pols, don't don't way with, you know, you gotta make choices which are painful. Uh, so I strongly supported by them because i'd like, i'd like this domestic record, just done some good things against a lot of opposition and i'm supporting calmet right now. Uh, but i'm doing my best to see that a dangerous guy like trump does not become president.

And the hope for you is that there will be future candidates that are popular, that are progressive. Me, ask your body. I'll see he has become on the most influential voices for the progressive cause in the united states.

You two had great conversation on your podcast. And in general, you work together. So what's to use most impressive about her? I really .

like alexa to a whole lot um he is a Young woman who comes from a working class background ah SHE helped her mother clean houses uh he was a bar tender um in the bronx, new york and i'm very proud of my campaign for president inspired that run and SHE ran on a progressive working class program and he took on one of the more powerful guys cry. He was pretty high up in the democratic party and he knocked down to us.

He had no money SHE did a very strong grass roots of IT and I appreciate that. So that's number one. I'd like what he stands for. She's incredibly smart and SHE has that certain Christmas that you know maybe a born with her maybe developed.

I know SHE a couple of years ago, he came up period from my test swith sometime SHE know her partner rally came up and and I were out the street and people can sorry, they said, oh, congress woman on SHE were smiled and he had an approached the people, which was beautiful and IT wasn't pony IT was real but to be a politician, you got not have a, you know, you could be a great intellectual, but you can't relate to people. SHE relates well to people. And so I think both from a personal perspective, from an intellect perspective, from an ideological perspective, SHE helped create the Green new deal concept.

They need to create jobs as we transform our energy system away from puzzle fuel, strong added for care for all workers. right? So i'm a big fan of Alexander.

What do you think is the most powerfully during impact you've had on american politics? Looking back, you've been in for quite a bit well.

you know, I know no, give you a singular. You know, I was mayor, the city, and proud of what we accomplished to you, proud my accomplishments. U.

S. Senator know when code was devastating this country and we had a massive economic downs. N chain of the budget community help right american rescue plan, which put a lot of money into people's pockets.

We got child poverty by forty percent per year, providing a child tax credit. We kept hospitals going. We kept colleges going, kept people from getting evicted. Help get public health out, that people getting the back since, you know, i'm proud of that. But at the end of the day, I think what I have shown is that the ideas skids back to the early part of this conversation, the ideas that I am talking about, our ideas that are widely supported, you know.

So no, donal troops, as our body sentences, a far left, you know, it's like on some kind of extreme, is coming up with ideas to nobody support everything that I talk about, raising them in wage health care for all a tax system which demands the billionaire their fair share. Those are all popular gest. But people didn't know you've got a run for president and have twenty thousand people come out to your rallies and win twenty three states.

This, well, maybe those eyes are, ideas are not so crazy after all. And we ve got to entertain the established ment doesn't like that. They really thought that I want to tell you.

And this is they amine, this is how they succeed, what they say lexis the world is the way IT is IT always will be this way. We got the wealth, we got the power and don't think of the anything else. This is, this is the way that is you you have no power.

Give up that. They don't say quite that way. But that's really what the intended and what we showed to guess what, in a running A, A, an outside of. We took on the democratic establish, we came close to winning IT, and we did in twenty three states. And the ideas that we talk to about, all the ideas that working class people, Young people.

believe in, yeah, you show that is possible to win. And that's an idea that will resonate for decades.

And out of that came dozens of canada. And the house was people on city council, people on state legislature who did win.

So we mention about the worry i've getting sick, the worry of life that many people in the working class are suffering from. But there is also the worry that we all experience of the fine lightness of life. Do you ponder your own mortality?

Are you faid? Are your eighty three IT does cover?

Of course.

All right. Yeah, of course I know. And are you afraid of IT? No, not afraid of this. What I am afraid of, I think, is informative. I have been knocked on what this is, what I think a reason of the healthy, with an exception.

I had a hot attack five years ago and would bloom me away, was that my body failed me for the very first time in my life that was studying to me that, you know, suddenly I was in a hospital. Bh, you know, I have a great deal compassion for people as we speak, or in nursing homes, have a hard time walking. Maybe your mental legality is slipped a little bit.

That stuff that's that's worries me. You know, we are all gonna die and you know that's that i'm not afraid of that. But that aspect of getting older, and they know that does consuming.

That said, your mind is as sharp as any politician that uh, i've ever heard and also just off mike. I should say they just the warmth they already and are deeply deely appreciate that just the human being. So you still got IT after all that after all those speeches, after all those are houses, after all of IT you distill the humility um and just the sharpness the weight is all there is a burning um yeah like I said, I wish you have run this year but um I also wish that there's future candidates .

and there will be I absolutely do what I think yeah I lot my leg in the idea that there are wonderful, really, really wonderful people ah who are now got involved in the political process that are fighting for justice that's a great legacy what is you .

hope about the future of this country, about the future of the world?

You know, sometimes one can become very cynical. You look at the terrible wars that are going on right now. You look at the divisiveness in this country, the ugly ss, the poverty, you look at climate change, you know, you get pressed from all that.

But I am lucky in the sense. And then i've had the opportunity. People often, what's what in spi? Do you keep gone? And I remember IT actually was in california, were really Christal.

Zed, well, is that a rally in the agricultural area of california? And we did a rally. IT was sunset.

Thousands of people around, and you looked around the crowd, and they were Young people, black and White and latin and asian american huge cross section are older people. And they all wanted to make amErica every year much Better country. And IT really moved everything I see that time, the time of just been on the campaign trail.

And you see great people, really beautiful people, who not interest in becoming billions as they want to improve life for the people in this country. So you know that that I am grateful that I you know you know sounds like a plata de. You know, it's not every politicians, but when you go out around the country, you know, you got a native american reservations and you got to factories and you see so many wonderful people, you know, I have been to see things that many others have not been. Every state in the country in the that inspired.

I share their optimism. I sure your optimism. Bernie been a fan for a long time. It's a great honor to speak you today.

Thank you so much. Thank you very much. What you're doing. Let me just say, what about you're doing? Okay, return tly the compliments.

Yeah you know I think um there is a growing the satisfaction with corporate media and not because it's fake news of the report is live all the time. That's nonsense. They don't.

But I think people want to hear folks really talk about in in a come manner about somebody very important issues which are not discussed uh, in corporate medium. I think because with you and some mothers are doing so, I thank you very much. So a very important services to the .

country and thank you for a mayor perspective of creating a wonderful time. I look forward to looking at the at the fall .

leaves walk around quite, and I create about the things.

okay. Thank you so much. morning. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this conversation with berny standards to support this podcasts, please, to cut our sponsors in the description.

And now let me leave you with the words from aristotle. The real difference between democracy and oligarch is poverty and wealth. Wherever men rule by reason of their wealth, whether they be few or many, that is not garci. And where the poor rule, that is democracy. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.