#423 – Tulsi Gabbard: War, Politics, and the Military Industrial Complex
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The following is a conversation with tosi gabbard, who was a long time democrat, including being the vice chair of the democratic national committee. SHE endorsed ed burning in twenty sixteen and biden in twenty twenty. SHE has been both loved and heavily criticize for her independent thinking and bold political stances, especially on topics of war and the military industrial complex.

SHE served in the U. S. Military for many years, achieving the rank of alterna kernel. And now this is the author of a new book called for love of country. And now a quick view.

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You've served in the U. S. Military for many years, achieving rank of lugano kernel. You were deployed in iraq in two thousand four and five k away, two thousand eight and nine. What lessons about life and about country have you learned from that experience of war?

So many central to those lessons learned? What was having my eyes open to the very real cost of all, of course, that I served in a medical unit during the first deployment at to iraq. IT was two thousand, five during the height of that war.

And unfortunately, we took a lot of casualties. We, across the entire us. Military, my gade that I deployed with was from the whole national guard. We had approximately three thousand soldiers who were Operating in in four different areas of iraq. And my first task every day was to go through a list of every injury, combat related injury that had occur red the day before in the country.

And I went through that list name by name, looking to see if any one of our nearly three thousand soldiers from um had been hurt in the line of duty, and then if seeing them on the list, tracking them down, where were they, were they getting the care they needed? Would they be able to get sufficient care to stay in country and and return to duty that I need to get them evacuated? Usually IT would be to military hospitals that at that time we're in launch in ramstein in germany and then from there getting them to either uh, broke army medical center, which here in texas that specialized in burn related injuries or too well to read and tracking them and their care until they were finally home with their families.

And IT never became a routine task. IT never became like, OK cool. Check the list, you know, kind of debt. The eyes across the tears IT IT was that daily confrontation with the reality of the cost of war. Friends of mine were killed in combat.

Experiencing first hand, that high human cost of war caused me, about twenty something year old from hawaii had had, had left my seat in the state legislature to volunteer to deploy with my brothers and sisters and in my unit to iraq, and so recognize the cost of war. I think, in two fundamental ways. Number one is the high human cost of all on our troops and on the people in the country where this war was being waged.

And also the cost on american taxpayers seeing then backus again, two thousand five, and recognizing K B R. Haliburton, one of the biggest defense contracting companies then. And I know that they are still very much in that business now dc.

Cheney being connected with that company at one point or another. But in our camp specifically, which was one of the larger ones, any rock at that time, there wasn't anything that happened in our camp that didn't have the K B R. Haliburton logo imprinted on IT.

We had a big shack looking place for atr meals. They called a dining facility a defect in the military, and they serve four meals a day. They brought in and they being kb.

r. hEllier. And they imported workers in from places like nepal and three lunches, and the Philippines come in and cook food and work at this stinting facility. I got curious about how much, how much IT costs assays taxpayers. And so I started asking around to the people, and I think at that time I was like, well, every time a soldier or a service number walks through the door, if I were to go in for breakfast and grab a banana, walk out, that's an automatic thirty five dollars per head per meal four times a day, thousands and thousands of people. And then we made friends, you know, there's a lot, there's a pretty large filippino community in lot of Philippo soldiers from what we made friends with, the Philippines.

Workers who were there, they would often go and like the back of the tense and set up their own like rice cookers and cook their own meals um which is where the real good food was but just started talking them and getting to know them not like how much to get paid in on average. IT was like all I get paid like five hundred books a month, five hundred books a month to go and do this work of of either you know cleaning out porter parties, um picking up trash, the dining facility, doing laundry, all of these different tasks because uh the military wanted soldiers to be out doing things that only soldiers could do understandable but when I started putting you two and two together and knowing that this company, one company alone was making trillions of dollars, trillions of dollars. And yet this filippino mom is making five hundred box a month, maybe getting one day off a week, maybe working twelve hours a day.

Otherwise I know how how often you're able to go home to your family. Well, they let they will let us go home a couple of weeks every other year. IT was IT was an eye opening experience that growing up in hoi, I had, i've Frankly hadn't given much thought to before.

But it's what LED me ultimately coming back from that first deployment. There was no way that I could go back to the life that I had left behind. And I knew somehow, somewhere, I needed to find a way to use those experiences to try to make a positive impact, to try to influence those. I mean Frankly, that the politicians who are making decisions to go um and launched these regime change wars and send our men and women in uniform to war and end to what end ultimately if .

we can just go back to that list yeah so the list suggest name and injury name .

and injury name unit potentially location if someone had documented that end and their injury and .

is just pages and pages .

of that yes yeah and and I knew you know I didn't get to call home every day but when I called home and talk to my parents, I felt um the tension in their voice and you know they they didn't want me to worry about anything at home and so they were always okay how are you what can we send you and this that but you know IT wasn't like I was calling them from down the street saying a house ago and let's let's go have lunch or whatever and so I knew that the reason for that attention was they were terrified of getting a phone call, delivering the worst possible news.

And that was what I thought of as I went through that list of of how, you know, IT is the reality of war. Behind every one of those names on that list was know a husband or wife, parents, you sons and daughters, family members who had no idea what we were dealing with. Really, all they knew is what they saw the news. And what my dad told me later, when I got home after that deployment, was that every time they saw the news and they saw helicopter shot down or crashed or some ID, I they they held their breath until they saw or heard the news of of who I was or or what I was.

What can you say about what .

the soldiers had to go .

through physically and psychologically when they get injured?

The physical um you know I mean some some injuries appeared to be minor up front at that time. Traumatic brain injury was not something that was talked about much, if at all. And so you know many had visible wounds. Others are now what we know where appeared like, or I could you checked out, but had invisible wounds.

Those who were injured in a way that did not allow them to get back to work, founded emotionally, very difficult to be put on a plane and evacuated out of there, feeling guilty that they were leaving their friends behind and not thinking about themselves or not feeling bad for themselves but instead feeling bad for being forced to be in a position to leave um you know for soldiers is not of course we all have our own political opinions on things. But when IT comes right down to IT in a war zone, it's about your friends, it's about your brothers and sisters that you're serving alongside. It's not about the politicians or whatever insanity is going on in washington.

It's about getting up and going out, getting the job done and coming back home together. I mean, I I had friends of mine who were from hoag, who are from american sama, very culturally tightened community, who confided in me throughout that you know here that we were there some of the very inventory soldiers who were going out on security patrols and doing raids everyday um just some of the very traumatic experiences that they went through. No physical injury but um creating a kind of emotional stress and trauma that as human beings they were struggling in dealing with on a positive note, you know the polar egan culture especially but but also asian culture and other cultures around the world.

Our guys found that as they were shortly after we got there, the unit that we were replacing, we're taking the guys out on control and saying he hears this village, here's where we found friendly or here's where we know that there are insurgents Operating and we've got allies and lookouts and shown them to lay the land basically. And what our guys found was that as they were doing these right along gs, they call IT a left seat, right seat when you're coming in and taking over um that there was there was a bit of A A tense, even adversarial type of relationship. Where are on on the military side, there was an assumption of suspicion or lack of trust just with the local local iraqi people who lived around the base we were at and without anybody telling them to culturally our guys began trying to build relationships and um you know for hawaii and and samoa and we had soldiers from graham inside pan little things like you're writing down in a humvee.

You've got a gunner in the turn with a fifty color machine gun of some sort little things, like pointing the muscle to the sky as you're writing through a town, rather than pointing IT directly at where people are walking down the street, was a huge gesture of an assumption of hay. Let's, let's, let's actually talk and become friends. We had our guys riding down the street and throwing shockers out to the to the local people there, breaking bread, sharing tea and building those relationships and and again, I served in a medical unit and what we saw was uh a downward shift in um in casualties from the unit that had been there before, simply because of that that basic human connection that our guys thought to make. And then gradually finding like local you know people who lived in the in the town right next to us were saying he you guys should really somebody was digging a big hole down this, a mile down the road. You might want to buy, pass that, or checked that out in finding weapons, cashes and I S, and provides explosive devices and other things that helped save people's lives.

On the cost side of things, how's IT possible for a company like Albert or others to get away with forty dog bananas, however much was the overhead costs?

Look, what they will claim is that is expensive to move logistics through a country at war. But they get away with IT, ultimately, these insane, this insane war profiteering. And they're not alone. Obviously, there are other companies that this is their business model. They get away with IT because of their political connections and the lobby's that they have, the relationships they have with politicians.

And ultimately, what president is on, how are warned against with that with regard to that cozy relationship between congress and even what he called them, the military industrial complex, it's been alive and well. He warned us against IT, and I would say it's thriving more now than ever before. How powerful .

is the military industrial complex as a thing? Is IT is IT a machine that can be slowed down, can be stopped, can be reversed .

IT can be it's powerful. I don't think you can overstate the powerful nature of IT because IT IT extends so deeply within our government, uh, it's not just those in these specific big defense contracting companies that benefit from.

And you look at the revolving door within the panic gon, for example, where you have both high ranking people who wear military uniforms as well as those who serve as high ranking department of defense civilians who are literally working their way into a big payout when they leave that job. We see IT with our own secretary of defense. Now he retired as a general officer, went and served on uh, one of the boards for one of the big defense contractors. And then now back as the secretary of defense, we see the same thing in congress with members of congress and senior professional staffers and congress same exact revolving door. Where you have people, whether they're writing contracts for the department of defense for the company that then wins the bid for that contract and then going and working for that company or those in congress who are writing policies and doing exactly the same thing.

you have been both a war hawk and a or dove at time. So what is your philosophy on one war justified?

And when IT is not war is justified, when IT is in the best interest of our national security, and when IT is the last resort, when all diplomatic efforts have been, uh, completed and exhausted and war is the last possible, wrote that must be taken to ensure the safety, security and freedom of the american people so .

that's a high level, beautiful ideal. But there's messy details. So terrorism, for example. Yes, the united states involved in the war in iraq and against that was in part the big umbrella of the war on terrorism.

So, you know, we need decide whether something is justified or not, and whether something could be defeated or not. How hard is that? Is that even possible to? What degrees is possible to defeat terrorism?

Well, first of all, uh, there is part part of the problem of our foreign policy has been how many conflicts, wars, military actions have been waged in the name of this, quote, quote, war on terrorism, in the name of national security legislation like the patriot that violate civil liberties, our civil liberties and freedoms, in the name of the war on terrorism and national security when it's not justified. And so use afghanistan as an example.

I support the initial mission that lifted off shortly after the attack on nine eleven. And the islam is terrace attack on nine eleven IT was a relatively small group of U. S.

Military launched to go after those all kind of cells and or some have been lodged in the wake of that attack that is the mission that should have been uh supported and focused on in its execution instead as you know, IT was attention was diverted very quickly to the regime change war in iraq um that was waged on a false pretenses and the resources and focus was taken away from that initial mission that one to afghanistan uh and the war in afghanistan blew up into something that became about regime change and governance and the taliban and less focused on okay a and automobile lada and IT became this thing that even general officers had a hard time um articulating what is the objective here? What are we trying to accomplish? What is winning look like? What at what point do we know it's time to exit and get out? And if you as you look at things like the know, the afghanistan files and others, the answers to these simple and essential questions shifted and changed over time, over a very long time.

Similarly in any rock, you know that I bought into a lot of what was being sold by the administration and by democrats and republicans and congress at the time and very quickly, even as I was on the ground there, started to have eyes opened up to um how we had been how we had been lied to tremendously and how that protracted war went on for a very, very long time with decisions being made that ultimately serve to strengthen uh terrorist groups like okayed a the creation of ISIS and others 啊， really undermining our national security interest. In the meantime, understanding the enemy that you are trying to defeat is essential to being able to uh, build a strategy. The the declaration um of present biden, for example, saying the war on terrorist over the war on terrorist, what does that mean? Are the forever wars are over? What does that actually mean? Um I served I served on my last most recent development twenty twenty one to east africa and somalia where already abb is one of those islamist terrorist groups that follows the same ideology as okada, IOS, uh homos and others.

This group has been allowed to grow and be strengthened, even though they are one of the main groups that provides funding to alka in that entire region. So any president or politician can declare war to be over. But when you have an enemy like these islamist terrorist groups who are still intent on their goal and their objective, which is to ultimately establish their islamic caliph and uh you know destroy israel and and exterminate the juice people and and basically destroy killer, convert anyone who doesn't adhere to their ideology ah that continues on and IT, they will only become stronger the longer our leaders put their heads in the sand to pretend like, oh no, this doesn't exist uh this kind of war.

This war specifically, is one that has to be waged military and ideologically and the ideological component to this, which is defeating their ideology with a superior one, is one that I point IT out in congress. During the obama administration, we, the collective we were fAiling at, the obama minister, was fAiling up because they were so afraid of being labelled to islam fobes, that they refuse to accurately identify the ideology driving these terrace groups, and instead that we are countering violent extremism, was the term that the obama administration started to use and was coined and and kind of Mandated across the U. S.

government. Well, you, you have to know again, you have to know the enemy that threatens you and why they're doing what they're doing if you have any hope of actually, uh, preventing their attack. Both military and as we're seeing now with with hooses actions, not only directly in the assault on israel, but how they how must achieve their objectives in spreading their ideology around the world.

If you look at the lessons learned from the U. S. Involvement of ghanian and in iraq, how do you fight terrorism clearly under .

standing who they are and where they are and what they are doing, what they are doing is essential first of all.

Um and obviously there are different groups, different names, they have more than changed uh based on their locale and how they Operate uh, building relationships with people in other countries, both state leaders as well as religious leaders and others to share that same objective of defeating these is a mysterious sts in on both fronts and and acting as a united front in taking that action what what exactly that action looks like. Details on the ground dictate that. Details about these different groups will dictate that. But we've seen examples of this before and I saw this in somalia. We saw in some cases in iraq where for example, you have um e mom who recognize the threat that these terrorist groups pose to their own people and their own communities and exerting their influence in defeating that um the terrorist islamist ideology with their own teachings of islam and preaching peace a amongst their people war is ugly and IT is messy uh IT is also an unfortunate reality of the world we live in so while I finally believe that we must always pursue peace i'm not a pacifist i'm a realist and recognize that um where there are these threats uh we must we must do what we can to work towards that that safety, that security, that freedom and peace that that we all want.

If you look at the perspective of israel in the israel gaa war going on now, what do you do with the fact that the death of a civilian serves the catalyst, gives birth to hate, potentially generational hate? So in israel, stated goal of destroying him, us, they are creating a measurable hate. What do you do with that? From a perspective of israel, what is the correct action to take in response? october?

It's a complex question with a complex answer. I think israel's approach has to be in in recognizing that dilation as far as possible. And I know it's tough when you have um a terrorist group like como's that is so interwoven within the community of people in gaza but to recognize that there there should be and there is a shared purpose there for the palestinian people to be able to live free and in peace and not under the oppression of this terrorist group just as the people of israel would like to live in peace and free from the threat of attack from a terrorist group that wants to exterminate them.

The complexities of what's going on in israeli politics is, I think, a different conversation, but also one that is directly intertwined with the answer to this question. When you have some people, israeli government, who don't want the palestinian people in gaza at all and want them to go and reiterate in other countries, I think that's a big problem and that further exacerbates this hatred and resentment that um continues to grow there. This is a generali's long chAllenge, unfortunately, of of the resentment, attention that exists between many israeli and many palestinians that can only be resolved when there is strong leadership representing both peos who are are able and willing to come together and recognize that the only way forward is to let the past be the past and find away towards peace in the future.

How do you think? How do you hope? The war u raine land.

the only way that this war ends is, is to do exactly what we're talking about. There has to be a brokered dialogue and conversation about peace that has to occur with representatives from from russia and ukraine.

It's IT is really, truly heart breaking to see both how efforts that began just weeks after russia invaded ukraine to do exactly this were thwarted uh by the bite in paris administration and other western powers has cost so many innocent people's lives and this is where I get I get um I I friends in ukraine. I've been there more than a few times. I've enjoyed and appreciated the time that i've i've spent there. I I when I hear from my friends about how afraid they are of their husband's being conscripted and you know, feeling like they have to hide for fear of being yanked off the streets, the the their friends and family members who've been killed in the war. The only way this ends is when both sides come to the table and find an agreement that neither side is going to be completely happy with both sides being forced to make some concessions but one where um they will both walk away and and this work .

and end what's the role of a the U. S. President perhaps to bring everybody to the table. Do you think the us. President should sit down with the last computing together?

Yes, yes. In an ideal world, yes. Uh, this, this should have happened long ago. Uh, the question of whether not president biden is the right person to do that at this time, when all of the statements in comments that they have made, the biden paris administration has made from the beginning of this war essentially point to their objective being to basically destroy russia and that's one of the reasons why they have supported both the continuation of this war for as long as it's lasted, as well as why they have sorted efforts towards peace.

Whoever that most effective neutral broker is um that that's the best person to do this, the biden haris administration. I think the role that they have to take is actually encouraging zille sky a to sit down and begin this process. Those kinds of engagements are the most, to me, the most powerful exercises of diplomacy that can be matched, especially when our, our presidents and foremost role and responsibility is to serve as commander in chief. And I wish that we had leaders who were more willing to engage because I think we we'd make a lot more progress more quickly and to find areas both of mutual interest, as well as to help d conflict and d escalate areas where there is tension or disagreement or adversarial interests.

Some of that is basic human commodity. People come in naive for this, but sometimes just knowing that there's a human on the outside, even like one is some private, if you look, the ones can put in, for example. Just humour.

Both are very intelligent, witty at times, even funny people. Yes, this is war time. Yes, a lot of civilians and soldiers are dying. There's hate. But if you can look above at all and think about the future of the countries, the flourishing of the people and the stopping of the death of civilians, soldiers, then in that place you can have that basic human connection.

I agree, I don't think that's native at all. And I think there are so many examples through history that point to the power of that, the real power in that um in you know the cuban missile crisis, how J, F, K had to literally find a secret way to communicate with crucial to try to go around the backs of the military commanders who are urging him to take military action and instead find hey, we both ultimately want the same thing. Neither of us wants to launch a catastrophic nuclear war. So let's figure this out.

Of course, there's examples to our history. You know leaders are complicated people. They are manipulated of people. They have like hit, learn chamblin, meeting and chamblin and getting a hoodwink by hitlers carma and being convinced that he there doesn't have any interest in invading and destroy the rest of the world. So you know .

you to smart don't be a drink.

Um you've met you been criticized to this. You've met with syrian president and uh, as part of the campaign, when you're running for president, criticize for not calling him or criminal. What's the right way to meet, to communicate with these kinds of leaders?

We as as as I just stated, we need leaders. You have the courage to meet not just with allies, but with adversity, in the pursuit of peace, in the pursuit of increased understanding uh, if policies are being made through the the lens is in the barriers of bureaucrats and the media and others who have or may have their own interests um our president, leader can't make, even members of congress can make decisions with the kind of clarity that we, the american people need them to make.

I think that these kinds of engagements are westernized and politicize as they were against me um by those who have their own interest, whether be the military industrial complex or in washington. If you're not part of of the official narrative of the U. S. Government um which was intent on a regime change war in syria then then you're an outcast and uh IT IT was IT was IT was unfortunate because. You know, people, people love at all kinds of accusations and and you know, smears against me for going and and having the audacity to go in and learn more. Try to seek the truth in the hopes of preventing more needless war and in the hopes of preventing yet another great mayor and disasters swar in the middle st, and simply for going, and, yes, meeting with assad, also meeting with religious leaders in syria, also meeting in, talking with people on the street of damascus, talking with college students, talking with people from the opposition party who who would like to see assad replaced, you know, talking with a local lot, just the whole host of people over over the course of a few days, you know, the accusation was of you like, oh, she's SHE loves dictators it's a sad state of affairs when are some of the most influential voices in our country will label someone a uh a lover supporter of dictators simply because you're sang hay we shouldn't be going to war there is another way and and i'm not alone in this you know people who were against the world iraq, we're like we're given similar a labels um until IT became you know popular in our politics to have been against the iraq war.

We see the same thing now with people like tucker myself and others who are saying um we should not be waging this proxy war against russia via ukraine and using the in people's lives in this war will now all of a sudden near a putin lover, a putin puppet or or whatever you know the trader trees and all all of these accusations that are used ultimately by people who are not interested in having a substantive conversation about the truth about looking at these these wars and conflicts you with a comprehensive view on on exactly all the dynamics that that are at play and and that's what I found when I came back. I went looking for when went to syria, looking forward to coming back and shutting light on, uh, different perspective experiences and stories that I found that would give people a more broad understanding of of what was happening in that country. And what I found was there was zero interest in a the mainstream media or in congress in hearing any other perspective other than their own, which was we need to launch this regime change war through the use of arming and equipped known terrorists within syria to overthrow the regime without any idea, uh, without them stating any a realistic idea of who would take control once assad was overthrown but the reality actually being that no matter which opposition group they might try to prop up, they would not have the power to withstand the terrorist groups whose stated goal IT was to go and take over power from assad they had no interest in trying to gain true understanding and IT IT was very disheartening. IT was very disheartening and and a big lesson learned about where where their interest really we're focused.

yes, a simpler stic narrative template that fit into every single situation. A lot of stuff is not talked about any u rush uci war. One of things that's not talked about this.

okay. So pudding is overthrown. Then who do you think we will come into power? No one of things I talked about what astorians that putin and he gets criticize for this. They are putin out of all the people that might take power, is the most liberal, is the most a dovish. In fact, the every indication shows that he really hates this war.

And and so everybody that will step in if he steps down or he is overthrown, it's just going to accelerate this, this war and expansionism, the the third empire, all that kind of stuff that the the U. S. Military industrial complex will feed in.

Do so you have to think about what the future holds and what the different power players are in. What are the level of corruption there is? A this serve the realistic view of the situation versus the idealistic view of the situation.

Just done that note. quick. E, I think that was exposed in broad daylight when IT appeared that, you know, the former head of the vagina group was about to try to to launch a coup. And how that was so celebrated, even on, you know, like M S N B C and Rachel mao and others touting that this was somehow going to be a great thing without looking at, you know, who is the sky, really, what has he been doing in different countries around the world and what what would be his a kind of ruling philosophy in how that would how that would differ or benefit american interest or the interest of security um and peace .

but also the interest of ukraine and russia and humanity overall flourishing of nations, which is great. Everybody collaborations with nations. I great friendly competition. You know, one of the things I love about the twenty centuries, the friendly, sometimes not so friendly, competition between the soviet union and the united states in space, in the space rates that created some incredible engineering, scientific breakthroughs, all of this and also made people dream about, like reaching out to the stars. And yeah, war destroys all that, or damages IT, hopefully just damages IT.

Hopefully, will the photo x will rise again? Well, let me ask you that about the criticism you've mentioned of this, probably the most common criticism of you that you love putin. So just a linker on IT what you think is the foundation of this criticism.

I'll tell you when I began. You know I had my first day in congress was january third, twenty thirteen believe was the third forth fifth somewhere around there and my last day was january third, twenty twenty one um I had been given my experience of serving as a soldier in the middle st. And the motivation that that really drove me to run for congress in the first place.

I served on the foreign fairs committee and the armed services committee almost eight years. Eight years that I was there uh with my drive and motivation to actually be in a position to chAllenge the influence of the military industry complex to try to prevent us from needlessly going to war and so you know the likes of Hillary clinton and the cabal of war mongers in washington, they weren't fans of mine, to say the least. I can't say IT was a total surprise, but I was dishart's ing that the very day that I announced my candidacy, that I was running for president, which was in february twenty nine, as the hour that, the hour that I walked up onto that stage to announce my candida was in hawaii and I gave my announcement speech.

N B C news published a hit piece that planted the seeds of suspicion in voters minds that somehow I was A A darling of putin and russia and whatever I was a baseless, all of IT baseless and that that continued um like a threat, a steady drumbeat throughout my canada sa but that really was escalates when in a podcast with David axe d Hillary clinton set out with the russians are grooming ing her and um this is not um I mean this this came from a very influential person that was the former ssem tof state, former U. S. Senator, former first lady, someone who wheel did and continues to wheel a lot of power in the democratic party and amongst voters and that that took IT to a whole new level.

What is the basis for this? Nothing IT is IT is a tired yet dependable playbook that is used not only by people like Hillary clinton, but also people like mitt romney and others to try to smear this credit and destroy the reputations of people who have the audacity to, uh question their objectives as they call for one war or another uh or have the the audacity to say that this is not in the best interest of peace or in our country and our our national security. They keep going back to this playbook as they do today because again, they're not willing to debate the substance of one position verses another, which is what we should have if people feel so stronger that we should be going and wagging this war, that war.

Okay, great. Go make your case to the american people. Go stand on the floor of the united states house and actually have this debate, allow those who are saying no, this is not a good idea, to also stand freely and make that argument. Instead, they they ve resort to a the kind of name calling that tells voters, hey, you can't trust this person or anything that they say. We, myself and some of my other colleagues got the same treatment when we tried to pass legislation in congress that would have taken out provisions from the patriot that are most agreeable, sly, violating our fourth amendment rights, and civil liberties authorities that have allowed our government to illegally survey americans without a warrant.

And as we did so, we were called traders, we were called, we had other members of congress on the housework, or saying that if you pass this legislation, you will be responsible for another nine eleven style attack on our soil um these are all distraction tactics to to try to divert our attention away from what's actually happening and instead just tell voters that you can't you can't trust these people. Obviously, this is happen to trump. It's happened to Bobby Kennedy. It's happened to people like rand paul and others. There is a small group but a growing number um at least them on the republican inside at this point people who are are actually willing to stand up and um and chAllenge the military industry complex, chAllenge the war mongers in both parties.

people on the left of chAllenge the warm monks as well throughout the last few decades .

less so recently. I agree with you but less so recently and this is one of the reasons why I left the democratic party um one of the foremost reasons I I devote an entire chapter to this issue in my book for love of country what leave the democrat party behind going into the the detail of some of the things we've talked about, about my own experiences, about what I have learned along the way but also how you know even in the last year, two years um certainly under this administration people who I worked within congress who were democrats, dependable voices for civil liberties, dependable voices speaking out against the insanity of people who wanted to wage war for the sake of war um they're largely silent now and unfortunately within the democratic party in washington there is no room for debate that if you chAllenge the biden administration's position on foreign policy you you're gonna get you're gonna hear about IT and um what we have seen is that that's exactly what's happened and people have retracted statements or just fall in silent or whatever the case may be this debate that should be within both parties on the democrat side unfortunately um IT just doesn't exist anymore.

There seems to be some kind of massive I of the war ukraine IT was strange to a to watch but the new ones aspect the discussion .

was lost very quickly.

He was a putin bad IT was a war between good and evil, right? And in that, if you bring up banning kind of new us, discussion of, like cartoons actually achieve peace in the situation here immediately put on the side of evil.

which is pretty sick when you think about that.

I mean, na, of course, it's the the military dust rial complex machine that the war profit tears is driving this kind of conversation. I hope that's not. I hope they don't have that much power.

I hope they just have a cent those, and they push people, and they kind of use people's natural desire to divide the world that they good. And even one fights the side of good. You know.

people just a have .

a natural proclivity for that, and that's a good thing. We want to five sides of good but then .

that gets captured and manipulated yeah yes I admire your your hopefulness. I am I am hopeful also um because of the goodness in people and the naturally compassionate nature of people um however, I will tell you from first hand experience that what we talk about is the national security state, the military industrial complex um this cobo of war mongers that extends not only within government but outside of government um extends to many powerful media outlets um they are incredibly powerful and don't have any s at destroying those who try to get in the way of there power. And we've got a lot of tools. They've got a lot of tools to do that, which which I I think is why present ison hower chose to include this in his very well address as a warning because the only recourse, the only real power that has the ability to destroy them and stand up against them is a free. People living in a free society exercise the rights that we haven't joined in the constitution and build rights.

I just talk to any japs, and you won a book on nuclear war, a scenario of how nuclear war will happen second by second, minute by minute. I project if that happens, how we would happen. It's terrifying. It's terrifying.

How easy is to start that one person can started first wall, and then there's no way to stop IT, even potential with tactical nuclear weapons that IT would just the machinery of IT how clues everybody is combined with the machinery of IT is just impossible to stop and just between the rushing that the united states especially and then all sudden you have nuclear winter and five billion people dead yeah ah and they they die through just the essentially torture slowly. How do we avoid that? How do we avoid a nuclear war? How do we that's something that you talk about and and think about hard ware. Avoid this kind of escalation of a hot war.

I think the most essential thing, first of all, is understanding exactly what you have just detailed. We are in this very strange and absurd time where we have talking heads and so called pundits on T. V. We have politicians. We have people who are talking about a nuclear war as though IT is a war that can be one period and a war that um can be waged somehow without that risk of escalation to the point of destruction of human civilization and and so they talk about this is though it's just another war and especially as they talk about the use of tactical nuclear peans oh, this is just this is small and we think it'll send a message without actually escalating to the point where we are dealing with with the kind of destruction that we witnessed in world war too.

That's a dangerous thing when IT becomes like Normalized, as you know well, we've got this new missiles that will go and it's targeted and its strategic and not only harm this quote, quote, military target, a ronal regan was one hundred percent correct when he said you, a nuclear war cannot be won and should never be waged IT was true then and it's true now. No matter how much these guys who are producing these weapons or those who are benefiting from that industry try to tell us, oh no, it'll it'll never happen. Um so to me that that's that's an important first first step to continue to inform and educate and sound the alarms two people don't don't buy this crap because it's not true.

And I I look forward to listening to to your podcast but the PSA that was put out by new york city's emergency management office about what to do in the event of a nuclear attack, you would find that funny if IT wasn't so deeply disturbing how they created this public service announcement. They distributed IT everywhere across the city on the internet. I think he was on the radio where you had a woman who appeared to be um an actor coming in and saying, hey um in the event of when the big one hits here's what you should do focus on doing these three things and i'm parthia ing but I encourage you to watch IT i'm perfectly but he said, get inside, stay inside and stay tuned that that was IT and you know get inside, go away from the windows stay inside.

Don't go outside until you get the oak lair and stay tuned follow your account on instagram and twitter and at the very end of of this, this short PSA SHE said that her her closing words where we've got this and IT was so disturbing in that IT was so completely out of touch with reality um IT creates this kind of false sense of security that OK well, it's kind of like, here's what you do when a tornado hits or when a big storm hits and in category ing the big one, a nuclear attack within that same kind of prepared ness that you would want people to have in the event of a natural, a natural disaster of some sort and and IT is reflective of the carelessness with which people in our governments um that careless attitude that people in our government have towards nuclear war and a nuclear attack, even as they set us up for failure in pushing us to the closer and closer to the brink of a nuclear war occurring, whether i'd be an intentional attack, or as we saw during the last cold war, one that could be launched unintentionally, you know how many near messes were there during during the last cold war? I saw this documentation called the man who saved the world and IT was some like middle level officer who happened to be on duty and who didn't do what he was told in in launching the the nuclear missiles because of what they thought wasn't incoming attack. And I turned out to be a complete mistake or misread on the radar, but that's what we're facing.

But by the way, there are so many things to say there, but one of the things that any Jacobs and details is just how organize the machinery of all this is where the humans involved don't have to think. They just follow orders as a very clear set of steps you take, and that there's a very few places that way you can inject your humanity and be equated. What's the big picture? This, the only person that can think is the president of the united states.

The president united states gets six minutes after the warning the early warning system says whether its foss or not, says we believe that there's been a nuclear uh, weapon launched you have six minutes before you can make the decision of launch back, initiate and to me that's what i'm a voting based on, right? And the current situation, you really have to see that as one of the most important aspects as the united days president is who do you trust in those six minutes to sit there? And i'm not really sure looking to biden and trump.

Boy, I don't know, but I do know that I would like somebody who's thinking independently and not part the machinery of warmongers that that's really mean it's I don't want to make a sound cynical, dramatic, but sometimes in such scary situations, in such dramatic situations, you can follow the momentum. Yes, when the right thing to do, the right thing for a leader to do is to step back and look of all human history now and and don't ignore all the people in the room they're like saying stuff because most like they're going to be saying is warm monkey type of things. Yes, that's one of the the things why I also critical for.

I still think the one is a hero for staying in kef. Everybody was telling him to flee IT was all the information was telling, basically saying the the world second big, this military is like coming at here if it's just done in all front sustain here but that's what a great leader does, is ignored everybody in states, yeah school IT, i'm going to die for my country. I'm going to die as a leader and a threat thing for leader to do.

It's sad that I mean that to me, that's what we should expect of our leaders is exactly that. And IT sad that that, uh, having a leader in that position fulfill their responsibility and the earth they take is seen as a heroic act when we should like that. That that's your job that's what we elect our leaders h to do and yet so many so many have failed. But to your to your point um it's not cynical at all to to know that in those rooms, especially in these moments of crisis, unfortunately, there are the predominant prevAiling opinion of this war mongers establishment that's not specific to one party is the nether reaction which is to go to war or to execute an act of war um and and this is this is you know one of the biggest costs of this establishment um destroying the reputations of and smearing and trying to cancell in sensor those who are voices of peace or just those who take a contrary and position and say, well, hey, why don't we just pauses for a moment, actually think this through why don't we talk through what happens if we take this course of action, what happens if we go down a different path?

Let's actually be thought ful about, uh, what our options are for abenali and then make the decision thoughtful manner based on that, even advocating for that is seen as as the kind of heroes y in in the war mongers established in washington and the cost of this um the cost of of their retaliation against those who are reasonable voices who look at the world as IT is not some fantasy y that they wish existed is in those rooms during those critical moments, people will, even if they know in their heart or their mind that this could end really badly. They their instinct is to self sensor and not speak up because they don't want to experience the rough and ire, whether whether becoming from for star generals or you know the secretary of state or defense, these high ranking people in positions of power and influence, they don't want to be. The one guy in the room was just like, hey guys, let's just take a breath and actually think this through what will happen, not just in the immediate response of this action that you're advocating for.

What are all of the other people, uh, other actors, stakeholder in the world? How will they respond? And then how will we respond to them? How will they respond? Us actually go through this exercise of in the military, this this is commonly referred to as, you know, what are the second, third, fourth order of effects that will occur as a result of pursuing a specific course of action?

It's weird how difficult that is to be that that person .

in the room IT requires courage.

Yeah.

but sad, but IT requires current.

But why does IT require like given? Just to ask, okay, we have been in anian iraq for this number of years. What's the examples? right? Just bring that up like every day in a meeting. yeah.

What's the exit plan? It's a strange that that gets criticize about warn iraq so on but I just remember there was this pressure you can't quite criticize. Well, I asked dum questions about why, why, why I going into iraq again.

they're not dumb questions.

In rest respect, you're like there are not dumb questions at all, but actually required a lot of current to ask them while still working within the institution is easier if you're like an activist from the outside line no, what this kind of within the institution in the position of power to ask the questions like maybe let's not yeah IT seems really difficult. The the same kind of thing in the the one ukraine and just kind of military involvement again, I guess the cynical interpretation is that is the military industrial complex that perm eetes, yes, the just the holes of power IT does.

And what is behind the military industry complex and there are different examples of this. You can look at the pharmaceutical industry as well. There's a huge amount of money and a huge amount of power uh that that wheels tremendous influence over members of congress. Um you know there there are different examples of this ah you know across different sectors of our society. But but I think the military industrial complex over time has proven itself to be um the most the most powerful and influential and that's what is behind IT is is this is why they uh try to destroy anyone who dares to ask the most obvious questions is because IT is about power and wielding power .

what the good thing about the president, they have the power to say f you to the to everybody in the room, I think you do. They don't quite take that power like you really people will say like the us. Present doesn't that much power? I don't know about that.

Just think if you look at the law, especially military, when when you when you're talking about. And military have a lot of power, yes, so they they can, they can fire everybody. I guess they have a lot of power.

They can stop words. They can start words. They have a lot of power.

The position of the presidency certainly does. Unfortunately, we have people too often who assume the presidency from a position of weakness because they're afraid of losing power. And so they make those calculated decisions not based on what is right for the right reasons, but instead driven by fear of loss of power and loss of of influence and that's where especially given all that we are facing, we need leaders in the presidency and in congress who have courage to be that voice in the room to ask about um to remain mindful of and rooted in the constitution to even as we are seeing this legislation being built as the anti tiktok bill, that's really um not about tiktok, it's about freedom of speech.

Can you actually explain that bill? Yes.

this is another the bottom line up front is this is another piece of legislation being an expanded through congress with strong bipartisan support in the name of national security interests that is essentially a power grab um and an assault on freedom and liberty. And uh i'll i'll just say this in in I think probably like the top three the top three things that they are, they're not actually telling us that in the bill, freedom of speech is our ability to be able to express ourselves whether IT be in person, on a podcast, on a social media platform, in a newspaper, whatever the platform may be.

This legislation gives the executive the power to decide which platforms are are acceptable for us to be able to use tiktok self of the words tiktok is not in actually in the bill, but IT gives the the power to the president to decide who is a foreign adversary single handedly. No, no consultation with the agreement from members of congress or anyone else. IT actually gives the power uh, to a cabinet secretary to design nate, who is a foreign adversary.

And if a social media platform is uh has at least twenty percent uh ownership in a social media platform, uh that platform may be banned from doing business in amErica essentially a but it's not just a foreign state actor that could be named as a foreign adversary IT also includes the line in the legislation that if let's say, a person has at least twenty five percent financial interest or ownership in a social media platform, there are an american citizen who may be working or living in some other country or working or living here but doing business with other countries, if the executive branch of our government decides that this individual is under the influence of or controlled by someone that they deem a foreign adversary than that platform um must not do business in amErica ah and that person, obviously even an american citizen um is banned from conducting that business must they must divest essentially. So when you look at and and this is where there's been a lot of chat around this. When you look at elon mosque, for example, well, you already have people in the by administration, even president biden himself, implying that elon musk activities need to be investigated.

Well, he is someone with test la who does business in a lot of countries, including china, and therefore he must be investigated. IT is not at all a stretch of imagination to say that x could be the next platform that the executive branch decides. Note, we've designated this person to be a foreign adversary. Therefore, his business interest cannot be allowed for the social media platform cannot be allowed to to exist. Um we've seen this already with people accusing him and x of interfering in our elections.

Again, it's that it's it's coming from the democratic party that they are claiming that a guy who has said himself he's committed to free speech and is allowing free speech on his platform and is not allowing the federal government to manipulate his platform by deeming which accounts are OK to to um you know post their content in which accounts are not because of this information or whatever they claim IT to be. It's it's not an accident that the social media platforms that have been proven to take action at the behest of the federal government and the White house to sensor certain voices, they are not included with or being targeted at all in this legislation or or outside of IT yet other platforms that are not um CoOperating or collaborating, uh somehow are. So the underlying issue here this is this is being sold as tiktok and national security. But ultimately, even as ron paul said this, this is legislation that's the greatest to sault liberty. Since the patch react was passed.

he has quite dark that this just the graph of power IT is, I mean, this doesn't this not just with you on, it's probably would suck with facebook, instagram. What's up? IT puts pressure, not just about banning, but IT puts pressure for them to kind of a moderate behavior.

yes.

which is a slippery, slow. Of course, it's a beautiful dance of power, because you don't want tech companies have too much power either, or individuals that the top those two companies have too much power. But then do you want that power? And there is a government?

No.

the history of this nation is is fascine effective, a journey towards the baLance of power. And IT does seem like this, the sneaky thing much. I hate the tok on all fronts.

My brain rothe, I use tiktok, I know, is also the the national security dangers of china on was just like tiktok. Man, just I I don't i'm is so addicting. It's so addicting. So when I first saw this tick up bills, I, yes, no first. But then they got me, the children horse got me.

no. I mean, like the social ma documentation, I think exposed a lot that this there there is so much there's so much that these algorithms do in these very social media platforms um that that's problematic to say the least. Uh, data security and privacy is a serious issue. Um these are serious things. And so let's have a conversation about these serious things uh and and seize these attempts to try to have our government try to tell us what we aren't aren't allowed to see, you know, where we aren't aren't allowed to say what we want to say that's really what IT comes .

down to yeah more and more trust people to a whenever social media companies do bulshed things for the people to make documentary about IT, to discover IT for great journalists, to do great journalist, right, and find the flaws in the hypocrisy in the like, a call for transparency.

All those kinds of things that don't trust in, in most cases, government regulation of technology companies because they seem to be really out of touch that when they want power, yeah, they're really intimated by the power that the tech companies have. And two, they don't seem to get at the technology at all. So they are like hindering innovation and they're just greedy for power.

And and those .

are the bad combination.

a bad combination. The thing here to those this extends far beyond um social media companies. You know this is a very specific example, but it's one example of many how um those who are greedy for power um are are continuing to try to find ways to tell us how to live our lives um they're increasingly trying to tell us uh again what we are allowed to to see and hear, whether IT be social media companies or what shows up in our in in a google search engine, for example and if they're not finding a willing and compliant social media company, are big tech company, then they're looking for ways to to reach their hand into those tech companies, enforce compliance.

But you know in the age of disinformation, misinformation um hate speech, all of all of the the excuses that are given for government, either directly or indirectly through big tech to try to sensor certain voices IT really um undermines the truth which is the way to defeat bad speech um is with Better speech and more speech, whether it's hate speeches or things that you might be offended by or things that you might disagree with. The answer is not to have some entity with the power of censorship and being the quota quote authority to decide what is good speech unacceptable and what is bad speech and unacceptable. It's what you said.

Let's let's encourage this debate and and you know encourage people who are inspired by like no man, I saw this thing or this thing is happening and it's pissing me off. So i'm i'm going to i'm gona bring a superior argument. I'm going to show what the right way is and and gosh, this is what our founders in vision for us as a society in this country. And we would be so much stronger with a more engaged people and more informed people um if if we had this and support IT supported.

did you think what are the chance that the tiktok band bill passes the .

way that IT passed through the house of representatives with such an overwhelmed bipartisan support and so quickly and president biden saying that if IT comes across his death kill sign IT um I thought I would pass through very quickly. I am only slightly encouraged by the fact that the senate at least appears to be saying, hey, there are serious free speech concerns around this bill, serious civil illiberality concerns around this bill. We need to do our due diligence um I I I won't say i'm cautiously optimistic because I understand how that place works. But their pause at least gives people the opportunity to continue to kind of sound the alarm and uh for people to call their senators and express their their concerns with us that there are very real valid concerns.

Yeah, this is really my stop. Just in case we didn't make IT clear. I think this is really, really big danger if this thing passes, uh, even if you hate illa, mos, korea, whatever. This is really, really, really dangerous. If the government can say over the platforms on which we communicate with each other a huge problem and there .

is a section and there is, well, just just kind of the last piece on this is if you if you use a VPN and you try to use a VPN to access this, you could have problems with the law, and you take that a step further and say, well, how would they know there's a surveilLance aspect to that? So so once you start peeling back the layers of this really toxic onion. IT leads IT really leads seriously to a pretty dark um and dangerous and oppressive place.

You were a long time democrat. You were the vice chair. The democratic national committee to you resigned in two thousand sixteen to endorse berny.

I should say I love berny. I I love them before he was cool, right? Anyway, can you can you go through what happened in the situation? Yeah and with the democratic national committee with burning and why you .

resigned as A I share of the the democratic national committee, one of the things that the rules of the dancy required was that officers of the dnc, of which we were as I think the five or six of us supervise shares at the time um you have to remain neutral in a democratic primary uh so you're not as a party supposed to be tipping the scales in any direction for any canada um during a primary election.

And so I had no I had no um plans to get involved in any for any candidate or against any candidate during that primary in just the hopes of like we got to make sure that this is a fair and baLanced primary so that voters have the best opportunity to vote for the candidate that they're choosing. Um I saw a couple of things pretty quickly. Number one is that the chair of the dnc at the time was woman named debby wason congress, someone out of florida and SHE SHE made very serious decisions unatoned that many times we found out about via tweet or press release um that that showed SHE was tilting the scales in the favor of Hillary clinton in that twenty sixteen primary.

The other thing that I saw was how the mainstream media and those who are supposed to be in a position to be neutral arbiters to facilitate ilitch debates and forms and conversation so that voters can be best informed in who they want to vote for. We're calling Hillary clinton the most qualified person ever to run for president in the history of our country because of the positions that he had held as secretary of state, as A U. S.

Senator, as first lady. And yet they gloss over those titles without ever holding her, asking questions even or holding her to account for her record. Especially in the area of foreign policy.

The job he was running for was to be commander in chief. To be the present united states. That responsibility to service commander in chief is the foremost responsibility of president has.

It's essentially the one area where the president can unatoned make decisions are without without education, health care, immigration. Congress has actually passed legislation. President can come through and say he hears the policies that I want.

Here's legislation that i'll proposed, but that those changes can't be made without congress working with congress to pass them. So SHE was, he was essentially being let off the hook for her record as an american, as a soldier, as a veteran. That was a big problem for me.

And so I made the decision to resign as vice or the dnc, uh, so that I could endorse bernie Sanders ers who largely at heart I believe is a non interventionist um he he hasn't focused a lot on foreign policy. Um it's not it's not at the heart of what his focus has been for decades but but he was certainly far more of non interventionist then Hillary clinton who has shown through her record to be the queen of war mongers in washington. Um I wanted to be in a position where I would have a platform to inform voters about her record so that they could make that decision for themselves, that they could see hey, in this area on this issue, which is incredibly important. There is a clear contrast between these two candidates running in the democratic primary and that's what drove my decision to resign and to endorse bernie Sanders and that's what I went on to do throughout the rest of that primary election.

What do you like most about burning the positive?

You know what I like most bottom is is he is who is yeah unapologetically so uh both in personality but also in um in in what he advocates for and what he's advocated for for a long time. So you know you can agree or disagree with his positions, but um he is who is.

Like I said, you were a long time democrats. You have a president in twenty twenty years, a democrat now you're an independent. And you're an excEllent book describing your journey, ideologically physical. Cally, through that, why did you choose to leave the democratic .

party in the book? I go into um a number of the central reasons why I made that choice ah but fundamental to them um is that the democratic party has become a party that is opposed to freedom that is opposed to the central and foundational principles um that exist within our founding documents and that serves the identity of of who we are as americans in what this country is supposed to be about IT has become a party that is um controlled by this elia's kabul of war mongers who are driven uh who are driving forward this this quote, quote woke agenda um and we see IT through their racialized of everything, we see this through their defended police um mission, we see this through their open border policies.

We see this through um how in their education policy they are fAiling our kids and how they are pushing um this narrative that ultimately is a rejection of objective truth. The fact that is a question up for debate about whether or not actually is not a question up for debate for them. They are they are actively pushing for um. You know, boys who identifies girls to compete against girls in sports, changing our language so that the word woman, the identity of being a woman, is is essentially being erased from our society. And IT is IT is the height of hypocras y and Frankly, an active hatred towards women that they are so intent on doing this and ironic that is coming from the party that for so long to proclaim themselves to be the greatest feminist in the most pro woman party in the country. I go into detail around each of these issues and more um in in the book but you will see as we go through each of these issues, fundamental and foundational to every one of them is that sadly, the democratic party has become a party that is so consumed by their desire for power, this insatiable hunger for power that they're willing to destroy um they're willing to destroy our republic, our democracy, our freedom just so that they can try to hold on to power and gain more power so .

these are just different mechanisms for power and the warm ging are related to each other in that their mechanisms to attain our power. Yes, you know, you make in a sound like only that the democratic party are full of power hungry people. So to you, the republican party, I don't know you've .

met those folks.

but some of them are also in love with power and at times to some degree politicians in general corrupt uh, sometimes within the legal bounds, sometimes slightly outside the legal bonds. And so to you, to what degree is sort of the democratic parties worse than the republican parties? So I don't want to paint a picture of like this kind of beautiful vision of republican party. There's some not power hungry yeah glad.

glad you brought this up. You know the book the book details why after twenty or so years as a member of the democratic party, I decided to leave uh but also and and IT goes through my experiences and and things that I have seen and learned along the way. But I also point out exactly that fact in the book. But from the very beginning with the prologue is we should not be naive to think that this only exists within the democratic party.

There are very serious problems within both of our political parties, uh, specifically coming from politicians who are driven by this desire for power and who are so afraid of losing that power that they are willing to do whatever they feel they need to do, which centers around taking away our freedom because the more free we are to make our own decisions, even if they may end up being the wrong decisions, but to learn from those things and know that we've got to live with the consequences. The the beauty and messiness of what a free society looks like. They're so afraid of us because they see us as the people and our freedom as the central threat to their ability to remain in power.

I think the difference that we're seeing today is that, unfortunately, we talked about this a little bit how the democratic party has become a party where you must walk in lock step with the leadership of that party. Or risk or risk being faced with um you know your reputation being destroyed, smear and and all of these different attacks. And the reason why they do that is to to put people like me and Bobby Kennedy and others up as an example of thinky. If you step out a line, if you chAllenge us, this is what we're going to do to you. The republican party has also done that. They also have um politicians and leaders who are more interested in in feeding you know the thriving system in the washington establishment ah but we are also seeing that um the republican party also has some voices and I would say increasing voices of people and I would put Donald trump in this category who are chAllenging the quote on quote norms of the republican party that are represented by people like nicki hai or mike pants for example um you know the republican parties is not a monolithic entity in IT means different things to different people and that's where I think the real chAllenge in this next election is less um it's really less about one political party over another and it's more about our opportunity as voters to select leaders are first of all to fire those who are against freedom and who are a war mongers who buy their essence are willing to take away our freedom in the name of national security and vote four people nobody's perfect we shouldn't hold anybody up on a pedestal but vote for those who um who are committed to the constitution and who hold those values that represent the interest of the people.

I'm not a fan of this choice, but here we are by versus trump. So let me ask you a sort of a chAllenging in question of process cons, give me proven cons of each. What's the biggest strength and biggest limitation of a, say, biden?

Um this is a tough, this is a tough question. I've known, i've known present bin for a lot of years. Um I knew his son boo, who served the in the national guard the same time that I did.

I. I consider job e in a friend. He is someone over the years that i've talked to and shared laughs with and spend time with in different situations.

The positive characteristic tics that drew me to joe biden of the past. They are not represented in how he has LED as president. And i'll let the pundits thee arise as to how that is, why that is.

But the truth that I I know exists, which points to his his weakness, is that instead of listening to his Better Angels, he has instead at every turn, if if you go back and you, you know, I look back to his inauguration speech, we promised be president for all americans, you know, during his campaign, promised to be the united in chief to bring the country together. That was deeply divided. That's the joe biden that i've known for many years. A guy who has worked with different people, with different backgrounds, in different political views, tried to find that at different points in time, a way to a way to work together at every turn. He has done the exact opposite of what he spoke about during his inauguration speech and has left us, as the american people today, more divided, less secure, both from an economic standpoint as well as a national security or a safety and security standpoint, and less free as a society and as a people.

So the biggest criticism would be he divided as so continued. The division has been there. Who do you be the greatest unit?

Like to me, over the past few decades, to me, obama, you've been very critical. Obama, on the form policy side and many fronts. But to me, that guy did really good. Maybe some people say just retaliate, but I think rhegium matters in your president. I think he was out of all the president we had as probably the most effective united of the people .

maybe fair to say during his two thousand eight campaign um yes. I think that his message resonated with so many people across generations and across you know different views, different backgrounds to wear you know people cried on the night that he was elected because they felt so hopeful um I I talk to people and I know people who set aside their entire lives to work on his campaign to be a part of this this hope and change mission that he laid out um that that would bring us together uh you know some of some of um the people that I know personally, they gave up their lives during the campaign and after he won they went to washington dc um because they wanted to be able to do the work that they that he had laid out and continue to be a part of this mission that they expected would extend beyond the campaign and they've expressed to me personally how heart broken they were because so quickly after he was elected, instead of bringing in a new generation of fresh leadership that was not a part of the washington establishment, he instead immediately chose to surround himself with people who were more of the same old same md who were essentially part of part of the problem and many of his actions after that um proved that fear and that broken that broken hardiness that they felt to be true and and i'll mention one example related to civil liberties that we talked about a he was someone as U. S. Senator who um gave some pretty powerful speeches on the senate floor about his concerns with the patriot, his concerns with surveilLance from the nsa, his concerns with a violation of our fourth women rights and civil liberties. But when as president, he was confronted with leaked information about this surveilLance occurring under those authorities in his presidency, he cited a, he took the side of the national security state and did not take action, uh, to write the wrongs that he correctly pointed out as senator entering his campaign for the presidency, which is unfortunate because he really did build this um unifying momentum throughout his campaign.

Would you think that is why is so hard as a president to kind of act on the on the promises, the campaign but also just mean his speech is basically anti war speech that really resonate me. The fact he was against the war in iraq, I believe, early, early on.

and that that was a huge point of distinction between him and Hillary clinton, probably one of the biggest .

what what is IT so hard when you step into the office of president to sort of act on your ideals?

I think IT goes back to what we talked about a little bit, which is you know what what are you driven by and what are you afraid of and if you are concerned for um whether or not you can get reelected um who's going to fund that reelection effort, who's going to fund the presidential library and your legacy that will follow there? There have been some documented examples around how he promised to crack down on big farma. But when push came to shove, his department of justice campaign funding was threatened and they chose not to take action even when they had a very, very strong case to make. Ah this is with regard to the opioid crisis in the country and and you know this this just goes back to the heart of why it's so essential that we have leaders who who have courage and who are focused on doing what we allow .

them to do and who are resistant to the love of money in power. Yes, td.

and we are human, we are fallible. We are flawed by nature. And i'll go into kind of the next one you asked about trump, the weakness said, and the lessons that I hope have been learned from twenty sixteen for him and his team is you you have to be in a position where you are surrounding yourselves with other people of courage who aren't just thinking about their next political job or their next job, getting a cable news contract or looking for fame themselves or looking at how they can monitise their position for their whatever their next financial interest might be.

But people have courage who know what they're up against to to really seriously clean house across the federal government and the corruption and rot that is so deeply entrenched in order to truly be effective. A and if he is rejected a that that is that is my hope that he sees that he's learned from what went wrong in twenty twenty sixteen that you know he went in you know with a largely non interventionist, more uh focused on peace agenda and yet he's surrounded himself with people who are at the heart of the war mongers in washington and who directly a went against the policies that he advocated for. Uh on the strength side, I think it's it's it's easy to point out because it's also what um has caused him to be so attacked in ways that we haven't seen before, certainly not in my lifetime by by the democrats, by that by administration not only in now but you know something that started back in in twenty sixteen when he was A A candidate. He's a guy who you know by all measures has been successful in his own life and because of that he's not coming in with this desire to please washington that many other politicians have and because he is so willing to chAllenge the quote on quote norms and these are not norms that serve the interests of the american people. These are norms that serve the interest of the most powerful um he is he is a direct threat and so that attitude and that mindset of not coming in with the kind of caution that too many politicians come in with of wanting to be the popular one of the parties or whatever IT is that they want that that is the strength that he brings.

Yeah, I just had a conversation day away and he he's good friends with from he talks to the fact that he seems to be resistant to the attacks is some mass book that that is is just the psychology of being able to understand the attacks that are they are in in the political game. And I can break. People like you just don't want the headaches.

So to understand the attacks is tough and something but his sycom gy allows for for that me. I guess the question for you also, in your own psychology, you have been attacked quite a bit. We've mention some of that some of these representations in um how do you do that by yourself like how do you not become a cynical or or uh overcompensate the other direction .

that kind of stuff IT really stems from having a clear sense of purpose. I never saw, you know why i've served in state government. I've served on our city council in hanoi and served in congress.

But at no time have I have I seen this as a cotton or political career. I don't have that latter climbing ambition that a lot of politicians have. My sense of purpose is deeply rooted in my, my dedication, in my desire in my life, to be pleasing to god and to live a life of service. And what Better way to be pleasing to god than to try to do my best to work for the well being of god's children? Being rooted in that has made IT so that as the attacks are coming from different directions, even as people who I was friends with, a former colleagues of mine, others, even family members, even as they have turned away or become attackers against me themselves because of different reasons related to politics. Um of course it's it's a sad thing especially when it's someone that you know you know personally and i've had to a personal friendship relationship with but I don't live my life trying to please uh politicians or please the people who show up on T V, or or anyone else is is as long as I am doing my best to be pleasing to god, that is where I draw my happiness from and my fulfilment and contentment and strength.

So you use talking about the value of religious faith in your life, of your hindu faith, and seeing the ba a spiritual guide. So what role does faith in god .

playing your life? It's everything. IT is central to who I am, what inspires me, what motivates me, where I find strength, where I find peace, where I find shelter and where I find happiness and this has been a constant um throughout you know times of chAllenge, times of darkness, times of heartbreak, times of happiness in in um always feeling very secure in knowing that god's unconditional love is ever present and no matter what else is happening in my life that god is my best friend and remaining centers and grounded um in always remembering that and meditating upon that truth is um that's everything to me think think about .

the hindu guard is how welcoming the religion is of other religions it's true how accepting .

IT .

is it's so in that way in many ways is one of the most beautiful religions on earth so like who who do you think god is to you like? In in in specifically the texts, but also you personally, what does he represent? So for hinduism is also a good there's also like a aspect where there's it's it's a part of all of us. There's like a united thing, not a singular figure out outside of us.

I think one of the things that most commonly misunderstood about hinduism that people don't know, is that that hindooism is truly a monotheistic religion, that there is one god, and he goes by many names that describe his different qualities and characteristics. And and as you point IT out, hinduism is a uniquely of a nonsectarian spiritual practice essentially um it's it's not a quote and quote religion that you convert into or you leave behind or or whatever the case may be a bug of a guitar a central scripture in text that comes from india literally means song of god. And the principles that that um are conveyed throughout the bug of a gita are applicable to all of us.

They are timeless truths that whether you consider yourself Christian or catholic or uh you know muslim were jewish, are hindu um these these truths uh R R eternal and and relevant through all time uh so for us as as kids growing up, um we we learned from and had bedtime stories that came from both the bug of a guitar and the new testament. My dad was raised catholic, my mom was raised a piscopal, and both of them were attracted to the bug of a gita as they were in their own lives searching for a more personal relationship with god than they had been able to find elsewhere in their own spirit. Al journeys and.

That's where the application of of there are teachings in the bug of a geta, for example, that talk about bodies. Ga bcd yoga essentially translates into a dedicating your life, striving to develop a loving relationship with god carmela. There's a chapter in the bug of the idea that speaks about carmaignac o is a word that has become a part of the you know both karma, andie, ga become very common terms. But what IT really means is um trying to dedicate your actions in life that have in a way that have a positive impact on others being of service to others.

And so for me growing up, I never really understood as a kid the idea of sectarianism of one religion battling against another because I knew and understood and experienced um that the real meaning of religion who is love forgot no matter what named you worship in buyer or how you worship uh that that is the real meaning of religion and the application of that in in your life is is um you know you ask, how do I see god in a personal way? I see I I know that god is my best friend. God is my confidence when I am struggling with with a problem in my life or you know during those quiet moments by myself um where i'm anxious or i'm sad I turned to god for that solace, for that clarity, for that strength to both know what the right thing to do is and the strength to act accordingly and and to constantly strive um to further develop that very personal loving relationship with god.

This is an honor to finally meet you, to talk to you. This is amazing. Thank you.

Thank you, lux. It's so wonderful to be here. Thank you for the opportunity.

Thanks for listening to this conversation with toxic gabbert. To support the spot guests, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from White d ison.

Hour in is nineteen nineteen sixty one farewell address. A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty ready, for instance, action, so that no potential aggressor may be attempted to risk his own destruction.

American makers of law shares could, with time and as required, make sort as well, but now we can no longer risk emergency provisions of national defense. We have been compelled to create a permanent ornaments industry of vast proportions. This construction of immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the american experience.

Yet we must not failed to comprehend its grave implications in the councils of government. We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or on salt by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.