#409 – Matthew Cox: FBI Most Wanted Con Man – $55 Million in Bank Fraud
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The following is a conversation with Matthew cox, a kind man recently released from federal prison, where he served thirteen years for bank fraud, mortgage fraud, identity theft, passport fraud and other charges. He has admitted guilt to obit.

He has written true crime stories that many of his fellow prisoners, and now he continues this work by interviewing criminals about their crimes on his youtube channel that I recommend called inside true crime. ExpLoring the mind of a criminal is expLoring human nature at the extremes, often in its most raw and illuminating form. And that is something I definitely want to do with this pocket to understand the human mind and everything that is capable of.

Hi, this is as batch one thirty four, Matthew cox. And now a quick you second mention of responsable, check them out in the description is the best way to support his pocket. We ve got four last session for a great movie bible for learning new languages, Better help for mental health.

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This is the next treatment podcast. To support IT, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, he's Matthew cox.

What was the first crime you committed?

The first mortgage I ever did mortgage me.

borrowing money from a bank to buy house. Yes, how can you find a way to commit crime in this? How can you do fraud in the space?

It's it's very difficult for the average guy to commit fraud because there are so many safeguards set up. You know, if you were to go in and say, um I make three hundred thousand dollars a year, okay well, we want your w two. We want your paste as we're going to call your employer.

We're going to check to make sure your employer how long they've been in CoOperative. They're going to check make sure they're registered. We're just like a your whole plan flipper, you know because the average guy can't do that.

He can't even become with with th Epace o f w t wo. So the average person, you know or i'm going to put down this much money, but you going to borrow that money from the seller, you know. okay.

Well, then they started asking for bank statements, where does the money come from? How long has that been in your bank? Like you can even have to put in your bank for a day, get a letter, it's got to have been there for ninety days or sixty days depending on the bank.

And and so there's all these ways for the average person is very difficult to commit fraud. The average guy that works out walmart m max, sixty thousand oh a year and he'd been there for five years and he saved as the like. It's a very that's really the guy that those transactions are set up for to borrow mortgage from back of america. That's the guy .

they're looking for. So to commit fraud in this space had to misrepresent some aspect of your identity, of how much your worth, how much money you have.

this kind of stuff, right? You have to be able to lie to the bank. Anytime you lie to the bank, you have committed fraud and it's funning.

When I was, you know, doing that, I would say in the grey area, there's no grey area lying in some capacity or you're not. So it's in for stance with the very first loan. An I did I I Whited out my borough had been thirty days late on her on our rent.

So they're really looking into the last two years. So when you go in the bank and that most of what they're asking is, is A A two year window, they're saying, how long have you been on their job? They care about two years and how long we have been at your make your residency.

They're looking for two years now you can be at three places in two years. That's fine, as long as you consistently paid for two years. Was SHE had been in an apartment complex, but SHE been thirty days late as SHE caught IT up, but he was late.

Bank, the bank doesn't want to lend you money if if you've been thirty days late. So I was a broker and I wide out the thirty day late, I just got rid of IT mean, my manager is the person that told me to do IT. SHE said it'll be fine and he was right.

IT was, what did you feel like? So that was the first fragile action is .

committed. Yeah, I I mean, know I was I was worried. You know, I was say, you know, sweat bullets for four, five days. But I mean, I was concerned, and I don't know that I was concerned that I had broken the law. Uh, I was concerned because I was behind on my on my truck payment.

I was behind on my mortgage like I banked on being a Morgan broker, and I gone deep, deep behind on all my bills to do this. So in the last minute, when this loan an isn't gona close, can I have to commit fraud? D to make that happen? And that the idea, my fear was they were gona figure that out and maybe i'd get fired. You know, I didn't think I was going to go to jail because my manager assured me you you're not going to jail like you get fired best. So my concern was they were gonna atch, IT, and I get fired and I wouldn't get paid like I needed that money, so bad.

So maybe paying to picture here, where were you working? Who is the manager?

The manager? What is funny because I I think I ever really mentioned is IT. Her name is gretch Z S SHE.

Eventually, I don't mind saying SHE eventually got ended up going to deal for fraud. Her her name was gretchen z as and he was a manager. I was working for a company called eagle lending, and I was in taipei.

And I this was like my first month, so my very first deal, three or four weeks into IT IT, into that first month. And I walk in, I put the file in front of my manager. SHE looks through everything, you know, oh, great, good, good.

And put this one piece of paper over here and SAT there. And then when he was done, I said, a, what's what's going on? SHE is perfect files perfect, but your bar was thirty days late on her rent.

And he says that it's done. He has a deal killer. And I was like, oh my god, you know, what do I do? And I remember he pulled out a one thing, a White out, the White out, not that sticks with the.

And SHE started going. And I was like, what he was, if I was you and SHE hint. SHE said, I wide out, make a copy stick IT back in the file.

Yes, SHE said, would be fine and I was, I I was like that that's fraud. I could go to jail and he was and he was like, they're gonna catch IT SHE said, look at, we do. I do stuff all the time, he said they're not onna catch IT and nobody y's calling the FBI.

SHE is the worst case, worst case scenario. If underwriting catches IT, then they'll fire you. That's IT nobody is called.

You are going to jail and I was going I trusted her. I was like, okay. And so I did what he said. I stuck in the file and having, like I said for four, five days, I was like.

how do you at .

five twenty nine, I think was twenty nine, you know, like, I had gone to college and so many things had not worked out. You know, I got a degree in fine arts. It's not not there is not a lot of people looking for anyone with the final degree.

And you, I tried, I tried to be try to be a an insurance suggested try that for about a year, year and half that didn't work out, ended up, ended up working instruction for a few years. And, you know, so finally the girl was dating, said, you ve got to be a modish worker. She's just had just arted as a mortals and the mortal industry and SHE was like, you have to do this. Like you were born to do this.

This is perfect for you.

What does he seeing you, he said, is just your salesman. And I was like, because I was like, I barely baLance ed, my chat book. Like, I don't know know anything about the numbers, just says nothing to do with that.

It's sales. It's putting together deals you you're good at that you're good and negotiating your you know your national sales salesmen. And I figured out I need to try something.

So what aspect of mortgage is sales and deal making? In what aspects require the tourism that you clearly have?

What one you have? You have clients that have lots of options. They can go to bank of america, they can go to sun trust, they can go to chase. They have have option. To the perfect credit, I ended up working for a company that was a sub prime lenders and those people didn't have a lot of options by honestly, by the time they got to that to eagle lending, that their options were over. So what is up happening is you're negotiating with sellers.

You know you would think that a lot of the stuff that in that industry that real estate agents should do, you the brokers end up doing because real said agents are are used to you meet them at the house where they take you to several houses. They you know they they open the door, they walk around, they write up a contract that's legit a legit contract and you already you're already preapproved. Everything works out, but sub prime, that's not the case.

You ve got borrowers with horrific job history. They don't have enough of the downpayment. They can't maybe they they have the downpayment, but they don't have the closing cost. So you have to go to the real state agency. I listen, I need you to raise the purchase Price and have the the seller pay the closing costs, which is legal, but that's not to a degree, but that's not how they work the contract or now you're having to get them to rewrite the contract or you have there's little things you're trying to do. And the more the more deals you get done and the more you deal with certain real state agents, the more you start to realize that there, you know, you know which ones are completely above board, in which ones are willing to twist the rules.

And a lot of IT works on personal relationships.

right? right? For some reason, people tend to like me and trust me. I don't know why IT hasn't worked out for so many people, but people actually seem to trust me.

And so if I say, hey, I close alone, but you got to do this, it'll be cool. Don't worry, we do IT all the time. It's like my third loan and you know have window in the four years and they go, okay. And then they raise the purchase Price, they add the money, they have the seller of the house give the barriers of money, they stick in the bank or they put IT in the in escrowed, the closing company. Now you're start massage deals.

What is the second time you community crime? So what how did you start to evolve from the White out?

What mean when that went through? You know, I I think a Normal person probably would have said, wow, there was one time thing got away with that. I'm good.

But for me, it's just embolden me like I just got a chat for, like, I know what I was twenty five, thirty five hundred dollars. I was thrilled. And by that time I was already working on another deal.

But that guy he made, I forget something like he'd made like, let's say, forty five thousand dollars the year before in A W two. If you based on his, based on his current track record, his etra date of his place of, he made him just enough money. But if you factor in last year's 2， he was shy.

So if I changed that forty five thousand to fifty one thousand, then he could. The one closest I get to check for thirty five hundred box, he gets into a house. I'm doing him a favor.

You know, i'm doing god's work. So I fixed IT. I kick back.

I'm terrified little bit, you know, worried about IT shown off IT clothes for five days later. They call me, he draa close. A week later, we close.

I get to check next guy that comes in. I mean, I got very, very quickly. I was concerned, do you have a house? Do you have a deal? Is that ready? I can get.

I can get you done. Now, if you are on bankrupt or something, there are some things you think you would pull your credit. You just could not help them if they were, if they had a five, fifty credit score or something and no job, I mean, you, they had to be within reason. But very quickly, IT was changing w 2， changing pace subs, changing appraisals, fixing very, like I said, verification of rent. So IT evoked very quickly for me, and you're .

essentially helping people.

So I told myself.

giving him the chance, people that have been really struggling financially in life, you have been telling yourself that this is you doing a good, good thing for people.

I told myself that right up until that those loans were solid and I was helping those people out right up until I went to prison and and I was in prison and I had a right the government asked me to right in ethics and fraud course for to help teach the nation's mortgage brokers um all loan officers and brokers have to take I think it's nine hours of continuing education every single year and I was approach to write the ethics course and IT was about that time and about the same period time I was writing writing about my book and that kind of you, I started reflecting on what I had done.

You know, the truth is like, and this is a horrible thing to say, because the first time I ever hurt you may say this. I remember things that that's a horrible thing to say. Some people should not own house.

They shouldn't be allowed to borrow. They're not a position financially, you know. And and there were, there were many occasions where I put someone in a house that they one hundred percent swar they could afford IT was I was helping them. I told myself I was helping them and a year and half later there going into foreclosure, they're stuff off on the corner, they don't know where to go. And the truth is, is that i'm not smarter than the actuaries that came up with those under writing .

guidelines. So in this whole process, how are you making money? You taking a percent?

Yeah, I charge autographs or you charge yell spread. So yield spread is, let's say, the interest rate is eight percent interest if I charged them twenty five basis points over the eight percent, so I charged them eight and a quarter, you know, eight point two five, then I get one percent of alone back as a fee. So if I charged them eight and half percent, I get two points back. So if it's one hundred thousand or piece of a property and the bank says your interest rate is gonna be eight percent and i'll tell you eight point five and i'm charging you a thirty five hundred programs y now making fifty five dollars, so on even one hundred thousand or alone you could make a nice chunk of change minutes.

So how much great area is here? You said that they're really isn't when you're lying or not.

but I mean, your feels like there is well, every time I change something IT wasn't grey area. I just committed, I just committed for ud at this level, you either you either meet the guidelines or someone has massage ged IT in such a way that y've committed fraud. That's IT.

They're there's tons of ways where you can commit fraud and they just can't figure IT out. Does that make sense? Like I mean, i've you've committed fraud and like they've look at the entire they look at all the documents and they double check everything and they know they're fraud and here they just can't find IT. But just because they can't find IT does mean that exactly doesn't mean wasn't fraud as part of this.

You did a lot of fashions. One of things you did, you talked about creating synthetic people, meaning a creating fake identities. What is what does that take to do that? To do that? Well.

so your credit profile is made up of your, you know, your your your name, data, birth, your address and you your social security number, and those are, you know, and then there's other things where you work, that sort of thing.

But what people don't realize, there are so many people other that think that the credit bureau's ready know who you are, right? But the truth is, the first time the credit bureau's ever heard about you was when you told them the first time you apply for a credit card, you they created a credit profile at that moment prior that they had no idea. So the first time you apply, you give them your your full name, data, birth, social security number in your address, and they create a credit profile and they say, hey, no record found of this person, he has no credit.

Nothing probably got denied. Well, what I realized through the course of because eventually ended up leaving that one company, and I open my own mortgage company. When I opened that mortgage company, I was I was on the inside.

Does that makes sense? Like I wasn't I wasn't a broker that was sitting out with everybody else and with periodical come in and ask questions or we're call underwriting and but really didn't understand what was happening and what exactly what the underwriting guidelines were. Now I was actually talking to the underwriters and you you're talking to the to the owners of the lending institutions in the banks and you're talking to all of the account executive. And now wasn't just eagle lindon. I was talking to there were forty different account executives coming in on a weekly basis trying to get us to sign up with their Linda.

And they are on the inside telling you, coming in, showing you are programs and saying, look, if your bar war is, you know, self employed we don't ask for this or this we just ask for them to say there's self employed like lie allows you for the term lie loan okay um or no dcc loans where they don't ask for any documentation if you's got over like let's say seven hundred creat score and he says he's been a plummer and he worked for himself then he got over a seven hundred and score he just they work for itself for over two years and they don't ask for any documentation. You got the money in the bank, got seven hundred credit score, says been on the job for two years, he's self employed, we're gona raise his insurance, ate by one percent and and he's got you know that he's he's got alone. So but you start you start to know how things work because I hired a bunch of brokers to work underneath me.

And when they would get caught, I would get the phone call. So I get the phone call from the owner of a banker of a landing institute, a lender. And that Linda says, hey matt, we ve got a problem.

And like, what's up is like like listener, we caught a fake w two and like, you mean, yeah your broke or so and so send us a file and this person had, there's two fake w tus and we assuming th Epace s us o r f ake a nd I l ike, are you serious? Well, how did you catch that? And they go, oh, well, here's what we did.

We checked with sun doc. Count you some is that gov, which is the secretary state's website that registers corporations. And we checked the tax. I D number didn't match. And I now I know every w two has to have a matching uh tax I D number for whatever corporation .

uh issued IT. So there's a sequence of checks they do to detect fraud and different .

documents like W S right. And then you're slowly learning, understanding. If so, i'm putting these things together. And I remember one time I had a woman come in and SHE came in and he had perfect credit SHE like seven hundred and fifty credit scores, I mean, was perfect and he came in and, uh, one of the brokers came and said, hey, man, he is, can show you some I was like, yeah, was up he is, look, he said, i've got this, this woman's w two here.

It's okay I looked at him and he goes, here's your credit report and here's the application. This is the, this is the social security number I went, alright and he said, this is the social cure number on the w two. And I want, okay, keep my you go to get a car alone or credit card, then ever asked for these things.

So and he was like, i'm really shocked. He even noticed that I probably might know. I've even caught IT but he they were different and I went, really and he go, yeah he said, so I did know he just brought a man she's here I was like bringing here so he came in that don't say to listen here what we just found and she's like, oh, okay, you know what I don't want alone.

I just I don't know I to listen you're getting the loan. You have seven, fifty credit score like I don't care what we have to do. We're get alone.

I just want to know what's going on. How are how did how did you get seven, fifty credit cores under this social security number when clearly this is your real social security number. You've been working for this company for ten years and your credit profiles says is only like three years old.

And I was like, what happened? And what he told me he did was SHE had been SHE went through a divorce. SHE had been married for ten years, used her husbands, I am his surname for ten years, so if this is no credit under her made name.

But when they got divorce, SHE switched to her main name um because when he pulled try to get anything in her in her husband's surname, he was denied bad credit. So he had bad credit. They're credit back. So he switched to her.

He switched her name and a friend told her if he needed to get her electric or anything turned on, SHE could use her name and use her daughters or sons social security number, which was like a four year old kid. yeah. So SHE used that.

And I went through. SHE had put a deposit down, but he went through, at least wasn't denied, so that went through. Then he went and SHE applied for an apartment with that sharing off.

IT went through. SHE had no credit, but they said, you don't have bag credit. So he said once he moved into the apartment, SHE then started getting these preapproved credit cards.

So SHE, but I knew I had lied there using my son social security number, let's say. So he started filling those out. And sure enough, you ve got a created card.

And then SHE got two, and then he got a pre approval from four motor credit. SHE won't got her self a new car, got a prove she's been making a payment ever sense, just seven hundred and fifty credit score. SHE thought SHE try her hand at buying a house in his name, in his social skills number.

And we caught IT and he got a house in that name. We closed that. I just was like, wow.

like this is was that because this seems like she's able to pay for everything, right? So well, this is highly illegal, is IT unethical, is a lake. It's it's unethical and that is messing with the system on which a lot of people rely. But IT feels like there's some aspect to the that's broken in that IT doesn't give people like her second chance.

He could have claimed bankrupcy. And then two years later, listen, two years out of bankrupt, you can go into bank of amErica and get a conventional mortgage. Assuming you have perfect credit outside the bankrupcy you have the doll payment, you make enough money.

There's a whole bunch of you know A A bunch of a underwriting guideline es, you have to meet, but that's possible. But you're right. For instance, he wasn't getting an apartment using with her bad credit. SHE wasn't getting her utilities turned on. SHE was not getting .

any of those things done.

So like back on track is just hard.

extremely. So there's a temptation and take the orca. Orca is often going to be illegal.

right? And he stumbled into IT, but SHE basically explained IT to me. And I I mean, I don't think he had walked out of the of my brokers office before I went.

And I just started making up your names and think I went I went into our file cabinet and grab some people's ten forties, which we had, you know, their tax returns and looked up children's social security numbers and just grabs the random kid social security numbers and their name and went and pull them and sure you, but I changed their data birth to be an adult pulled and sure, I came up no file found, you know, didn't say fraud or fraud ing. They didn't say miss match this mismatched. They didn't say anything.

You just said no file found. Well then we went and we pull apply for a couple credit cards using a child social secure number and then we went to pull our own credit report and shough IT didn't say no, no file found. IT just said that they're been two inquires applying for create cards.

So I was like a like that's a credit profile. So that turns into me going to social security and calling or calling social security and trying to give them to issue me social security numbers to adults that had never had a social security number issue to them. I need to get social security number to give me a clean social security number but I called up and of course, you know, i'm a novas I don't really know i'm doing so I could call up and I say, hey, yeah I was I never had a social story number issue.

They're like, how old are you? I was like, thirty one years old, you know and they were, yeah, not possible. Have a license.

Yeah, you have a bank count. Yeah, you have a social security number. Bring your driver's license and we will pull IT up.

Okay, that's not going to happen. Hanging up, call back. hi. Um my son is seven years old or three years old, and he he never had a social security number issue. Oh, okay.

Was he born in a hospital? Yes, what? He has one.

He has one. Go ahead in a kitchen, son, come in here. I'm not doing that hanging up. Call back. So I call back probably ten times. And eventually, uh, someone said I I kept altering IT kept altering what I was saying to I got to the point where I was saying my son was born with a midwife not in the hospital and the pediatrician told us that we needed to go.

We need to get social security to issue a social security number and they would say, well, he should have issued IT but that does happen sometimes so bring your son in and will, you know, you felt paperwork will have one issue in first, will check to see you never had one issue and if he hasn't, will issue one and so then I turned into, my son is out of the country and I need this and then that turned into, oh, i'm sorry or how disease I was like, i'm nearly, he's three and they go, well, i'm sorry she's over the age of twelve months old. He has to come in, hang up the phone call back my son is ten months old. He's out of the country born with a midwife, never had a social security number.

And then they go, oh, okay, that's fine. Just get his birth certificate and a shot, his shot record and you can come in, fill out the paperwork, will issue you a social security number. And that's what I did.

So I figured out how to create a birth certificate. You know, I ordered the security paper. You know, you make a copy as you avoid of copied. So I had a bunch of that, and I went online and figured out how to make A A fake birth certificate.

IT was great to cause, like the county, actually, they give you A A blink form, and then they actually show you what IT looks like, filled out, like a hand written one filled out. So I knew he was born this day. He got these shots.

And two months later, he got these shot. Six months later, he got these shots. So I just feel that out. I even had to order A A seal. You have have a seal that says, like hills brow county vital statistics, or richland county vital statistics or something.

And I couldn't get in way to make that so I changed IT to like richland county office of virtual um records and then I took like two twenty great sandpiper and hit IT over and over over going to wear down and then I had state, you know I did the inbox ment on the on the corner and you are printed IT on the security paper in boston. Nobody looks at those things. You can see rich lan colony going to see that really.

They just grab IT and they go like this. This is what you realized what I do when I started getting, started getting a driver's licenses issued by by the state dmv, right, the state. I figured eventually he was easier to just go into the D.

M. V and have to give me A A driver's license that actually make one. So but you notice, they would just grab the thing, they feel the form and go, okay, like they really look at IT.

So which is upsetting. If you put as much work into these documents as I am for them to go, okay, yeah, that's good. Sit over there. I felt like going like, hey, Brown, I take a look at this. This is art work, yeah but .

they're looking for the low hanging fruit of crappy fraud, right?

Yeah, this stuff was right there .

of some okay, so so birth certificate gets you a social security number. So intially, because you've also you you've done a lot of different approaches to creating synthetic people, this almost people involved. So sometimes it's grounded in real people or real names. And then you're right, some part is fake, some part is real sometimes and sometimes it's completely all fake.

right? Because I have the name of the social security numbering what's great as they made you, but even Better if you then you get to pick whatever name you want, you know, because when you pick your child's name, he doesn't even have to have your last name. You pick any name.

So I would pick a name, and I just say, oh, my wife's last name as this, if if they question IT, which they never did, but you know, i've got a social security number and then I would go apply for credit cards, and I get denied, of course, but they would all offer me a secure credit ard. So I i'd then fill up the secure credit card and I send them, send the bank the money, and they would give me a secure credit ard for five hundred dollars, three hundred dollars, thousand, whatever IT was. And then once you start make the payments, I pull the credit and a credit profile shows up saying that this thirty one year old man with the social security number that I know was issued, you know, a couple months ago has three, three credit cards.

They don't even say secure. They just say there's like this credit card is five hundred dollars that was issued by bank america. This one was issued by capital one.

This one was thought i've got three of them, but I had no credit scores. So at that point I kind of kick back and waited. I just kept making payments, and I remember thinking to myself, I bet you know that the credit burs don't generate credit scores for at least a year.

And I was like, god, this is going to be a year long process. And while that was happening, I started other, I was starting other ones. Could I figured at least in a year, i'll have a bunch of these cure you these um we call them like fan on borrowers, but now they call him nath tic identities.

So at least I would have these in thetis ties. Maybe I do something with them, but what happened was at six months I went and I randomly pulled the guys, could, you know, the person's credit and 7o five credit cores， 7571， six ninety five. I was like, oh my, you only needed to six twenty to borrow to get a ninety five percent loan from the bank. So I was like, oh my god, this is, this is amazing. Sure enough, a month later, the other ones I had started all of a bang, bang.

So what do you do with the fan and power? Like what? How do you make money on this? So I .

think most people, if you were just like a scammer, fraudster, you would you would probably just get credit cards and maybe build up that history or maybe try to borrow a personal loan at which is limited. You know, its personal loans are used to be, you used to be, you go up an fd I C insured bank, which borrows money. Those, you know, the personal loans they lend out at the max fifteen thousand dollars, you know. So you can do that.

You can go to this whole process of creating faker and and you getting a card, paying off, building up credit, then you get fifteen thousand.

You get fifteen maybe you know if you want to keep make the payments, if you can wait a year, you could probably fifteen thousand ah maybe you could maybe get twenty, thirty thousand and a bunch of little smaller or ones, you know get seventy five hundred because I did there was seventy five hundred dollars from city bank. Fifty five hundred is from american general.

So you maybe get what twenty five thousand, you know maybe thirty thousand and personal loans, maybe you can you could then apply for. You can maybe get another twenty or thirty thousand in regular credit cards, you know ten thousand here, eight thousand, five thousand. And then you go to the lower department store cards, and you go to home deeper boat.

You get a thousand. You get five hundred. So IT is at me. Maybe you can get fifty, sixty thousand.

Maybe if you really good, you can get up to eighty one hundred thousand dollars in credit cards and personal loans. You really know what you are doing, but per person, per I, poor identity. But I have the ability to to leverage that perfect those perfect credit profiles against properties. And I mean, ultimately, that's what I end up doing. And and so each one of those identies was worth, you know, a few million .

can explain how that work. So television gets property. So how does that work of the mortgage?

So what I did eventually, I mean, this was like, is down the road. But you know, I mean, this point, when things are just my whole life, I kind of gone off the rails. I was on federal provision.

And so what I did decided I was going to do was start running a scm, a much a large or sm. And what I was going to do was I was going to start flipping property, right, like playhouses, cheap ed, fix them up. And there's an area of tmp, a called ebor city.

So I was going to start flipping houses in our city. And, you know, I thought, OK, I can, I can buy these houses for you could buy a really crappy house at that time for fifty. Sixty thousand dollars was, say, fifty.

And then you could put twenty five thousand dollars into IT in renovations. You could renovate for twenty five, and maybe you could get an appraise, al, for a hundred. So I thought, what I could do is I can, I can buy these houses, renovate them and sell them to your regular people.

But I also had been working on the synthetic identities. And then I thought, well, or I could just sell them to synthetic identities, and then I wouldn't have to dump twenty five thousand into IT, right? And these guys are perfect.

They have perfect credit. I can provide w tus and payment PS, because by this point, a manufacturing businesses. So i've got, i've got, i've incorporated businesses. I've got websites for the businesses w to paste up. So these guys have these guys look perfect. So I figure out by these properties for fifty thousand cells to these guys for one hundred, maybe our pocket, forty or fifty thousand, I really have to do anything. But that seems short cited.

So I thought I would be even, even Better is that if I did a little bit of innovations and then I sold IT for much higher, maybe I put ten thousand clean up the outside of IT because these guys don't care what the inside of the property looks like, you know, is so and then I, but I how am I getting get an a praise for one hundred thousand dollars? Well, do you knew how appraisals work? okay.

So the bank sends IT and a praiser out. Or at that time, you could provide an appraisal, they can review IT, so they will do it's called the desktop review. They review IT.

They review IT on on on the computer. They never go out to the property or they sent someone out. They call that it's like a field review.

They sent someone out and they just look at the house. They don't go in IT though. So I have to clean up the clean up the outside of the house. So what I did was, but the problem is, is if your houses, you're trying to sell that house for less than two hundred thousand, the other houses they're to pick three comparable sales in the area, they are also going to support of a two hundred thousand dollar sales Price. Well, there's no other house the selling for two hundred thousand near the south.

So I thought, if I want to get these things to praise for two hundred, two hundred fifty thousand, I have to have comparable sales, and that appraisals going to be reviewed. So what I did was, I started, I went out. I bought this house for fifty thousand, and I recorded the sale at two hundred thousand.

So when you buy a house for one hundred thousand dollars, you pay seven hundred dollars and docks stamps. But if you pay the tra an extra seven hundred box, the sale shows up for two hundred thousand. I'm buying these things for fifty on paying three hundred fifty dollars and i'm just paying an extra one thousand fifty dollars.

So so IT is up being fourteen hundred dollars. But but the cell shows up at two hundred thousand on a house that's a crack house I bought for fifty thousand dollars. Now I go, I trim the trees.

We move the yard. We clean up the porch, we put the porch rail on. Maybe we paint IT real nice.

We black out all the windows you can see inside. But from the, from the cubit looks great. And I get an a prazosin do that with that house.

I do that with another house all within a mile, so I buy four houses knowing I could use the all. There is a subject and three comparables for all of the first thing, ideas. I bought four houses for fifty thousand and sixty thousand and forty thousand.

And I record the values that, you know two ten, two hundred, one ninety so I get an a praise er to come out there he praise is that he said, course he does is horrible, but there's comparable here. Now of course this is a bad shape and he says it's in bad shape. But I I go and I correct all that so I correct IT.

So now you if you review the oppressor and you're in california, or even if you drive your car down, your the prayer comes to the house and looks at IT from the street IT looks fine. But the truth is i've got sixty thousand dollars into this property and you're a praising IT for two hundred thousand. So the banks rated they're not gonna ln two hundred and but they lend one ninety.

So the bank is ready to land this synthetic borrowers one hundred ninety thousand dollars on a house that I have sixty thousand. And so I walk. So I scheduled a closing and we close on the house, and I walk away with sixty thousand dollars.

And the thing is like, the problem was, by the time I got to this point, I knew so many people in the industry. I nobody had to really, at that point, show up. Although i've had people show up for the synthetic and is in sign for them, almost all the closings, nobody ever showed up.

I just showed up and set to the title a, to the title agency, said, hey, my borrow, he's at work right now. He can't make IT. Can I just take the file and i'll have sign all the documents at his work and i'll bring him back.

He's like an hour and a half away from here. I'll be back in two or three hours. They're like, go, wow, that thank you so much and they would give up to me.

I'd go sit in the parking a lot. I sign all the documents. So I wait for an hour two and I come back in and say, here you go.

are how we able to keep all this in your mind because you have not slip up in any these conversations.

It's pretty easy for me to for me to keep them everything in the correct category. Does that make sense? Like it's it's i'm not great to a lot of things, but this I was very good at.

But well, there is this fan of people that exist and they were becoming real. People in your mind isn't like you're able to tell good stories with with those people, right? Because if you're talking to the applause, if you're talking to the everybody involved .

will keep mind the pressure. Almost never even bara, even ninety nine percent of the time they .

never meet. But you have to talk about them yeah so I guess what i'm masking is you're able to converse fluently about these synthetic identities.

Yeah, they all had different jobs. They all had all the jobs were basically, they were all on the job of five years. They were all was .

a lot of .

the temple exactly. But yeah, you added IT. Listen, all manufact, almost every one of them have the same birthday, you know? So because I who knows um there's so yeah IT wasn't difficult and keep ping the a lot of the brokers barely ever meet um meet the bar they call in on the phone but I didn't matter anyway because i'm walking and saying I got to slam on deal for yeah and they're like, oh wow, mad.

You got to W T S. A pace steps. You ve got all the, you ve got all the rental history.

You have everything done. It's perfect. Thank you so much.

They're happy to do IT I turn up the dogs and I haven't go sign IT great. wow. Thank you. Assuming they didn't already know about. And almost everybody involved in this by the time I was done was involved there, there was probably fifteen or twenty people that all knew I was going .

on the full of IT. They knew the full debt of IT.

yes, yeah yeah. Maybe one hundred percent everything. But they definitely knew this is fraud.

And I was still gone on with that.

Yeah yeah. Keep mind that even when I give you an example, one of my no list in this happen with almost all of them was he would buy five houses. So the guy thought, what happens? The basic design was, I buy the houses.

I record the values higher. And this person buys all five houses refinances m. He ends up, barring a little bit over a million dollars in his name.

Then, of course, then I go, and I, I get personal loans from several banks. I get credit cards. I want all of his credit cards.

By this point, I ve got ten, twenty thousand, oh, credit guys. So the guys are all worth like a million, million and change. Well, once I stop paying, you start getting letters from the collection companies right from the banks, you know, then they sell him off.

So after about three months, you're getting tons of letters. And what I would do is I would take my barr's name, I would go online and I would find, or I go in the newspaper and I would find, I would find an article about, let's say, IT like a twelve car pile up. So the huge jacket on I 4， very dangerous.

So there's a twelve car pile up. And someone in the accident was life flighted to temp A A general hospital. I would cut and pace that article, and I would just insert my bary's name into the article saying that, you know, a brand and Green was life flighted to tamp a general hospitals currently in critical condition.

I would then print that article out on newsprint. I didn't make a copy of the cut IT up, make copy the news print highlights name. And I would write a letter from branding Greens fictional sister to the collection companies, saying, several months ago, my brother was in a horrible car accident. He is currently, they've got the article, they have the highlighted name. He clearly was in in this a in this accident.

He is currently in a coma and the doctor say even if he wakes up from the coma, he will never work again that so you might as well, just for clothes on, stop writing the letters and take the houses back and that's all they're looking for is is a reason at this point. Even if they look into brand and Green, they can't figure out if is a real person or not because he's got a social secure im. He's got and and everything went bad.

At the same time, he's got rental properties or his primary residence, all of his credit cards went bad. Everything went bad. We have an excuse. We have a letter that happens. People get divorced, they lose their job, they get accident reasonable.

When they look into IT, all looks legitimate.

even if they ordered another. A praised by this point is not for comparable sales or three or four comparable sales by this point. Its light ten, fifteen thousand and thirty, forty, fifty. Because I kept making more and more of these guys.

What is your just almost like attention? What's your thinking process? There's a lot of clever is going on here. So like the the car pile up as a solution, newspaper and mail IT. Are you .

sitting there .

alone and thinking through this? How do you come up the idea? It's a very interesting and very clever innovative idea.

So at first I I thought about making like A A fake death certificate. He died, you know. But I thought, I don't know.

Like what have like some of these places had, like, you know, primary mortgage insurance. Like what if the primary mortgage insurance? Like what if they try and claim because he was dead?

Like I don't I don't know that side or like A I want to do that. I want to do something that simi verifiable. And third parties, like a third party telling you, this is what happened.

I thought, like the newspaper, you know, and you know, where do I claim bankrupt and and i've done that. I've gone and got the bankruptcy. Ms, you go to bankrupcy court and they will give you forms to mail to all of your, uh, creditors and you mail them.

They stop contacting. They wait to be located by notified by the bankrupcy court. But my fear there is nobody's gna notify them like i'm not going through bankrupt for one of these guys.

So IT was like, this is a this is a Better bet than just writing a letter saying i'm going to do in divorce my wife's keeping those houses that her problem, you know, you could there's lots of things to do with to me this was they're not going to trying how do you, how do you shut that down without him dying? How do you shut that down? This is how you shot that down in a coma.

He'll never work again. He was in a car accident. Here's the proof. He can even write you and a sister.

I watch you the letter. It's a one time letter .

that seems to take exactly, you know, here only the is exactly how that you know what Sparked that is as much as there were so many other avenues that I could have gone that I was I just didn't know you were thinking .

through all those different Venus. Are you mostly thinking alone?

I mean, you know, I had guys that was bounding ideas with ideas of there were other guys that were involved in the scan.

Um you know, everybody think that game of making like the F I said, I have like eleven and a half million or something and you know but but there are so many other people that were involved in that game that we know this guy is get in fifty, this guy is get in twenty know 8 thousand， twenty thousand and twenty five thousand and the we're just doing IT constantly. And so the bank would foremost on that property. They take IT back.

They d put IT back on me. L, S, they put IT back on me. L, for one hundred, for two hundred thousand, IT wouldn't sell.

Then they drop out, you know, one fifty wind cell, then they drop IT to one twenty five, one thirty wind cell, they drop IT to ninety. And somebody buy for like ninety IT wasn't worth ninety. But at that point that whole area had should be done.

So many houses at that point the whole area shot up. The FBI said we did one hundred and nine houses. I don't think that's true. But we we when I end up leaving tampa after that scam falls apart and the FBI shows up forms, came out with an article, whatever, six months later, and they said that the ebor citi zip code was one of the top twenty faces growing um praising areas 现在 看出 and you know everybody IT was like all that's mad because this place is a downtown。 This is a horrible place like this is. And I remember one time I had talked to a guy, you know, years later, and he was like, all all the comparable sales have dried up. Like when you left, there was just nothing even close to two hundred thousand.

You mentioned right before killing the story of this elaborate scheme that you were on federal service. How did that happen?

So I mentioned that I I own the mortgage company. Yes, right. So I start a mortgage company. I had maybe a dozen guys working for me, and and there was fraud. You know, like I would say, IT wasn't all fraud.

D, but whatever sixty seventy percent of IT was fraud that was going in there in from the outside of that, that business IT looked very legitimate. I can know we were an F H A approved lender. We were A V A approved lenders.

We did conventional, probably signed up with forty or fifty supreme lenders, but but there was a considerable matter fraud. And you know, IT kept getting, you know, if IT became a game right? You know, IT you start, I started getting this more, more creative.

Like, like I said, every time I would get away with something like you become in bolden by IT is like, nice like, hey, the underwriters looking for this and looking for this and you sit there, go and so that shit, you know, that's what I would know, what we can do. We can t create our own bank. What's yeah here's what we're do.

We're onna go on like how do they know if this bank exists that these people are in california, there are in new york, they don't know. So what we're going to do is we're going to go online and keep mind this is two thousand, you know, this is two thousand. Two thousand.

One like this, is the internet in its infancy still, right? So we figure out, I remember go, daddy, I think I had just come up with a site where you can build your own website. Like, how cool is that?

So I go online with a body of mine and we create something, call the bank of eber. You know, we cut, paste things that we like from other banks. And we ve got a one eight hundred number. You can call one eight, six number, whatever was. And you could call IT, and I would go to a voice smell.

And so we set up this thing and then ended up making bank statements, which by this point, already had been making bank statement s to to prove someone else they are down payment because a lot of times people, they have good enough credit to borrow ninety five percent or ninety percent, but they don't have. There are downpayment. So we'd raise the purchase Price high enough to cover their five or ten percent dow payment, and we would bring their down payment for them.

Or we'd have the owner of the house bring the down payment for them. And then we would have a chat cut out of the closing statement to a construction company that I owned. And we get our money back.

So they get the house for a hundred percent financing or hundred ten percent. Some turned into one thirty. We want to pay off their car, give incentive design.

Um they don't also have the money, buy IT. So we are doing all kinds of insane things well at some point. Remember crashing they is my um my old manager SHE came .

and worked for me for .

short period time and then SHE and her husband went and open their own mortgage company, which you should have known IT was going to be fragile, ate from the bigger because IT was called creative finding. IT was was create C. F.

M. Creative finance. No, creative was creative. The name yeah yeah creative was in the name. So is so SHE.

She's .

doing very well. And and we became very close, by the way, where we go on vacation when the port we go together. I got married at the time I got I was married.

Our kids, you know, play together. We baby, sit. We go each other, those parties, we're close. We're difference. And she's got a one, a mortgage company. SHE called to me up periodical and asked me, having you make A W two or having you make me a paste stop sure no problem or friends that's fraudulent.

Friends do so know if I needed somebody to to verify rent or verify somebody's um rental history or employment SHE had cellphone SHE would answer that sort of thing for me. Well, when things that happening is. Um SHE gets in trouble.

SHE started to doing fraudulent loans for some guys. no. And these guys are doing what's called the cash back. Sm, so there they're getting like a half a million dollar alone on a house that's worth three hundred thousand dollars.

So they're getting they're buying the house for what's six hundred thousand, it's really only were three hundred, three fifty. But SHE happened to be in an area where he could get at the praiser jacked up. So they they buy the house, they get two, three hundred or thousand dollars back.

And um it's it's a it's a straw man game, right is a cash back straw man's game. So is a real person is buying the house is got perfect credit, but he's willing he's willing to let to ruin his credit to get a couple hundred thousand in his pocket. So he never has any intentions.

So it's not a synthetic identity, is a stolen iden is a straw man. He's a fake kind of not a fake person, but he's just a straw man. He's a standard.

So he stands any signs of paper working buys the house. They end up getting to three hundred thousand what this guy buys, like five houses. So to cut two, three million dollars, they've lost five, six hundred, six, seven hundred thousand dollars.

And these guys never even make the first payment. They just let them go to for closer. So the bank immediately investigate and realizes this is fraud. So the FBI comes and they grab Peter gatt. Chen SHE has a higher and attorney, of course, and SHE doesn't get thrown in jail anything.

They just come to their office and they they tell them they are investigating them and they know what's going on and they want to talk to that. I could look, we want to talk to you and you're going to be invited. Okay, so SHE comes to me.

Well, actually, he came to me that, look, when can you refinance your house and get to seventy five thousand out to pay our attorney? I said, no, rm crutched gives me w to pace ubs. Fake the whole thing.

Fake I get. I refined as I get a second mortgage on our house, seventy five thousand dollars. They pay their attorney.

They are, tony immediately says you need to wear wire on this guy like he just got to seventy five thousand dollars. I don't know how you got seventy five thousand dollars. The attack y knows something wrong because the atterley like they just your whole morning company was just shut down.

There is no way you could borrow seventy five thousand dollars. So is like this. This guy is doing fragile lent stuff. And he says, yes, of course, as. And he says, you need to work with the FBI wear wire against this guy. So SHE calls me one day and says, listen, I got to talk to you the f eyes asking questions about you.

I know what and he goes here I was like, um meet me that piece of place down the straight so don't come in my office because everybody know she's been in died like everybody in her office quit when the API the API shows up and gives you a business card and announced there the FBI everybody quits so I said do not have, do not, don't don't come here because they already know they're already concerned so I go and I meet her and pete. We sit out of the at a restaurant, a little pizza, and I sit down and SHE starts telling me that the F, B, I is asking questions about me. I like, what are you talking about? Like, what are they asking? And SHE, as you look, they came in, they took our files.

And like I was like, I don't know any of this and I when did this happen? SHE is again, they have a couple weeks ago and they they and they have some of your files because I had close several loans for my wife at the time we were buying rental property. My wife didn't have a job, so there is all fraud, but I couldn't.

I could not close those loans in at my mortgage company because I owned the properties of selling those properties. I bought properties, renovated them and sold them to my wife to get around something called seasoning. Seasoning says you have to wait six months to a year to refinance at the market value othe wise.

If you want to refinance, that's fine, but you have to refinance at the Price you purchase the property that but I bought these properties for eighty or hundred thousand, renovated them, sold them for two, three hundred thousand to my my wife who ve got a very didn't we get a big mortgage? We were just trying to kind of get around A A guideline. So but my wife was not working, and I provided W, T, S.

And pace stabs. So when he says all this, he says, yeah, they're looking at you belong. You gave me at your White floes and I went, oh my god.

I said, what you did. Tell them that the w two were fake, did you? You didn't tell them th Epace o f s w ere f ake, did you? You didn't tell him that the downpayments.

You didn't tell him that we were marry. I mean, just absolutely buried myself. And as i'm telling her this, I was like, I, I, I, I was like, I kind of caught myself.

I'm okay when I look OK here's what gonna tell them. You're going to tell them you never met her. SHE called on the phone like I start trying to devise a plan that will answer their questions without getting my wife in trouble or them in trouble.

And if nobody CoOperate, the whole thing should shut. Now IT doesn't go into. There's no way. There's no way for them to go if everyone just kind of stone walls.

So as i'm saying all this, gretchen says that we can't light to the F, B, I. And I know what you talking about. You're already line the B, I.

You know, you been lying. If I know I just refined into your house before I can really say anything. Peach jumps up.

Her husband stands up. We've never lied. The FBI, we may not have told them everything, but we've never lied.

And I thought, like what who you talk and to like? I know that's not true. So you're not saying that for my benefit.

So I was just I kind of look at them and i'm like what and I just, I remember looking down, and this may mean nothing. Both of their cell phones were right next to me, right? And I remember they would probably just wearing wires.

But I just remember thinking those cell phones or microphones, they probably weren't. But I remember thinking of, wow. And I just, I looked at, I went wow and I said, well, I hope you're gonna get something for this is SHE immediately started crying and SHE says, mad, I am sorry. I I have a kid. I can't go to jail.

Yes, I like.

I have a kid. Like I have a kid and I was like, wow, I wow.

What have you learned about friendship for that? Like loyalty are .

this now there's data that is sweet.

that most of heart is cute.

I mean, I I love the .

idea of IT.

You don't think that now say, why? So I go back to my, I go back to my office. I mean, I toler said, tell the FBI agent to call me on the phone.

Do not come in my office. So I go back. I'm still trying to figure out how to weather this, right? I go back, I sit down, phone rings my secretary comes in and says, hey, agent, i'll never forget your name agency Scott gale with the FBI and I was like, okay, is on the phone and SHE stands and there I was like, close the door.

Get out and close as she's like so get on the phone he asked me, i'll come down I said, yeah, absolutely. Let's schedule IT for next tuesday. I put off four, five days um I go to my brother in law immediately who's a who's A A lawyer and he says, really tell him him exactly what's gone on but I tell me this is what happening kind of and I maybe in trouble I I need a federal defense attorney.

I don't want to know what a federal differences. I don't even know different but he said, you need a federal defense and turn the C. P.

I. So he, we want a couple. We meet a couple layers.

I end up getting a lawyer. I gave him, like seventy five grand. And he started to have been convinced. Initially, he had me convinced I was probably going to go to jail for few years. But really that's what they kind of do to justify you giving them seventy five thousand dollars. And then but the more I thought about that that you're in read, he gave me the guidelines that that supposedly I had.

I had the flaw that I had committed in with the garden, the guidelines that oversaw that um and I read IT and I was like, i'm not really in trouble here because i'm looking at a felony, but i'm not going to go to jail because there was no potential for the bank to learn to lose money so because I bought the house was like a hard money loan and then I renovated IT with my own cash and when I sold IT IT a praised at two hundred and fifty thousand, my my x wife borrowed like one eighty so there's plenty of of equity. If the whole thing had gone into foreclosure, they still wanted get their money back. And to be honest, by this time all this happened.

There was only like three of the three properties. IT was like five, but we'd always sold of you. And at this point we had just sold another two.

There's like one or two properties left. So we're selling at that moment, we were selling them. So I was like, now I kind of argue with them.

But then he wanted seven, five and I am seven, five and and then he comes back and he says, good news. There was no potential fraud. So I can get you three years.

Now, here's the thing. Here's, here's what I always kind look back at. When I first got went into his office, he said, he said, listen, you haven't been edited yet.

I spoke with the FBI. I spoke with the U. S. Attorney, they believe, and they've been told and he said, look and tell him me exactly what they have they said the the evidence that they have on you based on two confidential inforcements that you cannot go to trial I was like, right, of course I knew that and I was like, okay, he said, but he said you haven't been in died yet and they are fairly certain that you're running A A mill, right, a fraud mill over there.

And the you guys are turning out fragile late loans now they can't come and they can't come and rage your office and do anything about IT yet because so far, they only have you. But here's what i'm saying is that he said I can keep you from being and died is called. Pretrial is a pretrial intervention where we go in.

And what will, what will do is you go, you work, you go in, talk to the F, B, I. You go grab a bunch of your mortgage brokers, most egregious style, grab them. Bring those files to the F, B I.

Go work with the F, B I. They will edit them and you will not be edited. And I said, which I I kick myself to this day.

I said, absolutely not. I'm not gonna switch on them. I'm not gonna CoOperate.

I'm not going to, you know, i'd seen the godfather. You know, I supposed to CoOperate. You're supposed to be loyal.

I'm not onna do any of that and you know and so I say all of this where looking back, like I would have if I could go back in time, I would have gone into our weekly meeting with a dolly, and I would have walk in front of everybody and scooped up two or three of the file cabinet and put them in the back of a truck and said, listen, you guys gonna be talking to the FBI soon. I suggest get a turney. And I would have drove off, but I didn't.

I thought, no, be loyal, you know, don't do that. And and what happened was when my, when the other thing falls apart, right? When the next sane falls apart, every one of these people go to the FBI like they're not even coming to them.

These guys are going to the FBI with lawyers. I want to CoOperate. I want to tell you what coaxed I want to help I want. And I think, like, I never had to get died to begin with.

So you think that most of these people, from your experience are going to a sacrifice all integrity 嗨， let's 翻译 我 下一个 翻译。

why this good?

They're going to sacrifice friendships and loyalty for just to save their own ass.

Yeah that I only had one person that did not talk to the FBI. I had one person that every time the FBI or the secret service went to that person's door, SHE said, don't come to my house again. I don't have anything to say about about that.

I have nothing to do with any of this. Talk to my lawyer. This happened over and over again, and that's my wife.

SHE is a gangs ster. So are there people in this world you trusted or you still trust?

I know the problem is. Eventually, I CoOperate, and at the time I didn't want to CoOperate, I didn't believe in CoOperation, but after seeing how many people CoOperate and the way the system is set up, I think that my understanding of loyalty is vastly more realistic now. And I think that if you're committing crime, if if you're absolutely like the things I did, I did a bunch of scum bag things.

You know, I mean, i'm not killing people, but i'm doing scum bag things. I'm lying, cheating, stealing that come a thief. Now you boil down to IT, that's what I am. So you can't go around behaving like a scum bag, dealing with scum bags and then expect those same scum bags are suddenly abide by some kind of a street code and not roll over on you, you know.

And IT does happen, but it's it's like in is in the ninety percent tile of people that CoOperate, ninety something percent and people CoOperate when they're not even looking at any real time. So if you are looking at thirty years and in especially after going to prison, you go to prison. And it's like this guys, a stand up guy over here.

He got thirty years. He could have CoOperate against all of coffins, but he didn't. Nobody comes to see him.

His wife divorced him. You know, his kids ended up in Foster care. He know his friends are are, are cleaning out his house.

Nobody puts money on this on his his books. Nobody comes to see him. Nobody answers his phone.

nothing. He took thirty years. Most of those guys turned around. They end up getting invited for other things. Years later, they CoOperate.

And the best thing this guys got going for him is that he can walk around and say, or he's a stand up guy, that guy is going the same halfway houses. Me, he's problem. He's going to do thirty years when i'm going to do ten.

the stand up guy, meaning he never switched right. And so everybody is seeing this example and saying, well, i'm going to switch then. But IT IT sounds like what people are doing is there are signal, virtue signal, like they are. They would never switch and actually do secretly.

I mean, what is that? I I member, I talk to c OS at the prison one time and he said, he said, I said, shed I said, fifty percent of the guys here snatch, he uses more than that he said, but listen, he is one hundred percent of my lying about IT he said, so the is is nobody here that can tell you they they snapped nobody so there are guys, tons of tons of them that CoOperate. If eighty ninety percent of of um defendants CoOperate, you know you start doing the math and if you U S. Ten guys in prison, almost I didn't CoOperate and CoOperate and corporate like, okay, but you ask one hundred, I didn't call nobody y's going to say CoOperated.

I break your heart little .

bit that .

people back step each .

other like this IT IT does IT does. But you know what? I have such a low opinion of people you know, saying, like, I don't expect it's not that I don't like people, so I just don't expect anything of them. You know, I don't expect you to look out for me. You know, there was a time when I did, I thought I look out for you, you should look out for me, but I just don't expect that anymore.

see. But I think humanity flashes because there is a lot of people out there that do the thing that is difficult to do in terms of integrity.

That maybe, but these these aren't people with integrity. These criminals, if these were decent human beings and all, will tell you what, what you do that, or if I was a dragani, right? I needed the money.

If you are, if you are a decent human being, you would have gotten off the drugs. You would have gotta gotten three jobs. You can work eighty hours a week.

I've done IT. You can work eighty four, eight, five, eighty. You can work ninety hours a week.

You can do that all. I do IT for my kids. No, you're lazy.

You could have work three jobs for your kids. Instead you decided to sell method pandey. Well, I was.

I was addict. T you could have gotta off IT was an important IT was the easy way out. You're not someone with integrity.

So for you to sit there and say, hi, i'm gonna like a scum bag, but now I got caught, or you got caught, and I don't want you to tell on me. Well, you are guy that robs banks. You stick guns in people's faces.

You kidnap people, you toward your people. You sell drugs. You're not, you're not a moral, ethical person.

But you want you want everybody else to hold up to some ethical code. Wow, you're Robin gramma. That's not right.

Like, no, so you know I I get I get the whole o marto a code, you know and there was a there was a time when I was you delusional not enough to believe that. But you know after you go after you going through IT, no. And after going through IT multiple times, no.

that's really think about that. I deeply appreciate your honesty and this. I I think. 一名。 There's all kinds of criminals in this world, and they all have all kinds of stories.

And your stories one of I don't know if he came from desperation versus a love of this kind of game, right? But IT wasn't part of IT an attraction to the the creative aspects of breaking the rules when nobody else can. And you figure out a way to do IT.

I think, I think initially IT was I needed the money. That's the first thing. You know, you say, well, okay, well, and if you ask most, well, well, man, I need the money.

He needed the money, but and then I definitely needed the money. But then you get fifty thousand dollars in your bank and then you get one hundred, and then it's two hundred and then it's half a million and then it's a million. And what the hell you still committing fraud? D for you've got half a million or million dollars in the bank or worth of real stator.

You've your making five, ten thousand years a month, just an rental income. Why are you still committing fraud? So IT turn, I think IT morphs into the creativity in in part for me.

And and to IT was a chance for me to prove everybody how smart I was. You know, I mean, IT was done at a desperation initially, and then IT just turned into pure narcisse c arrogance. Look at me. Look at how I can do things that nobody else can do. Look how smart I am.

I just walked in the bank of america, handed them seven documents that were all fraud, illness, and they cut me a check for two hundred and fifty thousand dollars like, wow, i'm amazing, you know and guess what, they're never gonna their check and they won't know, even know where to start to try and find the person because they're looking for a phantom. So, you know, and you feel great. I felt great.

I used to I, I, I felt like, I felt like James one. I felt like double or seven. IT was amazing. And, you know, and I didn't feeding my need to feel important. You know, even if IT IT IT was, IT was even if that was a lie, because all that success was just a lie.

well, no, you are good at IT.

IT was good at IT, but IT was it's .

not IT .

was illegal and math, you know, i'm saying like there's it's not like you're i'm an action human. I'm an exceptional human being at a horrific thing. I at APP committing fraud.

But the question is, how many people are getting hurt because .

of initial thing is initially nobody got hurt. That's the thing. Nobody ever lost any money directly.

Like I didn't go and they give me fifty thousand dollars and I ran off with your money like I wasn't doing that. That was a great justification, but at some point and will get into that. I take off on the run and people do lose money.

I I didn't take that money directly in for some reason in my you know sick mind or whatever the case may be, that seems like a distinction to me that makes me feel okay is that I never said give me three hundred, give me ten thousand dollars and I ran off with IT. But I put people in the position where I damaged the credit or damage the the title to their house, and they had to go to a lawyer to fix that and and so that they go pay a over ten thousand dollars. So I absolutely cause that person that I stood to meet your victim and I owe you that money.

And IT was a shy thing to do, because even at the time I was like, all they'll make a couple phone, all it'll be fine. IT was IT fine. And if I had really putting thought into IT, all I would have known it's it's going to really affect these people.

And those people had done nothing wrong, with the exception of trusting me. They rented me their, or they oh fine at their house. They made the mistake of bumping enemy. And now they hope, ten thousand, twenty thousand dollars, you and i'm sure, a ton of anguish.

So what happened when you were a caught at first time?

So I was caught, I got three years probation. No, I took the probation.

Just that involve .

initially IT was IT was such a slap on the hint on the race allowed to still practice? okay. So I wasn't I had I couldn't own the mortgage company more.

I was a good question is like you would think you know when would be great if I could keep going um but what they said was you know you you have to forfeit your your brokers um your brokers license and your brokers business license. And what I did was I I transferred my brokers business license to a guy that essentially bought my business. They allowed me to work as a consultant in the mortgage industry.

Know, because they went, know they go. My lawyer goes to the judge and is, what else can he do so and so I have a friend is named dave Walker. He was a cpa.

He came in and he bought my business and he paid me like nine thousand dollars a month. And that covered in my bills. My wife and I got divorce.

So she's my x wife and I I don't know what to do right like I know I could you know and I was that you know I could have like no leo, look back and it's like I could clip bank corrupt um I could have moved in in my parents spare room you know something like that. But you know because I had I had I lost everything in my divorce um I A huge child support payment. Um you know not that that has anything to do like with my my x wife like I absolutely signed up for that.

Like I wanted to say that um but he was he was a chunky change, you know so what I make a couple thousand dollars a month for you know for child's support um he got all of the apartments that we have wait about a million million and a half dollars with the apartments, which isn't a lot now, but that's probably a five or six billion dollars now so he got all the apartment, so he got everything. So now i'm sitting here like, I know I can't be a mortgage broker. I can get my nine thousand dollars, but I have to help this guy run this company, train people, do that sort of thing. So what I decided to do is I was gna start flipping houses.

legitimate or not?

Well, initially I thought about doing IT legitimately, right. But at the same time, I was also in the middle of figuring out how to make these synthetic identities. So i'm making the payments every month.

Remember, two months in three more. No, no credit scores, no credit cores, no credit scores. And i'm also saying i'm going to go on to start buying houses, renovate on salem. So the the truth is we actually renovated probably one house completely. Remembers on twenty six three.

we renovate the house completely.

And in the inside, yeah outside inside it's done. It's good. K mean, this guy, actually we ve got the guy ought my business. So we renovate IT and IT just happens at the same time. I go to pull credit one day and wow, seven hundred plus credit scores.

And I went, we have to sell this thing at all like we just, we just, I can sell IT and put IT in this guy's name and let him refinance. And so that's what we did. We ended up, I ended up selling IT to the synthetic identity.

you, over the first sthetic identity name.

The first one was a joe colone. yeah. And then I started getting creative because the ones after that, I started naming.

So I had, like joe colon and an Allen duncan. But then I I, do you remember the movie reserve dogs? So I I started naming the characters after guys in the reserved dog.

So I I had a at a James red. I had a like a Michael White lee black at a William blue David over a branding Green. So then I start developing these guys.

And I thought, offered those those Normal. I'm going with these with the reserve dogs. And I thought I was so cute too.

I O is so .

stupid. That was just there, so many things, so many mistakes I made. I mean, within the fraud, there are mistakes I made, but you know, other than just the overall committing fraud.

But I was just like, I thought I was so cute and then, you know, you get from the judge and the judge is hearing about the reservoir, irs, ogg and mr. mr. Green, mr. Black, mister, White, mister, this mister and he's looking at me just like you, jack, as like and you know one of my sam, like, I thought that was cute, you know, but nothing's cute.

So, you know, plus on making fake banks, what's the purpose of fake banks? Well, sometimes you have to have your down payment in the bank, right? So if they they they want three months or the bank statements to see that, hey, he's got his fifty thousand dollars in the bank.

And the more the more properties you buy, they want to start to want to see what's called reserves. They want to make sure that you can pay all your mortgage payments. If this guy loses his job, can this guy maintain all these mortgage payments for the next six months? And so they do that and they think you're gonna, you know.

Oh, now you can do they go well, then we won't lend IT. Well, when they do that to me, of course I do. Course is got IT. Let me send you over the back bank statement. Oh, you anna, call the bank call lumb.

The phone number of the website you .

can call will get on the out out, do the whole, you know, uh, on, okay, what's IT him again? Or do you have the hot number? Hold on, you wait a little, you know, you come out.

Okay, I got to hear. I can tell you the exact amount right now. But, what is the what was is a baLance last month？ Or, oh, that does IT exactly. okay. Thank you. Click.

would you do different voices?

Or would you be i've done different voices or I just have somebody else. Do you have done or um or one of the broker, Susan and we've one the brokers that worked for me or you know Kelly or john y. Moon, have so many guys I knew they just get on the phone.

They do IT because they're all doing something fraud and we're all working together. So hey, I needed to call this guy. Need to call this guy and verify this. C, O, K, I, K, I call back.

And does this feel like an organized system was the more improved, just like dealing with the different situation .

the government would definitely say was organza. I was there was, you know you a bunch of you, just a bunch of guy? You know what?

You know what? You're joking around with everybody. You you're help in each other and it's not like everybody, you know kicking up to Tommy know so so and then .

all these new puzzles come up and you figure out this right.

you will go and you say, hey, i've got, i've got this loan. I need to get this loan at this guy's trying to buy this house and I need a loan that looks like this. Where can we go? And by the way, they cannot they cannot order a copy of his tax returns.

So you don't want to have to sign what's called the forty five or six. So they're like, okay, listen. So one so got a program that did you know you go back and with blot, you have to have this much in reserves. But you ve got the bank. Yes, I got the bank I can do you know so you you go into you throw IT out there to five or six guys .

and you're onna come up with an answer so you're on probation here. Just a to self reflect, did you start doing this while on problem because of the money or because I gave you meaning?

Okay, I you know I mean part a big part of that. The reason is I did not want move back in with my parents and I didn't want my father to see me struggling and I didn't want him to IT was my success. He had no idea. My success has been the first time he'd ever really been proud of me.

Financial success? yes. At which point, what was the first time you told them you did something else? Like you could sense him being proud?

When I became a mortgage, h broke I when I became mortgage broker and I went to work for the company. And remember, within a week, I got a client. Three days later, I got a client. A week later got a client. Two days later got a client. Like I close for loans to my first month and my dad was like, well, how much when you're going to make and I might go, i'm charging this much this I got a point on the back. I got singing on a walk home after taxes, like ten, eleven, thousands. Jesus got all you know, are you still well well, you'll see, don't start counting your chickens before that you know and and then you know to whatever three weeks later, four weeks later, you know, bomb, I got to check it's like nine thousand dollars or something are then you know the next month it's twelve and the next month it's sixteen and you know that they make me a manager and you know .

um he just he didn't know, I know that was illegible.

Now he thinks he thinks my son he's brilliant. You know he's great. He's wonderful. I had you know was certainly not probably prior to that um but you know my dad was athletic, he was extremely bright, I mean brilliant and I was a kid who had to be put into special schools, who barely graduated high school, who ended up going to college and getting a derry in fine arts because I was never going to be able to get a degree in business IT was gonna happen.

So when I graduate a college, I remember with the disagree minority, he said the best the best thing you can do with that is maybe you could draw caricatures at disney world you know I think which he wasn't a compliment but he wasn't like, hey, you could draw um so yeah he you know and then I turned around. I tried to go to work for state farm insurance, which is who he work for. He worked for them for like forty something years, and I failed the aptitude test.

So then I went to work for another insurance company, and I was an insurance adjuster. But I couldn't keep up with a workload. Then I end up working construction.

I'm still barely paying my bills. Know that basically where my dad felt like, but you know, I was polite to me. You know where gorgio, but I I wasn't. I think he felt he deserved a Better kid.

So bw, when you when you start doing mortgages, that's when he was worse.

He was like, this kids got something to, i'm driving, driving a new, I got to just pull in in a new car, and I got A, I just bought a house that was, you know, four, five blocks away from his house, from where I grew up, from where he lives, you live at that time, you know six blocks away from where my sisters married to her lawyer husband. Like i'm doing pretty good.

And then within three months we bought you know where my new wife, we buy um a quad plex and then we're going to try plex and another quad plex and a ten unit, another duplex and another duplex and a quarter and is like what the else going on to this guy is blowing up. He's going on vacation here and vacation here. And you know you know and so when the F B I comes in and they invite me and I I take the three years probation, like, I mean, probably the worst thing in the world, you know, other than going to prison, would have been just having to just sell everything and go move in and start over and sell used cars.

Not that there's anything wrong selling use cars. But I just felt like, you know, I just didn't want to disappoint him any more than I already had. So I thought i'm a flip houses and then i'll start maybe a development companies, buy some vacant lots and all this.

And then the problem is these houses of mine for fifty thousand, if I fix them up and tell them maybe I make twenty, twenty five thousand and you a qualified bar, it's very hard to find a qualify bar that wants to live in ebba city back then. It's I still think gets rough, but those same houses are going for three and four hundred thousand. So you know, i'm buying house.

I got, I got to get qualified. Bowers, i've do all the renovations. It's it's a nightmare, you know and if I you know, looking back is like, okay, well, then you gotta the bullet is just what you have to do.

I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to do IT. Whether IT was laziness or I don't know.

You know, I just thought i'm good at this. I'm gonna run. I'm just going to start run A M.

I'm going to figure out how to drive the Prices up by the houses for fifty record ramat two hundred thousand, then have these synthetic identities by all the properties against them, pull out the cash, make six months worth the payments, let them all go into for closure. And that really, really started working well, very well. I had one time where I had a guy.

IT was James red. The sync guy did. He was James red, and he'd bought two or three houses. And there was somebody at the office who was friends of somebody who knew the title company where we were closing loans.

And he called that her, her name was mary and said, mary, this guy, James for red, like coxes doing some shady James red doesn't even even exist. SHE goes and looks at the file of the last couple files and he realizes, of course, obviously like this kind never showed up. SHE remembers cox picked up the files like, and he's saying he doesn't exist.

So SHE freaks out. SHE calls the mortgage broker. Mortgage broker calls me mortgage broke, calls me up and has listen, mary said she's not closing the next one unless James red shows up.

I went, wow, that's a, that's a tough one and she's like, OK. So what you want to do, do you want to go to another title company like this to close like three days to three days? I said, what when he's going to have to show up? Then I said, i'll figured out like, give me a couple days.

Let let me figure this out just like, okay, I remember that's gonna en, you don't exist. Keep mind at this point, I don't need, as I don't need a real, I mean, I can, I figured out how to kind of make a real idea, right? Like I can make one.

I could take sandpaper and sand off the information on a regular I D. And then I would print the the corrected information in reverse on a piece of transparency, and I would glue IT over there. And you could still see the holograms and step IT actually worked pretty good.

I know the cop is not going to be going to pass muster with a cop, but somebody is a bank like I was able to go in and I would open a bank count with IT. Well, so one of the things I had done when I was closing these loans was I would go online and I would pick you. You have to pick a photo of somebody right, to put on on the driver's license, right? So i'm not making a fake ID for all these guys because I don't need a fake I D for all these guys, not with my picture on IT.

But I need a fake. I need, I need a copy of an I D, but I need a picture where I get picture. So I go to hills burg colney arrest website, and I would find people that I knew that had been arrested.

And so I found a guy named a air tomorrow who had been arrested. He like, I know what I was, the D Y, or domestic violence. I forget what I was, but there was a picture of him.

So I print out the picture. I cut IT up, I paced onto a driver's license, and I make a copy of the for James red. That's what i've been giving the title.

People, when I would close, i'd sign all the documents, and I then that copy so that they look like they made a copy for of the of IT. And then they would notice ze all the documents, even though the'd never seen this person. They have a copy of drivers license, everything sign, cox, signed IT.

It's good notarized. Here's your check. So what I do is, I think, let me see if I can get here to do this. He's been, I knew, had been prison before.

So I call up eric, and I remember one of my bodies like he's never gonna do this and I was like, I think you will, I think you will so that's how and that's really that that kind of like you think what you think now let me try and let me call him. I don't know, bro. Like that's the kind of conversations you're having like but really looking black .

of the open a few sentences that you have of him.

I got I can tell exactly what I said because I is burned in my mind, he comes in. So what eric was doing at that time, he's actually working for, he worked for somebody else, but periodically know we buy a house, we call him up. We would say, hey, can you you and your boss, can you guys come over? Trim the trees of this house, trim all the trees, take all the crap in the yard.

Cleaned up, they go. Yeah, sure. No problem. Because that's what he did worked for like a handy man service. So they would come and they cleaned up and they do that.

So I say, can you come over? And he was guess so he comes to the office, whatever, few hours later. And he comes in the conference room.

I said, here, what's going on? And he says, he says, you know, going to say, yeah I said, listen, I said, i'm a tell some I need a favorite he's like, OK cool he's like, what is IT I said, you know, all these houses we've been, have you going clean up? He's like, yeah, we have that you had you painted that one house you did this, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know, I know, right. So here's what we've been known. And i've been buying these houses for fifty thousand dollars, recording for two hundred, and then I have these fake people buy them.

And I explain, I just lay IT out for and he's like, 哇哦， that is like that fucking about that ingenious man that's that's smart like, wow, no, I was like, okay, I say, yes, I know that's great. So here's the thing I said. The title company who's been closing some of these loans and we have a closing in a couple days.

SHE wants this guy, James red, to show up. And I need someone to show up as James red. And he goes, wow, he is who you going to get to do that? And I was just think, just like, you know, understanding, i'm not confidence in you because I need a friend, you know so and I like I said, I was thinking you might do IT he is like it's just a big favor.

I said that IT is a big I could be a lot of trouble and I said I know and because we will wait a minute because I can't go, he said, you have to give these people a driver's license. You say the driver's licenses. You were using mug shot.

You said she's closed a couple of these share. She's seen this guys picture. I go SHE has seen this picture. I said, the thing is for James red, I pulled the mug shot offline of you when you were arrest a couple years ago and he jumps up in your mother buker and I go, I said, eric, I said, I hold on, hold on.

I said this, said, I said, I only did that because I knew if IT came down to this moment, you were the only person that I knew that could pull this off that I have a balls to walk in and do IT and he SAT there anyone? Yeah, you're right. You're right.

And I mean, I can't believe felt that is this guy would beat the break of me. He was he's like five ten, five eleven, his boxed. He's a big guy so like i've weather that part the storm and he said there he was, right, right? He goes, well, i'm not doing for free. I'm doing IT for nothing.

I said no but of course, don I me know what like you're making a lot of money as will keep in mind a lot that money goes back in the property is not like we're walking away with, you know guys said like tens of thousands were really walking away with hundreds. Thousands is not like I walking away with a bunch of money here. We got to put, we got to buy more properties will keep you going with a pain.

Now I know, but still I can get a lot of trouble. I said, I understand and bro, I know. What do you want? And I remember thinking if he asked more than like ten or fifteen thousand, like I just, i'll do IT myself, we'll just change title companies and will go and i'll do IT myself and exact there anyone I want five hundred dollars and I went five hundred dollars listed, almost started laughing.

I mean, I was like, I put my hand and I was like, five hundred dollars, it's going to take you thirty minutes on my pain now you got to sign first and he's like, all, you know, all so I know you're good for and you for five hundred box I made a fake I D form. He goes in to the place. He signs change.

Red comes out. What was even for ny? What was unna about that was when we walked into the title company, we're sitting in in the lobby and mary comes walking out. SHE looked at, mean, he is mr. Rocks aren't a wire here.

SHE is I told Kelly that was the broker is I told the broker that i'm not closing alone unless unless James right shows up and area stands up on q OS i'm James and SHE was like and he was hold on the second SHE runs in the back comes back with the file opens IT up SHE looks at the picture and she's i'm so sorry a give me five minutes i've got a file prints of the dog he goes in signs and when were there she's passing out the checks five thousand here, twenty five thousand here thirty five thousand here, seven thousand here. Six thousand here so he sees all these checks my I I got that. I construction coming in and I, I have that.

I'll take care of that. I'll take here. There I get all the checks and I leave.

Who goes? Sit my ali. And he sits. Danny's light grows a lot of money. A lot of money goes back in the properties here and he was still bro, and I said, and I counted out five hundred box, but listen, a week later we had another closing so I he comes in, I said, hey, hey, what's going on and I said, I need you to do the the James right thing if you i've been thinking about that, I did that way too cheap.

I said, I get IT, man, how much do you want? What do you want? And i'm saying if it's if it's more than ten or fifteen, I do with myself.

And is there he goes, I want a thousand dollars. I got thousand dollars, god, so I gave one thousand dollars and we, he did another one. And but by that point I was like, five or six, we've done five or six with that guy.

And after five or six, plus the credit cards, plus all the other things like their credit scores are start dropping. You know if I was seven hundred thousand down, like six hundred and at six hundred, you couldn't really borrow enough to make IT worth IT. So I got to have other people in the wings waiting. So um you know we were just I go out and I run up the credit card and and pull as much money, pull all the money out out of the banks and close the account and then stop paying .

and he said a lot of people knew yeah he was one of the people.

that he was one of the people.

Why do you think nobody is said anything? I.

well, I mean, I think everybody was making money. The appraiser at that time, I had an a praiser. Eventually I would do the praiser software, and I just start doing the praise of itself like why give this guy .

five about um so so you are doing the praise of yourself. Be possible. Is there check against that. Is there there .

is that is funny. Nobody ever questions that you actually have to have a license to get the appraisal software. So I get an a praisers that we're working with. I get her license and I I I uh create a um an email address as her h so he was a sense .

tic razer right IT .

was a real person. But I end up ordering the appraisal software by by um emAiling IT was called alamo alo a praise al software so H I end up emAiling them as her and they go well we can give we can tell you software unless we we need a copy of your licence bomb here's your license so I sender the ice are then the license and then we pay for with a credit card.

You know you could go get like a Green dock car, you go put five hundred box on or a thousand software was fifteen hundred box or something so you pick him like back then. And you know, long time ago, so fifty hundred box, they made IT to us. And now i've got the software. So now I can, you know, I can do the applies myself.

What stops you from praising IT? Not for two hundred thousand, even more.

There's no comparable sales. So no matter what you sent to the bank, they're gona look at IT like they're gonna a their pray in house or praiser is going to do, uh, a desk top review. He's going to go online, he's going to check to make sure all their praise, all of the comparable sales are sold for what you said they sold for, are the same square footage were built, what the pictures look like, where how far they are. They double check everything. But you know, he's some guy who is on salary and he does, you know, whatever forty or fifty days a day or something that doesn't take come on and to a cheaper that way where we pay for their praises of those, the whole thing got IT.

So everybody is getting paid right.

And so at this point, i'm i'm doing that right and i'm getting caught. Periodical.

can you give an example what you mean getting caught?

I'm living in tampa heights, which is right next to e bore city and tampa, right? This is all these are all like little suburbs of tampa, and they are all built back in the nineteen twenty years eighteen ninety and one thousand nine and one thousand ninety. I I bought this eight unit building.

I renovated IT into a triplex. I mean, i'm driving ity. I'm dating A A woman that I should not have been dating.

I can mean of what he was thinking um so i'm you know on on vacation like everything that life's good so but every once, well you know like where you know where things happen, you get a phone call. Hey, this is what just happened. And I one time I got a phone call from same broker Kelly.

Kelly called me, listen, we ve got a problem. This was. I want to say this is Allen duncan. This is one of the first ones that I had done right but we use them.

But, uh, and so he, so he calls me up and says, listen, alan duncan never made his first mortgage payment. And I A friend of mine or one of my codefendant, when we closed on that loan, we both got checks for whatever forty or fifty grand keep mine were also buying. Some of this money is going into a business account.

We're buying property or but so not like i'm pocketing hundreds, thousands of dollars or you know even twenty or thirty thousand dollars on every clothing. I'm more like i'm getting twenty five, ten, twenty and this guys get in ten and this guy is get in fifteen and then we're taking sixty and we're putting in into the business count, a lot of vacant lots. So we're building some new houses, were trying to have take all this and turn IT into a development company, but we soft to pay our bills.

So you know, my body's got to go to he's got to go to, I am at least for two weeks you he's from belgium that you apparently have to do that at least once a year. So um he he was so when I gave him his check, the check I said, look, you're going to make the here's IT like twenty grand or fifteen grand but you're got to make the payments on this thing for the next six months he was no problem. I said, okay.

So he calls me up a month and half later and says, hey, alan, dan did not did not make this first payment and I went, oh my god. And I he was actually renting the apartment downstairs for me. So I run downstairs and I opened the door and I go, bro, and did you make duncan payment and he turned rn is like, is he do and I was like, oh my god so I run back I grab the hot of he didn't make IT he didn't make IT he is like, okay, well, here what's happening?

The account executive is calling. They've got the file and was called south star bank. South star bank has IT. They're reviewed IT. They've already been ordering documents that they they are saying in the disgust there's there's a problem they are it's falling apart like the whole things fall. They know something wrong.

but they don't know exactly what, just something that .

he didn't tell me that on the phone like SHE saying there's so the wrong they are freak out because the account exactly didn't really know. He just got a phone call saying, hey, have you ever met this this broker? Did he meet the guy who is the guy who wasn't pay? We're calling the cell no is answer ing.

And really most of this was was my body rudy fault? He is not any other stuff here. Anything is was to be doing.

So we go to the office and I call south star bank. Uh, I get the secretary and I said, look, I need to talk to whatever guy, the big guy was. He was one of was like the president and one was like the somebody else, anyway, vice president.

So I said to talk to so in vice president, he says, i'm starting. He's in a business man I said, will lisa tell him this is Allen duncan you go tell him is Allen duncan ins on the phone right now? I'm assure you he wants to talk to me.

She's like how I hold on and I mean like twenty seconds you know, speaker phone hey, mr. mr. Duncan uh, this is so and so and um you know i'm here with the with our lawyer and the president of the bank and our head of fraud.

We were just discussing you and I was like, okay um I understand that you guys um I haven't made my first payment. I said I actually came back in the mail, I had the wrong address, was completely my fault and I apologize. I said, but I can get your cash check today.

I will overnight IT no problem. I hope that's gonna OK as they way, way pass, we pass. That said, okay. Um what's what's the issue and they were like, I mean, to be honest, I think i'm talking Allen dunk and I don't think there is an Allen duncan and he's like, I mean, your social security number was issued a couple years ago um that we call the bank um and and this was I we had gone with like south a sun trust bank right so IT was a real bank so IT wasn't our Normal bank and they called they don't they don't have any record of you and I was like I have never been happy with self start bank there if you know sounds like a banking air um they're like you I don't think this doesn't cute, he says.

I don't think i'm talking to Allen duncan right now.

right and you terrified you have to .

be playing a college I mean.

I know what say no you're talking talk like I can't say that like i'm just got to keep running with IT just like, okay look and is like you know we call the dmv this know they don't have a list for you in the in the know in their website. We think that the uh, we don't think you exist. We're still waiting in for phone call back from who. So so so so i'm just like, oh, my god, and I said, have you called have you called the authorities yet? They were like, no, we haven't.

But once we put our file together, we will and then the head of the fraud department, they said, oh, by the way, mister, I forget bit the head of the flaw depart is the work for the FBI for like ten years or something or twelve years and I and I said, I mean, i'm just like, and by the way, the right of the broker is there and my boy rudy is there and I mean, there he's pacing the room, she's in tears, crying like there and i'm like, okay, i'll fell as that. Where's this headed? Where's this going? What are we going and and they so they're kind of chocolate and joking about IT and I remember being like thin.

What's that like? It's weird. And I said, look, what do I just let me just pay you back.

I said, will get the money. I, what about you? I M worried about the money, about getting in him the money back.

I don't want you, just let me. I'll catch a jack. I can get the money back.

Like, what are I only like one fifty or something. I forgetting exactly. There was nothing. Are you one hundred fifty thousand? Let me go to check for hundred fifty thousand and they were like, now, now, you know that, uh, we'll get the money back when we foreclosed on the property and that's what I was like.

They think the properties worth like a hundred ninety five thousand dollars or something and I went, oh, I said, I understand. Okay, do you have the appraise al in front of you and they were like, yeah and I said that opening up. I said, take a look at comp. Number one, that, oh, by a guy name, you know, lee black cop.

Number two, you know his own by, you know, whatever David, deliver whatever the names were and I, my, you know, like black, silver, red, I said, I am all those people and I said, let me tell what i've done and I tell them, just let I said so you can call the FBI, but you're not gonna all your money back or you can let me give you your money back and we can let this. We let sleeping dogs lie. The whole thing goes away.

I apologize, you know, I had every intention to make an other payments is a glitch you caught me, know, my bad. And so these guys are all just like, oh my god, like, now there they put me on hole there. Look into the file.

They come back. And I remember IT at some point we go back forth, back for, and finally they come back and they said, listen, you save the money. I said, yeah, well, first they come back.

They threat me. H, when we give us to to the F. I year, I said, that's not true.

I said the money was deposited into a bank account since been moved. The bank upon bank count has been closed. It's been removed in cash.

That money has gone. You will never see that money. I will be cutting you if I pay you back at all. Theyll be from another count. And so the FBI agent ends up saying he's right.

Even if we caught him red handed, the likelihood that any of these funds will be ever be recouped is is zero, like there's almost no money they ever recouped. And so we end up they put me on hold again. They come back and they go, how quickly can you get a cash or check and I go, and like that day I go get on a cashier check overnight.

The cashiers check, they never called the FBI. They never did anything. Now at that point, we actually ditch that hole that James are Allen duncan, I remember at that point, we went to the mall, ran up all the credit cards and just throw everything away and walk away. Because IT was shot, you know, that whole that I was shot, I think we barred whatever.

eight hundred thousand .

dollars or nine hundred thousand od. It's it's insane how how bad IT was and in less nothing. I had caught by, uh, washington mutual one time I was called by washington mutual where we had done six honor.

I do relaxes. So if you say you're gona live in a house, you can get about ninety five percent finding. But if it's an investment property, you ve got to put down twenty percent, you get about eighty percent financing.

So a buddy of mine who was a sharif deputy, we had his wife by, i'm to say, six owner occupied duplexes, saying he lived in every single one of them. Well, you can't owner occupy six dwellings like IT. Is that fraud now where in her w tus and pace ups were correct, but he didn't put the downpayment.

Then even the doll payments we didn't put down, we actually got cash back. But months later week that they called the a lawyer from washington to mutual end up calling, uh, the mortgage broker and saying that they ended up with two of the hour occupy duplexes because washington mutual had a credit line extended to one of the lenders who to linked the money so IT actually was washington mutual. So was a couple months later when they went to sell, sell IT in up and they package them together.

And salem, they realized we have the same customer with two duplexes side by side, both of an occupied. This is fraud. So SHE comes in, he tells me, oh my gosh, this lawyers on the phone, this is what happened on my god.

Wow, this is horrible. I end up getting on the phone with him. We have a huge, we have a conversation and I like, know he's like, look, you know, this is a big deal.

We can call the FBI. I'm like, look, who knows he was involved in this. Maybe somebody on your side was involved.

Maybe somebody on my side. I don't know what my mortgage broken did. I'll deal with her on my own once you just let us refinance the properties.

Not only did we talk him into the allowing us to refinance the properties, he gave us a reduced um a reduced baLance of what we owed him because we couldn't we couldn't borrow enough to pay him off. So they took like a twenty thousand dollar hit just to refinance those properties. Never called the F B.

I never did IT. IT was absolutely fraught. I I broke up one time. We got call with over a million dollars and loans that he had done that were fragile ing pinacle bank, which was out of a chicago.

The owner called me and he was like, look, your mortgage broker did this. Like there was a bunch of a council checks, they were fake cancel checks. So they look like they had run through the bank for the somebody y's rent but they hadn't.

Does that make sense? Like you pay your rent, they deposited IT goes to the bank and they ve got all the numbers and everything. Why I had a bunch that were blank, that all you had to do was sight, fill out your barriers information, and then you cut and paste his form at his name and is addressed the upper left hand corner.

You make a copy of of IT IT looks like cancer checks with twenty four of them. Well, one of my brokers was using them for all of these files. Like even if person really had a rental history he didn't want to order, he just did this.

That was easier. yeah. Oh, so they catch a million dollars with the loans. They call me up and then they caught another million dollars, but they'd already so them the household bank. So while i'm on the phone with the the owners names gary and we're talking, he's like, looked this is what we found.

This is this this is what happened and I remember I said gary thing in this conversation, if you think I cut in you a chat for a million dollars, don't have IT you don't have IT and this is what I own the marriage company and he says, um no, what i'm asking you for your word that if any of these come back on us, they're in florida, they are in your area. You'll help us get rid of the properties you'll will forego. We're gonna to resell.

M, I don't want to be flying down there. Just help us get rid of. I said, the absolute of force, no problem.

I said, what about the? I said, what? What are you gna do with them as well? They're going to be a part of A A package like a three million dollars package were selling the household bank.

The other ones they had caught had already been sold. The ethical thing to do is to contact household bank, say we will buy those back. We are gonna care if it's not what happened.

In fact, gary flew down a couple weeks later, took me and several of the brokers, not that brokers, but several of the brokers out to dinner had a few drinks any openly admitted he's like, I don't care if all the loans have fought in them as long as they don't come back on me. That's what i'm concerned about because there's a clawback clause for one year he's like. So if they can perform for one year, I don't care. That was IT. How many people .

in the industry you think are Operating like this? Um and by like this, I mean in in the affirmation grey area.

I would say there's probably after like the like after the two thousand and eight financial crisis, I would say cleaned up considerably. But I would say at this point is just as bad as I ever was. And and keep mind these a lot of allows that caused the problems were like they call them lie loans or or you know no no qualification, right? No quality ones, right? No income.

Um what those loans are, they exist again. There are some prime companies are doing that again, if they call him some prime anymore, they call him mr. They got some other name. Yes, every branded yeah, they every branded a little bit, but it's it's happening all over .

again IT just seems the whole the whole real state slash banking system is very prone to this kind of corruption.

I mean, but but but how how can you fix IT? Like if if a lot of the things they fixed, a lot of the manipulation they fixed, but if you tighten IT too much, then the average person can get alone you. So you know, and the thing is, some of these loans but sometimes changing A W two you know should that person i've gotten into that house? No he shouldn't know he didn't qualify um but he makes all his payments.

So it's like, is that a fragile alone? Yeah but IT performs. So you know I think that I would say that I think what the FBI statistic was IT was like twenty percent or thirty percent prior to the oos out prior to the the financial crisis is like twenty or thirty percent of like bank loans. They were saying that contained some kind of fraud, even if he was just a lie. Know if you want to cut thirty percent out of this, out of the know, that's a time, that's a time.

See you on probation and you're doing these. You almost getting caught. You're almost getting caught and you're doing these really large scale scams. How does he get to the point where you're on the run?

So i'm doing multiple games, right? So it's not just that i'm doing the scheme s with the the reserve doc scams, right? I'm not just doing those guys.

I'm also creating other identies because i've got other people are involved. They they want to do a sin. So this chick I was dating, SHE wanted to SHE wanted to run a scam.

So I set up A M. It's some I complicated. But the bottom line is SHE ends up stealing a real person. We steal a real person's identity. I have a real person's identity.

We get a driver's license in her name, open up some bank accounts, go rent a piece of property in her name, and I transfer the d the deed from the property out of the real owners name I transferred into her stolen identity. We then refinance the house like three or four times. And so he starts going to these different closings. And she's name is Alice son, and she's pretend ing to be A A A poorly and woman named rosy depress.

Um alison has Brown hair, blue eyes, rosy, depressed, clearly doesn't so alison, when we make the ID SHE dies her hair black curls is a little bit and gets the pictures pictures taken of itself but before SHE goes to the first closing to get a check for like a hundred thousand dollars, we've like three of these scheduled SHE changes her hair color like that. He dies IT back like like a dirty blond. And SHE goes to the first closing and he gets a check to check for one hundred thousand years.

I don't know what I was like, ninety five or hundred and five, whatever, roughly one hundred thousand dollars gets a check at the closing they give you to. We then go to the next closing was the next clothing, the the title person hazard sign of the documents? But she's looking at like sometimes not right, looks at her I D makes a copy of the I D looks at and says this this doesn't look like you and she's like, you know, you don't looked her spanning and she's like, I have her spanning.

What would he want and she's like, you don't mean but keep mind, the photograph was her so he is saying this doesn't look like you but it's her grandmother her SHE had knew the curly hair a little bit but that's IT so Allison is like, it's me and she's like a look i'm not going to give i'm not going to with the check yeah I like to sign the documents. You know we the check, i'll let you know so he goes, get in my car SHE said Alice and there's a problem so we're driving on the road, he explains IT to me, I realize, you know, okay, that's done. It's over where we're not going back, but we're not the other clothing.

No, no, no. More closings. We're done. And and I and I was probably more of a yellow screaming and yelling, like, what the hell did you do? Why told you not to change her here? Why would you change your hair like that when he came in like the day before? And I was like, what did you do? What did you do? And you like to change my here? What's to be deal still me? Sure enough. You know that's like it's not that I knew that that was gonna happen. But why attempt fate?

How do you meet?

Like what the more burger? okay. And and I had done some fraudulent SHE need.

SHE were for another mortgage company. Sorry, I SHE were for another mortgage company. SHE couldn't get alone closed. The owner of that modest company called me and said, look, we've a alone.

We need IT closed and I say, great and I when guys will come as a great, i'll come pick IT up. I'll give you a three hundred dollar or five hundred refer. Phy, no, no, it's a couple of hundred thousand dollars.

We want to close IT if you can close IT. I can't close IT. We need A W two or we need this, we need that. We can't figure out how to do IT. So I go over there and typically I convince ed them just give me to emotion, not going to close SHE SHE was you have to see this check SHE was gorgeous SHE was gorgeous very flattish made me feel like I was stand and handsome.

So um like SHE gets whatever he wants um so i'm like OK look, here's what you do and I explained to her do this to do this and IT here IT will close and SHE we close IT SHE starts calling me right. Hey, how's that going? We go to launch nexi you know we start sleeping together.

SHE realizes what's happening. SHE says, I in on this. So now we do the closings.

We're on our way. I say, look, that checks dead. What SHE is.

What about the other? The other one, I go to know it's all dead. We're walking away. Now that was easy for me to say because for me I had money. She's going through a divorce.

She's broke, you know like not and none of this that I take into consideration of the time, by the way, to me, like now that dad, we're done, uh will start over again well and she's to her in her mind SHE was about to make we were getting probably was a million dollars in SHE was about to end up getting, you know whatever was half or one third of half a million dollars in the next week now she's got nothing so um he says, look at at least cash this one and I had a body name, travis haze, who had been we actually were we've been friends since high school. We were like best friends, right? Really close friends in a high school.

We were so close travels were sorting a scm, this one who hers was in clear water. His was in orlando s on all i'm getting on all over the state at this point, right? So he's running in a orlando sm that's already yielded half a million, maybe more.

He's still he was still refinancing property, right? So he's about to close on another hf, a million knowledge with the properties. He's got A A bank account that's open. SHE says let's give IT to travel, have him deposit in his account.

He's already called out like three hundred thousand out of the account and she's like, shouldn't a problem was like, um no, no, no and she's let me call him, he calls him, think I call them in and he ex playing the situation he's music is okay and I said, no, I don't think is okay. I don't think is okay at all, and he is like, that's not a big deal. Just give me give me the check.

So I give me the check. He goes, he deposit to the check. They say they're going to hold IT till IT clears. You know, that was kind of a thing back then. He takes, I don't know.

No, how long to five days? Six days? Whatever IT was, he was supose to go back, and I would have cleared, and he would have been start pulling money out. And so I call him one day because I license bugging me.

So I call him and I, hey, we're yet he is i'm actually on my weight of orlandi and I said, okay, he was, but let Alice a know i'm not getting any money, he said. The bank manager callin said that because the check was over one hundred thousand dollars, they have to witness me endorsers the back of the check or they had to see my something right and for me to come in. I well I something wrong, something wrong.

Don't go the bank um what things right? I think of the cops are waiting you, that's what I think from and he said, i'm i'm in the parking lot right now. I just pulled in the park lot there no squads and is now he said, it's fine.

You're overreacting, bro and i'll never forget what he said. He said, you're shaking like a little girl bro, calm down. I got this.

I'm cool with the manager like, the manager like, because you've chopped up with the manager, he's going to let your fraught illite checked through. So he walks in. The cops are in there.

They locked that the he, this told me later, you and they closed the door, locked IT. The cops are in there. They grabs and they bring him downtown he didn't say anything. You won't say anything that's not true but so he told .

me saying he yeah .

so um he what the ends up doing, what ends up happening is we can't in touch with them and so we're calling and calling calling and then finally I decided, you know what i'm not gonna all his cell phone anymore.

I'm gonna call the name of the person he was um that the synthetic identity is never right so I go and I call the synthetic I did these number I call and I say somebody answers and I go, hey, is so and so there and he said, and it's a grof authoritarian voice you know, this is law and for any and he's like, no, who's this? No, this is officer, so and so who's this? And I I was like, this is lee black.

He said he, how do you know so? So I was like a click and I just hung up and I called for like a payphone. So I turned zed said he got arrested.

And then later on that night, he showed up on the the county website, the arrest website, showing he had been arrested. And the next day he calls me, he asked me to get him a jail like you to go. So I have to give his brother in law money.

You know, we get amount of jail. He he got out, yeah he got out for like nothing. And here's when I should have known, like he was CoOperating.

Hd, he went from like three hundred thousand dollars. Ond down like ten thousand dollars. So five thousand box. So right then I didn't know if time, but obviously that means we're gone to let him out of jail. He's CoOperating so they let him out of jail.

I go and I get him a lawyer, a state this was state, by the way, IT wasn't federal. So um I get him a lawyer for like fifteen thousand dollars. I he come, you know he comes here.

Of course he tells me, look, they ask me a bunch questions. I told him that he made up some story about this. He's working with another guy, but he doesn't know guy's name.

He made up a name like a whole is this whole kind of thing where he tells him about me, but not me. And exactly that. You know the numbers.

None of numbers LED anywhere. So they all lead to cell phones that are only being used for those scams. So it's a dead ali or blind dali and I am like OK OK and I mean, i'm paying him like he's coming in.

Man, I, my truck, no good. I need another truck. I buy another truck.

Hey, man, my the electors going to turned off and I don't have. I need a thousand dollars. Of course.

Here's a thousand dollars. I don't know what I was. I'm embarrassed you had ask. Here's a thousand.

No, week later, you know, he needs two thousand for this, one thousand for this, two thousand for he wants to start a tree trimmer company. He needs to buy a tree tremor. How much of those five thousand? Of course, ten.

So I given another twenty five thousand starts like a treat trimmer business, which he runs to this day. 嗯， what I don't know is that, you know, the whole time he's actually working with A A task force has been put together federal. This is state at this point.

It's a state task force because is multiple counties involved at this point. And IT wasn't hard for him to explain like this. This this comes back to reservoir dogs.

I got a much all I head to say to the office, or was, listen, you ve got to let me go. I can't do any prison time. I want to tell you about a much, much bigger game.

And they go OK. Well, how can you prove that game? Pull up hill road county a, her old road county tax appraiser website.

Okay, look up the name James red. Look, all of these were bought six months ago. Six months later, they're all in foreclosure.

Pull up the black. All of these were bought. Look, six months later, all more for closure.

Hey, pull up. James ring. You pull up. Branding Green, pull up. So all of these are going in for clothes.

I mean, is so like where I thought was so cute, not cute. Who is stupid? And so he very quickly, they put together task force. He's working with them on the task force and um we're still buying houses, flip and houses doing everything because I I believe and I believe he's not he know he's saying, look, if I to go to jail for you know a year.

So like you know and he's also paying, you know he hasn't paid them back yet, but he but we're saying he can pay them back. I like, look, if we get to the point now when we get to that point, like we'll pay them back um but we haven't put them back yet because we have no way to show where that money came from. We can always go to like one of us, the relatives, and gives gives dad forty grand, give us mom twenty know that kind of stuff and start put in mind that way.

And all that money was taken out in cash, too, so we could always shop with a chunk in cash regardless. Know is still in the process, and I think that we're still in the process and IT could be six months or year away because the slow thing, i've already been through the process, my first time when I got in trouble and I was a year, but from the time that I was spoken to until I plead guilty and was sentenced. So um i'm not concerned about IT.

Well, that's happening. We're still flipping properties. And one day I have a body name, Steve sand. Remember the share of deputy and keep mind that is funny because like i've done bad loans for police officer, chefs, um lawyers, doctors like you across everybody across these aren't like all you know yeah everybody .

guys that know .

these aren't all like you know construction workers or guys that work in our mechanics these are like you are legion ate people that have credit problems or whatever the case may be so one day i'm sitting at work and i'd been getting phone calls for the prior week from people at tittle companies saying, hey, matt wanted to let you know we just had some soup as served on several of your files and i'm concerned like that had been concerned then a guiding jeff testers man starts making phone calls.

Jeff testing man is a reporter for the same Peters work times he's calling people saying, hey, um I know noticed that you sold the piece of property to leave black. Have you ever met mr. black? You seems like and they're like just hanging up on him or saying, no, I don't know you talking about i'm not sure that guys name was let me call you back. I'm getting phone call from people so I know some things up with the newspaper now. I know some things is being looked at, but nobody really talking.

I know that there are so penas being um being served and i'm i'm nervous and i'm i'm very concerned and then one day i'm in my office and the share step ty walks in Steve son in his uniform to which everybody always stiffened you know when he was walking so he walks and I go to I said what's going on his head and usually he's joy and last stuff and and he says I got to talk outside I was like, okay, I walk outside what's up and he says he to date this girl in the like the temp of police department or something right I was like, okay said he showed up in my house this morning like six o'clock in the morning I want okay he said he said that she's been working on a task force and he said, apparently one of your bodies got arrested and or landa, they're investigating some other thing and clear water. They're investigating a tunnel properties here in in uh ebo, tampa heights and then there's like a hundred properties involved and my name came up because you've sold some properties to me, which I had in in his life. So he came to me and said, look, your buddy cox he said and I go I was like, okay, he was he said, well, task forces on you and he said to stop talking to you because they're onna, come a rest in a couple days they just handed over the task force findings to the, to the F, B, I.

And the FBI is going to come arrest you in a couple days and he said not to talk to you because and because you're you're going to CoOperate and because all like color guys CoOperate so he thinks you're onna CoOperate and and not to talk you because he's afraid you going to get me him up and he said just to walk away and he was like, so I thought you should know and I was like, okay and I said, what you can do I said, all you know I, well, first he said, what? What should I do? And I go to tell him and tell him that I arranged all the loans for you.

You came in. You sign the paperwork. I fill out all the documents.

You sign the paperwork. You, you know, arranged everything. I you're not a merge worker. You don't know if this is like jet.

Like you sign you have perfect credit, you sign the paperwork, you walk away with a jc for thirty thousand, you don't know. And he was like, because he did, because he had a job with a share deputy. Like, i'm not, you know, I went and I lied. I would lie for alone at the bank.

They said we can, you can buy the house and will give you thirty thousand dollars so of course I to do that, that's not gonna en, but he doesn't know and I said to tell me out, tell me CoOperate like absolutely um he's what are you gonna do us to mess and i'm i'm leaving now i'm leaving I said I can't I can't say here I can go to prison like I was just since them on federal probation right now if the judges going to be cool with me, get popped again like, I mean, he I can do IT can't do IT I said i'm leaving. Can go to prison. I'm adorable, bro.

Like, you know, I I saw so shine for temptation. I know what's gona happen. I can do good look. Yeah, I can do that. Thank 个 like I can you know， I can not going defend myself against a guy who sticks for three and tid IT up no so and you know and I am not i'm no benefit to again ah I am a non violent, no soft White color criminal so I was just like just like i'm leaving. I'm leaving.

So I actually went on or actually I was able to, I started cut in checks to people, right? So I cut, check the a Alice and john y til, like everybody I could think of, here's five thousand. Here's seven thousand years.

Eight thousand here six. Here's nine. And had them going to all these different bank accounts pulling out cash.

But this is not a thursday at o'clock. So the next day they show up with cash, write some more checks, they go again. I did about eight grand and cash, that's all I can get.

Um I go home that night. I start packing in my bags and I was dying this this chick named uh rebeca huk. We've been dying about a month and SHE shows up at my house.

You know, I hadn't returned her phone calls all day, apparently were supposed go out night forgotten. I had bigger issues. And so i'm packing a couple of doubled bags and he walks and she's like, what's going on?

Like, um i'm leaving where you go on so h was to go out at such, go do something and I am I am leaving over and and he says, what happened? I tell her what happened. This is what happened. She's like, oh my god. Like he had no idea.

He had no idea about anything.

You would. No, I D barely know where. Like, I mean, she's coming over two, three times a week for a month. Like, i've you know, this isn't love, this isn't, you know, this is a booty call.

Then I saw IT is like, we're hanging out, we're having sex and that did I just never know you so SHE suddenly just begged to come with me. You got to bring me with you. You after this, after that, like what are you talking about? Like you you've got a you've got a son.

You have your mom lives here your anc's just in tears and crying and SHE suddenly said this is was funny about he said he just moved from vex to to um say Petersburg to work at the dog track to work for a company that the drug track right but a casino interest are like a gaming company and SHE said, you don't even know why i'm here. I was like, okay, what are you here? SHE said, i'm here because I was working for a law firm that worked for the the casino company that I work for.

SHE said I got caught in bedding. Nothing was like ten or fifteen thousand dollars from my boss because he had a gaming habit. And he said he didn't call the police because we were sleeping together and he was afraid of his wife would find out, SHE said.

So instead he vanished me here to say, pete, my son just came deal with me. He's been caught sneaking out, uh, because he, the father had raised them. He only been living with her and he got the Flora and she's like, I was, I was gonna him back.

He's fAiling school. He's smoking pot. He had been caught thinking out after curfew, like I I don't know in this. He said he was going back in december. No, he was going back after the school year, which would have been like me okay.

And i'm like, so where before five minutes earlier I thought he was this sweet secretary, sweet, innocent secretary and she's like, you know, i've been married three times. I am a gambler. I have blamed bankrupt y i'm sleeping with my b boss.

I got like, you know, SHE went from this saving, adulterous, you know and I thought these are all really beneficial to my in my future plan, you know. And I shouldn't have at that moment. I was so just flipped out and concerned and up and leaving your life and everything you know behind. It's terrifying and you know and and so now you're alone and in a strange place.

And the first time you've done something like that like leave the gone road.

Yes, so i've never just up and moved and and keep my now I can't call home. I can't like. I like there. There are things that I feel like that you caught and everyone watched tons of these TV shows and know there are certain things that get you caught. You know, one of them is keeping in contact with anybody in your old life. So i'm thinking that's that's not going to happen like i'm not contacting, i'm leaving and that's IT and I didn't really happen. I kept in that I call my mom everyone's well but I was like, um okay.

that's cool. Did the loneliness of that hit you early order now like as something I never did.

Well.

you're living in your life. I mean, there's a IT feels like a fundamental .

transition. Oh, listen, think I mean list not just that. Like i'm leaving my my son. I have a son and I know I was I was leaving everything. I was just terrified of going going to prison and you know, I mean, I I just be just to bigger air against IT know I should stay like I made things so much worse, but I also thought i'm smart. I can, I can figure this out, like I can change my identity, blinding.

i'll be fine. Aren't you already? Like, people know what your face looks like.

They do. They do. But I want. The first thing idea was I got plastic surgery.

What kind of plastic I ve got?

I ve got a nose job. I got what I call a mini face lift. They go through your back of your ears and they suck out all the fat your neck.

That change appears .

much that a little bit um I got I was bolding. I got a two hair transplants in a two hair graph so the hair in my head, listen mir my hair but it's fun back here so there's they cut, I appreciate IT. Um do they replanted there? Um you know got lipo section, just other stuff. You're got my teeth done that sort of thing, you know so and I this was kind of like my plane, i'll go, i'll take off.

I got eighty grand, i'll steal some more money, you know? But I I let her come with me and we ran up all my create cards over the next few days, packed up the car, traded in my my ali and got like an ali I know was like an a six, or like a ford, or like a big ford or whatever was got that and draw state to atlanta. And so I wrote a letter to my parents before I laugh, just explaining, this is what's happening.

I'm leaving. I'm done. I'm not going to prison.

Love you. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. I know my disappointment.

sorry. Well, so I take off. Go to atlanta. When we went to atlanta, I already had the name of a guy name, Scott cog, now that I done alone for.

So I had his, his, you know, his, his vital information, right? I have his name, data of social security number, mother's made name, and where he was born. One day we were having a conversation, and I just slowly pride to all that out of them, right? Like already we done alone forms.

Or I had his name, data, birth, social secure number. But I need to steal as identity. I need to know where he was born and his mothers made name.

So through the course of conversation, I just pride. You know, you know, code, no. Is that? Know, what is that is? I like, I rushes now.

It's such, such, what? Your mom, oh, such as such. Okay, yeah.

You know, we born here, you born and want you from, I was born here, born in such, you will be, you know, like, I so was no big deal. We get to atlanta. I make a fake I D for both of us.

But I have a driver's license. I do, but there they are, fake. Like, I can give this to a, to a cup. Think of a driver's license. This is David freeman.

What's David's residence, florida, or is George?

This is froda, but he was just made up name. So I gone to, like, high school with a kid name David freeman um so I I had an idea, but I can give that to a cop like I enough to get like place or do something.

So we go go to atlanta, make an set IT up, make some business cards, set up a couple website, set up some h um get up a an H Q which is that like the company that will you do virtual you rent virtual, you rent offices and y'll answer your phone for like hundred box a month and they'll for them so seems like you have a an office, they give you your phone number. You call up and they say no hi united southern bank you know i'll answer the fund and ford messages so we get one of those make a business card for uh for beaky SHE runs a house from a guy name, Michael shanahan. So we rent Michael shannon house.

The house is like two hundred thousand and two hundred thousand nine house and alpha a and I then go to another way. I then order Scott cognos birth certificate, social security card. I think I registered to vote in his name, and I think we I made at least agreement his name, and I think that's all I needed.

And then I went to alabama and got a driver's license in his name. So I went in the dmv, give all these documents, and which, almost all reality, for the least. I said, sit over there.

I sit over there. I sit down. Bm, twenty minutes later, I, A driver's license.

No, twenty seven dollars. IT was nothing. So I get the driver's license. Now, driving this, i'm driving in a car an already that is in the name of matos. So I parked that.

I then go get social security to issue me a social security number in the name scot cog, no. And I then turned around, I go and I get alone. You put on twenty thirty percent.

There's all first time or first time buyers, thirty percent down rent get like a honer or something. So now we're living in a house. We've got some furniture, bedroom furniture.

And I go downtown. I pulled the title to this guy, Michael shen hands house. And I go downtown and I satisfied alone on his house.

So he had two loans with think of america. And so I may create two satisfaction of loans from bank of america. So Michael shana hand owns a house in the name Michael shana hand.

He has one mortgage with bank of america, a second one. When you pay your mortgage off the way public records knows its paid off, is they mae public records, a satisfaction of mortgage? The one page document? And it's not right.

So two of those .

I filled out two. I created two of them. I just ordered, you know, you can read the research.

So when I went downtown, I researched bank of amErica satisfaction mortgages and you thousands shot up. So I just grab a couple of them. And now I know what the basic template is.

They're they're all different, by the way. So you know that you even have to be that close. But what a rayna c some of them, uh, what?

I had a notaries stamp, not hard to get you you go, you you go into three different, you know, office, deep POS and you say, hey, I need a little thing up and you give the information and you come back for day or whatever a week later and they give you to you. So i've got these notaries stamps. So I notice, zed, the satisfaction.

I go downtown, I file them, bomb the mortgage are gone on, keep my bank of america. He still paying the mortgage is they don't know that they have been satisfied in public records. They are not notified.

So those are gone. But IT takes about a month or two for to show up. Atlanta was that far behind. They was falling county. They were just way behind. So we just kind of have to stick around for a while, right? So we're going on little vacations were going to neurons.

We're going to different places as scot cot, dino driving car, Scott t know, are we open up several bank accounts with multiple bank accounts and then um we are not going to vegas and we don't get we do go to bed. But what happens were driving around, I remember thinking, telling her of, like, you know, this is the problem, like we have to get real ideas, real driver's licences. And this is real, but this is a real person, too.

And he may stumble. Ross IT, and so what I deal was, I start running ads in magazines saying, homelands available, good credit, bad credit, no problem. call.

Now, government loans, you know, government V, A, F, H, J, I know, call this number. So people, people are calling, and i'm getting their information. One of the guys I got was Michael accurate, the area, Michael echt.

Poor Michael acred actually, actually legally changed his named of Michael Johnson at one point. But at this point I was just Michael accurate. So I don't I wanted to see you.

I'm bored. I wanted see what the processes, how much is the cost can IT is as possible. Let me see five changes. Guy's name IT was IT was fifteen hundred box.

I changed IT with him ever showing up and you are so you .

can a driver's slicer SE in his name, right? I am him. So he did show he show up at the lawyer's office. He, yes, right. So i'm so I do that. I live in in the house um and we're drive along one day and i'm saying and we gotten get real like these people that are calling like that one guy.

I I get this information but during the course of taking the application and i'm asking like these these government survey questions at the very end, it's like twenty questions that i'm ramming them off. And at some point he was like, he said, he volunteered like, I didn't. I never been asked me about about criminal history, and he just hinted up saying something, well, I do have a felony.

Does that matter me? Like he was, that moves A D, I had a couple of D I, I got my license back and that was part of the reasoning, had bad credit. And I was like, okay, no, no, does not matter.

Don't worry. I think you alone. So this is i'm just taking your, just stealing from you so in your information so I get all this information. I'm i'm gathering IT.

And so one of things I said to Becky while we were sitting at the stop light is I like, we got to get real people's real information and I said, life references. I said, what if I steal somebody y's identity? I get a driver's license in his name for states from where he lives, and he gets A D, U.

I. I could get pulled over two years later and get arrested for A D. U. I, that he got in florida.

And she's like, do you think and you think like, like criminals? Or am you think like, like prisoners, like mental patients? Like, and I want, I mean, I don't. And I looked over and there was a homeless guy holding a sign, and I went like, that guy, no free SHE goes, she's the hobo like, I know who calls the hobos and she's like the hobo I said, yes, that guy I said home on pulled over to a subway, got out. He went inside to get subway.

I walk across the street, pulled out like twenty box and I said, hey, bro, can I ask you some quick questions or quick is like a yeah, what's up and I know here's twenty box I said, listen um I said, when was last time you're gainfully employed? He's like that ten years my go, okay, do you have a criminal record? I ve been arrested in mr.

Miners like, you know, figurate cy, and he named of some things you don't drink in public, whatever. And I was like, are you on provision? Because I can't can't I can't do provision.

They don't give us provision that keep us for ninety days. They released us like the judgers I can do. I'm like a shop for a provision.

I'm like, okay, do you have a driver's license? He's like, maybe I don't think so. I think it's just I goes that to get the right now. I think it's just expired. You have a driver license with you is like, no, I got nothing mico kay, well, you know, he told me, lived in like a tent in the woods and and so I game like another twenty box, asked them a few more questions and and and then I remember in the middle of IT, he said, he, you taking a survey or something and I, when I remember, think that I think I, I, I kind of chocolate.

I you get a lot of surveyors out here like that he goes, yes, and sometimes and I was like really good yeah he said like the um he said people from like you know halfway houses and what did we say up um social workers and stuff they'll come out they're y'll pass out stuff. They'll ask questions and stuff and like OK and I was like I felt that's good to know so I go back, I get grab Becky and she's like, I SHE said, did you give money as I can, my forty or sixty box or something, forget what is you like, test what a waste money. And that was good.

That was money will spin. I said that guys perfect. I said that guy is, he's got everything.

He has no way to be contacted. He has no documentation on him. I said he's he's not going to drive a car.

He's not onna get A U I. He has an expire license. I just had to get his license reinstated, and I can be him.

So I went home. I typed up a, what I call a federal statistical survey form, and I made a little thing. I mean, I went online. I am always selling out federal with documents as a morge worker, so I looked identical.

I mean I had like this little like the the recycle symbol and I was like a federal form seventy no seventeen, you know um and so I print out these forms. I get to go buy a clip board. I make a little a salvation army. I D I pin IT on me and I go out and I start .

um service.

I started in the most people don't judge me, bro. I was in a bad spot. I was in a bad spot.

I see the judgment. I see the judgment. Let let's maintain civility here, like stay neutral, stay through so .

most guys, I mean, they they have a security number, a birth certificate, I guess I mean, there are real person, real person.

They are just not using .

their real person yeah they are not actively engaging with the economic system, financial systems that they are employees don't have housing .

or like they file taxes so I one of the questions I even ask the guy when the last questions I said, do you believe that you will be gainfully employed within the next two years? Everyone I am said, no, no, no. So you know, was like cocking there are trying, and they all had alcohol problems, or honestly, that few of my talk to.

I was pretty clear in the taste, literally five minutes, less than five minutes to fill out the form. And I filled IT up form, of course, but even filling IT out in that brief, just asking questions back and forth. Half of them, you could tell you, got some mental illness like sometimes is not right with you.

Like these are guys that are going to go out and get are going to get jobs. They are not cleaning up. So they were perfect for my purposes, as horrible as I know that out.

So if feel bad about this little, little small tension.

if I feel bad about IT the almost .

people in the society, I really is a difficult life, like dealing with mental illness, dealing with drug addiction on that kind of stuff.

I am being in prison. And then the people that are in prison that you know are are going to be homeless or have been homes or the mental illness that i've dealt t with the halfway houses and even doing this. I don't know what you do with these people.

I don't even know that you house them. You can't nearly even house them together. You know they they cause such problems like I don't know what the solution is other than just kind of keeping unfed maybe and keep them away from Normal people, you know so they don't cause crime or whatever.

I don't know about housing in one area that seems like a mistake, like there is absolutely no good solution to that problem. None because it's not like, hey, if we gave your house so we gave your job training and we gave you this, okay, you might get five percent yeah ten. But most of them are on the street because they've just messed up over and over and over again. And but I just can give up .

but you know I guess we still have to remember that their human beings, and we mentioned off my software other balling, he highlights the humanity of people who've had a real difficile life. He does IT well.

He's the mark later is amazing. He's amazing. And one of the things he had said was like, these are, he was like, these are real people and it's like their stories.

He's like, they have stories and they need, you know. But if you also talk to mark, he'll tell you you can't, you can't give a money. You can't like, you can't like he's tried of every time he's reached out and tried to help these guys putman apartments, set them, got them back on their feet.

Within six months, they're back on their back on the street and just IT just happened over and over and over again. I mean, I think the amount of money that would have to be dumped into correcting that problem, I don't know. I mean, you can say what you have IT just, you know, you should do IT because it's the right thing to do. Who is paying for IT complicated.

But for your purpose, they they have work here, the number, they their box.

they think very happy.

there you are. The cupboard taking server, right?

Took a survey, went home, ordered there, and they know the course. They give me everything, named the very social charity number, a mother's made name, where they were born, have they ever been in the armed services? Have they ever had a passport issued? What states have they had identification? And have they have been arrested? They been on problem? Have they ever claim social security disability?

S, S, I, I mean, even if I like seventeen questions that they absolutely answered everything, what high school did you go to? Because high school transcript ts are great for documentation. A lot of times they'll ask you for high school, you know can get us a copy of your high school transcripts like that's good now and i'm a big believer in overkill.

So I mean, I ordered a tony stuff if I needed three things to get a driver's licence in your name, right? You know, i'd come up with, like six, because what you do is you get in front of the guy, the D, M, V, and you kind of fumble through, like, uh, I got this. What else do you need?

You know, I know exactly what you need, but know, is that high school change? I'll take that and voter registration card. Give me that.

Yeah, that's your proof. You're good. Sit down right over there.

Who is, by the way, lurking in the shadows trying to catch you. You mentioned F, B, S, you could service. You mentioned the, I think if you mentioned, yes, marsh is interesting.

Cops, general, the police. C, I, G, X, C, international. F, P, I is internal OK. Well, so who is when you're doing this? Who are you afraid of?

So by the time i've gotten to atlanta, within four, five days, the fb I read in my office, I guess I kind of miss that fda back in florida when I left and drove to atlanta and laugh. Remember this FBI was gna show up. A few days later they were going to arrest me and they did, they did. They showed up like I left on a sunday night or something used for some reason in my stupid thought.

I thought, well, they won't arrest me on the weekend like they don't work on the weekends um so they came on like whatever IT was like a tuesday wednesay thursday like within a few days they come in the office, they read IT they're looking for me but i'm going nobody knows where I am and so now I am am serving the homeless guys and I turned around and i'm ordering their documents and as their documents are showing up, you know i'm i'm going to different states and getting. So i'm going to florida. So over over the course of this whole thing, i've had twenty seven drivers licenses and like seven different states, i've had two dozen passports.

Because if you're going to get the driver's license in the guy's name, you might as well get, or an I D, even remise, what, get a passport, because the passport is not difficult to get. They don't finger print you, you know, all they look, all they're doing and saying, this is your I D and where you born here and then they run a check. If if IT comes back or doesn't in back, then you could do IT expert ted IT. And i'd have IT in like two weeks. Like now IT takes like ninety days for sixty to ninety days to get one.

But and if you have multiple ple ideas for a single identity.

that's more proof, right?

So what number did you say? How many? How many ideas? How many identities?

I i've had over fifty identities, but i've had twenty seven driver's licenses issued from state D, M, V, department of motive vehicle. Til I walked into the D. M V, said, hi minings, Michael accurate and I just moved here about three weeks ago, four weeks ago.

Here's my lease and here I lost my, I lost my drive license problem like, I don't know what I do that I know, I know what happened, I know and they're like, you know, sorry, what what do you have? You I need proof of residency, what I have my lease, oh okay, um I need A A A primary. Uh, okay, here's my birth certificate, okay, and I need to uh a secondary.

Here's my social security card, but I also register. You know, I, I register to vote. My girlfriend made me vote immediately.

He said, I was perfect, good. We need that. Okay, great. Stand over there. Pay that person. They call your number two, seven, five, you know, forty five minutes later you go.

You pay your twenty five box, you stand from the the screen that they take a picture, you get a driver's license, you walk out, it's still warm, is beautiful, smells like pot plastic, amazing. And so I am opening up different, different big accounts in these guy's names. And what .

what you mostly doing, what I think is opening up different different accounts. You a credit starting started.

some of them like I might order um I might order uh secured credit card. So I can't get that you are building their credit like it's not helping me in anyway. I'm just sending out five dollars to get A A capital one card or an american.

I'm sora bank of amErica secure credit card, whatever. So i'm building their credits, but not all of them, only a few because i'm color, although i'm collecting them. I'm also going to be moving soon.

I'm only here to get a few hundred thousand dollars and move. And he is some kind of a base. So I don't want to start getting credit cards and building up A A history in atlanta in any boy's name, but I am getting driver's licenses in other states. So I i've been like north CarOlina.

South CarOlina was the primary method of income here. When you move to a place, south CarOlina a how do you make a hundred thousand right now.

living in this guy's house, and I satisfied his loans. The houses were two hundred a thousand. So what happens is one day we go, we check public records and I told IT takes months for to show up.

IT shows up. He's got no mortgage on the house. So now I turned around.

I make a fake I D in the name Michael shahin, and i'm living his house, but I have no credit. There's no credit. So i've got to the the I, D, I.

I've got a social security number, and I ordered some secure credit cards in his name. So if you pull that credit profile, IT does IT shows up saying that some credit cards, but they in the only a month or two old. So I can't go to like bank of america.

I mean, I could, but I needed to give the money as quick as possible like I I want to get out a bit lanta. So and at this point, by the way, there's multiple articles showing up in tampa. So the same Peters where time is is writing multiple articles about me .

with your face with .

my picture yeah but it's honestly it's prety i'm not free on neighbors. It's post internet, but it's IT is in its infancy like nobody is. It's not huge.

And honestly, it's a it's a local newspaper in tampa. It's not that big of a deal. Like i'm not concerned about that so much at this point. What i'm concerned about is getting a chunk of money and just moving on and kind of establishing ourselves in a Better way where we're not living in a in a building that we're going to be committing fraud in with our house. So but i'm living this place.

I make a fake I D in the name Michael shanahan, and I call up three secure, sorry, three hard money lenders, a hard money lenders, a guy that lends his own money or other investors money on property, kind of like a bank, but he's lending his own money, so he doesn't have to really meet the banking requirements, and he can charge a much higher interest rate. These guys are charging twelve, thirteen percent interest, simple interest. And they're only lending you A A much lower percentage of the value of your home.

So not lending you ninety percent of value. They're lending you sixty five percent, sixty percent. So I call three of these guys.

They all come out of the house at different times, and each one of them says all one hundred thousand or like one hundred and fifty thousand, hundred and fifty, like they all then roughly one hundred and fifty thousand. So we schedule three separate closings. None of them know about the other person.

So what I do is I close I close one loan on, let's say, monday and then one on tuesday, and they want on whatever wednesday or thursday or that have been the same day, to be honest. But I don't remember that the point is I go to three separate title companies or real state tourneys and we close and I get checks for, you know, after a cost to everything, the total ends up being roughly four hundred thousand. So i've got four hundred thousand and back and I run another scam and in ta hai flaught a and we get like fifty grand and plus the eighty, the eighty dowdle down to close and nothing because we had gone on several vacations.

We went to like bermuda. I think we went to jamaica. We actually stated the ritz and in jamaa. So you very nice.

And Becky, so Becky turned out to be pretty good. H, in terms of scams on the road.

Now orrible and SHE just spent money all the time. And by the what I realized to very quickly is she's bipolar. So she's bipolar and she's absolutely insane. SHE smokes pot all the time.

Did that matter for you personally? Or did did actually affect the how good you were able to do these particular .

ams IT was that he was the type of person that would start an argument at one o'clock in the morning, yes, and scream at the top of lungs and get the cops called OK. So I can't have the police called. I can't get taken downtown and fingerprinted.

I can have the police showing up. I don't know who really who's looking. We haven't had plastic surgery at this point. We're still pulling money together. so.

Oh, becking.

yeah, back is a problem. And at some point I actually switched to a like a psychiatrist and they they give her, they put on soul, left SHE takes IT for like a month two. And then he stops taking and he he thought he was all Better, like, you're not all Better.

So give me a time on here. How long are you able to be on the road here? successful? Ly, three years.

three years. This is me.

This is the first few three years.

So three years. yeah. What happens is we get that little chunk of money, we put a deposit in these bank accounts and we start pulling out cash um and which works out fine because we got a bunch of accounts and were pulling out little seven thousand, five thousand and eight thousand.

And you know I would cash checks against her accounts, and they would call her to verify us. There's someone here trying to cash a jack for nine thousand dollars, you know, can you verify the P. E? And they go, oh yeah, that's scot cog.

no. Okay, thank you. And they catch the check.

You know, these are new accounts, so IT looks odd, but you know we are always, I open the account. So what woods of happening is. We're cashing them. And I remember getting really frustrated because just taking forever and I gone into a bank one time. And if they have banks with they, they cash, they actually cash like large checks.

And if you go in to big american, you train cash check for fifteen thousand dollars or twenty five thousand, they probably won't do IT will tell you we don't have that much cash on hand. We know this. We know that they have certain banks that do that.

So they told me where one of those was. I went there. I had a checked like twenty nine thousand.

That had been cut on a closing for Michael shanna hand and refinanced Michael shanna hands. And then I got a check for twenty nine thousand that was issued to Scott cog. now.

So i'm sitting in the bank. I go in there. I said, I need to cash this and he says, you going to talk? The manager, okay.

SHE says, go sit down over there I go. Sit down in a little glass cubicle. He comes over. He says, I see you are trying to cash this check.

And I was like, right, he was one of you just deposit your own bank and I went my bank. My bank is a credit union or something and it's in like florida. Like they'll hold this thing for like two weeks.

Like I need the money now if people I need to pay you like wall. I'm not sure and I was like, what's fine? It's it's a cash, a shack. Like it's good and he was, no, it's it's good. It's good as you have the money and you like that we have the money.

He said IT just odd um whole on he goes back in the back and he comes back and he says, where did you get the check cashiers check I said he was a cashiers check IT was drawn off of a clothing for um somebody y's property that I I were doing the company I work for, we're putting on a addition on, okay, that makes sense, comes back. What do you need cash? I was like I cashing guys checks that worked for the company.

Like there's lot of these guys are like mexican guys. They give me check. They go to a check cashing company or they get charged five, ten percent.

So I cash them and like, I don't under. Like what the checks? Good, right? Like my is like, yeah, what are you trying to verify himself, anyone? He hold on and leaves again.

And I remember my cell phone ring, and I pick up the phone is, Becky, what are you doing? What's taking so long that guys being a jerk? You don't want him the money or she's my guy.

Get other bank. Get other bank. And when I can get another bank, the guys got my ID.

He's got my credit card, my ID in the check for twenty and thousand. He's going to call the police jump up and around and I could don't call me again. I'll let you know it'll be fine.

Hang at the phone SHE calls back the same conversation the and of them he comes back out he goes um he said, um I said he so what what's taken so long and he goes, we're trying to get in touch with with michin a hand to verify the check that sound good for me right? Right, right. Okay okay.

And he walks away, the phone rings. Becky, what's going on on go? He's trying to get hold.

Michael SHE, oh my god, oh my god. And oh my g, oh my god. I remember think that I I shouldn't let her the keys. Here's a good chance I run out this place and he does see down there.

But by the way, when you're sitting that you're who? Scott?

You Scott, i'm Scott. Cog, no. And the other guy, mi, they're saying they trying to get in touch with my shahin. So then the phone rings, my phone send rings again.

I look, and it's not Becky, Becky so I pick up the phone, I go, hello and he says, hi, this is kim. Is that from suntrust bank? Is this Michael sha hand? So i'm like, yes, IT is Michaela hand and he says, there's a guy here, he trying to cash a check.

It's very large. Could you verify the P. E? And I go sure. It's got cog.

No, he said, I said, I believe the amount, twenty nine thousand dollars. Yes, that's right. Thank you very much.

I appreciated. I OK. And by the way, how you get my number is my song number. She's like, i'm sorry, we called the title company and the title company gave us your phone number. Well, I close those loans as myself. That's why if they look in any other way I went, they could have gotten touch with the real Michael shining. So was like, okay, hang up the phone.

You're sitting. You answered the phone from the bank while sitting in the bank. Scott pretending to be my.

so I right. So I just ify the check myself as matter.

pretend to be Scott as pretend to be my right.

yeah. So I wait there, terrified. Still they come out about two minutes later, the manager comes out plus a woman. I'm assuming maybe that was him. He never said anything and he he walked out, he says, and and he counts out the money twice, twenty thousand, twenty one thousand.

And I stand up and I am just like, I do not like shoving the money in my pockets like i'm trying to get out so quick and go, hey, cool like i'm seeing this whole things I you know feels bad and i'm get up and i'm so starting to walk out the bank and goes he he said, excuse me, mr. Cog, now and I said, yes, sir, a toronto goes, I like you, like you to know that I feel very apprehensive about this transaction. And I go, really, what is that exactly? Because I I can't put my finger on and I will come dia.

And I turned around. I just bolt right out of there and keep my a week or later the secret service shows up. Did you catch a check for twenty nine thousand dollars? So um was so funny like that was one of the last checks we cash ended up four hundred thousand.

Was their connection the guy.

no presentation. So the f eyes looking for me, a kind of in tampa. yeah.

And they've put out of a future of warm for me, which is how the U. S. Marshals got involved.

So U. S. Marshals track down future, yes.

federal future. They track down with .

everybodies after you ear in .

every list, right? I'm on the fbs most one list at that point. The secret service got involved once I leave atlanta.

So when back and I pack up our bags and we leave atlanta, the secret service got involved because of identity theft. Um banking. I didn't said that the sea service doesn't just do counter fitting and protect president. They also protect the financial infrastructure of the united states. And they especially have jurisdiction when identity theft is involved.

So identity theft plus being from there.

that's they they move up. That's their territory.

So Marshals are just the U. S.

Marshals, just few if they .

don't do anything of work, okay.

but they're all of working together ah like the us. Mars, an ARM of all of the various law enforcement agencies, federal agencies, not the states. The states have their own fugitive task force.

They're fugitive. So when you leave at lana basic.

everybody's after you everybodys after me.

Did you know this at that time?

Or did you a Better sense IT or no? I mean, now you know world every day, you're looking you're looking your name of every day. Like i'm not because i'm just trying to get a bunch of money and just blend in right things not as interconnected at that time as they are now, but they're starting to get interconnected. But of course, I have no idea how much I barely ago on the internet for anything, you know, dating internet know i'd never been on facebook at this point on facebook is even, is even out yet. This is two thousand .

and six still. Are you trying to stay low?

Yeah, I I am. I'm not a flashy person like i'm not driving, you know got to go out and buy A A red lamborghini. You know i'm driving i'm driving forty, fifty thousand dollars ars, you know i've had some sports cars, seventy, eighty know maybe that's one hundred and fifty thousand or sports car now, but it's still not flashy.

It's not like it's bright red or yellow and these are it's always something, you know nondescript and and i'm living in areas that these cars are everywhere, you know, I go to that so I end up going to charlet t north CarOlina. We rent an apartment. We decided to run a scam uh in in um south care oline, so I go to colombia south care oline.

And in between this period of time we go to loss vegas and I when we got a loss we got a lost beggars to drop off a bunch of money to a bakkies son's father who's take care for son who drop off some money. There we go, we start and and what we're there is like, hey, there's homeless people here. So we you know, usually I don't feel bad telling me make me feel bad.

I'm so my judgment is showing, no, but you have to be collecting identities, I guess, to be mostly .

creating unit. So so I I got my survey forms so I go and you know what, we we go out and were taking on taking service and I end up going up to this guy who was like two or three guys that are standing on like a bencher.

T on next time I see them and I walk up and one guy get up, comes over like what you and I went, i'm taking surveys for the salvation army to determine where replace our next homeless facility and the guy is on, not interested, said, I said, he pays twenty box cash right now. It'll take a five minutes and they like you twenty cash right now, like, show the cash, they go OK, yeah, yeah. What do you need?

Name, data, birth, current number so when I get to um criminal record the guide he says criminal he said, yeah i've been arrested because i've been arrested like three four times for he said for a prostitution he said um but they're like mismanage and I went okay and was like OK prostitution to me women get charged with prostitution you know men get brought charged with soila I went prostitution and he goes and he went he said yeah yeah he said I offered to blow an undercover cop for twenty box he said like that I thought you were coming out there able and I was like I was like, no other I said, okay and he's yeah he said, you know he goes, he goes I mean, he said, I mean, a girls got to do what a girls got to do. You know is any mate some commanders I like OK, so I jumped down the rest of IT. We're good.

I give twenty box. I get my car. I leave.

Um we get back to north CarOlina. A I order all of his documents. His name was gary Sullivan.

I then go to south CarOlina. When I go to south CarOlina, I get a real state agent. We drive around for a day.

We look at like five or six houses. I put five contry five hour owner financing contracts on five different houses. So I get he writes up five contracts, all of them on ARM asking for owner financing.

I'll put down ten percent. I want to to find anything. Two other end up coming back and saying, yes, we'll do IT. I have two closings.

One of the a house, this works like two hundred and twenty five thousand put down twenty five grand, another ones hundred and ten thousand, and I put down seven thousand. So I buy these two houses. I then satisfy the loans to on both the houses.

Everything seems like it's going OK, although becka alona tech at this point, she's she's had so much you won't take her medication. She's had so many outbursts that and and we've had by this time we've had plastic surgery, like she's gotten plastic surgery, she's gotten a boob job, she's gotten lib section, I mean, all kinds of stuff. So look quick.

different, like a parents changes .

are senner Better looking, you know, just tied everything up, I guess. You know, he was in her. She'd had a, she'd had a kid, and he was thirty, thirty three, thirty four.

I don't know how shot, twenty, thirty two, thirty, roughly my age. So yeah, I thought he looked at SHE lost like fifteen pounds like he was not to the surgery. But just in general, we're not we're just working out.

We're going on mount in climbing. We're now riding bikes. We're doing you know this fraud is not a full time jobs.

So you know we have plenty of time. So we're we're gift and off and but she's also alona tic. She's getting the cops called.

She's out able to go out and she's able to stay stone twenty four hours a day. She's she's going out with friends drinking. I never leave the house.

You know, even to this day, I really barely I leave the house. I am very much a homebody kind of person. So like the idea that i'm able to make my living doing youtube and i'd never have to leave my house.

I love that I don't ever go any works out for the gym back home at IT. So what happens is, uh, i've actually moved her out of the my apartment like an apartment downtown thirty story building, actually move her into another apartment. She's that much olympic.

We came him in the same place multiple times. I've tried to leave her. She's called me up and begged me to come back.

horrible. So I end up by a couple of houses in colombia, south korea. Lina, I satisfied the loans on the houses.

I've got an I D, not a driver's license, but an I D in the name of glee solving. And I refinance, I refinance those houses because, keep mind, there was owner financing, but they also add mortgage. So there's something called the wrap around mortgage.

So these guys to rap around mortgage. So let's say you buy a house for two hundred thousand, two hundred fifty thousand dollars and the bank lds, you two hundred thousand and the new owner finance the house to me. So we do I give you fifty grand down.

But i'm i'm not able to get alone from the bank to pay off your mortgage or what we do is you do a rap ground mortgage, so i'll pay you your mortgage and you pay the bank. So there is a second mortgage on the property, but it's called the rapid. It's a rap. It's rap around .

your first legal yeah .

so I went lie you so so there's these have rap round orders. So you sorry, I you good at IT, so I go, I satisfy the loans, the owner finance loans, the rapper on mortgage, and I I satisfy the loans, the original loans that these people took out on their own mortgage. One of them, by the way, I said, you know, you have to sign as the presidents of the bank, right? yeah.

So I sign IT at sea mont gummer y. Burns, which is the aging tycoon in the the guy that owns a power plant in the simpson T. V.

show. So I signed that. I notice ze IT, which I thought was cute. I actually wanted design all of them cartoon characters.

And Becky was screaming her head off and wouldn't let me do IT right, like I wanted to do all the symptoms, right? But he wouldn't me do IT screaming and hollering. So I ended up, who knows, to see my great brands.

So I sign IT notice zed IT. All those are satisfied. I then go to the multiple big banks and I refinance start refinancing all these uh these properties multiple times.

So i'm applying for these loans and i'm getting the loans and i'm closing. So i've got like five or six loans on this one house houses like two hundred and twenty five thousand, I think like two thirty whatever. I, I, I borrow like four five loans on that house.

So I bore like one hundred ninety thousand dollars, like five times. So i've got like eight hundred thousand dollars. And then I borrow another three or four hundred thousand on the other house, the one, the smaller one, right?

So it's up being like one point three million dollars is actually like one point five million IT was more. But what happened with that was, so keep my night. You can only open up so many bank accounts in your name.

You go to bank of america, you'll open one, then sun trust, dell open one. They're going to they might even ask you, did you did you open another bank account today? Because every time you do IT, there's an inquiry into something called cheat systems um or acu check.

And so then they go so then by the time you go to the third bank, they'll say, listen sometimes not right. You ve got multiple inquiries. You know if you go to whatever mercy l bank there might be, they might go OK are going to open one.

They're not need an explanation, but you're not met. You're not opening more than three by the third one. There really absolutely not something wrong.

So you know, i've got multiple identities, but I can only open up so many banks. The other problem is that these these checks they'll only give you so much money on a review. Usually after one hundred thousand, they only want to let you walk away with less than one hundred thousand dollars.

So one of the things I did was I I would typically record another mortgage and have them pay that mortgage of. So I had to open I opened a corporation to do that. So I could then turn around and go open corporate bank accounts because now it's not going off. My information is going off the corporation. So I can open up multiple corporate bank accounts.

These corporations of fake?

real? No, no. I went to a real corporate bank, to corporate tourney and had him open in my game, whatever game like, fifty hundred dollars, two thousand dollars.

And I opened up a corporation for me, gary Sullivan, yeah. And I then turned around, and I went open a multiple bank account. And in that corporation name.

how? How are you keep in track of all this? Because I don't. So I your head.

or do you have good? No, no, I have. Every single identity has its own file with with a plastic inlays sleeves .

for their passports.

You am going .

exactly .

the car for a minute. You put IT down. You're walk in. Well, what happens is you want to, like one point five million, and i'm pulling money, other bank.

And then one day I get a phone call on gary Sullivan, cell phone. The guy is a lawyer. They call up is the team lawyer with washing him mutual? We have an issue. I said, what's that? He says we got a phone call from the title company.

One of the title company is that I was attempting to refinance a point, the piece property with noticed that I they'd been sent they've been sent a document that show that I had purchased the property and I said I purchased the cash and I the documents that I purchased the cash and they got that and there was actually a mortgages on the property. And so sometimes they connected IT and they called washington mutual and they said, look, as an issue, there's a frag. We have a fragile al.

Document here. And he was like, he said, so we went, we looked and IT turns out that we pulled public records and there is a mortgage in front of us, several mortgages in front of us. So there's like three or four mortgage in front of me, washington mutual, you of us.

And IT wasn't that much IT was like a hundred hundred, like a hundred brand, right? Like twenty five or hundred and I said, ah okay and he said, so there's an issue here. You got a few mortgages in front of us and we're supposed be a first mortgage and we I suppose be two mortgage behind or three and I was like, okay, sounds like sounds like an air, not a big deal.

Um have you contacted the enforcement? Said, no, I haven't. I was hoping we rectify this some other ways that you know what I think we can.

I'm going to all have my lawyer call you back. I'm going to go to his place right now. Give me about two hours.

No problem. I mean, run, jump in my car. Head toward salk.

Are lina call my corporate lawyer. Tell him, look, I need to talk to you. Here's what's going on.

I explain IT to, he doesn't really understand. He says, um, this sounds pretty complicated. I have a my bit my wall partner is a criminal defense attorney.

I'm going to have i'm going to set a meeting right now with all of us OK. I get there forty five minutes and later I walk on the door. I sit down.

He says, what happened? I said, they said, you know, gary, this this is some sound, right? What happened?

I said, okay, to listen both this house, I bought a cash. I didn't refinances. I didn't buy a cash, but I tell them I bought IT cash. I refined like four, five times with him there to each other and they were like, how was that even possible as I well, I want a different title company explain how I do.

I said, washington mutual just found out that they're like second position or third position and or or I said, but they're probably they may be in fourth position. You know they made these things in so you never know and he was like, oh my god is like that um what you want to do I said, I want you to contact them and agree for them to not contact the authorities. Provided we pay, I pay them off here.

Do you have the money? I said, I do have the money and go get the money right now. He calls the lawyer that this is backin faxes, right? So they fact some documents back and forth they make. They do a couple emails back and forth and they have a conversation. I remember the lawyer started arguing because he wanted to charge me like yellow spread and fees and stuff.

And I was like, I was like, do you think about like how pay? So IT ends up being a little over one hundred thousand and I like that is so he's like, okay and so he says, okay, that sounds good. And so he said, okay, all you have to do is go get the check and he said, bring IT to a washington mutual branch.

Tell them to cause that i'm not going in a washington mutual branch. I'll bring you the checks hehe, he calls him back. He's not doing that and OK now i'll bring IT here.

You guys take her, say, no problem. Okay, hang up the phone and he turns me, says, okay, what? We have a problem. He said, we still have the problem of these other mortgage and I want right and he said, um and he goes, okay, well, I said they don't know anything.

He said, I know, but gary he said, what if they find out? I said they find out that there, like a second, third, fourth place is like, right? I said, I leave town, anyone? They said they both laughed.

Gary, you can just leave down. They have, they have a copy of your driver's license, they have your social security number, they have your verification and theyll find you at the F, B, I. And I go, you're summer. I'm gary.

So an wow. You tell them.

And if they listen, they looked at me and they went. And I I remember said he was, well, cross that bridges when we get to IT. I said, it's right.

My immediate problem is getting with these people and IT goes, right, right. So I go to check, bring you back of IT to them. Never called the FBI.

I can't believe you ve got away with .

the the wash. No, this.

these are really close calls.

IT seems like you, this is a close call. I have two more close calls that my hands were thinking about IT I walk in, I walk in the walk. Ova, I just opened this account two months ago.

So the new account, so whatever I would go in there, I say, hey, I need seven thousand dollars, six thousand dollars, anything? Over three thousand dollars. They had to call to get permission, right? Like a auto authorization.

So she's like, okay, I got to go call. I said, no problem. So SHE the girl walks in the back. I'm still waiting all some. A massive person reaches over my hand and grab my wrist, and somebody grab from the other one, and they pull my hands behind my back. These are two of possibly the largest law enforcement officers i've never seen in my entire life and they are massive and they they hang off me and they say, your um uh mr. Sullivan, you are being detained, we're taking in to custody and you putting you we're holding you until I detect to .

get here who these guys is. Marshals, the cops.

So what these are, share, step, share deputies, you. And as they walk in, as they walk in the back, they all me just salan. They sit me down.

And by now, I know the secret service are looking for me. They're calling me, but they we're calling us a john and gender. But now they figured out who we were.

And so now i'm on the secret services. Most wanted that. I'm not like number one at that, right? Like I probably was.

But I we just found out I was on like on that list, so it's getting bad. So they sit me down and i'm waiting. I remember thinking that the FBI was coming.

No, I don't know. At that point, I could not tell you the difference between everybody. And then five minutes go by, and you and they gone.

What is going on? You guys have any idea was gether like, we don't know which just grunts, we just do overtop. So suddenly the sky walks and is probably in his early thirties. Maybe he walks in Grace suit. I think he looks like his F I.

He says, I am a detective with the, I want, say, richlin colony, you know, whatever search department, our police department, whatever I was like, okay and he says, yeah, I listen, we've got an issue while kova walcote a wants, they want to to arrest you he said, they they're saying that you've got three mortgage on on your house and I go, is that illegal? And he looked at, many went, you know, to be honest, I don't know. I distinctively remember thinking i'm walking out here.

All I have to do is convince this guy and done anything wrong. He's always said he doesn't know. So he gets on the phone with the head of wow ous fraud department and he's telling saying this guy is running what's called a shot gunning game, which is a little right.

And so what is where you you close on so many loan simultaneously? They can't catch IT anyway. They they start going back and forth and he's on the phone is like, why did you close three loans? And I said, I, you know, why are you pull what I said? I is not illegal.

I have a first mortgage, a second mortgage and and a homework, what line of credit as perfectly legal and he goes, and you can hear the guy yet not. There are all first mortgage. And I said, I read every one of those documents.

Not one of them said they were first mortgage and they don't first mortgage, don't say their first mortgages is the placement of the mortgage placement of the lean that determines is the first, second or third. So it's possible that I wouldn't have known is certain that I could have read those documents and not known and is like that not a screaming and I so I go, yeah, listen in and he's a while. You're taking all cash.

Why are you taking all cash? I said, I mean, I don't know this sounds. I I don't know this might be illegal.

I said, I don't know. I said, I mean, I work for for a or for a labor company, labor on demand. I pull up my business card you can call.

So i'm like I work for labor on demand and I said we hire a lot of guys like they don't have banking out, so the company pays them. And then usually i'll pull out money and I cash or checks because they get charged like ten percent of cashing companies. And I feel bad.

I know the checks are good. So I just a positive. I mean, I don't think that I but I don't I don't know if that's illegal.

That's illegal. Like if if any, I don't know. Fine, that's the decent thing to do. It's not that's fine. Like, okay.

So where so he's talking to the guy and you know what cov is? Scream hollering. He says, um he's doing that. You know he's going back and forth, back and forth. So we're going back and fourth back and i'm just derAiling everything this guy says and at one point, he says, um he's screaming he's coming fraud.

We want him arrested and he's like, I don't know what to charge him with and he's like, you know he he's saying these aren't you know how you know how did you he's like a look, how did you even do this? I will look, I didn't do this, said, I came to walk kova. I met with a loan officer.

I said, I need the first mortgage. I need to pull out like a hundred thousand dollars. Want to start buying houses.

He, is that right? You on another house here to done? I I said I do. I said i'm we're putting a new roof on IT were going to build an addition.

We're putting in a pool on bian one right down the street from that one. I said, i'm obviously i'm pulling out money. I said, so I told me one hundred thousand dollars.

They said, that's fine. We can. They said they could only get at me one hundred thousand dollars for something about finding my guidelines, which is true.

And I and I said so then he said, I I can get you. I can send you to a friend of man who is alone and also SHE get a second. He did.

I said, then I told her he could only get me a hundred thousand or so hundred ninety thousand the other and SHE said you should get an equity line of credit if you going be doing like you know um renovating properties so he sent me to somebody. They got me an equally on a credit. I said, I said, you know what? I haven't commit a fraud.

I said, I wouldn't know how to commit fraud if you told me. I said, what sounds more reasonable? A guy that worked for labor company.

Ripped off a bunch of banks for over half a million dollars. I said over some loan officers got together and did something illegal. I said, there's a problem at the bank.

And he says, I think you've got a problem. The bank and this guy goes nuts. And while he's screaming, he needs to be arrested.

This is fraud. My loan officers have not done anything illegal. They wouldn't do that.

He says, look at his I D. His ID is fake. His I D starts with zero zero zero.

South CarOlina ina I D start with zero zero zero. This guy's in california. He has no idea. So when he says that he, he, the the detective looks, pool, looks at my I D, and he goes, listen, he said, this is a real ID. I ran this guy through in cic.

He said, this is gary solvin and I and I looked, and I go now i'm not gary Sullivan, come on. But what do we doing here? And because I know gary, I know and he says, i'm gonna take him downtown.

I'm going to talk to mile whenever lootenant who ever caped in, and i'm going to fill out a police report and i'll let you know any hangs up. I get up. They've taken the handcuff off.

I stand up as we're walking out with the detectives, as we're all kind of walking out. He goes, hey, you have an ID. Do you have a driver's license and I went, I do but it's in like nava.

Ta any goes, oh, that's right. He was here from vegas and he looks at the two deputies and they all kind of grin. And I think he ran me through N, C, I, C, which means he ran a statewide criminal database, which means he thinks i've been arrested three times for prostitution and began, right? I listen, i'm humiliated. I was just like, and the grand told me and I was just like a man yeah and so one of the cops goes, uh, here, give me the I D takes the I D.

He was out check and see because I have to follow them back in my car so he goes, and by way, my car is is in the name Michael accurate so Michael accurate, he does not have a photograph of Michael accurate, right? Because you can't pull up photographs from other states so he doesn't have a photograph, but he knows that's not my car and he asked me whose car you drive and I said, oh, that's my boss. Michael ec, I boss though.

Michael acr, I saw exactly and he's like, and I was like, oh my god so i'm thinking he knows Michael echt, knows its registered in north CarOlina, knows the address, which is where I was currently living. That's a problem. So the police officer of the im sorry deputy grabs the I D, walks outside, comes back.

I have no idea if this homeless guy has a driver's license in nava. Ta, I don't know. He had nothing on him. He comes back. He does.

He have a valid license, as he has valid, and he hands IT to him or he hands me the ID and he says, he said he goes as valid and looked at me because yeah, well, he said, he says he's like, he says he's five four eleven like was like five ten, five eleven and clearly not five ten or five eleven and they all look at me and I will fell with a good pair shoes like that. They, i'll go follow us, gary. Yeah, I follow them back to police station.

Becket is calling me on the phones, screaming her head off. Now, i'd always told Becky, if I ever get arrested immediately, go get me a lawyer. The lawyer will be able to get me out on bond because they, we'll be arrested for something stupid.

I said, it'll be something like trying to cash a check, you know, a fake check, uh, you know, use of somebody said, I won't be the all my ideas are real, so won't be for perfect. I D so my d my ID won't be in questioned. And most most, a police departments and shares at that time did not run your fingerprints through office.

So they didn't because they charge them for that. So don't they don't typically do unless your identity is in question mind wouldn't be I have a valid driver's license or a valid I D in that state. So I go back she's reaming she's like, oh my god, you don't understand.

I just checked us. I just checked the um just checked the the internet, the website. You are number one of the secret services most wanted list and I was like, I got bigger problems right now.

They just held me the bank. I'm following them right now and he was like, here on the interstate, go, go. I cannot go. The detectives in front of me, the cops are behind me their export me that, please listen, just, oh my god, run, run, I go. Look, not a nice car driver like i'm driving.

It's it's a sports car, but it's not gonna run a radio or a helicopter like i'm not that's not gonna en I know IT looks IT seems nice. I'm not that guy um so I like I can't I said like you don't understand I was in hand of thirty minutes ago. I just taught my way out of him.

I'm gonna out of this and and I said the worst that happens is i'll be arrested as gary Sullivan, you can give me a plea. You can give me a um an attorney. He can get me out and he is i'm not getting you an attack y not getting you out on bond.

You not risking everything i've got for you because he has all the money. We've got seven, eight hundred thousand dollars at this point. So oh, and by the way, she's not even in north CarOlina at this point. She's relocated to houston taxes because when this sm broke fell apart. We were gonna a move to texas, so we were already moving there.

So but by the way, just a small attention. Where do you store money in situations like this that like when you talk about eight hundred thousand, you have to keep moving accounts to make sure it's not accessible by there's about FBI. Well.

there's about six or seven hundred thousand and accounts, but keep my i'm getting that out in cash like there's no bitcoin. There's no none of that stuff exists. So my you, I I probably should have bought diamonds or bought gold or like I don't know anything, all I think of is going slowly.

Be patient. Um don't drain the account, you know, fluctuate them. Like I was writing getting cashiers checks from one account to another to the baLances were doing this.

You know they weren't just going, they were doing this. And then one day bomb, they are gone OK. So, so we got now, like, whatever we ve gotta like six or seven hundred thousand, there are still like six or seven hundred thousand in the bank.

But I am not going back. I'm done. I actually be honest with you. So what will look? I I go in, so I go into the police station.

And what first? He says, if you go in the police station, i'm done. If you get arrested, you're done.

I so, well, I Better not get arrested. I hang up the phone, cop standing behind my car. Get out.

I go in the police station. I walk in, I fill out the police report. He tells me I ve got to talk to my captain, roque ke.

Can you wait? He couldn't leave in a cubicle. Can you wait in the hallway? I can't leave you in the no problem. So I go and I wait in the hallway in the hallway or a whole wall of on the court board wanted posters black and White like and White you know car theif know rapist, murder, secret services uh um most wanted and i'm on the on my faces right i'm like holy cheese and you know everything and may told me run just just fucked in all ash right now, right now, just go you you've you looking right now now that I even thought he was there were so many, I didn't think he was going to see IT.

But everything I just had run that the problems, if you've ever been a into a police station, you're not getting out of IT. You get we're not just that, but they buz you in here. You get in the elevator, you have to punch in a code.

You have to punch in a code to get back out of the elevator. You have to punch in a code to get in the next door is like, I mean, was it's impossible like i'm never i'm going to get in the elevator so guy comes back up. The cop comes back up.

He said, hey, gary, appreciate IT. No problem. My captain said, we're good.

We're gona wait for a phone off and the no IT, the the district atterley called already they're looking into IT. I'm going to go and let you go. I go downstairs. He wash me out to my car.

He said, look to me a favorite like what we do have some serious questions at this point, like the dishes journey said there things he said, I said not with me and he said, well, just do me ferries, don't, don't leave town I said, broke. I own two houses here. Am I going anywhere? I said, i'm telling you where right now I said, what, kobe, they fucked up and is like, I believe you, I believe so.

I always said whatever is like, I hope you, I hope every right, i'm sure you're right. okay? So I get my car, I leave, I go to two more banks, pull out more money. But at one point I go into a bank and like two of the cashers, practically slam in each other trying to get to the phone. And I can tell some, I done something up so I I get my car back at one of the runs out, looks tag number, you know so I drive I on the interstate, I go, you know, Becky, of course she's, you know, i'm sorry, I I love you. I we've never done that was just scared, I understand.

I think sounds like .

and for all my god, so I go all the way back to sharley, I pack up my apartment. I drive all the way to houston with my entire apartment packed up, by the way, in a uhl like the next day, the next morning she's got people they are packing IT up movers. We packed IT up.

I drive the u hall all the way to housing takes a couple days. I unloaded into, uh some guys unload into a into a storage unit because i'm onna stay with back until I five mini apartment as we were driving around neighborhood super nice. She's living in like whatever like i'm like that twenty a floor, something of some huge rise.

Great apartment we dry buying. I A hole stop the car I I want to get out is one of those cone things where there's flyers for the house from the house. Jump down.

I get the fire and and she's like what you do and I go, I just want, I just look, look, fire. And SHE says, A, I don't want to do a game here. I want to live here.

This places is nice. I love IT here. And I went, right, I understand, I said, I said, but I have a fine on apartment and SHE is, oh, you just, i'm just so disgusting.

You can't stand and spend even a couple weeks with me. Ug s, and SHE goes just ballistic. She's screaming at the top of her lungs and I know she's onna get me call.

She's gonna get me out right. She's already told me that. So we go back to the apartment. We go upstairs. I was so scared, this this chick raw, I I was so scared.

I remember I was going up in the elevator and this girl gets on this clearly a stripper, I mean, drop dead just but wearing stripper clothes here and i'm stand like, and and soon he got on beck. He gave me that where the face and i'm like this am like staring in the corner and never look at the girl. And remember, we get off the election being IT opens when I bought off IT becking both bolts office and I I off the elevator and I remember SHE squeals.

I bet you just love to fuck that tramp and the girl. As the elevator doors are closing, he goes, hey. Thought that was money, so I go to the apartment, we we have a screaming match kind of tell what I want to split the money.

He tells me she's not going to give me split the money. Why um because he said you can go somewhere else and do this again. You'll have a million dollars in six months. You know, I have to live off this money.

Did SHE threatened you? Oh.

SHE threatened the IT. Was that funny too? Because the conversation back and forth, I remember saying not want to happen. And he goes and SHE said, I i'll give you ten thousand dollars your mind I said I said i'm tell right now you come up with some reason will take all of IT and SHE said, um when you say I said i'll take all if she's in what escape and that you hold they're going to SHE is a after going to be looking for in five minutes and I went I just remember thing wow and keep mind all of my ideas. Everything or in store unit that he has a key too like i'm like in this is over yeah I got an I D right now that says my name is Michael accurate I have driving. I got I driven to you all an yeah .

sounds like he has a lot of a negotiation leverage.

right? So we start arguing back in fourth and he says one hundred thousand dollars I give hundred thousand I said I take SHE counted out, counts out one hundred thousand later when I recounted IT wasn't even in one hundred IT was like ninety eight thousand is fine fine so um but now we ve got a more mark in two thousand five thousand six thousand is like two thousand stiff in me that's why start my money so I I take IT I end up you know I take IT I leave and as i'm leaving she's always called me before on the phone and begged and pleaded and cry, ed, I mess up please give me a chance i'm sorry i'll take my medication i'm sorry I thought was Better I thought was okay and I remember walking out I put my cell phone on the counter and just walked out, went downstairs, got the truck and drove.

And a drove when I got to lizana, I stopped the baton rouge and got A, I mean, at some point I stopped that. I got life. I think I got a room or something. At one point, I know I stopped.

So he drove without a plan.

I grow back too shit to get my car good so I can be drive I right? So I stopped the battle room at one point and got A A cell phone. You know, I like A A burner phone, like a vice, virgin mobile, a one of the fun. So I bought one. I call a few people at home, back home, call my mom um she's in tears, crying, my dads yelling in the background I call .

um which are just small change with your mom that say your anything.

stand out to use, not my dad, you know pick you know what of your help you know your mother every time someone mentioned your name your mother cries which is funny to me because like growing up, like he was never concerned about her crime, you know so I was like since when did you care you know and I just so am my dad like he's an alcoholic now he's been sobber for two years a month and a half drink, drunken bench or drinking is start drinking benge and then soler for six months and then did IT again and solbes you know just went back and before there and uh interact of uh alcohol and drug programs ah but like I said, IT worked for state farm and state farm.

He was a top selling manager and so what they would do is that they put him into a thirty day programme and and and I mean, like a but he has to stay there. And they had they were the only when they had that kind of control because they're like, you're gonna this and you gonna pass IT. We're firing you.

You know, he he made a lot of money, and he made a lot of money for state farm. And he hired, he hired and trained a ton of agents, and he had one of the top performing agencies. So he was worth a lot to them.

And but so I I end up what is up happening is i'm driving through I I get that phone that I was telling you about my call so I call talk to my mom. She's know she's crying. She's like I love you so much. Now I just want to make sure you you're safe.

I not calling a Susan barker, which I was the brokers that work for me at the time, call her and I say, hey, what's going on? How you as I go know what's gone on fbs everywhere like theyve been talking everybody, you know. And this has been it's like a year and a half at this point and she's like it's not there.

They come around every once while everybody is gone in, everybody is CoOperating. Everybody is talking, everybody is blaming you um including her and and so as we're talking, SHE said, look, I the main FBI agent on the case, he told me if I ever spoke with you to have you color and I was like, I am good so he was her name is canas and SHE SHE wants you to color. She's at least color forgot.

thanks. Maybe you just turn yourself in. Maybe maybe you can negotiate just like a couple years like because if they're not GTA catch you then then maybe turning yourself and maybe i'll help at least hear her out and I was like, okay, right? You're right and the phone I call candis SHE picked up the phone.

I go, hey, that he was, who was this? And I go, this is matt cox. And SHE was, hello, mr.

Cox, how are you and I go doing? OK, how's IT going? I undertake. You want to talk to issues. I do.

I said, what can I do for issues? You can turn yourself and I go, but that's not going to happen. I said, what else do you need? And he said, I think that you should think about turning yourself.

And I said, why? Well, what am I looking at? Just was not how IT works, where IT works as you turn yourself in and you know we take that in consideration. I said, I said that's not good.

I am not not still in of myself and I hope for the best so SHE says, um um well, let's talk about this and I said, what am I looking at so I don't really know. I I can't really, I can't tell you that and shei said, well, then we will have anything to talk about. You will wait a second.

Let me hold on. Let me call the U. S. A. turney. Maybe we can work something out so he calls us SHE. So I said, OK, i'll call you back and SHE said, will give you in your phone and i'll call you and I want I said, i'll call you. I said, I want to hang up the phone.

I'm going to turn the phone off I said if for all I know you're trying the elating this phone call right now or something you know and SHE is giving a bright she's you're not that important and I remember thinking, who do you think you are? Like, like shit. Like right? Like you're you're just some little fraudster guy running around you like you know terrace, you know I know and I almost.

I almost was like, okay, here's my number, which you probably already had but I almost like this, like, okay, i'll wait for your call and left my phone. I said, now turn off and I i'll call you back. He is right.

Whatever I hang up, I turned off the film, I turns out, I found out later, when I order of the freedom of information act SHE actually immediate called the U. S. Marshals, and they immediately called, took the phone number and track back the phone, and immediately had two Marshals from a battering or go immediately to the place where I had been.

Oh.

I listen. Yeah, I mean.

they were fast. Yes, he is. She's good too.

Not just that, I made the initial calls sitting there in where I went in both the phone IT was like a gas station. There was also like A A subway station I had ordered, like a subway. I was eating a subway, playing on my computer, program the phone and making phone calls.

So by time I talked to her and driving, I, by that point, I walked and gotten into vehicle, my vehicle, and I leave. But, you know, who knows? I don't know.

They show up three minutes that I don't know, like I have I, I just finish my food shown up, so I go. I call her back an hour too. Later he says, listen, you know, first time he wasn't, he hadn't got back with ether.

Then he did. Then he came back. He said, seven years, he'd got to turn himself in here.

So, okay, seven years that that seems like a lot. And I was like seven years and that seven years for for I was. And I kept saying that seven years for everything and SHE goes, yeah, that's for everything. I was like, that's everything.

Like everything in that happened like in atlanta, like in is some stuff that you don't know about SHE said, look was important as you turn yourself in in tampa and I was like, okay, well, i'm closer to atlanta. Why would I turn myself in in atlanta and she's like, look, you know, you don't want to do that. You don't want to do that.

Well, because that would have been the secret service. What I ve gotten credit, I walked in there, right? So, you know, and I don't know anything about rival reason how they work at that time. I do now. But so we go back and forth back, and more than I continually ask her, does that include IT Lancer everything? And at some point I realize, like I SHE is just not entering and so finally I said, listen, you keep dodging this question and SHE said, all I can speak for is tampa so if you come back to tampa and you CoOperate against everyone seven years and she's telling me, he asked me to CoOperate against my x wife and i'm like, i'm not gonna do that I said my x wife didn't do anything SHE doesn't know anything SHE didn't do anything.

She's never you know that's not what I heard and she's going on and on um and I was like, no I was like, oh wow was like so that he's just for and she's like, that's right as I we're done to no weight I can call the U. S. Return is in that lady.

I wouldn't believe you if you told me water was wet and I trust you and I hung up the phone, threw out the window, and I end up going to share. let. Drop off the uhl van, go to my I know I would really brought back to the deal, not like I vented I right back um so I I bring you back.

I go to my old department in downtown shit and I remember thinking I would be O K. I know by this point that they they knew Michael ecotec name, they had the address and sure that. So I know they buy this poison five, six days.

So I know they've tracked him, him back there. So I figured if I could get my car out on fine. So I go into the apartment complex and know it's like like this four, five, six, seven apartment.

You know, those are are parking things that stack up. So I go into this, you are not only around, but whatever, this parking garage thing. So I go and i'm I like the third floor something I look at my car and I I get my car and I remember soon as I walk, drove out of the the parking road.

I like, i'm good so I can go ahead and pull o ross, a string stop at starbucks. So I stop at starbucks. I walk in the starbucks.

I order star box. I'm standing there waiting for the bra. I look over and it's two people from the apartment complex staring. At me that's and there's the whispering and pointing and no and I remember that this is like the of the month I had paid my rent and been there. So I thought that make no sense.

Maybe do they like i'm picturing an a victim tied or a three day noticed on my door or something and i'm like, okay. And then one of them balls out the back. The woman is a guy.

Girl, the woman, what? Round out the back. He stayed staring at me.

I get my, my, my, my vivi, right? I get my little. I get my food drink.

Yeah, so I get my fu drink. I I walk out. I get in the car.

He follows me getting the car. I said everything up. I put my seat belt on. I'm okay. He's standing there staring at me.

Know, i'm thinking sudds wrong, like what's up and all and I checked to see there's no traffic. I'm good. I'm about about to leave and he starts screaming, he's right here.

He's right here. I look in the review mayor, there's two guys running towards the back of my car. I punched IT and I take off sounds dramatic, wasn't that dramatic? I'd all there was no cars and there was no cars already pulling out IT wasn't like A T J. Hooker where I jumped over the slid across the ah the hood and slight you know they didn't catch the car and hang on the back but you know I so they're running .

and I boom hit IT .

just build a coffee here things actually .

you're making a sound like you are pretty calm what you're panic .

here and was terrified yeah .

terrified so you you're under underwear. You're still Operate .

yeah I Operate like I it's funny you say that because the the secret service, when they talk to these guys, they all the people that they spoke with said the same thing over and over again. The guy was a professional. He never seemed upset.

He never seemed agitated. He always, he was never in a hurry. Yeah he you know, like, but most of the time I I wasn't because I, you know, he wasn't till the police gotten all said the federal law enforcement gotten involved that I started really getting animals.

So that point I drive, I take off, I drive about a mile down the road. Who are the two guys, by the way? I thought I was F, B, I, I, ord.

The freedom of information that when I got to prison at some point in the future, and IT IT was U. S. Marshals.

So sounds prety dramatic .

to me.

U. S.

Marshals running.

but IT was the fact.

yes, it's not like their fingers were the back of the car they're lying on, you know. But I was, yeah, if I had waited extra twenty ds, ah.

that you sider give up there. I know .

now I like to think of this. All my instinct get out. Is golf goof already in trouble? It's not like they're to be there.

They're going to add anything. Although to be honest, you know, IT only got worse because at that point, actually, at that point, I drive down the road. I stopped at a homeless facility.

I survey three guys. I'm a mild down the road, like lucky back on. I think, what were you thinking? But there were three, three homeless guys that were in their early thirties, and they were there all coco on. That's hard to find. So trust me, I ve looked spent hours before track and fine in these guys.

So that's like the the golden thing you're looking for is why guys .

in authorities, right? I was, I was man. I, so I I survey them, I drive straight in a nash will yeah get a nash fill drive through an area called the Green hills.

Well, I first like when I got to nash, well, I stay the night. And the next day I went into, i'm to say, U P A U P S store that was actually kingo's used to be, they used be called king goes. I going .

to remember kink's they had bought by X I I O S.

Okay, then I was a that. So I go in there because and you give him like fifty box or something, or twenty box or something, they give you like a hundred business cards. So I get A, I go get A A barn, a phone number, a burner phone.

I go in there, I make up, oh, I call and get a phone number from H, Q, the local H, Q. I come up with a name manufacturer funding group. I've fat two phone numbers.

I get business cards made with the name. One of the guy's name that I surveyed was um his actual name was Joseph maria Carter junior. I went by Carter, so I get business cards made of Joseph Carter.

I then drive through Green hills, took like an hour, take the card. So i'm driving through Green hills. I'm planning on going to an apartment, but i'm still I don't have an ID.

I don't anything like and how would I going to do? I'm going to place to stay like what am I doing? And I am using an an ad that the cops are looking for. So as i'm driving, trying to find this big apartment complex, there's a guy putting a sign in the front yard of like a townhouse because several tom houses and I probably as sixties, I pull in jump ala car and I said, hey, is after this for renting said, yes, IT is I said, oh okay uh yeah can I see sure I go and check IT out come back downstairs it's perfect said, listen I you know I work for company you know manufacturer funding group bomb ham saying I said i've been in in uh europe for the last I forget what I said I said england I some little town outside of london and know what her texturally london for the past five years I really having any credit but I said I can put down a double the security deposit, you know, whatever you need. Here's my business card he looked at me and he looked at my car and he goes, you look like an honest Young man he said, I think the first months rent and and deposit and he said, now go get a leash right now and I said, okay and I saw, okay, fill out at least right then game in the keys like, I like very trusting in in that town.

Oh, yes, but there must be not something about you. You I mean.

I don't got car. I know if you're going to be a lot of comments to say White privilege, but I think the .

carma has something to do with IT.

Um well, I so he gave I appreciate that so he gave me the keys listen, I ordered all of all of Joseph Carters vital information right like all of us, the first to typical social current card, everything that night from like a king goes or so far, forget where, but from some one of these places I went online, you could go online back then, right? Like there was a wifi everywhere. So I ordered this stuff and shows up a couple days later.

I take that information, I go and I get a driver's license right about within light, seven, eight days, i've got a driver's license in his name. I get in that car, Michael echo's car. I drive IT all the way back to national.

I leave in long term parking, get on a plane, fly back to ash bill, go and buy myself a brand new car brand. A was a couple years old, but from my car, max, when IT, within two weeks, I am completely one hundred percent set up. I started dating for three, four months that gets really boring .

and and specially .

is national. So I started dating the much of chicks. And then I end up me in this .

one girl the way you lonely here because you're on .

the run as being an on tie right now. Being on the run was the best part of my life, really. Everybody know all these guys say he was horrible.

And I was, I was so concerned and looking over my shoulder. And I wasn't. I wasn't.

Keep mind, i've gotten, i've gotten five or six traffic tickets while on the run. I went to traffic school as someone else. Like so many traffic tickets in his name, I went to traffic school as him. Like if I got a pulled over.

like i'm that concerned your conference .

and i'm i'm driving, driving a vehicle in the name of the driver's license that I have that was issued by that state full cover insurance. I'm not a thing. I'm not driving around a stolen car with a broken tail light in the body, in the trunk. Like i'm covered. Like i'm not concerned about the local cops.

Plus you're going to starbuck sipping your cough and driving away from U. S.

March that you could .

start believing that is impossible to catch you.

That is exactly what IT is every time. I just keep getting more, more involved, more more cocky, arrogant, like and i'm gonna IT i'm too good, you know, which is great to the catch you. And so I I meet a girl named AManda gardener.

Well, what I end up doing is keep my everything out one hundred thousand and or so. So I go, and I started buying houses in the area, in this area called J. C.

napper. Next is just closed to downtown. And I buy these houses. And I start, recall, I buy for like sixty, seventy thousand.

And I record the sales at two ten, one nine, one two, two or five. That's really same thing. And I refinance the house.

I start pulling out money. I meet this girl, AManda gardener, SHE. We headed off within a few months.

She's moved in. We move into a house in that area. I renovate a house. We move in there.

I borrow three and a half million dollars, and i'm buying houses now, buying houses recording the value. I start all over, you know, I borrow like one over three and half million dogs. I mean, AManda, we move in together. We're .

that he knew .

was that it's alright. I have no photographs. Everything I own is brand new. She's like, you know, there's nothing in this house that's more than four months old. So six months old, you have no photographs, you have no internet presence, you have no, you know, it's every stick of clothing is brand new. You don't have .

all pairs of genes. You tell their stories about the past .

of fabrica. Tis the fabricates version that I wed. I own a mortgage company.

My typical story was like, I won a mortgage company and I got bought out by household bank. Start doing very well. I got bought out by household bank.

I have a no non compete laws I got no, that was like a half a million dollars after paying off all my bills uh and just decided to kind of travel around the the U S. And now here and I start renovating houses but that, you know you don't call home, nobody calls you, your family doesn't call you. You tell stories about your mom, your dad, your brother, your sister, friends, I don't know, any of these friends never see in these friends.

They never call you. They never, you know, it's just like, it's like ash. So at some point, i'd basically just set to a look. I'm looking at one point I had have a chat cut.

I refinances the house right and I had, like, I want to say, i'm going to say something like that might have been thirty thousand, but let's say twenty thousand and eight, twenty thousand jack, cut to AManda garner, because you have to have these checks. You can't haven't cut to me so I would say, hey, there's a second mortgage on there and I provide a second mortgage or I provide you, I provide of things that I knew. I I need names of people to cut these things too.

So I had a check cut for whatever. So remember what dinner one night this is before he really knows who I am and I said, hey, I said, h and he was, oh, did you have refined SHE? Is how that thing you are refining. Oh, thank god you said that. I said I need to deposit this, get IT check for twenty thousand.

She's like, um I can, I can, I can go tomorrow and how I can deposit IT I and I might know I I might deposit so I can get up as soon as IT cleared your cash check um I was like just deposit keep IT in your bank it's fine so she's like what is going on, you know and if so, we have this conversation and I tell her, look, people are looking for me who law enforcement? Which ones? All of them you know, she's like that doesn't even work for what I go.

Mostly bank fraud and she's like, well, how are they not finding you? I mean, everybody you know, people know you like, you know your general contractor, which I met four months before, this guy, six months before, two months before. You know she's like, so, so, so, so, so and i'm like, right, right well, I said, well, she's like, I mean, we've got your name.

They've got to be a well, that's identity theft and SHE was like, what you may say, well, my name's not know my name's not is not jokes, Carter, and what is your? What is your name? I do you know, if you don't need, don't even worry about IT.

This is what's happening. This is where I, and this has been months in a red relationship. I know this is also, say, maybe a month or two in, but know he was just too inquisitive.

And oh, I know what I was. He found like forty thousand dollars in cash in my freezer. One night that was another thing that happened.

He went to get a postcard and SHE opened up the the flip to get a pop co. And he opened the wrong one. And there was all cash. And SHE was like, like, you know, I had the other day, you know, in this conversation, you know, the other day I opened up the box tico box in their cat and i'm like, so I kind of explain IT, but I had a feeling she's not going to she's gna be OK with this. You know.

he was was O I mean, to just a fast conversation.

IT was a great conversation .

because because often times in relationships you learn about each other and you find out new things. And here you find zy. Yeah, it's A. The name you're using is not your real name and the city could service the FBI and everybody else are looking for you yeah and you're like, to be honest, you're not a violent criminal so sad.

you know you know but he didn't know my name like he was like SHE and I was told her. I said, look, if you start digging, if you find out my name, like i'll leave like there are certain things that catch you staying in contact with people that you know that's how you get caught, you know going back to see people, that's how you get caught you know um telling people who you are, that's how you get caught and I was like, so i'm josel Carter.

Everything's fine and he was like, okay, you keep mind to this girl, do you oh, your cars broken or your cars not doing well? Take IT and trade and will go into you in the car, go into, you know, an infinity, you know, F, X or whatever, you know, fifty five thousand and fifty thousand or vehicle. She's driving the equivalent of A A beat up old nova.

You know I mean, it's you want to go on vacation and will go on vacation. You want to do this. You want to do that. So you know we're buying houses. I we're renovating houses where we're building brand new houses.

We're buying lots like she's like in the middle of this like holy cheese s there are hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank and our bank account, her bank account, I open up a corporation in her name. She's opening a bank account she's got with the websites. It's a lot.

And while this is happening, we start seeing A A A friend of her. So this other world comes in the picture, her named china and um china is um. So my last me and so is like a .

sexual thing yeah so actual relationship .

no more like she's coming over a couple times a week o so we've got A A time going on and I put this so while this is happening, I I end up coming out like several magazine. So i'm thinking this whole things dying down, but it's not dying down because now I just got caught in handcuff in a bank, walked out of the police station, out ran Marshals, although then that part the martial thing never was, never in the papers but um the getting caught and hank off in the bank when that hit the papers that's everywhere about this huge you know suddenly chicago tributes running up series the fugitives um i'm in bloomberg business week they run and articles our article called you know arks in the housing pool then you've got a fortune magazine comes out with the thing because by now, guess what deck's been caught oh.

Becky h. Beck and housing whatever any .

houston got caught .

and the SHE but ganger .

brow like the way he hears the thing there you go. No, I know. He told me SHE did.

Oh, no. It's fine.

He do the right thing. So here's what's funny about SHE.

what SHE is said, loyalties, everything in this world.

I just took off. I just took off still I hour and left with with, listen with, like six, like five or six hundred thousand dollars which I left with .

not it's not all about money, Matthew. It's also about just like, you know, right or die. There's a mean to that. I'm sorry again. So he told he said everything well.

here's when I say ganger when he gets caught yeah um they come and she's in the middle of beauty school. She's paid for beauty school. She's going through beauty school. She's going to look like a salon.

So she's in there are cutting hair in a class you know on a man again that all sun, like five or six secret service agent come in, said everybody, drop the ground. You they grab our they handcuff er, they bring her and the whole time now at that point, SHE was rebeca SHE was but her name was Rebecca hick. SHE went by becca.

So she's Rebecca which you know she's got to taxi drivers license the whole thing and they're screaming at her and they they put in the car and they're driving the whole way to the secret service had told me forty five minutes she's telling us you're loosen your job, bro, you're lose IT. I mean, he goes he's like, I couldn't believe that like, we have work pictures ever. Well, like, this is you she's like, that's not me. Are you insane? Look at that shabby little thing .

would not .

budged till they actually put her hand on the scanner and he was OK. I'm back a hok. What do you need? They're like wears that cock shows. I have no idea that fucker left me like a year ago.

So so but he contributed to the story to the legend has already growing.

Oh oh, because he was interviewed, fortune magazine and IT was horrendous. The article is horrendous. He was abusive.

He, he is a done one that that forced me to fall in love with him, commit mortgage fraud, and then took all the money and left, by the way, they found like forty or fifty grand on her and maybe another thirty or forty in her bank account and no other money yeah where is the other money? Um so anyway and he was, by the way, he got caught. SHE was in communication with her family.

IT was so she's talking to her mom. I cut out and her mother through multiple conversations. One conversation being, mom, mom doing fine.

I can't tell where I am, you know exactly, but I am infused in taxes. I'm fine. Next one, six months later, I enrolled in beauty school, houston, texas. Beauty school.

How many other you in your mom by polar? I just want to leave my daughter yeah I want to call the secret service yes, i'm doing the right thing. Yeah and and honestly, he is doing the right thing. So um so you .

get more and more famous actually .

right so I got .

in three up happening is .

we end up going on you know in listen a man and I we've gone on we've gone to greece, italy um croatia um where where we've on we go on a multiple just multiple trips and when we just gotten back from like a ten day cruise of the greek eyes and there's we get home and a AManda goes online and there's a blog about date line about their one of their new specials called the thief of hearts and that's me currently on the fief of hearts and i'm apparently going around and i'm and is based on you know a rebeca Becky story that i'm wowing women to commit fraud, stealing all the money and then leaving them to hold the back.

Well, they interviewed her. They're interviewing multiple people, multiple in my in my case they're put together this they're putting together in episode can not be released in few in in a month. So so i'm terrified I have at this point of been on the one three years and i'm like there's lots of things I could care less about fortune.

I don't knowing that there is fortune. Bloomberg, come on. I hang out with. I'm hanging out with contractors and labors, and you know, i'm not hanging out with these guys.

So you know local news, who cares? You know even even local news channels, you know, I don't care. But date line, there weren't four hundred channels back then, you know.

So date line comes out even if you don't see at the first time they're onna rerun in three months or six months in five year, ten years from now, they might run IT again. My face is gonna on IT, so I could be perfectly fine five years from now. And one day I the breasts that I go to every every other day that looks at deadline goes, oh my god, that's mr.

Johnson. And that's mr. Tom, mr. whatever. So the point is, is that I was like, I got to go. I can't stay here. I got to get out the country.

So I was gonna to um well, we really start doing research and AManda ended up saying australia australia at the time I don't know how IT is now at the time. If you went to australia with like like a hundred thousand dollars and a business plan, you could become a permanent resident alien. You, you, you can't vote, but you can buy property, you can open a business, but you can get a job.

And they didn't require a fingerprints. So there's no criminal background check. Now if you want to to be a citizen, you have to get an FBI criminal background jet.

Like, I not good. So I was like, wow, I can go there and start a business. And i'm anna.

Start show up with a couple million. So what we do is we start refining ing houses. We're short pulling out money as quick as we can.

I asked you guys, labors guys, that I work with my general contractor, my real state age. And hey, can you catch you check for six grain. Can you cut? Nobody says, know everything.

No problem. No problem. Few guys like if you give percent of percent.

So that's happening. We're pulling out cash. One day. AManda gives tiny a bunch of checks and ask her to cash.

That Sparked a conversation that, like what IT was happened, SHE confides. And by this point, by the way, a man who knows who I am. So by this point, she's actually came across the letter that I wrote to my parents when I left tampa.

So she's figured out who I am. SHE tells trainer his name's macos dates lines coming out. We're going. We're leaving.

We got to get budget cash and train to goes OK all cash checks when SHE doesn't stead if he calls the secret service. They watched my house for three days. I come home one day.

They pulled the car up and they rust me. So no, a little bit longer than that. But that's short, just a short version of me getting arrested. And you probably the simple.

because you gotten away with much more complex situations.

So women, man.

is women joke. They also are the thing that make life worthwhile.

Listen, god bless. String SHE did the right thing honestly based.

You go back to the right thing.

But I mean, based on what he saw, based on what the secret service told her and what in the articles that she's reading, i'm a bad guy and i'm a bad guy in general, right? I don't do their loyalty. I don't think so.

Um i'm reaping people off. She's thinking that her friend is in danger. You know, the FBI saying, I have a weapon.

He's, he's dangerous. He's got a weapon. You know, we really believe his armed and dangerous. When I was in florida, I had to conceal weapons permit, but I gotten rid of both my guns when I was placed on probation. I've never had one sense, i've never touch a gn sense.

But they use that to say, you know, they said he had council up, okay well then he aren't in dangerous like there's little things and think they are telling her, read this article, lucky forces girls to fall in love with them and he he does what she's going to do, your friend. So SHE negotiated also, I think SHE, you got ten thousand. I think I was just embarrassing. I am ashamed that SHE SHE got ten thousand .

dollars and said everything .

you and told them, this is where he is, his damage. Joseph Carter, you know, you know, this is where is? They watch IT. They grab me, they rest me. They bring me downtown.

You know what? What did you feel like when you got?

And I feel good, but was bad, is a bad day, a bad day? First of all, cassino royal was coming out on friday. IT was the first Daniel crag, as James pon is in the whole week, i've been telling AManda, i'm to go see casino royal go.

Okay, on saturday we're going to go to the festival. That's fine. But on friday, Christine and she's like, right, casino royal and she's okay. By the way, on thursday, I thought we could go to dinner. That's fine.

But on friday, yal, and when they put the hand cos on you, the first thing I thought of to see, not gonna, I thought about about five, six years later, and when on the institutions movie channel IT was nice. Sounds the same but um yeah so I they they bring me to nature, then they transport me to all over the place I go on, you know can air they fly me OK homa. They fly me to atlanta.

Then I get go to atlanta, placed in the U. S. Marshals. Hold over. I get a signed at a torney go in front of the judge pleaded not guilty, meet with my journey. You always pleaded not guilty.

You know, whenever you these people can you believe that he plead not guilty as the first thing you didn't nobody walks in plead guilty. He pleaded not guilty while you kind of figure out what you're going to do. But I pleaded not guilty. There's no bond.

Obviously i've got they caught me when they caught me, I had four, five passports, so that's no good um they charged me with a you um bank for dd conspiracy, committing fraud, wire fraud, male fraud um passport fraud, conspiracy are what aggravated identify money laundry use of a fraudulent passport. Um you know and there's like this there's like you know thirty counts of this, twenty counts of this, twenty one of that matters like even if you just took the dropped all the counts to one count, stack them. It's like hundred fifty years, everything everything that you're looking hundred fifty lawyers, they are like you not looking at you look at IT fifty four years.

what? No matter, no matter so yes so my lawyer comes in and seize me one day you are like our first meeting and I see says, you know, i'm Milly mailly done and SHE says, listen, i've looked at everything for first they say you're responsible for it's like twenty five or twenty or thirty twenty five or twenty six million dollars in loss and I like that i've never not true that's and I like, you know not even I said not even potential. There is just no way.

I is no way and then they come back SHE comes back and he says what they're saying, nineteen million now I have possible tainting I I didn't know. So when the FBI thing, like forty million there in eleven point five in in tmp a plus forty million for the mortgage company. So that is not being like plus what I stall on the run IT is not be like fifty five million, but SHE gets them to drop like the forty like this brokers as this, that's that drop in there like I was so done IT doesn't matter, they drop that.

So IT ends up IT ends up me like fifteen million and then it's down to what is the o they said nine point five and I got IT down like six million. So you know which i'm good for so um what is up happening is they've charged me with all these things and and she's like, okay you know you're like out you can you play and you can go with the sentence and guidelines which is gonna be like she's like amit depends SHE said that might be whatever fifty four years he is but if they run them, you know concurrent or consecutive everything in which they do and SHE said most likely IT ends up being like thirty years you know let's like it's not good. It's not good.

So we kind of go back and forth, back and forth and figure out try and figure out where i'm what i'm looking at. Now as we go through the whole thing, we end up SHE ends up with SHE ends up saying SHE knocks off a bunch of stuff that they're saying I did you know, at enhancements, do you have a base level in a base level of let's a level eight? You know, that should be that should be maybe a few years.

But then they start adding on enhancements. You did he what did what he do was sophisticated? Yes, okay, three levels for sophisticated means where there are more than how many victims were there more than fifty victims?

Yes, okay, that six more levels. okay. Did he change the jurisdiction to evy detection?

Yes, that's four more levels. okay. Did he they start adding bomb, bomb.

And when you start adding up all those levels plus your criminal history, and I have a big crime history, because I was already on federal problem and I committed a new crime on federal probation. So that was another and enhancement and this this case. So i'm like a category I category two or three.

So they come back in their thing. twenty. Well, they don't come back right away, but he ends up saying you're probably looking at fourteen years.

Okay, that's reasonable. That's reasonable. And so SHE saying, so we get the when we get the P, S, I back, we have visually get what's called a percentage report.

There are saying twenty six years. They really said thirty two years. And I argued and we got IT down to twenty six years and four months as well.

That is it's three hundred and sixteen months. That's what they do in months. Doesn't think that much. SHE say months, yes. So SHE says to me, miles down with me, SHE says, listen, you eco Operate and I was like OK and he said, because that you're you you're guilty, you're extremely guilty.

He is like, you can go to trial and he said, so you need to CoOperate as like, what do I get if a CoOperate is the way that works as you CoOperate and you hope for the best and I was like, are you serious? You tell him everything you know and you hope for the best. And she's like the the work part of the problem is he said, everybody in tamp a has CoOperated.

Rebeca has CoOperated. Everyone across the board is CoOperated. There's nobody that hasn't CoOperated.

By the way, when you sit CoOperating mean the form they yeah they they came in.

they SAT down with her lawyer and they said, this is what he did. He did this. He did that.

They shot documents. Yes, yes, yes. That's my signature.

I didn't know what that was. Know everything was my fault. They didn't do anything.

He was all me. So they've all CoOperate, and they haven't been charged theyve been invited. They're all named as unnamed cocoa spirits on my entitlement.

So i've got like twelve people, even just like probably twenty people involved, but there was like twelve of them. So i've got all these names. You know, uh, K, B, D, L, C, what? You know, it's like I know who that is.

Like I know who D W, that's a day Walker. I know, I know who these people are and so there's just a list like twelve plus me. So and some of some of them walked in and said, i'm guilty. I just want to be played guilty the girl, uh, Allison SHE walked in， said, I am. I'm too. I'm tired of waiting for you to come get me walked in with her a lawyer that I just want to be guilty and and they sentenced SHE went to deal to get like thirty six months or three months. SHE called the prison that he went to the low security IT was a female prison at the time.

Female cap called the camp and ask her if he could come back for a tour before he went and they went, excuse me, she's well, i'm gonna be there for about two years so I D like to come and is like a tour I can take because I like to know where i'm going and what is going to be like how are you prepare and they just start laughing this there's no tour. Sweety will give me the tour when you get here. You got to love that like yeah I mean, I thought I was I don't think I thought I was prepared there. No door so ah back you back you got seventy months. But when I got caught and when I was sentenced, they reduced IT to like thirty or know forty .

to forty months.

I reduced .

SHE CoOperate that term.

right? Do you want to say snack? Well.

there must be. I mean snack is too harsh of award but yeah the rated and me you're saying, I don't know.

We can get there. We'll get there. Alright.

alright. So where did the sentencing end up?

So I should say, first, on the CoOperation subject, my lawyer wanted me to CoOperate. And by this point I realized, like, you don't have a choice, you know? No, that's not.

I could have been a gangs. Ster, no, I don't need to be a gangster. Ter, in this way, like you a stand up guy, I could said, i'll just take IT give me fifty four years.

Go fuck yourself. I'm not going to snatch on nobody. And I know you look at me and you think, tough guy, i'm not a tough guy at all. I am not doing fifty some more ideas like i'm not doing IT, and I want to do thirty years.

I was hoping for, you know, I knew I wasn't IT possible, but I would have satisfyed first, another slap on the hand, like I got the first time, I really thought I deserved honor ously. When you, if something, when my lawyer asked me what you really think you deserve, and I thought, I I deserve ten years, you know, I deserve ten years. But so he said, look, they won't talk to you so the FBI, well, first the the secret service lies in. They come in and they interview me who's .

more terrifying FBI t service.

the secret service was so overwhelmingly professional, uh, the FBI and really only the one of the FBI ages and interviewed me. I don't know. How is an agent? I don't know. He was just in effective in the competence issue. The other one was can .

as you matter.

of course I did. Of course she's there was five eleven where three and heels SHE is a giant and an impeccable shape, attractive, one of the angriest human beings ever met. And every F, B, I agent that i've met since then that know her and I mentioned they all say, I was you, they are her and i'm like, what why they?

I was like, kind of aggressive. They, yeah, yeah, she's a bollworm. She's I mean all of them or like, yeah yeah, she's a SHE thought mouse like secret service .

is a little bit more like.

very like it's their job. It's likly. This is just my job. They are polite, professional, you know, that's IT. So this just, this is my nine to five. So, but they come, they flying, and they meet with me for three, four days. One of one of the funny thing is that when I first, first SAT down with them, the good guy's name was a day.

And like Brown sen scales are or something so he he sits down he said, look before get started, we need to talk about something and I said, what he said, we know you had money and we I was like, what? And because we know you've got money hidden, I still don't have any money hidden. What are you talking? And my lord, like doing to talk.

I love that I gave you everything. I all the accounts, you got everything and is like you're looking at an obstruction charge at this point. I was like, I don't have anything and he says, we know you have money.

We know you have money in different ideas, different identities, names. And I go, what are you talking about? And he pulls out a bank statement and slapped IT on the counter and goes, you've got money in southern exchange bank.

You've got one hundred and ninety thousand dollars in southern exchange bank. And I look at IT and I went, there was in the name walter. How come? And I went, did did you call the bank? He said, yeah, we call the bank.

I want IT. okay. Did we call you back and they go so would not we've left several messages.

I said, did you go to bank website? You ah I want to the website dies, what do you think and went, what I mean if we have just bank website I said, yeah, that was professional, right? IT was like a professional website because a bank website and I know yeah, but it's IT was well done and he goes, 哦， god and I go, yeah, convincing.

And I I go with all an illusion. I said the bank doesn't exist. The fake bank I made, the bank made IT when I was not even a temper, I think I gotten IT a natural when I made IT, I was like, guess and I lose that the bank statement, he like, there are color bank statement.

I'm like, no shit so there's no I said a manufact I said, who did you leave? I vents paid for the service in months and he turned around and he called IT net went you no IT IT was disconnected. And I was like, how do you not know that a bank what turns out there was a southern exchange bank, and I use their bank routing number.

And so, I mean, I was thought that was funny, that they is like, I remember a really first split second there. I was kind like a really embarrass that they called me, believe this, you're the secret service. Anyway, I talk to them.

I there's really so the secret services concerned, there's just not much I can tell them you know like IT was me. Beck is already told them everything. A man has already told them everything.

It's not hard to track. And when they raided my house, they've got boxes and boxes. So it's late out. We still IT took forever, like I still went through everything. I explained how I got the drivers licenses, how I made the the bank statement, how I made the birth certificate at how I the whole social engineering of figuring out how to what these little loopholes are like seven days total with these guys.

So you mean like my question.

yeah was like they question me for all day and then they take me back to the Marshals, hold over. And then the next morning I wake up and they chained me up again and bring me back.

Was that like it's that process of questioning like they I mean, you're somebody who is exception. A good at conversation be causing matic. He is part of the games you played. Are they good at conversation?

Um I mean there you know the problem is they're not there to shoot the shit you soon saying like they have an agenda but .

they have to use their words to get information out of you .

and tell you i'm not i'm not hold anything back, okay? Not it's not like i'm sparing jim, you know trust me jims GTA. O, I mean, you're looking at at here twenty seven hundred years, what jim can do five.

Bill can do some. Tom can do six. I don't even like, I don't mean like a Jerry.

Jerry can do twenty, you know. So i'm ready. I'm ready to cut.

Everybody throw, but you not guaranteed that you know you're getting eating for the right.

In all my time, i've seen one one time when inmate got a guarantee to have his sentence reduced and IT was signed up by the head of the FBI was Robert muller gave IT to him to have a conversation with them. That's the only time i've ever seen that document.

okay. So a lot of days of both the secret service in FBI. So F.

B, I was a canadas, was a irritated, didn't like me. And I remember when I H SHE unto the cuffs off, I was like, rubbing my russia as a risk, I know. yeah.

And he was, get used to IT and SHE. Is that at all? Yes, this is all around.

Not that you didn't have a right to be, but everybody was professional. no. So, okay, so we you .

know we .

talk for three or four days with the FBI and you they asked a ton of questions. They brought a tone. They brought documents. You know, so like, hey, who signed this? Know, like that's that's not my signature. That's so so signature or I sign that, I sign that, I sign that that songs where this checa who is this so that songs, you know, you're looking over everything.

One of the things they wanted to know about was, which I ever talked about because it's so minor, is I bribe the politician I got elected because we gotten elected to the a city council so he could vote to get our are the lots we've bought, like a hundred backed lots in ebor city. And I wanted all, there are all single family. We one of them zone multi family. And so we bribed him. I got him elected.

That doesn't seem minor.

It's not a sexy rest of up.

That's pretty. I mean.

so that's a whole other thing. Like so what happened is when they got all of the bank accounts, they see all these checks going to Kevin White. And so they're like, why did James red donate five hundred dollars to Kevin White? Wide brand and Green donate.

Why did alan duncan donate? Why did and know I explained, oh yeah, well, he was. We wanted him to be set to council.

So we paid, you know, game a bunch of money so we could run the end. We can get elected so he could then get all of our stuff. But because he never did, you know, I took off on the run before he was able to do that. And then he ended up getting not long, too, too long after that, he ended up five, six years later, he ended up getting a, indeed, for primary, but not mine, on somebody else's case.

take a smart tention here. And yes, how many politicians do you think commit crimes are a little bit?

Or like criminals, I may think there are some ways that are, and there they are. They are seemingly legal.

The formation grey area. Well.

that's not great. Like this guy was I at one point, I couldn't find anybody to write five hundred checks anymore, so I just game cash, like i'm just handing seven, eight thousand dollars, ten thousand dollars in cash. So, but you know, I I think most of them have legal ways to make on godless amounts of money for you influence, you know, but is illegal.

No, it's their politicians. They have made IT. That is not illegal if you really SAT down and explained IT to someone, you know the the average person would say that's not right. Oh no, that's legal.

Okay, so at the end of these few days, um what was the sentencing? Like.

yeah I I end up I got a sentences. I I get my P S, I back and it's thirty two years to life. And and so we argue about IT a with the prosecutor just before sentencing and they get IT down to the twenty six years, four months.

And then miley says, listen, don't worry, because i'm trying to backpedal at this point. Like I I go to trial. If I lost a trial, I couldn't get more than thirty.

You can, well, more than thirty two years, because you couldn't, can't get life. Thirty two was a max IT, just like mistake, he said. Thirty two is the life.

You can't get life. So like the most, I get to started two years. So it's like i'll go to trial.

I go to trial and see if I can get them to reduce some of these enhancements. SHE insists that he can get the enhancements knocked down. And if you read, they actually read the enhancements, some of the enhancements, they didn't apply to me.

So he goes, and and you know, I believe there and and I think SHE SHE made a valid argument. We get, we go to sentencing. My mom there, she's crying.

My dad there, he's looks, he's looking at me like he's disgusted and crowd through a whole bunch of reporters like the whole Prices packed. And I pleaded guilty. Miller gets up, my Lorry gets up.

And he argues these enhancements, and every single time, you know, the judge is like, I disagree, you know, overall, then I boom, five more years, you know, bam, six more years bams. Because if he had one, the enhancement SHE argued, I would got forty years. No, keep mind to prior to this, a month.

Two, prior to this, the product U. S. Attorney had called millions said, look, deadline, deadline had already come out, by the way. Member, I was worry about daylight coming.

Well, I did come out, but they wanted to do a follow up because IT came out like A A month or two after I got arrested and saying, hey, we wanted recut IT with interviews with him. Well, gale, mckinsey wants that's the U. S.

attorney. SHE wants me to do. And SHE says, i'll consider that substantial assistance.

Now when you CoOperate with the government, they consider its substantial assistance, as with the company. So I CoOperate with you a substantial assistance. He says if he's interviewed by deadline, we'll consider its substantial assistance. And Miller says.

you have to do IT well, said behind that, like you serve as a warning for others or something yeah exactly.

You know you become a cautionary tale like don't let this happen to you so I go and I I interview by date line um I K Morris or whatever is name you know that guy mr. Cox worse you know that I um so he comes and he he he and reviews me Becky's interviewed i'm interviewed AMandas interviewed like a alison is interviewed um like everybody the secret service agent I think is interview like everybody prosecutors interviewed ah you know it's funny the time I I was when I watched IT, I was like that's not true that's not true and that I was like ninety percent true is like looking back on IT yeah you unlike you know like my oud T T wasn't blue 我 我 silver you know it's just stupid but anyway so i'm interviewed by them and they record IT and they air the video so I you said this was substantial assistance。

And then the other thing, as I was interviewed, the FBI in the secret service, now my my lawyer calls the prosecutor the night before sentencing and says, look, he was interviewed by date line and he was interviewed by the secret service and the FBI. And if you do that, you said you'd reduce instance, you would consider substantial assistance and you would reduce his sentence. What are you going to ask for his sentence to be tomorrow at sentencing? And he said we did consider substantial assistance and is just not enough.

What do you mean nobody was arrested? Yes, but what about date line, Milly? I don't know what to tell you.

I just wasn't enough. We consider that, we consider IT. We will consider IT and they did consider IT. So yeah, that's like that. That's you have to really know the meaning of words is so important.

I want to use that some point I will consider I will consider IT.

I consider IT so and .

still feel the same.

So he calls me i'm crushed and she's like a look and they're still investigating. They're gonna make these arrests. And so when you get a sentence reduction at sentencing, it's called a five k one when you get to a sentence reduction after sentencing is called a rule thirty five so SHE said will file a hundred thirty five students.

The arrest are made. Okay, so I go to sentencing and Miller says you're going to get fourteen years on to argue these enhancements, SHE argues the enhancement SHE loses the enhancement. Now that she's not an amazing attacking, she's amazing.

Attn y the judge wanted to hammer me. He hammered me. You milli was a great attorney.

SHE was always polite to me. And by the way, to this day will answer iphone. Call most, most public defenders.

You call them now, you call them after your sentence, they don't answer. call. Great person.

Thank you.

Milk, I didn't give her anything to work with. It's like i'm overwhelmingly guilty. It's like is no defense. So I am up getting sentenced twenty six years.

So a lot years I would like to tell you that they they when they gave me the time, you know that I I was stoic and I I stood there and I I took IT in. But but the truth is, I cry like a baby, like a small child, like you've never seen anyone cry like this in your life. I was just, how did I get twenty six? How what did I do to get twenty six years like murrays st. I've my guys, the kidnap guys that got fifteen. Six so yeah I.

I we can .

I mean, you know, does the pope wear funny? Had like, of course I was scary, terrified, I mean, you know but I kept tell myself. And they're gna reduce the center theyll reduce IT theyll reduce IT they will reduce IT like OK okay OK it's can be okay, can be okay um no, but I wasn't okay.

I I I got I got moved to common the common complex and common floor, the federal question, common complex and fora, which is the largest complex in the nation, federal complex in the nation, there is, there is a at that time, there was A A camp, which was a female camp. There was a medium security to a low security prison for men, a medium security prison and two penitentiaries. And so I get moved to the medium now I moved to the medium not because like that's where like real criminals go, right? Like i'm i'm a soft White boy, like i'm no danger day, but I I hurt someone's feelings once.

But other than that, i'm i'm not a problem. I'm not going to be a problem, but if you have more than twenty years to serve, you have to go to a medium. So even though my security levels said this guy should be in a camp, I had twenty years.

So if you have, you can go to a capital. You have less than ten. So as soon as I am given twenty six years and and twenty six years, they they knocked off three, but you still have three years to get below twenty.

So they go to the medium, so I go to the medium and their guys getting stabbed the very first day, people being stabbed, I get locked into you, go to my cell, meet my cell. They scream, locked down. Somebody got stabbed, the rack yard.

I remember I asked that my self, which I met twenty minutes early, I was like, was like, what's going on on here? Somebody got stabbed in the year and I go, somebody just got killed and he was now they just stabbed them up a little bit. And I thought you're in a place where they they stabbed him up a little bit.

Like you're not prepared for this, right? You ve got to get out here. yeah. So anyway, I go the medium.

and there he goes. The first day and night.

whatever, I had been locked up in the county. And there they are, county jails, but they call them U. S.

Their U. S. martial. They are holdovers, but they are really county jail. They just keep you with the with the federal guys.

So i'm not mixed in with like hobos and you know people like that like i'm i'm mixed in with the federal people really felt like a like a prison. He is the prison, mean it's it's jail but it's a prisons in that last you've locked up. You don't really another different.

So it's it's a jail jail sock jails are much worse. The whole time I was locked up in the in the jail waiting to be sentenced guys really like I just wanted get sentenced to go go to prison Roger and I was like, what did keep saying that like prisoners worse than this, I shake, I is horrible. And they're like, bro, prison, listen, prison.

I can walk the backyard. I can go to the movie room, watch movies out was within right after count for this o'clock count they can wait for so they are like right after count, i'm going to go to commerce. Y somebody y's going to buy me an ice cream. I'm going to be eating an ice cream walking on the rack yard the first day like and i'm you know it's been months and months and months that i've been locked up in this count y jail and i'm thinking I want to go to present like, that sounds nice. I love i'd like an ice cream yeah.

but there was a stabbing in the first day.

Wake up. P telling me I was gonna to a camp. You're gna go to a camp.

You're going to go to a low and honest. I was very quickly. I was walking on the rock yard. I was so I was in the medium. I got there. You know it's it's a real president with the doors, pam, and you can open the little tray thing and feed you out of the train. There's A A stainless steel toilet and sink and you know they have that in the county too, but it's it's exactly what you think of person has been.

But IT feels like a fundamental different experience from twenty six years and the .

door locks and yeah so yeah, I have a Sally and but i'm also they sent me to a prison where guys have tons of guys have thirty, forty, fifty years life sentences there there's ganging sters there there there's murder there serial killers.

There's in a really bad guys there's you know there's guys that are you know trying to take a the manage of guys right yeah um but but time I got there i'd heard all the, you know how you get yourself in trouble, you know how you can like don't go and somebody else to sell you know know the guy you one hundred percent sure do not go in sell, don't even go near. Don't go in the places where you people can close the door behind you or they can trap you in an area. don't. Is all these things that i've been told not to do again .

for sexual reasons.

right? Because i'm a small guy in prison here, you know.

track toward do yeah.

it's problem, is a problem this, yeah, it's bad. It's all bad.

Well, it's good in the outside world, but bad.

Yes, my fear was there. Make me save my head to make sure that the mop wig fits correctly. But there are certain things that I always hate to say this, but I this is a simple way to say is that if you get stabbed in prison, you had IT comment, you did something.

They're not running around just stabbing people. You did something. You and the things that get you is you argue over the TV what channel you want to watch.

You got fifty, eighty guys watching one. T V. Don't argue about IT like that is not worth IT.

Borrowing things that are not returning them, that's a problem. Running up debts, that's a big problem. You know, gambling, gossip, those are the problem.

Those things gets you hurt. Not being polite, be respectful. I'm super respectful. So I was respectful very quickly when I got to call in their continuing education courses. One of the courses is residential real state.

The guy that was running the residential real state didn't want to do IT anymore because he was doing legal work, and IT just was taking to his time. So he came to me that, listen, you just got here. You ve got a real state background.

Why nobody else does. Can you take her with this class of like, sure. So I looked at this curriculum.

I kind of wrote a little bit, and I started teaching in a residential real state class. And at one point I was teaching two classes like a semester or quarter. And this has a love there, like every they think you're going to get out flip houses.

So I started in from the fundamental. I talk about credit, how to borrow, how hard money lenders, different types of barrow, like everything, and, you know, guys are walking. And it's the first time in my life this was funny.

I thought I think I was really ever in a position for this to happen. This was really odd, probably the second, third class, when guys are leaving and i'm having to check him off the role, multiple guys are stopping and then ebro put their hand out, shake in my hand and go in. Good class was a good class, bro.

Then I have guys coming to me telling me, hey, what do you teaching these guys? What do mean my sales? Tell him me he's gonna out, make millions.

I'm taking cox real estate class. I'm telling you I could do this. I'm going to be a millionaire.

And it's like this flipping houses like this is not, yes, but the truth is if you know IT is the flipping houses was what what I basically told these guys, especially the drug dealers, right? The year drug dealer, and you're raised in the projects and you're going back to the projects like this is this is the one industry. You know that you will throw that because you're hustler.

You're not afraid a forty five year old divorced White woman is not going into the hood knocking on doors to try and flip powers, but you will and you know where the neighbor od and you'll knock on those doors and you'll hustle and you you you've been told no before. You don't care. You're not scared.

You're not this and there's tons of money to be made in, in lower income areas. And so I I then when I go through the whole thing and how you can leverage, leverage your credit to borrow money to get into the property and do the renovations with very little money down, and I do the same thing these guys like, they loved IT. So I was.

And what that did for me was two things. One, if you got to the class forty guy, shop for the class, and I say, look, if you don't want to go, you don't want to be here. You just want IT your councillors making you get a certificate.

You don't want to be here. That's fine. Bring me two coffees and like two creamers from cheesey and i'll fill out all your paperwork and you'll pass you'll a certificate and up to see again, I have full of coffee cream because at least ten, ten or fifteen didn't want to be there.

The other guys, seriously, we wanted to be there, and I don't want those guys to be there anyway. They're be a problem. So the other guys are serious about IT.

And some of these guys had to the class two, three, four times. Some of these guys got out and send me money. so.

You know which is like a huge sign of respect, you know by the way um cause I don't know mean anything but I did that I taught G D uh because you know you have to do something for for money and you know I met I met bunch of cool guys and I was hanging out and I was doing well. And after about three years, they they transferred me to the low security prison. At this point, like the FBI start showing up asking me questions.

They ask me questions about the politician I bribe, ask me questions about him. Natural limitations was up, and they were trying to tie him into a the bank fraud because his name was Kevin White, and one of my guy's name was Michael Kevin White. And so they were trying to tie him in, you know did you what did you know about because if you knew about IT status al limitations is ten years. We could know he didn't know um shoot, throw them in there. But anyway because like couple years later, he gets them died and i'm going to jail anyway.

I could decreased sense .

yeah listen, listen, stop, stop was oh my god.

I get all my judgment ment out after the the homeless conversation. It's only gna get what I mean. I I really appreciate your honesty and your insight about like about snitching honestly, that I have a sense that there's a at least a desire for loyalty in the world.

I wouldn't mean nice.

The jura feel in danger and medium or low.

It's funny. I had more problems at the probably IT at the low than I did the medium. But at the medium, the only thing that happened was an article came out in the newspaper is when I was at the medium, IT came out and said, because there, you know, they're still investigating things.

So this article comes out and on the front page of the same peace were times IT was about the politician, big article, and in the article that says they interview Milly, my lawyer, and he says, well, when mister cox was being interviewed by the FBI, one of the first things I wanted to know about was this politician. So SHE just said, mr. Cox was being interviewed by the FBI, so I immediate get taken into custody and they put me in the shoe that the whole right for my own production and i'm there for like forty five days.

And then after forty five days are like cox, what he wanted to do. You want to the shipper? I was like, no, put me back on the compound. I'm like, half the guys here CoOperated. He goes, yeah, it's more than half, he said, but this is, this is a guy from si s, which is .

like their internal .

security. Ty, hundred percent of them are lying about he said, you just came out the newspaper. I, man, i'm not concerned. If you are concerned, you ve got to come immediately to the routine office and tell us will ship you I said, okay, I get out there.

People are given me like the look at me and what's up, you know? But I don't have a lot of friends anyway. I might come there to make friends. And so at one point, this one guy comes to me and walk the yard public.

Two days later, after I get on back on the company and walking guy comes to me he has a go tea and he's dota IT comes down here he got a skull like a little slee thing he had he'd made with a lot of water or something and you know definite looks scary but so i'm walking and he stop using cox. I'm never talk to these guys. I ve been there for a year or so and never talk to any of these guys.

They're all like bikers and you know, iran brotherhood and so i'm like, yeah, what's up? He said, boba bobbs, their leader he he bob told me to tell you, uh, not to walk the yard. You don't want to see you out the yard and I want, okay, I say, well, i'm gona walk the yard tonight my said, and I get the sick kick atomy and I get the trick kick atomy.

But did you talk back to .

a guy with with a wooden sling? And I there twenty feet away.

really you're scared.

I mean, I think I just got num like i'm not stupid, but i'm i'm walked around. I was scared from the moment I got there on, if that makes sense. So you get to a point where you're just numbing.

You're waiting for IT. Especially when I got out the shoe, got out the shoe. I went straight to mycal.

L laid down. Couple minutes later, I was locked down. They closed the doors.

I wake up the next morning, I go to cho, I go to my job like IT starts all over again. So I was I had a very packed routine. So I didn't spin out there all there's guys everywhere.

And i'm thinking at some point I might just be walked around. A guy might walk up and just smash me in the head, but I didn't happen. And it's not the guys aren't been stabbed, but they have got IT coming.

I didn't tell on anybody here. I didn't do anything. It's not that on other yards I might not have gotten smashed, but I didn't get smash. And i'd been there a while, and I taught the real state class, and everybody wanted to take real state, take real state. So I think that insulated me to a debris.

H, I also has A A made a few friends there, and I I think they were probably also kind of putting out the words like broke, cut the sky break so i'm walking across and I tell the guy said, look, man, I said, and I wasn't rude to him. He wasn't even rude to me really. He said, don't walk their yard anymore, but I don't want to walk.

The area will listen. I'm going to go to cho and then i'm going to go out there tonight and walked the and if I get smashed, I get smashed. I go because I got twenty six years and I cannot walk around the next twenty six years not going on the yard.

I said, so i'm gonna there and if that happens, and that happens and he looked at me, goes that I give a fuck. What you do is that's what boba told me to tell you. He said, I told you and I give a shit what you do and he walked off and went out there that night with a body of my named jack um a guy named john gordon, uh, with my cousin in a couple of his bodies.

We walk the track for about an hour baba, in a group of his guys stood there, look at us. And as we walk, partly because we got thirty, forty feet that went on for thirty minutes, and then they kind of broke up and went their separate ways. And there was a couple of times where I would go to the child hall and I would go, and i'd be sitting at a table, and bubble would walk up until the other guys at the table.

I want to let you guys know he didn't even call me a switch. He said. You are sitting with a CoOperating witness, he said, he said, that's how you wanted roll.

He said, you can be rolling with us if there's any trouble. And then they all kind of looked at me and they got got their plate. They moved off. He didn't tell me to move, and he could have walked up as that this is a nation mother that he didn't do that. But I was very respectful .

so as respectable .

what so that went on. But I mean, when I say that won, I am like, literally like that's a couple of times he said the same thing to a guy online. One time guy came out to me later at look men, but i'm sorry that he stands next me in line, bob said some tom, he went like ten and fifteen people back in certain line later on, he came to me, man, i'm sorry, bow but know bobo but I said, well, I said, look, I get IT we're not friends.

Don't worry about IT and here's the thing at some point there I got I end up getting well, the equi started showing up there at the at the prison questioning me about my files in in tampa that were twelve guys that were invited. They show up and they started asking me about IT. And so they're still kind of working in well, at the same time, I end up getting moved to the low security prison.

I get the low security prison. They show up over and over again. But at some point they come to me and they say, look, we went to the U.

S. A tourney. We presented everything we have. We have, we, I have, but well enough for nothing.

I have enough for to indite all of these guys. I think IT was widdle down to maybe eight instead of twelve. And they said, look, the entire economies melting down at this point.

These are some of these are four, five years old. We've got banks that are melting down right now. We've ve ve got hundred, two hundred, three hundred million, five hundred, half a billion doll banks that we're investigating.

We don't have time to deal with this. We're not, we're not going to invite those people so they get away. The agent I was working with hurting was a lesson. Ley Nelson, very nice person. Uh, SHE came, actually didn't have to do this, came to the prison to tell me this is what happened.

And when sh'd first come to see me, I told her, listen, I want to do all this, but no matter what happens, I need you to write me a letter. If they don't, if they don't invite these people, I need to write me a letter that I can present to the U. S.

A tourney on my behalf that I I did everything I could and she's, i'll do that. That's not going to happen. We're going to get the indictment somewhere that I was.

okay. So of course, a year later, he shows up after nothing happens and they drop the case. He shows up as he tells me what happened.

And he's not going to do IT. I was I do you remember that you shoes, I got the letter right now, gave me the letter. She's like, that's IT great letter.

You know, IT says, you know, mister coxes worked bob a lies, this this is and even said, you know, he deserves a reduction, in my opinion blobber. So but there's no there's nobody. Nobody was a nobody was arrested.

So I call my public defenders. I call milli. I explain IT to her and you know, SHE starts, you know, he starts crying and SHE sorry.

And what what are we going to do? What there's nothing you can do your time, bard, but you have one year to file a twenty two fifty five h, which is to say that you're a lawyer is in effective or that the court has made a mistake in some way. And I had been over a year.

And IT had been years, have been like four years. And she's like jam, you're just there's nothing you can do and she's in tears. And I kind of feel like i'm done at that point of done. And what I do is I start right a block.

I write a member, my member, and and this is not a shameless plug for my member, by the way, which is amazing, just, but so what happens is actually, I actually write IT, you know, I write IT, and then I have to rewrite IT, right? Really know i'm doing and i've been reading true crime and that first thing, and i've always like true crime. I get a literary agent comes to see me, tells me after we write some stuff, rewrite IT.

As i'm finishing up my met more, there's a guy that comes on the compound and his name is f from dev oi, f from dev oi. And his business partner guide name David pack out were selling munnion A K forty seven rounds, really tons of munich tions. But they're got in trouble with the and they were selling them to the U.

S. Government for the afghani security forces. And there had been an article in roling stone magazine about him and i'd read IT and somebody points amount says, hey, that's that guys I went up to as well you just got here is like, yeah, I said, look, if you want to write a memorial, anything i'm finishing my memorial, I can always help you.

I can help you right now. Line, you can get a professional writer. What you need help you. So here, right every ever, really was played by jona hill in the movie word gs, so a few months later he comes to me and says, you know, hey, did they sold the movie rights? I was like, oh, wow, that's great.

And I like you and you don't want to write a member and is like, I and I was sold the guys from the hangover a movie and I was like, so the guys from the hangover movie are going to make a movie about you he said only and they are gona call IT like, dude, where's my hand grenade and you're going to be special I from fast time with a rich on high like you going to be a joke all because you don't want to write a memo and get your version out there he was like, holy shit, so I am up writing an outline for him. We work together and then he asked I, can I rebook? I was like, sure and I give IT to and reads IT and he comes back and he said, this is the best thing i've ever read in my life, to be honest. I later found out he had read about three books in his entire life, but still was very .

IT was very nice.

So he asked me, if I write his book, I write this book, we work out a deal and we do that. I'm saying all this because I basically settle in. I'm done.

I'm gonna do. Twenty six years, by the way, just in a small tangent, how did you, how did you know you be good at writing?

I kind of written a manuscript prior even taking off on the run. I used to listen to a john grissom books. I would listen to in the car like, I like john ish ham books, and i'd actually write a man script about A A mortgage broker, know he writes about lawyers.

And like lawyer been lawyers. Not exciting. If you can make that not exciting, I can make being a morge proper. And I wound, I wrote a book, you know, put in my desk and know the F, V. I found that they you know that over the blue print to the flow that he's going to committee wasn't stop IT as much that character was as much me as john grisham characters or him.

But it's still kind of interesting that he was right.

I mean, you know, if john rich m did something similar to what one of them yeah, I suck somewhere .

that the criminal is a is a true artist and the detective is merely a critic. Something like that just resent, have to look that up OK. So already knew you could write why I knew I liked that.

But yes, I think I got Better and Better at IT, you know, as you're writing. And they had creative writing classes know, in prison at the low, the law was a much different breed of animal, you know, like IT no IT, you could very easily get her. You could get hurt either place.

But there were guys that have life sentences been working out for twenty years and just super angry. You know it's the medium if you ve got hurt, the medium IT was probably really go bad. Um I supposed to you get hurt it's the law is more like a first fight in a high school so with knives so anyway I so on there i'm writing i'm doing that. And there was a guy on the compound that came on the compound about the same time, his name, Frank amadeo. Frank amadeo is A A rapid cycling bipolar with features of schizophrenia.

rapid cycling bipolar with feature sophana. So cy.

it's just constant, right? And so there are moments in in his manic state where he his reoccurring psychosis, I guess, is that that he believes, and since he was in his early teens, has believed that he is preordained by god to be imposed of the world. He's a lawyer to sparred, stole close to two hundred million dollars from the federal government. They gave him twenty two years and they sent him to common but IT doesn't this is the part I love the delusions don't affect as legal work. He doesn't say a ton for legal community but .

how do you know he's delusional? I'm just asking questions.

Yeah he he's trust me. I mean, it's it's not me. It's like the transcripts, the lawyers, the doctors, the know yeah yeah there's a ton of fun and and then if you saw an action, you like, oh wow ah you know he he would be completely Normal.

He would be having a completely Normal conversation and somebody would say something that he was, he go, that makes me so I, I, I, I can't. I'm not going to let them do that. When my legions march on washington, we are going to burn the constitution.

And the president will neal at my feet. Any good? I'm going to need your transcripts. I'm going to twenty two, fifty five form.

We're gonna file and I would just everybody would sit there and be like, okay, Frank IT, he was insane. He was the most inside. He was basically running a medium sized law firm from inside of the prison. He was training people.

He taught the, he taught the um the legal research class and was training people on how to do legal research in prison, how to put together motions, how to fight, uh fight their cases, how to do the research, how to type them up. Everything he's teaching, he's teaching a lot, just like a law score, right, teaching these guys. He was limit such a mistake of guy, 所以 是 great lawyer。 Listen, it's gonna get worse.

It's going to get worse because here's what happens is at this point, I don't talk to him for probably a year or so because everybody y's saying is crazy and he's in the first like a year, he gets there. He's drolling out of the side of his mouth. They got on a tonto medication.

IT takes him about a year to get them to take him off the medication. So he, he gives them to take him off the medication. And then he starts of stabilizing his mood by drinking pepsi.

Uh, I know if, but it's great. I know it's crazy. If I know how I see, I see you look at at me like this guy delusion.

I know that works.

but what at some point one of my buddies comes to me and says, look, you ve got to go talk to Frank IT. Here's the other thing over the course of a year or two that he's starts doing legal work for guys. He starts just taking on guy's cases.

I'll do you the emotion i'll do your legal work, i'll do this keeps them busy. But suddenly you start hearing people get released. You know, Jimmy just got ten years knocked off his sentenced.

He's going to halfway house next month. You know, tom got an immediate release. IT Franks walking people up to R N D, shaking their hands, either walking up to my tears, crime.

And and so, you know, crazy or not, what what choice do I have? I, I called three different lawyers on the street and said, this is what happened. What can I do? What can I do? They had me.

They told me to do this and this and this, and I work with them. And then they decided not to proceed. And what can I do and they said, your head row, there's nothing you can do.

You cannot in the middle, in the eleven sort that you cannot force them to file a reduction on your behalf. You cannot do IT is impossible. Your hit, you're done.

It's over. I'd love to take your your money, mr. Cox, but it's not going to happen. I know I can't. I'm just going to take your money.

You're onna lose three different lawyers I talk to I S lawyer told me, but like, I have IT over so my body says, go talk to Frank I said, why? Why wouldn't I got nothing else to lose? So I go talk to Frank. He actually has a little manic moment. That little thing that I just showed you, that's exactly what he said the first time .

I talk to him based on your case. Yes.

I am like, i'm to need your trani I need to see your enticement to your person board. It's like, okay and I turned my buddies like a well, I know I know what you're thinking.

It's final fucking and crazy and he's that is like, I understand that just what choice you have I was like, fuck so Frank files a twenty two fifty five motion on my behalf stating that are not time board that milli was we filed IT against milli stating that he was ineffective, right? That SHE didn't understand the law. SHE had me pleaded to something because he thought I could get a reduction simply for doing date line.

Oh, by the way, when I was in the medium, the government came to me and asked me to be interviewed by american greed. I do that. I'm in interviewed.

You know, they get me on the phone, they talk to me everything my, the prosecutor wants me to do IT. She's reinterview wed ever, which we interviewed IT ares. Billy goes to them to the government says, look, reduced the same.

They have no miles, not enough. Then they come to me and they asked me to write an an ethics and fraud course. I write an ethics and fraud d course.

The guy writes the course with a that flies up to um atlanta. He talks what I think he drove up, but he goes up to atlanta. He talks with the U.

S. A. Turney talks to Milly SHE insist, if he does this, I will reduce. I will definitely consider this. Definitely consider yeah.

definitely.

And then we do IT. It's being used all over the nation. Not enough.

So that's where bit at this point. I go to Frank. I tell Frank what's happening. Frank says, yeah, this is he was, every time they asked you to do something, IT reset the time.

Are you a year from that time to file twenty two, fifty five? Now he insisted that was a variable argument, nobody else. But he said, i'm not going to let them do this.

I'm going to take care of this. I'm a good to send reduced, okay, um emperor, okay, empty. So he is a character anyway, he thirty five thousand, twenty fifty five.

The government comes back. They say he's time. Bard Frank comes back. He know they answer his motion, he files a retort, they file IT just goes back and this just goes, it's only for six months to a year.

And at some point I go to male call and, you know, they call my name and they they hand me this thing, and I opened IT up. And IT says the governments follow the motion for stay so that they can. They want the court to appoint me a lawyer and to discuss filing a role.

Thirty five, producing my sentence. And I, you know, like, I read IT, but I couldn't even understand. I understand.

So I mean, I rushed to go. Fine, Frank. I showed a Frank and he says, he says, yeah, they're staying IT.

They're consensual lawyer and you're gona negotiate for how much they can reduce your senate he says, perfect. So they fly this woman down. Her name was extra panage SHE flies down. We comes to the visitation room. They bring me there, the lawyers room, whatever they call IT the and so we're sitting there, I remember, were talking and SHE says, listen, your motion, your twenty twenty five is written well, but honestly, you don't have much of a prayer and um they're offering you a one level reduction which is thirty months and I went well, that's that's not enough and he said, well, I don't know what to tell you um SHE said they're willing to bring you back and I was like, well, I mean, I don't know.

I got to talk to a Frank, Frank that I deserve this many levels in work back she's who's Frank and I go Frank the guy that's doing all my legal or SHE was he didn't write all this and I was like, no, he was who went and I explain IT to earn and she's like, he's an inmate and I was like, yeah and and she's wise here and I tell her world because he's he's stole a bunch money from the federal government because you trying to take over the world so I tell her that whole thing and she's like, you're letting A A mentally incompetent, no person do your legal work and I was like that because all the competent, the turney, wouldn't do IT they said, I have prayer your people said I had never bear and I said, Frank said he was going to he could get this done and she's like, well, I mean, you know you know like that aren't even know why they're offering you one level lives like what Frank said, you know and i'm like, Frank this, Frank that and so SHE, i'm like you're taking advice from legally an incomplete person I said and SHE said, you know, you really don't have a proactive and why are you here? I said they could crush me so easily. Why are you here? I said they're giving me one level.

Let me talk to Frank. I let you know what we're going to do. So I leave. I call you a couple days later, I tell her friend, and I try to france, france, they go back, go back and argue for more. He said, I think the judge has gone to give you more.

He's going to give you at least, you know, between whatever he said, like six or seven levers or something. So I get, I get moved all the way back to atlanta. The FBI agent comes to talk on my behalf.

The guy that, like multiple people show up to talk on my behalf, they say, you know, mili who I filed the twenty two fifty five against so i'm basically saying you you're an effective you're incompetent, you know but he knows the game. She's like, I get IT SHE gets on the stand and testifies for me so the judge goes, you know, listen, I think we are asking for like nine levels or something outrageous. Prosecutor starts arguing for one level and he said, listen, one level is not nearly enough for what mr.

Coxes is done. He said, mr. Cox, I know you're arguing for nine nine levels of your sense because that was never gonna en like feel like slapped and he said, so i'm i'm going to go to six levels i'm sorry he's at three levels.

I'm going to go with three levels he is which is which is seven years, which he said, for somebody who has no arrest associated with this case, he said, I think it's pretty good. That's what that's a judgment ba ba ba boni hamer, him put the gable down and walks off. That is over seven years, and I was hoping for more.

So I get moved back to coleman. I get moved back to coleman and I go to up to Frank and I said, Frank, I got I got seven years off and he's like, I know, I know. I said that I do not mean to sound unappreciative.

I said I just so I was hoping for more because I was too. He said, IT looks like we're gonna have to eat this elephant. One spoon fall at a time.

And he goes, some things will come out. Some things, things gonna happen. He said, keep your ears open.

Something will happen. I okay. And you know, I honestly, by that point, i'd done, you know, I done eight years. And I remember like if I got a year off for the drug program and good time, and this, I had about eight, eight years left to go and nine years left and I was like, you know, I can do that all right you know i'd been writing um by that point i'd I actually written a story like I got a book deal ford dearly, you know.

And I ended up writing a syn opposites of a guy story, and I got him a rolling stone magazine, and I got a books deal for that. Like, I got an advance, like thirty five hundred box for being in prison, a prisoner to get to three, five hundred advance, like many of money. So, and then we option the film rights.

Basically, the synapses that I wrote for this reporter, journalist, for rolling down, he goes the rolling stone with my, with what I wrote, and gives IT to them. And they okay, that they say, yeah, this is great. We want you to write an article based on this.

okay? He writes the article. He tells me that the article will be from him, his name, gi losson Douglas dod, which is the name of the kid I wrote the member about, and Matthew x, couple of weeks before it's going, the article is going to be published.

He tells me rolling stone doesn't want my name on the article because i'm in federal prison in IT doesn't look good. But don't worry, he's gonna put my name in the article and that's just as good. And I argue it's not just as good.

It's not on my like I would be I would be a writer for rolling stone magazine like you understand. I'm trying to i'm trying to come up with something here that I can rebuild my life as a true crime writer. That's no good.

That wasn't so bad. That wasn't the worst of the worst of IT was ninety percent of the article that he published was taken directly from what I sent him. Like, I mean, sick to my stomach.

Pro, just sick over IT. So but they option the option the life rights for that. And I got a piece of that.

So there's like seven thousand dollars I get to check for that. So i'm thrilled I can keep writing because you have have to understand writing on the computer. There they charge you.

So I start, right, they charge for phone calls, writing, commit, every single thing cost money. So I start writing all these guys stories. I start writing books.

I just come back from, went back to at land. I got risk, got and seven years knocked off my sentence. Come back and i'm walking around the compound now.

There was a guy that was there named ron Wilson. Ron Wilson ran. And if you look at the newspaper, IT says, is like a hundred million dollar ponzi scheme, but really was fifty seven million dollars at.

So he had lost fifty seven million. So IT says one hundred, they always exaggerate. Fifty seven is not enough. Ron ended up getting nineteen and a half years. Ron was an old conman early sixty, sixty two, sixty one.

And I run I and I like run um so we're walking around the compound and he's like, so what are going to do? I like eight, nine more years ago and I was like, you know, i'm going to keep writing and when I get add to here, maybe i'll have a huge body of work and maybe be able to sell or maybe i'll be able to option some more stuff. And if I could get together with rolling stone and get with some of these magazines, I could start writing for them and I could option this, maybe I could walk out to hear or something.

So, right, right, right. So ron was who only locked up like a year. So he was CoOperating with the secret service in his case against some of his code finance. So he's he's already been debriefed his CoOperating. He's actually thinking he might get brought back to have to testify a trial.

We're talking and we're walking and he keeps saying, you know, even if I, even if they they charge those guys and even if this happens, they're not going to reduce my city. They are not cut my sense and you know first will probably because you stole a bunch of money from pension funds and churches that I didn't help your case but I don't say that uh so I say they have to grow. They'll have to you a few CoOperate. They're na have you and they don't will have Frank file twenty two fifty five and he's like a that crazy man um so he says, okay he's like, yeah yeah you don't understand, you don't understand so this goes off for months and and i'm like, what is the problem and he says they think I hid psi scheme money, you know and he had actually dug up like five or six million dollars and psi scheme proceeds that he dog he did .

buried in these are literally.

literally buried in aluminum ammunition canisters. Super interesting guy. So he actually went dog them up and gave him to him.

And I like what you gave all the money and you didn't hide anything. relaxed. It's not a big deal. They're not going to find anything. Don't worry about IT.

And so he mentioned IT couple weeks later, couple weeks later and then one day ago, why do you keep picking this up? Like what are you concerned about that i'm going to happen. And he said.

Can I trust you? And I went, probably not. And he goes. I did hide some money.

I was like, okay, I had a new ge berrian again somewhere. He said, I get my wife like a hundred and fifty thousand and cash. I said, okay, what? She's not going to say anything.

SHE is since then, SHE found out I was having an affair and we're gonna a divorce and he hates me. And I think she'll turn that money. And just to make sure that I don't get a reduction because if you lighted to the FBI, they're not kind.

Doesn't matter what you've done for them, they won't give you anything. And so you should play, mm, start secret service anyway, he is clearly light of the secret service at this point. If he goes and says, this is what he gave me so he's like, I was like a wow.

And he's like, I gave my my brother's holding me maybe thirty thousand for me. And at that moment I was like, wow, like this poor guy. No, that's not what I thought at all. What I thought was, is that enough to give me a sentence reduction?

He is so big.

and I and I saw and you know, I thought, I thought I did. I thought now I thought that's not enough. That's not enough. It's nothing that's not even two hundred thousand dollars like and they didn't want to give me a reduction. My prosecutor was pissed that I got seven years off SHE wanted me to get thirty months SHE wonna get anything up to her SHE is going to do IT.

So I go, I lay down, I go to bed like a month later i'm on the phone with my lawyer because I had written, remember, I my, I had a main descript for my book, and I wanted to put some of the stuff that was said at my in my sentencing in the book. So I was trying to get my lawyer to mail me my transcripts. And he had done IT.

So I called her, I said, listen, you said you're and then SHE went, this is estor. SHE is so what else going on in there? This SHE never wanted to talk to me like, SHE didn't you know when they were paying? Or SHE didn't wants to talk to me and and I was like, what you mean? nothing.

I just need my transcription. She's like, nothing that is happening, nothing you want to talk about. I was like.

And I want, you know what, you know what, there's something weird happened. They listen to this and I told her about ron Wilson. And he has hold on, shouted, he looks the modern computers of, wow, this is a bad guy.

This a bad guy, and he told you that you know where that is? Absolutely, I can tell exactly. And SHE is OK OK OK. She's s let me look into this. Like, okay. So a week later, A C O comes to me, I go take ox and I go, what's up? He was looked at the next move because, you know, they have controlled moves, all the doors are locked, and they opened up for ten minutes.

So you can run to the child holder, you can run to the, you can run that they are no running on the compound, but you can walk fast, yes, to the rack yard or or the library, whatever. He says, the next move, go to S, I, S, you know, so I go to S, I, S. On the next move.

But I was used to go there, by the way, because I was constantly ord oring freedom of the information acts, and they would. So i'd order your eype an inmate, i'd order, i'm writing a story for you, and i'd order IT and y'd send IT to me. And then they would catch IT.

They would be like, why are you getting lexis information? So they call me down there I go now, I ordered IT for him, and i'm right. This story, and i'd always been a rolling stone over. They like, what's a story? And I tell the story that guys, pretty good story here.

And so I go down there but this is different this the guy answers the door is guy as they call him boll along he was a real asho is a little tenant if S I S and he's like here cox, sit down, dies the phone I was here you're going to talk this guy i'm like what I pick up the phone and like, hello and the guy go hey, this is agent group with the secret service. I understand, you know, where ron Wilson is has a hidden positive money. I I want something in the writing.

I want, you know, so I start doing that and they okay, and I get his email address, and we start mAiling each other back and forth. And he ends up getting a letter from the U. S.

Attorney in south CarOlina that says they will consider substantial assistant if they, if they make arrest or recover a substantial amount of money as the best amount is consider. So I started talking to this guy, and he starts asking me questions about ron Wilson. Like, ask this, asking this.

So like, well, I got to work that into a conversation. That's an thing. This goes on for six months so i'm asking questions and i'm typing up little report that i'm i'm a prison snatch now.

So i'm not just like CoOperate. I'm not in prisons. So i've i've moved down. I've moved down actually from being just .

a CoOperating witness or in son.

you can even really say, um now you could say prison and you could say prison and I think prison snack I think that's probably closer to the time the most guys with .

you prison i'm not sure IT rolls .

off the tongue Better prison rat doesn't sound as good as prisons snitch I don't know. I don't spend a lot of time talking about this. So what happens is i'm asking Wilson questions periodically and at some point they contact me and they say, listen, wis about to get some bad news.

Are you okay and they know he's, you know, like, I want to tell you what IT is. Let us know what happens. So like two days go by and one day Wilson comes up to me one day and says, cox, cox, i'm like, shit and my kid, what's up?

You know, it's like, like, I can't believe this. I gotten died. I was like, what what happened? No, yeah my wife, they question my wife and my brother and my brother.

My wife walked in first. You said I don't have nothing. I don't know what you talking about. The next day, the brother walks and and gives them one hundred and fifty thousand dollars in cash.

And so the next day the wife comes back and gives them two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in cash. And a bunch of a silver like gold boy on and silver know because he was a his his ponzi scheme was based off of silver. He was going to invest in over for you.

So half a million dollars, they turned over half a million, half a million old that this was like a hundred thousand. And he was, he was like, I know, I didn't know I could trust you, my gran, what are you doing? I thought we were. So take for the ice on the cake, by the way, the ice on the k.

And one more thing there's so if you're going to if somebody CoOperate with the federal government, let's say, I get arrested and then you want to help yourself and you go, yeah okay um look, uh, Jimmy is he lives next to me and he's running a math house, you know a math let whatever and they go and they read Jimmy and he gets arrested. You're gonna something off that not a lot, but you gonna something now and and they could just say we were gna bust him anyway. We were already on to him right now.

The next level would be you wear a wire. So I were a wire and I I was in danger. Keep mind, i'm asking this guy questions inside federal prison.

I'm in danger. So whatever that's like the next level you're active. You're taking an active participant cipher in the um investigation.

And the third level would be you actually get on the stand and you CoOperate in you. You testify that there's no Better CoOperation than that. So when Wilson says to me.

They're going to move me back to south care, ola. They've died in me. They charged me.

What do you think I should do? And I got, I think you should go to trial because I know they'll have to call me as a witness yeah just to let you know because I don't I don't want you to I don't want to walk out here and have you feel feel like, hey, there's some there's some good to this guy so i'm ready. I'm ready to get Wilson like a fish.

So but you are putting yourself in danger if you get to stand, right?

I'm already in danger if people they are heard what I was doing, I probably would .

have been increased chance of hearing or no.

he does, but also increases my ability to get more off my sentence is sure. So what happens is couple days later, he's on what's called the pack out, right? They are going to move him maybe a week later.

So they come and get them. They move in. He gets back there to self co liner and he pleaded guilty.

He, he, they sentence him he gets six months added on, he said, was now in for thousand nine hundred and a half to twenty years and by the way, when covered hit he was released so healing ended up doing like six years on a twenty year sentence because he was older is by that one. He's sixty six, sixty seven years old. You know, he's an old.

Anybody older than fifty five was endangered, especially in the prison. So they had A A copy thing where they were releasing these guys and sitting in home on the single monitor. He's an old man.

He's not, he's not to hear he's, he's not a danger. So they sent him home, so he ended up doing so. He aven't serve the six months early original sense, whatever.

Not that I care. So understand makes you feel like poor ron. It's okay. So his wife got like a hundred year, a hundred SHE, got like a hundred hours of community service or something or sixty hour. And I think his brother got six months paper.

So they they got charged with obstruction of justice and they didn't need the one just like six months product and community service, nothing. So when which I turned around, i'm waiting for my reduction, waiting, waiting after about ninety days after the guy gets sentenced, maybe six months, I send a letter, hey, what's going on to the prosecuting? To my prosecutor there? The prosecutor, both districts, no response.

Then I go to Frank, I explained a Frank, Frank is known what's going on the whole time. And Frank goes, OK, i'm going to file twenty to fifty five. So we file twenty two, fifty five.

Government comes back. And the first thing they say is, you're honor. We don't know about any CoOperation. We've never heard about any CoOperation. So of course, then we submit the letter that we have.

The judge comes back and the judge is up saying a little complicated, but IT hands up saying, look, I don't have jurisdiction to hear this because you you may be time bard. But i'm gonna the the appeal court here. Now typically you have to, you have to get what called like a rider surfing to appeal.

You have to make sure that you are they have a case, he says, i'm waving the third and i'm waving the five hundred fee to file IT with them, he said. And he basically expertise that for me, which is a subtle way of telling the prosecutor, I think he's got something and i'm sitting IT up there and he, in the way he writes his motion, is basically saying, I don't have the jurisdiction to hear to do anything, but they do. They need to do IT.

And i'm paving the way you want to pay any money and you need that third. So the prosecution immediately comes back. They follow A A one level reduction.

And we immediately, Frank file something saying, hey, stop. We don't want to reduction. We don't want to one level.

We want to come back to court. Please don't don't rule on IT. So the judge says, okay, i'm freezing everything.

I'm putting a stay on everything. I'm going to give this guy a lawyer to try and figure out what you're onna do. They fly down a lawyer, lean weber. So SHE comes in and SHE comes in, seize me. And h.

SHE says, listen, I, I, I see that you want to go back and fight this in this but honestly, I don't think you're going na get anything more than one level uh, I talk to the prosecution. They said, theyll give you what he said. I can work on trying to get you two level, but you don't have much of prayer.

You're going to get get crushed and I said, then, then why are you here? If they can crush me so easy? Why don't they do IT? Why would they pay you like they pay them like twelve grand or something just to fly down and all your expenses to to negotiate for me. Why not crush me and she's like, I don't know so well, Frank said four levels and she's like, who's I go first to get the road all this and she's like, oh, is he a turney and I go, is he in here? I'm like that he's in here.

She's like White in here and I tell her we have taken over the world and he says, that's the strangest thing i've ever heard my entire life and I said, I understand but Frank said she's like you're listening to an incomplete and absolutely and SHE and Frank said, four lab, we want four levels SHE. He said for me, tell you, we want four levels SHE. Okay, SHE leaves SHE goes.

The U. S. Attache, we argue two levels. They come back at two levels. No, we go back and forth. We start filing motion saying we want to go back, we want to hearing, we want to bring back all the F, B, I. Agents to secret service agents.

And she's like, what you want to turn this into a circus, exactly what I want to do and turn into the biggest circus because i've already got one level. They come back one day. He says, listen, three levels is the best you're gna get SHE said, so, uh, I guess you'll be moved back here, will go to the hearing accident.

I'll take three levels and SHE is what he talk. He said, you said four levels. You said, Frank, when lets you take anything less than first, you know, Frank said to tell you, I was happy with three.

I wanted you to argue for four. I'm good with three. I'm not here and like a year, so and I don't want to be moved back.

I do not have to get on that bus. You don't want to like to be moved. horrible.

So I said, I just want to three levels. So then we argue about the wording for about two, three months. And then they file IT.

And then I get five years knocked off my senate because three levels at this, at the lever I was that now isn't seven years. Every level you get a little last time I get five years off. So i've got twelve years knocked off my sentence. At this point, I may have a year and a half to go and you know that's double so I was super, super happy.

Um and i'm i'm going tell you something ah and i'm sorry, bro um but every time I think about IT and I I just 是 feel like I have to say IT like i'm Frank come insane but I can I I didn't have a fucking and prayer without that eye and is crazy here as much of a pain the access he was um like I could never repeat him like like i'm not I shouldn't be here。 I'm supposed to be in prison right now. My update was there was twenty thirty without that guy where, you know he got himselve out.

He didn't do all that time. He got himself out. I don't even know how did they have throw back in prison again for six months and he got him again. He's in, he's incredible. He's insigne, but he's incredible.

Is an .

lando.

I mean, seems like he seems like a good lawyer and a good man.

He's great. He's great. I mean, there is no doubt in my mind I would be in prison right now. IT wasn't for him.

IT he's done this fathers walk.

People write out ten years off, five years off. Nine years off, ten years. I mean, it's but I didn't pay and I didn't pay for one thing. I didn't pay for my stamps. He paid for everything.

Sounds like the other lawers don't really believe as possible. And he does sentiment.

I think he's he was willing, he's willing to badgered them into doing, you know what they should have done. To begin with, I actually wrote a book about IT, which he left about him, about him. And his story is so over the top.

What happened with him? I mean, little, I tried to take over the congo. I mean, there's documentary about IT.

There's, it's called nine days in the congo. It's an the same story. And one of the .

story just like, what is A T i've .

pitched IT several times and uh IT IT would be great. But so I wrote us some options and I turned that into a book, was ending of the book, oh, it's insanity. It's in insanity. But about IT like a year and a half later, like I ended up getting out of prison. And I want to the halfway house.

What I feel like freedom. I was. I.

This is bad. Brown, this is bad. I, I remember when I was live in the prison.

So, you know, I have some great guys in prison. What is the weird thing say? But I met Better. I met Better people in prison.

Then i'd ever met outside prison at that low, I mean, because I was the first time that I actually had friends, you know, like I I really had someone that wanted to hang out with me, just like I I didn't have anything to offer them. I can't make any money. I can do anything for you.

We're just hanging out because we like to laugh, or we have things in common, or we are fascinated by each other. We just have a good time and fun. So when I was leaving, I remember my mom showed up and my brother showed up and they picked me up, and we were driving off and remember of looking back at the prison.

And my brother said, pao, i'm going glad to see that, you know, believe that behind you and I I start crying. And like nobody talked, I was so uncomfortable. But IT was just start crying and and IT wasn't because I was like, oh, it's over.

IT was because I was like survivors guilt, you know, like I was leaving all of my friends and I felt so bad that I was leaving them. But I I want to I went to the half a house and I had. I had four I had.

So when I was getting out, I remember joking that I had exhausted my trolling account, my inmate account. I'd exhausted IT. I had nothing. I'd like eighteen cents. I couldn't figure out how to spend IT.

And they give you a debit card when you leave and I said, like and they charge you every time you you sweat, use the card. Like, I don't even have enough to spend the eighteen cents because this charges like three dollars. So I was like, I was like A I was like, I wonder if they are still giving in my debit card and i'm laughing.

Everybody like what you going to and and my one body looked at me. He was like, you can go the halfway house said nothing wrong and I was like, not at call. I said not at school, you know, I said not.

It's said I wanted start the bottom. I've got that common. I got working at mcDonald's coming. How much to work at mcDonald's? I give a fuck and IT was like, well, I think I use I think you're need to buy clothes I think doesn't up.

It's I said it's it's, it's the goodwill they'll give you a bunch that they give you a bunch of crap if you don't have anything for indigent. I said I made IT and a couple days before i'm leaving, four dollars since I got my account and I was like, what the fuck and IT was from a body of mine and I go to him, my body, uh, Tommy. And I was like, Tommy, did I show up four hundred years of my count and he said, I can let you go for, but nothing wrong.

So I get to the halfway house, and I go to walmart, and I buy three hundred dollars worth. I close at walmart. I ve never been in a walmart.

I got a super ball, your huge. And I go there and I buy a bunch of clothes, and I buy, bought three hundred buch of clothes, and I still have some of the blue jeans. To this day, I still wear some of the blue jeans. And I stayed the half White house. And I I called the body in mind and named troon culter.

And he wants a gym and you know, I grew up with him, his whole family, like, they owe a bug and I I called him and I said, hey, man, i'm in the halfway house and he'd like, hey, what's going on? Can I do anything for you? And I was like, I mean, I need a job.

I know thing was going to give me a job. He was, rose, you're higher. I give me a job.

He said, I get a minimum wage. I said that that's fine if I can stay out of here. I used to work like eighty hours a week.

I was like, I going to stay out a hear eight hours and you pay me minimum wage. Oh, hello, a perfect. So I miss gym and I got free rain.

So i'm playing on my computer goofing off all day. And my boy pete, who still locked up, he's texting me and calling me. He's like not texting me. He's emAiling me through the corlin system and and these calls me period ally, like, have you started a website? Because one of the things I was going to do when I got out was I was going to start a website with all these stories that I written.

And I was like, no P, I don't I can't like, I don't have a computer is like, how much is a computer? I was like, like three hundred box. I was like, I I said I could probably get to use apple like macbook, like a five year old macbook or something now for like three three hundred fifty whatever and I said, but he like, go q so I saw you three inner box, like I said, is not three inner box row is three hundred box.

Plus is getting A A word press website, which I said costs money. Plus is hiring somebody to help me figure out because I don't and napped, I don't know how anything works. So he, okay.

And I said, plus I need this. Plus I need that. I know a bunch of stuff.

I need six hundred for this. I need three hundred for this. I need five hundred for only one thousand for for this and he goes, okay?

He said, which okay, I got a so he resolved at list because I got you, but I don't have any money. And I go, how are you going to give me any money? He was here every day.

I walk across the combat. Some people lestock me and say, how's cox to and and I say, he always okay. And they say, does he need anything? And I say, no, no, he's good.

He said, I must start telling these fuckers, yeah, yeah, he needs something. You want to do something form. Here's what he needs. I ended up getting two laptops sent to me. I got the computer program um final cut pro.

I had I guys in prison cutting me checks so that I could build a website and put all these stories on the website. So I start putting the webs and I don't know what i'm doing. I think I put them on the webs so I slowly taste forever um putting pictures up.

I'm trying to figure out how you know photoshop works, how all this stuff the whole time I was I wanted to start because everybody, the last one I was just get on a prison already, kept telling me, like, you gotta start a podcast. You got to start true crime podcast. And I know the podcast is the term podcast came into existence in two thousand and nine when i've been locked up three years.

I'd never been on youtube. So by the time I get out in the last year, two guys are coming up to me, giving me magazines like, this is what a pot you need to read. Look, true crimes huge.

And you have to think guys are asking me every couple of days, cox, you're got any stories. Oh my god, I did you read cashing coke and they're like, is that the one with a guys or rob in the drug deal? Yeah, I don't. I read that one.

Did you read this one? No, I don't read that. That's the one with a guy. Oh my yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I I mean, giving these little stories and then they d come back, give him to meet with you don't have, you don't have anything in there, right? So this is guys that would never read in their life of reading. And i'm writing about the guy in in b two, the guy and see one.

So I put up the whole thing. And in their world, anyway, they're all telling me, do a true crime podcast. True crime podcast. I don't know, I know what that is, but my now i'm starting to listen to them on youtube, cereal and cold case files, you know, that kind of stuff. And I think that's what I want to do.

Well, my buddies said there's a guy named danny Jones that runs a podcast called concrete and it's in saint Petersburg and he lives a couple miles from me. I see him all the time and I went OK and he said, you should, you should email him. He's got a guy on there all the time that does real state.

I go. I just got a prison for for bank ford related to real, said he doesn't want to interview me. He is.

Well, you could, maybe he does. Maybe you could ask him about starting a podcast. Okay, so I send to me an email.

I remember danny called me and he said, hey, is this map? I was, yeah, this is that he's, I got your email. This is daily Jones. I was okay and he says, he said, I got email a good fucking and email what he was. I got a lot of emails though he said that is A A good one he that was a really good like, I mean, that was well written.

He was like, I immediately know how to talk to you and I said, okay, I said, killing you know, I start off with, I think I started off with, hey, my named macos and i'm a conman I open was recently released from federal prison and so he was like, I I am who who says that so anyway, he said, what's going on? I said, well, and I tell him what's going on. I want to start pg cat babble and you know, danny, he listens to me for thirty minutes to hour.

And i've heard this and like, yeah, know, youtube not really like that. That's not really how we do IT know. I don't know that you you can have to get a production company. And bob ba, he is.

But you know why? What you really need to do is to see if people are even interested in you or your story, or you're able to talk. You should come on my show, you know, shameless. Yeah trying to get some content. Well.

I mean, so as I told you off line, the Daniel concrete pockets is really good. So actually listen to, I mean, IT, turns out people do like.

listen.

turns out, I mean, you are telling stories.

What any I by time I got, I couldn't do danny park, I like I I can do about in the half way out. So maybe I get out the half White house in a couple months, go by, maybe two months, three months, go by. And one day I get a phone call from danny like, right? I D october, november.

Like he's like this. And I had a guest fall through. I got nobody. I needed to come on. I answered all your questions.

I'd call him five, six times, you know, I had, you said, and I was like, I was like, fuck, i'll do IT. That video got like a two million views. Then I did. Patrick bet David flew out, then I did software underbit I then I did like people, i'm sorry and then, you know, I just blew up and then people started asking me to come on now talk for no reason for which was crazy. But you were saying.

i'm sorry is your best to us now?

He died when I was in prison. He came to see me. Yeah, he came to see me two or three times.

When is the first time he found out that you were doing fraud?

The first time I got in trouble .

when you got the.

because I had, you know by the kind of explain that you know, like sometimes happening, I don't want him to hear from anybody else .

so you say you to talk to on directly water.

Super disappointed.

Did he ever tell you he loves you after that?

So I after at the twenty six years, and the government decided they weren't going to entity body. And I really was like, ow, this is IT like you're done. He came to see me, but just by himself.

And I remember he, I remember when he can see me. I, you know, he was bite. He was by himself, but he never came by himself.

So I remember thinking, my mom came to my mom, and as soon as I walked in, he walked like, what was mom? And she's fine. She's fine. And he SAT down with me.

He set up and I he said, how how are you do and I was like, i'm good and he was just like, and you know, he's getting sick who's get older so know, we talked for a little bit just about the situation and I was like, I like already going to do know there's nothing I can do like everybody, i've called multiple attorneys. I've talked to people. There's nothing I can do and he was like, you know, we are you, anna, figure that out.

You know, he was, he said, you're clever and you're smart and you're not you're not gonna a do all at that time and I was like, i'm done. It's over. I'm gonna get out of here when i'm sixty. If I behave myself and if I don't, i'll be sixty four. And he was like, as I got ta happen, and.

So he said, I think that was the first time he, you know, I knew he was proud of me when I was making money, but he never said, IT, you know, you got to look like he was like, impressed. But we were sitting there and he said, I remember, he said, because the only time I can ever remember him saying he was proud of me and i'm, he said, you're gonna figure this out. He said, i'm not proud where you ended up, but you've done amazing things. I wish you user talents for something different, but you've done things that I could have never done, and you've read an amazing adventurous life, and i'm proud of you. And that you know.

I wish you could see, you know.

My mom, I am my mom's, my mom's funny because my mom came to see me. My mom gang, sir, my mom came to see me every two weeks for thirteen years, SHE missed about a month and a half when he had a stroke and ended up in a wheelchair. And then he came in the wheelchair and he would make my brother bringer. My brother and sister would be like, mom, are you sure you want to go like, you know, if it's it's so hard to it's such a long drive and you get so tired.

Well, sleep in the car, I know, but you know, do you know we have to wait that that lived that you know, in that the waiting area know forever IT takes forever warm and the White chair, so fine, well, I know, but it's such a pain to get in and she's SHE is i'm going to see my son and you're taking me SHE, yeah, yes so I I so SHE yeah he was he was something else and and I was say, you know. Like if if I had to say. You know, I don't think about all the things I did to get out like I know, you know, there's all these guys you like, you know all I wouldn't do good for fucker in you.

Well, I wanted to get out. I wanted out. And the I think on the cake of me getting out and I would have cut every mothers focus head in that prison off.

I was able to get out just in time to spend the last year and a half of my mother's life with, I saw two or three times a week, took her dinner once a week. Was able to walk, go on walks with her in her wheelchair. I was sitting right next to her when he had her final stroke. I held her hand when he took her last breath. So if I have to be called a switch, the rest of my life, I don't give a fuck, like I may not deserve IT more, but SHE deserve more.

Do you regret? So you just look back, would you do IT? Would you do any part of your life different?

Oh, I scrap all this. Yeah, yeah, um yeah. I scrap all this to be. You know, here these guys say I wouldn't change IT because I made me the man I am today.

For the man I am today is a fucking in fifty four year old sn bag, multiple felons starting my life over broke, you know, living off a scraps, you know, trying to make you tube work like, you know, i've got, you know, two dead parents. I'm divorced. I have a son that doesn't talk to me.

I have a son that doesn't talk to me for good reason, not because of a misunderstanding, because he understands like he's you can even argue with the, you got a powerful argument like I don't want to be a part of this guy's life. He's gun back. He stole money.

He went on the run. He abandoned me when I was no three years old. I don't want a thing to do with them like.

I get IT like I, you know, and I tried, I tried, and I tried to do all the write things. You know, I wrote the letters. I, I, I drawn pictures.

I've tried to call, and instead happening like I would do anything to go back and just be that regular middle class guy with the two kids and a wife working a regular job. You know, I I like that's a good life. You know, those are that's a good person.

And you know, I I just made one arrogant decision after another, after another, until it's snowball, and I couldn't take IT back. And then I did everything I could, even if I wasn't the calculating, backstabbing, scum bag mother fucker that I can be. I've been prison right now.

Sorry, you know, so yeah, yeah, I would much rather be A C. P. A right now. I would much rather, you know, should have stuck with me and insurance, the gestion or something. I mean, you know, I never should have wide that thirty days later, out never.

That was a mistake, was the first mistake.

I was a huge mistake.

You think your son will forgive you?

No, unfortunately, according to my, my x wife. And my sister and everybody, he is a part of their lives, you know and i've seen him, you know, my mothers funeral, I saw, you know, i've seen him at several functions. Do you look across and he looks right through me.

I think that he's all, everybody says he's all, he's just like you. He's just like you and everybody says, i'm just like my dad. I've never smoke a cigaret. I've never drink alcohol, not a drug. Never done any drugs because my dad was an alcoholic and my dad smoked two packs a day and everything in our house ricked of nickey and i've never smoked and my dad was A A pill head.

He was he was always on some kind of prescription medication and he was draw, you know, and I don't I don't want to be that person and like one day I drew a line in the sand and I wouldn't do IT, and I think he's rain a line in the sand and he's decided, know, this is the hill i'm gonna die on and i'm i'm not gonna back off IT and in the thing is, my x wife tells them this, he's a good person. You should be in his life his his father, because he was adopted when I was in prison, they adopted him a nick is, you know, his his dad, a nick has told him, but nick came to see me. I was in prison, you know, nick has told him, like, hey, you, this is a mistake.

You're making a mistake. Everybody that knows me knows and he said, he has said, no, so I fully believe this. No, I mean, I hope it's not well.

I hope you figures you. I think there's a lot of good in you despite you calling yourself as come back over and over.

Keep bother you. You mentioned that earlier.

What advice would you give to Young people given that you've lived quite announced in our life? What advice would you give them? How to live a life that can be proud of?

I mean, found in a position that anyway will listen to me, but because to me and I don't have any advice and I don't think a father would give you and it's like, work hard, be appreciative. I mean, things are so good out here. I hear people complain all the time.

And I think a huge part of just being happy is being appreciated. I didn't appreciate anything when I had, this is so called shape, or when I had all the money in the world, I was miserable. But when I got out with nothing, I was happier in prison with nothing.

Then I was with two or three million dollars prior to prison and driving date. A chick I was never should have been dating. Driving a sports car, they came singing all over the world miserable. I'm crying and driving away from prison because I already miss my friends. You couldn't never told me and that .

was gona happen. Turns out money, in fact, does not be happiness now.

And I know and IT IT is gicquel are right, but it's it's so true.

Crying, driving away from prison yeah .

you know what? I met my wife in the hallway house. So he had just got out of prison. He was in the hallway house when he just did five years for like a meth conspiracy. I never would met her finding on a person.

And now your date night is hunting alligators together.

Yeah, that was, that was, that was like a month or so ago.

This is a folks. This is what bad as people .

doing for in my y hunting is a former SHE used to. So he was a military, and in p in the military, SHE was SHE did SHE hunted SHE, ran a hog hunting tour guide service for six years, went to prison for five years, got out and then, you know, now she's A A marine mechanic. And yeah, our date night, the other night was a we went in the middle night, went to a lego catrock I went hog, I went the allegation .

or yeah and if I may say so, she's quite beautiful.

Thank you. And I did added nice SHE didn't want to date me the other way out too. I I kept say, I feel like you're sweet on me SHE just like i'm not, i'm not I make fun of guys like you were a city boy I like, can I don't know I .

feel like what you .

were her down I just just exactly I did yeah is .

that karzi a IT always works well. mad. Thank you for for being so honest.

Thank you for being who you are. I do think there's a lot of good in you. Thank you for telling a story in the story of others who have we've .

made .

mistakes in their thank .

you for talking to that. I appreciate you have .

me on there's a really short conversation. Thanks for lighting to this conversation with Matthew cox. To support this pot gas, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now I believe you some words from mario puzo, author of the godfather behind every successful fortune, there's a crime. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.