Musical Epics, a Reincarnation of Sappho, and Kaos... Your Questions, My Answers
01:02:18 Share

You're ready for a comeback. And with Purdue Global, you can do more than take classes. You can take charge of your story, of your career, of your life. Earn a degree you can be proud of and get an education employers respect. It's time.

Your time. Not just to go back to school, but to come back and move forward with Purdue Global, Purdue's online university for working adults. Start your comeback at purdueglobal.edu.

Have you ever brought your magic to Walt Disney World like, "Hey, we came to play"? Did you tip your tiara to a Creole princess or get goofy officially? Step up like a boss and save the day? Or see what life's like under the tree of life? Did you? If you could, would you? When we come through, it's true magic, 'cause we came to play. Bring the magic at Walt Disney World Resort.

Hi everyone, it's Savannah Guthrie and Hoda Kotb from the Today Show. Nobody does the holidays like today. From festive performances and great gift ideas to tips for the perfect holiday feast. Join us every morning on NBC and make today your home for the holidays. Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby. And I am your host, Liv, who is recording in a brand new room for the very first time and still trying to figure out how it's going to sound.

Turns out you can podcast for over eight years and still not entirely understand the recording equipment that you use. And so I don't entirely know how this is going to go, but it is a great first recording.

So I am here again, recording for the first time, having moved to Toronto. My life is still very much up in the air. Those of you who also have ADHD will understand how difficult it can be to get back into any kind of

self-determined workload or creative space while you are in a home, you know, full of boxes with no determined placement for that work. Like, I don't know what it... I mean, I just...

It's so hard to sit down and focus on creative stuff when you don't have like the set place where you've always been doing that. It's hilarious. Anyway, I am figuring it out. And I am first here with an incredibly late Q&A episode because I had intended to be able to do this before my move. So I didn't have to run so many re-airs over the past few weeks.

But it just, you know, it turns out that moving across a country the size of Canada where to drive, you know, during the almost winter it took...

Seven days, a handful of mountain ranges, some prairies, two full days driving in Ontario because this province is so large. And also simultaneously doing all of that with two cats, one of which is a lovely, poor, anxious girl who I adopted this past summer who's named Squid. And I would give her the world if I could, but she is...

utterly terrified of being picked up by humans so you know driving her across the country that was fun um and then the other is the kitten that i have formally introduced on instagram so if you are not following me on instagram you probably need to check that out anyway because spoilers a couple months ago i i made a quick a quick trip to greece and i brought back a kitten um from

uh, uh, house that I'd stayed at, uh, in the earlier in the summer where I met a little pregnant cat and her boyfriend who, well, anyway, I went back to for one of the kittens. His name is anchovies flipping adorable. Uh, but that's a little secret ish that I've been just keeping under my hat for the past little while until it was all sorted and I'm out here. Um,

But that is all to say, hi, I'm here with a Q&A episode. Thanks so much for your patience while I did the move, listening to those re-airs. I'm so lucky I was able to have those conversations that I recorded ahead of time, but I was not able to record this Q&A in the timely manner that I hoped for. But that's great. It's here now. Yeah.

And so it's going to help with my ADHD and ability to write creatively in the current upheaval of my home. So that'll be for next week. And I'm going to finish The Euripides. I can't believe I still, I just never got to finish that episode. Just, oh my God. It just, you know, it was a lot moving across the country. It wasn't originally supposed to happen so soon, but other things happened and they were great. And so now I'm here and it's exciting and I'm going to play catch up for the next couple of weeks.

For now, though, you all provided me with some of just always incredible questions to answer. So here we go. Musical epics, reincarnations of Sappho, and chaos. Your questions, my answers. Well, nerds, so I have so many questions from all of you guys, and I've already kind of, uh...

had another idea for some of them. So sometimes you all will send me like these really epic questions, not just about Epic the Musical, which I will address, but epic questions. And I'm trying to think of ways where I can address them in more direct and like, I guess, more often. And so I think I'm going to look into starting a new segment where I just –

answer even maybe one big question or something like that. So that's all to say that if you left me something like big and epic, you might hear it later because sometimes it's hard for me to read through like the really long messages on an episode like this where I'm trying to get through so many. So...

all to say more in the future. Basically, I've spent the last six months just having ideas and upon ideas upon ideas for how I want to grow this show and just like adapt it to kind of make it work for real

what I want to do now and kind of how we're going to go forward. There's so much to come and more updates later. I'm going to stop trying. I'm going to try to stop rambling and actually get to your questions. And so let's start with the elephant in the room. Epic, the musical. This question is from Ander and they have a great question, but first I want to address

that I have been asked this a great many times. A great many times. And I apologize, this answer is probably not going to be particularly satisfying, but it is an answer. And so if you are one of the many who have asked me this question, thank you. You can consider this a group answer.

via the question from Ander, who said, I know there are many inaccuracies, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

I have not. I have not listened. So it's my attention span has a lot of trouble with musicals if I'm not like watching it live. Like even, you know, ones that have been recorded in video. I just don't have the same connection. I actually love watching musicals.

in person, but without that, I just tend to not have that interest. I have heard Epic, the musical, is awesome. You all seem to really love it, and I think that's so great. I'm sure it's really fun. And I'm just, honestly, with stuff like this all the time, because just so much comes out all the time that I can't really keep up. Not least because, unfortunately, it makes mythology a job when I have to kind of, you know, take in this content purely because people want me to talk about it. It just sort of,

I don't know. I think it just, like, fights that ADHD brain in me that more and more, I'm assuming, is also an autism brain that where I just go, like, oh, now I can't because everyone wants me to. So, no, I haven't, but I have heard of it. I hear great things and I'm thrilled that there is just, like, another piece of pop culture that is bringing mythology to, like...

anyone but also particularly younger people and and just like this I mean the whole realm of the internet and how people can uh basically like become their own versions of these ancient Greek bards in the modern world it's just it's incredibly fun um

Again, not a particularly satisfying answer, but it is my answer. And then we'll move on to Bree's question. Bree says, could the interpretation of the spheres on the statue of Artemis of Ephesus as bull balls be tied to the fact that she had trans priests

called megabizoi, like sacrificing one's masculinity as a devotion to her with bulls being a stand-in, like how even the cult of Cybele in Rome had bulls slash rams as substitute sacrifices.

I wish I could answer this question with any kind of, I mean, like, I honestly don't really have a great grounding in the Artemis of Ephesus specifically or the, you know, historical or archaeological theories on that stuff. I'm, you know, so deep into the written sources that I tend to not have the greatest grasp on the physical sources like,

like the Artemis of Ephesus. I do, you know, so to the listeners who don't know this one offhand, you might want to Google it. It's an incredible statue. There are lots of variations of it. So there's all these different versions that look quite similar. But the basic concept of the Artemis of Ephesus is that it's a version of Artemis who she's, you know, got very Eastern qualities. She's coming from modern Turkey. And so she's quite unique.

Not unique, but just different from the more standard Hellenic versions from Greece itself. You know, of course, Ephesus was for a long time a Greek colony. But just generally, she's very different and has those Eastern influences. But what makes her particularly special and what this listener, Bree, is referring to is that the statue is covered in these like round spherical...

That means the same thing. Little, like, protrusions off her body. And they're variously described as all just, you know, hundreds of breasts or, like, Brie says, the bull's balls. Or I had a past guest on the show describe them as beehives, which I also found to be really interesting. Yeah.

I don't know. I don't know about them being connected to the trans priests. I mean, I imagine that connection could be made. I know that the thing about the priests associated with Artemis who were, you know, voluntarily castrated and we now refer to as trans, you know, obviously there's a lot going on there. I won't try to say whether or not, you know,

they were what we would define as trans today, but it's a good term to describe them because the purpose was not, you know, some kind of punishment. The purpose was, um, yeah, to the, to sort of rid themselves of the masculinity and therefore, um, be able to, uh, to, you know, honor Artemis in that way as this goddess who doesn't really fuck with men. Um, and so, yeah, I don't, I don't know about the theories there. Personally, I just, I love, um,

I mean, I love to wonder, I suppose, but I'm just so deep into the stories themselves. I wish I knew. I'm always looking out for more guests who can talk about stuff like that. But that is all to say a very long way of saying I really don't know, but it's a really interesting idea. And so thank you for raising it. All right. This is another question that's come up a lot. And again, which I don't have a great answer to yet.

This one is from Marcelina, who said, I just binged Netflix's Chaos and I wanted to know what Liv's thoughts were on the show. I feel like it was an interesting and refreshing take on the myths.

Admission time. I've only seen the first episode of Chaos. I do want to watch more. I did enjoy it. Over the past few months, I've had trouble watching anything new just because of all of the things that have been going on. Like new stuff stresses me out. It's weird. And yeah, it's a lot. But I do really want to watch it. So I hope to watch it soon. Again, like Epic, honestly, it's one of these things where it's really hard to...

to watch it for fun because of how often I have been asked about it and that's not like a dig. I know you all want to know and I love that you ask me about it because it means that you think of me when you watch this stuff. It just then for me becomes a job to watch a TV show

And then my brain just like fights against it in this very bizarre way that I'm trying that I'm working on. But I did enjoy the first episode. I do want to keep watching more. Honestly, I never thought that show would actually come to light. Like,

over on what used to be Twitter and fun, it would like pop up like once a year for like four or five years. Like I've known about that show that it was like in development in some way in Netflix for like honestly so many years. But and then it just kept like not ever happening. So it was really I was surprised to see that it actually existed. And I definitely do want to watch it. I'm also a little bitter because I did

pitch myself to be, you know, associated with its promotion on Netflix and maybe we could have helped it get renewed. Instead, you know, it just kind of

just popped out there for one season and then they didn't promote it at all anyway streaming is wild but I hope to watch it and I will definitely talk about it I'm thinking maybe I'll talk to Michaela about it or another guest I just need to have it be a discussion because otherwise I just kind of ramble at you guys about shows and stuff anyway I'm going to find a discussion to have about it so thank you for asking

This next question is from Connor, and I am so interested in it. So Connor said,

I specifically wanted to get your thoughts on the apparent conversation in which Juanita states that she is waiting for her Fion to be reincarnated and never mentions loving women in her poems. Despite queer women flocking to the Isle of Lesbos since the late 1800s, is Sappho's absence of queer writing a product of 1920s society, or do you think her queer erasure continues today?

okay this little sappho of greenwich village seems absolutely fascinated fascinating um i'd love to do some more digging in the future um for now no i hadn't i hadn't heard of her i mean yeah i don't i don't want to say too much or too little about like you know a six-year-old girl because i think in cases like that like i mean again i don't i don't know the details but like

That screams to me of someone else saying that she's the reincarnation of Sappho. And also, you know, maybe this is just just me. But if Sappho was going to come back, she wouldn't be going back to the States. But I will say that in terms of generally her queerness and queer erasure, I

I think that it has, I don't think it happens all that often today, or it might just be that I don't see it because obviously I don't go looking for a lot of writing on her by anyone.

Who would probably do that? No, but I do think it does definitely still continue. There is still a debate about whether, you know, she did love women. There are lots, there are scholars who say that like, that she wrote love poems on behalf of men, like about women. I think that is a stretch of,

I think because there were also love poems to men as well as women along with Sappho. I mean minimally I think. But I do I mean the thing about it is that

I mean, defining Sappho as, you know, officially a lesbian today is impossible. I think that it's really important to refer to her as queer and just, and discuss like what we do know about her writing, which is that she definitely, definitely did write love poems for women. And I think that those are some of her most valuable work and absolutely do inspire

I don't believe that those poems were written for men to give to women. I do believe those poems were written by Sappho about a love of women in, you know, explicitly romantic, if not explicitly sexual way. I absolutely say that Sappho was queer at the very least. She was absolutely queer. And of course, what interests me most is that like the word lesbian comes from her, you

island of Lesbos, you know, modern Lesbos. And like that, the fact that that is a fact and just also that like sapphic explicitly now like refers to women who love women and, you know, variations on that, like

It's, I think, absurd to suggest that she was straight. I think it's broadly offensive. So, you know, like, I think it definitely does still happen today. But to me, it's like so...

nonsensical because like we've already established like all of these words based on her as a woman who loved women. Yeah, I don't know. It's so hard. It's so hard to talk about stuff like that as like a real person. I also think that

I mean, Fionn, if I recall, just to go back to that, you know, this idea that this little girl was waiting for her Fionn to be reincarnated. So Fionn, if I'm not mistaken, again, is...

only a name found in Ovid not actually Sappho's surviving writing um in Ovid's uh heroides there is a letter from Sappho to Fion essentially lamenting I forget what happens because I don't

like that I don't like that Herodes and I don't subscribe to it as any kind of source not least because it's about a real person and that's really dark to me but like the basics of it are like that Sappho kills herself over this man and that's why I think it's utter bullshit and I just don't I like to pretend it doesn't exist much like the telegony and so you know I think that it's still tied to this notion of like

Which is why I think, you know, I mean, there's a lot going on in this whole reincarnation idea. But Phion being any kind of love interest, I believe, is almost explicitly, if not entirely, linked to Ovid only. Which means that it's, you know, comfortable 700 or so years after Sappho's actual life.

and therefore like pretty nonsensical but also it absolutely does carry on today just to continue that part of the question like I a couple years ago actually I was in a shop in Athens and

And it's a really great museum reproduction shop with the good ones and not the garbage ones. And I bought a piece that featured Sappho and I chatted, I guess. Or maybe it wasn't I bought that. I also have a Sappho tattoo, which regularly gets commented on in Grace because they see that it's Greek writing and then they get confused because it's an Iolic Greek and it's like...

It's kind of a baffling dialect, particularly to modern Greek. And so anyway, we got to talking about Sappho and then this, you know, I would say a Greek man probably in his late 60s, early 70s recited that bit of the story to me as a fact about Sappho's life, right? That she killed herself for a man. And so I think that that...

I think that that part of the story, that general notion that does come from Ovid absolutely made it into the like quote unquote history of Sappho in a pretty meaningful way. I don't necessarily think that that's...

accurate or or really like particularly historically relevant as a fact about her life um but it absolutely does still exist today so you know i do think i mean it's like everything when it comes to to gay rights broadly and queerness broadly you know that like there's absolutely still a very large subset of people who just like do not

that humans are humans. And so, you know, like that definitely still does exist, especially, you know, aligning with modern Christianity. You know, Greece is an Orthodox country. It's a very Christian country. And so there is still that, you know, Greece only just legalized same-sex marriage. So particularly over there, there's still those ties and that's just a cultural thing. But I do think generally in modern Western and

and and you know english speaking i should say not western english speaking uh academia about her that it's pretty broadly accepted that she you know could be should be read as queer today that was a really long answer to the question but thank you so much

All right, this next one is from Sophia, who says, have you seen the recent movie Seneca? It's so great. It's so grating and great and weird. And the theater scene is so grotesque and mad. Curious to hear your thoughts. I'm just going to pause there to say, no, I have not. I did not know about this movie and now I have to look it up. Thank you.

And then continuing on. Okay. Also, have you read the Dune series? They have all these references to the curse of Atreus and supposedly this far in the future off planet family of the Atreides are descendant from that old curse family. And I think it's super interesting. Um,

So that part I do... I know of that. I haven't read Dune and I actually haven't seen the movies. I really haven't watched a lot of stuff lately. Just everything else is... There's just too much going on in my brain to focus on things. Oh, God. So no, I haven't even seen it. I was actually just talking about it with my friend who I've just moved in with and we're going to watch it. We're going to watch Dune. I do know what the Atreides reference is. Not least because I think like years and years ago I was talking to a friend about it and...

I think you just like mentioned a trities or something. And I was like, well, that's from Greek myth. What are you talking about? And then I had to like figure out, I think I had to Google and was like, Oh, Dune, Dune uses all this stuff. So no, I don't know enough about it. I just know that, um, that there's like a lot of that curse, uh,

nature. As far as I know, I don't know quite how tied it is to actual, to anything in the mythology itself, but you all do know how much I love the curse on the House of Atreus, so I will hopefully have more information about that soon.

Okay, and then Sophia continued on. Another very different question. In your conversation episodes, which I enjoy immensely, you have a lot of experts and scholars who are from the US or Canada or the UK. Obviously, that makes a lot of sense since the podcast is in English, and I imagine the audience is also mostly English speaking, and the contacts to experts also come from that. So this is absolutely not a reproach, but I just wonder...

Is it as I fear and are really a lot of the main global experts on ancient Mediterranean cultures from Anglo countries because universities have the most money and fund the digs, etc.? Or is it just that the English speaking tip of the iceberg is actually and that there is a world out there of thriving Greek, Cypriot, Georgian and Turkish, etc., historians and experts and digs, etc.? Just hoping the world of Mediterranean archaeology is not super colonial and, you know, North American hegemony stuff, etc.

And I'm speaking from the country of Schliemann. So, I mean, thank you. That was a good question. And I'm really glad you asked that. But I can't like really answer it because like I don't I here's the thing. It's like it's one of those things where.

It's like it is still it's even my answer is still so based in like everything that you just mentioned. Right. My circles, my knowledge, my language. So I don't I only speak English. It's a travesty, but it's true. I'm working on the Greek. I mean, and very garbage French.

But, so I don't know, right? So like, I can't, I don't go looking for anything that's not in English. So I don't, I know that there is, I would say, okay, I know for a fact that there is like a very large, very large non-English world of classical history. But I can tell you right now that it's German. So...

So it doesn't change anything about your question. So in terms, though, of the Mediterranean, like, I know that they're definitely, like, Greece specifically, you know, does a lot on their own, but they also work a lot with English-speaking and Western universities and things. So, I mean, your answer has – or your question has a few parts, I would say, that

that from my knowledge, the academic world when it comes to particularly, you know, ancient Greece and Rome is very Western. And I say Western, not English speaking, right? So there is a very large...

world of German academia in this field. And also, it's definitely not just North American, but that doesn't make it better. I mean, you said North American, but I think you just generally mean Western because I would say at least half of my guests are not from

you know, the States or Canada for that matter, but from the UK, right? Like, so it's a lot, there's a lot in the UK. So yes, it's still colonialist as shit.

but just not specific to North America. Yeah, no, it is pretty colonial as far as I know. I also hope that there is a thriving Greek, Cypriot, Georgian, Turkish, etc. field, but I don't know it if it's there because I haven't...

have no real way of determining that. Right. I purposefully do seek out as many non-Western as I can. But it is, you know, a combination of the field and my circles and my language, all of these things that are happening. And also honestly, that like a lot of my guests come to me. And so it's also like where I'm known, unfortunately. And I would love, I would love to work on that more. I hope in the future to be able to definitely reach out to more guests from a broader perspective.

a broader realm of, of this world. Um, for me, for a long time, it was about time, you know, how many I have to record and how much time I actually have to go looking for guests, but we're working on that, um, with expanding the team and expanding Michaela's role and all these different things. So, and, and honestly, this, this is true for any and all of like

forever in this podcast. If anyone has recommendations of experts in this field, particularly experts who, you know, aren't in the, you know, quote unquote West, the field from the West or what have you, but obviously do still need to speak English because...

Yeah. Um, you know, I, I would, I am always welcoming recommendations, uh, for names for me to then go look into or, or reach out to, um, or, you know, if, if someone's listening and they are an expert in the field and are not from North America or the UK, uh, please reach out. Like, I honestly, I would love it so much. It's just a matter of accessibility to buy me, um,

So, you know, that's all to say. Still colonial as shit. But I hope it's that there is at least a field outside of that. And I'm sure it's getting marginally better. But particularly in the Middle East, probably not. Because Western colonialism is toxic and genocidal. Hopefully moving on to something lighter. Yeah.

This is from Yianni. I hope I pronounced that right. Apologies if I failed. Hey Liv, love the show. I'm interested to know if AI technology is or can be used to help conjecture what fragmented plays by Euripides, for example, are most likely about. Have you heard of anyone doing this? They could feed in every piece of writing we have, all the scholarly essays, the titles and context. And I'm just going to stop you right there. Sorry, this is not about you. This is about me. I...

I will never, I mean, fuck AI. Fuck AI. I mean, I know that it has some beneficial uses, but particularly when it comes to the arts and stuff like that, like, I don't think that AI, I think that AI would never get it right because AI is so biased by what it is fed and also what

Like, I mean, from the ancient world, it's like slightly different in terms of the issues about, you know, the arts and humanity. But I feel really strongly that a computer...

can never understand the human condition and the thing about mythology and the plays, the tragedies, is that they are too human for AI. That's how I feel about it. They are too human. And so AI would never get it right. And then we would just have this thing that we...

maybe could be it. Like, I think AI has a use probably in the field in terms of reading damaged texts and making educated guesses as to what, you know, what characters might be damaged or blurry or whatever. And

And I know AI can probably do some good work. I think they're using some things on carbonized scrolls and papyri and things like that, things that we can't access as humans. But when it comes to the words themselves, I don't believe AI can or should do.

be used or relied on in that way. Not least because AI, you know, on top of its, the way it is, is generally devaluing the very nature of humanity and

As creators of art, you know, I think that's one of the most dangerous parts of AI. And then simultaneously, AI is one of the biggest threats to the climate of the last probably decade. Like, the amount of carbon that it takes to run AI is utterly horrifying. Like, it is the next fossil fuel company. Like, it is the next...

thing that's going to just continue to take out like the globe anyway sorry i feel really strongly about ai again this is not about your question i know it is incredibly well intentioned it is about my feelings about ai which is fuck ai

Okay, this next one is from Jasper, who says, Hi, this is about Clytemnestra and the sacrifice of Iphgania, and to a lesser extent, the curse on the house of Atreus. Thank you. What do you think about Clytemnestra also being a daughter of Zeus and how that plays into her and Helen being married into a bloodline literally cursed by Zeus?

do you think Zeus cared and along with that if Clytemnestra does have divine parentage like her sister how do you think Artemis felt demanding a sacrifice of her niece essentially do you think it was Artemis fulfilling the curse of Atreus or making it so Agamemnon had more stake in the war and if the whole point of the war was to get Helen back why sacrifice another female member of the family to do so is it just

What's a daughter to a wife to honor and spoils to glory? I just want to know your thoughts on this whole dynamic because it's making me insane. Thank you. Thank you, Jasper. That's a very fun question. Okay. So the parentage of that family is heavily contested by the sources. There's a lot of back and forth about whose father is who. So Helen is...

almost exclusively defined as a goddess, as the daughter of Zeus. But Clytemnestra never, as far as I know, never is mentioned as that, right? So the basics of the story appear to be that, you know, the idea is that their mother, Leta, was said to have, you know, been assaulted by Zeus in the form of a swan. And then this very same night had sex with her husband, Tendarius, who was the king of Sparta.

And so the idea is that Helen and then I believe it's Castor, but I will always get that wrong. Helen and one of the Dioscuri, the two brothers, Castor and Polydeuces, one of them and Helen, I'm saying this so poorly, one of them and Helen is divine, is the child of Zeus. And that Clytemnestra and the other brother are the children of Tyndareus. So they both have, they have two dads, right? Right.

And now, of course, there's a lot you could read into this. Like, there's a lot, there's a lot in there. But what there isn't really is ever this kind of familial association between the Olympians and those children, really. Like, Helen is the, well, not the children, the Diaspora, yes, but Helen and Clytemnestra, like,

There's minimal acknowledgement that Helen is a child of Zeus in the Iliad. She's not treated like Aeneas, who's a child of Aphrodite, who's saved. Or of Achilles, obviously. She is just... Well, I think it's because she's a she. But essentially, it's not...

it's not so as much about her being, um, divine. And so I don't think that there's really much connection between Clytemnestra and Zeus. And I do, even if there was, I don't think Zeus gave a shit. Um, and I don't think it's because it's Clytemnestra. I don't think it's because it's this cursed family. I just think, I mean, overall, I think that this story just served a different purpose. Um,

And so, you know, the curse... Also, you have to consider, unfortunately, that very annoying thing I remind you all of so often, which is just that, like, all these bits and pieces are often coming from later time periods. And so you can't necessarily...

you know, say that for certain, all the things that we know about this family from after the Homeric tradition, you know, were necessarily known during the Homeric tradition when it was being recorded. And, and so it's just, it's all to say, it's really hard to say, but I would say that, that there really isn't much argument to be made of a familial connection between Artemis and Iphigenia and,

But at the same time, you know, when you're looking at those things through the plays, like you can see that, you know, there's lots of different kind of variations. And I don't really think that it's about Artemis having any kind of problem with Iphigenia. It's really just, I don't know, I think it's really more about to tell the story of, you know, this father doing this terrible thing and, you know, the ramifications on the family. And, you know, it's,

It's that sort of there's just a lot kind of going on. But it's like the sacrifice really is. I mean, it's a tough it's tough one to place in the broader idea of the story and kind of what I wish I could say more. But also, I'll be honest with you guys. It has been a wild few weeks and I have not had to be.

you know, use my brain to be smart in a while. And I'm still trying to get it back because there's been a wild few weeks. Like, it's going to be good. But anyway, I'm struggling. I'm struggling with the brain. But thank you for that question. It's really interesting. And I think that's why I'm struggling so much because there's just too many things to say. Yeah.

For many of us, the holiday season means more travel, more shopping, more time online, and more of your personal information in more places you can't control. It only takes one innocent mistake, even if it's not your mistake, to expose you to identity theft. Not to worry. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points every second and alerts you to threats you could miss by yourself.

even if you keep an eye on your bank and credit card statements. If your identity is stolen, your own U.S.-based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed. The last thing you want to do this holiday season is face drained accounts, fraudulent loans, or other financial losses from identity theft,

This is it.

Your moment. This is your time to make your comeback with Purdue Global. When you come back with a Purdue Global degree, you create opportunity for yourself, your family, and your future. It's a degree you can be proud of, a degree that employers will trust and respect. Purdue Global offers working adults like you over 175 flexible degree programs to meet your specific career goals.

goals. These include associate, bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees and certificates. Purdue Global degree programs range from nursing to business to communication and more. Whatever your interest, we have the degree that will move you forward. You

You have the knowledge. You have the experience. Now it's time to get credit for the work you've done and earn the recognition you deserve with Purdue Global, Purdue's online university for working adults. You know you're worth it. We do too. So don't wait another second to get the degree that will take your career to the next level. Start your comeback today at purdueglobal.edu.

All right. I have a few quick questions from McKenna. We're going to go through these. I like them. First, what happens to Hermione? That's a great question. So Hermione is the daughter of Helen and Menelaus, and she is left behind in Sparta when Helen is taken to Troy. There is not a ton of mentions of Hermione. She does appear later. There are references to her marrying, I believe, both Hermione

neoptolemus who's the son of achilles and orestes i feel like there's a version where uh she marries neoptolemus and then neoptolemus dies yeah because that's in a play i do believe it's in um the andromache because he brings back andromache wife of hector as a slave um when he goes back to greece and then he marries hermione and then there's this kind of whole dynamic there um

And then I believe he is killed. And then Hermione marries Orestes. But these are only in different variations. So all of this stuff is really coming from plays. And I think that's really important.

So we can't necessarily say that it was the, you know, quote unquote canon version, according to the ancient Greeks themselves. Ultimately, Hermione does play this like generally small role. She's kind of important just that as the daughter, as the fact that Helen did have this daughter before she went to Troy. And then otherwise mostly appears in these plays where Hermione,

we can't really say that they were attempting to tell a story that featured, you know, their quote unquote true Hermione. What then instead these plays are telling the story of is like, you know, the effects of the war, the, the people who were kind of taken after the war, the people who did the taking, what that looks like. Um,

And then later Hermione is serving in this role of kind of looking at the curse of this family and Orestes, who is, I believe it's that, you know, he is eventually kind of redeemed for the killing of Clytemnestra. And then he's allowed to marry Hermione, things like that. So she appears in a handful of different plays, but there's so much...

There's so many different things happening in each of those plays and they're each telling so many different versions of a story that it's tough to say too much about Hermione. But what I can say is really cute is that there is still a town today in that area of the generally of the Argyllid that is just still called Hermione.

I believe the Greek pronunciation would be different than that, but essentially there is a town to this day named for her. So she may not survive in any kind of, you know, original organic kind of mythology, but she definitely survives just in terms of her name, you know, living on over there, which is lovely. The next one is, again, from McKenna. What plays have the charities and which one marries Hephaestus? I don't...

know of any plays offhand that feature the charities. They're not, they don't really appear too much in, uh, in the myths themselves outside of sort of just being these attendants of Aphrodite. Um, and that, that is what they are. They, you know, they're the attendants of Aphrodite, um,

So I know they appear in, you know, the Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite when she goes off and makes a baby with Anchises and things like that. I don't know of any plays, but I can tell you that it is Charis. Charis Aglaya, I believe. One or both of those are her names. She's the one who is married to Hephaestus in the Iliad, whereas in the Odyssey...

He's married to Aphrodite, I believe. You know, so there are these variations, these kind of really contradictory ideas about even who Hephaestus is married to. Is it Aphrodite? Is it one of the charities? And then what else kind of do they serve? But they don't really appear, as far as I know, in any kind of like a detailed way. They're very much like those

There's so, so, so many gods and goddesses who really just serve a purpose in terms of like what they represent. You know, they're also known as the graces. And so they were just these attendants of Aphrodite who, you know, were very beautiful and graceful and, you know, all of those different things. But they don't really have character based stories as far as I'm aware of.

Yeah. Okay. The next one from McKenna. What were the Greeks views on death and did this affect the views of Hades? Yeah.

you know, it's hard to say, you know, what their idea of views on death was with any kind of broad idea. We're talking about a thousand years, right? Or so of time period that this is spanning. But the, I think the most important thing that I take away from, you know, all that I've learned about the death and the underworld is that they weren't afraid of death and the underworld, like the, the,

like the Christian idea would, you know, has kind of influenced our culture today. There was no hell, right? The underworld was hot and fiery, but it wasn't hot and fiery to be this like eternal punishment. It was hot and fiery because it was the underworld and they knew that the earth was hot and fiery inside. And so that's just, it was really just to show an understanding of,

like generally earth science. And, and, and that's similarly linked to, you know, their views on Hades, which is that he wasn't, they weren't afraid of,

of Hades as a concept because they weren't necessarily afraid of death. I mean, I don't think they were, you know, they didn't welcome it, but I don't think there wasn't this fear that like after you died, you'd be punished, right? There's only this handful of stories of people who have shitty afterlives and they do really, really, really terrible things. And otherwise it's just kind of you're there and

You know, it's not good. It's not bad. You know, there is a notion of the Elysium and the things, everything to do with the Eleusinian mysteries that comes in as a way to like ensure really good afterlife. But there really wasn't this idea of like a bad. Hades is just the world of the dead. It's neutral, I would say. And again, like the idea of the underworld is also neutral.

I would say not just neutral, but really just tied to science and geology, I guess. Because, you know, again, it's hot and fiery. It's just generally representative of what is inside of the Earth. But also that comes along with, you know, Hades is particularly under the cult name of Pluto is the god of wealth. And

He's the god of wealth because there are riches and wealth that comes from the earth, right?

precious gems and and metals and all of these things so they really aligned they aligned him with that too so like objectively like good things and so it was just the nature of like what's in the earth and then this god is in the earth because after you die you go into the earth that's kind of the notion um and so i think it's it's pretty neutral and but i find incredibly interesting

Alright, this next one is from Jazz, who says, How do you feel about the Odysseus is a victim of sexual assault by Circe and Calypso? I can't really see the argument for Circe because if I remember correctly, his men had to drag him away from her. And as for Calypso, I thought he willingly slept with her and then was like, I want to leave and she wouldn't let him.

But wasn't she also trapped on the island? If she can't leave, how could she help him leave? I'm on the fence because I can see how you can interpret it like that, but I can also see how this is taking away from his agency in order for people to moralize him as this dude who just loves his wife and is a victim of fate. I'd really like to know your thoughts. Thank you. That is a fun question.

So, yeah, I feel similarly to you, I would say. When it comes to Cersei, I don't see how that argument holds really any water. Just because, yeah, like you said, I mean...

like he does go to Cersei to save his men. Um, but like, she, she doesn't even have to like coerce him. Like he's like, give me back my men. And she's like, okay. Um, you know, do you want to have sex with me? And he's like, yeah. And then like, she doesn't even like, he doesn't even get her to do it until after they're done. Like it's a whole thing. If I recall. Um,

So and then he stays with her for a year and he's like pretty happy about it. And then after a year, he's like, oh, I guess I should keep going. Like, I definitely don't see how it stands with Cersei. And Calypso, like, yeah, the thing about the whole Calypso saga is that we get like very little information about it. Right. Like it's it's how we open. But like we and we know he's been there for I think it's like seven years or something.

um he's been there a long time and we know he wants to leave but like that is that's kind of about all we get i think the general idea is that yeah like he rolled up originally and was like pretty happy to be with her and then after wanted to leave and so like i think certainly you could argue that like he revoked his consent um but like there really isn't any kind of the thing about it is that like

I don't know. It's really hard to say just based on kind of what we have. But I do think that, like, based on the rest of what we have about Odysseus, like, I don't think that... I don't really think that it is a particularly, you know, valid argument just because of everything else in his character suggests that, like, he would have been fine with that. Yeah.

I don't know. It is an interesting question, but I generally do see... Yeah, I see more of it as you see it, which is that he just generally did some pretty awful stuff. And people do love to say that he's just this guy who wanted to go home to his wife, but that's not really what we get. He wanted to go home to Ithaca. He did want to go home to his wife, but...

He was pretty happy to just do what he wanted to do while he was away from his wife. You know, like I don't, I don't really think that we necessarily need to give him much sympathy for that. Yeah. He made a lot of mistakes too. Like, well, you know, he's my main man, but he's also a messy bitch. Okay. This next question comes from, and this is what they just typed into the name field. I love you. I hate Jason with a passion.

Thank you. I hate Jason with a passion. Okay, they said, I live. I love your content and how you don't shy away from highlighting the feminist and queer themes all while exposing the patriarchal nature found in many myths. Thank you. Me too. I would love to learn more about Atalanta and the sapphic undertones found in Artemis during her and her quote roommate nymphs. So...

Atalanta, I would recommend you listen to the two episodes I've done on her. I did that a couple years ago. I just recently replayed one of them, but you can listen to the other one as well because I kind of split her into two. Because Atalanta's really interesting. She appears in all these different ways. Um...

But like, I mean, we don't have a ton that survives on her in detail from before Pseudo-Apollodorus, who is like an incredibly late figure writing. So we know that she was there. We know that she was important. We know that she, you know, was involved with the Caledonian boar hunt. Sometimes the, the, the,

quest for the golden fleece um there's you know she's very much she's very much around in the earliest sources but we just don't know too much more about her in terms of any kind of character um she she was there she was notable but unfortunately just like like not a lot survives um

But I would recommend you listen to those episodes because I dug as deep as I could back then into those. And so they're a good starting point for learning about her in the mythological tradition. As for Artemis and the sapphic undertones, the problem is like, I think that they, you can read them as there, but the problem is that the sources are

that survive and like just what survives doesn't really give us anything explicit. Primarily because what we're looking at is the stuff recorded by the men. Right. And, and to them, Artemis was this like baffling woman who just must've been a virgin because she never had any men around. And so I think that like,

If you want to, you can then inherently read that there may be being sapphic undertones in those decisions because, yeah, she only surrounded herself with nymphs. But you could also read asexuality into that and that these are just her friends and she just didn't like men. Like, I don't consider myself to be particularly queer as much as I wish I was and feel like I must be part of this community in some way. But I don't like men, you know? So I surround myself with women, but

It's not in a sexy way. It's just in a, I don't really like metal that much kind of way. Not all of you, but you know, just statistically. Um,

And so, you know, I do think that you can read those undertones into it if you want. I think that that's an absolutely valid read. I don't necessarily, though, think that the explicit stuff that survives gives us that inherently. I think it's more about interpretation. But again, you know, not because it wasn't there, but because it doesn't survive in the sources. Because the sources were dudes who, again, and I've said this on the show 10,000 times now, but I'm fairly convinced that

The sources, as you know, generally as they survive, were broadly by men who did not consider it to be a literal physical possibility for women to have sexual relationships with each other. So I think that they were probably doing it all over the place, having a ball about

But the dudes were just like, well, those two ladies are hanging out. Like they were always just like, Artemis is always with her noobs. How nice for her. Like there's just ladies and gosh, she must've been a virgin because there were never any men around, you know? And so that's what survives. So that's what we can, you know, in terms of my, my knowledge of the, the physical, the text sources, like that's what we can say. But again, yeah.

I think you can pretty easily read into that if you so choose. And I do. I believe that there's absolutely, at least particularly for the women in the ancient world, that they would have read sapphic undertones into Artemis's decisions and all of her nymph ladies. All right. We're going to do, I think, probably just one more. This is long.

Okay, this is from Eileen, but it's spelled not like that, and I love it. How do we know that Greek mythology was the ancient Greeks' actual religion and not just a story like Lord of the Rings is, which has a lot of world-making, gods, etc.? Can't all the statues, shrines, etc. be created by, quote, fans, like how we created Comic-Cons for Harry Potter and Harry Potter theme parks, etc.? I think that...

Uh, I think that both of those things can be true at once. Like, um, the mythology, and for one, I'm not saying that mythology, mythology broadly was their religion. I don't think that those two words shouldn't be combined. Mythology is a different thing from religion. That said, it was their religion to worship these gods. But mythology is the story of these gods, and that is not inherently the religion.

That becomes difficult because the Bible is absolutely mythology and it's also the religion, but that's Christians made that that way. Sorry. I'm not actually sorry. No, but it's that like we do know for a fact that they worshipped these gods and

um and they worshipped at these shrines and we know that because of physical evidence of like all of these different forms of what we know of as worship um the pouring of libations and the sacrificing of animals and the burning and all of these things that left these physical remains that we know they worshipped they did these things and those things that you know all these different forms of worship and sacrifice that they did at these shrines at these temples all of these things you know that you're saying you know

how do we know they couldn't be created by, quote, fans? We know they did all of those things at those places, and so we consider it religion. We know that Christianity, particularly, let's say, Catholicism, do a bunch of different things like that. They do all these religious traditions and worship and shrines and all of that in these places of worship, and so we call that religion. Okay? But I don't actually think that there is anything inherently different about...

what what you define of as fandom with say harry potter and i i say that with a cringe um because i you know because jk rowling is a piece of human garbage but i i it is a better representation of of the point i'm going to try to make so we're going to continue on with harry potter because um okay so yeah we go let's say the the theme park as like a stand-in for the acropolis the the parthenon right the parthenon is a place of worship

I mean, I think that the Harry Potter theme park could be defined as a place of worship, but the worship is of this thing, you know, a book, much like a Bible, and that the practices associated with the worship also just, I mean, to me, it's a worship of capitalism simultaneously, but it doesn't

How I don't know. I don't know how religious my audience is or just what lines of blasphemy I'm walking right now. And I'm not really I don't really care because like I don't I don't inherently see how that's different. Yeah. Like it ultimately is still stories that are being read.

that people are finding deep life meanings in, that they are performing actions that are traditionally meant to show appreciation for the characters, and

That they are gathering together to worship these characters from a text source that has come to them in a meaningful way that speaks to them internally, that they can find purpose and value in. And I think all of those things, all of that description that I just made can be applied to

the gods and the temples in ancient Greece, they can be applied to the earliest forms of Christianity and even Christianity today, let alone other modern religions. And I think that they can be applied to Harry Potter world. It's just, they just come in different forms, but ultimately at their core are serving very similar, if not the same purposes.

And also J.K. Rowling is a piece of human garbage and trans rights are human rights and trans people deserve all of the love and affection in the world because they are human just like everyone else. Okay.

That feels like a fun way to end it. Honestly, listeners, this episode, I think it's gone on enough. This is, again, me trying to get back into this realm. It's so interesting trying to navigate brains, brain chemistry, and all the different ways in which my ADHD and suspected autism are just, I don't even know, moving and changing and thriving and driving me slowly insane. But in a good way?

Anyway, I really do hope to be back to regularly scheduled programming and be writing scripts and stuff as soon as possible. I'm just trying to get settled in like this in basically entirely new life in so many different ways. I'm very excited about all of it. But in the meantime, it's like trying to make brain think words that are smart and write them down in ways that sound not bad. That's just it's coming slowly. We'll get there. It's a slow time of year.

I will be back on Friday with more answers to your questions because you've all given me so many. I've barely scratched the surface. I do want to get to, I think maybe I'll just do like a little segment maybe once a month where I answer a question or two. I don't know. I'm going to do more. I'm going to do more. Thank you all so much for coming along with the ride and for asking these questions and just listening for all this time. I'm really excited about what is to come.

So many ideas, so many plans and schemes. And Let's Talk About Myths, Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Penguish is the Hermes to my Olympians, the assistant producer who just, gods, does so many awesome things. We love Michaela.

Select music in this episode was by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the iHeart Podcast Network. Listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Sign up for the newsletter that I didn't do in November because, again, there's too many things going on. I just can't even possibly express to you how many weeks passed while I just simply blinked. But we'll get back into it. So much is coming as soon as I can get my head around existing in this new space.

I am Liv and I love this shit so much. At Amika Insurance, we know it's more than a life policy. It's about the promise and the responsibility that comes with being a new parent. Being there day and night and building a plan for tomorrow, today. For the ones you'll always look out for. Trust Amika Life Insurance. Amika. Amika.

Empathy is our best policy. She's seen Encanto more times than she can count. And she can count to ten. She mentioned Mirabel in every conversation. But the moment she actually met Mirabel, she was speechless. That's pura magia. Find yours at Walt Disney World Resort.

Five years, ten months, and two days. That's how long it took to grow the 38 inches to ride on Cali River Rapids. But the moment the wait finally ended, that was Pura Magia. Discover it at Walt Disney World Resort.

Welcome to the Criminalia Podcast. I'm Maria Tremarcki. And I'm Holly Frey. Together, we invite you into the dark and winding corridors of historical true crime. Each season, we explore a new theme from poisoners to art thieves. We uncover the secrets of history's most interesting figures, from legal injustices to body snatching. And tune in at the end of each episode as we indulge in cocktails and mocktails inspired by each story.

Listen to Criminalia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. ♪