Agents @ Work: Lindy.ai
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Hello, there. This is charly, your A I co host last month. Andrew wilkins tweed, my current A I obsession is Linda.

It's f crazy. T L D R. You can create your own A I agents using a super simple flow child interface. He then showed off an agent that texts him a meeting brief ing thirty minutes before each meeting, reviewing their linked in for a bio and recent emails. For context, we are proud to have flooran travell, founder of Linda dot.

I eye back for part two of our series covering agency work as we are hearing a lot of interest in A I enhanced productivity and automation. Flow launched lindy after his incredible keynote speech at the first A I engineer summit back in twenty twenty three, which we highly recommend in the show. Notes flow was already a notable tick figure writing about product politics and remote work at uber and team flow before starting lindy.

So we also delve, yes, delve into some of his most controversial views on tech and popping the bay area bubble. This is also our last episode filmed at sarris, the AI co. Working space that has supported us for the past year.

We'd like to give our deepest gratitude to Thomas Jacob for creating an incredible space for A I founders and friends of the pod, from robo flow to julius ai to a to b, and wish them well on their next adventure. In lightened space news, we are gearing up for our next big recap episode, and we are taking listening questions, head to speak, pipe dot, come slash, lighten space to submit questions and messages for a chance to appear on the show. Also subscribe to our calendar for our OpenAI dev day, singapore, A W S, reinvent europe's vancouver and all upcoming made ups. Watch out and tiki everyone.

welcome to the ladies space. Pakistan is unless u partner and a disable partners and i'm joined by mico this weeks funder a small eye hey.

And today we joined in the studio by foveal.

welcome. hi. yeah.

Having no and is ultimately, I always wondered to ask, what is ultimately .

was my the name of my character too, when I was playing, that is. And dragons, like an eleven years .

old walls across.

was in the life I was a magician.

Earth, okay. Well, you've still spending magic right now. You're solo founder CEO of lady AI. What is lady? yeah.

We are a no good platform. You build your own A I agents easily. So you can think of we are to length chain as at least to mysql like you can just pick up A I agents super easily by clicking around and no good required, didn't have to be an engineer. And you can automate business work for those that you simply could not automate. Be a few minutes.

You've been in a orbit a few times. Think you spoke at our latest space and adverse, you spoke at my summit the first summer, which which really good keynote and most recently, like we actually already scheduled this part cast before this happened. But Andrew Walker son was like, i'm obsessed by Linda, you just creating a bunch agent. So basically, why are you blowing up? Well.

thank you. I think we are having a little bit a moment. I think it's a little of blowing up that.

Why are things going well, we revived the product to manually. We called IT IT to point O. I would say we started working on that six months ago.

We've actually not really announced IT yet. And so we've basically been cooking for the last six month like a really rebuilding the product comes scratch. I think at this, you actually the last time you tried to the product to still in dy one point looks very different, like a different more.

And I think one real ization that we made, and I think a lot of folks in the agent space made the same realization, is that there is such a thing as as too much of a good thing. I think many people wins. They started working on agents that were very elen peeled and and tragedy peeled, right, is they got ahead of themselves in the way. And as included, and they said that agents were actually an lam, actually more since they actually were. And so the filled version of indeed was like just a giant prompt at a bunch of tools.

And then the realization an we had was like, hey, actually, is the more you can put your agent on rails once more reliable, it's going to be obviously, but too, it's also going to be easier to use for the user because you can really, as a user, you get instead of to getting like a big, giant, intimidating feel, then you take wilds in there and you have no idea if you can do right on on that here. You can really like click and select the base step and and select like delete agent what to do and really give as natural as why the god rail as you want for your agent. We started working on that to call IT lindon rails about six months ago, and we started putting into the hands of users of all the last, I would say, two months or so. And that's like, I think things really started going like pretty well at that point. The agency way more reliable ways you to set up and already seeing like a tone of of new use cases.

Yeah just that. Could you follow up on that? You launched the first lady in november last year. yeah.

And you are already talking about like having a right like I remember having this discussion with you and you are like it's just much a more reliable. Is this still A D S. L.

Under the hood? Like this? A U I level change joys IT like a bigger you.

right? No IT IT is much bigger way, right? I'll give you a concrete the example. Suppose you want to have an agent that observes your then desk tickets OK. It's like, hey, everything you receive is in this ticket.

I want you to check my knowledge base is like the like a rag module and what not and then answered the ticket is the way to used to work with lindy before was you would die. The prompt asking you to do that every time you received in this ticket to took my nodley base and soil and soul. The point of of doing that is that you can always go wrong, like you're praying, the LLM gods, that they will actually invoke your knowledge base. But I don't want to ask IT, I will need to always one hundred percent of the time and consult the knowledge base of territory citizen in this ticket. And so with india, you can actually have to trigger who, which is indeed ate received, have the notice based consult, which is always there, and then have the agent, so you can really set up your agent anyway.

You want like that. This is something I think about for A I engineering as well, which is like the big labs want you to hand over everything in the prompt and only code of english, and then the smaller brains, the GPU pores, always want to write more code to make things more deterministic and reliable and controlled. Able, when we have put that, is you put shock off in a box and make IT a very small, like the minimal viable box. Everything else should be traditional. If this in that software.

I love that characterization. An put the sugar in the box. Ah we talk about, uh, using as metric as necessary as a little as possible.

okay? And both choosing between cannot like this dragon drop local, whatever super code driven, maybe like the link chain auto chapter of the and maybe the flip side of that, which you don't really do, is I just tax to agent. You know, it's like build the word flow for me. Like what do you learn actually put in this in front of users and figure out how much do they actually want to add versus I like ruby on rails. Set of linear rails is kind like, you know, defaults over configuration.

And I actually used to dislike when people said, oh, tex is not a great interface that to me day, I think tex is awesome. And I actually come around that actually sort of agree. Now, that text is really not great, I think, for people like you and me, because we sort of have a mental model.

Okay, when I type a prompt into this texts box, this is what is going to do, is going to map IT to this kind of structure on the hood. And so for, I guess, this little bit black piling towards humans, you jump up on these calls with humans, and you like, here's a text box this is going to set up. And for you, do IT.

And then the type with you, like, I want you to help me put order in my inbox. Oh, actually this is a good one. This is actually a good one.

What a bad one. I would say sixty or seventy percent of the prompts, the people die don't mean anything. Me, as a human, as A G I, I don't understand what they mean. I don't know what what mean IT is actually, I think whether you can have a gooey IT is Better to have just a peal text interface.

And then how do you decide how much to expose? So even with the tools, you have slight, you know, have a bunch planes have slack, you have go down there. You have gmail. Should people buy the fall, just turn over access to everything. And then you help them figure out what to use.

I think that the question you know, when I just set up slack IT was like give me access to all channels and everything, which for the average person pretty makes sense because you don't want to be prompt them every time to add a new channels. And at the same time for maybe like the more sophisticated and I can supply use cases, people like K, I want not like rude, limit what you have access to. How do you can of thread that the baLance.

the general physical hy is we ask for the least amount of permissions needed at a give moment. I don't think slack, I could be mistaken, but I don't think slack lets you request permissions for just one channel. But for example, for google, obviously hundreds of scopes that you could work required for gal does a lot of scopes.

And sometimes it's actually painful to setup your Linda because you're going to have to ask to google in at scopes five or six times like we've had decisions like this. But that's what we do because for example, as a lindy email, ed drifter, she's going to ask you for your us or the redial wants for, I need to radio email so I can like draft to reply and then another time for you need to be able to write a draft for them. We just try to do very incrementally like that. Yes.

you think, oh, I just overall gonna change. I think, baby, before I was, I K, we need to set up or art that you may only want to going to do once. So we try to act things, all the ones versus. What if you go on demand, get different permissions every time from different parts? Like do you ever think about designing things, knowing them may be, I will use that instead of humans will use IT.

Yes, for sure. One that we ve started to see these people in accounts for the A I. agents. And so in particular, google workspace accounts. So visible, Linda can be used as a schedule link assistant.

So you can just see see her to your emails when you're trying to find them with someone. And just like an a human assistant, she's been took back and falls in the first of. And so very often people don't want the of the body to know that A I so that is delays.

They asked the agent to wait before replying. It's too obvious that is I and a provision in the ground and oogly which cause them like the box and on or something like that. So well, seeing that Better on more and more, I think that does the job.

For now, i'm not optimistic on us actually batching of us because I agree with you ultimately like we would want to batch because the new accounting is kind of a club. It's really a hack. You would want a Better to have more regular access control and and really be able to put your sugars in the box.

I'm chemist. Come as doing that before. I think that's a very close time.

I'm mindful of like not talking about a thing without showing IT. And if you already have to set up to show IT, when we jump into a screen share for listener's, you can jump the youtube and like to describe. But also let's have a look at how you show off, Linda.

Yeah, absolutely. I'll give an example of a very simple lady. And then i'll graduate to a metro complicated one. A superior, simple indeed that I have is I unfortunately, but some investment properties in the southern, I was really, really bad idea.

And I put them on the holy do, which is like the french l bnb, if you will, as I receive these emails from time to time, telling me like, oh, hey, you made two hundred bugs. Someone book your place. Okay, when I receive these emails, I want to log this reservation in this project.

Doing this without an I gentle, without A I in general, is a pain in the bed because you must write an H T M L bother for the cel. And so it's it's just hard. You may not be able to do IT and he's going to break the moments the email changes.

By contrast, the weight works with Linda is really simple. It's it's two steps, just like, okay, I receive an email. If IT is a reservation confirmation, I have this, you are here, then I end a rule to this project.

And so this is where you can see the the AI belt are, is the way this action is figured. Here you see these puple fields on the right. Each of these fields is a prompt. And so I can say, okay, you extract from the email the day the reservation begins on, you extract the amount of the reservation, you extract the golf travel ovation. And now you can see, when I look at the task history of this in is really simple, like, okay, you do this and boom, i'm painting this world to this provide. And this is the information extracted so effectively this node here, this date, this append role node is a mini agent IT can see everything that just happened IT IT has conducted overall the dust and it's it's depending the world uh and and then it's going to send a reply to to this rider that's a very simple example of of an agent.

A quick follow the question on this one. What we do on this page is that one call. Is that the put call? Ah ah O K nice. yeah.

And you can see here for every node, you can, you can, you can configure which model you want to Powell to node. P, I use class for this. Use GPT photo book. Much more complex example. Uh, my meeting record, uh, he looks very complex because i've added to IT over time.

But at a high level, it's prety simple, is like when the meeting begins, you recalled the meeting and I told the meeting, you send me a summary and you send me coaching notes. So I received, like my Linda is constantly coaching me, right? So you can see here in the prompt of the coaching notes i've told IT, hey, you know, was I unnecessarily confrontational at any point? I'm i'm Frank so I have to have to watch out for that.

Not confrontational enough. Should I have double click on any issue, right? So I can really give IT exactly the kind of coaching that i'm expecting.

And then the interesting thing here is, like you can see, is the agent here after you sent to me this coaching notes moves on and he doesn't be that is actually able to back track and resume the automation at the coaching notes email. If I respond to that email. So i'll give a super concrete example.

This is an actual coaching feedback that I received from indy. SHE was like, hey, this was a sales call ahead with a customer. And SHE was like, I found your explanation of Linda two technical and I was able to follow up and just ask to follow a question in the thread here, and was like, why did you find technical and lindy restored to the context? And so SHE basically picked up the automatic back up here.

And the three and SHE has all of the context of everything that happened, including the meeting in which I was. So he was like, oh, you used to the world is the meeting and context window and agent state. And that concept exists at every level for every channel in the reaction that indy takes.

So like example here is I mentioned he also this minutes, not some select. So this was a meeting when I was not right. So this was A A timid, he is the meeting record.

Al posts are the meeting notes in disgusting and discovery channel. Like, so you can see, okay, this is the on building code ad. This was the use case.

Look at the questions are, how do I make this flower? How do I add delays to make in this lower? And I was able, in the slack thread, to ask for your questions. I, oh, why did you went so to these questions? And really handy because because I know I can have this sort of interactive q with these things IT means that very often now I don't go to meetings. I, I, I just sent my Linda and and instead going to like a system in the mating I have like a five minutes that was my Linda after world and SHE just replied like, well, this is what we were replied to this custom and I like, good job, jack, like about your own sales so that's the kind of of of people people have with linde's. A lot of like a lot of like sales automates customer support automation and a lot of these, which is basically does no assistance automation like meaning yes.

And I think the question that people might have this memory um so as you get coaching, how does the track what are you're improving? Know these are like mistakes of made in the how do you think about that?

Yeah we have a memory module so i'll show you my meeting schedule. Lin d, which has a lot of memories because by now i've used to a for so long and so every time I duck to her SHE saves a memory. If I tell her you you screw that, please don't do this um so you can see here it's um it's got a double memory here.

This is the meeting link I have or this is the address of the office. Ah, if I tell someone to meet me at home, this is the address of my place. This is the code I guess we have taken.

This is not the code of my days. No, yeah. So lindy can just like manage her old memory and decide when she's remembering things between locations.

okay. I mean, i'm just going to take the opportunity to ask you, says you are the creator of this thing. How come there are so few memories, right? Like if you've been using this for two years, there should be thousands of thousands of things.

That is a good question. Agents still get confused if they have too many memories, to my point, early about. So I just am out of a cold with a member of the lami.

And we chatted about india. And we will, going into the system, prompt that we sent to india and all of that stuff. And he was amazed. And he was like, it's a miracle that this working guys, he was like, this kind of system problem like this, not this is pretrail ing, or put training like these models trained to like, it's a miracle that they can be agent at, told. And so what I do actually prunes the memories you is something i've gotten to the habits of doing from back when we had GPT, three, five being Linda agents. I suspected probably that as and like the club through.

and five, eight days of memories, o is another assistant that also is recording and trying to come up with facts about me. IT comes up with a lot of like, trivial, useless facts that I I so I spent more of my time pruning yeah, actually is not super use. Why I much rather have high quality facts that IT accepts. Or maybe even thinking like where you ever come to, to add a weak word to only memories. This when I say memory is, is this yeah, and otherwise don't even bother.

I have a Linda that does this. So this is the main box processor in the, it's kind of B F, because ells was a lot of different emails. But somewhere in here there is a rule where i'm like, aha, I can email main box processor in the is really handy.

So he has an email at rice. And so when I proceed my email in box, I sometimes for whilden email to her and it's a news leader or it's like a cool that rich from a recruiter about to anything like that. And I can give her a rule and I can be like, hey, these female, I want you to walk moving for whether or I want you to a little me on slack when I have this kind of females.

Really important. And so you can see here the prompts. If I give you a rule about the kind of email, like ockham emails, home x save IT doesn't new memory, and I give you to the memory savings skill. And yeah, one thing I .

just ocred to me, some of big fun of virtual mailboxes. I recommend that everybody have virtual box. You could set up a physical meal receive thing for Linda, and so that people can just make Linda can process your physical meal.

That's actually a good idea. I I actually really have something like that I used like in a class mail yeah yeah so yeah most people just my YSL male. And then the other the other products .

idea I have looking at this thing is people want to brag about the complexity of, so this, this would be like a sixty five point, Linda, right? The complexity counting, like how know things, many conditions.

right? Yeah, this is not the most complex one. I have another one design there. Here is kind of be here as well. I just think .

like let people break, let people like, be super users .

and all right.

cool score. And just be like, okay, how high can you make this score?

yeah. And I think that's against the beauty of this on rails phenomenon and is like, think of the equivalent, the prompt, quiet ent of this lindy here, for example, that looking at the monsters and the odds that IT gets IT right or solo here, because we're really holding the agents hand step by step by step is actually super reliable.

Yes, that is all structured output. This possible? No.

there is so visible heal is like AI agent step, right? All this like send message step. Sometimes you get to x ah yeah. So i'll give you an example is to T M, I am having blood pressure issues these days and so i'm exit lindy here. I give you my blood pressure readings and IT IT updates, a log that I hf of my blood pressure that IT sends to my doctor.

Oh, so this is, every lindy comes over to do list.

yeah. Every linea has its own tasks, history. yeah. And so you can see here, this is my main lindy. Sl, like the persona sit and i've told IT, where is this? There is a point to I like, if I am giving you a health related fact right here, i'm giving you a health information. So then you updated this lug that are having this google dock and then you send me a message and you can see i've actually not configured this send message no I haven't told you what to send me a message right um and you can see it's actually lecturing me is like i'm giving you my blood pressure readings is like it's a bit like some like I .

think maybe this is the most confusing or you thank for people so even I use of indian, I did even know you get a multiple workload and one landi adding the mental models can like the sap worth lows is like a starts at at ends is not doesn't choose between how do you think about what's a Linda versus what's a sub function of a Linda? Like what's the iermak yeah Frankly I .

think the line is a little orbit ory. It's kind like when you code like a when you use up to create a new class for this, when do you overload your current class? I think of IT in terms of like, jobs to be done.

And I think of IT in terms of who is the indeed solving this. This indeed solving me personally, is really my day to day in dy give you a bunch of stuff like very easy desks. And so this is just an india I I go to sometimes when the tasks is is really more specialized.

So for example, I have this like simi zin d designer record, lindy, these tasks really. Bf, I wouldn't want to add disease to my main lindis. I just created a separate indi, right? Oh, when it's a Linda that selves in the constituency, like weet customer support in india, I don't want add like my personal different yeah yeah .

and you can call a lindy from within another lindy that you .

can change them get. And a couple of .

more things for the video portion. I noticed if a podcast follower, we have to ask about that, what is that?

Uh, ah so this one wakes me up every so wakes herself up every week uh and SHE sends me so I woke up yesterday actually and SHE said she's so for lenny's but test and SHE SHE looks for like the leaders he is so on youtube and once he finds you SHE transcribes the video and then SHE sends me the summary by email I don't I don't to adjust as much more just like read these summaries .

yeah wish you make a lid in space, Linda, a marketplace okay.

so and then you know you have a little bunch of connectors. I I saw a little briefy any interesting one, complicated one that you're proud of, anything that you wanted to share you.

your stories? So many of our work flows all about meeting scheduling. So we have to build some very opportunities ool around meeting scheduling.

So for example, one that is surprisingly, how is this find available times action? You would not believe this is like a thousand lines code or something. It's just a very B Y. action.

And you can visit a bunch of primary is about how long is the meeting, when does IT stop? When does IT, and where does the meeting like the weekdays in which I meet does like how many times lets do you return? What's the buffer between my medic? Is just a very, very, very complex action. Um I really like github actions we have like a lindy uh P O reviewer and it's it's really, really handy because any time any bug happens so that the reads our guidelines on the google dogs by now the like forty pages on or something. And so every time a new kind of bug happens, we just go to the guideline and we add the lines, hey, this has happened to be for worry of bugs and it's saving so much time every .

there's companies do P, R reviews star when there's a company star? Or maybe how do you think about the complexity of the test when it's kind be worth time and kind of a vertical stand alone company versus just like this to do a good job ninety nine percent of the time?

That's a good question. We think about this one all the time. I can't say that we've really come up with a very cris articulation of when do you, anna, use a vertical tools? When do you want to use a horizontal? I think of IT is very similar to the intel that I find IT surprising the extent to which horizon cell engine has won.

But I think the google, I think even prising factor has go you go through you go to sech wikipedia. I think maybe the biggest exception is ec like you go to amazon to sell ec, otherwise you go through google. And I think that the reason for that is because silk in each vertical has more common with suit IT with article, and still is so expensive to get right.

And google is a big company that IT makes a lot of sense to aggregate of these different years cases and to spread your origin geta sole of these different use cases. I have a thesis, which is is a really cool scissors for Linda, is that the same thing is true for agents. I think that in the law, in a lot of ticket agents in ticals have more in comment with agents than they do with the also they are benefits and having a single agent platform because the way your agents can work together, they're like under one roof.

That way you only learn one platform and so you can create agents for everything that you want and and you not have to like day for, like eventually, different platforms. And so so I think ultimately, IT is actually going to shake out in a way that is similar to salt. In that salt is every way on the internet, every website has a salt box, right? So there's going to be a lot of vertical agents for everything. I think A I is going to completely penitent every category of software. But then I also the things that are going to be a few very, very, very big horizontal agents that solve a lot of functions for people.

That is actually one of the questions that we had about the agent stuff. So I guess we can transition away from from the screen and all just as to follow up, which is that is a hot topic. You are basically saying that the current VC obsession of the day, which is vertical AI enabled, says is mostly not going to work out and they're onna be some super giant horn to oh no.

i'm nothing is either or like SaaS today versace suit. And there's also a of horizon platform if you look at like notion because basis very horizontal, i'm in love and zoom and sacking, there's a lot of very horriston tal to there.

Okay, this is trying to get a reaction .

out of you for trying to get hot. No, I I also think he is that ural for the vertical solutions to amt because I just easier to build, just made my first child to build something horrible.

Tal, could some more a Linda specific questions. So we tired most of the top use cases and have an academy that was nice to to see. I also see some other people doing IT for you for free. So like ben spites is doing IT and then there's some other guy who is also doing like lessons .

yeah which is yeah you do more later. People think, yes.

I think that's the five will that you build the platform where create acy value in allying themselves to you. And so then you know your incentives ves to make them successful so that they can make other people successful. And age drives more and more engagement that you are like it's earned. Media like you .

don't have to do anything. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, do anything special there any big wins we .

have just like community that pretty active. I can't think we've investing.

I would say, from having so I had some involvement in the local community. I would say that web flow going very hard after a no code as a category got them a lot more allies than just the people using wiffle. So that helps to IT helps you to grow the community beyond just lindy, I don't know what this is called.

Maybe it's just no code again, maybe you want to call something different, but there is definitely of an appetite for this. And you are one of a broad category, right? Like just before you, we had dust on and they're also of going after a similar market.

Sapper obviously is not going to try to also compete with you. Yeah, there's a one question there, just like a reaction about community. Like I think a lot about community, the in spaces growing, the community of the engineers. And I think you have a slightly different audience of, I don't know what .

yeah I think that no code ting toral is is the community yeah IT is going to be the same sort of community is what weblogs up here table notion. To some extent .

the framing can be different if you are. So I think tinkers has this consent or not serious or like small and if you framed IT to like no code ea, we exclusively only for for CEO. With a certain budget, then you just you type into a different budget, that's true.

The problem with E A is like that the C E O has no wilderness to actually tinker and and play with IT.

And I was doing that like A A lot of your bigger advocates .

c right for or small business. I think I is in the exception yeah yeah yes.

Discussion in many ways.

Just before we've wrap on the use cases, it's a rick frayling. Your customers like a officially supported U S.

Or the main bs to be done really yeah, we woke up recently. So we haven't the obviously doing our custom support and we do check after that. And so we got this similar exchange where someone was asking lindy for video to toiles.

And at the time, actually we did not have video to toiles what you would do now. And in india, economy. And Linda responded to the details, oh, absolutely. Hear a link.

And we like, like, do, what kind of link did you send? And so we click on the link. And IT IT was a recall, reacted to reacted fast enough that we had not to yet open the email.

And so we reacted to ago, hey, actually, sorry, this is the right link. And so the mili very acted to the ink. And so, yeah, I twit about that. You to went surprisingly viral, and I checked after the wind in the logs. We do like query and and we found like I think like therefore.

although instances of surprisingly low and .

IT is low and and we fix IT across the board by just adding a lying to the this is improved. It's like a little old people, please.

Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah. I mean, so you know, you can explain a retroactively right like that youtube luck has been packed in so many difference. Corporations that obviously needed learn to hlubi .

ate that and IT pretended to be so many things yeah think everybody.

I would not be surprised if if that takes one token that consist is just, just one token .

idea youtube .

video because it's .

you so much right like and you have to have basically get IT exactly correct? Probably not.

That's a that's along.

So this is a just a jump p may be two evils from here. How could you possibly come up for an evil that says, make sure my eyes does not look for my customer? I feel like when people are writing evils does not something that so how do you think about events when it's such like an open and the problems space?

Yes, is this stuff? We build quite a bit of infrastructure for us to create event in one click from any conversion history. So we can point to a conversation and we can be like either in one click, we can tell me into effect vely.

A unit test is like this. This is a good position. This is how you're supposed to handle the things like this.

Or if it's a negative example, then we modify a little bit position, have till generating the evil. So is very easy for us. Just been up this kind .

of of the shop tour, which just have been trust on the test or just unfortunately .

built our own will most likely going to switch to brain trust when we built IT. There was nothing like those no to Frankly and and we started this project like end of twenty twenty two was like I was very, very, very I couldn't recommend IT to be the solutions out there. And I will even breaks all the dimond in the night mail to maintain and to that basically .

because I think my first conversations about was that you had a strong opinion that you everyone should build their own tools and you were very proud of your events. You are showing off to me like how many of you are running right?

Ah I think that was before all of these things around I think the ecosystem has been killed to film.

What is one thing that interest is nail that .

you always struggled to do not use they doing what we do with all even to IT but Better yeah .

and like they do IT, but also like sixty other companies do IT right? So I don't know how to shop apart from brand, we're of the same here yeah like eval's in these, there's two kinds of eval's right? In some way you don't have to evil your system as much because you've constrained the language model so much.

And you can rely on OpenAI to guarantee that this starched up was are going to be good, right? We had, Michelle said, where use IT and the inch explained exactly how they do a content grammar sampling and that good stuff. So actually more, more important for your customers to evalu their lindis than you evelin your Linda platform because you just build a platform, you don't actually need to evil that much in .

an ideal world world of the need to care about this. And I think is the ball is not like, look, IT needs to be at one hundred percent. I think the ball is IT needs to be battle in the human. And for most use cases with self today, IT is battles to the human, especially if you pretty on rails.

Is there a limiting factor of Linda the business? Like is that adding new connectors is IT adding new node types like privatize, what is the most important .

to your company and the capabilities for sure or big limit IT is actually shocking. The extent to which the model is no on the limit IT was the limit a year ago. I was too expensive.

If the context window was too small, it's kind of instant that we started building this when the context windows were like four thousand tokened. Like today, our system problems more than four thousand tokens. So yeah, the model is actually very much not to limit any more IT almost gives me buzz because I like I want the model to be a limit.

And so no is the integrations all or on the capabilities once, for example, we are investing in this system, that's basically I could be like j hack, give me these things like the poor man or a check so you can tell none a duggle on any step of your Linda warfare to be like ask me for confirmation before you actually execute this step. So it's like I receive any email, you send a reply, ask for information before actually sending IT. So today you see the email is about to get sent and you can use, approve, denial, change IT and then approve.

And we are making IT so that when you make a change, we all then saving this change that you're making, building into the retrieving these examples for desks and injecting them into the context window. So that's the kind of captain like makes a huge two friends full full uses. That's the bottle neck today is really like google engineering and and product work.

I seem be hiring call for hiring at the end.

Any other comments on the model side? When did you start feeling like the model was not a product that anymore was a former was trip in five .

strip on five senate? Definitely, I think for always over high. Frankly, we don't use for all. I don't. I don't it's good for agent behavior, is just finding that and then we prompt cashing with five like that. I yeah.

your problems are my son. The problems with agents uses is that your problems are kinder dynamic, right? Like from flashing to work in the front prefix portion to be stable, yes.

but we have this abandon leger paradise. So every node keeps spending to that begin. Every files of node inherits older context to build up by older, previous nodes. And so we can just decide, like, hey, every x thousand nodes we we trigger up prompt ing.

again, obvious. Ly do like photo matic ally.

not all the time tropic manages that the body is like because we keep up ending to the police. We just like the prompt tion works pretty well.

We have dislike small podcasts or to that are built for the pakistan. I reveal all of our prompts because I notice, you know, I was in putting stuff early on. I want there how much more money open and on truck making because people don't rewrite their prompts to be like static at the top and like .

dynamics at the bottom. But I think that's the remarkable thing about what having right now is it's instant that these companies routinely in the two, four, five apply. They want people to take advance ge .

of these innovations. Very good. Do you have any other competitive commentary? Dust word war gumm looks up your if now we .

can move on no coming I think I think the market is look, I mean, ega is coming, right? That I think .

you're helping like your paving the road to A G.

I am playing my small role and adding my small break to this giant Angel. Yeah, look, when it's here, we are going to have this entire category of software going to create. It's going to sound like an exaggeration ation.

But this fact is going to create trillions of dollars of value in a few years, years, right? Is going to, for the full time, actually having software directly replys human labor. I see IT every day in sales calls.

It's like Linda is today replacing like we we talk to even small teams. Oh like step, this is twelve people team here. I guess we will be for one of today and then i'll have to decide to do. And so yeah to me that this immense and capital market is just such A A huge ocean in those like three .

shocks in the what are the high order bits of good egypt design.

the model, the mother, the model, the model. I think people fail to truly and mean included. They failed to truly internalize the Peter lesson.

So the listening out there who know nobody IT is basically like you. You just killed the model. Like G, P, U, goo is all that ideal.

I think IT also holds for the the coverity architecture. I used to be very active. Architecture appealed. And I was like, I I was like a critique and I was like a generator, little little. And then just like gp go over like, just like let the model do its job. I think, well, seeing IT a little bit right now with all on it's i'm seeing some tweet that say that is a new thread. Five senate is as good as o one, but with none of old crazy IT.

it's o one on some measures on amy. It's still a lot lower like it's on amy.

but even all one is still the model that does no go wait to get Better.

And I found there. How do you think about that? right? I guess now knowing this, what would you just wait to start, lindy? You know, you start lindy is like four k context.

The morals are not that good, is like but you're still kind of like going along and building and just like waiting for the models to get Better. How do you today, again, what's to build? Max, yes, knowing that, hey, the models are gonna get Better. So maybe we just shouldn't focus on improving our prompt design and all of this stuff and just build a connectors .

instead of whatever. Yeah I mean, that's exactly what we do like all day will always ask selves. Or when we have a feature idea, feature request, we ask is this is the kind of thing that just gets Better? Well, always sleep because models get Better.

I'm reminded again when we started disease, twenty twenty two, we spent at other time because we had to around the context pruning because four thousand tokens is really nothing already come doing anything with four thousand talkers. All that work was throw away. Work like now isn't like he was.

Well, nothing. Now we just assume that infinite connection, those are going to be here in a year or something year and have and infinite cheap as well. And dynamic computers going to be here like just assume of these things are going to happen.

And so we really focus, I will jump to be done in the industry is to provide the input and output to the model. I really compare IT told the time, to the P. C. In the CPU right, apple is busy day on that like a CPU rapper. I have a lot to build, but they don't well, now actually do build the city well, but leaving that side, busy building up, up and just a lot of work to build.

Interesting because like for example, another person that we are close to me, hailey, from rapid, he often says that the biggest job for him was having a multiple ent approach, like the critical thing that you just said that he doesn't need. And I wonder when in what situations you do need that, in what situations you don't? Obviously, the simple answer is for coding, IT helped. And you are not coding except for, are you still generating code?

And yeah, no, we do. Oh right. No, no. Yeah, yeah. OK for you.

You one shot and you change .

tools together. And that's that's IT. And if the use really wants to have this kind of critic thing, you can also prom to use cases.

But yes, what about unexpected model releases as a untrod c with computer use today? I don't know, many people were expecting computer use took them out today. Do these things make you rethink how to design? Like your road map and thinks like that are just like a look, whatever. That's just like A A small thing, and they're like A G I pursuit that like maybe there not even gna support and like is still Better for us to build their own integrations into systems and and things like that because maybe people would say, hey, look, why am I building all these other integrations when I can just do computer use .

and I will go to the product? Yeah, no. I mean, we did take into account computer use. We will talking about this a year ago or something we've been talking about you to spot of a world map.

It's been clear to us that he twice coming, like we've write three pools of OpenAI, working on something like that for a very long time. My philosophy about IT is anything that can be done with an A P. I must be done by an A P.

I. Or or should I be done by an API for very long time? I think IT is dangerous to be always caviar.

About improvements of model capabilities. I'm reminded of IOS business android. Android was built on a the JVM. There was a garbage collector.

And I can only assume that the conversation that went down in the engineering meeting room was, who cares about the garbage collector anyway? Mos life is is here. And so that's all going to go to zero eventually.

sure. But in is the meantime, you are Operating on the four hundred mega health CPU like the first C P. On the iphone one and it's it's really snow in the garbage lector or is introduce a tremendous overhead on top of especially like a memory overhead.

And so full the longest time and dial been recently that android cut up to I U S. In terms of how smooth as the interactions well, but full the longest time and finances slower lag here and just not feeling as good as as I U S. devices.

And so look, when you are talking about all deals of magnet de of differences in terms of performance to and reliability, which is what we are talking about. When we talking about a use computer use, you can know that, right? So I think gonna be in the A P. I use will for for a while.

All one doesn't have A P. I use today. I will have at some point with on the road map, there is a future in which openly I goes much harder after your business, your market then IT is today like chat vt.

Its its its own business is nothing like two bill into the years thing yeah the all they need to do is add tools to the test ChatGPT and now they're suddenly competing with you. And and by the way, they have a GPT store where they a lot a bunch of people have ready configured their tools to fit with them. Is that a concern?

I think event GPT store in a way like the way they architecture, for example, is plugging and systems actually grateful because it's like we can also use the place is very open. No, again, I I think it's going to be such a huge market, going to be a lot of different shops to be done today, at least ChatGPT.

I know that have like a huge enterprise offering and stuff, but today such gp t is a consumer APP, right? And the sort of flow D I shows you the work of cases that are going after a lot and lead out today and all of that stuff. Yes, that's not something like meeting recording like Linda today right now, john, those meetings and technos all of that stuff. I don't see that so far on the open the air road map. No.

but they do have an enterprise team we talk to for that's ble summer cool. I have some other questions on the company building stuff. You're hiring games.

We did the fascinating way to build a business, right? Like to like what should you A C, E O. Be in charge of and what should you basically hire a mini C E O to do?

Yeah, that's a good question. I think that's all single. Figuring out as a gm thing was inspired, ed, from my days at uber where we highest one gm pill city, you'll mijares area. We like gms, original gms.

And so and yeah, lindy is so horizontal that we thought is made sense to hire or gm to own agro al ends to go to market of ticals and and the custom date of the indeed played for these vertical and and so forth. What should I own as, uh, C E O? I mean, is a kind collar reply. Here is always going to be know your owns the fundraising, your own is a culture, your own but of the collar reply, feel the fundraising. I don't know products even that eventually you do have to hand out, yes, the vision capture the if you do these things and you've done and you've done you to see in practice, obviously, yeah, I mean, they I do a lot the product to work, steal and I want to keep doing product to work for as long as possible. Obviously, like you, you're recording and aging the team.

That one feels like the most automated part of the job, the recruiting stuff.

Well, yeah so I designing your recording .

yeah relationship between Victoria o and building Linda.

we actually very often and talk about how the business of the future is like a game of focal il. Yeah, it's like you just wake up in the morning and you've got your indian stance.

It's like slack and you've got like five thousand lies in the side ball and your job is to somehow manage your five thousand lines and is going to be very similar to company building because you're going to look like the highest delivery to understand what's going on in your A A I company and understand what levels do you have to make him back in that company. So I think going to be very humor like a human company, except going to infinite faster today in the human company, you could have a meeting with your human. You like a design okay.

I guess i'll give up of a too. okay. Yeah actually it's more important that you can clone .

an existing designer that you know works because the hiring process you cannot clone someone yeah, because every new person you bringing is IT has gonna do have their own tweak and you don't want that.

W.

yeah you want to. Army of mines. Jones, that all worked the same way.

The reason i've bring this, bring factorial up as well is of one factorial space just came out, apparently A H bunch of people stop working. I tried on Victoria. I never really got that much into IT. But the other thing was you had to tweet recently about how the sort of intentional top down design was not as effective as build yeah just like just ship. I .

think people really glow bit too much into that tweet .

like I ent will take.

You should know, I said he was just hearing an interesting story. But effect of you game my head was I I like everything about life and good, and there is something to be said, so only about focusing on the constraint. And I think of this Better collision.

Who said people endorsed to the extent to which moon shots, or just one pargana accepted, and I told the other. And I think as long as you have some inductive buyers about like some loose idea about where you want to go, I think that makes sense to do a sort of greedy y soil along the bus. I think planning and orange zing is important, and having older is important.

Restless with that, there's two ways I encounter IT recently, one with lindy, when I tried out, one of your automation tempts, and one of them was quite big, and I just didn't understand IT, right? So like, IT was not as useful to me as a small one that I can just plug in and see all of. And then the other one was me using curse.

I was very excited about all one, and I just up front stuff ed everything I wanted to do into my prompt and expected. I don't want to do everything. And I got itself into a huge jumble mess.

And IT IT was stocking IT was really there was no month I wasted like two hours on just like trying to get out of that hole. So I though we will be the cobs started small sister claws on IT build up for something working and just added over time and I just worked yeah and to me that was the Victorious a sentiment. Maybe I one of those fan boys like obsessing over the death of something that just me to you up, but I think is true for company building, for lindy building, for coding.

I think it's fair. And I think like you and I talked about those the different mental principal and those these other other I forgot the name of this is basically about this book. Seeing like a state that ducks about is a need for legibility and people who optimize the system for its legibility.

And any time you make a system so legible is basically more understand system, more understand the top down IT buffed less well from the butter map. And it's fine if that's what you want, but you should at least make this trade up with your eyes wide open. You should know I am sacrificing performance for, understandably for the, and in this case for you, IT makes sense that you are really amazing foliage ability.

You do want to understand your code base, but in in some other cases, IT may not make sense. Sometimes it's is Better to leave the the system alone and and let IT be geode organic self and just trust that is going to perform well. Even though you don't understand .

IT completely IT does remind me of a common managerial issue or dilema, which you experiencing a small scope, lindy, where you know, what do you want to organized your company by functional sections, or by products or whatever the opposite of functional is? And you tried that one way. IT was more eelids ble to U.

S. C. O. But actually it's stopped working in at the the small level.

yeah. I mean, one very small example, again, adult small scales. We used to have everything on notion.

And for me, I found the order that was awesome, because everything was there. The world map was dee. The tasks will deal.

Is the post multiple? Well, they are. And so I was. So he was exactly. And so I had this like one pain of class, and everything was a motion. And then is the team, when they came to me with pitch folks and they really wanted to implement near, and I had to bite my fiscal house like fine to IT implemented near, because I was like, at the end of the day, the team needs to be able to stay, organize and pick their own tools. But I did make the company slightly less for me.

Another big change you have was gone away from remote work bringing people back in person. I think there's obviously every other month, uh, the discussion comes up again. What was that discussion? Like how did your feelings change? What's your kind of like a troud of employees and team size where you felt like a that work now doesn't work anymore? And how are you thinking about the future as you killed the team?

yeah. So for context, I used to have a business called team flow business was about building a vital office for remote teams. And so being remote was not merely something we did IT IT was, I was banging the remote from super hall because we were helping companies to go remote, right? And so Frankly, in a way to be embarrassing for me to do like a one E T like that.

But I guess, you know, when the facts change, I change my mind. What happened? Well, I think that feels like everyone else.

We went to remote by necessity. I was like coffee, and you ve got to a remote. And on paper, the gains of remote or enormous, particularly funder standpoint, being able to hang off from anywhere is is huge.

Saving on rent is huge, saving on community huge forever one. And so all but then i'm not going to say anything original here. It's like IT is really making IT much hodel to work together.

And I spent three years of my youth are trying to build a solution for this. And my conclusion is at least we couldn't figure IT out and no one else could. Zoom didn't figure out out as we had like a bunch of competitors like get down was one of the bigger ones.

We had dozens and dozens of competitions. No one figured that. I don't know that.

So we can actually solve this problem. Reality of IT is everyone just wants to get off, don zom god. And it's not a good feeling to be in your home opfer.

If you have been all looking enough to have a home home office all day. It's harder to build culture. It's harder to get in sink. I think it's soft to any peculiar because it's like a nice bill. It's like the vast majority of IT is submit and water, and so is quality of the software that your ship is a function of the alignment of your mental models about what is below that, what line can you actually get in sink about what this is exactly fundamentally, that building, what is the soul of a product and IT is so much, how do to get in? Think about that when you're remote, and then you waste time in a thousand ways, because people of line and you can get a hold of them, like you tell your scream, like your walking more is all day. And eventually I just I was like, okay.

this is anymore yeah I think that is the current builder surfaces go consensus here. But I still have a big like one of my big heroes as A C E O is is a branch from good bb mother. We used to be a hero, but like these people run thousand person remote businesses.

That the main idea is that at some company size, you can use remote anyway. Yes, because if you go from one building to two buildings, you are congrats. You are not remote from the other buildings. Like if you won't one city of, like two city .

offers each other, always talk about this. Real full is a good lab and word press and Z P. And there he used to be in vision.

And I will point out that in every one of these examples, you have a good located contextual that is, sometimes all those are manage bigger. Look, I like math. I work a lot. But well, Prices of critical failure, they were in sixty percent of the intern and and they are like a fraction of the size of even subset, right?

Oh, they're trying to get more money.

Yeah, that's my boy. right? Like look good, that is much more less than get hub h innovation is no more and and figg ma like completely let go of people because they to so I think if you're optimizing for productivity, if you really know, hey, this is A A super ticket, right? And I want to have a support tickets for back support ticket and and next year I want back then, sure, send your portion team to option like the Philips or whatever.

And just opto forest, if you optimistic recast absolutely be remote. If you're optimizing for creativity, which I think that software product building is a creative and dever. If you're have amazing for creative tivy, it's kind of like compulsion, an album you can do IT on the cheap. You want the very best album that you can make. And you have to be doing and heal the music to do that.

Now maybe the the line is that all jobs that can be remote should be ai, lindy. And all jobs, they are not remote or in person. This a very, very clear separation of jobs 是。

but I think is going to A I anyway IT will .

be curious to I break down what you think is creativity in coding and in product defining and how to express that with l limbs. I think that is under export for sure. You are definitely what I call a temperature zero use case of A L ms.

You wanted to be reliable, predictable, small. And then there's other use cases of them that are more and creativity, right? I have been checked, but that i'm pressure. No one uses Linda for brain forming. Actually.

probably they do. I need lindy for brainstorm a lot.

Yeah but like, you know, you you want to have like something that's entire, fragile to hallucinations. Hlubi ation are good bike.

c. DVD, I mean, is IT about direction? Or magnus de, if he is about direction, like, decide what to do.

And the creative, if IT is about uh, magnitude and just do IT as fast as possible, as cheap as possible. And it's it's magnitude. And so sometimes you know a software companies are not necessarily creative.

Sometimes you know what you're doing and i'll say that is going to come across the wrong way, but linear, i'd look up to a huge event t like such amazing product building, but they know what the building to a truck. Er len is building a touch tracker, right? I don't mean to associate that them goods that think well done .

that recently got shit for saying that they have worklife baLance very discription. What do you mean by this?

Well, building a new kind of product to that? No one's able to people, and so will scratch, trying to get in inherently creative .

struggle. Yeah, there we asked about synthetic co. And there is a whole bridge of tough stuff here.

I don't know if I particularly leanings, and probably the biggest one I would just congratulate you on is becoming american, right? Like you very french, but your heart was of in the U. S.

You actually found your way here. What are you are takes for for like a founders like you? A few years ago, you wrote this post on like, go as Young man.

And now you've basically completed that journey, right? Like you. You are now here. Love to the point where I kind of mystify by how europe has been so d so in a way though.

I I feel educated because I was making the prediction that europe was, over fifteen years ago, something like that. I think he had been a walk in corps for a long time. I think IT becoming obvious banking, the consequences of policies from twenty thirty years ago.

I think at this point, I wish I could do right go west Young man article. But really even more extreme. I think that at this point, if you are in deck, especially nai, but if you are in deck and your not in first school, you is like a judgmental you like condition.

It's one of the two. It's fine here. I recently told that to someone and the one like oh like not everyone wants to be like a unique and founder and was like like I said, judgment or ambition ah it's fine to not have ambition.

It's fine to want to prioritize other things than your company in life for your career in life. That's that's perfectly okay, but know that that's the trade of you're making. If you priorities your career, you got to be .

here as a follow european and escape st. I grow in rome. Yeah, how do you think never .

talked about you are feeling? yeah.

And in the U. S, now, six years, well, I started my first company, europe, ten years ago. Something, yeah, you can tell nobody want you too much. And then you're like, okay, it's funny. I was looking back through some tweet and I was sent all these weeks to like market and reason like fifteen years ago, like turn al like learn more about why are you guys putting money in these things that most people here would say you're like crazy. So like even back and eventually know I start to match her yeah, six, five years ago.

And I think just like so many people in europe, Richard d and scape and you like talk our team and like you a lot, and they just cannot comprehend, like the risk appetite the people have here is just like so foreign two people, at least in italy. And like in some parts of europe, i'm sure there's some great founders in europe, like the average uros an founders, like why would I leave my job at the post office to go work on the start up that could change everything and become very successful. But my god of business, instead in the U.

S, people like you, we host a, have on four hundred people, show up and is like where can I go? Word that is like no job security, you know yeah it's just like completely different and there's no incentives from the government to change that. There's no way you can like change such a deep rooted culture of like you know going in wine and April spirits and all of that early in the afternoon. So I don't really know. I want to change yeah totally.

That's why I left.

It's the quality is so high that I left ah but again, I I I agree with you is just like like there's no rational explanation as to why it's Better to movie and just if you want to do this job and do this, you should be here if you don't want to, that's fine but like don't copyright don't be like, oh no, you can also be successful doing this and knees or like what no probably not, you know so yeah, I really done and four hundred, so I should get my us citizenship. yes. And I think to be fair.

I think what's happening right until europe is largely self inflicted. I think that is just completely said, no capital m decided not to be ism a long time ago, completely gulag that is much too high. And so but I also think some of this is a little bit of a self with filling propac's or it's is a self palpitated inan phenomenon.

Because look to your point at once, there is a network effects was just so incredibly poor food that can be broken, really. And we tried, we send Frances go. I tried, we send france.

Like during cover, there was a movement, people moving to my, and how did that out? You can't break the nett effect. You know, it's so annoying.

Because first principles, why is tech not be here? Like text, be in miami, because this is a Better city. This is the thing I actually wrote down. The example is his tech IT is true, I think.

that people that are insurance renters, they were here before jack, hate IT. And then there's kind like this past one thing. But I would say people in miyama, I would hate IT too, if there were too much of IT like the naked beach crowd .

would also just .

had enough. Yeah, I P, okay, cool. Yeah, yeah. Maybe, which is one thing I .

love about this. Love IT too much. Maybe the last thing I mentioned, I just wanted a little bit of E, U, X.

talk. I maybe carvel. I think the U. K, has not really well. That's an argument for the U. K, not being part of europe. H, is that A P, A, I institutions there at least have have done very well, right?

sure. Economy in, at best .

in france has a few. Who, jan, who do, uses this hugger face a few words, just everything disappointed there first.

No AI minister, you know that mean who's like the guy who's celebrating with his trophy? And like it's like maybe one boston to marketing. And by the way, I said that I love metrolink.

I love the guys over there, and it's not a critic of them. It's a critic of friends and of europe. And by the way, I think i've failed that. The metro guys were moving to the us. We have an office here.

the opening and offer they have very different you can really avoid IT. That's one interesting counter move. After Jason Warner and ice count moving to paris for pull side, I still remains to be seen how that move is going.

Maybe the last thing i'll say living, that's the europe talk. I we tried not to do politics so much, but you are here. One thing that you do a lot is you test you over two windows, right? Like far more than any futher I know, you know, is not your job. Someone for sure, you are just indulging, but also, I think you're consciously test, and I just want to see what drives you there and why do you keep doing IT? Because something you treat very spicy stuff, especially for like the emphasis goal is of liberal dynasty.

I don't know because so I see me you're referring to recently I put IT something about pronounce .

and how general I don't want you to well.

you know well is that tweet particular when I was you don't like I I know I received zero push back and twitter will actually presumed cesspool and I received that other people are reaching as like, oh god, so true. I think it's coming from a different places. One life is more fun this way, like I don't feel like self censor ing all the time, you know.

It's just like know that number one. Number two, if you want to waste self and sells, never have on anyone thinks so it's it's becoming like a self property, things like a public lies, private tooth saw the phenomenon on, know this. Like does this phenomenon called the preference?

Casca is like, does this joke is like old. The only one communist left in U. S. S. The problem is no one which is so everyone pretend to be common, because everyone else pretend to be a communist.

And so I think there's a role to be played for someone to have backroom and just be like i'm thinking this next the everyone thinks the same, especially when you are like me in the position where it's like I don't have a bus who's going to file me like lucky I don't speak up and he found isms to speak up like White. What are you're afraid of, right? Like those really not that much downside. And I think something to be said about standing up what you think is right and being real and owning your opinions.

I think there's a correlation there between having that level of independence for your political belief and free speech or whatever, and the way that you think about business too. Like I I see that IT helps.

I think I think the world contrarian has become abused, but I think there's such a powful insight that its cool, which is group think is real and provocative and really problematic.

Like your brain constantly shuts down because you'll not been thinking and you're not well and you're not thinking, you just look around you and you decide, adapt the same belief as people around you and everyone singing that for you and everyone else to doing IT except themselves, a special way. I have free will. That's right. So so I make IT a point to like, look for, hey, what would be a seeing right now that I I can't really say and then I think about IT not like, do I believe this thing and very often and so is yes. And then I just say, and so I think the I safety is an example of that, like at some point a mockin rison blogged to me on twitter and I I told out Frankly, I I really look up to mark and reason and and I .

knew he would lock me means your successful other just the right of .

the sage mark reason was really made booster initially on twitter. He really made my account, you know and I was like, look at i'm really concerned about A I fet IT is an unpopular .

view among the I read you that actually came out support of the bill.

I came out in support of his bitter and forty seven a year a half ago was I like some twit, storms about how was really concerned. And yeah, I was blocked by a bunch of office six hundred people. And I don't like IT, but you know, it's funny.

Maybe it's by panch education. But look, in france, world dwo is very present in people's minds. And the phenomenon of people collaborating with the nazis during world world to is really present in people's mind.

And there is always this sort of debates that people have, like gene in sara, would you really have resited during world world to? right? And everybody is always yeah to the five did not resist and and most of IT actually collor ated activity within that. And so nine, if I was to or wrong, like you would actually have collaborated, right? I've always told myself like I will stand for what I think is right, even if I have. Like i've gotten into musical fights in my life, like in the ef, because like some people go to act and like the way was brother is like someone got to act before you you get involved, like is that you get involved and you help the right and so um look that pretending well like nowhere near like a world world two phenomenon but exactly because we are nowhere near the of and like this takes so low and if you're not going to stand up for what you think is right when he takes all solo, are you going to stand up when you matters?

Is how education is that if you done up guns when you find them, so you can always get in the fight here, the us. Always like, man.

I feels I detect some inconsistency in your statements because you similar anouschka that agi is very soon and you also say stakes allow you can releve both real well.

the stakes, why? Why does the gime make the stakes of speaking up higher?

Sorry, stakes of like.

oh yeah, no, the stakes of a like musical safety, no A I safety of a safety could not be higher, I think the stakes of like picking up about pronouns, but I OK yeah, yeah, yeah.

How do you figure out who's real, who is in? Because there was a hole like a manifest for responsibly eye and like hundreds of like VS and people sign and I don't think anybody actually .

any of them thin or there was like .

something else good that I think general catalyst and like some fine by and that there's maybe the anthropic case, which is like, hey, we're living up in the eye because you guys don't take security seriously and that is like, k, what if we give A I access to a whole computer to just like go do things like how do you reconcile like, okay. I mean, you could say the same thing about them is like if you've worried about the ice safety where you building A I right that's kind like extreme thinking, how do you internally decide between participation and talking about IT and saying, hey, i've been this is important, but I am so gonna build towards that and building actually makes us safer because i'm involved versus just being like anti I think this is unsafe, but then not do anything about IT and just cannot remove yourself from the whole thing, if that make sense. Yeah.

is the way I think about our own involved theories. I am quickly concerned about the risks at the model layer, and I am sam le dousa. Very excited about the website for the record.

My p dom in as I can qualify, which I can not. But if I had to, like my vibe is like ten percent or something like that. And so there's like a ninety percent change that we even like pure, right? And that's awesome.

Let's talk about the ten percent chance that things go to be wrong. I do believe there are ninety percent that who live in the youtube. A I will also no disease.

And like a st. City world, I think that youtube I is going to happen through like again, I am bringing my little contribution to the movement. I think that would be silly to say no to the upside because you're concerned by the downside.

At the same time, we want to to be concerned about the downside. I know that it's very self solving to say, oh, you know like the downside doesn't exist. That make I think is is like the model layer.

Look at lindy. Look at the apple building. I struggled to exactly how I would like get up and and the in crazy stuff i'm concerned about the model layer.

okay. Well this kind of discussion can go on for ours. Uh IT is still delight so um not the best time for you but um I really appreciate you spending the time any other last call actions or thoughts that you feel like you wanna .

off for your trust coming.

OK, are you hiring for where we are?

Yeah, guess that be the .

no father?

no. Can you stop saying, ah, we are also hiring? Uh, yeah, we are hiring design nails and engine, right? So hit me up at a flow at A I and then .

I go talk to my lady.

Not actually gonna really.

I wondered how many times when I talk to you, I am talking to part. Part of that I don't have to know, right?

Well, is confusing because we have a teammate with name is lindy.

Yes, I also wondered that I met her. I was like, wait, like.

did you hire her first?

no. SHE was an inspiration after, know, we named the company .

for me after her. okay. Interesting, interesting. yeah. onderstand. I'll comment on the design piece just because I think that there are a lot of AI companies that very much focus on the the functionality and the models and the capabilities and image, mark.

But I think that increasingly, i'm seeing people differentiate with design and people want to use beautiful products and people who can figure that out and integrate the AI into the human lives, designed to limit one that the low levels make this look pretty, make this look like stripe or linear home page that's design. But at the highest level of design, IT is make this integrate seamlessly into my life, intuitive, beautiful, inspirational, maybe even. And I think that companies that I know this is kind of think about, because i've been thinking about is that emphasize design actually are going to win .

more than something I love this Steve job, and going to. But something like a design is the expression of the soul of the men made products to successively years of design. And he he was going king.

It's starts with the .

soul of the product, which is why I was saying this is so important to rich ligand about that soul of the product. right? The second onion, like you pull the onion in those layers, right? You design an entry journey like the user experiencing your product chronologically all the way from the beginning of, like the awareness stage.

I think he is also the job of the design. To design that part of the experiences is like, okay, that's great, basically. So yeah, I grew you.

I think design is is immensely important OK love. Yeah, thanks. yeah. But you thanks for having me.