Utah State Treasurer Marlo Oaks' Environmental Exposé
57:15 Share

It's time to take the quiz. Five questions, five minutes a day, five days a week. Take the quiz every weekday at thequiz.fox and then listen to the quiz podcast to find out how you did. Play, share, and of course, listen to the quiz at thequiz.fox. Welcome to the Jason House podcast. I'm Jason Chaffetz and I want to give you some thoughts on the news and we're going to highlight the stupid because, you know, there's always somebody doing something stupid somewhere.

And then we're going to phone a friend. This time we're going to call Marlo Oaks. Marlo Oaks is somebody I'm sure you haven't heard of because he's the state treasurer for the state of Utah. And there's no possible way you're going to know who this person is except...

Mrs. Marlo Oaks. But he's tackling an issue that's going to affect every single American. And it's a topic that you really need to know about. It's called ESGs, environmental social governance. It is affecting how we do things, what we're talking about, how companies are governed, how money flows, etc.

And so even though you're thinking, I've never heard of that, Jason, or maybe, yeah, I heard about it, but I don't know anything about it. This guy knows more about ESGs and is taking on these big woke companies and these big woke fund managers and the flow of billions of dollars. And you really, I'm fascinated to have this discussion with him because I want people to understand, have a deeper appreciation of what this environmental change

social governance scheme is all about. And so we're going to call up Marla Oaks and have that discussion. So a lot happening in the news. I obviously cannot be more proud of the progress of what's going on in Ukraine. The idea that Russia has not been able to be victorious in taking over that whole country in this long period of time is

It's just absolutely stunning. That's because of perseverance. It's because of people care. There are fights going on neighborhood by neighborhood. And I'd like to say I can imagine, but I don't think I can imagine what it would be like if somebody was by force with no provocation was coming to take over our country, our town, and my home.

And these people don't even necessarily have the training, but they have the fortitude. They don't necessarily have the weapons, but they've got the fortitude. It is absolutely stunning what's going on there. And I...

I don't want people to get so complacent that we forget about what's going on. But I also want to highlight that there are other places like Ethiopia and the Democratic Republic of the Congo where there are major conflicts with loss of life by the tens of thousands, millions of people displaced.

You know, a lot of the cameras are moving and focused on a European country because they can and because of the good work Elon Musk did in creating Starlink so that people can continue to broadcast and communicate via the Internet because of an innovative satellite solution to giving access to Internet products.

But you don't see that in Africa. And there's far too much conflict there. I wish the news media as a whole would be able to highlight and be able to shed light on that. And, you know, the United States, we can't go fix everything everywhere. I get that. But given the resources and our tenacity and our smarts and our logistics and our weapons capabilities and everything else,

i wish we could do more there and i don't understand why we pour billions of dollars into the united nations because these people seem to be nowhere on places where there are truly conflicts and um it does bother me that that continues to continues to be the case the other thing that i really hope we understand is with this whole abortion thing i

You've heard a long chorus of people talking about how wrong it is that the Supreme Court, somebody leaked a draft of an opinion. You know, the beauty of the system here is with the nine justices, they need to be able to have a dialogue. They need to be able to have a draft and debate and challenge each other and have a

a perfection in what they end up writing. And the consequence of a leak is the distrust, the inability to communicate. It goes far beyond Roe versus Wade in this one particular ruling.

But what I worry about is that it will have a chilling effect on the court and their ability to actually communicate prior to the issuance of something that will govern the way we operate as a nation, sometimes in perpetuity forevermore, sometimes for decades, depending on what sort of precedents or conditions.

or what specific language is given by those justices. So I cannot say enough about the need and the compelling need for the court via the marshal to be able to go and root this out. Now, one of the things I was very surprised about, I did not know, I did not know,

Back in the day, we were actually having some security breaches with the Secret Service, and I dove in and did an investigation with Elijah Cummings in a very bipartisan way, shocked to find out what we learned. And we had all sorts of public hearings, very private classified briefings.

really spent a lot of time on making sure that the Secret Service was doing what it was supposed to do because, quite frankly, they hadn't had much oversight in a long time. We went through a couple different directors of the Secret Service, shocked to find what we found. But I'm just telling you that as a precursor to say one of the concerns that we had was how does the court operate?

And Elijah Cummings and I at one point went over and met with the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, Justice Roberts. And we met with the Chief Justice and we talked about the need to have now the security of the court improved. This was done in the context of what was going on with Anthony Scalia. When Justice Scalia lost his life,

And I got to be careful because a lot of this is classified, but there were a lot of things that were normal operating procedure for the court that I think most people would be shocked by. I was shocked by it. So the change in trajectory of the nation can hinge on the loss of life of one justice or another because...

There is a huge need to keep everybody alive at this point. The second thing that I was very surprised, and again, I'm kind of teasing what I talked about with Justice Roberts, but I think he implemented some of the changes, and we're about to find out if he implemented some of the changes.

But the other thing that I learned along the way, I was talking to a friend of mine. His name was Steve Sargent. He's an attorney in Salt Lake City now. He's recommended to me by Mike Lee. When I had left Congress, I needed an attorney just to put together a little LLC and do some little legal work. So I said, Mike, do you have any suggestions? And he recommended Steve Sargent. Well,

Steve Sargent used to be a clerk for Justice Rehnquist. And so I had a discussion with him once, long time ago, I hope he doesn't mind my sharing this, I don't think he will, where I was talking about, wow, that's fascinating to be a clerk for a Supreme Court justice, the chief justice. And I said, how many clerks were there? So think about that. I mean, some of you legal eagles may know what the answer to this is, but I was shocked to learn that

how many clerks work for a Supreme Court justice? And you know what the answer is? Well, for Chief Justice Rehnquist, it was three. And I think most of them have four. So the universe of people that are going to be touching or have access to a draft is really going to be a small number. There are probably some...

assistants that are also engaged, maybe a scheduler and a personal assistant, maybe an office manager. But the point is, it's not as if each justice has 100 clerks working for him, which was kind of my perception. I just thought, wow, biggest, you know, a senator has all kinds of staff. When I was on the oversight staff, we had 60 people working. So how many people would would a Supreme Court justice have?

Three or four, plus maybe another staff person or two. I mean, there's the IT people. The point is the universe is going to be very, very small. I don't know that the marshal has the technical capability of rooting this out. Maybe that the FBI has to be brought in, but I think the court will err on

to its own fault in wanting to bring in other types of law enforcement. We'll see where this goes, but they need to root this out so it doesn't happen again. And we don't have that chilling effect on the court in its ability to communicate. That's my hot take on the news. All right, now it's time to bring on the stupid because you know what? There's always somebody doing something stupid somewhere. And all I can do is highlight the stupidness that continues to come out of Amber Heard and Johnny Depp.

This sounds like a lover's quarrel and spat that... What a mess. What an absolute cluster. It's something that is salacious and consequently gets a lot of time and attention. But you know what? This is where sometimes we spend too much time on the personal lives of entertainers. I don't care what form of entertainment, but...

I recognize there's a whole industry around this, and it kind of gets to the point of stupid when you have a group of people who are airing out all their laundry. To what effect? To what end? There seems to be a whole lot of crazy going on, and I just want to shortly say it just seems like there's a whole lot of stupid.

All right. So I want to get to this interview with Marlo Oaks. Again, he's the Utah State Treasurer. We're going to talk about environmental social governance, and it does affect all of us. So I want to get to this interview with Marlo Oaks.

Stay with us through this because I think he'll do a really good job of explaining it and why it's so imperative to our financial futures and our ability as a nation to do things and live up to the fiduciary responsibility that these companies have if we make an investment or become a shareholder. So it should be interesting. Let's dial up Marlo Oaks.

Hello? Marlo, hey, this is Jason Chaffetz. Thanks for joining me on the Jason in the House podcast. Hey, Jason, how are you? Well, listen, hey, thanks so much for joining us. We're talking to Marlo Oaks, who's the state treasurer for the state of Utah. And I find him to be just a fascinating individual. Being in Utah, look, I was the congressman in Utah. We got mutual friends. I work with this person named Jennifer Scott, who's spent a lot of time with you and

And I'm actually, I've been working on a book. I got a fourth book that's coming out. Not here to reveal everything yet. But one of the things we started to dive into were these so-called ESGs. And you're really kind of the leading authority on ESGs and how they're being used. And the state of Utah did something really interesting. But let's go back to the basics because ESG,

My guess is a lot of people don't know what these are and how they're being used and what's going on with them. So first of all, welcome, Marlo. Thank you so much. Well, thank you. And we'll go back. Yeah, we can go back to your history and all that. But I want to get right after ESGs and explain to people what it is and what's going on. How do you explain it to somebody who's

heard of it, but really not sure what it is. Yeah. So really ESG originates in the investment world. So among investment managers and investors that are concerned about different issues, E stands for environmental, S is social, G is governance. You can think of it as

environmental, social justice, corporate behavior. It's a way to rate companies or provide some quantitative indication of how a company is doing in these different areas. And as I looked at it, what struck me was how political it was. And the reason that I say that is that there's really two major reasons

areas of subjectivity. Number one is who's determining what the ESG factors are.

And number two, who's deciding what the correct answer is to those ESG factors? So for example, British Petroleum, is it negative because they're a fossil fuel company or they're a big oil company or are they positive because they're doing research to find solutions or alternatives to fossil fuel, right?

who's determining that? And so it is fundamentally a political rating. Now, why is this important? Let's go back. What are these ratings do? I mean,

Companies have a fiduciary responsibility to make money, right? I mean, if you're a shareholder, you want to get a return on your investment. That's right. And that's critical because that's really the basis of our corporate law is the fiduciary standard for a corporation is to maximize shareholder value. It's based on that shareholder supremacy standard.

And if that changes, then that fiduciary standard is completely different. Today, though, it's very important to remember that a corporation is there to make a return. And they do that by providing a good or service that has value to society.

And so the corporation is there to serve society. And they do that by maximizing shareholder value. And they can't do that if they're not providing a good or service that is in demand by society that somehow benefits society.

So I think that's really important to understand. And part of this usage of ESG is a focus on political issues to really drive political outcomes. So if you're focused on climate change, for example, and you're worried about

climate risk, then the ESG score is, you know, supposed to be used to provide information for investors so that they can, if they're concerned about the environment, they have the information that they need to determine if they want to invest in a particular company or not, which sounds positive and wonderful. But you really have to look at

the history of ESG and put it in context. So traditionally, there's been two other kinds of value-based investment strategies. One is socially responsible investing, and that's been around for centuries. Here in the United States, it was religious organizations that really started

And with this kind of investment strategy, and that was to avoid companies that they didn't want to participate in that were doing something objectionable or something that was sort of against their values. And so they would avoid investing in those companies.

With the other side of that is impact investing. That's a little bit newer, and that's where investors are seeking to find companies that are providing a solution to a problem that they're concerned about. So if you're concerned about cancer as an investor, maybe you're an impact investor, you would look for companies that are providing solutions.

solutions or have potential solutions, for example, therapies or other cures for cancer, and you would back those companies. And so it's really about innovation. ESG is very different. In the case of SRI and impact investing,

Those strategies respect the capital markets. They don't try to change companies. They don't try to change the capital markets. But ESG does. ESG, in order to drive a political agenda, you have to have power in the capital markets. And that means having a lot of money to drive an outcome. And so that's what we're seeing with ESG is this drive to get a lot of energy

on board that have capital to cut off, for example, capital to the fossil fuel industry. The only way you can do that is by getting a lot of people to think the same way you do.

And that's fundamentally a different kind of strategy that alters our free market capitalist system. We don't have free market capitalism today in the United States. And it's different because of that coercive element that is at the heart of ESG. And that's why it's so problematic.

Yeah. And so, you know, there have been, you know, Elizabeth Warren. You have some other political players, Senator Markey from from also from Massachusetts AOC, others who really want to drive home a political narrative that is so focused, as John Kerry would say, on

on climate change. But if they were to try to pursue the Green New Deal, it would go nowhere in Congress because it doesn't have broad political support. I think, look, I'm a conservative. This is just me talking about this issue. I'm a conservative. I want to preserve. I want to make sure that we're best utilizing our resources. And of course, what you throw in the air and in the water has an effect on our lives. I get that.

But this approach is so far to the extreme at the exclusion of what actually works and how people make their living and get to school and get to work and everything else. That's been my concern. So here comes Marlo Oaks. He prevails and comes along and becomes the state treasurer. But your background is such that you really do kind of understand this. Explain to us.

What Utah, in the position it's taken, is doing that is different maybe than the other states because there are major investments done by states, whether they be retirement funds or explain that whole world and why Utah took the position it did as it relates to ESG's.

Yeah. So the state of Utah has a very strong track record with our credit rating. And that's a key asset of any state is the credit rating of a state because that determines at what level you can borrow in the capital markets or how expensive or inexpensive it is to borrow in the capital markets. And Utah, since

Any credit rating that started ratings on the state of Utah, so 1965, I believe, was the first year, and that was S&P. We've been rated AAA since then. Moody's was 1973, I believe, AAA, Fitch, 1992. So we are known as a triple AAA rated state, the highest rating in the world.

And when you apply ESG to any organization, whether it's a state or a corporation, you're politicizing what has previously been a financial decision. And so it doesn't matter how innocuous maybe those ratings are initially. It just opens the door.

to potential future manipulation by outside forces that say, oh, Utah isn't, you know, Utah's gun laws are too lax or Utah's extracting too much oil or whatever the political issue is. And so from my perspective and from the perspective of all of the political leaders in the state, that creates a serious problem because no longer are we suddenly in charge of

of what really matters when it comes to borrowing money, and that is the ability to repay an investor. If somebody is creating a political score on the state of Utah, then markets can point to that and say, oh, Utah shouldn't be given the cheapest rates in the marketplace because they're not doing X, Y, or Z.

And so that's why we wrote a letter to S&P and objected to the publication of any ESG rating that was any part of the state of Utah, even if it is separate from the credit rating. If it's a material rating.

financially important ESG-related factor, then it will be in the credit rating itself. It should not be called out separately, particularly when you can add a lot of things that aren't material or aren't relevant to the ability of the state to pay that back. And so if it's relevant, put it in the credit rating.

Am I oversimplified by saying, look, what the credit rating should be able to look at, the S&Ps of the world, standards and porous of the world should be looking at is the ability of Utah to pay back on the borrowing that it takes. It should be that simple, right? Okay.

It's that simple. Absolutely. And so when they decide that politically, hey, we don't like conservatives. See, this is the concern. The heart of the nub here is that you have this Congress that they could go enact some laws with, but they could never get that passed because it is so radical and it would expose what they're doing. But what they're doing and why I want to include it in my next book is behind the scenes, they can manipulate the people because...

particularly the banking sector, right? So here's this difficult question, right? We have an energy crisis in this country. We need energy. The return on energy investments is going well. But what does a big bank or a mid or even a small bank or a credit union do when somebody comes in to get a loan for their money? Well, if they're going to be evaluated and ranked and scored by the Federal Reserve,

and I don't know if there are others, based on these social factors, that changes the whole equation. And so where they maybe would have made an investment or provided some funding, right, Marlo, is that they would have made that loan, but they won't because, hey, it's not politically correct and we're going to get a bad score. Yeah, and by the way, you know, this is being, even though this is being pushed by the left, right,

Let's take the other side and say, okay, the conservatives or Republicans take over Congress and take over the government and they push the pendulum the other side and say, okay, if you want capital now, you need to support pro-life organizations and show that you're doing that, right? And I'm against that just as much as I am against this because it politicizes the capital markets.

My argument is very much to say we need to keep politics out of the capital markets because we as Americans don't want our money weaponized against us. It doesn't matter what side you're on. Explain it. Drill this down to the average person. You know, some people are enjoying the benefits of being into retirement. They're on a fixed income.

But behind the scenes, if they're buying into a mutual fund, for instance, or something else, I mean, potentially the whole theory is here, you may be getting a lower rate of return. That is your income is less because they've had to do these ESG scores and they're scared of investing in something that might be some more lucrative, right? Right. Yeah. So-

And so you have to think about what are the benefits that you get as an investor by investing in a company. And one of them is a financial return. The other is the ability to vote on matters that come before a corporation. And in the case of a mutual fund, that's what the mutual fund is generally doing.

But then it also gives you a voice with the company, separate from even the proxy that ballot that you vote on measures. And what's happening is with people's retirement, they might be with BlackRock or Vanguard or State Street or one of these other large entities. And if their money is lost,

at one of those entities that is a proponent of ESG, even if their money is not being managed with an ESG strategy, the voice of that entity could be working behind the scenes to push corporations to adopt policies

That we don't agree with or they don't agree with that are political. So, for example, requiring diversity, equity and inclusion training at corporations and pushing, you know, CRT agendas through the corporation, forcing boards to have

certain board member demographic profiles and that are not necessarily in the best interest of the corporation. And so it's the power that has been consolidated at the top of the asset management world that

that has become very dangerous because the voice that has been given to these large investment managers, they are now weaponizing against everyday Americans. And unfortunately, a lot of those assets are in everyday Americans' retirement portfolios. I hope people understand and can understand

can grasp the threat here because this happens right behind the scenes, a proxy vote. You think, ah, you know, I got 200 shares of this company. Well, you don't own a percentage point of this company, but you know what? A big fund like, you know, like a BlackRock can come in there and throw their weight around a little bit. And next thing you know, they get a board member who then insists on this type of stuff. But as a shareholder, as an investor, you're sort of oblivious to it.

but your rate of return doesn't necessarily increase. And this is what I'm concerned about is that I just want people to understand it and be able to see it and have exposure to it.

But if they're going to try to extrapolate this out and then be able to say, hey, states and how you do credit and banks and credit unions, that's where I think it becomes increasingly dangerous, right? I don't know what I don't know. So help me here, Marlon, in understanding what it is we're missing. All right. I attended a board meeting not too long ago where some statistics were provided. And I think this is important for people to understand. In 2015-

there were 59 private investment funds raised globally in the oil and gas sector that raised $46.6 billion. And in 2021, there were only 11 funds raised representing $4.6 billion, a drop of over 90%. And that was right when oil and gas was becoming more profitable.

So why did capital stop going to oil and gas when it was becoming more profitable? And why is it not going there today? This represents a massive opportunity in the United States for investors, but yet money isn't going there.

And so we have a and this is one reason why we have inflation. You can thank ESG for inflation at the gas pump.

because if we were putting more money into oil and gas as investors, then we would be producing more. We'd have a greater supply and the price of gasoline would come down in this country. So it is impacting all of us. ESG is impacting all of us negatively from the inflation associated with not putting enough capital worldwide.

where it would otherwise go if we had free market capitalism. But because of ESG, because of the pledges that some of these asset managers and pension plans have signed on to that says the climate must be saved and therefore we are going to cut off capital to fossil fuel.

it has created a situation where we're having misallocation of capital. We don't have enough capital going where it should go, where it is desperately needed, which is keeping prices up. But it's also people who have not invested in oil and gas have not benefited from the best performing investment sector this year. And that will potentially continue to be the case because oil and gas

provides such a great opportunity for investors. So why are pension plans not taking advantage of that? That is their fiduciary obligation is to make decisions in the best interest of beneficiaries, not political decisions. And that's a huge problem in today's capital markets. Hopefully that's helpful. You're listening to Jason in the House. We'll be back with more of my conversation with Utah Treasurer Marlo Oaks right after this.

Listen to the all-new Brett Baer podcast featuring Common Ground. In-depth talks with lawmakers from opposite sides of the aisle, along with all your Brett Baer favorites like his all-star panel and much more. Available now at foxnewspodcasts.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

So Utah, under your leadership, took the reins and went out there and kind of pushed back on Standard & Poor's, got the whole Utah delegation, the governor, others to sign on to that letter. What have you heard from other states? Is this even on their radar? Oh, yeah. No, it's definitely on their radar. Yeah.

And I think there's general concern. It's becoming heightened. And I think we will continue to see pushback. We will continue to see more people coming out against ESG. It is fundamentally anti-American. It's certainly anti-free market capitalism.

And that's really, if you think about climate change or any other problem that we face, the United States has a very, actually an unprecedented history of innovation. And what is being forced upon us through ESG is the opposite. It is, we are punishing ourselves saying we're not gonna, in the case of fossil fuels, we're not gonna put money into fossil fuels.

but that does not create innovation. We're just punishing ourselves and there's no other alternative. We don't have any other alternative to go to. So this talk of getting away from fossil fuels is premature and the market will take care of that once there is an alternative source of power. But in the meantime, we're cutting off the,

This avenue of innovation, we're putting on more regulation. Regulation is the antithesis of innovation. If we want to solve a problem, if we want to find a solution to climate change, we should have less regulation and more innovation, more impact investors, people that are looking to solve the problem, not punish us all for using fossil fuel when there's no other alternative. Right.

No, very well said. And look, if there's somebody who feels like, hey, you know what, I am all about climate change and I want to invest in these types of companies. Hey, that's a whole different equation. There are funds that you can go make those types of investments.

but don't punish the other ones who are trying to find innovative clean coal technologies or how do we make gas more efficient and cleaner burning? I mean, look at the leaps and bounds and the gains that we've had over the decades. It's because people make an investment into the future to make something better, cleaner, more efficient, more effective. Right. And this talk of a transition to net zero,

That's what the markets do. When there is a viable solution or there are viable alternatives. So, for example, natural gas is a great alternative. Our natural gas in the United States burns 40% cleaner than Russian natural gas. So if you're really concerned about the climate, let's start there and let's export U.S. natural gas to replace Russian natural gas, help our European allies, China,

who are dependent on Russian natural gas. Well, if we exported U.S. natural gas, that's going to clean up the environment. It will also help our allies, and it will keep our businesses, our fossil fuel companies in business, which is a strategic national security issue. We've got to have these industries that are really the foundation of our economy.

And the inflation that we're seeing throughout the economy is a big result of that is from fossil fuels and this attack on fossil fuels. Yeah, it really is amazing to me with those who claim to be the most strident of, you know, that really we have to. Everything is about climate change.

And then you think, okay, but then like with the Paris Climate Accord and those types of things, no limitations on cleanliness or production levels in China and other places. So who's the biggest polluter in the world? It's China. But are we going to sign an agreement where they don't have to abide by it? It's just ridiculous. And then you're right. We have, as a planet, the cleanest natural gas ever.

And so your comparison versus Russia, oh, well, it's just, you know, we're fine with them doing it. We just don't want to do it. I mean, that's just...

That is terribly irresponsible. It makes no sense. It doesn't. And you can't say you're for the environment if you're pushing those kinds of policies. Well, even like the pipeline, right? A pipeline is a cleaner, more efficient, effective way to transport some of these petroleum products. It actually helps the environment. But no, no, you've got to shut down the Keystone Pipeline on day one because heaven forbid we actually do that again.

And fracking actually provided a safer, better way to go out and extract some of this stuff. But, oh, no, we wouldn't want to do that. So...

Let's have everybody pay double the price at the fuel pump. That's what it feels like, at least. No, that's exactly right. It's a losing strategy. And Congressman John Curtis in the state of Utah, I think, has done some very important work. And he had indicated, I've heard him say this, that if we replaced –

Russian natural gas and Chinese coal with U.S. natural gas, we would reduce greenhouse gas emissions by more than what was in the Green New Deal.

That's interesting. Yeah.

which was set up, Elizabeth Warren was the one that was advocating this. It was pushed through the Obama administration. Initially, it was going to have a budget bigger than the Securities and Exchange Commission. And the idea was that we were going to create this CFPB, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, to protect Americans, you know, the consumers, right?

What's interesting about this is that they funded this and they set this up not as a government entity that is funded by Congress year after year, but they're funding it through the Federal Reserve. And so the limitations that Congress has to be able to see it, be able to expose it, to be able to have hearings and that sort of thing is negligible. And yet they have the ability to act like government. They're just...

not accountable to any elected officials. They all go through the Federal Reserve. So there'll be more about that in the book. I'm not asking you, Marlo, necessarily to talk about that, unless you want to. Well, I think there's a theme here, and that's the weaponization of whether it's government or, in this case, the capital markets with unelected or unaccountable people.

It's very dangerous. They operate in the shadows and nobody knows who they are. And it's exactly right. Let's talk a little bit about Marla Oaks. Let's talk a little bit about how you got in this position because, you know, as a little young kid, you probably didn't grow up and say, hey, I want to be the state treasurer. I'm not aware of anybody who wants to do that. Kind of walk us through the journey and how you ended up there.

Well, even as an older kid, I never said I'm an adult. So, no, it was really, I have to say,

I guess, credit or blame my wife. I'll give her credit because she was involved in politics here in the state of Utah when the last treasurer resigned and saw the process. And so when David Damson resigned and took a role at another entity here in the state,

She knew the process. And so we called to help the deputy treasurer, who's a friend of mine, just ask him how could we help with his campaign? Because, of course, he's going to run. But he said, I'm not political. I'm not going to run. And he said, you ought to run. And I said, I'm not political. I'm not doing that. But once I started looking into it,

the role, I realized that it fit my experience really well. And I was hoping that I would find somebody else who had applied at the time and had the right credentials and background. And I just didn't see that. And so it kind of ate at me. So when you got to school, you went to school, kind of walk us through school to being treasurer in a

Fairly short amount of time here. Yeah. So I went to school economics at Brigham Young University and got a job in Hong Kong, actually. Just thought it would be helpful to have international work experience. I'd served a mission in Hong Kong before.

So they knew the city. And then from that experience, I really wanted to get into investment management. And so I moved from banking to investment management and spent about 17 and a half years overseeing large institutional investment portfolios. And then went back into banking, investment banking for the last seven, eight years.

And then when the opportunity arose for the treasurer's role, I really saw that it was an investment management and investment banking role. And investment management is probably the most difficult part of that job if you don't have the background in it because it's very technical. Like a state of Utah. I mean, look, we're a smaller state compared. Give us a size and a range of...

I don't know if you can compare us to some of the behemoths like Texas or California or New York, but how big a portfolio, how much money are you managing at any given time? Yeah, so within the treasurer's office directly, we have about $27 billion in

And then at the retirement system, Utah Retirement Systems, there's about $50 billion. And then I also am the chair of the CITFO. It's kind of an education portfolio that helps education. That's about $3.5 billion. So altogether, with the portfolios that I directly oversee and then sit on the board of, that's what, $80 billion.

80 billion, something like that. And we're a small state. So you start to understand the gravity of how big this is. You know, Devin Nunes, people know Devin Nunes, the congressman from California, former congressman from California for his Intel committee, but he was on the ways and means committee also. And when I was in Congress, I worked with him to try to expose and get the states to tell us

What sorts of rate of return do they expect on their retirement systems? How well-funded or underfunded are these? Utah, I remember it was State Senator John Valentine and others really took some really smart moves where they changed our retirement systems.

So that it's a defined contribution, not a defined benefit plan. But a lot of states never did make that transition. And I think one of the greatest financial liabilities we have in this country are these

underfunded or unfunded obligations on their retirement systems, like for instance in Illinois, where the number is so large. And they go out and tout to their investors that they're going to get an 8% return, and then they come up with a 1.5% return

I'm just using it as an illustration. And suddenly they just keep going on, but there's no exposure and no accountability. How big is that problem overall? Oh, it's a huge problem. It's a significant problem. And unfortunately, ESG makes it worse because when you politicize these pension plans, it

and you decide that you're going to use the capital for something other than the financial return, which is the fiduciary standard, you're setting yourself up for lower return or higher volatility or both.

And so that is it just exacerbates the problem. And I think it's something that really these blue states need to think long and hard about. It's not just hurting them. It's hurting all of us.

Well, and I think when you look at the dollars, history will show that over the last couple of years, whether it was TARP, the Troubled Asset Relief Program, or whatever the P standed for, and you look at COVID, these were the big, major excuses. You know, I wrote a book, They Never Let a Crisis Go to Waste. You should...

If people are fascinated by this, you should go look at this. These are the types of major crises that come our way. And then those are used as excuses to pass multi-trillion dollar bills to

Guess what, folks? Doesn't really go to solve the problem that goes to help bail out states and do these other things. So by the tens of billions, dollars were flowing to the states to help them put a bandaid on something that they created by not making difficult decisions like Utah did go to define contribution as opposed to a defined benefit. And then, you know, you have this ongoing problem. Yes. You're listening to Jason in the house. We'll be back with more right after this.

marlo oaks utah state treasurer i have to ask you a few questions these are rapid questions they're personal questions you this is where everybody gets into trouble so i'm just warning you it's gonna happen i don't care how many bonds you've looked at and all that this is where we're really gonna find out about what marlo oaks is all about all right so what's the first concert you attended monkeys

The Monkees. All right, that's the first time we've had the Monkees. Where were they playing? Were they like up at Lagoon or where were they? Yeah, Lagoon. Yeah, it was at Lagoon. So for those of you that aren't Utahns, we have a place in Utah. It's sort of our – how do you describe it? It's like it's our place. It's like an amusement park. Yeah, it's like Magic Mountain. You know, it's an amusement park, and it really is fun. And there are a lot of acts. Like we were talking about with my son and I, we were talking about –

How I think, you know, the Beach Boys used to play there back in the day. And I think Led Zeppelin came through there back in the day. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong on that one. But the Monkees, that's a pretty good one. All right. What was your high school mascot? The Thunderbirds.

Okay, well, that's better than most. You know, here in Utah, we get some like, you know, the beat diggers. Makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense to us here in Utah. Outside of Utah, they cannot figure that one out, but that's okay. I came across the Templars Manti. Oh, well, is the Templars. I thought that was pretty interesting.

Well, somebody can fact check me on this, but I know it's true because back in the day when I went to high school in Arizona, we used to play down in Yuma, Arizona, and they have the Yuma Criminals.

And because they have a big federal prison there, they were the Yuma criminals. And I don't know if they've ever changed their name. That's a quick Google search. But they used to be. And maybe they still are the Yuma criminals. That's the best one I've ever heard. All right. What was your very first job? You're growing up. And the first job away from mom and dad, you know, I'm not talking about mowing a lawn. I'm talking about, hey, I had to go report to somebody else. What was that first job?

Hardee's right below campus, you know, right across the street from Provo High School there. Yeah. So Hardee's like burgers and fries. Yes. Good food. That's all I can tell you. Good food. What was life's most embarrassing moment? I remember in elementary school, I think it was like fifth grade or something and serving lunch.

And, um, I slipped and fell or, you know, my hands went into the beans that I was, um, like baked beans that I was serving. And, uh, it's just awful. I was really embarrassing, especially when you're a little kid. Sorry about that. I can tell it still sticks with you. So yeah, those things do. Um, okay. So if you and your wife could have somebody over, you say, Hey, honey, let's, uh,

I got to eat dead or alive. Who would be the one person you'd want to have come over, break bread with and and and share a meal with one night? I'd say Abraham Lincoln. I think he'd be a fascinating person to talk to. Oh, he's just amazing what he went through, the hard decisions and a member of the former House Oversight Committee.

I love telling that story, but that story will have to stay for another day. When he was in the House of Representatives on the committee that I was on, they always thought that was just the coolest thing. Unique talent that nobody knows about. What can Marlo Oaks do that, like, oh, nobody knows I can do that? Oh, my goodness. Well, I can play the cello. Oh, well, that's pretty impressive. That's...

That's not the easiest instrument to play and certainly carrying it back and forth to either school or to lessons. That's kind of a tough go. You're good to go on your parents. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's been a while. I actually was in Wasatch County at their Lincoln Day dinner and there were a couple of cellists playing and I said, hey, can I try it out? And so I handed out a C major scale there. It's been a few years since I actually played.

you know, harnessed up against the cello, but it was, it was kind of nice. All right. Well, you can balance books and play the cello. That's that is talent. Okay. So that leads us to the big question. This podcast always asks pineapple on pizza. Yes or no.

Sure. Why not? Oh, Marlo. You're so liberal in your ability to accept anything from anywhere. That is the wrong answer, and we'll have to explain that more to you off air, but that is just definitely not the right answer. Jalapenos, I got to say.

I like black olives. I like mushrooms, but I don't like wet fruit. That's kind of where I draw the line. Wet fruit. It just doesn't. Put it in a separate bowl. I'll eat it separately. Best advice you ever got? Hmm.

to be nice to everybody because you can never have too many friends. Oh, that's good. See, you've got parents that cared about you. That's a good word to live by, right? The golden rule. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's good. All right, last big important question. Favorite menu item at Taco Bell? Oh, my word.

John Roberts from Fox News claims he's never been to Taco Bell. So I have a duty and an obligation to get with John Roberts, who I did see over the weekend. But I got to see him again and say, all right, John, we're going to run to the board. We're going to the bell.

I think my favorite thing is the sauce, the little sauce packets. Hey, you know what? You can't. I could never answer that question. I plead the fifth. Have you ever taken the sauce and stuffed them in your pockets and walked out of a Taco Bell? Yeah, that may have happened along the way. I'm just saying it may have happened.

Marlo Oaks, the Utah State Treasurer, really helping to lead the way in kind of exposing what ESGs are and how they're affecting our everyday life. Whether you realize it or not, they have an effect on us.

And I'm glad to see the state of Utah under your leadership leading the way and exposing this and trying to change the way because if this keeps continuing, there will be increased numbers of problems. So, Marlo, thanks for joining us on the Jason Laos podcast.

Thank you. And I really do believe that this is an American issue. It's not a partisan issue. It really should be people that care. If people care about America and our American way of life, our Constitution, our free markets, they will be against ESG. And I think we're seeing the impact of ESG today on the economy. And that's

one reason, big reason why is the misallocation of capital and inflation and all the other problems. But there's more to it. So thank you. Well, thanks for illuminating. I think it is illuminating for a lot of people. That's I appreciate you taking the time. So Marlo Oaks, thanks again for joining us. Take care. All right. I can't thank Marlo Oaks enough. What a what a great guy. I mean, a super talent and very insightful. And, you know, we need people like that to go in and

dig under the hood and go figure out what's going on or not going on. And this is a really important critical issue. So I want to thank Marlo Oaks again for doing that. And I want to thank you for listening to Jason in the House podcast. Hope you subscribe to it. Hope you rate it. Hope you do everything positive that you can about it. But thanks for joining us. You can go over to foxnewspodcast.com to learn more about other podcasts. A lot of good ones out there.

And I hope you're able to join us next week. I'm Jason Chaffetz, and this has been Jason in the House.