Trey Gowdy: Golf, Criminal Justice, Congress & Everything In Between
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Well, welcome to the Jason in the House podcast. I'm Jason Chaffetz, and this week we're going to give you some thoughts on the news and stuff that's percolating up there in the news world. But then we're also going to highlight some of the stupid, because you know what? There's always somebody doing something stupid somewhere. And then we're going to have a conversation with one of my good friends, Trey Gowdy. Trey Gowdy, who I served with in the United States Congress. We're both...

Fox News contributors now and I think it'll be good to call up Trey and just kind of reminisce about some of the stories and learn a little bit more about Trey. What is it that he did? How did he grow up and become just this prolific prosecutor and

And a little bit about some of our time in Congress. So we'll be dialing up Trey Gowdy here. But let's first talk a little bit about some of the stuff that's happened in the news. And I want to get things kicked off by, you know, in California, there was a lot of news going on in the last few weeks. But in California, there was an oil spill. And look, it's never good to have a commercial oil spill. Things happen to the environment, to the sea life. No doubt about it.

But I also had my brother. He went out to California, happened to have scheduled some time on the beaches of Southern California, of which they were closed and they had people out in hazmat suits and just making a big to-do about it. Now, you don't want anybody to get hurt. You want to be safe and secure. I get that.

But when you really start looking at the spill that happened there in California, and then you look, start doing some research about it, I was fascinated by this. It brought me back to one of the very first hearings I ever did in Congress.

And what we found was I was in the Natural Resources Committee and Ted Danson, cheers fame, the actor. And I think he's a very good actor. He was testifying. Democrats were in charge. Democrats had the House and Senate, the presidency, and they like to bring in celebrities. And so we were having a hearing about oil in the ocean.

And I learned quite a bit in that hearing. And Ted Danson was making the point that, you know, we really got to cut back on oil spills and boats, you know, that are spilling oil. Now, Ted Danson happens to have a boat, and he said he wasn't willing to give it up. And I talked to him afterwards. I had asked him some question, and Ted Danson said, you know, listen, it sounds like you gave me a gotcha question. And I said, yeah, I did.

And he said, well, look, you know, look, I'm just trying to make a difference here. And he was super nice. He and his wife were there. Super nice guy. I give him huge kudos for being involved and engaged. And

But I started to learn about the seepage that happens in the ocean. And listen to this quote. This comes from LiveScience.com. Quote, there is effectively an oil spill every day at coal oil point, COP,

the natural seeps off Santa Barbara, which is California, where 20 to 25 tons of oil have leaked from the seafloor each day for the last several hundred thousand years. So I hate to break it to the environmentalists, but you know what? There's an awful lot of oil and it happens naturally.

And it goes into the ocean naturally. Now, let's say not exacerbate the problem with the man-made stuff, but for all the greenies out there, let's understand that the mixture there in the ocean has an awful lot of oil in it because the

If you're going to put 20 to 25 tons of oil into the Southern California waters off the coast of Santa Barbara and have done so for several hundred thousand years, that's kind of an important point to bring up. All right, next thing I want to talk about that's been in the news is

This is really, I think it's very telling about the sort of two Americas that we have here. And Dave Chappelle, look, I'm not going to encourage you to go see something that you're going to be offensive to you. But I got to tell you, Dave Chappelle making waves with his candid talk, offending literally everybody. And some people are triggered by that. Be quiet.

If you're going to go see Dave Chappelle or watch his special, you will probably be offended really quickly. But what I thought was very interesting, and I saw this, Josh Jordan had put this up on a thread on Twitter under Numbers Muncher, and it's a graphic. The first one is a graphic of Dr. Fauci. Now, Fauci, I mean, everybody's got an opinion about Dr. Fauci. But then we have Dr. Fauci on the Rotten Tomatoes.

The tomato meter had it at 91% about Dr. Fauci and the audience score at 4%. So basically the elites, the critics, oh yes, we love Dr. Fauci. But if you actually ask the public, the people who actually watch this stuff with a hundred plus ratings, only 4% actually liked what Dr. Fauci had to say. Then you compare and contrast it to Dave Chappelle.

Dave Chappelle, the closer over a thousand ratings. The audience gave it a 97%. They loved it. Tomato meter, 33%. Oh no, he's bad. He's evil. He's saying things he shouldn't be saying.

It just shows the huge contrast, right? The difference between the elitism who thinks, oh yes, Fauci's great, but the public who's kind of fed up with him, doesn't believe him at this point. And Dave Chappelle, who's speaking a lot of truth out there, albeit aggressive and ridden with swear words and everything you could possibly think.

audience loves it and critics hate it. And I think that is so telling about where we are today as a nation. Maybe it's not groundbreaking news, but you know, very telling. All right, time to bring on the stupid because you know what? There's always somebody doing something stupid somewhere. We got to give kudos to Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom who survived the recall effort because a couple of weeks ago,

He, according to CBS News, quote, California became the first state to say large department stores must display products like toys and toothbrushes in gender neutral ways. Are you kidding me? I mean, it's later on in the story.

Large stores must also have a gender-neutral section to display, quote, a reasonable selection, end quote, of items, quote, regardless of whether they have been traditionally marketed for either girls or for boys, end quote.

That to me is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Why the government thinks they can be involved and engaged in how retailers market their products. Aren't there enough issues like maybe homelessness, maybe veteran suicides, maybe policing, maybe

And the governor is working with the state legislature to make sure that toy makers aren't displaying things based on boys and girls. Come on. That to me is just flat out stupid. The other thing I would add on with his bringing on the stupid is no gas powered lawnmowers for California anymore. There's a lot of grass growing in California. And in the future, they're not going to be able to do gas powered lawnmowers anymore.

Well, good luck with that because that leads to a whole other discussion. And then finally, because we got so much stupid going on, according to FoxNews.com, a Seattle elementary school canceled its annual Halloween parade this year, saying it, quote, marginalizes students of color who do not celebrate the holiday, end quote.

Come on, folks. Halloween? How does... Why do we always have to say that this is about race? You know, as I start to think about holidays out there, this seems to be, in my mind, one that isn't really racially motivated. I think of, like, I don't think Valentine's Day...

is really you know is marginalizing i don't think these others but halloween marginalizes students of color so they decided this uh the seattle elementary school to cancel the pumpkin parade where students can dress up in halloween costumes

And the recommendation came from the racial equity team at Benjamin Franklin Day Elementary School. After five years of discussion, five years they've been talking about this, the school district made a decision. We're canceling the pumpkin parade. That to me is just stupid. You're listening to Jason in the House. We'll be back right after this.

This episode is brought to you by Honda. When you test drive the all-new Prologue EV, there's a lot that can impress you about it. There's the class-leading passenger space, the clean, thoughtful design, and the intuitive technology. But out of everything, what you'll really love most is that it's a Honda. Visit Honda.com slash EV to see offers. All right, rather than doing some stories from the halls of Congress, it's time to...

Call a good friend of mine, somebody I got to know by serving in the United States Congress, Trey Gowdy. You know, I was assigned to the Oversight Committee. I was assigned to the Judiciary Committee. And Trey Gowdy was on both of those. And so we spent an extraordinary amount of time together and became a close and dear friend and somebody that I've shared a lot of experiences with. And I'm thrilled to have him on. So let's give a call to Trey Gowdy. Hello. Hello.

Mr. Gowdy, Mr. Trey Gowdy, this is Jason Chaffetz. I'm so sorry you've reached the wrong number. Well, I knew I should. Why do you keep changing your phone number? Because when I put your name in with a certain number and then block it, which I've done several times, then you go and change the number. This is awkward. Since I have you on the line already...

I thought I'd ask you to join my podcast here and just chat for a little bit, if you're all right with that. Look at the time. I am scheduled to go do a number of things. I can't think of them right this second, but I've made a lot of commitments today. No, I'd be happy to, Jason. Well, that's a lot. I know you probably have a tea time. I know you probably have a tea time.

I do have a tee time today. I'll say this, though, JC. I play less golf than I ever have before in life. I only get to play four or five times a week now. Why are you playing less? I mean, I know it's your passion. I know you love it. By the way, what's your handicap these days? That's a very sensitive question. That's like asking somebody how much they weigh. I actually played...

And our senior club championship this past weekend. So I just got through playing in a tournament and those scores count more. So I think my handicap, unfortunately, is probably going to go down right now. It's about a three. The senior tour. How old are you?

You know, that's a great question. Since we're not letting sensitivity slow us down at this point. Apparently not. Let me go get a scale, too, so I can tell you how much I weigh. The year I turned 50, they lowered the age to 50, which is the same with the Senior Champions Tour and almost every other amateur tournament.

Tour 50 is considered a senior. So my club did that. I played in it. I did well. I won it. And then they upped the age to 55. So I didn't play in it for five years. And then the year I turned 55, it was after the tournament. So I couldn't play in it that year. Last year, I was given a speech. This is the first year I have been able to defend that title that I got seven years ago. So I'm 57. I won it when I was 50. Are you going to win?

I did win it this weekend. What's Vegas is over and under on this. Are you going to win this one? I won it. It was this past weekend. Oh, you did? All right. I'm so modest. I don't feel comfortable talking about it unless you have a free hour, hour and a half.

I'll be happy to go shot by shot if you'd like me to. Yeah, anytime you beat Mick Mulvaney or somebody like that, you were always slow to just bring it up while we were there in Congress. It took you all of, I don't know, two seconds to bring it up?

I'd rather beat Mick than eat. And, you know, once you become so accustomed to doing something, it's only newsworthy if you don't do it. So it's only newsworthy when Mick beats me. You know what he does? He gives me a shirt. He goes in the pro shop and buys a shirt for me.

for whatever course he's beaten me on. So I only have two shirts. They are nice, but I only have two. He's getting better, though. He hurt, you know, he's a little bit younger than I am. He's just now experiencing elbow pain, shoulder pain, back pain. So he's been on the shelf for a little while.

Mick Mulvaney, of course, being a member of Congress when we both served. But then he was the perpetual acting chief of staff for Donald Trump. I always thought that was an interesting strategy to always be the acting chief of staff. You know what, though? And I don't blame you for this. You actually skipped over how he got in the administration. He went over to run OMB, the Office of Management and Budget.

And I thought he was perfect for, and I would say the same thing if Mick were on the call with us right now, and he may be for all I know. I thought he was perfect for that job. Chief of staff is tough. It's tough. It requires an unusual skill set. Mick loves numbers, loves economics. I don't know that he loves day-to-day work.

you know, dumpster fires and politics. Yeah. Mick was wicked smart in terms of numbers and budgets and, and you're right. And he was real good. And I think he was a great pick. I was proud of the president that he selected him for that, but all right, so let's go back and talk a little bit more about Trey Gowdy. So when did you get this passion for golf? Like when did you pick up a club, swing it and say, yeah, I kind of like that.

Well, I played every sport you can play growing up and golf was not my favorite, but it was my dad's. And so I have memories of going to the course with my father. In fact, unfortunately, although I have been in therapy and I'm trying to get this image out of my head before we join the club that we are currently a member of.

My dad would go play this course that allowed you to take your shirt off. And I, I remember what kind of course is this? Well, that's my point. That's my point. Most clubs do not allow you to take your shirt off. I remember my, and it was, I mean, look, it gets to be a hundred degrees in South Carolina. I'm not knocking my old man, but,

I remember he would carry, you know, he's a doctor. So being hydrated and all that stuff's a really big deal. He would literally carry, or I would carry a cooler of water and Gatorade. And I remember my dad taking his shirt off on a hole, uh,

He taught me how to play golf, but I really liked baseball and basketball and almost anything else more than golf. And I played a little bit in high school, did not touch a golf club, as I can recall, in college or law school. And then when Terry was pregnant with our first child, Watson, she wanted...

to go sit by the pool at a little club in Anderson, South Carolina, and the driving range was right beside it. So she would go sit by the pool, and I picked golf back up. So I would have been 25. The way I recall that story is something like, hey, if you're going to take your shirt off, why don't you go over there to the driving range as opposed to hang out by the pool? Is that how that went down? I'm not big on taking my shirt off.

I'm pretty sure it's actually a crime in South Carolina for me to take my shirt off. So, no, I did not inherit that characteristic from my father. I mean, sometimes I'll take mine off when I take a shower, but even usually then I don't. So, no, I don't like sitting there doing nothing.

Except laying on a chair at a pool. To me, that's just the most boring thing in the world. So I think Terry probably said, look, if you're going to sit here and be miserable, go hit golf balls. And probably by the time she got the S out of golf balls, I was already on the range. It made the afternoon much more enjoyable for Terry. I mean, let's be honest. She would much rather hang out by the pool. That makes sense. That makes sense to me.

She'd rather read one of her Christian romance novels. I'm not even sure. I mean, that may be an oxymoron. I don't know. But whatever she was reading, she'd rather do that than hear me complain. I will say this. I've been married.

to that girl for 32 years now, and she has never once complained about me playing golf. And I am sure there are times she wanted to say, but you've played every other day this week. She's never once complained. But I don't hunt. I don't fish. And Watson's a lot better than I am at golf. And when one of your kids gets involved in golf,

We tried to get Abigail involved, but when she found out it was outdoors, she lost interest. Well, Watson is a heck of a player, too. But let's go back to little Trey Gowdy. Did they start calling you Trey right away, or did that come later in life? When did Trey show up?

You know, I've heard my parents tell this story. I quite candidly, while I was around, don't recall the conversation about what my name should be. But I remember my mom wanted to name me after her father. My dad wanted to name me after his uncle. And neither would agree with the other. And you could not be discharged from the hospital until you had a name. So.

I actually heard my mom and dad talking about it even within the past couple of months. It was just a compromise that they would name me after my dad.

But all I've ever been called is Trey. So, I mean, the full name is Harold Watson Gowdy III, which is why Mick and others called me Harold. But no one, I've never been called that. I've never gone by that. And it's been Trey since the day I left the hospital. And so when little Trey Gowdy was growing up, what was the, I mean, your dad was a doctor. I know you're really close to your mom. What were the things that you were doing with your mom growing up that,

I mean, you're still so close to her. What, what couldn't, couldn't stand to be out of her presence. Yeah. I had three sisters. Um, so I had, you know, I was going to be around a female no matter what. I mean, those are my options. My three sisters, my mom, I just, you know, crying, going to school, crying when they dropped me off in Sunday school, you know,

Pretty much cried until my mom came back to get me. I just did not like being away from my mother. And what was it that she was doing? I mean, other than loving you and caring for you, were there things that you did growing up with her that you just didn't do with anybody else? I mean, you know, I was outdoors during daylight.

I just love sports, love being outside. There's just, you know, it's just something about your mom. Nobody will ever love you if you're lucky like your mom does.

And, you know, our wives try. God knows Julie tries. God knows Julie tries. But the reality is they're the first to love us. They are the first to forgive us. They there's just something different about. Look, I mean, I love our two children. Obviously, I love more anything in the world. But.

They're 20. I mean, I can't even remember how old they are. They're like 28. I mean, I'd have to do the math in my head. Terry to Terry, they're still six months old. And there's nothing she wouldn't do for him and talks to it. Doesn't matter what she's doing. They call. She answers.

And I'm sitting there more thinking, well, you know, the Cowboy game will be over within an hour. I didn't really see that FaceTime call. How about I mean, they would want me to watch the end of the game, wouldn't they? They would want you to do that. That's right. They would want. Yes, they would want me to be happy. It's just not. I mean, to this day, you want to get me to do something. You get my mom to ask me or you get Terry to ask me.

Or there are a couple other. You can get Mary Langston to ask me. You could get Sharia to ask me. The answer is more likely to be yes. But if you, my mom has gotten me to do things I never in a million years. The only thing I ever didn't do that I recall that my mom wanted me to do was run for student council. And I still remember it. I still remember how terrible I felt letting my mom down.

Well, I mean, was she the impetus to say, hey, you know, you really should run for Congress? Like, when did that happen? No, no, no, no. She wanted me to get out of the solicitor's office. She wanted me to quit. You know, you see terrible things, Jason. Just I got I got actually contacted through a website this morning by the father of a special needs girl, 11 years old, who was beaten to death.

This has been well over 10 years. I remember that Manolo girl's picture was on my office in Washington the whole time I was there. You just see terrible, terrible, terrible things. So my mom and Terry both said, it's probably time while you have just this slight little remnant of faith left. It's probably time for you to go do something else. But I think my mom would have been really content if I went and

did something else in Spartanburg. She's never pushed me to go into politics. So when little Trey Gowdy was growing up and you got to be like more towards your teenage years, did mom, dad, did they say, we love you, son, but you know what? You got to get a job. You're going to have to do some work. Was it like that? Or did they just kind of let you roam the backwoods of South Carolina all day?

No, both my parents grew up poor. I think the difference is my dad knew they were poor. My mom thought everybody had their dresses made out of feed sacks and toys made out of corn cobs. I think my mom just did not know they were poor, but my dad did. I was working and I was cutting grass.

From my, I, I, however, you're old enough to like not cut your feet off while you're pushing a lawnmower. And then my dad is really big on community and doing things to help other people. So if there was someone in the neighborhood whose yard needed to be cut, he sent me over and this was not a self-propelled or riding lawnmower either, by the way, it was a full blown push. Then I got a paper route, um, when I was 14, um,

And then I bag groceries. I have worked literally from the time I, before I was legally able to work, I've never not worked. So high school is going on. Were you a good student in high school? No, no, I didn't try. Didn't care. I got a long list of regrets, Jason, but up near the top, I love, I love to learn. Now I love to read when I was supposed to be learning and reading and

I, I, the only way my father could motivate me to make even decent grades is he would say, you're not going to play sports. You're not going to play basketball. You're not going to play baseball if you don't make A's and B's. And even then, sometimes, I mean, I made a D in the last math class I took, which was in the 11th grade and have not taken one sentence. But you know what, Jason, in my defense, okay. Yeah.

Why are you putting letters in math equations? When I started seeing like X and Y show up in my math equations, I thought I was in the wrong class. I thought it was numbers. How hard could it be? I mean, there's only 10 numbers, right? So how many different ways can you mix and match them? That was your approach to mathematics? Yeah.

Uh, well, and then they'd say, well, okay, well today we're going to learn how to multiply and divide fractions. Well, I don't want to do that. Why don't you just make it like a whole number? I mean, I, there are other people who are good at math and, and I'm like, I like public speaking. So let me do the public speaking and y'all do the math. So you're going along, you're in high school, but I mean, is it, why did you go to college? I mean,

You just that's what you're supposed to do. That's what mom and dad said you do next. Yeah, that wasn't a very long conversation in my household. It was more of where you're going. I think my dad wanted me to go to a military school called the Citadel. He's big on discipline and having structure.

And as you know, Jason, I'm not big on getting up early in the morning and I don't see the virtue in single gender education. And I actually don't want my hair short. So my pastor talked him into letting me go to Baylor. And I went to Baylor, which is in Waco, Texas, not knowing a single solitary soul. Yeah. Why Baylor?

because my pastor, my pastor said, you know what, Dr. Gowdy, Trey might not thrive at the Citadel. He's been around, you know, women his entire life. It's all he's ever grown up with. And you're going to put him in an all-male environment where he has to get up at 530 in the morning and have short hair. I don't see him thriving in that environment. So you show up at Baylor. What was Baylor like?

Well, it was lonely. My dad drove me out there in a small pickup truck and I had a green wooden army box with all of my possessions in it. And my dad had like a 16 hour drive ahead of him. So I said, you know, dad, I'm fine. The dorm's not open yet. I'm fine. You head on back. I don't want you getting back in the middle of night. So I sat on that green box, waited for the dorm to open, met a guy named Ben Young, who is still a friend to this day.

Met some other wonderful people, Doug Worrell, who now lives in North Carolina, Kevin Gilliland. And then the real, I had met Terry like two months earlier. So you're sitting there missing the most beautiful person you've ever seen in your life. You don't know a soul.

And, you know, Baylor is different. Fraternity doesn't mean the same word at Baylor as it does at another school. I mean, it was a Baptist school back then. There was a curfew back then, although you couldn't tell by tracking my movement. But there was a curfew. And so I decided to try out for a fraternity. And I remember laying in my dorm room. They played this little trick on you. You went through Rush and they came in.

in the middle of the night and said, look, yeah, we're sorry. It just, you know, unprecedentedly high number of applicants, you know, great guys, this class, you know, we're so sorry. We hope you'll try again, you know, next semester. And when they left the room, I remember thinking, okay, maybe I should transfer. I just, I don't know anyone. I missed Terry. And it was a ruse. Obviously they came back in 45 seconds later and said, you know, we're kidding. Get dressed. We're leaving. And,

And it was really meeting the guys that I pledged that fraternity with many, many, many of whom I am still in contact with. They kind of flipped my experience out in Waco, Texas. And had it not been for Terry and wanting to go back home because of her, I would have stayed in Texas. What I mean, you're a pretty conservative guy. Where did that come from?

Like, why? I mean, why not be a liberal guy? Why not be like, where did that underlying Gowdy philosophy? My father would tell you I was. I mean, compared to my dad, I probably am a liberal. My dad is very my dad followed politics a lot. He is like a true doc doctrinaire conservative.

limited government, love Ronald Reagan, love, love, love Ronald Reagan, William F. Buckley Jr. I mean, Sundays, I don't, I remember watching Bill Buckley on Sundays more than I do watching pro football, at least while my dad controlled the television. When I got order and controlled it myself, I didn't watch Bill Buckley, but my dad just loved it. So, and I love to argue. So, yeah,

Whatever debate skills I may or may not have, I honed at the table with my dad and other adults who would come over, and they're probably all to the right of me. So you'd be talking death penalty and gas prices and whatever the topic of the day was? Social issues, role of government, and I like being the devil's advocate because it helps me learn what the weaknesses in my own argument are.

And I just, I remember the first time I could kind of really maybe hold my own with my dad. I mean, obviously my dad's pretty smart. There aren't that many dumb medical doctors. So I remember, you know, thinking, well, you know, I'm holding my own with a pretty smart guy. So college spent a ton of time sitting around just engaging in debate with doctors.

Ben Young is now a PhD. He's a pretty prolific author. He's a Christian apologist. I spent a ton of time. We would watch Ted Koppel when we were freshmen and then have like a two-hour debate after Ted Koppel went off. That's where you hone your debate skills is getting your head beaten in by people that are better at it than you are. You're listening to Jason in the House. We'll be back with more of my conversation with Trey Gowdy right after this.

And so you go along, you get, what'd you get your undergraduate in? Was it history? Yeah, I picked history because I had some AP credit and it was the path of least resistance, but I took more psychology courses than I did any other discipline. Well, I was always impressed and I shouldn't be tooting your own horn there, but the mythology quotes that would come spewing out of you were like,

Unbelievable. I don't know. Were you forced to take that class? You must have loved it because the number of quotes that you can just rattle off the top of your head, it's kind of impressive.

I always loved Greek mythology. And again, I mean, we all have regrets. I mean, I wouldn't do life over again because I like how it turned out. But the stuff I had to read in my 20s and 30s that I had the chance to read in my teens but would rather be out there shooting basketball. Right. I...

I really do regret that I did not. I wish I knew more because, you know, when you have kids and you have a job, it's a tough time to be playing catch up on what you were supposed to read in high school. Yeah, no, it's true. So what what compelled you to say, all right, you know, hey, I actually love this school. Let's do three more years, three more years. Let's do it. I agree.

I want to do law school. Where did that come from? Terry, you came from your mom. Where did that come? No. One of my fraternity brothers was driving down to Houston to take a weekend LSAT prep course. And I said, yeah, I'll go down there with you. And so I sat in the back. He took this LSAT prep course.

You're quite the friend to sit in the back while somebody else is taking one of those courses. Holy cow. Well, he was a good friend, and it's not like we didn't have our evenings to ourselves. He was, you know, when you're, what, 18, 19, 20? I mean, can I sit here and stare at a wall for eight hours so we can go do something fun at night? Yeah, that's a great trade-off. Yeah.

You're pretty good at that. I remember I only picked two colleges, two law schools. So I filled out the LSAT, you know, request to take the LSAT, which is the law school admission test. And then you got to say, okay, where do you want your scores to go? And so I picked the University of South Carolina. And then I picked one other school because my buddy picked it, Mississippi. My buddy picked it. I picked it.

I took the LSAT, applied to USC Law School, got in, got a small little scholarship. I don't know. It wasn't based on grades. It must have been based on LSAT score, but it was not based on grades. But I had no interest in going to law school. So I wrote him back and said, thanks, but no thanks. I was actually going to Las Cruces, New Mexico. I painted houses the year I graduated college with Kevin Gilliland, who's now a clinical psychologist in Dallas. We painted houses.

apartments. We both graduated, sat by each other during graduation. And it's kind of like that chapter of life is ending. You're out of college. We tried to prolong it. So we painted houses together that summer. And then he was going to grad school in California in psychology. I had already said, look, I'm not going to law school. I was going to build houses with Robert Thornton in Las Cruces, New Mexico. And then one of my friend's mom's

said, you know, that you really need to reevaluate this. You need to think about what you're going to do in life. And she was the most loving. She was a lot like my mom. I went on family vacation with them and she just sat me down and said, what are you going to do with your life? You can't work construction and bounce from town to town with one of your fraternity brothers. And I thought, well, why not? But

She talked me into going to law school. So I had to go to my dad and say, Hey, look, dad, I got good news and bad news. The bad news is I turned that scholarship down. The good news is I probably am not going to like bang my thumb on a hammer because I've decided not to go do construction in Las Cruces, New Mexico. And so to my dad who grew up poor,

$3,000? I mean, I should have asked for a kidney instead of asking for $3,000. But I remember he went and got this white checkbook. His checks were white. He went and wrote this check, $3,000, University of South Carolina School of Law, and said, happy to help, good luck. And I made the decision to go to law school, I think, maybe about 10 days before classes started.

Well, I had no house, no apartment, didn't have the books, didn't know a soul in my law school class. Was there an attorney that you looked to or like, hey, yeah, I kind of want to be like that person? No, it's more being a history major, but not really knowing a whole lot of history. Because again, my interest was in psychology, but I couldn't get a psychology degree because I couldn't pass testing and measurement.

And you had to pass testing and measurement. I mean, had I been able to pass that relatively easy math class, testing and measurement? Yeah, there's numbers and letters next to each other. That gets to be confusing. I went and petitioned the dean.

to let me graduate with no math. And I remember he looked at me and said, you know, Trey, our athletes take this thing called finite math and they, they do very well. Are you sure you don't want to try finite math? I said, Dean, it was Dean Bolan. I said, Dean, I can't, I can't pass a math class. So he said, okay, you're going to have to pass two logic classes in the philosophy department. I'm going to make it tough on you. Two logic classes.

Instead of finite math, which is basically, can you balance your checkbook? And I said, Don, I'll take the two philosophy courses. If I'd been able to pass SESCA measurement, I may have gone with Kevin to California and tried to go into graduate work in psychology.

Okay, so you go the law school route and then there's lots of different ways. Our son just got done with law school and he thought maybe he'd do litigation. He thought maybe he'd do, ended up in the corporate side. But why do the criminal side? Why do the prosecution stuff that you did for a couple of decades? Well, I clerked for a federal judge.

which was a huge break. And that is a huge break if you get the clerk at all and the clerk for a federal judge. And then I was able to watch the U.S. attorneys and I was just mesmerized. The thought of working on behalf of the United States prosecuting criminal cases and

Just became the only thing I wanted to do. So those jobs are hard to come by. That federal judge helped me a lot. Some other people helped me a lot. But once you get criminal work kind of in your blood, it's hard to get it out. But you, I mean, you rose to, I mean, you did some amazing things and hard things, difficult things. What is it about

little Trey Gowdy that kind of blossomed up and was going to go paint houses in Las Cruces, New Mexico and said, yeah, I'm going to take this horrific case and prosecutor. Like what was the difference between you and everybody else that maybe wanted to do that? Um, I mean, you have to have somebody in your life that kind of gives you the confidence that you can. Um, and you, you have to overcome self-doubt and then self-awareness and

Okay, I love basketball more than anything in the world. I'm never going to make a living playing basketball. So what am I okay at that I also enjoy? I've never been afraid of public speaking. Some people are motivated by a desire for success. I am not. I am motivated by a fear of failure. So I like to overprepare.

And it just, the challenge of persuading 12 people just became the love of my life. I just, I was never more comfortable than I was in front of 12 people trying to move them from a presumption of innocence to beyond a reasonable doubt. So I might not be good at anything else, but I found what I loved and was okay at. Your first case, when you finally got

All the paperwork, and they said, all right, Trey, this one's yours. What was that like? What happened? Yeah, I hadn't been there very long. I was actually telling Sharia Clark. She is now at the U.S. Attorney's Office. There's this lawyer who is fantastic, best lawyer I've ever seen named David Stevens. And I thought that he would kind of mentor me, and I would get to watch him. And he handed me a file on a Friday and said, okay, you're going to try this case. And I said, okay, when's jury selection? Monday. Okay.

So I had really not enough time to panic. I had two days to get ready. And that was my first trial was in U.S. District Court, which is rare. Usually you start off in Magistrate's Court or State Court. My first trial was in federal court in front of the judge that I clerked for, who had very high expectations for his law clerks. And I'm sure I was terrible, Jason. I'm sure I was terrible.

But with trial work, the only way to get better at it is to do it. It doesn't matter how well you know the rules and procedures. You have to stand in front of 12 people who did not go to law school and move them. And you got to practice it. Okay. So you practice it. But boy, I mean, you do it better than anybody else I know. Yeah.

Why are you so much better at it than a lot of people who try it and do it? And quite frankly, they aren't that impressive. Well, thank you for saying that. I mean, I wish I were better. I think I am good at seeing weakness. I am good at seeing where I would have doubt.

And if I can resolve my own doubt. So, you know, most prosecutors sit there and think, well, why would a jury not believe a police officer? Well, the police officer said this. Of course, the jury is going to believe it. And my mind is more, OK, what if they don't? What if they don't believe the bank teller who said, I got a clear look at the robber? How else can I prove it? I saw doubt everywhere.

And so if I could plus up the doubt in my own mind, I felt like I could plus it up in the jury's mind. You have to think like a defense attorney. And to use a political analogy, I think sometimes the best conservatives spend a lot of time trying to figure out why progressives think what they think.

If you can understand where the other side is coming from, it makes you a more effective advocate. And the weakness I saw some prosecutors have is they became myopic. All they saw was the good stuff in their own case. They never saw the weaknesses. And I would lay awake at night obsessing about the weaknesses. So, and you and I have talked about this, but for the folks that are listening in here, compare and contrast that experience with

with Congress because it's kind of not the same. Yeah, no comparison. You and I, JC, what I tell people all the time, I met a lot of wonderful people, one of whom I'm talking to right now. Look, I loved a lot of the people I met, but in terms of comparing the jobs,

You know, if I were to say to you in court, okay, Jason, this is a really important witness. Enjoy your next five minutes. You would look at me and say, you're going to give me five minutes to examine a forensic pathologist, a ballistics expert, a psychiatrist. Are you kidding me? Five minutes. That's all the time you and I got. And if that, if that is barely time to make a single point, it's certainly not time to make every point. And again,

The thing I love about the justice system is not only do you have to reach the right result, but you have to do it the right way. The way you do it matters. And in politics, too often winning is the only thing that matters. And it doesn't matter how you do it. And I just was never going to thrive in an environment like that.

Well, I think you thrived. I think a lot of people would argue that you thrived. I think the frustration that I felt and I know you felt and others like, you know, John Ratcliffe and other just really good quality people who were there for all the right reasons is, and I get this and I know you do as you travel around the country, that people just don't feel like there's any sort of conclusion or justice. That we can make the case, point things out, grill people,

but then nothing happens. Yeah, and so I go back to the number one rule in the courtroom is set reasonable expectations. You should never tell the jury, I'm going to prove this, that, and the other if you cannot do it. And sometimes...

In Congress, we would set expectations. I don't know. Were you ever stopped at the grocery store and someone asked why X was not in jail? Yeah. I could do that today and I'll have the same experience. And how satisfying was it when you told that person, well, actually, no member of Congress can put anyone in jail for anything? Yeah.

Yeah, I would always tell them, I say, you know, they don't give us handcuffs, nor should they, but, you know, sunlight's the best disinfectant. I mean, but at some point when something is so...

obvious and there's so you know the the times i'd get the most frustrated we have the inspector general you know a guy like michael horowitz do a thorough report do people spend a year a whole team of them putting it together we'd have hearings we'd have witnesses and then you'd hand it over to the department of justice and it just just fizzles just just wait it out then nothing happened you're 100 correct

Reasonable expectations. You know, Horowitz Horowitz is great. Horowitz can't prosecute anyone. He has to refer it to someone else. And they may not like the answer, but there's a difference between me being disappointed in what you cannot do and me thinking that you can do it, but that you're choosing not to. And you and I couldn't put anyone in jail for anything. Right.

We also said we were going to what tear out Obamacare root branch and stem or whatever that was that we were going to defund this and defund that. And, and,

I think the voters would have rewarded us more had we said this is what we would like to do, but we're currently not able to do it. And this is why we think it is the right thing to do for the following reasons. But we skipped all that because it's nuance and it's hard to fundraise off of. This is what we would like to do. It's easier to fundraise off of. This is what we're going to do. Best thing about Congress. Worst thing about Congress from your vantage point. Having looked looking back at the years that you were there.

Best thing meeting people I otherwise never would have met. I never would have met you. I never would have met Tim Scott. I never would have met McCarthy and Johnny Ratcliffe and Tulsi Gabbard and Joey Kennedy and Peter Welch. I never, never would have met. Worst thing being away from home and just have eight years. You can't get back. Yeah. I think that was the tough, by far the toughest part for me is, uh,

I actually love the work. I love being in the fight. But, you know, people didn't realize that in Utah, I was, you know, four and a half hours on an airplane, two time zones. And when I became chairman, I, you know, I was out doing all the fundraising and all that. I was home three or four days a month. And when you love your wife and adore your kids, that's that lifestyle where that that tears you apart.

And you blink your eyes and your kids are in college or law school or completely out of the house. And that time is gone. You can't, I can go back and read books on Greek mythology. I cannot go back and watch my kids' high school golf matches. Right. So what's the future for Trey? You got a show, uh, Sunday nights, um, and you've done books and you're going to do some more, right?

Well, I've written, I wrote one with Tim, then I wrote one, and I've got another one coming out next year. And then I think I'm probably going to slide over into the psychological crime genre, which I love.

I have a lot of history I can draw from there. So I prospect of writing a fiction book is appealing to me. Got podcasts, teach class at law school, teach class at Wofford College with Sharia. Don't practice a ton of law, but still can if I wanted to. So obviously I have a law license. It is a busy time, but I love the variety.

And it I still talk to Tim. I just got a text from Kevin right before you and I started doing this. Still get to talk to our friends that are there and have a sense of what's going on, but don't have to do it ourselves. And it's just a different season of life. And I could not enjoy it more. What's Terry think about having you home all the time now?

Well, she is the single sweetest human being on the face of the earth. So how would I really know? I mean, she acts like she's happy to have me home, but you've been around me a lot. I mean, is that real? I mean, she's the sweetest person in the world, and I'm the most cynical, sarcastic person in the world. I mean, I...

That's true. I agree with all of that. Nobody's arguing with you on those points. I kept waiting for you to say, oh, no, you're not the worst, Trey. Yeah, that's about right. I think she's happy. She teaches first grade. She loves what she does.

I love being here in Spartanburg. It's not always easy to stick around in the town you grew up in. I mean, I still bump into teachers that have a shocked look on their face. That you're an author? That you wrote a book?

That I read a book. I mean, I can't count the number of ones that have said, you know, we always thought you'd be in the criminal justice system. We just didn't know which side. Yeah, that's true. I mean, Spartanburg's, yeah, it's a decent sized cities, but it's not that big. I mean. Oh, no. Oh, no. I mean, no, I live on the same side of town I grew up on.

I grocery shop at the same complex where I bag groceries. It's a different grocery store, but I mean, it's every time I drop down a road, I tell my kids and then I'll throw a paper here and there was a dog here and they're so sick of hearing it. But yeah,

Oh, well, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. Well, and I know that to be true because I know you've had, I don't know how many umpteen offers to go do this, to go do that. And it was going to take you away from your family. And you're like, no, I don't want to go spend the night somewhere else. I just want to be home. And so you want to eat that spaghetti on Saturday night. I get it. And Sunday and Monday. I would eat spaghetti every night. Yeah.

If nothing else, Trey Gowdy is a man of – he likes a pattern. He likes the consistency, don't you? You don't want to have any – Oh, my heavens. He would eat the same thing every day. Can't we add a little variety to your diet here, brother?

I just got back from New York and, you know, of course, Terry wants to hear all about the trip. I said, I mean, honey, the hotel was beautiful. I was staying in a beautiful part of the city, but I just, I missed my routine. I had to walk to go get coffee and I didn't, it wasn't the same coffee I had, you know, the day before. No, I would eat the exact same thing for every meal the rest of my life. If I could breakfast and dinner.

At the same time, in the same place. Yes, yes. Same seat. Yes. Same routine. I have the same routine every night. I close this blind. I close that blind. I mean, I think the story of Rain Man may have been done after me. I don't know.

I think the funniest thing before we get to the final part here, I think the funniest thing to me was when you would want to sit somewhere by yourself and eat, say, breakfast, and then somebody would come and sit down and say, do you mind my sitting and sharing this meal with you? And I just know in the back of your mind, you're thinking, yes, I do mind. I do not want you to sit down and share this meal with me.

Well, my favorite was the guys and gals at the restaurant where you and I ate. They knew that I liked to be by myself. So they would take the chair away. So it was a table for two, but they would take the chair away. What was really great is when people would come up, look, and say – my favorite was, look, I know you want to be alone, but –

okay just stop with the i know you want to be alone just stop there they would go get a chair and pull it up and i'm sitting there thinking i mean not that i'm anti i i don't know maybe i'm antisocial i don't know it's just dinner dinner was usually dinner was usually a group i mean that was usually grouped and it was what i mean every night it was just fun and funny and i mean it was just

There were a small group of people, but it was always entertaining and always just delightful and kept ourselves out of trouble and everything else. But breakfast, not really the time to hang out with Trey Gowdy.

And there were certain members or certain people that would come and sit with you. And I'd walk by and I'd glance and I'd see you over there and they'd see that. And I just, I just thought this just totally makes my day. I am such a, I will just love the rest of this day just because that person is sitting there with Trey while he's trying to read the newspaper. And I just made me laugh. Nobody who's listening is probably going to understand or appreciate it, but yeah,

It does put a smile on my face. That's for sure. Well, I'm glad that you took some joy out of it. I did not. Probably too much glee. Probably too much glee. Well, you know, I never went to conference. I just some people like wake up in a happy chipper mood like Terry. Mary Langston always in a good mood. It takes me a little while.

I want to talk to people. And when I say a little while, like kind of mid-afternoon. Yeah, I was going to say like lunchtime. Yeah, just right after lunch, I'm ready for someone to say, you know, how are you? And until then, I'm just kind of content being a recluse.

No, look, you slept, you were an office dweller. I slept in my office as well. And I, you know, we'd be in there doing the rigorous workout that I did. And you'd shuffle in with your little flip flops and a little beanie hat over your head. And there's nothing better than watching somebody come by, slap you on the back and say, Hey, good morning. Like, Oh, I know he hates that. I just know he hates it. Well, you make it sound like I'm like a sociopath.

I just, I don't know. Between 6 a.m. and noon, pretty much, yeah. It broke the routine. And when the routine was broken, I felt like I needed to start all over again. I'm better than I was. I'm better than I was. Actually, I'm not. You keep telling yourself that because, no. It's getting worse, not better. I get it. I get it.

It's like when you go on the road, all you really want to do is get a pizza, watch ESPN, watch sports, and it just, anyway, cracks me up. All right, I need to ask you a few quick questions because I don't care how many cases you prosecuted along the way. I don't know if you're ready for these questions. Are you ready? If I'm not, I have my lawyer on speed dial. All right, we'll go for the first concert you attended. The Daz Band when I was in college.

What was your high school mascot? The Vikings. Because there were a lot of Vikings in Spartanburg, weren't there?

That makes a lot of sense to me. More than Utah. Yeah, that's true. We do have Vikings here in Utah, but we got like beat diggers. That's one of my favorite. We got some beat diggers. And that's legit because those people, they, anyway, yeah, beat diggers. Yeah, Vikings, South Carolina. Makes sense. All right. Who was your first celebrity crush? Brooke Shields, probably. Brooke Shields or Whitney Houston. Favorite vegetable? Vegetable.

Any, no. Can you name a vegetable? Yeah, I eat them all the time. I'm just sitting here thinking my wife would be laughing because it doesn't matter what field peas, black eyed peas. Uh, when she asked me what I want and I can't have spaghetti, I will list her like eight things, all that fall in what she calls the legume family. Uh,

I would say, um, feel peace. So you, you, you've been on television a lot. Um, you get recognized. Um, do you have people that recognize you, but don't recognize you as Trey Gowdy? They think you're some other person that they know or some other celebrity. So who is that person that people say, Oh yeah, that's who, who do they think you actually are?

I don't have that a lot. What I usually get is, has anyone ever told you you look like Trey Gowdy? I get that a lot more than I get, you know, you look like Pee Wee Herman or I know you get Donny Osmond a lot. I don't.

I wish I were confused with real famous celebrities. I would get Ralph Macchio. Ralph Macchio was... Oh, my heavens. That was the one where people were like, oh, gosh. And my favorite was in Nashville. I was in an airport just changing planes, and a guy came up to me and said, hey, Jason. And I said, yeah. And he said, hey, man, thanks for the help. And I'm looking at him like, what are we talking about here? And he said,

He said, well, you're my dentist. And I said, no, I'm actually not your dentist. Yes, you are. He was like arguing with me. And I said, well, look, I was in the United States Congress. I was in Congress at the time. I'm in the United States Congress. He said, no, you're not. What are you talking about, man? You just changed. You just filled my filling like three weeks ago. He would not let go of it, would not believe me that I was not his dentist, which I thought was pretty funny.

Why didn't you just show him your transcript from college? And then he would know that there's no way that dude's getting in dental school. No kidding. All right. Life's most embarrassing moment for Trey Gowdy. Good God. I mean, how long do you have? I mean, I don't know if we have another hour. I mean, there have been so many. The one that sticks out in my mind, I was at the U.S. Attorney's Office. We had

We had a Thanksgiving lunch with all the other court personnel, and I knew that the clerk of court was expecting. So I said – I was just trying to make small talk in the buffet line. I said, you know, when's your baby due? And she looked at me for just a second and said –

He's four months old. And I swore right then I didn't, I don't care if someone is literally in labor and delivery, literally, I will never, ever, ever ask again. Are you expecting? I don't care. I mean, it's a joke with Terry. Now we will see women that are like nine months pregnant. And I will say, do you think she's expecting? Cause I'm not going to ask.

I don't, you literally could be in the maternity ward and I will not ask now because the look on her face, how do you recover from that? I don't know, but I bet she remembers it. And I know you remember it. So still the clerk of court and she's a wonderful person. I will tell you one other, I was teaching vacation Bible school in Kentucky and one of the children in Harlan County brought a picture of

And I looked at the picture and I said, yeah, that's great. What does your dad do for a living? And a little girl looked at me and said, that's my mom. Whoops. In my defense, everyone else would have asked the same question. It ain't my fault. But I wish I could have it back.

All right. Last question. Who is your favorite oversight chairman from Utah's third congressional district? What district is Chris Stewart from? He's in the second district, I believe. I don't know. I can't remember the district numbers. You were a great chairperson. No, look, we're out of time. That's not what we were going for. You also were a great member, and you and I were on –

More than one committee together, and we spent a ton of time prepping. And I don't know that in the whole time I knew you, I don't know that I ever saw you lose your temper or get upset with someone. In that environment, I actually remember, you and I both loved Elijah Cummings. We both loved him. But I remember one time,

He had done something that, you know, kind of caught you off guard and he was calling you on the phone. And I thought, okay, great. This we're going to get a chance to see this Mormon get mad. No change whatsoever in your demeanor. None. You let him know that you thought things should have gone differently, but there was no ranting, no raving, no nothing.

Well, thank you. It was an honor and a privilege to serve, period. But to get to know people like you and Ratcliffe and just a whole series of people along the way is just the best part about it. And we did share a lot of laughs. I still think one of the funniest things...

was, and I just, I think I've described this story before, but you and I were fairly young on judiciary and I'm not being an attorney. It was pretty funny that I was on judiciary period. We're sitting pretty close to each other. I think we had one person in between us, but it was going to be a big contentious markup. And some of these contentious markups will go for two, three days. I mean, these go on and on. And there were a lot of people and

Tons of amendments are going to be offered and whatnot. And so they brought in some extra clerks. And the clerks were...

abnormally close to us on the bottom rung of that dais there, so much so that they brought this short, small table and they put a couple clerks right in front of us. You know, everybody has their social distance, their social space, you know, the comfort zone that, all right, we, you know, we all have a little space here, but they were way closer than they should have been and they're facing us. So we had to sit for a few days where,

you and I were facing the clerks. Now, one of the clerks, as you recall, was she was in her probably mid-20s, and we had spent a couple of days there. And at some point, if you recall, I was just, we were kind of buried on our phones. And, you know, this young lady's right across from us, and she

You texted me and I'm looking, just staring at my phone and it says, boy, this is going on so long. I think it's really taken a toll on the clerk. And then when I looked up, I looked up and she had left this 20 whatever year old that she was. And in her place was somebody who was probably 90 but looked 120.

And I just lost it. I just could not. I don't have the composure to just internalize it. I had tears coming down my face. I just uncontrollably started giggling and had to leave the room because I just thought that was so funny. I remember it like it was yesterday. Not proud of that. But, yes, it was a long day.

arduous, contentious markup, but I don't think it would have aged someone 80 years in the process. But it just came to mind when I looked down there and saw a slightly different

Slightly older. Yes. It just entered my, sometimes as my wife tells me, the fact that it enters your mind does not mean it needs to come out of your mouth. Those two are separate things. It just struck me to let you and Radcliffe know that it's not just us that have suffered through this markup. It's been hard on lots of people.

So picture yourself on an airline and imagine that the seat in front of you was turned towards you. It seemed like we were sitting that close together. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so I felt bad for her. She had to stare at us. We were staring. You know, I mean, you can't help somebody. You could literally reach out and touch anybody.

And, um, and then to just have been so staring at my phone and look just nine mind numbing, you know, markup and then look up and not see her and see this. Well, in our defense, we did a lot of funny things. I remember when one of the Democrat members kept complaining about the president going down to Key Largo.

instead of Mar-a-Lago. So I decided to pull up the old song Key Largo on my phone and play it just so four or five of y'all could hear it.

And I did it every time that Democrat member said anything. I mean, I'm not an expert on geography in Florida, but I'm pretty sure Key Largo and Mar-a-Lago are different places. Well, that song, you put it on the phone and put the volume just slight enough that we could hear, you know, however it goes. I can't sing.

But that song and I, it was so funny. We were all laughing and it was, that was a good moment. We got lots of those good moments. I thank you so much for joining my podcast. You were, I think people can tell you are my favorite. You still are one of my favorite people.

And that's why I can't sit there and complain too much about those eight years because I never would have met you if it hadn't been for that. So congratulations on your podcast. And thanks to all six people who subscribe and are going to hear this. And I look forward to seeing you soon. All right. Thank you, Trey Gowdy. All right, man. Take care of yourself. All right. Appreciate it. See ya. Bye.

Can't thank Trey Gowdy enough for joining us on Jason in the House. I hope he's got his own podcast. If you go over to foxnewspodcast.com, you can find the Trey Gowdy podcast. I think you'll enjoy that. I'm hoping you can rate and review and subscribe to this. At least give it some stars there along the way. We'd appreciate it. And we'll be back with more next week. I'm Jason Chaffetz. This has been Jason in the House.

The Fox True Crime Podcast presents Crimes on Campus. Sharing chilling stories of scandal, corruption, and murder. New episodes available every Tuesday this month. Listen and follow at foxtruecrime.com.