Elizabeth Smart: The Fight Against Human Trafficking
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Hey, this is Jason Chaffetz. Thanks for joining us on the Jason and the House podcast. I do appreciate it. We have a really special couple of guests today. Elizabeth Smart. If you don't know the Elizabeth Smart case or maybe in the back of your mind, remember this kidnapping case out of Utah. Just a fascinating person, along with Brett Tolman, who is the U.S. attorney for Utah that...

prosecuted the federal side of the case. The two of them, we'll give them a call and a shout. And I think it's going to be a great discussion because she's got a really important message about human trafficking. And I want to hear a little bit about her story, what she went through.

and what we can all do to deal with the problems of this sexual trafficking. And it's just going to be a fascinating discussion. So I hope you stay with us for that. But we like to kick things off a little riff on the news. And then we always talk about

highlighting the stupid because you know there's always somebody doing something stupid somewhere. So let's kick things off and just talk about I mean there is a rapid fire discussion going on in this country. Things are changing moment by moment, issue by issue about what's going on in Afghanistan and you're getting a lot of information about Afghanistan and what's going on right now.

Um, but I just suffice it to say, I think there is a proper way to bring our people home. And then there's one that is one of total embarrassment, one that puts lots of people in harm's way. And unfortunately, that's what I think we're seeing now. I took a position back in 2009 that we should be bringing our men and women home and coming home from war, uh, should be a great day, a wonderful day. We should leave with,

pride and exuberance and we should leave dignity. But that's not what's happening now. So there's a right way and the wrong way to do that. We'll probably have further discussions about that right now, but we're losing our power and our strength within the United States. And I worry that not just our world standing, but what it means to the literally hundreds of thousands of men and women

who have served our country, who got up off the couch, who joined the United States military, who engaged in the fight, and they served and they came back. They could be in logistics. They could be in food services. They could be in the technical support. They could be frontline fighters. They could be in the air. They could be on the ground. They could be the

doctors and nurses that have to take care of wounded, they could be a host of people. And too many people lost their lives and too many people lost a limb or came back with some very dramatic psychological trauma having done what they did. But they did so, and I hope they hold their head high and understand that while it was a tough decision to put those troops in, I can see where they wanted to degrade and take out the terrorist threat that was...

posed before the United States because of 9-11. And to that extent, I hope every service member holds their head high and recognizes, whether they're in the military or their intelligence services or foreign service or whatnot, that we did not suffer a major terrorist attack like 9-11. And heaven forbid that we do. But the men and women who engaged in that fight, sometimes I think it's hard to highlight the times when

there wasn't a terrorist attack. Even though that is a victory, it's hard to identify it and say that, look, we prevented that. There may be a handful of people that know that they took out this threat and consequently there was not an attack.

The one other thing that I do hope that we go back and look at is how we deal with those that are engaged in combat against the United States that aren't from a nation state. That's what Guantanamo Bay is all about. We have fighters that are trying to take out the United States. We want to take them off the battlefield, even though they may not wear the flag of a particular country, maybe a religion, maybe an ideology, maybe a lone wolf.

But when we take them off the battlefield and they're not American citizens, we've been taking them in large part to Guantanamo Bay. And Obama and then Biden and Harris have all said, we don't want to close it. And if you look back when history, when dust settles here a little bit, we're going to find that Barack Obama, President Barack Obama and Joe Biden, the vice president, are

authorized, signed off, and put people back on the battlefield that we then had to fight yet again. And I think that is wrong. It is scary. And it is just wrong. So, all right. Time to bring on the stupid because you know what? There's always somebody doing something stupid somewhere. All right. There is something going on in the Middle East right now that I just... It'll fly a bit under the radar.

because of everything that's going on in Afghanistan. But as you read what's going on in the Middle East, specifically in Israel, there are people now that are trying to spin what's going on as there are attacks coming from Gaza across the border into Israel. And what they're doing is they're trying to rename this, they're trying to spin this as activists as opposed to terrorists.

So what they're doing is they're taking incendiary devices. They're taking basically balloons that catch fire. And what they do is when the wind's right, they will put up these fire bombs is essentially what they are. And then they'll blow across into Israel. And then as they catch fire, guess what? That will go down and it'll start a forest fire.

Now, I've been to those parts. I'm not saying it's necessarily thick, big evergreens, but it's also very dry in that part of the world. There are a lot of grasses. There are a lot of bushes. There are

And you know what? If you've ever had a forest fire or a brush fire coming at you, particularly if it's windy, it can be terrorizing. So the reason I qualify this as stupid is that there are some people that are buying into this idea that these are activists as opposed to terrorists.

The goal of what they're doing with these incendiary devices is terrorism. They're trying to scare people. They're trying to push them back from where they live. That is the pure definition of terrorism. And so anybody who tries to change this and say, oh no, these are just activists as if they're engaged in some sort of acceptable behavior that qualifies as being something stupid.

You're listening to Jason in the House. We'll be back with more of my conversation right after this. Hi, everybody. It's Brian Kilmeade. I want you to join me weekdays at 9 a.m. East as we break down the biggest stories of the day with some of the biggest newsmakers and, of course, what you think. Listen live or get the podcast now at BrianKilmeadeShow.com. All right. Time to call one of my heroes, Elizabeth Smart, who's a

survived something when she was kidnapped at age 14 and went through this unbelievable process over eight, nine months of surviving. And I remember when this happened, living in Utah, there came a point as time went on, where's Elizabeth? Where's Elizabeth? And you worry that she was potentially killed. And I remember there was such a call for people to go out that

We were south about 30 minutes drive from where Elizabeth Smart ultimately was found. But we would go up in the hills during the day, looking, seeing, calling out her name. It was a very emotional time. And so let's dial up.

Elizabeth Smart and Brett Tolman, who was the U.S. attorney, served in the United States Senate Judiciary Committee, became the U.S. attorney. And this case fell into his lap and he knows a lot about it. There was this unbelievable, amazing moment in March of 2003.

where they found Elizabeth Smart. I mean, it still gives me chills. I still like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that she's alive and here. And it was just unbelievable that she was okay. And Jason, I remember the same, you know, my family, we were searching, we were looking, we had...

I had daughters that were similar in age and I have a sister who was abducted in college. And so it hit our family as well. And I think everybody was able to relate because it was, I think, your worst fear. Now, Elizabeth, you were just 14 years old, but to the extent you can, can you share with people what happened and what you went through?

Yeah, of course. I mean, as you mentioned, I grew up, spent my whole life here in Utah. And I would say we were a pretty typical family. I mean, I don't feel like there was really anything that made us stand out more than any other. I feel like I lived a very sheltered life. We were very close-knit. And so the thought of...

something bad, I mean, truly bad ever happening to me or anyone in my family for that matter, just seemed so, so far from the realm of possibility. It just, it didn't seem like it could happen. I mean, we lived in a nice neighborhood. We lived in a nice home. It just seemed like life would just continue on the way it always had. And so the night that I was kidnapped and

I mean, it of course shocked everyone, me, more than everyone probably, because it was just something that was so unexpected, something that just we never imagined could even happen, could even be a possibility. And I mean, the night before I was kidnapped, I went to bed like every other night. I shared a room with my younger sister. I shared a bed, in fact, with my younger sister.

And I remember just waking up to a man's voice saying, I have a knife at your neck. Don't make a sound. Get up and come with me. And really, initially, I didn't think it could be real. I mean, I don't think any of us go to bed with the expectation of being woken up by a stranger holding a knife on our neck and telling them to go with them. And I didn't feel like I had a choice. So...

I did what I was told to do. I got up and I went with this man and he took me up into the mountains behind my home where he told me I was now going to become his wife. He raped me, he chained me up and then the next nine months, I mean, was just a continuation of abuse and raping. Yeah, it was a nightmare.

But, and during those nine months, I mean, I was taken to Southern California for the winter because, well, quite frankly, we wouldn't have survived staying in Northern Utah for a winter outside. And so we went to Southern California. He actually made multiple attempts to kidnap other young girls, but I mean, thank goodness he never was successful.

And then he, it was actually me, I was able to convince him to return to Salt Lake because I felt like that was my best chance to be rescued. I mean, no one had found me in Salt Lake beforehand. Before he had taken me to California, no one had found me in Southern California. And I felt like if we went somewhere else, the chances of me being rescued, of getting back to my family would just decrease dramatically.

more and more. So, I miraculously was able to convince Brian Mitchell and Wanda Barzee to return back to Salt Lake. And we hitchhiked back and we finally made it and we were walking up State Street in Salt Lake, which for those of you who don't know, it's a pretty big street. I'd say it's pretty heavily trafficked. And all of a sudden, just police car after what felt like police car,

pulled up alongside of us and they all jumped out and they came over and started questioning my captors and initially I didn't I didn't answer them right off the bat initially I didn't say that I was Elizabeth smart and I think it's just important to point out right here because Probably one of the most asked questions I've gotten is you know, why didn't you just immediately scream? Why didn't you just immediately say something?

And it's not that I ever enjoyed being kidnapped. It's not that I ever didn't want to be rescued. I always wanted to be rescued. I mean, being kidnapped was not a vacation. It was not fun. So I always wanted that. But for nine months, I mean, nine months in a 14, 15-year-old kid's life, that's pretty significant. That's a pretty long time. And I'd say...

don't know I mean puberty is not exactly a pleasant time in life anyway so it's already at a difficult time in life but for nine months you know I had been abused and I've been raped and no one had been there to protect me so believing that someone else could protect me it was hard I didn't know if it was possible I mean I'd never had any interaction with the police prior

prior to being kidnapped. So I didn't know how far they really could protect me. I didn't know what they were capable of, but I certainly knew what my captors were capable of and they were capable of a lot. So no, initially I didn't admit who I was and it really wasn't until one of the officers separated me a little bit and started speaking to me and just saying, you know, there's a girl she's been missing now for nine months. Her

Her family's never given up hope. They've never stopped searching for her. You know, they love her. They want her to come home. Aren't you ready to go home? And it was really only then that I was finally able to admit who I was and that's how I was rescued. You know, I get that question a lot too, Elizabeth. You know, why didn't she? It was an effort by two people who are acting evil

But they're intelligent and they knew very much how to break down, you know, a young woman and her expectations. And it was a process. You know, there were times where they interacted with people. And if they, you know, survived that interaction, like the police officer in the library, for example, early on when she was kidnapped, if they got through that and they weren't exposed...

you know, Brian David Mitchell would use that to re indoctrinate Elizabeth and to let her know, see, God wants you to be with us and things like that. And that's really the challenge when you're in it. And I think Elizabeth doesn't give herself enough credit when she says that she convinced Brian David Mitchell miraculously to come back to Utah. This was brilliant. And

unbelievable that she was able to convince him and did so using his own logic and his own religious zealousness against him and to convince him to come back to Utah where ultimately she knew she had a far better chance of being saved. And so what was it that you were telling him? What was that, Elizabeth, that

I'm not sure where in California, and you may not have known where in California you were, but what was the argument or what was the discussion or what were you saying to him that ultimately led him to think that, hey, yeah, this is what I should do? Well, we were in Lakeside, California, so...

like public transport from outside of San Diego. I mean, I definitely remember where we were. I mean, where I was held captive at the time, it literally looked like the fire swamp out of Princess Bride. That's what it looked like. Yeah, I mean, I think first you have to almost even take it just a little step back further because every time he thought of something new that he wanted to do to me,

whether it was withholding food or finding some new way to rape me or something like that, he would always frame it as, you know, God needs you to experience this because you need to know that you're not better than anyone else. And Christ himself descended below all things so that he could rise above all things. And although you're not Christ and you're nowhere near Christ, in fact, you're very far from Christ,

it's important that you recognize that in yourself as well, which is why you need to experience these things. I mean, for instance, he'd say this to me, I didn't want to kidnap you. I would never just kidnap an innocent young girl, but God chose you and I could not deny God's commandment. And so he would always, I mean, that's how he would frame each new person.

atrocity that he would perform against me and that I'd gone on for nine months. So I listened to it for a very, very long time. I think he was always waiting for the day when I would fully accept him, when I would fully accept this role, this facade that he constantly

paraded around of being a prophet of God, of my abduction actually being like a rescuing and a miracle. And so by the time our time in California was coming to an end, I had listened to it for a very long time. And so I just remember thinking, I've got to get back to Utah. There's no way I'm ever going to be found if I don't get back to Utah.

And so I thought about how he justified what he did. And I just thought, well, if it can work for him, I mean, nobody needs to tell me it's wrong. I already know it's wrong. But if it can work for him all this time, maybe it can work for me. So I just faced my captor and I said, you know, I know I am sinful and wicked and God would never inspire me with anything. But I just have this feeling like,

like we should return to Salt Lake. And I just know I'm terrible and I'm sinful and wicked. And I just, but this feeling, it just won't leave me alone.

Do you think you could ask God? I know he would answer you. I know he would tell you if we're supposed to return to Salt Lake because you're his prophet and you're his servant. And I just know he'll answer you. And I think in that moment, Brian Mitchell felt like that was me really accepting him willingly. That was me buying into this whole thing.

persona that he created. And so I think that was ultimately kind of what made him feel like, oh, she accepts me. I think I will.

Like, yeah, we can go back to Salt Lake because, you know, it's just tightening my control over her. And now, you know, not only can I do whatever I want to her, but she will be a willing participant in whatever I say I want to do with her. So he didn't act alone. There was somebody by his side the whole time.

He's in jail now. He's going to be there for the rest of his life, as best I can tell. And Brett, you know more about that than anybody. He has multiple life sentences, and there's no parole in the federal system. So, and thank you for your good work in prosecuting that case. Does that give you comfort? And I want to contrast that to the one at Barzee who's not incarcerated at this point. And how does that make you feel?

Well, I am of course very happy that he is in the federal prison, that he will never get out because I think if he did get out, he would come back after me and not only just me, but I think he would also come back after my children. Because I'm a mother now and I have three small children that are not his, just to be clear.

but I think that he would come back after me so I am very happy to know that he will never get out Wanda Barzee she is out and yes I

I am disappointed. I feel like she was just as much guilty as he was, especially because she was a woman. I mean, she had six children of her own and I was younger than her youngest child that she gave birth to. And she not only stepped aside and allowed this to happen, but she encouraged it to happen. And she would get upset and angry with me when I wouldn't do exactly what she

Brian Mitchell said or what she said. So there is a part of me that feels like she shouldn't be out. But I think most victims would agree. And I didn't come up with this. Someone said this to me. We don't always have a justice system. We just have a legal system. And I feel like that is very accurate. And I guess I have to take the wins that I do get because so many victims, they never see their

their perpetrators, they never see them in court. They never see any kind of sentencing coming down on them. I mean, I would say the vast majority of perpetrators are still walking free. So although I do feel like Wanda Barzee still deserves to be in prison, I will take what I can get. And at least everyone knows that she's a predator and she will never be able to wipe that off her record.

And Brett, I think there are a lot of people that feel like that. You know, Brett, they want to see justice. And I've never heard it framed like that, Elizabeth. But I think you're right. There's a difference between a legal system and a justice system. And I think there's that perception out there. And it's probably a reason why a lot of good people don't come forward, whether it's, you know, a sexual crime or a

or an assault, or it could be a host of things because they're worried that the justice system won't actually fulfill its mission. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. You know, a couple of things. I really like hearing what you said, Elizabeth, and I know there's been a lot of growth on your part to get to that point because I, you know, look back fondly at all of our meetings and preparation in the case and,

our discussions and I remember one of the first questions Elizabeth asked me was whether or not the death penalty was available for both of them. And that tells you, you know, the impact, just the way in which these two evil people harmed and hurt another. And at the time, I know

You know, we can't all we can't relate with all of that. But what Elizabeth is saying now about understanding that a lot of victims don't have any form of justice is what happened to my sister, who was kidnapped and raped in college. And we never found the perpetrators and they were never brought to any sort of justice. With respect to Wanda Barzee, those were tough, tough calls and tough issues. But she had...

a plea deal, an offer was made to her in exchange for her cooperation against Brian David Mitchell. She did receive a 15 year sentence, but what happened and why she got out even earlier, sooner than that is, and Elizabeth and I disagreed with this and we were very vocal about it, but they gave her credit for time where she was in the mental institution and time where she was in state custody

they gave credit for that time against that 15 years, which allowed her to actually get out a lot sooner. And, and so it's a, you know, it's frustrating and aggravating because there's still a need for her to be, you know, punishment cannot be long enough with these two because they're,

But hopefully she is being supervised and hopefully that, like Elizabeth said, everyone's aware of what she is and we just pray that there are no other victims. And I think her being away from Brian David Mitchell

helps, you know, give us an opportunity as a community that she won't, you know, reoffend or do something else to some other innocent victim. But that's the challenge of the justice system for sure.

No, no. Look, that's what's infuriating to a guy like me who's got a wife. I got a couple of daughters. I got grandkids. And look, I'm watching this from afar. You know, I just, you know, an American doing the right thing. And then I see this horrific case. I can't think of anything more vile and aggressive and continuous than

And I don't understand why there's not, you know, a death penalty or something as close to that as possible. I guess I personally, it's worth nothing compared to what Elizabeth feels like, but at least we know he's in prison for the rest of his life. But your story, Elizabeth, is so amazing because not only that moment, that exuberation of just knowing that you're alive, because so many people thought that you weren't.

And then to not only see that, but the strength that you've given by your marriage, you've got kids, you talk about this and now you're advocating. And for everybody that's listening across the country and we get people across the world that listen to this, you have such a unique position. And I just want to turn the microphone over to you and

I don't know what to ask you particularly. Like, what do you want these people to know? Because they may not have had the severity or the length of abuse and abduction that you did, but it's like the most devastating thing in their life. And so what do you tell those people who have gone through this? What can they do to prevent it? And what can they do if they have gone through it?

Well, the first thing is that you need to be educated because how can you know how to respond? How can you know what

what you're looking at, if you don't actually know what you're looking at or how to respond. I mean, I think that's the place that we can all start at and, you know, begin having conversations with your children and not just have it one time and be like, right, I've had that conversation, check it off my list, like on to next thing, like have this be a continuing conversation. I mean, talk about safety address, you know, what is appropriate? What is not appropriate? What do you do when you,

feel scared? Who do you turn to? Who are the safe people in your life? Those kinds of things. Not being afraid to reach out to help and maybe that help is the police calling the police when you think you see something that is wrong. I mean, that is what they're there for.

and utilizing the resources that we already have because I have been to all 50 states in America and I've been up to a number of places up in Canada and I know we have some incredible, incredible people who are dedicating their life to helping victims, to helping survivors, to helping spread education and awareness

And, and our law enforcement, we have amazing people in law enforcement who, you know, are willing to put their lives literally on the line to, to help people.

So we have some pretty incredible resources. Yes, we can always do better. Yes, there should always be more. But we already have some great resources. Let's start using them. Let's become educated. Let's become aware of what's in our area, what's around us. How can we help? How can we support? And then things that I personally...

Care very very much about I have my own nonprofit the Elizabeth smart foundation. I know so original But we have a campaign that we run throughout November and the beginning of December and it's called the we believe you campaign and it's because the number one comment that I get from victims is nobody believes me and

honestly how you respond to a victim, to a survivor when they first disclose their abuse to you

honestly can set the trajectory for their healing and recovery or for keeping it bottled inside and end up ultimately having it be a path of self-destruction. So the first thing that everyone, that we all should do is if a victim comes forward and discloses their abuse to you, believe them. There are always going to be people out there say, well, what about those victims that lie? Well, it's such a small, small percentage of victims

individuals who would actually lie about this and their lies always come to the surface so you're always going to be better off even if this person is lying initially to believe them i mean because it really it really can set whether that person goes on to a healthy life or not

So that is the first thing that I would stress people to do. The second thing is don't immediately just jump in with questioning and be like, well, you know, why didn't you do this or why didn't you do that? Never, never, never start a question with the words, why didn't you? And I know this from experience because for years when people would ask me questions like, why didn't you run? Why didn't you scream?

I didn't understand, but I would just feel so defensive all of a sudden. And it took me a while to realize it wasn't because I heard this person's natural curiosity coming through. What I ultimately was hearing was you should have run. You should have screamed. You should have done more. Somehow this is your fault that you were kidnapped for so long. You didn't do enough. You didn't fight hard enough.

And let's just be grateful that this survivor is still alive because so many survivors do all the right things and they're killed. So it's a miracle that this survivor is still alive. Let's, let's believe them. Let's support them. Let's help them. Not let's not interrogate them and question them. We can let the professionals do that. Um,

There are forensic interviewers. That's their job. And they are trained and they're trauma informed and they know the correct way to go about questioning.

So just believe them, support them, treat them like a human being. Don't, amidst all of the trauma that they are sharing with you, don't forget just to treat them like a friend. Don't just forget to be like, hey, do you want to go to the movies? Or do you want to go on a hike with me? Because they need that positive interaction in their life as well. I think probably one of the number one reasons why I am the way I am today is

is because people believed in me and because I had support. And I didn't have just support of my parents and family, but I had the support of my community, of my church, of my friends, of honestly, I felt like the country supported me and believed me.

I feel like that did more for my healing than quite possibly anything else. That's very true. And I'm glad you feel the support and love of the country. I just wish and I hope that while your case is so well known and your willingness to get out and talk about it candidly can help countless others, I just hope those other victims are

also feel that love and that support that they may not get. And Brett, I want you to address that part about, you know, getting the help and the support and believing them. And, you know, as a prosecutor, what's your perspective of all that? You know, I love listening to Elizabeth. She's so passionate and she speaks from such experience and I could just listen, you know, and

We've worked together on various projects and issues, and even just recently, she's helping other victims of sex trafficking or human trafficking. And we're trying to help another woman who has suffered horrific abuses. And so I...

I love hearing about how, you know, this is, this is a woman who did not let what happened to her define her in a negative way, but has channeled that. And I think she's extraordinary and unusual in that she has, she has strength. And I always say to people when they ask me about her, I always say she's one of the most powerful women I've known in my life. And I have,

you know, great powerful women around me, but she's, she's one of the most. And I have that respect for her because I see, and I watch her every day doing that. I, I hope people will listen to her. I hope law enforcement will listen to her, you know, from a prosecutor's perspective, I,

I was mortified when I was U.S. attorney that this case, her case, you know, the kidnappings that had captivated the nation was languishing in the state system. And he had been deemed to have been incompetent to stand trial. And it was just, you know, it was awful. And I was proud to team up with Dr. Wellner out of New York and expend a lot of resources to show that, you

this guy was a master manipulator. There are a lot of people that don't have that kind of resource or they have prosecutors that are buried with these kinds of cases. We don't have a lot of cases like that in the federal system. And so I was able to bring the full resources and massive effort of the federal government against these two. What I would like to see is

We need to be able to not, you know, we hear all this defund the police and all of that and violent crime and sexual crimes are, you know, going up in major cities across the country. What we need is to be able to channel resources and to refine what our law enforcement officers are doing so that, and our prosecutors, so that they can focus on these most serious cases and that they're using their resources for that purpose.

That's one side. And on the other side, we do need mental health experts and victim advocates. And we need a lot of changes in our laws and in our system so that, as Elizabeth outlined,

we start to have a different approach to these types of cases so that more victims are willing to come forward, that there's a conversation and a dialogue that occurs that empowers them or at least enables them to have the strength to be able to

to get through not only the justice system, but to get through this horrific thing that occurs in their lives. So we have a long way to go, but the only way we're going to do it is by listening to people like Elizabeth. You're listening to Jason in the House. We'll be back with more of my conversation right after this.

Now there's ElizabethSmart.com, very aptly named and easy to spell. So you can go there to the ElizabethSmart.com. You've written two books, Where There's Hope, and then also My Story, which you did with Chris Stewart, who happens to be the congressman from Utah, in sharing your stories. But Elizabeth, there are men out there that haven't

been the bad guys and haven't experienced this, but they want to help. There are women out there that haven't necessarily been victims, but they want to help. What do you say to all the people who want to help? They want to be part of the solution. They want to be empowered to do something. What should they be looking for? What should they be doing?

Well, first of all, I mean, it's kind of repeating myself a little bit, but I don't mind doing that because I think I do that all day, every day anyway. But I mean, it is becoming educated on these topics, knowing what to look for, you know, what stands out. Oh, is that, does that seem like a, you know, potentially like a goal?

17, 18, 19 year old girl who should probably be in control of her own IDs and documents and yet someone else is handling it for her. That seems a little bit odd. Maybe I should call in or this just, I'm getting a strange feeling from this couple. I mean,

this girl, this woman or girl, you know, she is not talking like this man or whoever she's with is not allowing her to talk even when questions are directed towards her. That seems a little bit strange. Maybe I should look into that or maybe I should contact someone who can question her or find out more about why she's not speaking for herself. You know,

If you're seeing markings on her body or bruises or if there's a trouble making eye contact,

with you. I mean, these are small things and there's a whole host of other things that you can look at. These are just a few things, a few smaller things that you can watch for that are red flags. They don't always 100% mean that that person's being abused or that person's being trafficked, but they're just good things to look for. So becoming educated, make sure you are educating those that are around you, having those conversations within your own homes, make sure that they're

ongoing and that they're healthy. I mean, for instance, the end of last year, so my oldest daughter, she's in first grade now, but she just finished kindergarten last year.

May and towards the end of the school year, which I felt like I was doing a pretty good job about talking to her about what was safe and what she should do or asking her what she thought she should do if she ever felt scared or worried. And I guess it had been a little bit since I'd last spoken to her about it, but it certainly was not a new conversation I had with her. But I asked her and I said, oh,

What do you think you should do if someone ever hits you? Or what should you do if someone scares you? Or what should you do if someone tries touching you?

And she was like, "I should go tell my teacher." And I was like, "Okay." I was like, "That's good." I was like, "But what else? Do you think it's okay to fight back? Do you think it's okay to protect yourself, to hit back or to bite or scream or scratch? Do you think that's okay?" And she kind of giggled at me and then she was just like, "No."

That was not, that's not okay. And I said, well, why isn't it okay? And she said, well, because then I'll lose the star next to my name in class. And I don't want to lose the star next to my name. And I was like, I was like, sweetheart, if someone is hurting you and your teacher's not around and it's just you and there's not someone you can turn to for help,

it's okay. I want you to fight back and I want you to scream and I want you to yell. And I want you to, you know, use your strong hands and your strong arms and you kick and you fight and you punch. And, you know, if you get in trouble, if your teacher gets you in trouble, I mean, or she wants, you know, you to be punished, I will come to the school. I will come and talk to them and I will tell them that I told you to do that. And if you're still in trouble, if you get suspended,

we'll go to the beach. We'll go to Disneyland. Like, I want you to be safe first and foremost. And I will, I am in your corner and I will like, I will back you up because I believe you. And so ever since then, I keep asking her, I'm like, so what would you do? And now she's like, I would fight them. I'm like, okay, good. And what do you tell somebody who's,

you know, that's young and I applaud that. And there's lessons to be learned from that. What do you say to somebody who's maybe 13 or maybe 16 and starting to date and, you know, going out with a young man and thinks that everything's going to be great until he decides that, you know, he's going to take her somewhere. What do you say to them? Is it the same thing?

It's the same thing. I mean, if anything, it's even more. So in my foundation, we have a program called Smart Defense. And it is a combination of jujitsu and Krav Maga and just honestly basic dirty fighting. But it's more than just those physical skills. It's talking about situational awareness. It's talking about what's okay, what's not okay. I mean, I will never, I will never ever forget that.

multiple conversations, but the first conversation I ever had with a survivor and she was smart, she was intelligent. It had been probably 10 years since her abuse had happened. And she told me her story, how she had been in college and she had a boyfriend and at first everything was great, but then he turned...

extremely controlling and abusive. And he was raping her all the time. He had set cameras up in her apartment. He was watching her so she couldn't leave her apartment. He was drugging her.

And she finally got away from him because she eventually, after a while, realized that's not normal and that's not okay. But she didn't know what had happened to her was rape, that she had been raped by her boyfriend. I mean, it took a number of years after she'd gotten away from him when she was actually speaking with the police officer. And she told that police officer what happened, that the police officer came back and said, you were raped. What happened to you is rape.

If it's not enthusiastic consent, it's rape. And so we talk a lot about that in Smart Defense. And...

Right now, we are in Utah and Kansas and Idaho, and we're working on expanding. We're working on making this virtual so that anyone anywhere can have access to it. But even if you don't have access to it, I mean, these are still conversations that parents have to be having with their daughters and, quite frankly, their sons, right?

They're difficult and they're hard, but they're so important to have. Because I remember how I was when I had my first boyfriend and how exciting it was and wanting to be cool. And so just perfect's not quite the right word.

but I'm not really sure what other word to use, but perfect so that he would like me so that he would continue to like me. It was me feeling like I wanted to please someone else that they would like me, not,

I guess maybe I lack the confidence in myself to think that he would just quite possibly like me for me. And I mean, I like my first boyfriend, like he was, he was great. He was fine. I mean, I think he genuinely liked me for me and we probably both worried about the exact same thing.

But I think helping to install that in our girls before they even get to that age so that they know what is appropriate and what is not and where their boundaries are. And when someone is crossing them, they have the confidence within them to stand up for themselves and be like, no, this is not okay. I think that is such an essential need to fill these days.

Brett, what can you add to that? You know, it hits home because I have four older sisters and two of my sisters, not the one that was kidnapped and raped, but two of them were also date raped. And so, you know, three out of my four sisters, and we grew up here in Utah. They're supposed to be a

you know, very religious citizenry. And I mean, the lesson is, is we all have to do better. And in all of these communities and oftentimes in your heavily religious communities, there's a lot of repression and there's, there's not a lot of discussion and education on the issue. And so I, I,

applaud what Elizabeth is outlining. And I think we have a tremendous amount of work to do in communities all across this country. And I'm glad that Elizabeth mentioned, you know, that we have to do more with young men as well. There has to be better education.

education and training and upbringing for a lot of the young men. And, you know, and I would what I would add is I would like to see a lot more consistency across this country on how we deal with those cases so that there's more predictability and that there's consistency that the victims of these crimes can start to have a sense that maybe justice is not as elusive as it has been. And because

We should do all that we can to eradicate the behavior out of society. We should do all that we can to enable the protection of our young men and women. But we know that there's still going to be crime and there's going to be this kind of crime. And so we have work to do, I think, in all three areas.

Yeah, I think, you know, we need good people like you, Brett, who are willing to take on these cases. I worry that prosecutors look at it and say, you know, it's his word against her word. And this is going to be tough to prosecute. So I'm just not going to move forward, which can be so devastating to what will end up being that next victim.

I also find that my experience, my own personal high school experience, and also looking at our kids, kids in these high schools, they know who's who. They know who's up to what. And things get around. To have the bravery and the smarts, if you will, to get up and actually say something to somebody, as Elizabeth was talking about, I hope that happens too. And I do think it's not just women, but it's also boys and men too.

They get raped. They go through these difficult things and sometimes from people in very powerful positions, whether it's athletics or religious or whatever it be, there are people in power that have influence over them. And young people, they want to be accepted. It's like what you were talking about, Elizabeth. You want to be perfect for that boyfriend or girlfriend.

and um but i i just hope and pray that um so many people get strength from what you went through i'm so sorry that you had to go through what you did i can't even imagine i mean i just seriously cannot even imagine it elizabeth but you are such an inspiration and such a strength to so many

And to have gone through that horrific time and turn it into such a positive thing that's going to help countless people that you will never meet, never have a conversation. I'm glad I had a chance to shake your hand a couple times. I'm sure you don't remember, but I visited with you and you came up to Capitol Hill on Congress. But your strength, I can't thank you enough. And I'm just so happy that you...

you know, have a husband, have this wonderful life with these three young kids. And, uh, I, I just can't thank you enough for sharing your story today. Oh, well, thank you. Thank you for having me and giving me this opportunity to chat with you again and be on with my, one of my heroes, Brett Tolman. I'll never forget him. Thank you. And you know, that's likewise. Well, you, you're, you're both, uh,

good people doing the right thing and and Elizabeth just a huge inspiration to all of us again I would encourage people to go to Elizabeth smart.com you can go there she's got some books and some other media and other communication there and Elizabeth thank you thank you thank you for sharing your story today

This has been the Jason in the House podcast. I hope we can do more impactful podcasts like this. And Elizabeth Smart and Brett Tolman, thank you so much for sharing your story today. Well, thank you again for having me. Thank you, Jason. Again, I know I've said it several times, but I cannot thank Elizabeth Smart enough. The strength that she has.

to tell this story, share this story. She's just an incredible human being and I'm so glad that she has this wonderful family. All right, I wanna, if that wasn't inspiration enough, if that didn't boo you up enough, all right, I wanna talk about this quick story here. For more than seven decades, seven decades, Martin Adler, he was a young American soldier

And he had a black and white photo that he carried with him every day. And I read about this on foxnews.com. And he carried with him this picture of three perfectly dressed Italian children. See, he was involved, engaged in the war, and he was credited with serving when the Nazis retreated northward in 1944. Wow.

And so his service and his ability to help those children, somehow, someway, he got a photo of them. Well, just this last week, this 97-year-old World War II veteran met those three siblings. Now, those siblings, if you think about it, they're now octogenarians, right? So they're in their 80s. And for the first time since the war, where he was able to help,

These really little kids that he just carried with him literally every day for 70 years. He was able to meet them in person for the first time since the war. What a great inspirational story. God bless them all. And thank you for Martin Adler for your service to our country and making us proud. And what an incredibly emotional moment that I'm glad that finally did happen.

Well, this has been the Jason in the House podcast. I really do appreciate listening. I hope you can give it to rate it a little bit, write a comment or a review of it. We would really appreciate that. You can also go over to foxnewspodcast.com. There are other great podcasts out there. And we'll be back more next week with another great guest and more discussion. Thanks for listening to the Jason in the House podcast. I'm Jason Chaffetz.

I'm Guy Benson. Join me weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern as we break down the biggest stories of the day with some of the biggest newsmakers and guests. Listen live on the Fox News app or get the free podcast at GuyBensonShow.com.