Alex Gray: A Front Row Seat To History
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Well, welcome to the Jason in the House podcast. I'm Jason Chaffetz, and thanks for joining us. We're going to talk about kind of my perspective on some of the news, going to highlight the stupid, because, you know, somebody's always doing something stupid somewhere. And then we're going to phone a friend. This time we're going to call Alex Gosselin.

And my guess is you don't know Alex Gray, but you should know Alex Gray. He might be the next United States Senator from Oklahoma due to a retirement. There's a special election out there. But I got to know Alex when he was the chief of staff for the National Security Council under the National Security Advisor, Robert O'Brien. So they're in the Trump administration now.

fascinating guy, worked his butt off, wicked smart, nice as can be, but was right in the heart of foreign policy and making security decisions in what ended up being really the four years that were probably some of the safest in my lifetime. And so we're going to talk to Alex Gray and learn a little bit more about

role, how the NSC, the National Security Council operates and a little bit more about him personally as we do on the Jason in the House podcast. But let's jump first into the news. There is a lot going on with Ukraine every day, every hour. I'm sure the moment that we're recording this, things will change the next hour.

The thing that I've taken away with as much as anything is the courage and the resolve of the Ukrainian people. Now, in the fog of war, it's hard to verify what's what. You see selective videos and audios and you hear certain stories. It's maybe not the most objective because...

Sources coming out to maybe Western media might be different than how the Russians might perceive it. But there is no more higher moral ground than where the Ukrainians are. Unprovoked, they were attacked. This is a country of roughly 45 million people. They're going up against the Russian military who amassed hundreds of thousands of assets there to take on this country.

With really there there was no moral justification for what Vladimir Putin did and how he's doing it and the deployment by the Russians of some very heinous weapons is Just one of the scary scary parts about this if you look at Vladimir Putin in the history of the Russians They have used chemical weapons in the past and I fear that any moment they could use them again. I

We saw this play out in Syria. We do see, I think, some of the most inspirational but heart-wrenching video simultaneous. I just recently saw this mass grave where people were killed. They don't have time. They don't have the ability to do individual services or do proper burials. So they're opening up a big...

pit, if you will, and throwing bodies in it. That's just heart-wrenching. Words don't even begin to describe it. But then I also get inspired by the people who say, no, I'm going to stay and fight for my country. And they're trying to make Molotov cocktails to fight against the Russian army. Now, the resolve of the Ukrainian people, I think, offers courage. It offers hope. It offers inspiration. It's something that this should never have come to before.

But certainly President Zelensky is giving it everything that he can to stay and to fight and to not just back off and let Russia go take their country. I can't even imagine that happening here. But I guess as I thought this week about riffing on the news, it's probably worth just stepping back every once in a while. And rather than honing in on one specific issue or one specific thing, there's probably nothing that

supersedes or exceeds courage and commitment and the spirit. And you know what? That's why I feel about the United States of America. Despite all of our problems, all of our challenges, the United States of America is still the greatest country on the face of the planet. I don't think you'll ever break the American spirit.

And I'd like to talk about that American spirit and the courage that Americans have. But I also see Ukrainians offering a degree of courage that they're forced to do. I feel for the millions, millions of people. It's hard to fathom, right? Millions of people having to flee and leave their country, grabbing their kids, their loved ones, their elderly father, their mother, whoever it might be.

and trying to get to the Polish border or somewhere where they can find it safe and can only bring what they can carry. Some having to walk long distances in freezing cold conditions or getting on a packed train that doesn't nearly have the capacity to move the types of people. So I hope we keep them all in our hearts and our prayers, but that's a little bit of thought on the news. I want to transition. Before we bring on the stupid, I want to bring on the heroic.

Because I saw a video on Twitter that was kind of in line with what I'm talking about here with the spirit of America. There are people that put on as first responders, put their badge on. And I saw this through the National Fraternal Order of Police. And it's a Twitter account that I watch and pay attention to and watch.

And this was a video of a Florida Highway Patrol Trooper, Toni Schuck. I hope I'm pronouncing her name properly, but Toni is, she's heroic. There was an early morning, and I hope you've seen this video. It's scary, but it's real.

It's early morning. I think it's on a Saturday. There's a 10K race going on, right? You've all seen a race that happens in your town. They close down certain streets. There's groups of people walking. It's not convenient, you know. But usually you have local law enforcement helping out. Well, this particular morning, there was a 10K race going on. So an untold number of racers were going across this particular part of town.

of a road and they had closed the road so that the runners could run across it. I don't have all the details, but evidently the allegation is there was a drunk driver. Keep in mind, look at the time code on the video. It's like eight something in the morning. Drunk driver gets past a couple barriers and is suddenly going like full speed towards all of these runners.

and some very instantaneous decisions have to be made where the trooper has to take her SUV and take a head-on collision from an oncoming drunk driver so that that drunk driver won't take out

an untold number of innocent runners. And she does. You can see her steering her car left, right. And as the car's coming at her, swerving, she hits it head-on. And you see the camera, and they just collide. Now, I've heard that she's doing okay, that she's recovering at home. I hope she's in the news and we see that everything is okay, that she didn't break a bone, get a concussion or anything. But how many people would take a head-on collision and

And having to make an instantaneous decision, probably less than a minute, hey, we got a drunk driver. They're coming your way. You got to take them out. And the only way to take them out is to take a head-on collision. That is just heroic. And Tony Schuch, I hope we hear a lot about you because you are a true hero. That was fantastic.

One of the most amazing things I've seen and can't thank that Florida Highway Patrol trooper enough. She didn't know that was happening when she went to work that morning or that night. But, you know, 8 o'clock on a Saturday morning, she had to do the right thing, and she did. God bless her. All right, on the other end of the spectrum, time to bring on the stupid because, you know what, there's always somebody doing something stupid somewhere. ♪

My own home state of Utah down to Juab County. Juab County, wonderful people down there. I got a lot of good friends down there. They got one of the best rodeos in Nephi. If you ever want to go to a real western rodeo, you go to the Nephi. You go to Nephi and go to their rodeo. That's the legit thing. But they also got some people maybe doing some things down there in Juab that they should. It's very rural. I-15 passes north-south kind of through the county. But

But it's very rural. A lot of farmland, a lot of cattle, things like that. You get the picture. Well, evidently, there was, according to Fox 13, which I believe is where I pulled this out of, an inmate was released on a bond facing a vehicle theft charge. So persons in the county jail out on bond facing a possible vehicle theft charge.

This is about 5 o'clock in the morning. It's wintertime, folks. It's cold. So evidently, a trooper, or I should say a deputy there in the sheriff's office, not a trooper, decided that he was going to leave his car running in the parking lot at 5 o'clock in the morning. It's cold. I can understand why you want to get your heart, your deputy wants to get his police car all ready to go and get it warmed up. Well, this guy decided, hey, whatever.

Since I'm out of jail on a vehicle theft charge, why don't I just steal this one? So he went into the deputy's car and took off in it. Oh, my gosh. Headed, I think, southbound on I-15. The highway patrol went and got him, apprehended him again. Now he's facing another charge of vehicle theft. That, to me, is bringing on the stupid.

All right. You see the heroic and then you see the stupid and it just keeps life entertaining. But anyway, I want to bring on now. I want to phone a friend because I met this this person via Robert O'Brien. Robert O'Brien was the national security advisor for President Donald Trump.

Officially, you referred to him as Ambassador Robert O'Brien. He was the chief hostage negotiator for the United States, by the way. Fascinating stories about getting people out of being a hostage or unapproved detainees, if you will, but working for Trump. And then Trump appointed him the national security advisor. Well, his chief of staff...

helps make sure all the trains run on time and all the details that go along with that. It's a guy named Alex Gray. So I met Alex when he was chief of staff to the National Security Council, a wonderful, fascinating human being, the kind of person you can just trust and leave something with.

You know he's patriotic, he cares about his country, and is wicked smart. He understands details, and his recollection of detail was just unbelievable. So I got to know him through the years. He's now a candidate for the United States Senate in Oklahoma. The senator there stepped down before the end of his term, understand why.

And so it left an opening. And in doing so, there's going to be a special process. And Alex Gray has put his name to be that next senator from Oklahoma. So let's give him a call. Let's call Alex Gray.

Hello? Hey, Alex. Great. This is Jason Jafetz. Hey, Jason. How are you? Good, good, good. Hey, thanks so much for joining me on the Jason in the House podcast. I really do appreciate it. I'm glad to catch you on the phone. I know it's a busy time because you just announced you're running for the United States Senate in Oklahoma.

And I got to tell you, I hope people understand where you've been and what you've done. And I got to know you when you were the chief of staff for Robert O'Brien, the national security advisor for President Donald Trump. And boy, you had a full plate, a lot of things you needed to do as chief of staff for the National Security Council.

It was a there was never a dull moment and it was 100 miles an hour, seven days a week, about, well, frankly, 24 hours a day. Well, that is I mean, there's always something going on in the world, right? They're not all in the same time zone, that's for sure. And it's an exhausting position, but it's probably as great of a consequence as any job you can actually have in our government. Well, you know, it was an incredible experience.

I would say most particularly getting to work as close as I did to President Trump, getting to travel around the world with him, flying on Air Force One dozens of times, going with him to some of his kind of iconic overseas trips. I think a lot of people remember his trip to India and the amazing visuals of him in the cricket stadium with 100,000 people, getting to watch him at

the NATO summit, going to some of the pivotal Abraham Accords meetings in the Middle East. I mean, just kind of a front row seat to history and being a part of things, you know, growing up in Oklahoma. I mean, just things I never thought I'd get to do. Well, explain a little bit about what does that entail? To be honest, staff, explain the National Security Council, explain what the

what the chief's role is. And obviously you have national security advisor, Robert O'Brien, super talented, wonderful person, somebody I've known for years, but you're working hand in glove with him, but explain what the chief of staff's role responsibility does.

So the National Security Council is the principal national security advisory body to the president of the United States. And at the head of it is the national security advisor. When I was there, as you said, it was Ambassador Robert O'Brien. Under him was his deputy, Matt Pottinger. And then under those two was me as chief of staff. The chief of staff is really the guy or gal who keeps the trains running, really

kind of all the budget. NSC, for such an important place, has a minuscule budget. And so we're trying to run the president's principal advisory, national security advisory staff on a shoestring budget. And so that

doing that, all the personnel, all the hiring and firing, all of the, just the daily paper, movement of paper back and forth, that's kind of the wheels of government. Just really being, my office, and Jason, you've been there many times into what we call the upper suite in the West Wing, just a couple offices down from the Oval Office.

My office was right next to the national security advisor and really kind of the last stop before any paper, any people make it to his desk. And that, you know, that that really, you know, talk about having kind of that firsthand eyes on on pretty much anything of consequence that's kind of going through that door.

And who comprises the National Security Council? Explain all the different roles. And, you know, the world is such a complex place. And then you have the director of national intelligence. Right. You know, at the time was John Radcliffe. Again, a wonderful guy, somebody I served with in the House of Representatives office.

But he has, what, 17 different intelligence agencies reporting through him. So how does that all kind of mesh together?

Yeah. So, you know, obviously, John Ratcliffe, like you said, really incredible guy. He's got over on the intelligence side, he's got this massive apparatus that that is coming up with the day to day intelligence to inform what the president and the National Security Council are thinking about the world. But at the NSC itself, you know, the NSC is the council is comprised of people.

We call them the principles, the Secretary of State, Defense, Treasury, Commerce, Energy, Director of National Intelligence, Director of Central Intelligence. Those are the folks when the council meets, oftentimes chaired by the president himself, who are making the final decisions on these weighty matters of war and peace and all these things that are so important. And then

The day-to-day functioning of the NSC, as most people think of it, is the NSC staff. And that's comprised – when we came in, when Ambassador O'Brien and I came in, it was about 230 policy professionals, people who are drawn from the different agencies of government, who have expertise in regions or functions –

They serve on a rotational basis before they go back to their agencies. The kind of working level folks who make everything move at the NSC are called directors. They report up to senior directors who are usually political appointees, pretty senior subject matter experts in whatever their field is. And those folks report up to directors.

the chief of staff, the deputy national security advisor and the national security advisor. And that's really the process by which the president gets his advice and counsel when he's making these weighty national security decisions. So how often does the council meet? I mean, obviously there's a crisis of the moment, but how often are they meeting?

The interesting thing is the full council doesn't meet a whole lot. The way the NFC works in practice is there are a lot of ad hoc meetings with the principals who are invested in a various topic. So if it's Nord Stream 2, you'll have...

Dan Brouillette at the time, Secretary of Energy, will absolutely be there. If it's something more focused on China, you'll have maybe the U.S. trade representative, Robert Lighthizer, because of the economic and trade equities. So really, the full council with all of the statutory members doesn't mean a whole lot, but you'll have lots of principals meetings with the ad hoc group.

And one of the things we tried to do to make everything more efficient, less bureaucratic, was decide things where there is consensus at the lowest level possible. So we weren't just having death by meetings. And so we really tried to, I think, did a good job of making decisions at a lower level. So we weren't clogging the president's inbox every day.

Let's go back because, Alex, you rose to the top of the food chain at a fairly young age, and that doesn't happen by accident or because daddy knows somebody and he made a phone call. You had to actually be a player in the sense that

you had a lot of game uh in order to get there and i've seen that up close and personal so uh let's go back to alex gray to walk us through kind of your life and and uh you know where were you born was it a big family small family big city little city what was life like when you were coming into the world and started to build some memories and have some life experiences

Yeah, so I'm a fourth-generation Oklahoman, but had the misfortune to actually be born in Florida. My mom and grandparents and great-grandparents on her side, Oklahoma roots, and then ended up moving back to Oklahoma when I was a kid, graduated from high school there, did my first year of college at Oklahoma State.

and decided that, you know, I wanted to get into this national security field. And so finished up college at George Washington University in D.C. And then, you know, growing up, you know, really knew that foreign policy, national security was something that captivated me and that I wanted to find a way to play a part and, you know, have been kind of

working in that field and kind of moving in that orbit since I graduated from college. What did your parents do for a living, for instance?

Yeah. So my dad is a lawyer and my mom is a homemaker. And, you know, we never don't not a political family, not a family that's really steeped in government or foreign policy or international relations, but, you know, a family that really encouraged democracy.

and asking questions and being curious and, you know, a family where there was never an expectation that you would do any particular thing. You know, if you had said I was going to run for the United States Senate, you know, I mean, I think people would have just laughed. I mean, not because it was...

you know, something that they didn't think was possible, but because it just wasn't, you know, we weren't that kind of politically ambitious family. We're just, you know, the goal was always for everyone to kind of have a, have a good life, have a good career, do better each generation. And, you know, not, not setting out to, to have, you know, a lot of, you know,

ambition in the political sphere. But I think because I was always encouraged to ask questions and to be inquisitive, you know, I kind of gravitated towards that international relations space, particularly kind of coming of age during the post, right after, you know, the post 9-11 world where foreign policy was so at the forefront of everyone's minds. It really, you know, made such a, it made a huge impact on me. So, you know, your parents,

get a wild hair. They go off to Florida. That's where you're born. But then you come back. Did you have brothers, sisters were your only child? Have a half brother. Uh, my, my dad remarried when I was, uh, when I was younger and have a half brother, who's a freshman in college in, uh, in Florida. And, uh, then my, uh, my mom and I, uh,

Oklahoma, went back to Oklahoma and went to high school there, played football. Where in Oklahoma?

Oklahoma City. Family's been in Oklahoma City for quite a while and played a little bit of football. Wasn't great. I always have to tell our friend Robert, who's always trying to increase my football skills and the retelling. I'm not a football star like you, Jason. Well, you've got to be a place kicker. I mean, I hope you're going to tell me you were a punter or a place kicker in the most important positions on the field.

Yeah, more like a subpar tight end and a decent defensive end. Well, you're a tall guy. I mean, you're not small. And so, yeah, you got some height. I could see where they would want you blocking or throwing a nice out pattern to get a few yards. I can totally see that in you. But, yeah.

Place kicking, you know, there's a reason why they call it football. So, you know, they didn't name the whole sport after tight end. You know, they named it after the kicker. So, obviously, that's the most important position. Okay, so you're playing some sports. What was, like, what's the first job you had? What did...

You're probably doing some stuff for your mom, but what's the first real job away from mom that you had to get? The first job I had was in college. My mom was very...

very kind when I was in high school. She said, look, do your studies, do your football, and then you're going to be working all through college. You're going to be working the rest of your life, but get through high school. So she was nice to me on that. And then when I went to college, I started working for a professor who was writing a biography of William F. Buckley.

And, you know, really kind of in doing that, it really, as someone who had been focused on foreign policy a lot in my reading and my studies,

getting to really dig into conservatism and reading Buckley, reading his writings, reading kind of that Reagan era, you know, kind of the canon of conservatism from Whitaker Chambers all the way down. That had a really powerful impact on my political philosophy. So, you know, it was kind of one of those funny first jobs because, you know,

You're supposed to go into these summer college jobs and just kind of, you know, I think just get through them in some instances. To me, it was a really formative intellectual experience. Well, that is different because a lot of guys, if you ask them that question, you say, I wash cars down at the

quick car wash or something like that. Or, you know, yeah, I was digging ditches out on the... Right. But this is... I'm starting to understand why you're so kind of wicked smart here. That's a pretty conservative professor who's writing a book about William F. Buckley Jr., and that's interesting. So you went and so you got your degree, or you started to get your degree there, but then you transferred to George Washington. Yeah.

Tell us about that experience. Well, if you've ever been to Stillwater, Oklahoma, which is a wonderful place to

you can't find a city more different from Stillwater than Washington, D.C. So it's a bit of a culture shock. And, you know, definitely a few moments of walking around downtown Washington thinking, what have I gotten myself into? But, you know, look, it was an amazing kind of time. I love my time at Oklahoma State because, first of all,

cowboys football i know i'm supposed to you know be kind of ecumenical about cowboys and sooners but you know we we root for whatever oklahoma team makes it the farthest but you know at least growing up i was a cowboy fan cowboy football fan that was a great experience a lot of fun get to washington you know it it was uh

You know, coming in right at the Obama administration has started and I'm watching the Tea Party movement. You know, we're watching is this is kind of the era when you were coming into Congress, you know, watching all of the kind of reaction to what had happened in the Obama administration with the spending, with the foreign policy failures. And I'm just thinking to myself, I really want to dig into this. I want to get into this.

you know, the Hill, because that was where the action was. The House Republicans were the ones standing up to the Obama administration. So I started doing internships at think tanks on the Hill, got my first internship for Congressman Tom Cole from Oklahoma. And that was kind of my introduction to someone you served with, who that was kind of my introduction to Oklahoma, well, Oklahoma politics to some extent, but also to

How do we work day to day on the Hill to advance conservative principles? You're listening to Jason in the House. We'll be back with more of my conversation with Alex Gray right after this.

You know, people can take these internships a lot of different ways, but what is it that you did? I mean, because most people, they kind of go in, they'll serve three, four months and then, you know, you kind of dismiss and push them along, but very few of them actually get invited to stay and, hey, let's do more with this guy because they're pretty smart. Yeah. You know, I, I stayed with, with Cole for, I think it was two semesters as an intern, one or two semesters. You know, he was a

amazing member. I have a lot of respect for Mr. Cole. Everyone calls him Tom, but I will always call him Mr. Cole. I just can't think of him any other way. He's a towering figure in Oklahoma politics. And, you know, kind of

I think the way to do those internships is you're thinking about it. And if you want to have a career in government, just be a sponge, pick up everything you can. So, you know, I was just trying, you know, you get these you've had hundreds of interns, right? You shuffle through and you're just trying to pick up as much as you humanly can about how a congressional office works.

how members of Congress do their jobs. And I tried to talk to every member of the staff, tried to talk to as many constituents as I could, find out what made them tick, what they were focused on. But the time I left that internship, I just thought, man, I am hooked. This is what I want to be. This is kind of the sort of thing I want to be doing with my career.

So how did you, how and when did you first kind of meet up with Ambassador Robert O'Brien, the National Security Advisor? Did you, did you know him before O'Brien was appointed to the, to be the National Security Advisor or is that something that just happened and you came together because he took on that new role? So Ambassador O'Brien and I got to know each other through our shared background.

concern about China. So we met in the years before the 2016 campaign because of our shared concern about China. And we had been connected by some mutual friends because, you know, Robert has been writing about these things for years. And I...

I'd started writing about China and the Chinese Navy when I was in college. I had my first piece published in National Review in 2010 talking about the Chinese Navy. And Robert and I were kind of kindred spirits back when that was not a topic that most foreign policy establishment types were kind of on their radar. And so we got to know each other and became kind of email buddies.

And, you know, when he was in Washington, we'd see each other. He was a has still is a great mentor. And we, you know, learned a lot from him for people who don't know Robert's background. I mean, he's not only an incredible, successful lawyer and litigator, but he's also a big thinker, strategic thinker on national security and foreign policy. And, you know, while he's

being out in California in the kind of 2000s, 2010s, right. You know, being practicing law, doing, you know, raising a family. He was also writing a book and writing constant op eds about how conservatives can build a foreign policy that,

gets us past some of the Obama era failures. And we really built this bond. And so by 2016, and we can, I'm skipping ahead a little bit, but by 2016, when I was going into the Trump administration, he was going into the Trump administration, we were already pretty good friends at that point. So what was your experience like with President Trump when you first met him? But

any interesting stories to share with us that would kind of help illuminate who he is and how he... Because, you know, my experience, much more limited than yours. Much, much less. But with such a different thing than the public persona that gets blasted out there by those who purport to, you know, show the inside of somebody. I just find...

President Trump to be far different than how he's portrayed in the national kind of traditional media. But what was your personal experience with him? Well, that couldn't be more true in terms of the media portrayal versus the reality. He is an incredibly thoughtful person.

knowledgeable guy and he's instinctually savvy. He, because of his background, he knows how to negotiate. He understands people. He understands how to maneuver in any given situation so that, you know, when he was the president, he knew how to take that kind of

savvy that he had learned as a big time real estate developer. And he was constantly applying it to how to get the United States the best advantage in any situation. And I'd be in meetings and I would be in the room with him and you just watch him sizing up the opponent, sizing up other countries for, you know, what's the way to get an advantage for the American people. And it was really something to watch. And, you know, the other thing that

People don't understand about him. And I think the savvy and the, you know, kind of instinctual intelligence people, you know, even if they don't like them, I think they can probably admit there's there's some of that. What people don't get is he is he is his mind is a steel trap. He remembers everything. And you give him data points about.

Armenia and Azerbaijan and the Republic of Georgia and whatever the issue is. And it could be issues that, you know, he certainly was not exposed to heavily when he was a New York real estate developer. And he knows it like, you know, someone who's been studying the stuff for years. And that was one of the first things, my first time I met him in Trump Tower during the campaign in 2016. And he was reciting a

details about Reagan era foreign policy decisions. And I just thought, you know, this is a guy who's been paying attention as a private citizen in a way that, you know, clearly the media doesn't appreciate, but it was informed throughout his presidency. I mean, throughout his presidency, he was just gathering information, soliciting advice, taking everything in, all sorts of different opinions, synthesizing it,

retaining it and then making really good judgments. And that was one of my key takeaways from four and a half years with them. You know, I, that was my observation too, is he is wicked smart. He does remember everything. He knows how to cut to the nub of an issue and ask a very pointed question. Um,

I found him to want to test to see if you're going to BS something or if you're going to give him a straight, candid answer. He did that with me a few times. And then once I kind of, I think, passed that test, that, hey, all right, we're good. And so, but it can remember details just automatically.

Like, it really is absolutely amazing. So, I mean, during that time, you're interacting with the president like on almost a daily basis, right? Yeah. I mean, when I was chief of staff, you know, it ebbed and flowed. You know, I had three different jobs in the White House. And my my final one is chief of staff at the NSC. You know, I was I was.

incredibly fortunate to get to spend a decent amount of time with him and, you know, to watch his, his thought process, uh, to watch how he makes decisions, to watch how he handles, you know, if we can talk as much as we want about the amount of decision-making that someone in the kind of role I had, or even someone in Robert O'Brien's role has, uh,

There is nothing in the world comparable to the decision making, the speed and the volume that the president of the United States has. And it's small things and it's medium things and it's huge war and peace decisions. It's everything. And watching him take those decisions and break them down into manageable pieces, but then tie them back to the big picture. Just as one example,

China policy is the most complicated bilateral relationship the U.S. has. And there's a military component, an economic component, a trade component, a diplomatic component. And the president knew without having to really be taught, just instinctually knew how all the pieces fit together.

how a trade deal impacted our concerns in the South China Sea, how the South China Sea related to China and India and how India related to the U.S. and Japan. I mean, he just knew all of that. And I that was one of the things that just impressed me the most about working for him. So, I mean, you've been endorsed for your Senate race there in Oklahoma by, you know, some of the people you work the closest with, which I think speaks in volumes to.

Rick Grinnell, Kash Patel, Senator Mike Lee, and Ambassador Robert O'Brien. They've all endorsed your run for Congress, but

Walk us through that little process, Alex, where you said, you know, I think maybe I should run for the United States Senate. Like, what did you have? Were you eating a bowl of Lucky Charms and you said, hey, why not? Or I mean, how did that all come about? Well, you know, Senator Inhofe, someone obviously who.

Oklahomans have a lot of respect for someone who was just reelected in 2020, been in Congress or in the Senate for 28 years, and made this unexpected decision about two weeks ago to leave next January. And I'm not a politician, Jason. I'm a national security guy. I've never run for anything, didn't have plans to run for anything. But I thought, look,

There are two reasons why we need someone with my background in this race. I mean, the first one is that we need Donald Trump's legacy perpetuated in the United States Senate. We need the America first legacy on foreign policy, but also on domestic policy. We need that. We need a champion of that in the Senate, not just someone who's going to say, well, Donald Trump's very, very popular. In fact, the most popular person in the history of Oklahoma, I would argue, is

who, you know, so I'm going to embrace that mantle. We need someone who worked for Donald Trump when it was hard. It wasn't easy when it was when it was certainly, you know, when I joined his campaign in 2016. I think most people in Washington would tell you that was that was not considered a great career move at the time for me. And, you know, I did it anyway because I believed in his message. And I'm, you know, I want I think that type of

dedication and commitment to what he stands for and what the America first movement stands for needs a champion in the Senate. The second is

is look at what's happening in the world. I mean, look at what we're dealing with in the year since Donald Trump left office, whether it's Ukraine, whether it's Iran, whether it's North Korea, China, go down the line. We need someone who has real, serious national security experience in the Senate on day one, someone who knows how this works behind the scenes, who knows the questions to ask, who can't be fooled by the intelligence community or

isn't going to have the wool pulled over their eyes by the deep state and their hidden agendas. You know, we need someone who can go in there on day one and be a national security leader. And that's, to me, you know, I prayed on it. I talked to my wife about it. And we decided, you know, this is a once in many decades opportunity to be of service.

So what did you sit down, Rochelle, right? That's her name. You sit down with your wife and say, honey, I got something I want to share with you because now stay with me. I want to explain this to you because, you know, as I've said before on this podcast, friends don't let friends run for Congress. So, you know, there's a lot of good you could do, but there's also, you know, there's some bad along the way. So what was her attitude? What was her response? Obviously she's supportive or you probably wouldn't be running, right?

No, she was incredibly supportive. You know, I think both of our first reactions were, well, you know, you've never run for anything. You know, this is totally outside of what of what you've you've ever done or thought you're going to do. You know, this year you spent the last decade or so in in, you know,

Working on national security and as a congressional staffer, working in the White House, working on the president's campaign, you know, then building a business for the last year. You know, these are these are good experiences, but they're very different than running for office. Right. And, you know, I think that was that was both of our reaction. But then we talked about it.

And, you know, she's pregnant with our first son, our first child, a boy who's going to be born. Thank you. She's going to be born in the next couple of months and tell people a good fifth generation Oklahoman. And, you know, one of the things that we just kept talking about was

We are not, we're just not comfortable with the world and the country that he's being born in. It doesn't look like the country that we grew up in. We're upset with the direction things are headed.

And, you know, I have and we both agreed I have experiences that are different from anyone else who's serving in the Senate, anyone else who's running for the Senate. And if if I don't take this opportunity as difficult or or kind of outside of my comfort zone that it might be, you know, I think I think it's a missed opportunity and I think it's a missed opportunity to to share that.

the things that I've learned in a positive way that can make a difference. And she was ultimately really supportive of that. Well, that's great because, you know, we need good people who want to serve, but you also want to have people who have the right kind of background, the right kind of experience, the right kind of perspective. And you're right. You are one of the very few who has such an in-depth knowledge to be able to call bull on a lot of stuff that

You know, gets presented to I can tell you as a member of Congress, the number of times we had somebody from the administration come and stand up and try to pull the wool over eyes or just gloss over something and say, oh, there's nothing to see here. I mean, that's what I spent all day every day looking at. And and yet to have somebody with that kind of depth of knowledge here.

I think it would serve the nation well, but Oklahomans, boy, would they benefit from having somebody? Because I think they're about, Oklahomans, the ones I've met and interact with, boy, they're about as patriotic as anybody you could possibly meet. And their commitment to service and, and look, you know, James Langford is, is one of my, one of my favorites out there. And he and I served on the oversight committee and,

He, too, is just – has this wonderful heart, this conviction, and this commitment to our country. And he's got his head and his values, you know, screwed on straight. And I – you know, my experience with you is I see so many of the similar things. And so that's going to be a fascinating round. What's your biggest worry? Like, when you –

Having seen what you've seen, the amount of classified information that you can't tell us all about, I want to ask you about UFOs, but I won't. We'll have to save that until we're in a skip or something. But outside the UFOs, what keeps you up at night? What do you worry about for this country? I think right now what I'm most worried about is...

Economic security really is national security. President Trump said this over and over and over again. And I think it's true. And it's not something that most of the kind of establishment Washington foreign policy types take into their calculations, right? Because they don't

They don't live the type of lives that most people, certainly in Oklahoma, live. And I think the rest of the country, too. But paying what folks are paying at the pump right now for gas because of the energy policies of the Biden administration, not only is that

damaging people at home, damaging their wallets, hurting their livelihoods, their retirements. Not only is that incredibly damaging on a personal level, but it damages our national security in a way that I think is going to have long-term consequences. For instance, these energy policies are

are for the the cancelling keystone the moratorium on on leasing on federal land all the the climate agenda the green new deal radical climate agenda the epa regulations that are out of control that are hitting oklahoma certainly extremely hard

All of those things are putting us more and more at the mercy of foreign oil markets and particularly foreign oil markets that don't necessarily have our best interests at heart. We got past that with the shale revolution and the fracking boom. We got past that under Donald Trump. And in a year, we've gone back to that type of dependence. And, you know, we wouldn't we if we had continued on the track of.

that Donald Trump had us from an energy standpoint, we wouldn't be nearly as susceptible to the price spikes that we've seen when there's geopolitical instability in places like Ukraine. And to me, that is what's keeping me up at night right now. I'll tell you longer term, Jason, China.

is the threat. China is the greatest geopolitical challenge that this country has faced, I would argue, in its history, because we've never faced a threat that is as economically significant

China is, and that allows them to have a military that ultimately, I think, can become, if we're not careful, if we don't make the investments we have to make, can become a true peer of the U.S. military. And that's a terrifying thought because it's in the hands of an authoritarian Chinese Communist Party whose ambitions are really limitless.

And so that's, I mean, between energy prices in the here and now and what that does to our dependency on overseas markets and China in the medium and long term, I think we have a lot of challenges that we need real leadership on. Yeah, it's like what Ronald Reagan was saying at the time, you know, we're just one generation away from losing it. And if we don't take care of

You know, your approach to the military is just right. We don't want a peer. We want to be the biggest, baddest military on the face of the planet so nobody ever, ever thinks that they even have an inkling of a chance in going up against the United States of America. And yet if you kind of go the Obama-Biden-Harris way, you know...

it's just scary how quickly things can be degraded to the point of, boy, now we've got to play catch-up. It's going to be really hard to be able to do that. And I think you're right on the Navy. I mean, certainly I've watched what Robert O'Brien has talked about, but...

The number of ships, the type of capabilities that we have, how dilapidated some of these war machines are. They're getting so old that we have not refurbished them and grown them. And if you look at compared to China, holy cow, they can crank these things out. It's unbelievable how fast they can make them.

Well, look, you know, best example is the U.S. Navy is going to build seven or so ships this year. The Chinese built three in one day last year. You know, we we we have to understand we're not building a world class military for the sake of building a world class military. We're not building a world class military because we want conflict or we're looking for for ways to use it.

We're building a world-class military because we don't ever want to use it. And Ronald Reagan's peace through strength approach continues to be the best way to deter conflict. We're not building – no one is looking –

John Quincy Adams said, you know, we're not we don't want to go abroad looking for monsters to fight. You know, that's that's not what this country is about. That's certainly not what the America First movement is about. But we are about overwhelming power, overwhelming strength. So we don't have to send American men and women abroad to risk their lives. And that's that's

Really, to me, that's what I want to focus on in Washington, among other things. But I think on the national security side, that agenda remains extraordinarily popular. And the fact that Donald Trump is the first president since the end of the Cold War to not use military force abroad, to not start a war. I think that's an incredibly Americans react to that with with respect.

viscerally understand that that's where they are. That's where Americans are, peace through strength. Yeah, no, I think that's the only way. It's the way that's worked, and it's the way that creates the most peace. That's what I think the Democrats miss in this whole equation so many times. You're listening to Jason in the House. We'll be back with more right after this.

We're of course talking with Alex Gray, who's running for the United States Senate there in the special election that's happening in Oklahoma. Let me transition here because you've been asked a lot of questions. You've served your country by serving for the President of the United States through the National Security Council. You've worked with Congressman Tom Cole and whatnot. But

I got some rapid questions I need to ask you, Alex. And I don't know if you're properly prepared for this. I don't care how many times you've studied Robert, you know, the Buckleys and all that. But yeah, I got some rapid questions. If you don't mind, I'm going to transition to asking those. Is that all right? Let's give it a shot. All right. This can be illuminating here about you, Alex Gray. First concert you attended. Oh, my gosh. First concert.

I think it was a country concert. I want to say it was Garth. I think it was maybe it was a Shania Twain concert. Shania Twain? I went to a Shania Twain concert. Yeah. All right. I don't want to say that. It might have been multiple country performers, but it was definitely a country concert. And I probably was in college.

Yeah, they probably get a lot of those rolling through. I'm guessing that Oklahoma, if you're a country music act, my guess is...

Yeah, you're stopping in Oklahoma. We get an awful lot of them here in Utah, but not as many as maybe Oklahoma does or Texas. Because we produce most of the best of them. Anyway, Garth Brooks, Toby Keith. I like Toby Keith. Now that guy has a voice. Talk about a distinguishable voice that's got country written all over it. Toby Keith, I can't even do it justice. All right, what was your high school mascot?

A cyclone. Very fitting for Oklahoma. You know, cyclones are such that I really want to see one, but I really don't want to see one because I know how devastating it is to where it is it's landing. I don't want to hit somebody's house or even tear up their farmland. It just kind of makes you sad. But the ominous presence of a cyclone, I really do want to see. I like doing wildlife photography. I'd really like to photograph some of these cyclones.

Hey, well, there's a couple of months in Oklahoma where you can go about every single day and have a chance of seeing one. Oh, yeah. It scares me, but that's kind of part of the reason I want to do it. I might go out there. I'm definitely getting a rental car, and I'm going to get like – normally, I don't get any of the extra things. You know, you check all the boxes. Oh, I don't want that. I'm going to get like damage, everything I get and go chase –

Cyclones. Yeah, you'll need the hail protection for sure in Oklahoma. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Did you have a pet growing up? We had a dog, a dog named Duke, a Dalmatian. Duke. What kind of dog was Duke? Dalmatian. A Dalmatian. Not everybody has a Dalmatian. They're not the calmest animals I've ever encountered. No, no. Duke. Loved Duke, but Duke was a...

dude was a wild, wild dog, probably not a great pet for a little boy. But, uh, you know, I saw 101 Dalmatians as a kid and I wouldn't leave my mom alone until she got me a, uh, until she got me a Dalmatian. Wow. Your mom put up with a lot because, well, I don't know. It's a wild dog for a little boy. That, that sounds like fun. Like you wrestle with them, you know, it's, it's,

Never-ending energy for a Dalmatian. Hopefully that kept you occupied. We wore each other out. The wannabe tight end on the football team that you've probably been tackled many times by Duke, I would guess. Yeah, we wore each other out. Okay, so Rochelle and you are going to have dinner, and you call up your wife and you say, Hey, honey, guess what? I got a special guest tonight. If you could invite anybody...

Any time period, dead or alive, if you could have just one person come on over to join you and your wife for dinner, who would that person be? I'd say any time period, it's got to be Winston Churchill. I mean, just talk about an extraordinary leader, someone who lived 90 years and saw –

You know, everything from, you know, he was born and Queen Victoria was was ruling England. And when he left, you know, Queen Elizabeth, the same queen that we have today, was there. I mean, he lived through this incredible world and did so much and saved saved freedom in World War Two. So, you know, talk about a dinner guest.

Yeah, no, he would be fascinating and the stories he could tell. That's interesting. All right. Unique talent that Alex Gray has that nobody knows about. Unique talent. You know, something you can do. Can you juggle? Can you, I mean, like, yeah, I can do this. Not many people know I can, but I'm actually pretty good at it. Man. Well, it certainly is not...

Certainly is not playing tight end. I've already revealed that I had terrible hands. Or kicking. It's not that. Yes, yes. Well, yeah, yeah. But, you know, it's definitely not that. Well, you know, look, I'm a decent –

Decent whistler. I have a surprisingly good whistle. Really? I won't demonstrate it now, but it took me a while to develop the skill. One of those things growing up where everyone was always whistling, I couldn't do it. I sat there and I said, I'm just going to work on it until I get there. I worked on it and now I guess that's my best answer for a surprising skill.

Yeah, that's quite the talent. So is, I'm sorry, is this like a, I can whistle Dixie and I can carry a tune or is it like I can, I can whistle like to get everybody's attention?

Yeah, it's kind of a combination of both. I mean, you know, you whistle for a cab, but also, like, I'm not musical at all. So my idea of carrying a tune is probably different from someone who's actually musical. But I like to tell myself I can whistle along to a tune if I need to. All right. So in the shower, I get that. All right.

This is the most important question, Alex. This is kind of the determining factor as to whether you go on to the United States Senate. So let's get this one right, okay? Pineapple on pizza, yes or no? I'm not a fan. So I, yeah, not a fan, more of a cheese guy, maybe the occasional pepperoni if I'm feeling adventurous. All right. Okay, well...

There's nothing wrong with just being a plain cheese guy, but yeah, the right answer to this is no, no, no pineapple on pizza. So good, good answer. Probably pass on fruit on pizza. Yeah, like that's exactly right. Why do you put something wet in fruit on pizza? You can have it separate in the bowl. You can eat it in the same meal. That's totally fine. Exactly. Have some green beans too. Have at it. You would put green beans on your pizza. Why would you put that pineapple on your pizza, you know, or peas? Would you put peas on your pizza? No, no.

it's a simple 100 all right um what's that other thing for alex gray you know when i say the other thing like for me like i i mentioned earlier i like to get out and do wildlife photography when i want to clear my head forget about all the woes and problems and questions facing the world i go out and chase animals and and try to get their pictures and um so what do you do to kind of clear your head step away

Is it whistling or do you do more than that? No, that's fortunately whistling is my strange other talent. But no, to actually clear my head, I just like to go for a run. And I would find...

after, especially after nights at the white house, you know, I'd come back and you've got a hundred things kind of going through your head and what do you need to do tomorrow? And, and, you know, take 20 minutes, 30 minutes and just go for a run and don't take the phone. Don't take the, you know, just step away from it and go for a run. And, you know, I've always found that's kind of the best way to reset and clear your head. No, I think that's true. I find that, um,

Some of my best thinking and points of clarity happen when I'm either getting some exercise or just driving in the car with the radio on. I mean, it's just the quietness of that. I really do dig those moments, and I just feel better after I do it. So I totally relate to the whole running thing. All right, best advice you ever got?

Best advice I ever got was just work harder than everyone else. I didn't grow up with a family that was, like I said, in government or politics. I didn't grow up with a family that was kind of in the foreign policy elite. And I –

Came to Washington, didn't know a single person, you know, kind of just just had to had to outwork my peers. And that was kind of always been my always been kind of my watchword is be the first one to work, the last one to leave, volunteer for tasks that that.

other people don't want to do. Um, and look, that was whether you're, you're an intern or you're the chief of staff of the national security council, or you're, you're running for the U S Senate. I mean, it doesn't, it doesn't matter what you're doing. Um, I got that advice from, uh,

an early mentor, early mentor in Washington who said, you know, look, everyone, too many people in Washington start with a leg up, whether it's family or it's going to the right school or whatever it is. But

But ultimately, you're going to be judged by how you perform and you're going to be judged by how hard you work. And if you outwork everyone, that's going to be that you're going to be judged by that. And I've always found that to be true. No, that's I think that's absolutely right. It is so true. Think about how many people would have loved to have the position that you were able to get to at a very young age. And you did so because you were

were wicked smart, outworked people and applied yourself and were trustworthy. You just can't survive at that level for that long and then get the endorsements of the people that you have in your Senate campaign unless, unless you were the real deal and actually produced. And, um, and so thanks for your service in those years and the Trump administration. I,

served our country well and it was one of the safest periods in my lifetime. So thanks for your part and your role in that. And listen, I wish you nothing but the best and it'll be fascinating to see what the good people of Oklahoma decide. But Alex Gray, who is a candidate for the United States Senate there in Oklahoma,

Thanks so much for joining us on the Jason in the House podcast. Thanks for having me, Jason. And thanks for making me reveal that I can actually play tight end. There's some game film that will back us up on that one, too, I'm sure. Yeah, well, and Robert refuses to acknowledge that my high school football days are not the stuff of legend. Yeah, well...

Yeah, exactly. And so he's quite well taken. Yes. All right, Alex Gray, thank you again for joining us. Thanks, Jason. I appreciate it. All right. I can't thank Alex Gray enough for, again, for his service to our country and in a very pivotal role, but also for spending the time, give us a little insight. One of the more successful people in the bureaucratic mess of Washington, D.C., and one of the pivotal roles in national security.

So thanks, Alex Gray, for joining us. And thanks for joining us on the Jason in the House podcast. I hope you have a chance to rate it. You can click on some stars, subscribe if you can to the podcast. That would be great. We'd appreciate it.

You can head over to foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you listen to podcasts. You'll find a lot of Fox personalities and Fox folks that have some really good podcasts out there. And I hope you're able to join us next week with another interesting interview and some insight and obviously highlighting the stupid. So, again, thanks for joining us. I'm Jason Chaffetz, and this has been Jason in the House. We'll see you next time.

From the Fox News Podcast Network. I'm Janice Dean, Fox News Senior Meteorologist. Be sure to subscribe to the Janice Dean Podcast at foxnewspodcast.com or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And don't forget to spread the sunshine.