#273 – The Threat of A.I., Building in Public vs Transparency, and Code vs No-Code with KP
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What's up?

You as gone, it's gone. Our men .

questioned for you, do you think that all this new AI stuff represents any sort of risk to the job that you do, that you and I do not just podcasting, but like running in the action is a community?

No, I don't think so. I am very optimistic about like A I the new wave of A I and basically any technology. As long as I maintain like a relationship with that technology where i'm like, how can I use this? Like i'm totally fine making myself redundant in any job. It's like as long as i'm really proactive about IT, I currently don't have a lot of concern but maybe i'm just not i'm too short sided so you .

don't have really like thoughts that like, okay, there maybe they just won't be any of these jobs. Hey, what's up? K, P.

U, K, P.

hey, hi Harry. guys.

good. How are you?

great?

Great to see you. We are engaged in a spirit debate, not, not really .

a debate.

Beauty, O, G, P, C, what are your thoughts scape like you? Do you feel at all threatened .

by the advent of AI? Not really threatened. But I feel like I have to be sharp on my toes in the sense that I have to read apt and relearn and yeah open to learning and the new way.

But this I was like, yeah, long as you are like adapting.

like yeah if you don't adapt, you're going to be right this right now if we worn through through ten years ago and this is the chance, I mean, this is the opportunity for like all of us will feel like the truck driver about know who .

are worried .

about the .

ah yeah yes. I think the first time in my adult hood, like the first time my career ever felt like, oh, should I have to adapt I kind of felt that when mobile came out yeah and then I just didn't I like, I just keep making web apps. And I was actually like the gold age of web apps, like a decade.

So was total. This is the first time I like, if I don't learn AI stuff, like a year to from now, everything i've built might be obsessive. I have not have the ability to catch .

up yeah cause you know that um that program article or he says keep your identity small yeah it's like a really famous program article. And I think that mostly has to do almost like with the um the emotional downsides of strongly identifying as like this kind of person or that kind of person. Oh xyz religion follower i'm this right.

If you tie yourself to a certain identity then when anyone attacks you or criticizes you, you're going to like clean to that and not really think logically. But that's purely the emotional side. I think there's also like like career langevin sustainability sideways if you don't feel as attached to like what do you caught and you are a programming like I caught in a programme since I was twelve years old. Someone else might be like i'm a writer, like I have great judgment, great creativity. If you have those kinds of identity attachments, I think you're going to be a lot less like open till like reevaluating ways that you can provide value.

It's like of a eighteen ninety and you're like, i'm a horse show maker. I make, I make horsey.

I actually have a question for you guys. You know, do you ever wonder what am I gonna be doing twenty five years from now?

Oh yeah, all the time.

The reason I even bring this up is, and this is a good context for some of the background of our sort of pod a coat, like when I when when I saw both of you, I so was desperate and longing, wanted to be a founder, founder, founder, founder, founder, founder, right? I know that there's millions out there who might listen to your stuff. And there I mean my stuff too there is aspiring founder is such a great place to be because there's everything feels like, you know hike away like if you just take the hike to the time, right?

You think about when we met three years ago.

yeah three years ago, yeah, in december twenty, twenty two, I became a founder finally, that I didn't think that telfer's to find a CEO fat great for ninety minutes. And then I was like, okay, what? thanks.

Where's the customers? Where's the revenue? Where's the A R R? M R R? I am like bigger shift is like with with some of the stuff especially I started out as consulting, which is like services.

I'm like a different scale, this labor hours and like all these things get sound like and then like it's not as fun. Yeah this that is fun and that was fun. And the founders .

like doing cocaine, a ninety minute high.

Yeah, exactly. You have like a good cool high for a and this funny, because I don't, I don't have a logo, I don't have a business card. And I thought that when I became a founder, I would have all of these dogs in a row, like, I would go to stables, I would get a print out.

I, I had nothing right. The moment I got the first stripe notification is when I really felt a sense of peace. And like, all, okay, alright. So this is legit now we're in IT, but often times not.

Three, three and four months into this now, I feel like I finally got a little grasp of this, but i'm still having to force myself into this mindset of you're never gonna a salary again, man. Your job is to make friendship with the risk. Your middle me has to be volatility and shit that you can control like, you know, like being able to be resilient through ups and downs, right?

So sometimes that's going to wonder, what would I be doing twenty five years old now like and because i've never gonna back w to like once a refounded, it's almost like unless something royally screwed up. And like, I really, really, really need the job, I don't think I will go back to you. I wonder, like what would I be doing? And so that brings us to this point around, as a founder, really your identity has to be small.

Yeah, you just forced to keep IT small. If not, you saw attach to one idea like, oh, one particular problem or whatever. And you're like if that doesn't pan out, you feel like a big voice. So the Better version is just keep IT small. Like what pod was saying.

you know, part of that journey that you had where you are not a founder, you are A W two employee, and you saw people like courtland and or whatever, right? You see the founders and you go, oh, pying this guy I wanted become that thing. Yeah, that thing like the journey to become that.

Is this like big head of novelty, right? Like you had to like, make changes. You probably to makes sacrifices. And then, like, you begin that.

And that was fun and then you've got there and you're like, okay, like what? Now I almost call IT like the final horizon myth. It's like this idea that when you get to that thing, it's just like the horizon is just going to be gone.

But like, as a founder, the really magical thing, my opinion, is that like are right. Do you have no more products that you can build? Do you have no more like market that you can happen to?

Do you have no more parts of the business that you are like that like represent weaknesses for you? A lot of people are good at coding, but they're not good at marketing. A lot of people are good at writing, but they are not good at talking to people, right? For me, that's the fun thing .

I can from other day about this. And he is a it's our body brand in chaining. He is a good, good on this was just like, if you like something, do IT again. And then charlie money, as another quote, this is the fundamental rule of life, is to repeat what works.

Yeah, if there's something that made you really excited, whether that was building stuff with no code rather that was like making money for your start up, whether that was doing marketing and then you like accomplish whatever goal you are trying to hit with that thing. You shouldn't change your life and stop doing that thing. Just go back and do IT again. And chances are you actually like IT just as much you did the first time around because the goal was never really the point.

Yeah and so it's it's big on weird now where there was a big change shift in my mindset too because for twelve years I was A W two in america, but I always thought that I had the under D N A. I I know a lot of people think this, but I know I anna, be found now that i'm here. And when you N W to expression in corporate life, because, you know, both of you, if you, I remember when I met you, I was working at delt airlines.

Another thing that a lot of people, uh, a big part of their brains, band wit, goes into, how do I baLance my full time job and my patience? Yeah, for me that was the biggest thing to solo at the time. I was like, how do you baLance as if there .

was you have a family too, right?

I family too. And now I look back, that's the easier shit. That's like little league shit right now, like what i'm going through with a hot now it's like I can like I look in the mirror and I can escape like I am the full responsibility for the company and there is no way to hide. I can even be I can't even say I have an anticipation. B it's like my full time job is getting customers building services, develop ship and whatever.

So i'm like h there's no escape being a founder so the horizon thing back to chatting IT feels like now i'm like prosper ding a lot of time not worrying about what's my next ago that used to be my whole default for last ten years now i'm thinking about um it's all the most indefinite game what is the next day for a month thing that I wanted chase and pursue like with fun because it's an infinite game like i'm never gonna we will never gonna have a day where i'm not worried about having a customer right unless like you, I don't know you hit like a building the outcome like, you know well, a fig mall, right? But even there were like the adobe deals pulling people out or something, I think it's like there's never certainty. So my friends who I still lap friends with its from delt airlines and when I was a Turner, they always think that when they have all the answers, they can be a founder because they think that certainty is like what leads them to being a founder. And right? What i've learned is the head just being founder is just being friends with uncertainty.

That is. So we should probably trode ce you this point in what we're talking to you are kp at this is kp understood on twitter? Like you mention earlier, we all met in atlantic one thousand eighteen back for live in how to spell pandemic. Oh my god.

that was prepensive.

Oh my god.

that's yeah. A lifetime ago. He feels like. And you are running, I think the andy hackers and lana meet up.

And so you are very ambitious. You're very star yed. And I just tried to tweet on your profile this morning. You said that my life then verses now and two thousand eighteen said you were stuck in a corporate job.

You had no revenue, no exit, you published no pocket of a sage, you'd started zero side projects and you have a couple hundred followers on twitter. And then today you've got over forty two thousand followers on twitter. You build sixteen projects with no code tools and you're kind of an authority on no code.

You're rider, you're podcasts, also an authority on building in public. You've had two exists, your founders, he said, you're CEO and you've done hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue. So you've come a long way as a part of any who like in a way that was a good your hand in every part like I don't know if you the build in in public guy or the no code guy or the writing guy or the community guy, like all of these guys.

all of them and I want to say thank you and uh back to chatting points giving my identity small. I actually identify as none of them. I think i'm just the same guy on struck about entrepreneurship as the game, the meta game itself, right? And i'm trying my best to go back to the shoes of like the day I met you both and you guys don't even know and have to say this on air.

I'm recording right? Yeah oh my god. I was so, so starstruck. I was so and I was so happy to see your faces and I was like, first of all, courland like for anyone listening to this um the background story, which I have to worry from my vantage point is that I was winning these metus um with lana and I think we are like eight or nine in a series every month wasn't meet up and I finally negotiated my way to get a free venue at atlantic tech village and that became a one year contract for for us for the venue and I .

was as a calling I think right yeah .

they have calender. They have sales laugh, you know few others so we were doing this and then I think out of the I don't know where maybe an hacker slack or somewhere I mention that i'm doing the made up and you said, oh yeah, K, P, M gonna an gto. Maybe we can like a line or dates to have the meet and i'm there so i'm like, no, no, no, no, I will remove our calendar, uh, update that.

I will make IT so that the metal happens on the day you are here. And what I didn't know was that you were going to show up with your onter, which, like, you show up with channing, show up. M.

yeah. So we we go .

here that he was called our autor og.

Out, out.

We grew the part .

that I was like, what? And, you know, I think I was hot coming over of, like a lot of press and interviews of you guys and about the strike position, everything. And I was like, all this outcome sounded so awesome. But what really made an impact on me was that I could late to you guys, and I thought I was so cool, you know, and I was like, pen. I saw a little bit of me in you at the time and so I owe IT to you that you made me feel like, yeah, you know, I can maybe push myself a little bit, you know, put in the work, can just keep at this cause if these two guys have done IT and they're so relative and they're so humble, maybe I I can do this to and so a lot of myself, I always do influences like .

you that's wild at the say that's sick, that you are just starting out like I didn't know that until now. Yes.

so that happened at the tea, the tweet that you you're talking about IT that I was the same time zin the time, time period.

all the .

running shit. Yeah, yeah. Aby seems to have been locked down. He's like the end here.

IT was a sick meet up spot. There was A A round table of all these successful founders, successful in hackers. You were sitting there like, i'll like the presentation. You're like I first person like go next first ago and now looking back on and you're like, I was just going to started, right? I still my full time job.

Yeah, I was crazy because I was trying to make that happen. You know, with whatever I could. I was also on a VISA the time. Now I have a Green card shut out. Thank got immigration america.

Um pan IT was so .

many obstacles at the time they were like, mentally in my head were almost like, oh, you can be a founder like there are all these obstacles and all these limiting believes and so I was looking for any ray of hope. I yes, you know, when you guys showed up in atlanta was like with the to og with mom, I was, wow.

So this is why I thought of you. I was like a community organza because of like the andy hacker is meet ups that you're running. It's not easy to run to meet up and to recruit members and to get the space and provide for food to make sure it's entertaining and everyone learns it's like that's like a vote in itself.

I think I am montane ously were like this no code guy like you were just like we're getting really into no code. And then now, like in more recent years, i've think you do a lot of build in public stuff. And I guess I want to ask you, like, VISA your babies, which one is your favorite baby? Like which one wins out over all the rest?

Oh, that's a just tough. yeah.

Maybe which one has made you the most money .

as an any hacker of which one has made me the most money? I think community organizer is massive, undated. That skill um also first of all, I didn't even know that was a skill like good to me.

The excuse were like very clearly defined like sales as a skill or you like programing is a skill, right right? And so shout out due Riley who was also from a tanto U U S you know know him um people come to these hacer metus in a planter. He stop you one time and said, keep you you realized you a pretty good community builder like you should look into this thing and I was like, come on, man, like i'm just getting pizzas for us. I'm just like, you know and he is like learning this, like this kind of human rider thing I felt that hold my life, but I never really realized its the skill it's valuable to others until I started doing the hackers meet ups and become intentionally about tech and realized tech is one of those industries where, you know, there's a lot of introverts and there's a lot of like influential people who don't, by choice, come out and hang out and do a lot of our working, like the sale .

c greece y our working.

I going to ask you to vert and ambition, but I used to grow up as an introvert.

I can let I grew up. Yeah, i'm an introvert.

And then, like, i've got yeah me out.

If I do.

you y'll kill me. But I can relate to that so I can understand how vento trowed things I understand. Like this bullshit, like sale c like shaking hands and like trading business cards, bullshit that used up and around a planter, and not like there has to be a Better way to do community.

And my sort of canvas for cindi hackers didn't have any consistent streak of atlantic and me up, so was like, okay, clearly there is an opening here. I didion and the bar is actually my tired to convince an impress developers as supposed to maybe an hour join tech. The developers are so prudent and they .

are so like they're like piki as well.

I'll put on my developer hat for a second because you will kind of answer a question i'm curious about, which is developers often or like they see things very functionally and like what's the point?

What's the purpose and exactly?

And like that's the thing that a sort of has people have tension with when they don't want to just go and glad hand to go network for reasons whether to like what's the point of IT? Um so when you first started trying to build build the community and get these meet ups going, like did you have a value proposition? Were you like here's we're going to get out of IT or where you just like, hey, let's all just like me up.

yeah. IT was no your project mer former. And I knew that I will get last out. I will get like kicked out of the made up space if I was doing of this talk, because I knew in the hackers, I knew the personal, I knew the kind of people there.

So I said, okay, what's the real utility? You know, what would make someone get in the car, drive up to this day, uh, and then really spend lower? And my answer to that was, number one was actual accountability and vulnerable which is missing because a lot of a lot of developers um like you know they get roasted when they put something on hacker news.

They like should people come at you right? And I was like, is that a more vulnerable but candid way to share feedback? That wasn't my number one, you know, think.

And I thought I couldn't delle this myself where I would look at someone's no landing page and then asked me, in sales, copy you feed back and to be like, this sucks, but this can be Better. Or this, look at the high dice example, whatever. Number one.

Number two was accountability in the sense of how do we build a very simple routine. So we would, I would publish three step prompts that were kind of like mastermind questions. It's like a stand up.

What are your ships last week, which is an informal question now because you are muscle this to, uh, product, right? What are your ships last week? Yeah I think it's pretty uh, strong prompt if if one of the hackers meet every friday for eighteen months, which we did, and just ask each other, what are you ship last week? I think all of them, we're gonna bangers and ballers .

going to do Y, C, N. And shelf. That's what you do. And why comedy, you go in a room for of other smart people and they ask, what did you do last week? And you want to feel dumps like the hope you can.

yeah, you can. Yeah, that does n't work.

And I had you up with that.

Like tomorrow. Like, what did you ship yesterday? What the hell did you ship yesterday?

Well, we had the podcast. I like, well, that was no, I was at four pm. What did do you do before you want to bed?

So we had that as sort of the main anchor I didn't call the matter IT was just a prompt. And that I would say the third part was show, don't tell. So if you build something, you know, get on the stage show. That's what I was trying to rob people to. The many were there. I was trying to get as many people who are building cool shit to show you because I knew that they would feel the way that I felt about showing IT to you, right? And so they are all like, after you left, you guys left, they were like, here, this is the best meat we had, you know, because it's one thing to say, yeah you we had like, you know any hackers founder here but is something else to say he actually saw the sheet that I was building, you know and he he liked IT or he he resonated with that he said .

it's fast sitting to me that um anyway I get to go back to your sort of packet er news comment like IT can be screed to put your work out on the internet. Then there is a share. People in person when I was Younger would have thought that was the exact episode.

Nobody can see your face. You're onyx ous if you want to be like, no, like this is just rana user names like let me just put my stuff out but in person it's like on a stage you like that seems scary. But realities is almost always the exact opposite because small room, ten, twenty people you see the and present, there's lot of empathy.

There's a lot of connection. Hacker news ser, twitter, it's cut through, right? People don't know you. They don't care about you.

If you do anything slightly wrong, there is going to cut you apart and then you know link to their own product. That's a competitor view or something. It's a doggy dog world online.

IT was also like that. The fact that you're in person when people are reviewing like they feel more pressure to, like number one, give at the time of day, really think about what you're trying to do is set a as opposed to pending light off the cuff responses like there is a very famous I don't know it's famous, but Peter levels posted on hacker news and said like, hey know only me, know what product was launching, but you like kind of posted about IT and I was like, know I make a lot of money, here's my my this or that and there was a negative comment that was just like, oh great, another guy who like talk to talk but doesn't walk to walk.

He's famous for talking about how you can become famous and in Peter literally just commented in response, that person is like, well, actually i've done like these five products, right? Like, I really do walk the walk at at a and the person was like, the only time ever where someone on hakon news has apologized he was like, oh, I didn't really read anything um now that I look and see yourself self is pretty sick. I am sorry, right? And it's like that would never have to happen if you know someone sitting in a room with you right?

The the most classic and his comment is the one on drop boxes lunch yeah two thousand and seven where they launched job box in the first company was like I A few calls with this at number one, IT doesn't seem very viral or income generating. Number two, I could do this myself as one of a weekend. Yeah but at a week, I get into a weekend and then I turned out like drop box, made billions of dollars and was like one of the most viral apple time. But the hackney roles don't care.

Yes, it's almost like if you don't if you don't get rosted, it's almost like that when you .

should worry on ah you even a real founder if you don't get rose. So I think roles and as I mean that you're super good at K P, you're an expert on building in public. This is something is nearing dear to my heart as an indicator.

And hack is all about transparently. It's all about not only talking about how much money you make from your projects, but also building them in public. But I don't even have a definition for build in public.

What does that mean to build in public? And why would anybody do that? I am curious. You're the guy.

Like how would you how would you describe to listening ers? why? That's the thing that matters.

I felt there's as many definitions of this as there are the hacker. So i'll just kind of say that, you know make what you want to make out of IT. But IT, here's my set of reflection on IT.

I think it's it's really the philosophy that I think is more important, you know the philosophy of transparency and philosophy of openness and putting yourself out there. So it's not just transparency for the transparency sake, there has to be some skin the game. There has to be some level of vulnerability when you're killing in public, others SE.

It's just it's too fake like everybody on instagram is not billing in public. They're just social. They're just like have a lot of social media post. The way I think about IT is it's a combination of you know sharing your journey as IT on false and sharing not just the highs, you know the real instagram ally, just the you know top one percent situations, but things that really affect you, things that really were top of mind for you, and documenting this journey, putting things out there and, you know, go creating with a group of audience who care.

Now, how do you get people to care? Is like the same question that I had when how do I get people to come show up to the the hackers speed up is by giving value, right? Doing the things that they would feel compelled to come attend.

So the same thing when people say, oh, I posted about the fact that I had a banana for a and nobody cared and nobody liked by public public to unlike nobody gives a ship like the point is, what's in IT that's valuable to somebody else? If Peter levels example, like he constantly tweet about sort of the new things is doing the A I, the photo A I and a few other products, it's super compelling for someone developer who is like, how is this guy doing this in A P H P file, right? How like what are some, uh, new black is using? What are some new, you know, he thinks he's touching on. So I think there has to be element of utility, not just content for the sake of content. So that's how I would define IT.

What do you think is the difference between like building in public and just being transparent because I have found at both. So yes.

so I can use them. I feel like there there's a lot of overlap. Uh, but I feel like transparency can often times just mean numbers with no narrative. And like for example, if I just posted a bunch of my screen shots of retention charge or M R R, whatever that transparency, extreme transparency, if I post like customer names and like, you know whether joining from what locations, all of that .

stuff playing .

to ask passwords yeah like all these I think but I feel like being in public is kind of like as a founder, you know, using these numbers and screen shots or whatever pieces of the story and putting that out there and almost seeking connection and turn to like build with others in away, I think the build part is important. And so I think that's a difference. You know, in my view, I think there is so many social media counts I see like on instagram or h tiktok whatever and they'd like talking about oh here's the story of how mcDonald um whoever the guy created mcDonald and like there's .

all this like his first .

name is Ronald runs ry i'm going to lost me on this. I deserve you know this incident accounts that they're like some animals is like there's like yeah seven thousand tweet uh a day and they are like an onion and they're talking about architectures and on the world, I don't think they're being in public. You know they're like, right, posting a lot.

but that doesn't mean there in public. I notes building public a couple years ago, and I think you know more about this. And then I probably never did anything with IT, but I still have my notes.

I think you already matured build in public, though I think that the the way you're building the dca, not on this part. I remember when you do the new redesign of the website and you wanted to .

like up suggestions and like feedback on like .

how you yes actly. So you were asking feedback. Everyone remembers this. I don't know of you or one of you. You were asking feedback on the hacker profiles like how you want to .

beds to be yeah, I think this is kind of where I fall down the building public because my natural tendency is to just like build everything in secret. I don't even like launching stuff. Kp, like my like the way I launched most stuff as I built IT. And then I silly released IT and I don't tell anybody. And then six months later, if it's like going okay, then I put IT on part time or something like look at this new thing that's not even knew anymore because I just don't want to put IT out there.

I I call this the law latter. I haven't published post on this, but I want to like I ve been made on to tweet on this but I feel like you know billing in public if IT feels like um to daunting or just like naughty personality, then I have this launched later thing where i'm saying like okay, launched IT to four of your best tees like launch to you know four best friends in a group chat, then go from there and launch you to um your telegraph channel or if you have a you know slack channel then launched to a bigger group and then of course launch to product right at every turn. Make sure that you're seeking feedback and just seeing like what resonates and then iterating based on the feedback.

we are kind of an unfair position that's awesome. Where we have our own community that we can build in public to very similar you having like your in land to meet up or like this is a safe place, poster stuff and they people already like you before you put him on twitter or happening as a editor product country somewhere we like people don't know you yeah you but I think when I look like the world, like champions of building in public, like Peter level is obvious ly one tony then is really good. There is really good.

Like there's just a lot of people who are great. Who who inspires you? Who do you think is like doing IT the best? And what do you think makes them so good? Because when I see someone is really get a building in public like they're not just doing that sits in gigolo, not just doing that to feel good and the authentic also like crashing in with their products and making millions of dollars because they have such a huge engaged audience .

that they can launch to. Yeah I mean, danny postman h comes to mind. He's crashing IT along with a Peter levels.

Peter levels, I feel like, is one of my favorite examples because he's just the guy sort lentz, you know and I want to be like him, like just made so much money and he won't quit. Man, come on. And he doesn't care about threads. His feet is not manage your people like have taken this too far and then they've gotten into the third boy category and and there's like manually and like glad care is going on in people's tweet day, somebody I reacted to, I was shaking one of my friends and it's like, hey, have you seen this same thing and he was like, nara, I don't retweet anybody stuff anymore as like, why and he goes, I just want to keep IT clean. I like what?

I don't want feed .

are you gardener? Like what's going on? This is you're like, are you made in nail salon? Is are these your one nails?

And what's this? I think i've literally heard of people referring to their fees as like a garden.

Here's my thing, as the guy went from four hundred fourteen followers to forty two thousand, my comment is, if I don't get to tweet whatever the F I want to tweet and whatever the form and I wanted tweet, what was the point of building an audience? The same thing with some of these people who somebody is indy hack your friends that I have like, you know crushing IT over seven seven figure um you know businesses they are and I call them and I like, no right I don't take calls. I I just you know and you can make calendar and if they are so busy yeah and my thing is this like if you're working wall state hours as a founder, you're doing a round man.

Like you know the point of being a founder is your trading certainty and piece of mind and like just paycheck and w to you know mortgage peace to this autonomy to work from anywhere yeah yeah to take off the day if you want to and pick up a phone call from court and if if he calls you like god that I be Riley and he's in brazil, he's like A K, B, let me know what's going on. That's what we want. There has to be some upside to bring the you not taken on this uh, treacherous path but anyway, back to yeah I think Peter levels is is so hungry and I love that he just doesn't care you know he even like the new one to the photo AI and some of the new ones he's winning IT truly shows you that it's the same loop that everyone has to go through.

There's no shortcuts to product validation. You may have some audience, but you still have to take the brunt of someone's harsh feedback. But people still lose him on his feet. I M almost access created his own little .

happy bubble in his own right .

ever goes away. So I love that. I think IT keeps keeps us .

cause I don't. He's also grown as following a time and and I think one of the things that like I see from looking like like Peter I much I was still end of the top of his his twitter but have released seventy projects yeah and like you, only four of them make any money.

And the good thing about building in public because nobody remember, is the ones that failed, right? Remember you running a look? I have no a how much money is book made? Never talks about anymore.

No one cares. He was making look a slack clone. No one even remembers that he was twining about like he was going be like the best thing ever.

And now she's gone. And everybody only remembers his hits. I was also looking at tony Dennis the same thing. He's like building these eye chat process and like he's pad a few of them that just didn't go anywhere. He's got like eighty thousand followers.

So it's not like having a month of followers means everything is an instant hit any more than this, anybody else. But like his second or third try, he would. He made vertical typing line, I think, right? Face, yeah.

The news interface for ChatGPT. And that one just making money hand over fist. And IT looks like everything like somebody touches this turns to the gold when you see them posting in public about that success. But they literally could have been posting like a month ago about all of their failures.

And people just forget, yeah, I mean, I practical walk in custody of, like I said the same same thing like if we go back to twenty eighteen tweet there were some tweet where I would say the like the same message and then I would repost IT now and they're be like a bunch of replies and bunch of people like or like liking, sharing and a yeah comment to engagement and i'm like, what is the same content? Same here, the content like what the the difference I think is, you know, i've become a lot more relaxed this game.

I've built a lot of social capital of this game. And so you give a lot to a set of people for a long minuter of time. They're just bound to reply.

They're bound to, you know, replaced. And so often times in the beginning, we just think that it's the military cracks of the ideas we have, the insights we have. IT doesn't matter, just help people. They will thank you in the long run. And they they don't want to be be around you.

What you are doing is building a public but I also think that there's some value and dispute. Transparency, pure like this is a purple calm look at IT. We just have to know the use case that you're addressing there is like you wanted to sort of market you you're not necessarily trying to have like deep connections.

And I just speak from experience because I love seeing when people are really transparent about super weird extreme shit. Like I love purple cows. Like every single .

week I feel like I find a purple league couple.

Heard of brian john. He's the founder, braintree. So brian Johnson is like one of the one of the wild dest weird people ever. Number one, he's like multiple hundred million ology sold brain tree. He's right, found a bunch of things. And what he's done with that money is if you've heard of longevity, it's like there's a new science where you're trying to like live forever. Brian Johnson is the number one like ginny pig of all of the science that just coming on the pipe.

He was not on the news for a while.

for a month to go or something, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's on the news like a lot of people interviewed and you'll get little snipped.

But he himself will post the most transparent things, which which is actually where the the most interest resting office. So for example, he has on youtube, anyone can youtube IT. It's called my anti aging protocol, broke a world record and this thing has like three hundred thousand views. And it's literally just like two hour, like video, where he and his like main biologist, his main doctor, he said he spends two million dollars or something a year like rejuvenating every single cell in his body. He wakes up, he eats like exactly one thousand nine hundred and seventy seven calories per day, all vegan and he like, it's like, takes reading the headlines.

forty five year old biotech, I you may have reduce his biological age at least five years through rigorous medical program, the cost two million dollars a year and I just, i'm staring blank, leave the camera and like a perfect charring atter of, like every diop, an siei show that shows like so .

and valuable. Take my youtube view, right? Like, i'll the first person till watch that, right? And there are tons of other people. So do you like I? I don't like brian Johnson. Don't know brian Johnson and right, I don't feel like attached to one mor a familiar with them, but that's like pure currency.

I think IT, there's something to IT like. I feel like humans that are just initial curious about the process. I feel like a lot of the time when are living through the process of something and the journey of something.

It's sucks for you, but it's so much fun for others. So like like, you know what i'm trying to say like a big founder suck shit for you like god know, it's so many things are boring. You have to do the same seven things, not like debugging that say, for example, of when you like publish the code base, you going to stop.

I am so boring as hell for you and your peers, but for someone out there. This might be the brian Johnson moment, like they are looking for the sheet, like how do you like? What do you go to the? You go to the start, you go to the middle, where to start. And so there's there's a lot of fascination we have as humans. You know, the game play thing, the whole twitch game play as a different crazy.

I people to watch people play video game or fast, these randomly things that sort .

of where like you know like a desire to build stuff in public comes out like because I actually don't know what the heck i'm doing right now. Guys like i'm just trying to figure out like i'm no blue where my country is now .

are the bore face.

I was on deck for two years and yes, I okay. I saw the inside of a rock start. Then I joined day one and was like, okay, maybe it's my time to take the plunge to the plunger, december to one, two, one, two.

I have no freaking good one. And doing, everybody wants, like, see, you know, when you have an audience, I think a thing that, oh, you must be on smart people. So you must be smart, and you must have smart answers. And i'm like, you know, you like that .

it's just funny proposition.

right? So as you figure things sound, you IT just sucks because your ego is taking a daily beating. But I still force myself to still hit, publish and still to eat about what i'm thinking that day because I will know that somebody out there is my training, Allen. Somebody out there is like reading that shared and we like, you have man is awesome.

Like you know there for two two things I think number one, um do you enjoy being in the exploit tory face? Like do you like IT? I I like .

about alternative, which is being in w two and like being right to somebody's y yeah right because to the point.

we're disgusting. Early early. If you can find a way to explore and you like expLoring, and you can find a way to financially support yourself, continuing to explore, like, that's an awesome.

There's such A A pata sol about like what IT must look like to be a successful entrepreneurs, one company that's killing IT. Yeah, like my body. Greg was sitting the other day about how he made with a sick valley.

And he started an agency. And then someone he really looked up to, an inspector, was a greg, that's not ambitious, is not what we do here. You need to go for the gold.

And so you like, had all these other more ambitious projects that I did OK, but he wasn't happy. And now what is he doing? He's back to running an agency and then he just two, three more agencies.

And yeah, that's not like what we stay typically hold on a pedestal, but that's what makes him really happy. Yeah and he gets to get paid money for doing IT. And as I an exact lifestyle and he wants so like, if you like expLoring, you should explore.

I have I made a tweets recently about this, and I was talking to some folks in the following, and they were like in this pressure because they think that the other friends who went to harvard and other ones who went to stand for, they're all building this, you know, hyper growth start up there. Like, K, P, feeling on not living the life. I went harvard and like, here's something, take all the energy you have in ambition and put that into joy.

Because some of the greatest things the world has ever seen were built because purely, somebody pursued their joy, you know, an art programing, whatever, right? And so I don't know you know if you guys feel this way or not. Maybe i'm just it's so hard to be ambitious and humble.

You know like it's so affect hard because everybody wants so much love. Yeah like like everybody is the way you, either way, called in every every time I go to A T, V, they are like, p, what are you doing, man? Like chicken. But you crushing on a porter value doing so great.

What's your start of what's IT this kind of me? What is IT? And so i'm like i'm doing a you know fellowship, but they're like what so but that's what i'm trying to say like be like okay and secure with whatever part of the life you are.

And also I note a lot of people, i'm trying, to your point, like a lot of people wait until they get to the pretty parts of the career to start sharing in public, you know, and I think that's a disservice to the world because you're making IT seem like cotton wop one day. And he started to hackers like that, right? Or training or right, right? You know.

So we all go through the process and the process is humbling, including two bd levels are we call whoever second time, three time, four time founder the process socks as you're going through IT. But you do have you have to find the process that sucks less for you or feels like you know somehow weirdly fun for you, but make IT transparent that people see this, that it's not a pretty amb a slide deck. You know it's so emergent and changes every day and you have to react to IT.

I know on the um on the topic of of not necessarily gardening and glooming your twitter romping two series about IT there is some strategy right like you did something that to grow from four hundred twitter followers over forty thousand and I know a lot of people who tweet a lot and they tried to put the heart into IT and they don't get there.

Um what is your advice for somebody especially like an any acr who's like ockham mad here? Maybe there is a similar situation to you. They don't have one huge killer start up that trying. Lots of different things are expLoring. How can they, I guess, do a Better job building in public and build some sort of alliance for themselves?

Just use the Donald trump three on the toilet tweet .

strategy work for him.

That s what I would recommend on next.

I mean, the a lot of these strategy are so obvious, which are spend a lot of lot of time studying other tweet that inspire you. The thing is, people think that you you always have to write, like the four read boys are winning today, right? My thing is, you have to study and learn the farmer s, you have to study and learn the presentation of a certain idea, but you could choose who you want to learn from.

So in my early days, I remember I would like look at like a rine hover tweet. I would look at, you know, of the right tweet, I some of the guys that i'd really liked and admired, you know, a AMandas tweet, and see, like, okay, how are they framing the the opening line? How are they framing this stuff? And um I still do IT now big party of some lazy and my god, don't want to start from scratch.

I like look at what they're doing like, okay, this format seems to be working. So this what then the tweet that you read out earlier in the beginning um court and the me then me now is a very popular farming, you know that right like this course. And so I took the farm at but the the differences you still get to be you in the so the stage is twitter and you get to be who where you want to be on the states.

So if you see most of my tweet, ninety nine percent, the tweet are stuff that I would say to someone in real life. It's my personality and is authentic. So I know.

So I think that that's a big hack, is that I used to sound like somebody else in the beginning and I shifted that over to being very me i'm very reflective as a person journal every day. So my journal brings out five, two years a day easily in the morning. Um number two is the big tip that I had was I actually in twenty twenty I was at two thousand followers or something.

I genuinely saw the power of being prolific where I think I was holding back, trying to like you know trying to like only put out the smart tweet or the good sounding ones. And then twenty twenty july something happened and I think all weekend I had like one hundred new followers, which I was like, oh my god, this is crazy. And and from then on I just thought i'm just gonna be prolific at this, like every day, consistent and not holding back, having fun. I said, as a lots of .

people like the international kind of an open book test, you can like you allowed to you're like to go to look at someone else's succeeding and then like reverse engineer, what's working for you're going to get pig on twitter. You don't just have to just figure IT out of my squats.

Go finds someone else who's got a twitter scrawled out her twitter time line which if it's not too well manicured and garden, you're like you find some good stuff, good examples. I tweet, you said that you it's a format, right? You say a year and then a Colin and then type you did that year, then you say like this year and then the Colin john jack, we would have A A good play on this tweet today. Two that I saw, he said twenty eighteen, quit job, take a risk trade to build the tech business, twenty and twenty two built tech business and is something sustainable. Twenty twenty three AI makes all tech ork obsolete.

There are yeah right but it's like .

it's literally such a common format .

that people compared to IT yeah there's something mean formatter right. Um so I think your format s are so important in in when he comes to and twitter also. Um my my other strategy or my other tip is um you know follow the right kind of people, don't follow a lot of people, um you know but everyone have zero followers that I think a lot to snow by, but like follow the right kind of people who are three, four steps ahead of you or ten steps ahead of you and you want to sort of learn from them what their thoughts are, what ideas are so that helps you with the creation.

I'm much aged and talking about like the technology side tone dimension A I and one of your other personalities right is is like the no code space and I don't know maybe soon to be the A I space yeah um .

all my local print of jumped the wagon and they're already there.

I stable at this point yeah I have a kind .

of an interesting relationship with no code. I mean, first off, I I know how to develop. I know how to to build up.

I really like coating and i'm fairly fast. So I feel like i'm not really the market for no code. I mean, I can build a website probably in whatever half an hour have an online.

But I also had this interesting experience with I was teaching my girlfriend how to code. Two years ago, he was looking for a job, and I was like, oh, I kind of have this opportunity where I can teach her the sort of traditional H M L C S S to oba script stuff. And then I can also like letter play around with, like bubble letter play around with some of these other no code tools.

And IT was interesting because on the one hand, I saw her get stuff out the door with no co tools and like a week. But then SHE was sort of frustrated. SHE kind of head a plato and slow SHE was charging along with the actual code and took like a month before he could do anything like he was completely fish out of water.

SHE was really frustrated. SHE cried a couple of times. I'm not going to tell her about this part test. I don't want to tell at me. But like but then once that like flame got Sparked, there was like this takeoff or SHE to have this linear progression that quickly kind of had plenty told with with no code. So I wonder if I had to think about that.

yeah. I mean, the thing that comes to mind with cold was a snow cold is like, you know I car furniture was this um building tables and like real carpentry right for a certain kind of personal and a certain kind of you know founder, especially maybe a on technical founder, domain expert, someone who's in climate attack and they just have this particular marketplace, they want to manifest but you know they're just like so impatient they wanted show prototype sure like how would look and stuff I think for that person you know no code is right.

Move right, get getting a dollar or bubble marketplace, uh, tempted quickly in or softer, you know quickly and then try to our table data and then just like show how would looks maybe when you know grow IT to a decent extent, you right you can connect ripe payments and stuff. so. Um I think to me like no has always been like a great way, like you know like as something I can furniture right like it's it's it's unite a carpenter just because you followed instructions and assemble day you know uh desk but true development and true building, true code, true programing, I think our lifelong skills, you know and it's a craft and you guys know that you know what makes a craft and so you can never confidently say I reach the horizon of code.

You know you're always learning and eye shows up and you have to relearn now. So you're always learning. And I think a lot of what code teaches you is to think systematically methodical and to interface with the computer basically, uh you know like understand how to write in tax.

And so I think that's a skill is valuable for life, but for a lot of people, because it's so daunting because it's A A big you know it's a bit slow to learn how to pick up as a skill is like also intellect. I think it's a little it's hard code, hard, hard yeah it's very hard as you know like intellectually um so vast majority the people may not may self select sells out of this game coming and I think that's the first opportunity as a human race. The other and algy comes to mind is, uh, I grow in india and I didn't see any um you know like female grandmas or ants, my ents driving a car, you know and one thing I noticed I moved to the U.

S. On a twenty one. I was like a lot of ground was the driving car.

Sounds like s how you know and I realized the biggest differences, the majority of the cars in the U. S. R. Automatic transmission, you know, which is being they ask to have a stick to to drive a stick when you are eighty five, know yeah and so that to me is no code in a way.

if no code is the automatic transmission, then I suppose A, I is the self driving car. Yeah.

that's pretty good.

I remember no code like being all the rage a couple years ago who don't have out. And they had been told, l, he started to make her pad. He was doing like a no code debate for asylum evia.

I think I did two hundred and three different no code episodes. And any hackers, people were like, kidding, sick IT. But also going to get enough of you.

And everyone wanted to talk about is going to replace people's jobs. And now seems like no one talks about that anymore. Like all those companies are no good tool company is are still out there.

Example, you're still doing well, but like everything everyday, just about ChatGPT GPT for di A I 就是 A I， A I, A I even no code, just like A I. And it's not just putting coats out of a job. We're threatening to what is like going to put artists and writers and interior designers and just about everyone else out of a job, at least like forced them to like change their jobs drastically.

So what do you thought you think AI is just like eating up all the other new code tools. I mean, it's like I saw video of a guy who drew a picture for website on the neck and and took a photo of IT and then put them in ChatGPT and a generated like all the h humanity S S for like that website. He literally had like a part.

I'll put a funny joke here and then put a button here. And then here's what a joke will be revealed. If you cook the button and the A, I just met IT, right? And it's like, is there any is there any Better?

No code tools than that, right? I mean, I think the A, I, it's kind of farming the super set over, you know, local tools and local tools. So it's interesting to see if the no go tools bw sort of a line with that super set use case that the is kind of creating, like, for example, quota is doing a quota.

A I you know, notion has done the notion A I right. So immediately ously that their doing is embedding A I features into their core skill sets. And I think that's one way we kind of like B A I friendly. But if you are if you're not already thinking about your AI strategy as a local tool and you're not unless this revolution, this is a huge sweeping evolution that's coming coming out.

And yeah, I mean, I I think they are the analogy around like self driving cars, people would probably still want some level of control in the you know product so that if I will develop website, you know I don't write code, but like A I did IT for me, like shows me the land page. Maybe I still a, you know, I surround with the little animation at the bottom or some level of C S S. controls.

Maybe there's still value to learn a little Better. No tools like we have, but I think code will be the last resort, unfortunately, so we will, which is which would sometimes worries me because thinking, intellectual deeply and critical thinking will be the last resort for humanity. Which great before writing, right?

Like people memorized everything, a bunch of things are just like taught through song because is easy to memorized songs and poetry and then suddenly, like everyone's litter IT. And like everybody has a memory of a gold fish because we just don't need to IT actually do IT and the same now. Or it's like if computer could just do everything from, why should I learn any deals and know I have a two .

year old at home and i'm always curious to see when he's like twenty five, twenty the look like, or when like, what is there to teach you, right?

Like everything is I like, you know, how I proms, how good AI proms.

I am going to take the opposite side of this though, because I understand this fear, you know, hey, listen, all of this work that we currently do requires us do a lot of intellectualized, a lot of thinking and a lot of effort for work on. Is onna get place by A I I mean, to court on point, people said the same thing when the printing press came out, right? People said the same thing when when, like, books were why they dirigo ted.

People said the same thing when computers are kind of coming into favor um and what always happens is it's almost like we have the same amount, the same like you know whatever seven hours of like real rigorous thinking that any individual person can do on a day and it's like, well, what are you spending that seven hours doing and I think over time, the ideal as technology advances is that we spend our intellectual hours doing lesson less minimal work. And it's like right now, I do a lot of code, but a lot of the code that I do is like setting myself up to do real work, right? I'm like spending time downloading a lot of packages, setting up the the project.

Where is like I really just want to spend my creativity of my judgment time taking about what I want to do and then and it's like making case changes and like, like how does that look at this format and how look at in that format? And if we had like no GPT five comes out, you know, like none of us are sitting here doing almost any of the Normal jobs that we're doing on the computer, just eight hours of like highly leverage creative and like expressive work that you can do. So i'm really optimistic. I got I don't think that there is a new like real fear that like know what is .

the creative work you're gone to do for any hackers right now. I'm making this profile thing so andy hackers can have really awesome profile pages because andy actors have Better things to do than build their own profile pages. And so we're going to give them a profile page builder where they can show off other any hackers work.

But even like six months from now, they can just go on A I thing and say, hey, here's my projects, build me an amazing profile page. Then suddenly, all of this work I ve done for the last month create profile page doors. Shit, IT doesn't make any difference rate.

But I think, you know, the beauty with just as humans is that we will fight out the way to find problems to solve. And I think that what those problems that we will solve is probably not apparent to us right now, but will be very apparent to us since whatever eight months and months of those situations happen, right, we will always have something like when I when like you said, the printing press, if everybody is literate, then like what's the user if you know, we could have argued the same thing like but every time we had a new, new technology revolution, people found new avenues and new areas to work on, right?

In fact, I am sitting here, you know, using my dumps to tweet ideas, and, you know, like the things i'm saying, like vulnerable and like, you know, putting yourself out there would spoke the heck out of my answers, right? They're be like, what the heck is that work? Like we like toiling our as of in these oil fields in here, like, you know, that work on.

That's my biggest concern as of right now. Like how do I get customers on the stripe notification, which is so easy? Like is if you think about IT, actually, that easy to get someone to buy something right now on the internet for you if you have some decent service?

Fifty years ago was impossible. Fifty years. And now I think we would have something like that, that would make IT easier.

And I got not even think that we need to think fifty years in advance the market. And Jason was describing web point out whenever was talking about three point o and that was kind of new and it's hard to understand. He's like, look, here's how you think about IT. There is like three different phases.

Web, one point o was this idea where you know, individual people had websites and like they were all that many websites and everyone was able to have like their space in the internet because you kind of had the code, learn how to code, and like, not that many people could do that. Then web two point, oh, comes along. Now you have these big platforms, facebook and twitter kind of allow you to have your own space on the internet.

But like you're kind of renting out the territory that is owned by facebook, consider so that an outside got to downs. What three point out in theory was going to be a place we're like all of these non technical people were suddenly going to be able to like have their own space that the kind of so far IT hasn't really turned out to be that way. But it's like to court on to your question, it's like, well, what kinds of things are, are people to.

Like, I bet if everyone felt that they were technically capable of, just like creating their own place in the internet, and like they could use their creativity to make IT, like have the bells and whistles that reflected there, like, you know, personalities and their legs and their tastes, a lot more people would get in to IT, but even no code in its current incarnation, ation is kind of intimidating. I I watch my girlfriend, like know her eyes cross, trying to figure that stuff out. Um so I mean that that's just one idea. Everybody wants to get along, everybody wants to get ahead. That's just human nature .

isn't IT in the wall someone who was saying like the more the more technology advanced, we become as a civilization the meaning of workshops from event from already minimal labor, like minimal work that you should talk about. The knowledge work, like all of us are doing knowledge work right now.

Many of us, I mean, there are still people who you know, but and now we will shift from knowledge work to create work alone, right? And even with creative work, to your point, like A, I can only do so much creativity because the definition, creative shift, I would no longer just be not to have a painting. IT has to have some peace of you that's like authentic. And I can copy that .

naval speaks about this, but cognitive neuroscientist talk about IT a lot as well. And a lot of computer scientists speak about IT. Like the big differences between what computers do well and like what human brains do well, large, that comes down to, like humans are really good at creativity in judged, judge and judgment. Here is like, you know, almost like improving sing, right? Like what is the computer?

Not A I is judge if A I just questions like even Better.

But the judgment of, I think what changing different is different. I think judgment is not like the size of judgment. It's like, what will what will K P S next project be? That judgment, like i'm deciding based on the factors of what I want to do. And humans have intuition. That's the thing like it's hard to fake or copy because humans do weird ship like the brain downs and thing or like that just impossible to get A I to predict what he might do next. You know right?

I'm slightly more i'm slightly more bullish on AI than both of you. I think that AI is and it's or like the like the useful large language models we're seeing are in their infancy and are already shocking. They can do in another year. Two from now, it's going to be insane what they can do.

But i'm also on the same pages to two of you, which is that that is that mean that student gloom IT just means that, like our job is founders is to figure how do we use these new tools because they're still gonna problems. They're still going to be creative things and chAllenges for people to do. They need to be solved.

They just might look very different. Yeah, we have now. And so as an anti hacker is very, very rare that this happens, that a new technology comes out that's so revolutionary that you actually should stop and think about how to implement IT.

When was the last curious, what was the last time you guys had to go through something like this?

And I even thought about that in our lifetime. Like mobile maybe, but like, besides that, like mobile.

you like the two thousand and seven iphone moment.

Yeah, exactly. The iphone moment. Like ocean can just make web BBS to talking about more. But even then, I took a long time before as I had due mobile first, and I still don't do mobile first lot of the time.

And it's right, the web itself is like a really good one, like a lot of a newspaper companies, for example, who did not adapt to the web like our toast, like they do not have, like are you look at the other times, makes hundreds among the dollar rooms subscribers like they adopted to the web. That was a new technology that just solved people's problems Better. I think that Normal advice, like don't focus on technology, don't have a solution insert of a problem. But when there's like a paradigm shift, you have to actually reexamine all those problems. But that can I make a radical Better solution?

The way that we've actually dealt with changing technology and the hackers is, look, crypto happened like, you know a lot of web three ideas came out. Um nf were a thing like we thought about nf we thought about like an indie hacker coin, right? Like we we've looked at all these different changes in technology and and we've seen them as like opportunity is like, hey, can we do anything with this?

The difference now is that it's not so much of a can. It's like IT like we need to figure out what's going on here. And like is the adaptation question right? It's not like an opportunity.

It's like a requirement.

Yeah a lot of IT this prediction like with crypto to stuff. I was like, oh, this is getting big. The world in the future might be this different world so maybe we should decypher stuff so that when that world arrives, like we are good and then we just like that, like adam of that word is gonna to arrive.

So we did zero things. Is script to where's that? A I, it's like, here's already here. There's already cool shit that you can do right now.

That's amazing when to be useful, right? You can have an A I like help people write a post any or edit their poster come out of business ideas like like you can do that months ago. And so it's not even a predictive thing now there is no question about whether there be useful anyway.

Kp, we have to for way too long. Um thanks the time for come on here talking about no code and building in public and being a founder and AI the arms and weird langevin ity stuff. Do you beat in any hacker for several years? You have, I guess, hit Y Y milestones, then felt that hey, little strange.

Hey, y milestone that you won dreamed about a lot of people listening, I think, want to be where you are. What would you say to them? You know, what did they learn from the fact that you got there? And I wasn't necessarily what you expected.

I say it's definitely way more possible now to be an in the hacker and design life that you want. So you don't have to you know be like I said IT earlier, like you don't have to be at the mercy of someone strategy shifting. You know that's one of the crazy things about being in the job, tito. A W 2 is that like we saw with metal layoff s right？ Meta announced dead layoff s like um I think I don't know six months ago this finally of strategies and then that about a change mind and strategy shifted again and then ten thousand people laid off and I think I can even imagine what IT feels like being in thousand because last six months must have already felt like hell.

Um so I mean, what I would say just figured out a way to carve out thirty minutes a day, forty minutes a day, you know hour week here and there, if you are at a full time job like what I did twenty eighteen and get out of the convey belt now build your own little uh venture like you know a little talks about small bets, like try a bunch of shit. We are on the hits business as the hackers nobody remembers your failures is all about hits. If you just have wanted to good hits, you're good, you know.

So give yourself the permission to try a lot, feel a lot. Nobody members the you know, the early phases of your careers. I don't worry about IT. And once you get to the point where your full I am founder like I was, maybe they think about getting business cards. But no, just remember, that is an infinite game.

yeah. Thank K, P. So much for coming on. You tell people are where they can go to find to you and your forty thousand followers on twitter. And I wherever else you might want to .

dig listeners, you can follow me on twitter at, this is cappy on the score, my websites. This is keep our com, but the the billion public stuff is all at building public dot X.

Y Z. And that's sure your podcast is. Well, yeah.

that's where the podcast is. The following is this that everything check out K.

P, S, part test is good.