#264 – Growing a 2-Person Business to $80k/Month with Eric Turner of Japan Dev
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Hi, what's up to what's gone on in? I am excited. It's got an attack on my phone, says my my new medi st. Pro is and delivery, so I should be here in a couple hours.

I think I would love to also be excited. My metal quest pro was supposed to a short today, but for whatever reason, my car got declined, like the purchase got declined and also got decline right when I was landing an arizona for a four day bachelor party for my friend. perfect. So not only do I not get my quest pro, but I also was like on vacation on this group trip.

This was like last thursday, right? The the same thing happened, not the bad party, but I ve got to a message for my bank that was OK. We're got a sketchy charge from some company called meta for fifteen hundred dollars like we just want to have declined that for you.

But like that's a mistake. Let us know. And I think going on is like no one is like this.

Critical companies aren't used to people spending thousands of dollars on facebook like the typical stories of someone spent thousands of dogs on facebook, they got scammed. A V R headset. That's like the place .

where people go to scare people. Exactly.

but I don't even know it's in this. Had that man like I was looking the reviews out because everybody y's getting there deliver today, who ordered this thing and like I literally don't know what the features are. I don't know what makes you Better than the previous headset that I already have. I just know that it's like a new gadget. It's any toy I like VR, so I just spot .

so I I do VR all the time. I do um I have the medals st too and I play a lot of pingpong and I bought the quest pro. Me, you sagest ted.

Like, go, hey, this is out. And I was like, whatever I just bought IT and I had no excitement about IT. Something like I was, I thought, was only going to be pingpong.

But then I realized there's one of these meeting room apps, not the one that we do, but it's one that like allows you to have multiple different screens. And I went into IT with the quest two and I thought was really cool. But the problem is if you have like two or three screens, it's like the like the computing power of the quest two isn't that strong.

So it's like really grainy. It's really like lagi. You can really navigate the screens very much. So I assume that the quest pro really lets you engage with a bunch of different screens, lets you do things yeah, got a higher it's .

got a higher resolution, but it's still not quick there yet. So you're got like the resolution on the goggles, which is like, okay, here's how higher resolution is we n VR. But then if in the VR world you're trying to look at a computer screen in VR, like that resolution can be any higher than the resolution of your actual VR headset.

And so it's like ultimately, if you really want to like mimic having a bunch of different computer screens in VR, you need to have a VR heads at that crazy resolution so that I can have a slightly lower resolutions and VR on your screens there that actually looks good like that. I think pride five, ten years away before you have screens that that could, I think way more interesting than that is your take tennis and VR because everything a week I look at you in a root group and you have like the highest strain, basically, you burn the most calories every day because replying table tennis, V R. And the only thing I do and V R really, besides the meeting rooms, is also exercise. Do you like the super nura APP, which is kind of like beat saber or ddr um to a beat popular songs, but like your table tennis insane he played like I don't know how many hours tables are going to see .

play in VR every day, probably an hour on average, which is like sunday. It's thirty minutes sunday. It's like I just addicted.

It's like our and a half two hours, it's crazy that you can keep the heads and head for that long.

It's like anything else like you just if you do IT often, probably your brain like climates to IT in some way. But i'll tell you what i'm actually way more interested in. And this is only because I listen to a podcast about this new quest pro a couple of days ago is apparently it's got A R, it's got augmented reality as well.

And this podcast went far as to suggest that, like meta and a mark soccer, berg's long play is actually augmented reality. And VR is like a cool toy that people enjoy for a while until the like. You know, ideally they just want like glasses, right? But the hardware is in the area. So for the time being we have to have these big clunky um you know V R headsets but .

I think VR had that A R treatment. I think V R is way than A R because I mean, look look at the matrix for example, like the matrix, the whole premise of that movie is that virtual reality, right? It's like if you put something over your vision and it's good enough, like you're not there yet, neither or or fifty years away, thirty years away.

But you put something over your vision and it's good enough and you can create literally any experience imaginable like IT IT, obviates, the real world that you don't need. A R, A R can only ever do with the real world, does, plus a little bit. But V R can do all of that.

Like, you can literally create A V R APP that demonstrate the real world. And we simulate you having an AR goga. Like, literally VR could do anything. So I can't imagine like the super long term play buying anything other than VR. And I don't know like bark sacchi gs, like I don't what's going to that head, but I would assume that that's like why he's betting the whole company on VR and the A R like a little bit earlier. Hey, what's?

Hey, what's up? Not much R, S, A R debate.

Do you have any thoughts or do .

you own A V R heads set? I don't owit any of them. I have checked him out at various times.

I never quite felt like they were there yet, but I think that I agree with you the super long term. I feel like br is gonna timah be the one that kind of goes the distance. And there is more like a shorter .

term stop gap. Yeah, plug in the hole until we get crazy VR. But I don't i'm a nerd.

I think most people don't most people think all of the stuff is extremely unnerving and destroy an and I guess that's a benefit being in there. We don't I guess that's to introduce you, your air Turner software dev from the us. You looked in japan, so it's twenty thirteen and you eat and july. So just four, five months ago, japan def you start up is a hyper nash bootstrap business that has no employees, just my wife and me and it's earned sixty thousand, five hundred and ninety dollars so far this month.

Yes, that's right.

That's pretty amazing. You know why do you share your revenue numbers? Like has IT changed since july?

Yes, sure. We can go through and given an update on that actually. So I created that, I guess, back in August. So that was about july.

As numbers where I said, in july, we made about sixty two thousand dollars, I think was the ultimate number that we ride that. And then the next month, we actually did even Better. So we hit about eighty three thousand. And now we'll be september. Yeah, that was the magic number.

Every N Y happens. The number eighty three, I know, because eight, three thousand and and twelve was a million dollars a year.

Exactly that. We actually did break that as well. So that was obvious. Ly, big minute. No reason that I didn't go on twitter though and talk about that was that I knew that this trend was not actually gonna hold in the next in september, we actually hit like forty thousand.

My question, how stable exactly less the thing.

What is that? That makes the revenue flux ate month month for the a jb board.

Well, it's that I do uh, building a little bit differently than most in jab boards. So usually they will be on like a pay per job post model, right? You have a strike button, you cook at three hundred box or whatever proposed very, very forward.

But the way that we do IT is actually uh, that we don't charge the company until they make a successful higher to the platform. So it's free to join, free to actually post jobs in everything is no start up costs. But then we do take like a kind of bigger some leader in the event that they actually delivery e someone. So that is why the revenue is just like you.

So I probably described exactly how your sites works. You're going to do in the right now. So you you run japan dev, japan hyn dev dot com as we're talking and about it's basically a job board.

And you describe that as a curated site for tech jobs in japan for software developers and tech folks. And I think what smart about is that it's english friendly. So that's kind of you like you're niche english making developers who want a job in japan.

So basically i'm living in the us or canada or whatever. Then you know what I wanted mood to japan check IT out but I don't speak the language. I don't know much about the culture um how I am going to find a job over there.

I probably google something like google english speaking jobs in japan and yeah the boom number six japan def that com, I click that and there you are you know my brothers, I applied for a job before I even move there I can find a job in my space in japan. How does that describe as that? They accurately describe like the the bulk of what you do.

Japan a yes, that's perfect. I could have explained to Better myself. And we do here, I guess, to our people, both in japan and overseas. Um so we got the one thing I want to add to is that we do have some people already living here who want to get a Better job as well. But yeah mostly focused on they were speaking developer flash like kind of tech community.

That's much when you say we you don't mean like a bunch of employees. You don't mean like a dog and a team. You mean you and your wife, right?

exactly. So IT is a husband and wife project. Uh we built IT together now we are both um you know working full time on IT.

We quit our jobs. I was working as a software developers. He is actually a designer originally so we had a complimentary sill sets which was perfect and yeah so I write the code. He makes IT look good and that's were doing working for time on.

But japan is like, I I think such a faster country is very ethnically commodious, which just it's prety funny in amErica rule about diversity like I just watched the the first season of the game with the ron's prego house of the dragon. And it's funny because it's a fantasy world but like you have like this extremely diverse cast of characters like know there's just a family that's like you know owns the fleet.

They're like all black and blond hair. And then I watch the rings of power, the lord of the rings prequel series, and amazon at the same thing, and they will be black, els and asian and all the stuff. And we kind of think of that like the norm in america.

Even the tech industry is like we should be super diverse and tried to represent everybody. But did you go to japan? And in japan is like ninety eight point five percent.

Japanese, like there is no diversity. Japan, it's extremely homogenous. You're a White guy from america. Lic, where did you go up, I guess? And what what happened to you that made you decide, like, you want to go somewhere where you going to stand out that much and be so different and not speak the language presumably, and be so unique?

Yeah wow, you did some research sounds like and yeah, I am not sure that I knew that ninety eight point five percent figure when I first decided to move here to be asked but yeah, I mean, I grouped in the us. And I guess I just always loved, you know, to travel. I had parents that really, I impressed that value of travel on us.

And we go on family trips and self growing up. And I was had this idea that I really wanted to truly experience in another culture, rather than just kind of being born in one place in the us. And living in my whole life.

I just had that kind of idea. And that my mind, when I graduated from college, I knew that this was kind of my chance, you know, and I looked into moving abroad. And I guess just really by chance, I had been studying japanese, the language of bit, just because I was kind of interested.

And in high speed, I took spanish my freshman year, absolutely hated IT. And I first world of languages the next year, yeah, like I didn't take a language at all. IT has a soft more than my high school was added this japanese program for the first time.

And as a car check IT out IT just seemed like, so unique, is so different from our english. What I was used to, I outlet, and I kept taking the classes from high school, then up through college. And at that time I was like, you know, japan, you can go, 就是 take up your life and go live somewhere。 It's actually be a good candidate and it's safe.

So in a developed country, so no real concerns there. It's got this unique kind of culture, uh, which was something that I really was interested in having grab in U. S, which is kind of newish country, right? We don't have that like super long history.

And so I just put the ones to do IT pretty like a year. So learn another language, experience the culture, and I just kind of end up choose in japan. And the way that actually moved over was not as an engineer since I had looked.

I start a computer engineering in school, but I didn't have an actual experience yet. So I was like, you know, i'm actually just got take a break, I guess, and do a english teaching for a year. So that was the original plan.

Yes, I moved to japan in english. Teacher, just do one one year stint. Basically in to go back the us. Was original plan.

Did you visit first? Or did you just like bounds over there?

I did. Actually, I had a homestay for a month during high school, just says, you know, there's this program with those like classes that I was taking. So i've been there for a month and really enjoyed.

I like, I want to do for real and actually there kind of as an adult. So yeah, got a plane. I graduate from school and what for all supposed to be a one year thing, and now it's been almost ten years since then.

IT is such a cool country to is that I always say that japan is like it's my favorite country that i've never went to. I don't know that plans to when on my calendar. I know someday I will go and I know that i'll love IT because it's such a cool almost like alien country is so different and distinct the culture in and so many cool things come out of japan uh you live there. What's something that um you know someone who live there and so there were quite some time that I wouldn't know like a first time tourist or what's something that like you know any tourist might benefit from knowing that you appreciate about china?

Well, right now there are actually a lot, of course, coming since the borders finally opened up. They were closed, but like almost three years. And the japan's em right now is actually at a store low, which is terrible for me since I earn in.

But if you're earning dollars right now, it's amazing. So it's kind of perfect storm right now. If you do actually welcome, does this ban? And yeah, I mean, I have some kind of standard advice that I give the people who are going to come.

One would be makes you get a train car like a week or asmal don't mess around with tickets, don't tip. That is one that americans, some banks have trouble with. Like it's not a thing here.

Just don't do IT, you know, be quiet when you're on the trains. You know, IT is like this vehicle. People don't talk on trains. And always whatever I come like a for in a friend of whatever they will be like that that foreigner kind of on the train talk of super loves, I try to tell them up to that. And like I just around stuff like that, just like tips that I have, like if you're gonna long distance is usually Better to take the train, like I don't really recommend getting a car and try to drive around the whole country, that tends to get the slower and you don't really save much money anyway.

parking was a big pain. The irony here is I think I actually will make use of those tips because I would like to visit japan. And i'm shocked, shocked that cotler won't, because courtland is obsessive, is talk about how I think that I just don't have been the most beautiful language.

Japanese is the most beautiful language. Never hurt someone's like watching enemy and then turn off the subtitle and just listen, it's M. R. I love IT so good well.

and yeah, I was got six. I know you're anyway everything .

so I I love IT watch hundred. And the thing is I can watch animals without going to japan. So it's very easy to just not go .

corals go to visit in VR and tell me that VR experiences is Better than my my real experience. But um but anyway, eric, i'm curious about like you went there and you were teaching english, but I did a little bit of research and all like eventually you started looking for a software engineering job. What was your experience with that?

Yeah so I just stood the english teaching one year. I put too much time box myself on that said i'm going to do IT. But then at the end of that, i'm either you going have to go home or maybe been moved to toko and find a soft development job because then you may engineering degree that I had got killed myself to get was getting still I had not getting experience yet.

So I was like, you know, i'll go to shot. I'll go to tokyo. See, I can find something and see, I just had, I think, like two thousand dollars in my bank accounts like that.

And I got on a train. basically. I was in the small town before, in toyama profession.

I moved in tokyo and got this like the cheapest possible carbon I could find. He was like me and two other guys in this room. And that was like, five hundred, about two months.

So I got, I have at least a couple of months before I had literally run out of money, and I diesen went all in a litter, searching for jobs. And IT was a struggle, especially back then. I think the industries and grew and asked the little IT easier.

But I had no experience, no VISA. So a company was going have to spd to me, no money, like I said. So I have a couple months to make this happen.

And I got rejected probably by like one ninety ninety percent of the places that I have lied. So that was a struggle, was kind of depressing. But eventually I I finally found a small japanese stand up.

IT was about forty people, and they, you know, willing to basic, hired me as a ruby ted alber. So that was in my plan. I was trying to be like a mobile day.

At that time, I had put some my grandma android apps and stuff, but I apply here. We need back in person. Yeah, right? sure.

I will wait some booby code. And so I got my first a programme job that way. But yeah, he was a struggle as body wants most stressed periods. Yeah, my life.

I kind of matter. So are you fluent in japanese by by that point?

And are you fluent now? I am definitely in. Now at that point, I was already good enough to be doing, in a reason, stuff in japanese so that I was really focused more on, like the japanese, like small start up companies, they were all in japanese.

So even that the job first time that I got, I was working on the percent in japanese. We just kind what I wanted at that point, because I really want to to at work on the language. But more, I thought if I could get that programme experience while so learning the language have found be about to kill two once. So I can imagine.

like, I think, the experience of being scared, you know, like i'm going on out of money. I did the same thing. I moved to to go right out of college. I don't like no money and I like that. That doesn't matter.

I just build a successful start up because I was twenty thousand and eighty uh so like I do three months with five uh but I can't imagine having that experience but then having IT in a different county where i'm like new to the language and there's also like not that many other farmers and the countries i'm like pretty alone. Like what was your plan? You know, if you didn't have rejected by ninety nine person companies? Like what was just a plan if they started didn't hire you.

the plan was just to hopefully save after a return ticket home and then and then, yeah so I knew I wouldn't literally die. I went, you know, on the streets of toko because worth possibility quebec. And at least for like you know some here of time you with my parents.

But I was like coming down to the wire though, because I said had this VISA was not to run out. I had to get a new new via in the new company, everything. And I just remember I was trying to build these psychology.

And like at night I would really be like in medal, you breaking these hundred yen, like one dollar copies hours, just trying to build these crap like rails, apps and stuff. So I have something to show code, to show the companies having. I get having everything.

So I didn't know if if I was going to work on that and I was going to really like you. I D meet some people in tokyo, everything. I want to stay there, but I knew I had to find of jobs.

So I always came through the last second. Like, when I was already started about getting up, I had this, like two or three interviews left, and one of them kind of bend out. So IT was really just luck.

yeah. What what is japan's tech industry like? right? So court, I obviously were in sanfords isco when we were looking for jobs and twins. And it's like, you know there's the google in the facebook and and all all those things. But in twenty thirteen and twenty fourteen, what was was that like for you?

I think like in the U. S, developers are super respected. They have a lot of power, right, because the demand is so ridiculous high.

And japan is a little bit behind, I would say, on the software, especially a kind of internet tech side of things where there's not gonna this guarantee really where if you just choose a company and start working as like to know suffered development, that is going to a particularly good work environment. In fact, the average cases actually probably not very good. I would say um it's more like these older school japanese companies that don't really respect software as much.

Um they have the history of like got outsourcing um and really think more focused on hardware. Japan's really strong when I was hardware manufacturing yeah these things, but they haven't really embrace software nearly as much. So it's just a matter of d being a lot more careful and trying to find that kind of pocket of companies because there is like another of segment of the market where IT is really like international companies and the more modern japanese startups.

So if you just focus on that, you can actually have a prety good situation here. So that's what kind to do. And yeah, I was researching, kind of building out this list for myself.

I just this trail list of companies. And when I found a good honor, met someone I would meet up that, you know, was another foreigner, I said, this places good to work out. I would have to keep track of that for own my own jobs. search.

Yeah, there is a line on your website actually, where you say that you started japan dev in part to improve the image of japanese technology around the world. And I think I have the same image that you're describing that it's like a very conservative place that like you sit on one hand, like japan is highly technically to an society.

Their leaders and electronics and manufacturing entertain and animals who have said, but I can't even think of a single japanese text startings like I guess they have soft bank which is investing in mother like text sorts of the size that there's like there are no japanese started mobile ap s that I use the websites that I go to IT. It's just not um a leader in this space. Why do you think that is and you think that IT is the culture? Like why don't you think they respect software there? And how are you sort of the copy to change that?

A really good question. I think that back in like the seventies and eighties, japan had this period of like oraculous economic growth, right, where they had companies like tony and toyoy basically driving all the incredible out of them growth, where they basically rocket to the top of the GDP writings, the like the second biggest, the economy in the world. And that was thanks to a lot of this like manufacturing, uh, electronics, this hardware.

Um so I kind of think that is a remnant of that because, you know, you can quite point so well, like look at this amazing results had with these physical goods. We created all these process isn't things to make them more efficient and you build them faster and Better than everyone else. And IT was amazing for us and people.

I think I can remember that bubble era of like the eight and nineties, and I feel like that has remained very strong because these are still of the same main tech companies that people talk about today, like only in tosha these these type of companies. And there is just spent a lot more focus on that side of the market. unfortunate.

And then I would say really in the past a decade or so, finally, there has been a lot of growth on the h start outside. And you may not have heard of any of the kind of new a wave of start that have come out, but they are getting bigger and bigger, you know more more profitable like there's a comment called my Carry, for example. They're actually reasonably well now in the U.

S. As well. I worked for them for a few years and you know they had like a seven or eight billion dollars.

I think like IPO, they are unicorn. So I think it's like ten or so, maybe even like six, seven years ago, there literally none. So IT is growing. You know, I am hoping that will start to see more and more of those companies get bigger and bigger and have made like a google are like a facebook level company come out at some point. But that does not happen yet.

So you are working at mccoy. IT seemed like I was kind of a nail bitter situation where you know you really, really needed to get that job, and i'm sure IT was great to get the job. But then what is IT five or so years later now? And you know, you just posted in eighty three thousand dollars a month milestone with with your new company.

What happened? right? You, you, you said you are building some side projects to find that job. Did you know at that point time, you wanted to eventually, like, try to build your own thing?

How does your wife come into this too? Like, this is someone that you meant america. This is someone that you meet the states.

And like, what was this conversation? Like, really? Okay, we should started a tech start up and an extremely conservative tech industry where, like, you know, risk taking is an exactly rewarded in japan, looks upon very favorably about that part of the story tube.

First of all, I did work at my Carry. That was the last company that I worked at. I quit my japan full time. So there were a few job changes that happened between the company I mentioned that kind tiny japan's start and you each time I switched jobs, I would learn a little more about kind of tricks for finding the best jobs here um interviewing all I kind of stopping what's trying to get bigger kind of more globally minded companies each time so I took a few of those kind steps until I reached my Carry which was you have left to go and somewhere in there I didn't meet my wife. Actually we did not pretty soon and after I moved to tokyo and get that first tech job.

And yes, he was one of my kind of first friends here in toko, I guess, into a little bit more than that and ultimately got married. It's not if we had this plan to start a start up together or anything like that. I was more just I was getting more and more interested in that.

And you know, there was really more that he agreed to support my vision that I had for this job. Word that was the service that I wish had existed, you know, because I really struggled when I came right in the first tech and even subsequently. And I was like, you know, to be really cool.

We had a job, or those works are on the needs of people like me. We go and see, does this company sponsor visas? Are they, uh, do they have kind of international environment, things like that? And my wife kind of really shared my enthusiasm, that idea that was a great, great business idea and basically agreed to help out with me.

There's a lot of people, I think you are working jobs who want a transition to become an any hacker. I think it's a tough pack to follow. Like financially, you support yourself and socially and is not necessarily the most acceptable thing. It's a big risk. And I think a lot of who will just getting inspired sufficient that they want to do IT for you.

Like where was that inspiration coming? Crime as was IT, you just generally inspire to start to start and do your own thing? Or was IT specifically related to you just want to solve this problem to help people find jobs in japan?

I think IT was more than I was always kind of building side projects and never actually you promoted them or made any money for them anything. But I always had some kind of a side coding project that I was building. And I guess this in the back of my mind, I knew that one day I would like to try being an aftermarket ur.

And as I was going through my career here in japan, changing jobs every couple years. And because I learning more about the industry and that kind of thing, I because I kind of the year in on this this one idea, and there were kind of a few false starts before I ended up actually building IT for real. Like I think the first version of the site that I ever actually built was that twenty seventeen or so and know that was basically, just like I said, I had this trail litter that I was maintaining of good to companies that I thought it's a good places to work for people like me.

And I essentially took that and turn to indoor website, and there weren't even any jobs. Actually, the M, V, P, that everything built was just list the companies so that the initial version I did, the typical developer thing didn't show that. Anyone kind of just stop that, just want you to write the code, whatever you know.

And then stopped, dropped IT and then yeah actually didn't go back to IT until about two years later. I don't know why I think I was just kind of looking at my life at that point. I had actually switch from being and developer to a good engineering manager and just talking about my career, and like whether I want to to continue on that path or try something else, I realize that, yeah, I kind of want to do something else.

and. I, I can act that idea and build a career, rebuilt that site. And again, I was just like this job, you know, my job was like this glass door, kind of a review site at first, actually.

So that was a mistake. I did. I do t what I thought, other people, but really I was the only one I want to IT.

So as one thing that I would tell people who are interested in time to the business, yes, scratch your own age. That's great. Do try to make sure that other people have at each two because I don't know for whatever reason.

I was really into you know companies and learning about them. And I had to say list like fifty place like companies and other about that on the staff and other people don't do that. I realized the reason I was going to go, a lot people than that.

Then a lot of people would and built IT. And I actually showed up to some people like, and IT got some initial buzz, uh, ginning. And some people were like, but where's the applied? what? I want actual jobs like I don't want to like go taking through all this international alist companies. And so I pivoted .

to being a jab board. I love that you're in this sort of career space, hiring space, job word space because there's just a lot of money there and it's a lot of a lot of important decisions being made there that changed people's lives, that change nature of companies. And so like if you have something that doesn't quite work, like you have this idea that you dalibor, but I didn't quite work, it's easier to pivot.

IT is something that will work because you're in like a really good space, like one of the things I tell and the access the most is like look for a place, our space where people care a lot and where people spend a lot of money. I think every body hacker wants to build a product, or people care so much that they onna use their products and they going to tell their friends about IT. Every body hacker wants to build a business that people care about so much that they going to pay money for IT.

And the shortcut is just like where is money changing hands, right? In the jobs of career district? Obviously, a lot of money changing hand because it's companies are hiring people in paying their salaries, like it's hard to even imagine an area of the economy where there's like more money being spent.

And on the flip side, you have people like you who are like you know out there looking for jobs and like they're stressed about IT. It's emotional importance change where they live and how they live and so like they care on about that. And so I think it's such a great place to build a business because like even if you mess up, you know like you only like one or two steps away from like doing something as real value to people.

And that was one thing I thought about a lot was like kind of trying to think about the flow of money with in the industry and know how actually in japan, a little unique and its most of from recruiting firms, more so than job boards. And that's when the reasons that I decided to do the kind of unique, poor, higher model as well is to be a little IT closer to that.

But you know, you just look at the companies and a lot of that money is going to do these recruiting firms essentially. And when you look at how much they charge, it's kind of eye opening actually because usually it's a percentage of a persons starting salary and in japan, it's actually even higher. That would be like U S.

Places like that. It's like thirty to thirty five percent that and that couple with the fact that yeah so my idea also was to be german and focus on of the top of the market as well. So you can couple those two things that was like i'm only, you know really working with these good companies that pay a lot of money and they'd primed to be paying at thirty percent, thirty five percent old people's aries. So to me, that seems like a huge opportunity. Like even if I you know less than that, I can still charge a lot in a per higher and a good business that way.

So as far as pivots go, this is an interesting one, right? Because you you pivoted from basically like a company, like A A company discovery platform to this job board. And secretly what that means is that you pivoted towards a two sided marketplace, right, which is like notoriously difficult.

You have the the cold start problem, right, this chicken and egg problem. So even if you are Better addressing the actual demand and the opportunities here, now you've got this problem of like cold starting. So what was that like? Did you take a long time? Where did you figure out new secrets?

So you're always gna run into this. And one thing I tell people, if you do want to build a job word, then have a plan for the cold problem, right? Because the skeps, when you do where to get applicants, you need company is posting jobs. But to get companies posting dogs, you need applicants.

So as I mentioned earlier, I did have this initial version of the site where I was basically just a glass door site where people go on and see, okay, here's fifteen good companies are many companies said I was kind of backing and that got enough buzz. I think where when I started to reach to these companies, say, at least had seen the site once um so that was actually really nice. But I do think actually the main hack that I used was I was still working at the time.

I was a soft developer myself and I went to my own company and that is really powerful actually, because that was my target customer. And I already obviously had the network of people there who I knew. So I was able to just break into hr very easily and have kind of a Frank discussion with them, like what kind of features would you need and probably a little little easier like a sales pitching everything when you know the people.

So that was my first company. I actually was something my cover that I working for. Then they still the question about about couple, number two and number three.

And I do think that initial bump in tract that I had helped a because I think H R. People especially had already seen the site once a twice. They kind of knew the name.

So IT wasn't a completely kind of called introduction them when I was going to email them or whatever the second person actually found on redit, they mentioned that there were I can H R person at one of these couple. I was actually indeed ah which is a big presence here in japan. So I dand them on bread IT and was that we can interview with the electro people that way.

And IT was really nice to be doing the model i'm doing because i'm a developer, not a sales person. And he made the pitch so much easier because he was basically a no brainer. But I could walk in, be a, i'm gna post your jobs on this site um you're going to go to match traffic for me.

I'm gonna build out a company profile pages as well, all in english like native level, like i've worked to big companies here. I know what we want is target customers build this out for you for free, no up from cause whatsoever. I'm GTA like, make you look good, you know, right? And you going to pay me unless someone actually joins.

And even if that happens, it's still going be less than you can gain these recruiters, right? So that was only way I was really able to get them to agree was like to make the pitch such a no brainer, but that is really with reasons to say no. Um so that was big private and that's I got my second companies.

I just want to talk to them and I had this kind of warm water from someone and read IT. And once I have those two companies, I think the third one was a lot easier. And then from there I had like four or five, and there are pretty well known companies.

Then got a lot easier. Ultimately also got some testimonials which took her to the next level to the point like it's it's not even difficile now um I get most of my new comes in out. I don't even really go out like search out company that may be occasionally if if I hear about new company, I really cool. But now that that part that side is not a problem at all, the other side of the applicants, yeah, that was the problem.

right?

kind. So I had some companies now out at this point and some child actually on the platform. So I somewhere to go on the site, we have apply button, you could actually get value as a customer.

But that process of actually gathering more, more applicants the way longer. And that was an absolute, a real struggle for us. And actually, I think from the time when I got our first signed contract for the company and the first job posted to the time that we actually got the first payment was about twelve months.

So this day, three years? 2 months？ Yes, exactly.

And the fact that I have contracts meant that I was already IT was a business and I had to, uh, you know listen to the demands of these companies, right? Because they're in theory, they can try to pain if as long as they hired them on IT. And so the number of work was increasing.

And after the working as engineering manager, managing a team basically at one of these companies. So I would basically work a full day, wake up nine, nine meetings on, like our stuff, do my full day as a manager. And I would like, finished you like, okay, it's over.

I am my wife, got right, start work day. Number two, I japan did and I like, yeah, okay. And literally we did that for twelve years.

I love that there. There could be the twelve month lag, right? You have this marketplace. It's the cold start problem like a chicken, the eto get both parts.

But if you do the supply side first and you have this awesome pitch to them, that's like they can really say no to. They don't care how long that takes you. Like at some point, you're finding them customers and that gives you the time to can do one side and then move to the other side.

at least that in turn.

But yeah, and then I also love that you started with like sales. I think a lot of andy hackers have the opposite sort of mindset and intuition. I think, oh, i'm a soft engineer.

The thing i'm in the worst that in the world is calling anyone or message anyone doing sales if that's impossible. and. Certainly can't sell to like a really big come, but like what I need to do is find lots of individuals to sell to you and i'll be marketing IT.

Turns out like that is actually the hard part getting thousands of people to your website. Super duper heart takes years. A lot of people um demming a few companies send some old emails. Having a few phone calls almost anyone can do with really no experience. And it's kind of shocking. Like I don't want to say that it's easy, but like i've had experiences when I was selling ads for andy hackers, I would call companies with no sales experience and then like an out later, I would have made five thousand dollars because I will buy that on your podcast. And i've had friends, my friend land, who started key values.

It's kind of similar to your first idea what was going of a job board but based on, you know, more class to arvie, SHE did the same thing, same process as you called up a lot of companies the first few like, okay, I get what i'm meaning to lose and after he had five or ten is super easy because she's all these brand names and everyones like our competitors are doing IT like, sure, we'll do IT to. And so I think starting with that sales approaches, so much Better for andy hackers than than starting with trying to find thousands of users. But eventually, you have to do that at some point.

you have to find you the applicants, and that actually becomes a business. Until then, you I mean, people, you might think this is because you have so, so much code written or whatever is. But no, not does this into you have a customer.

But first, why I love that episode would lean from key values. That was actually one of the companies we definitely ked at when we were first kind deciding how we feel exciting everything. And I think I just do not wrong at times like I mentioned, that I have always kind of been building stuff on the side.

And in doing the usual mistake of the software of about everywhere I am building IT, showing IT to no one IT is die because, of course, I lose motivation, not only any money, no one's giving me feedback on IT. And then I did that five, five, six, seven times. And this time I I got, you know, I listen to things like the hackers, you know, and think.

I realized finally, like, okay, no order to actually do this, then we need to go on top of people. There was still incredible, scary. I said that a horrible at first.

Like, when I go back and look at the I called, linked in, linked in messages and stuff that I was sending, I print so absorbed long, there's no way anyone ever actually read these are so long talking all about the service, not talking about the customer at all. Been driven dislike. We're building this really cool thing.

Like here's wives like, so awesome. You and I know like that multiple cta turtle. I broke every, every possible sales rule, and it's imagine that anyone even responded.

I love that because you could break all those rules. And IT works like you did. You did IT all wrong and IT still worked, which is so encouraging to other people who just getting started, feel like your business matches are prety closely.

One of my favorite strategies were starting in business, which I thought about a couple times. Um it's a strategy that I used for andy hackers, which got acquired by stripe strategy that Peter levels used for no mad list. He's making millions dollars a year in revenue from that and it's spent off products, same stability that lentile use the in key values um which I think SHE makes like a around foreign grand a year with key values.

And it's just heard no employees. And I think if you go through this process, you have pretty good chance building a profitable business. So I want to like to share with you, you tell me what you think whether applies to you this kind of with the release process.

So the first step is you notice something in your life that's important to you and where you're doing a lot of research. So in my case, I want to start a boost shop company as important to me. I start doing a tone of research to to find other people who had done this so I learn as much I could um in your case, like you wanted a job.

Japan s you're doing all all this research looking all these other companies are relying getting really famous because it's just a lot to take in on computer levels. Case he was a disco no mad. He's has been a ton of research about places to go and live and be no mad.

And he wanted to know how safe IT was and how what the cost of living was and how fast internet. And that just a qua ton of different research all over the way. One step two is you have take all your research.

You want to make IT presentable and that means, like number one, others have to care about this research against to be you. But instead to involves you need to put IT on a website somewhere, you know, in a list or a grid format. I think the grid pretty for like pretty popular.

And I hackers and its early days, just a grid of interviews. No madness is a grid of cities. Japan dev is sort of a grid of just jobs. And what's important really isn't the grid that was important is that you know you're target audience and what they want so that your researcher, you put them online as format and in a way that gives IT to them.

And then you have step three, which I think is the hard part, which about talk about which is you got to distribute IT, it's got to be discoverable. So it's not a good enough. You just still like have this all on the web, but you need to somehow get IT out there in front of people who are doing the research that you were trying to do.

But now when they do that research, they will stumble across your thing, hopefully. And so with andy, hackers, like, I knew that, like, hey, everyone who wants to do this is looking on a hacker news. I'll post IT there, but no madness. Think Peter levels is in all these different like basically twitter threads, where is posting no madness and like these different articles are targeted digital, no mad. And so people who are doing research to find his website, and with you, like you mention S U, right?

If i'm trying to find a job in japan and no farther what I idea, like I do research for going to google and searching for IT just like I did earlier ah and like that's where you need to be if you want to find you. So I do want to diamond that. Like how do you execute the third third step of the process account? Ge, you get yourself found by google. Well.

first of I think that framework is totally on point. Like that's exactly what I did. And like you said, the third step was definitely hardest for me since that i'd never really died.

Marketing and unfortunate was also slowest because I was relying I also said the main distribution channel that we end up and was S O, especially google because he said that is pretty much where the trait comes from for this kind of use that I am broke down. So big part of that was just writing blog content, basically related topics to getting jobs. I mean, because the job was itself.

Those pages will target keywords like socially pipa thousand and japan or P P. thousand. Jan of I created a pages, separate pages, based to cover all.

Those are all the different days. And prime languages ism, that anything. And then the next step was just basically writing content for our blog, which answered questions that people like me would have.

So one of the most popular ones I had early on was the salary guy that I wrote. IT was like focused really on these, like more international companies, and know here you can actually earn as a soft developer based on the level that your you're senora not the thing. And another one, SHE said in a real guy that I had, like moving to japan as a software of welder.

So I was writing a lots of blog posts and also this the page structure matters a lot as well. Mention of kind of separate pages, like I said, rather than just like one big page, is gonna, uh, only hiring you, only really targeted market hearts. So thousand of some.

But I learned the level we've mentioned is another good example of this with nobility is like tens of thousands of pages and pressure because like each guilt teris is on page. And I read this article and I see so you got in the and yeah, there's a lot of other stuff like those on the google jobs you like google jobs network. There's this picture where it'll show the jobs in the search engine results.

So adding the markup to enable that game a pretty good boost actually in traffic. X is the main thing, so impressive. But the problem is that IT is slow compounds, and you change something and you see the fruits of that, literally three, like six months later.

So that is why I had this really long, long time. And during that time, I was still improving the U. S.

And everything as well to just make IT super easy to fine the the apply button and everything, I guess, was the email list. I didn't know this at first. We know when I first was said.

But for job boards, I would say it's a big thing right now and you really need to be collecting emails from the start. And you know, I got Better, Better and sending those emails and really how to write a compelling email to those people when I would post new jobs. So I was doing that myself.

Come on that copywriting as well. And come the two biggest distribution channels that we had, of course, posted on social media as well, especially twitter and link down now say, like then actually work quite well that after a year basically start to pay off. And then there things got a lot easier. What was that journey like emotionally?

Because I think a lot of the hackers are in the state where they're trying to make their thing work. They build the website, build the product. Trying to customers is not working, and they get the skirts and quit.

Most people will quit after a month. Two of writing articles. It's not generating lot of traffic. Most people will definite quit after like four months or six months or eight months or eleven months, or you made IT like a year. What what keep you going and how do you keep going in that situation?

One thing that actually helped was copied because I didn't have to commute the office anymore and I kind of just needed something to do to be asked where I mean, in japan, like things were pretty locked down, but like kind of that year that I was strugling. so. IT was kind of nice to have IT.

That doesn't mean wasn't a struggle um because there was something exasperating to see like the the numbers go up and more more people apply. You know I had more more kind of high quality jobs and yet we still just weren't earning any actual money. And if they weren't for you know being at home and not going out anyway um kind of things that we are this are quitting.

But you really able to keep going just long enough to finally get a first, first active payment from company. And then there we can have that extra motivation for OK. IT works. We've ve got to scale and obviously got to keep doing what we're doing. You know, we have worked to do yet, but this is viable.

There is a success story of job words with the vast jordy. People that know you start job boards failed. So what do you think you know that they don't know? You know, what are people who are starting to boards doing being wrong?

So there are so many jobs now, and i've actually heard people say that like they can played out this point. They don't recommend creating job boards. And I actually think there's still out of potential personally, but I do think you definitely need to nish down.

I don't think you should create another like remote job board at this point. I would recommend doing that. So definite chose the niche. And from there, I do feel like there is still this playbook that has worked to the well for me where you do have the cold start problem. As you mentioned, they are having a way to get past that. And you know a way that a lot of people do IT is to just craw jobs so that they already have the supply and then that affects users. And if that is like focus is accurate, I still think was a ton of value.

And just taking me like see of jobs that exists and think, okay, I went through and I did the research for you and I found these good ones, are these ones that fulfill this criteria so that you don't have to basically Q R that you do that combine with like some crawling to just get the jobs because Normally companies don't miss in mind when you do that. They have these applicant tracking systems that have, in fact, that you can kind to call a dit from pretty easily. That's the most of people doing these days.

Um so as long to do that and then really talks on S O, make IT really optimized like that separate pages, all the different keywords and stuff post on google jobs because all these things that I did, I think that that will still work. And then yeah just really need to go out on the marketing inside of things, make sure you're sharing IT. Yeah, I actually still very bullsh on job boards and general. In fact, I just started a new jab board because I was kind of getting a little bit lonely over here in japan, just adding this kind of japan's specific product. And I wanted to try something more of the international market.

So I actually being in this new job board now the working progress, but it's called rocket chips that I so it's basically a jab board for midst ge companies in this kind of growth period between small start and big, establish these that are as they have the best risk reward because they have kind of best of the words I want to break out list that you've see that yeah break out list or like on other part, test my brother and this is a serious st. I don't you heard that? No, no, had that board for that.

And my idea now is basically to take my playback to panda to apply all that stuff and yeah goes for like U. S. Flash international market.

I love that. The idea of series list of another, explore the way to make money and life. Essentially it's like you if you you go online, you google like, what what jobs should I get? You're gna get like you should be an engineer.

You should be a doctor. What a about a lawyer or a plummer. You think like, I like the most generic thing, but if you ask ground on twitter, you ask people want to know.

You ask like people who are an industry. You'll tell you about these like unique path. I can make a lot of money like, or you can be an ending actor, or you could work part time jobs, save me money and invest in real estate.

Like, or you could like go to the tech industry and look for these rocket ship companies that are under value at the time. And if you pick well, get a lot of stock and they become a million years just by working job right, which is what, sir, same party s wife. So that such a cool job board idea.

I am curious for the business model. So you mentioned earlier, your business model is that you essentially only charge companies when they actually make a placement similar to a recruit um but you're not a recruiter. So you're not like handholding the applicants to the process.

no. So the product is a job board and it's monodist kind of work a recruiting for me.

How do you ensure companies pay? Because I imagine that you're like, okay, people to come on the website and to know applicants like not making any money, like IT, maybe the company is are very higher and people just not telling you because this really doesn't seem be a way to enforce that. And yet, like here you are, clearly they are talking you and paying you. How does does that work?

That is very good question. And as time went on, I basically created more and more ways to prevent that and keep companies artists. So the first way that I do IT is in the contract to I make the sign that is a lately increases the movie that they go up paying that that's come the first line tends.

The next thing is that um I keep track of all the applicants. So we are two ways of playing. You need to go through email, in which case I had your resume email, all that stuff. So I know exactly you are. Or they can link directly to their like A S H, the african tracking system that they have.

And if I use that way, then I basically show a model and i've force everyone, it's like a fairly strict model where they are to put him like some data like email name and a link like users. I can get up like a, so that is the of next way I kind of have that thing at the great list. So then I can look at that and say, OK, this company has had all these applicants and they have heard anyone.

Yes, that's kind of weird, like a new alisa. And I do one other thing that I do, which is I have this actually this gift card now that I give away side this form, actually, you know, this one is like, joined the company through the found a job. So on there you can click and you can basic tell me about the job as you.

And then I spent, you are like a three thousand and amazon gift card. So just as another incentive and also have to are a compound, okay, I ask member dissent. So yeah, if they have all that data, I can also just go back to, like I said, if a company is kind of a little suspicious and I can kind of different crawling or at least look at people linked dance, talk to people I kind of as well.

In practice, I actually think that the community is so small that companies don't really want to burn bridges. And since, like I said, they are used to paying high for and recruiters, it's not that expensive to begin with like they already getting a pretty decent deal. So I don't think it's really worth burning that relationship with us um over that and you are not being able to service anymore. So I think that keeps them to the honest. And if not to have two other kind actis that I is.

that's awesome. Well, eric, this has been really cool. You mention you, I think two months ago you're at eighty three k then you kind of have a down months.

So i'm hoping for a one hundred k month for next month a while. Meanwhile, obviously, you ve had a lot you had a lot of experience you've earned to ton, but a lot of our listeners ers are new. So what's your advice for people who are just starting out?

Yeah kind include IT to this earlier. But I think if I could concentrate my advice and of one thing that would be find a customer because when you don't have a customer, you don't have a business, right? And before that point, there are like an infinite number of things that you could do, other things that you could optimize and you could write code.

I made this mistake myself. I literally was building this cup etes cluster for six months. Always a and stuff for I ultimately like like the product, but no one really wanted. And it's so easy as to do that. Be kind of comfort.

No, I was a program was so I just wanted to write code but then if you just say, okay, forget that, close the laptop, know whatever, commit your code, quit trying to mess with the design, whatever, it's fine. You don't need a logo, just literally get on the phone, talk to some people and just get the company. Because from that point on, once you have that, then everything all that kind of like uncertainty, all the other n important things not fall away.

And you can just focus on what matters, which is that customer getting the next customer and you know scaling from there and you'll see like what actually matters in a business, right? And IT, IT goes from being a project to really like an actual business. And so that is the one thing that I would just to do like next week, not next month today right now, literally to go get a customer right now. And I think that the most ban fish help, and you can possible .

do go get a customer right now. Every time thanked the time for someone on the show, you let listeners ers know where they can go to find out more about you and about your new job or also about japan.

Deff, yes, so my main project is to pan their that com yeah there is high but eventually forget its okay I have both uh and then rocket ships that I O is the other one if you are looking for a job right now, kind of a state between like a prototype and actually useful, but the artist jobs is up. So if you want to see a list of companies where I think there's a Better kind of risk reward profile, yeah picked that out.

Otherwise you think up on twitter underscore ET dev. E, T, T, F was taken as where I, what's what I am on everything else I can having everything but up twitter. That comes, I underscore E, T. And also, if you're in tokyo, I know that people are going on right now because the boards are playing up. Everything hit me up because i'm always looking to meet other hackers.

One hundred and was a dollar when you were mcDonald has just checked one hundred and sixty eight cents.

I'm going to come. Yes, it's ridiculous.

It's such a good deal right now. serious? Ly, yeah.

i'll see you. Thanks so much.