S2 E20: Curtis Flowers
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Lauren Collins on the unraveling of an expert on serial killers.

David Grand's impossible-to-put-down stories of mutiny and murder. Subscribe at newyorker.com slash dark, and you'll get access to all of it, plus a free New Yorker tote bag. I must say, the very best tote bag around. That's newyorker.com slash dark. It's been more than three years since I got an email from a woman telling me about a man named Curtis Flowers.

In the time since, I'd moved to Mississippi, interviewed hundreds of people, examined every piece of evidence in the case against him. And yet, in all that time, there was one person I was never able to really talk to, until now. So we are in the car, on our way to talk to Curtis Flowers. Believe it or not, after all this time, kind of, kind of crazy.

I'm Madeline Barron, and this is the final episode of Season 2 of In the Dark, Curtis Flowers. All right. The other day, I took a drive. I can't tell you exactly where I was, but I got out and set up in a backyard with the rest of the In the Dark crew, and I waited. And then... Hello. Hi. How are you doing? Hi. Nice to see you. Good morning, Curtis. I wish I could shake your hand, but I can't because of COVID. Honestly.

I understand. Yeah. Thanks for coming over. How was the drive? It was nice. It was nice. We sat down in the backyard at a safe social distance. All right. Wow. We're finally talking. Yes. How does it feel? Feels good. Yeah? Feels good. Mm-hmm.

Are you at all nervous? I'm kind of nervous. Okay. Well, we're just having a conversation. If you want to take a break at any point, take a break. If you need water, if you need snacks, if you just want water or want snacks, whatever, we'll just take it slow. Okay. Yeah. All right.

And we're outside, by the way, as we know, but I should just say it. The reason we're outside is because of COVID. Okay. So we're in a strange setup, but this has been a strange case. Yes, it has. Maybe it makes sense. Yeah, what has it been like being out? Kind of overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good feeling. Happy to be home. I bet. Yes. Kicking it with family, you know. I'm not going to tell you where exactly Curtis is living now because of concerns about his safety.

But I can tell you confidently that Curtis is with people who love him and care about him. He's been spending a lot of time just hanging out, playing dominoes, exercising. He's lost weight since the last time I saw him. A friend had even bought him a treadmill. He's also been back to Winona. And he was finally able to meet his four-year-old nephew for the first time. My nephew, Trill, he and I talked on the phone all the time. And I had this thing where every time he answered the phone, I said, what's up, Trill? So he had never saw my face.

And I remember walking into the house. He came over, and I hid from him. And I just yelled out, what's up, Trill? And I was peeping around the corner of his eye. It got so big because he recognized the voice, but he had never seen my face. So when I walked into the view, he just stood there and stared at me for a long time. Like shocked? Yes. And then finally he moved and came to give me a hug. Okay. Was he sort of freaked out? Yes. That is crazy then. I'm sure he was like, just couldn't know what to make of it.

So much has changed since Curtis was locked up 24 years ago. And Curtis is still figuring it out. Like this one day, when Curtis used the bathroom somewhere. He couldn't figure out how to flush the toilet. Just walk away, someone told him. He's thinking, really? That's kind of rude. But then he did walk away. To his great surprise, the toilet flushed on its own. Or take coffee, for example. I remember the first time they introduced me to cold coffee. I was like, who drinks cold coffee? He said, only you just got to try it.

So I got cold coffee on cream, with cream, with sugar and fell in love with it. Now the next time we went back, he said, you got to try the Frappuccino next. I said, hold on, hold on. That's a lot of sugar. He said, you're going to love it. And I tried it. I loved it. Yeah. And it has really been exciting though. Coming home, being able to get up when you get ready, eat when you get ready, lay down when you get ready. Yeah, those things are really been awesome.

I wanted to talk with Curtis about what his life was like before the murders, before he was arrested, back when he was just a kid growing up in Winona. It was real nice. I hung out with family all the time, friends. Yeah. What were your parents like growing up? Oh, they were awesome. They took us somewhere every summer. We did everything together. Cookouts, family reunions.

Yeah, it was fun. Yeah. What did you, did you play any sports? Basketball. Basketball. Mm-hmm. A little football. Mom didn't let me play long. She didn't want me to get hurt. Okay. Yeah, but she didn't like that. Mm-hmm. She was worried about you getting injured. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And so when you were growing up, like, did you have any sense of what you wanted to do with the rest of your life? At the time, I remember my friends and I used to get together and talk about what we wanted to do.

After high school. And at the time, I wanted to be a fireman. Why did you want to be a fireman? I don't know. I thought it was so cool, you know, to see him rushing through town on a fire truck, going to put out a fire. You know, as I got older, that changed. And I just didn't know what I wanted to do then. One thing Curtis told me he started doing very early on was singing. Yes, well, I started singing about at the age of 10. I used to sing in my room a lot. And my dad heard me one night.

And I didn't know he was outside the door. But he come in and he said, when are you going to start singing gospel? He said, you have a beautiful voice. And he said, I'm not going to force you the way my dad and my uncle did me. He said, because if I make you sing, you're not going to give me your all. He said, but if I let you come to me when you're ready, then you'll sing. It was about a week later, and I started singing with him, going to rehearsals. And my mom, she was my big supporter. Mm-hmm.

She just encouraged me on, you know. Sing, baby. Yeah, she would. For years while reporting on this case, the only time I'd actually heard Curtis Flowers' voice was on an old recording of him as a young man, singing with a gospel group. I love you, girl. Yes, sir. Oh, yes, you do.

So you're kind of, you're growing up, you're hanging out, playing basketball, hanging out with friends, family. Then you're in your 20s, you're staying in town, working a bunch of jobs. And then your life suddenly changes. Suddenly changes. Yeah. Curtis's life changed on July 16th, 1996, the day of the murders of four people at Tardy Furniture.

On that day, shortly after the murders, police showed up at Curtis's door. Do you remember that? Yes. And what did they say? They said they wanted to talk to me downtown. Did they say why? They didn't say until I got down there. Curtis was taken to the police station and sat down with the DA's investigator, John Johnson. And John Johnson started asking Curtis questions.

I said, so you guys are suspecting me? No, no, we just want to make sure you are clear of all this. We know you used to work there, you know, for a short period of time. Nobody's accusing you of anything. We just want to, you know, talk to you briefly. Maybe you could help us.

I said, well, any way I can. So I didn't think nothing of it at the time I talked with him. You didn't think to get a lawyer? No. I mean, John Johnson made it sound sweet, you know. So while this is happening, John Johnson sort of describing it like, don't worry, this is just sort of clear things up, see if you can help me. That's it. Nothing to be concerned about. Nothing to be concerned about. And then I remember leaving there. I'm talking about didn't even take me back home. I had to walk.

I get home and there's a guy up the street. He comes down. He said, man, John Johnson and a couple other guys coming all through the neighborhood asking about you. Oh, really? Yeah, they said, you're a suspect. They want to know, did I know you? Have I seen you moving about here and there? And I said, damn, they just told me I was not a suspect. And I was, oh, to find out I was a suspect in a murder, it was just heartbreaking. Because I felt everybody knew me, you know? I said, now me?

Curtis wasn't arrested for the murders right away. In fact, months passed while John Johnson and others continued to investigate the case. I wanted to ask Curtis about that time and about one person in particular, a man named Doyle Simpson. Doyle's dead now. I never got the chance to talk to him. But he's the guy who claimed that his gun was stolen from his car on the morning of the murders.

At a certain point, Doyle had gone from being a suspect himself to being a witness for the prosecution, testifying against Curtis. It looked as though Doyle got out of being a suspect by becoming a state's witness. Curtis told me something I'd never heard before. He said that same deal that seemed to have been offered to Doyle, according to Curtis, it had been offered to him, too. And I remember talking with Robert Tompkins, who used to be the chair. He said, uh,

He said, "Let me tell you something. Doug is looking for someone to put this on." He said, "There's no doubt in my mind. I do not believe you did this." He said, "But they got Doyle where they want him because, you know, he owned the gun. He really don't have no concrete alibi about where he was." He said, "But they got Doyle scared, and I think Doyle is willing to say he believe you did it, and they will use him any way they can." He said, "Now, if you would speak and testify against Doyle Simpson,

You'll be all right. I said, I cannot say that man did this. I don't know. That's really interesting. He said, well, he's willing to say you did it. I told him two wrongs don't make a right. I said, I was raised better than that. Over the years, like, did you ever look back and think maybe I should have said something about Doyle, even if it wasn't true? Well, no, because I just don't think that way. I never thought of just, oh, I'm just going to say Doyle did it. Just so they'll leave me alone, you know. No.

One of the things, Daddy used to always say, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. I can't say he did this. I just couldn't do it. To be sitting in a courtroom, looking someone in the face and say, yeah, I believe he did it. And I don't know. I couldn't do it. Months passed. Curtis moved to Texas with his girlfriend at the time. He got a job at a grocery store, and life was pretty normal. And then one day...

In January of 1997, about six months after the murders, law enforcement showed up at his house. I remember police showing up at the door. As a matter of fact, I was hooking up some popcorn shrimp to take to work with me for lunch. I answered the door, and he said, sorry to bother you, I'm looking for Curtis Flowers. I said, that's me. And next thing I know, I was against the wall. And he told me, he said, we have...

No beef with you or anything like that. We just have a warrant for your arrest back in Mississippi. And I said, for what? And he told me and I said, oh, that can't be me. He said, well, your name's Curtis, right? I said, that's me. And they took me on down to the station. And matter of fact, they were dressing me up when John Johnson, Matthew and I think his last name, Miller. Oh, Wayne Miller. Yeah, when the three of them walked in.

John Johnson, the DA's investigator, was there. And Curtis said so were two state investigators, Wayne Miller and Jack Matthews. And you get in the car with them and they drive back with you to Winona? Yes. And that's like a long drive, like seven hours. What was that drive like? It was very quiet on my part. You know, then they're trying to strike conversation, you know, ask you certain things and stuff like that. And he said, you don't have anything to say? I said, no, I don't.

But they tried to, they were trying to talk to you. Mm-hmm. John John sat in the back seat with me. Oh, really? Mm-hmm. The whole time? The whole time. Wow. Trying to get you to basically say I did this. Yes. And all I did was just stare out the window the whole time. Wow. Mm-hmm. I was so happy to see Mississippi because my neck was hurting. It had been turned one way the whole time. Wow. Yeah. And all he did was just ask questions, but I never said anything.

Curtis was taken to jail to await trial. What are you thinking is going to happen at the trial? They would prove my innocence. They'd prove your innocence? Yes. At the end of this, they're going to say not guilty? I was thinking, like, surely they will see through this, you know? Yeah. As you can see, that didn't work out. The trial began, and Curtis told me he watched as one witness after another got up and testified to things he said he knew weren't true.

Like that they'd spotted him near the furniture store that morning. Walking the route, the DA, Doug Evans, said he took. One day at trial, in walked a guy Curtis had actually shared a cell with, a fellow inmate in the jail, a guy named Frederick Veal. Veal couldn't even look at me. He said, yeah, he admitted to the crimes. And I was like, oh, Lord. I remember looking around at my mom and she said, just be cool. It was nerve-wracking.

And, like, what about, like, someone like Clemmie Fleming or any of the people who testify on the route? Like, these are people you grew up with. Like, you would have known them, sort of, or see them around? Yeah, and I used to see Clemmie in the past. As a matter of fact, their family used to live right up on the next street from my mom and dad. Right, like around the corner. And to see her get out there, I kind of felt sorry for her because there were other people saying that she was pressured to do what she did. Clemmie Fleming recanted years later in an interview with us.

She said her testimony, that she saw Curtis running away from the furniture store on the morning of the murders, wasn't true. Frederick Veal and the other so-called jailhouse informants also later admitted they'd lied. But I just don't understand why people would just go and just lie like that, you know? To hear people take their witness stand and just flatfoot tell a lie, you know?

There's nothing you can do about it. You can't say anything. If you do, people are going to think weird of you now. Oh, maybe he'll look like he's lashing out. But it was hard to sit there and just hear things and not be able to say anything. Right. Because you know people are up there lying. Yeah, and you've got a jury. You're already on thin rope with it. So you have to just keep your composure and just listen.

And the person calling all those lying witnesses to the stand was the prosecutor, District Attorney Doug Evans. I sit in that courtroom and it was like Doug always looked over my way and he always had a smile on his face. And Doug Evans would like look over and he'd be like smiling at you? Every time he sat down, when he sat down, he would always have this thing where he'd lean in and he'd look my way and he'd just smile.

What do you make of that? Well, I wanted to say something. How you're talking about it feels like he started saying, I own the place. Yes. This is my place. At some point, I believed it. I'm serious. He gets everything he wanted, you know? In that first trial, the all-white jury deliberated for one hour and six minutes before coming back with its verdict, guilty. I just took all the air out of me. I really did.

I'm talking about I was so hurt that I was numb with it, you know? Like you didn't see it coming. I didn't see it coming at all. So the jury comes back. They say guilty. Then they go... Then we have sentencing. And then they come back and they say death penalty. Yes. And I wonder if you can talk to me about that moment. Oh, I just... I can't even describe the feeling to you. It was... It was like having the air sucked out of you, you know? You can't breathe. I was...

I think I felt relieved to get out of the courtroom, back to a hold and say, well, I could just sit for a minute. I just couldn't believe it. And I remember one of the deputies said, your mom wants to speak with you. Ain't a lot of back there. And we talked for a minute, and she told me, keep your head up, don't give up. I know it's a lie, you know it's a lie. She said, everybody know you know it's a lie, but don't give up. I don't think it really sunk in until I got to Parshman.

Yeah, I was thinking about, you know, what that would have been like for you. You're in your mid-20s. You've had, you know, this life really close with your family. And all of a sudden, you're in prison. In prison. And so when you got there, what do you remember that, like, do you remember that first day or that first night? Yes, I remember going through a strip search. And I thought that was one of the weirdest things, you know. They would have someone, well, I'm going to need you to take off all your clothes. Yeah.

You know, last time I heard that was a pretty woman, you know, but you had to pee and cough. You know, they want to check you, see all the tattoos you got, got to be recorded. Yeah, and I later found out in just case an inmate runs off, you know, they could put out there what type of tattoos and everything he has. Yeah, but it was rough. You know, to hear those bars slam behind you and placed in a small cell and every day looked like it was getting smaller and smaller, you know.

Really? Yes. It was rough. It really was. You know, to hear other inmates crying out at night, you know, and so-and-so, so-and-so, I need an officer. I think so-and-so, so-and-so, and so-and-so done hung himself, you know? And it was just heartbreaking. Because you can hear all of this in yourself. I can hear all of this. You can't see them, but you can hear them, you know? Yeah. What did you saw look like? Oh, man.

Like a shed. - Like a shed. - Yeah, there was a concrete bunk. There was a toilet. There was a sink. And then there was a little stand for a little small TV. And that was it. Then as time went on, it just got worse and worse. Then the sewer system started backing up. The plumbing, water wouldn't go straight down. - So your toilet would be backing up into your cell. - Yes, yes.

No air conditioning, of course. No air conditioning for that girl. Yeah. Nothing but heat. Oh, it got pretty hot in there. I'm talking about when you just sit and constantly sweat. Yeah, I was sitting. You were just praying for rain because that made things a lot cooler. Yeah, and then it was short-lived because the mosquitoes got even badder after that. Yeah, it was a problem.

Yeah, your mother told me that sometimes there were even rats in the prison. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. You could hear them all night just running up and down the hallway. I think I had caught so many rats on a sticky trap. I had took and put a Ritz crack on it and set it at the door. And I'm telling you, I got up one morning, I know I had at least six rats on that one trap trying to get to that cracker. Oh, oh, Parchment, Mississippi, yeah. It's just terrible over there.

So how did it feel to be there and to be like, I'm innocent. I don't belong here. I used to say that a lot, too. And it became where I thought I was sounding like a broken record. You know, I said, well, you know, inmates probably say this all the time, you know. Oh, that they're innocent? Yes, and not, you know. And be obviously guilty. Yes, and I think as time went on, I learned that I couldn't help myself if I was, you know, down and out all the time.

And, you know, and I talked with my mom a lot, you know, and I started reading a lot and got into Word and, you know, and it gave me some sort of peace, you know. But I just don't think I could have got through it without family and support, you know, always checking in on me and everything. You know, having a family.

that loved me and supported me. So many people lose all of that when they're in prison for so long. You know, their friends stop being interested in them or they just get busy. Parents stop showing up. You know, but that doesn't sound like it was the case for you. No, it wasn't. Like I said, my mom, dad, they were always there. Every two weeks we go. We don't miss a bit. Even when the prison was on institutional lockdown,

They were out there trying to get in, you know. So what happened? Oh, they on lockdown. The whole thing on lockdown. They never missed a visit. So you came all this way for nothing? Uh-huh. So you'll come back in two weeks? Uh-huh. There was one time we had a little ice storm, and my mom, she slipped and slid on in there. Yeah, I said, I told her, you got to stay at home. She said, no, I have to see you.

Yeah. How did that feel? It felt great. It felt great to have, because I was around a lot of death row inmates who didn't have that. You know, and I watched guys self-destruct, you know, and some, you know, get psych meds and can't even tell you what day it is. Yeah, they just got strung out on it. And it was saddening. Yeah, I never took a psych drug or anything, you know.

I wanted to talk to you a little bit about what it was like when your parents came to visit you in Parchman. Oh, it was a bunch of laughter. Laughter. Yeah. We shared tears sometimes, talking about different things. But it was mostly laughter. You know, I never wanted to see my mom there unhappy or sad. So a lot of times when I go in, I'm already joking. And I get her to laugh, and the whole visit just goes from there, you know?

We'd talk about old times and things like that. And that was very uplifting, you know. Yeah, your father talked to us a lot about how you would sing together when he went to visit you. Give me peace, you know. We'll be back after the break.

I'm investigative journalist and former deputy sheriff Scott Weinberg. And I'm Anna Segan-Nicolazzi, former New York City homicide prosecutor. Each week on our podcast, Anatomy of Murder, we give you the inside perspective as we dissect the layers of each case, the victim, the victim.

the crime and the investigation. You'll hear from victims, loved ones, and those actually involved in the journeys to justice. Because the heart of each of these cases and this podcast is people. Listen to Anatomy of Murder now wherever you listen to podcasts.

Support for this podcast comes from Sutter Health, from doctors who never stop answering your questions to cardiac specialty centers that never stop helping hearts. Sutter is more than 220 hospitals and clinics that never stop caring for Californians. SutterHealth.org. When Curtis first went to prison, he actually didn't think he'd be there very long. He assumed that if he won his appeal, he'd be going home. When, you know, that first year went by, I was like, wow. Wow.

Curtis eventually did win his first appeal, and his second, and his third. But every time, the DA, Doug Evans, just tried the case again.

And Curtis told me that what this looked like for him was that when his conviction was overturned, he'd leave death row. He'd say goodbye to the inmates and the guards, basically hoping that he'd never see them again. And then he'd get taken to a local jail where he'd wait for his next trial, where he could see his family and friends a lot more, where he had a little more freedom, a little more space, a little more hope. But then Curtis would be convicted again and sentenced to death again. And he'd be sent right back to death row.

They would snatch me out, try me, and send me right back. Then they tried me again. That was hurtful, though. Prison to jail, jail to prison, on death row, off death row, back and forth. It went on like this for so long. And it's so sad and heartbreaking when you sit there and there's nothing you can do about it, you know? Days go by, it's been years, you know? And I just want that relief, you know? I get close to home so many times, and...

And it was like, do again, we'll just find out another way to put me back. When you would come back then to Parchman, did Parchman seem even worse every time you came back? Yes, it did. Yes, it did. And it was worse every time I came back. I think being able to talk to certain officers who were just real nice, you know. They hated to see me come back. Mm.

Really? That you'd come back and what would they say? Oh, man, I can't believe they sent you back, man. You have got to get your trial out of there or something, man, because that DA is something else. Another trial meant another time Curtis would watch as DA Doug Evans and his assistant prosecutors struck one Black juror after another, always ending up with a jury that was either all white or mostly white.

Curtis told me it was obvious to him what Doug Evans was trying to do. Well, I chalked that up to Doug being good at dirty work, you know, because he was using those strikes to get rid of them. When you look over at the jury box and you see it is all white people, what do you think? We should have not even had this trial. I've thought that many times. But I remember when having a conversation with an attorney or attorney,

Ray Charles Carter. And we picked a jury once and he looked over at me, he leaned over and he said, "What do you think?" I said, "It's over with before you even get started." And I said, "Look how they're looking at me." "Man," I said, "they need to already express how they feel about it before..." You know, and then Doug was doing this thing where, you know, he said, "Do you think you can set your feelings aside and base your decision on what you hear from the witness stand?" You know, and it's just the way they look at him, say, "Yes, I can." And you know it wasn't true.

But the more it went on, the worse I felt. Curtis told me that he started to feel a little more hope in trials four and five. In those trials, the juries were a little more diverse. And in both of them, the jury hung. They couldn't agree on a verdict. And I said, well, maybe we're getting somewhere now. They're starting to see Doug giving lies, you know?

But then trial six came around. And once again, Curtis was convicted. This time by a jury of 11 white people and one Black person. And Curtis was sent back to death row. When you were back in prison and you kept coming back, did you ever feel like, you know what, like I'm just done? I'm done trying to fight this? It crossed my mind a couple times. But I always thought about family, friends, you know, and family.

how hard my mom fought for me, you know, and stuff like that. These things kept me motivated. - So if you hadn't had family like that, you might have just-- - I may have, yeah. You know, 'cause it was a thought a time or two, so I think if it wasn't for them, I may have, you know. 'Cause you see it all the time, you know, and some people just give up. You see guys, like I said, getting drugged by psych doctors, and they encourage them to take something.

And I just understand it because they just sleep all the time. You have some lash out and act up, they go in and give them a shot. You may not hear from that inmate about two days, just sleeping. I don't know what it was they were giving them in them syringes, but hey.

Yeah, it was tough. So all around you, people are, in no surprise, not dealing with this well at all. I mean, everybody's panicking. People are getting sedated, basically. Exactly. Just to get them through it. Because you also would see people leave to be executed, right? Exactly. And can you talk a little bit about that? Well, I was there doing three or four of them. I think the hardest part was hearing that they had set a date for an inmate, you know, and then you have to

be on the same zone with them, you know, and this is a person you usually hear talk a lot, but they don't, you know, and guards and nurses come around every day leading up to that. They would give an inmate whatever he needed to calm him. I heard my next-door neighbor said that they had just gave someone the Valium. I said, I didn't think they had those anymore.

And to hear them, they're so calm and quiet, you know. You had some try to take their own lives because they didn't want to be executed in front of people. So they had to be taken, put in a suicide cell and strapped down in a straitjacket. Yeah, until that time. But it was, it just takes your breath away, you know, to be that close to someone getting ready to be executed. And there were some who went.

And, you know, the governor gave them a, you know, whatever you call it. Where you commute the sentence? Mm-hmm. Where they come back and they stay so many days. Or the last minute. Yes. Last minute. And to see an inmate come back and be so happy, and yet a few days later they take them anyway, you know. And I thought that was the worst part, you know. You bring them back, you know, and they have all this hope that things are going to change. And they still get taken up there and executed. Oh, God.

And I thought that was the worst feeling. I remember hearing the inmate, not too far from me, his last request. You know, he wanted a cheeseburger, he wanted shrimp, he wanted a fried catfish, a milkshake, and they give him all this. And they took him over and they brought him back the next day. And when they come back to get him again, he said, "Well, just look at the bright side. You get to have what you want to eat again."

Did it make you think about what it would be like if this happened to you? Yes, yes. I'm telling you, it stirs all kinds of emotions, you know. Here I am in here on a crime I did not commit. What does that mean next, you know? Maybe we could talk a little bit, jump to the moment when...

we first found out about your case. And so the way that I found out about it was a woman emailed me. She was just a random woman. - Oh. - Yeah, who said, "There's this guy in Mississippi named Curtis Flowers, who's been tried six times for the same crime." She said, "The evidence against him is iffy, but he didn't have a chance." And that was pretty much it. And at first I was like, "This is impossible. Six trials? Like, no. There's no way that someone's been tried six times."

And then we found out, no, it's true. And then I think a pretty short time after that, I wrote you a letter. And I don't know, do you remember getting the letter? Yes, I still have that letter. And I remember talking with one of the attorneys at the time. Is it okay to write back? Well, I don't think you should at this time.

Because, you know, you don't want them to get where if you write Madeline, she could get suspended, you know, or judge, try to have the letter taken and flip it into something that it's not, you know. So I was encouraged not to do it at the time. But I always got your letters and I kept them. You kept them? Yes. I used to talk to my mom about you. I used to tell you hello.

- Yes, and tell her I thank her for everything she's doing. - Mm-hmm. - Had people gotten your hopes up in some ways before? Like, had a reporter written to you before? - No. - No? - No. - Okay.

And so did you have a sense of what we were doing while we were doing it? Because I wrote to you a couple times, but I never wrote to you and said, these are the people I've talked to or this is what I'm finding out. No, I did not. I just knew at some point you guys were going around and talking to people. We sent you transcripts when the podcast came out. Did you get those in prison? Yes, I did. Still have them. And what was it like reading those? Oh, it was...

It's a great feeling inside, you know, to see all this, you know, unfolding and everything. The people you guys have talked to and people who were just willing to talk and tell everything, you know. And I said, because we cannot get that done. I don't know what it is. You guys were just so charming or whatever. But we couldn't get it done at first, you know. Because you're reading pretty well.

Pretty big things that are happening. I wonder about when you were reading and the witnesses who said they saw you walking around town that morning are now telling us, some of them, that that story is not true. You're sitting in your cell reading that, and what do you...

A lot of times I say to myself, oh, it was about time. You know, what took so long? But I was happy they did it, you know? Oh, so you would see someone finally admit. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that testimony was false. Yes, I gave it six times in six different trials. And you'd think, like, come on, why couldn't you? Exactly. And I remember reading about something. Some guy, I can't remember his name, said that I was only saying what they wanted me to say, so they'd leave me alone. It was...

depressing sometimes to read things like that but then you know I was happy that they did come through yeah and I think the more things I heard about you guys and you know the episodes that they come out it it really brightened my day you know and and I'm telling them to hear all the the stuff that was going on you know and and people recounting their stories and stuff like that you know and

And I, oh, what took so long? But it really made me feel good to have you guys investigating this. And so when you're reading these transcripts, do you remember, are there like a couple moments that stood out to you in particular, things we found out? I think the biggest thing that really stood out to me right away is when I saw that Odell had done turn against Doug and told the truth.

Poor Ed, you know what I'm telling me? He killed some people. Hell no, he never told me that. That was a lie. And I was like, how did Melanema even get in touch with him? This was going through my head, you know? That was Samara, but yeah. Yeah, it's because he'd stuck by that. And you knew it wasn't true, but there's a big difference between knowing it's not true and getting him to say it. And I think I was always frustrated about Odell.

Because I felt that Doug would take somebody like Odell and just get whatever he wanted from him. And to hear that he recanted his story, I just couldn't believe it. I just couldn't believe it.

So when you're sitting there in your cell and you're reading this, do you call someone or do you, what do you do? I even talk to Angela. Angela is one of Curtis's sisters. No, she said, and her word, boy, just know things are going good out here. They are uncovering stuff. She said, at the time, she said, I don't know where melanin come from, but I'm glad they're here. Yeah, I said, no, but yeah, things really started to pick up for me, you know, and

I could breathe a lot easier. Yeah, so I just kept talking with family and just waited, you know. And my mom used to always say, "You don't come this far, you cannot give up now." She said, "Don't roll over and then take whatever they throwing at you, you know, don't settle." And I just kept fighting, kept fighting. Yeah, at a certain point, you probably started getting a lot of mail, right? Oh, yes. Especially after you guys got started and started putting the episodes out there.

The mail just started ringing in. Like how much mail are you talking about? Oh, I'm talking 10, 14 letters a day, sometimes more.

And sometimes I would go through them. There was some, I said, well, I'm going to hold off until tomorrow and read these. But it was just so much mail, you know, it could get overwhelming sometimes. Yeah, your mom actually talked to me about this and said that she gave you some advice, like, because you were a little stressed almost about the amount of mail. Yes. And she said she told you, like, Curtis, you don't have to write everyone back. Yes, and I told her, I said, I'm doing nothing, so I may as well, you know. What were people saying in the letters? Oh, they had heard about the case through In the Dark.

And they can't believe I was still locked up, and they're praying for me. If you just need someone to talk to, I'm always here. Please write me. Or if you want to call, put my number on your list. And I got so many of those that I couldn't put them on. I can only have 10 numbers at a time. And so I just write them down in my address book, and I just held on to them. So you went from a lot of isolation. You're still in prison at this point, but all of a sudden...

People all around the country and I think also all around the world in some cases are aware of your case or writing to you. What did that feel like? It felt great. I was getting postcards and letters from all the way over in the Netherlands and everything. Then people started sending photos, hundreds of photos. I remember one time they did a shakedown and an officer told me, he said, you have too many photos in this room.

He said, "Don't you know you're only allowed 35 at a time?" And he said, "Every time you get pictures, you have to pick out the 35 you want and get rid of the rest or put them in storage." A lieutenant walked in behind him. He said, "Well, they keep it so well organized. Just let them have them."

So these are all photos that people signed you? Oh, yeah. Yes. Curtis saved all those photos. This person wrote back, the revolution will be mailed. And showed them to me. Hashtag black letters matter. There are pictures of families, pictures of smiling babies, pictures of people's vacations. This one female sent me a picture from Hawaii. She just wrote in the sand, aloha, Curtis. That's cool.

Someone sent you a photo from Harry Potter world. Yes. I'm just looking at all these bright pictures, you know, and I find myself just drifting off into them, you know.

What's this about? Good eating. People even sent pictures of their dinners. Like cheeseburger, corn on a cob with some type of cheese or something on it. When you're in prison, is that the sort of photo that you want or not want? I'm sure it looked good looking at it at the time, you know? If you're in a place like that for so long, you love seeing different food, you know? Good food. So this is the stuff that you had to kind of take your mind off things? Well, but it was nice to receive them, you know? Things were starting to look up for Curtis.

But then his mother, the person Curtis was closest to, started not feeling so well. You know, she was in pain and everything, and she came to see me. She came to see you right before? Yes, and she kept getting up, going to the bathroom, and I said, what's wrong with you? And she told me she was in a lot of pain, you know, and I said, well, why did you come over here? She said, I just had to see you again. And, you know, and the following week she passed.

- Mm-hmm. And I just couldn't believe she came over there feeling like that, you know? - She was feeling really sick. - Yes. And I remember she told me when she got ready to leave, she said, "When I leave here, I'm going to the hospital." And the following week, she passed away. - Did you get to say goodbye? - No, I didn't. I talked to her the night before and I told her, I said, "Well, I'll call you in the morning, see how you're doing." But when I called, Angela answered on her phone and she told me she had passed away. - So your sister told you? - Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And it was a sad moment. Mm-hmm. So I pretended that it was my turn to go to the shower because I didn't want her to hear me, you know? You told your sister, I've got to go. Yeah, they obviously at my door, you better take me to the shower. And I just didn't want her to hear me crying or nothing. Why? Because they were going through enough as it is, you know? And to know that I was there, upset, crying, then they're just worrying about me now. So, yeah, I got off the phone with her and...

Got it out and she and I eventually started talking again and uh, she said where you being all day? I just couldn't talk to him right there. Yeah, I couldn't because everybody's so sad, you know, and it was raw It was raw. Yeah Mm-hmm. All right, let me get through this Yeah Yeah, because I get emotional, you know, oh it's normal yes, and and you know, uh

And I imagine a lot of what you were thinking about being out was about being with your mom. Yes, and I miss her, you know, sitting around in the kitchen talking, teaching me all these good things, you know, all these good recipes. Yeah, she told us she was collecting. You would send her recipes and she would collect them for you? Yeah, these are things I want to try, and if I see it, I would cut it out and just mail it to her and tell her to put it up for me. Yeah, all the good cooking.

Yes, and just talking and, you know, because I could talk to my mom about anything. Yes. Yeah. There were so many times when we would be over at your parents' house and she would get a call from you and kind of go in the other room. Mm-hmm. So it seemed like you were having conversations all the time. Oh, yes. I talked with my mom just about every day. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

She would get upset if I didn't call. Yeah. Yeah, I told her there's phone bills, you know, so I try not to call every day. She said, you let me worry about that. Yeah, so we talked all the time. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sometimes twice a day. Yeah. Yeah, and her passing, oh, it took a lot out of me. It really did. Yeah, my mom, she's my rock.

Lola Flowers told me again and again that she was certain that one day her son Curtis would be free. God gonna work this thing out, I do believe. Might not be when we want to, but he gonna do. Curtis coming out. But she didn't live to see it happen. She'd been gone four months when Curtis's story made headlines around the country because the U.S. Supreme Court had agreed to take the case. A few months later, they reversed his conviction.

Curtis packed up his cell and got ready to leave death row. On his way out, Curtis stopped by the hospital wing to pick up his insulin medication. They handed it to him in a plastic bag.

One of the nurses, she had wrote on it with a black magic marker put on there, this is our last time seeing you here. She said, I know you're going home. But Curtis still wasn't free. He was still under indictment for the murders, still locked up in a local jail, waiting for his next hearing, the hearing that would decide whether he'd be granted bail. I think the closer the bail hearing got, the more nervous I got.

And I said, I've been this close many times, you know, and they have to go right back, you know. Hopefully they get it right this time. And I remember getting to the county jail and there were officers, lieutenants, chief of security. And we talked and he said, man, let me tell you something. I know a lot of them and I got a chance to know Loper. Loper has done a 360 since probably the last time you saw him in a courtroom. He said, I really don't believe they're going to try you again.

So the guards told you that the judge had changed his mind. He said, I really believe Lope is going to change his mind. So when you went to the bail hearing, which is the first time we were in the same room together, you knew that already. No, I didn't know, no. I wasn't for sure. Well, yeah. You've been through it so many times that how could you possibly be for sure until you see it in writing or hear it from the judge? Exactly. Yeah. But you kind of were thinking maybe? I believed it. I hoped it. Exactly.

It wasn't until we would come back out the recess and Lovett just started talking and as he went on and on and on. And when he started to say some bad things about Doug. I said, oh, this might work. He may just give it to me. They granted me bail and, oh, I didn't even know how to act.

And I got back to that county jail and I just pranced back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And eventually he told me, "All right, Flowers, get all your stuff, come out." And I was so happy. That was a good moment right there.

And what was that like when you walked out of jail? Oh, it was real fun and exciting until I turned the beam and I saw all the cameras and stuff. I said, oh, they didn't even warn me about this. And Rob was behind me and said, you're going to do good. I said, I don't know now. Then my sisters, you know, they were on each arm and they really helped me.

How are you feeling? How are you feeling right now? I feel good right now. I'm happy. I'm out. What are you looking forward to now that you're out? Spending time with family. Yeah, and talking with Miss Madeline soon. Yeah, yeah. A real fun moment. And I think the funnest part of that is when we pulled out of the parking lot at the jail, I was changing clothes in the back of the truck. Yeah, and my baby sister, she was like this, I can't believe you're changing clothes right now. I said, yeah, I got to put on something comfortable.

Yeah, but it was real fun. Got to the house and, you know, they had the fish fried. And we just had fun half the night. And I'll see you, I'll be ready in the morning. Ready to leave. Yeah. I left Wynonna, you know, because I saw a lot of people in Wynonna who, you know, supported me and everything. But, you know, everybody don't feel that way. I just can't help but assume that. Yeah, and so I just feel, you know, it's...

I shouldn't have to worry about anything, you know? So I left and decided to just move away. I told my dad I would pop back in from time to time and visit. Yeah, but one on is not somewhere I would just want to go and hang out. And how come? Well, just to be safe and, you know, I don't want to have my family worried, stuff like that. So I just decided to move away. Mm-hmm.

Curtis left Winona, and then he waited. Until... After nearly 23 years in prison, Curtis Flowers tonight is a free man. All charges have been dropped. Mississippi Attorney General Lynn Fitch's office... It was finally over. And from that point on, for the first time in decades, Curtis's life was truly his own. He could do what he wanted, go where he wanted. He went back to Winona for a few weeks, visited his father...

We sit on the porch every day and just talk all day long. And just watch the traffic go up and down the highway. We sing a few songs together, and we just laugh and talk and hang out in the yard, hanging out with family. Then Curtis left again, went back to the safe place he's staying now, the place where he's figuring out what his new life will look like. So when you look back at all of this, 23 years, six trials, why do you think all this happened? To this day, I don't know.

I still wonder about that. I often think about all that I've been through, you know, and it's sad, you know. There's still a lot of people that I'm disappointed in, but I find that if I sit around and stress over this and that, it only just makes it worse, you know, so I just try to let it go. The prosecutor, Doug Evans, he's still the district attorney. Yes. Is there anything that you would want to say to Doug Evans? No.

No. Just be honest about that, no. I wouldn't. How come? Some things just don't need to be said. What's understood is understood. I feel that Doug was wrong. He knew he was wrong. But as far as a conversation, no. When you picture your life like five, ten years from now, what do you see? I hope to see Curtis up and doing a lot better, you know?

moving on in life and maybe this nice house you know and getting married and nice family you know I'll probably be doing a lot of this a lot of this interviewing business okay but yeah just just want to do better you know getting on up there in age so I need to find out where Curtis want to be and and just try to live life you know so I'm looking forward to that well I wish you the best and I'd like you

I thank you. All right. Thank you so much for taking so much time to talk with us about a lot of really hard things. Yes. I really appreciate it. You all so much. Been looking forward to it. Me too. All right. Take it easy, Curtis. All right. You all do too. Okay. Thank you so much. I look forward to seeing you all again. Yeah, same. Yes. Bye. Thank you. It worked out.

Here I am. 24 years later. 24 years later, here I am. I don't even know if I could do this. It's been a minute. I've had some good days. I've had some hills to climb. I've had some weary days and some lonely nights.

But when I look around and I think things over, all of my good days outweigh my bad days. And I won't complain. I've had some good days.

I've had some hills to climb. I've had some weary days and some sleepless nights. But when I look around and I think things over, all of my good days

I'll weigh my bad days and I won't complain. How was that? It was all right? It's been a minute. Yes, but I try. We have a lot more on our website, inthedarkpodcast.org.

That's also where you can find all kinds of information about the case, about the power of prosecutors, about how jury selection works. So if you haven't checked it out yet, please do. In the Dark is reported and produced by me, Madeline Barron, managing producer Samara Fremark, producer Natalie Jablonski, associate producer Raymond Tungakar, and reporter Parker Yesko. Our data reporter is Will Kraft. This series was edited by Katherine Winter.

The editor-in-chief of APM Reports is Chris Worthington. This episode was mixed by Corey Schreppel. Original music for this series by Gary Meister and Johnny Vince Evans. Photography for this series by Ben Depp. Videography for this episode by Robbie Flores. Transcription for this episode by Alondra Sierra. And a special thank you to Lauren Humpert. And to all of you who've listened and supported our work over so many years, thank you.

Hi, I'm Laleh Arakoglu, host of Women Who Travel. This summer, we visit a remote Danish island with strong Viking roots. So I think it was also part of the history you told yourself. We're strong women here. We're strong women. This is the culture of this island. We've crossed the country with a baseball stadium chaser. Some games could be a day game and then you drive to your next location and take in a night game. And then you turn around and try to get to a day game.

And, well, how can it be summer without at least one mouth-watering moment in France? I'm in a country where there's all these wonderful cheeses and fruits, and I tasted a white nectarine, and it was small and ugly, but it just had a sweetness and a juice that shocked me. Join me, Laleh Arakoglu, every week for more adventures on Women Who Travel, wherever you listen. From PR.