2. “We’re worth $1 million, but we're so cheap, our friends don't want to see us anymore”
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Before we start today's show, I have a really exciting announcement that I've been wanting to share for a long time. On January 1st, 2025, I'm releasing a new book called Money for Couples. For the last three years, you've heard me on this podcast speaking to different couples every single Tuesday. I've spoken to over 170 couples on this show about their money psychology, the money messages they heard from their family, the peculiar dynamics that they have around money and where they get stuck.

and how they can get on the same page. Well, behind the scenes, I've been working on the definitive book to help couples get on the same page with money, and that's what I wrote for you. It's coming out January 1st, and in the book, I'm going to share how to talk about money, including the exact words to use, when to talk about it, how to teach your kids about money, even the exact agenda and account setup that my wife and I use in our finances.

I'm going to show the tactics to make instant improvements, like how to set up your accounts to automatically work together and how to assess your financial health.

And finally, you're going to get a deeper understanding of money psychology in your relationship. And you're going to discover why you and your partner see money differently and how to get on the same page. Now, it's one thing to listen to couples or watch couples every single week. I love doing that for you. But it's a whole different thing to be able to have the book and to be able to work through it with your partner. Okay?

I'm so excited to get this book in your hands. You can pre-order it using the link IWT.com slash money for couples and stay tuned for a lot more on this book this year. Again, go to IWT.com slash money for couples to pre-order my new book about getting on the same financial page as your partner.

Um, what the hell is going on on this podcast that like 80% of the people who come on here go through massive screening, fill out applications, they never actually read my book. Is anyone else puzzled by this? Look, a lot of the questions that you ask me about money are answered directly in I Will Teach You To Be Rich. How do you pay off your student loans? How do you automate your finances? Where do you start investing and how do you handle big purchases?

I wrote this book as a six-week program so you can follow along on your own or with a partner. If you want to improve your finances, I recommend you get the I Will Teach You To Be Rich book. It has over 18,000 reviews on Amazon. Get it at iwt.com book.

It's annoying. How much money do you make an hour and how much time are you spending trying to save $2? It doesn't make sense. And it's annoying when we go out for dinner, you're like, I want this thing, but I'm going to get this thing because $5 is different. And $150 bill, who cares? He's cheap. My guests today are Ashley and Greg. They have a household income of over $250,000 and a substantial net worth of

But what happens when only one person in a relationship wants to spend money and the other is an aggressive or even obsessive saver? Would your family say that you are cheap? Yes. Yeah. What about friends? Yes. Some. I don't think all of them. You want to know something? You're cheap. If your friends and family would say it, you are cheap.

It's one thing to be careful with your money, but being cheap is totally different. It puts a strain on relationships. It shapes and changes your identity, and you end up hoarding money with no purpose whatsoever. Why do you return all my gifts that I buy you because you don't want me to spend money? I don't like the gifts. And the real issue that we're going to discuss today is not about money. It's much deeper.

We're going to figure out what's going on here. Do you two want to ask each other anything or share how you're feeling? No. Today's couple is Ashley and Greg. Ashley reached out to me because there's a serious problem in their relationship. The way that they view their finances is creating a rift between them, and it's threatening to tear them apart.

There's been times where our friends want to go out for dinner and we don't go and then we stop getting invited. Or like we're particular about like where we want to go. They'll pick expensive places and we say, can you pick something cheaper? And then I feel like it's just a problem for them. You think you are cheapskates? There's some things that I'm willing to spend money on, but not Greg. He's a cheapskate.

Okay, first of all, when you ask people if they're cheap, they will never ever admit it. But usually in the next sentence, they'll tell you everything you need to know. Oh, no, no, no, I'm not cheap. I just prefer to find old food outside the back of a dumpster because it's a great value. But no, no, I'm not cheap. In this case, notice the deflection that Ashley employs. She immediately says,

pawns off the cheapness onto Greg. Let's listen to what he says. Greg, is that true? I don't put a lot of value on material things. So neither of you will admit that you're cheapskates, except one of you just threw the other under the bus. I just want to get their income and savings out of the way because a lot of people believe that, oh, they're cheap because they don't have a lot of money. And it turns out that cheap and net worth are not correlated whatsoever.

Listen to their numbers. Together, we make about $240,000 now plus bonuses. So let's say $270,000. We have our house and we have a rental property and the equity between those two are almost a million dollars. And then with our savings, we have about $500,000.

Great. Any other big financial items that I should know about? I have a diamond ring. I don't know how much it's worth, but it's two carats. Whoa. Oh, that sounds cool. Congratulations. How long have you been married? Five and a half years. How much is your total housing expense per month?

We're paying it off quicker than we need to. So I think like all of our expenses for the whole year, it's about $46,000. $46,000 for the entire year of all expenses? Oh, just house. Do you want to know food too? Oh, no, that's fine. I'm going to guess that your food expenses are relatively inexpensive. Would that be accurate? Oh, no, we spend a lot on food, like $25,000 last year. Okay. Okay.

Tell me about that. We're very health conscious. So we spend a lot of money on like grass fed pastures, meat, wild fish, organic food, like whole foods, high quality coffee. And yep, I don't really know how we spend that much money. We tried to spend less, but it's not really working out for us. Why do you try to spend less?

Because who wants to spend that much on food? I'd rather spend that going out with people or maybe like some clothes. I think you hear people like spending $400 to $600 on groceries a month and we're like, we're at $2,000. And we question how we're at $2,000 when families of four spend like $1,000 and the two of us alone spend $2,000. So that's why we try to rein it in. And it's pretty ridiculous that

We are as high as we are, even though we're being conscious of it. If you wanted to rein it in, do you think that you could? No. We literally cut out like fresh berries because berries like you either don't eat them or they go bad or they're expensive to start. Again, we're going to buy organic berries. So you're already paying a premium for it. Okay, there's something going on here. They have a high income, about $270,000 a year and a net worth of over a million bucks. Their friends think they're cheap.

but they feel guilty about spending on organic berries. And what's even odder is they don't seem to think they have any control in this situation. Their $25,000 food bill is a total mystery to them. I'm gonna dig deeper on this.

We started ordering meat directly from the farmer instead of a middleman. I think that's helped a little bit, but not really. And then we buy what we can at Costco because that's substantially cheaper. But otherwise, like I would like to shop more at the farmer's market, but Greg's too cheap and won't let me. Did you hear that? Greg won't let me. Ashley feels restricted. And that's a recipe for resentment. But I'm not sure I buy it.

Sometimes feelings do not accurately reflect reality. What confuses me is why they both want to cut back on their spending. You've heard of the phrase comparing yourself to the Joneses? You are comparing yourself to the Joneses only to spend less. Neither of you actually seem to believe that you can cut that down. We're not going to start eating sick meat. Like we're not going to sacrifice quality.

That's what gets you cheap, cheaper food. Yeah, that's so that's not what we're willing to do. That's important to us. So so I'm just a little confused here because if you want to cut back on this cost, you can. But you are clearly unwilling to shop at cheaper places. You're shopping at literally the most expensive places, farmers markets direct from farmers. You're buying fruit and meat directly.

And these are expensive foods. And then you're buying the best of the best. Let's get real. If you want to cut your spending down by half on food, it's very easy. You're just going to go shop at Safeway. Really simple. Do you guys think you could do that if you had to? If we lost our jobs or something, we wouldn't have a choice. But with our incomes, I'm not willing to sacrifice equality. Okay. I love hearing you say that. Greg, do you agree with that?

Yep. Then why do you both torture yourselves at how much it costs? Because I feel bad spending so much money on food. I come from like a scarcity mindset because growing up, my mom didn't have a lot of money and she was always shopping like canned foods and shake and bake and stuff. So that's, I feel like if she could spend so little, I should too. Ding, ding, ding. We're onto something here.

Anytime someone is able to connect their childhood messages that they received with today's spending behavior, well, you know you're onto something. These are what I call invisible scripts. They are beliefs we have that are held so deeply that we don't even realize they're there. They are effectively invisible beliefs to us. And these invisible scripts guide our lives. Let's keep listening and see what else we can find out here. How much did your mom make growing up?

Oh, like nothing. I don't even know. How much do you make per year? Like $90,000. So let me ask the question that we're all wondering. Do you think you should live differently than your mom if you make $90,000 a year? I don't know. I think I should save more money. Let me try to ask that question again. Do you think you should live differently than your mom if you make $90,000 a year? Yes. How? How?

Because I have more money to spend. So how would you live differently than your mom if you had a blank slate? What do you really want to do in life? So prioritize where you want to spend your money. It sounds so logical coming from you. Why is that? I don't, I guess that's what we do now. It just, we just feel like we should save so much. Why do you say we really should cut down and we've tried to cut it down? What's the truth?

I guess we can, we just choose not to. Yeah. Have you both ever looked each other in the eye and said, we shouldn't try to spend less on this. It's important to both of us. No. A lot of times when people hear the phrase, I will teach you to be rich. They think it's simply about how to make more money. Yes, of course, I can show you how to make a lot more money. We do that on our website and in our programs. But there's a reason it's called, I will teach you to be rich.

A rich life is about more than accumulating money. So many people build the skills of getting wealthy, but they never build the skills of knowing how to actually spend that money. In other words, everyone talks about how to save, but very, very few teach how to spend it. I don't think there's any glory in that.

in continuing to use the same strategies that worked for you at 21 when you didn't have any money and you needed to save as to when you've been very fortunate, very lucky, very successful. In fact, I consider it a tragedy to live a smaller life than you have to. So I want to turn this around for Greg and Ashley. And I think I'm going to have to do a little bit of work on altering their perspective of money and spending.

You know how many people's conscious spending plans I see every week? What's fascinating is the categories of spending, especially the ones where people spend way more than they think they do. For example, subscriptions. Let's take a look at some recent numbers on how much people spend on subscriptions. $100 a month on subscriptions. $205 a month. That's from someone spending 76% of their take home each month on fixed costs.

costs, $211 a month, $147 a month, and $487 a month. This is literally thousands of dollars a year, and most of us have forgotten about all the subscriptions we are actually paying for.

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My team and I create tons of material every single day. Scripts, voiceovers, emails, all kinds of material that we need to be good and we need it to happen fast. And one of the things we use is Grammarly, especially their new AI tool. For example, every Saturday, we send out my podcast newsletter. I break down an anonymous person's conscious spending plan. And I like going really deep to break down the numbers and show you things you might have missed in your own finances.

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Save time with one click and go from editing drafts in hours to seconds. Get AI writing support that works where you work. Sign up and download for free at grammarly.com slash podcast. That's G-R-A-M-M-A-R-L-Y dot com slash podcast. Easier said, done. I think we just have to accept that that's what it costs to live.

with our food diet requirements the way it is today. Yes, that's good. I agree with that. But the way you talk about it is really puzzling to me. Oh, we have to accept that we only get to eat grass-fed meat and farm-market fresh produce. Oh, my life is so horrible. It's our restriction, guys. Let's try it another way, Greg. Yeah. Rephrase it for us. Say it to your wife.

We have set a priority on the quality of food, the importance of health in our diets and our day-to-day. And given how important it is, we are committing to invest in ourselves and spend what we spend on our monthly food budget. Part of a rich life is getting crystal clear on where you want to spend your money. Ashley and Greg know what they value, but you can hear it in the language that they use. They feel guilty about it.

So what I just did there was to get them to totally reframe how they think about spending money. I want to take them from playing defense to playing offense. Try it for yourself. If you want to buy a thousand dollar coat and you can afford it, great. If you want front row tickets to a Cher concert or you want to go to a Star Wars land at Disneyland, great.

My dream for every one of you is to design your rich life and then live it. No apologies, no guilt. So let's talk a little bit about where these money beliefs come from. I have to tell you that I can't fix cheap. I can fix a lot of money problems. I can help people with a lot of money opportunities, but I cannot fix cheap. Cheap is deep-rooted.

It's really psychological. And most of all, cheap people don't really believe they have a problem. So they will not do anything to change. Do you think you're cheap? To an extent. I don't think I'm as bad as Greg. That's the second time I've noticed you deflected to Greg. Let's stay on you.

I don't think I'm that cheap. Like to an extent, it depends if I place value on something and I'll spend money on it. Like I'm happy to spend $600 on a hotel, but I'm not going to spend $20 on a cheap t-shirt. Greg, are you cheap? I just don't put a lot of value on material things. But he doesn't want to even buy a winter coat. And we live in Canada. No, I don't want to buy a $1,000 winter coat, which is stupid.

when there is much more affordable option. I don't need to be the out in with the crowd with a thousand or $1,200 jacket. Did you catch what Greg just did? This is a really common technique that people use to justify not spending money on anything, especially people who are cheap. What they'll do is they'll instantly jump to an example that seems highly expensive or frivolous to escape the real question.

Listen to how Greg does it. I don't need to buy a thousand dollar jacket. Now, I know in polite conversation, most people would drop it right there, but they came on my show. I hear you, Greg. Not everybody wants a jacket of a certain brand or style or cost. I hear you on that. But there are lots of other things to spend money on besides material goods. Do you ever think about those?

Yeah, like we spend money on experiences. We budget all of our expenses for the year in advance, meaning we have a restaurant budget for the year. Problems begins, I think, is that we say at the beginning of the year, hey, last year we spent $3,000 on going out to dinner. This year we're going to budget $3,000. And so like we're in these boxes out of the gate.

that we feel like we need to stay within that box and stick to that spending that we've set out for ourselves. Otherwise, we overspend by the end of the year. So let's talk a little bit about what are some of the ramifications. Would your family say that you are cheap? Yes. Yeah. What about friends? Yes. Some. I don't think all of them. You want to know something? You're cheap. If your friends and family would say it,

You are cheap. But like they say it and then they're like, oh, we wish we were had as much money saved and had such a good financial position with you. So I have friends who like to buy Louis Vuitton purses every three months and I would never do that. I just go to the store with them.

Ashley has her own defensive strategy against being called cheap. In this case, she's pulled out the old technique of picking something really expensive, like say a $1,200 jacket or a Louis Vuitton purse, and then she's thrown in some moral superiority. Yeah, they say it, but then they wish they had as much money saved as we do. The fascinating thing about these techniques is they're not even aware that they're using them. Listen,

I'm different from them. And that makes you feel what? Smarter with my money. Notice that you conflated being cheap with being good with your money.

Do you think that there's a way to be good with money without being cheap? I don't know, because if we weren't this cheap, we would have never saved this much or had this much money to invest. And we wouldn't be in our financial situation where we can retire at 50. You only have so much money. Either you save it or you spend it. What are some of the things that have caused your friends to joke about you being cheap or even call you cheap?

We don't really have furniture. We don't have $1,000 recliner chairs and loads of Knicks snacks in our house to decorate the house. So friends might come over after having lived here for five years and the house looks the same as it did five years ago because we don't just go spend $1,800 on a rug and $1,200 on a coffee table. Again, they use expensive items like an $1,800 rug to justify being called cheap.

What if it was just a hundred dollar rug? They're setting the bar super high and then using that bar to justify being cheap. And they do it all the time. My brother wanted to buy a $1,200 or $1,500 snowblower for my parents. We don't budget $750 for us to split a $1,500 snowblower. That's an unexpected cost.

that we haven't budgeted for. We don't have that much just sitting around. So the perception is that you're cheap because you can't afford to contribute to this gift. And people make comments like, oh, you guys can go out and spend $20,000 a year on vacations, but you don't want to go out for dinner and stuff. But that's what we choose to do. There's been people who have planned a bachelorette party and expected everyone to contribute $600.

without even having discussed it with anyone. Once again, we didn't have $600 budgeted for a two-night stay somewhere that was fancy, that someone else had full control and spoken for everyone's financial position without reaching out first to say, is everyone okay with spending this much? There's one couple that she always picked very expensive restaurants and I've always had to ask her not to. So now she just doesn't make plans with us anymore.

And does it concern you or no? I'm not like, I don't know if I really care to hang out with them, but it's, you really need to go and spend $400 on dinner. You can't spend like 150 and still have a good time. There's that defense game again.

But that's all this is, a defense mechanism. These aren't really genuine answers that solve the problem we're talking about. You two are the ones who called me, not your friends. My friends call me cheap, but I'm not upset about that because I think my friends are at break with their money. You guys have very good answers for everything. There's only one problem.

You are still cheap. Have you noticed it? You have answers for everything. Are you cheap? No, I actually prefer spending on this and that and I pay for value. Do your friends and family call you cheap? Yes, they do. Why? It's because they want me to buy a new $10,000 furniture all the time and they expect me to fly to Vegas and do all this. You have great reasons. All those things are totally true. Could you cut back on your spending on food if you really needed to? No, we prioritize health.

And then finally, well, we've built our entire lives around this one moment at 52. But actually, we don't want to retire. And Greg, I know Greg's not going to want to retire because there's no way he'll give up the income. And he has the only goal in life right now is prioritizing towards a goal. Like you can't say I'm cheap when I spend $20,000 on vacations a year or that I spent $24,000 on groceries. That's fair. That's a really fair comment. What I don't love is...

The hyper focus on cost for everything else. Greg, you make $270,000 a year and you drive to different stores to find cheaper blueberries. I'm not, listen, I'm not going out of my, I didn't say those things. My wife said those things. Am I jumping in a car and going out of my way? No. If I, am I, I don't know why you're shaking your head. No, it's not true.

So does it bug you, Ashley? Or is it funny? What is it? Oh, it bothers me. Like, it's annoying. How much money do you make an hour? And how much time are you spending trying to save $2? Does it make sense? And it's annoying when we go up for dinner. You're like, I want this thing, but I'm going to get this thing because $5 is different. And $150 bill, who cares? He's cheap.

Like his comments are annoying too. When you're at a restaurant, you'll make these comments that annoys Ashley. And so that does generate an argument. So what do you get out of that? Out of the comments I make the restaurant? Yes, where you say, I want this, but I'm going to get this because it's cheaper. What does it get you? Saves me a few bucks. Mm-hmm.

What I'm doing here is I'm really looking for Greg to go beyond the obvious answer. See, most of us get something out of our behavior, even if it's not obvious. For example, if we complain about how tired we are, we get attention and sympathy from the people around us. So we keep doing it. Now, when you point this out to people, it's a really hard concept to acknowledge because deep down, most of us believe we are logical and rational.

And so it can seem dumb or even scary that we might not be consciously aware of our behavior. Listen to Greg trying to grapple with this. When you say that out loud, what does it do for you? It doesn't do anything. Well, it does something. Otherwise, you wouldn't do it. We do things because it rewards us. Ashley eats tahini because it tastes good and it makes her happy.

You drive around town because you get something out of saving money. As you've just told us, it allows you to avoid the next argument about being overspent on groceries. Fine. I accept that. But I don't understand when you're at a restaurant and it's one thing if you want the steak, but you say, I'm going to get the chicken because it's cheaper to yourself. But you say it out loud. What does it get for you?

I don't think I say it out loud. I might mention it after like the restaurant. Like I also know what it costs, like a meal cost. Am I going to go to a restaurant and spend $24 on a salad? Like it is beyond ridiculous what the markup on a salad is. I don't need a lecture on food costs. Just tell me what it gets you. I wouldn't sit at a dinner and say, oh, I'm not going to get this openly in front of her.

I might just get the other option. Exactly as you said, in my head, I'll say this is a better choice for me for a variety of reasons. I'm not, I can assure you, I'm not sitting at a dinner and dining room table saying, let me see how I can save $3 today just to get a reaction out of her. Like I'm absolutely certain it doesn't happen. Interesting. So why do you think Ashley disagrees? Here's where it may be it's,

there's a difference. If we're going to go out and get an afternoon meal, like a quick lunch, and she's going to go and get a $20 meal because that's what it costs to sit down for lunch, I might sit there and say, do I really want to spend $18 on a burger with cheese and mushrooms, or am I going to be happy with a burger at $14 that doesn't have the fixings? So that's a more realistic example of it. I

I've never been in a situation where we go out to dinner and I say, I can't believe that was $120 for two and a half hours of entertainment. Yeah, there's been situations where I like to go out for brunch and he's like, why are we going to spend $50 on brunch and we can go out for dinner instead? I don't understand what the point of spending money on this is. Even though I like the act of going out for brunch, I don't even want to ask him because he's going to make comments. So I just rather not.

I believe him. It sounds like Greg is telling the truth. He never made those comments out loud because he never had to. Ashley predicted them and responded before they actually ever happened. What do you think the cost of all of this is? I'm not talking about the financial cost, but the fact that Ashley does not want to bring certain things up with you because of how she believes you will react. What do you think the cost of that is?

Yeah, it's discontent and there's a feel like we probably are against each other if that's the feeling. And what happens after 20 years of that? We don't get to retire together. Yeah, exactly. That's really savvy of you to say. I think I speak to a lot of couples and many of them call me and they have problems. And when I ask them about it, they minimize it.

They actually come on here and I say, tell me about it. And they go, it's actually not that big of a deal. And then they proceed to tell me some minor little thing. And I say, what do you think happens after 20 years of that? And it strikes them, oh my God, this is exactly what people mean when they say, we got divorced because of money. It's not some big financial infidelity thing in most cases. It's something that started in their 30s.

Just a little habit, a little phrase that one or two of them used, a different way of looking at the world with money, a different way of ordering your meal, and it compounds. And suddenly, Greg, you're doing your thing. You have your values, the way you look at the world, your worldview. Ashley has hers, and they diverge one degree by one degree. And as your income goes up, they diverge more and more. And the only clue you have about it is...

The small little fights. What do you think Ashley is responding to when you don't order the wine or you don't order a certain X, Y, Z? Her preconceived notion that I'm not doing it to save money. Yeah. And I would say there's probably some cause for her to believe that.

Because you have brought money up many times, you drive around town, it's like a thing. But what do you think she is feeling uncomfortable about? She's feeling uncomfortable that if she spends it, I'll be judging. I think that's probably true. Why don't you ask her? Why are you uncomfortable about me not wanting to participate in all the...

Because I think you don't even want to be there because it's costing you money and you'd rather just be at home. But the whole point is to spend time together. That's what I told you before. It's not about the food. How are you feeling right now, Greg? Disappointed that this was that important to her and we didn't go. Nice. All right, this is a really important moment.

We hear Greg acknowledging that he's disappointed because he cares about Ashley and he understands how his behavior has unintentionally upset her. You know, this is a huge clue to the success of their relationship. Oftentimes in these conversations, I'm looking for clues as to what's going on with the financial question, but you can just as well hear the clues about the strength of their relationship. And this is a really positive one.

One of the worst feelings in life is feeling stuck.

You hear it sometimes with podcast couples here. They feel stuck around their money. I felt stuck in my business. I had made a bunch of decisions years ago and I woke up feeling trapped. So after thinking about it, feeling stuck, not sure what to do, I went to a CEO council that I'm a part of and I just laid it out. And after listening to me, they were like, oh, it's so obvious. You need to change this, move this person over here, change this resource allocation. Boom.

I wish I had done it years earlier. If you feel stuck in your career and you also wish you had a group of peers who could help you get unstuck,

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If we went for brunch, what would that experience mean to you? That we get to connect on a deeper level and day-to-day just talking in the kitchen. It would make me feel closer to you. What can I do to replicate that experience for you, whether it's on brunch or elsewhere? When I ask you to go out and do things, don't be like, no, because it's this much money and I'd rather do this with this money.

If I'm asking you to do something, it's because I want to do it. It's not just something to do, to spend time together. Ask her again. Greg, you asked a great question. She was a little irritated in her answer, but you really want to know the answer to your question. So say, I totally understand that. I hope you don't mind if I ask you again, because I really want to know what's on your mind. And then ask her again. Part you said, if you don't mind. I'm irritated. Okay.

What can I do to make sure that you get that brunch experience? Or what can I do for you to replicate those feelings that you get during? Like go out more or like when I asked you to plan dates so we can spend time together.

So when I ask you to go out, I don't want you to say no, I don't want to because of money or whatever. Ashley, tell him what you do want. Avoid telling him what you don't want. He's looking for guidance, so help him. I want you to say yes when I ask you to go out and I want you to ask me to go out sometimes. And I want to spend time together outside of the house.

And I want you to be okay with spending more money and doing things together. Greg, don't feel pressured into it just because she's saying that's what she wants. Now, if you agree or disagree, talk about it. This is your opportunity both to negotiate these things. Go ahead. Money is not an issue when we go out for restaurants because it's part of the same going out restaurant budget. But how come sometimes for your birthday, I plan to do stuff for you and then you tell me to cancel it all because you don't want to spend money?

And why do you return all my gifts that I buy you? Because you don't want me to spend money. I don't like the gifts. Wait, wait, wait. Hold on a second. Ashley just dropped a major bombshell and Greg just swatted it away. Did he not catch what just happened? Greg, how do you think she just took what you said to her?

I'm difficult to buy for because I don't have a lot of needs. Not interested in that. How do you think she... She feels hurt that I don't accept her gifts. When somebody gives you a gift, especially your wife, what is another approach you might be able to take? Quite honestly, it's probably just explaining that there's something else that I had my heart set on or something else I had my eye on. And if we don't mind switching it for that instead. That's definitely one option. That is code for...

That's one of the worst possible answers on earth. Give me another option. Tell her I love her. I don't even bother putting effort into getting you gifts anymore because you're going to return anyway. Rick, do you see what's going on here? This is the beginning of checking out. It's not just brunch. It's not just travel. It's not just gifts. Did you hear what she just said? Say it back to us.

I don't put effort into buying you gifts anymore because I know you're just going to return it. Greg, you both have some real serious things here. They're really underneath the surface. And every individual item to you, whether it's the drinks or the grass-fed beef or the blueberries or any of the examples we've talked about, you all, you have an individual reason for everything. But Ashley, when you said you've created an environment

To me, that is as level 10 red alert as it gets. That is really dangerous. A negative environment is toxic. It causes people to check out. It causes people to just stop caring. And once that happens, you cannot get them back. Do you two want to ask each other anything or share how you're feeling? No. Okay. That's fair enough.

Okay. They have some work to do on their communication, but I want to shift gears here for a second because I don't want to lose sight of the bigger picture. What are they actually going to do with all this money they're saving? Keep in mind that between them, they have an annual income of $270,000 and a net worth of over a million bucks. Greg, what do you think you're going to spend on when you retire? Golf club membership.

Okay. $25,000 a year. What else? Oh, no. I found a much cheaper option. Bro. I can't believe it. After everything we've been talking about today, the first example was a cheaper option. Why? I want to go to luxury resorts and fly first class.

The biggest question mark is how are we going to travel and how do we spend money on travel? So even if we say six months somewhere, that can very well mean an apartment in a city somewhere across the world at $2,500 a month. We don't need to have a luxury apartment to enjoy what the culture is like.

Wait a second. I thought the whole point of this was to save now so that Greg and Ashley can spend extravagantly in retirement. But now he's telling us, oh, he's not going to spend extravagantly in retirement. He's still going to be looking for deals then when he has millions and millions of dollars. When exactly is he actually planning to spend all this money? Greg, when was the last time that you went to a luxury hotel?

We actually traveled to Europe for a month. And how much did that cost you when you were there? $12,000. And how did you feel about that, Greg? It was budgeted for it, so it was fine. Very interesting. We knew that we wanted to get away from work. It was our first trip in a year. You don't want to go to Italy and cook in your own house. You want to go gnocchi in the restaurant. So when you make the decision to eat out every single meal and get comfortable accommodations,

You just, you're okay with the bill being what it is. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Well, as long as... Ashley, was that your experience too?

No, I was going to say that Greg tells me that's ridiculous that I want to spend that much on vacations every year. To me, I feel like it's justified because I sacrifice other things in my life to have those. I don't get my hair done or my nails done. I don't buy a lot of clothes. I don't go out ever because I want to save to go on trips. So the trips after food is our biggest expense and the trips becomes a contentious topic sometimes because...

I don't need the highest end butler service accommodations when I go on vacation. But we don't spend that. We've spent $20,000 before. I know, but that like for to go to for a honeymoon and we stayed in luxury places. That's it. First of all, I'm a hotel guy, so I need to know which hotel we're talking about here. Where'd you go on your honeymoon? We went to Bali and we stayed at the Chedi. Beautiful.

All right. I got to tell you guys, I don't care. We could be talking about you becoming an orphan. But if you mentioned that you stayed at a certain luxury hotel, I'm going to stop that conversation. Hold on a second. Which suite did you stay in? How'd you like it? What type of food? Did you order off menu? Did you talk to the chef? Did you take a tour with the general manager? What can I say? I love these hotels. I got to know the details. I'm sorry, guys. We are in Poland, so it's much cheaper. So we went to this like a spa hotel and like

be there. So it was only $600 a night, but it was like a lot of bankers, but because of their currency, I wanted to see what Greg and Ashley actually need to save in order to hit their financial goals and how it compares to their lifestyle. Their plan is to retire at 52. So I crunched the numbers for them. So you're on track to do about that. It looks like you are going to end up with around 4 million bucks. When you think about those numbers, how do you feel?

Right. If I'm making a quarter million dollars at 51 or 52, am I walking away from another year of quarter million dollars? The question mark will be, am I going to be prepared to walk away from whatever level, whatever job I have at that age?

and just forego that income. I think that's going to be a tougher part that we're going to have to navigate, which could also result in some issues. I already know the answer to that. So do you. Exactly. Yeah. What is it? All he talks about is retiring, but then I'm like, you're not going to walk away from that income once you get there. So why do you guys put 52 retirement? You don't want to retire at 52.

But we have, so we call it financial freedom. Like we have the option. If we don't want to, if I, neither of us wants to go to work anymore and we've had enough. Financially speaking, Ashley and Greg are both well ahead of most people I speak to. They're aligned on their financial goals. They're high earners. They've got a great amount saved up. But what's interesting is that this conflict stems from their self-imposed annual budget, which is restricting their spending.

In other words, they're prisoners of their own creation. Now, the solution seems obvious to you and me. We both know that they don't need to be saving so much money, but it's one thing to quote, know what needs to be done. It's a whole nother thing to make those changes in your own life. Let's see if I can convince them to cut themselves a little bit of slack here. You ever feel like you're making money, but you don't know where it all goes?

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You guys are already going to have $4 million. And a few years after that, you'll have $10 million. So these arguments that you're having, first of all, they're really over small amounts of money. We're not talking about 80 grand. We're talking about $5, $50. But the second part of that is that they're actually not about money at all. It's not a math problem. This is a deep psychology problem. You don't

have the skills of spending money. You've never developed them. Ashley, we talked about your mom. Greg, we didn't get a chance to get into your family, but would you agree that there's probably, is there something in your past where similar to Ashley, there were maybe financial irregularities or people who didn't spend a lot of money? Yeah. Yeah. He grew up pretty poor. Yeah.

Earlier, I mentioned that we start forming our money habits in childhood. You know, I think it's time to hear Greg's story. I'm Eastern European. My going out would be on the drive camping. We'd stop at KFC once a year. Whereas now that the needs of my partner are to go out multiple times a month, which is very different than my whole upbringing.

Like that one KFC brought me joy, but I don't think I can replicate that joy by going out on a regular basis. So like the fact that we go when we go and we make it feel special to us brings me back to that time when we popped into KFC, but I don't know if I'm going to have that same satisfaction and joy and love if I go out four or five times a month. Yeah. Everybody talks about the hedonic treadmill and the, um,

advice that everybody in the financial world gives you is the hedonic treadmill will force you to have diminishing returns on your enjoyment, which is true, but then they go one step further. They go, therefore, don't do anything a lot because you're never going to enjoy it. I think, Greg, your mind is telling you, hey, I got a lot of joy out of going out once a year, so therefore,

because I'm a human and humans love to be consistent, I should get the same amount of joy doing it now. And if I need to go out more, then there's something wrong with me. I've actually become one of those frivolous spenders. But I'll give you a different perspective. I want to acknowledge that you're not going to get the same joy today, even going to a $200 restaurant that you got from that $5 KFC meal. It's not going to happen.

Things are different. You were also getting a lot of joy, not because of the chicken, although KFC is pretty good. Who were you with? My family. Yeah. So whether it's $5 or $500, you were with people you love. And what you've done is you've let the dollar amount become the most important part of that story. The real answer is the people you were with. So you have the chance to do that now. Yeah, it's going to be a little bit more expensive.

In fact, it's going to be a lot more expensive. But do you think 15-year-old you would ever imagine that you'd be making this kind of money? No. Exactly. Without any specific goals for the next 15 to 20 years, I predict you'll accumulate a tremendous amount of money. I don't think you truly understand the costs if you add up all the collective decisions you've made. On your income, you've saved how much per year?

With everything you do to save on wine and blueberries and this particular brunch, whatever. How much does it save you per year? Not much. How much? Give me a number. $5,000. It's more than $5,000. I can tell you that right now. $10,000. Good. Maybe you're saving $5,000 to $10,000 per year.

How do you feel about that? Now that I'm older, I feel like it's not worth it. When I was 20, that was more like a significant number. Let's first start out with what your worldview on the world has cost you. How could you figure that out? I don't just mean financially. How many fewer people are calling you to go out? Yeah. What else?

How many times we fought over money? There you go. How many memories we've lost with our families? Keep going. What else? How many times we haven't connected because we don't go out? We just watch it in front of TV. There's a lot more important things than money. Greg, what about for you? It becomes eye-opening and very evident that we've missed out on these memories and experiences. Or what can be $5,000 to $10,000 a year in expenses.

If it were someone making $25,000 a year, I'd be having a very different discussion with them. You two are professionally very successful. I won't go so far as to say you're financially successful. You saved a lot of money, but being successful with money is about more than math. What I would argue you failed at is to prioritize everything else. You became tunnel vision focused on numbers. And that's not a rich life. That's just a lot of money.

I agree. What do you want to do about it? I don't want to save as much. I want to start living for today and not for tomorrow. What about you, Gray? Like you said, I think we just have to look at the things that we feel that we're missing out on. These sandboxes we've created for ourselves, being able to expand those so that we can feel, at least in the interim, until we learn how to spend, how we can feel better about

having a budget for these experiences, having the allocated funds. You won. You're done. You've already invested a tremendous amount and you're investing $70,000 plus per year. So it's not that you are choosing today over tomorrow. Tomorrow's done. You got it. Locked it in. Well done. All right. So things are going to come up that you did not budget for. And both of you have one reaction. Panic.

I feel like we have a slush account. We do not. I like where you're going, Greg. How much should that slush account have in it? $1,200. Greg! No! I thought we had this. $1,200. If you cover the other buckets, why would you have another large slush bucket? Greg, stop thinking like you're still poor.

You make $270,000 a year. The unexpected things that come up for you are more expensive than for somebody who has low income. There's no nobility in continuing to act like your report. It's actually offensive. So Greg, how much should be in that slush fund? $5,000. Good. $5,000 now and three years from now, how much do you think it should be in there? $7,000.

Okay, that's good, at least directionally. Ashley, what about you? 10. Okay, fine. That's great. That's perfectly fine. If it were me, I would have said 15,000. Because I want you to start thinking bigger. I think they both get it. Let's hear how they're feeling. I'm excited that we're going to get some freedom with this because this is what I wanted for a long time and I'm glad that we're on the same page. It's going to be hard, I think. I'm very optimistic because...

We've been bound by these very strict rules and I think we've both opened up to the understanding that we can afford more now. We can allocate more to ourselves, to our well-being, to our mental health, and to our marriage. And it's just a matter of being able to start putting that into action. That's awesome. I really love that. I love hearing you acknowledge each other. You feel confident, Ashley? Yeah, I'm excited. I am too.

My greatest joy will be to hear from you both in six to 12 months. What are you going to tell me? We're going to tell you about the hotel we went to and how much we enjoyed it. There you go. What are you going to enjoy at that hotel? We're going to go treat ourselves. It is the new version, Greg, of your KFC is seeing your wife smiling because you've created abundance in this relationship. And Ashley, for you,

It's the joy of watching Greg opening up financially. And so when you're both at this beautiful resort and you're eating this great food and you look at him and you see him smiling and you're smiling, that's a great moment for both of you to appreciate each other.

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Even though you're living month to month, you've managed to accumulate six figures in savings. That's no joke. And yet you are, words that I heard today, obsessing. You're talking about like $10 expenses, but you have over $200,000 in savings, both independently and jointly.

Do you know how much your money right now turns into by the time you're 65? If you just keep contributing the same amount, any idea how much it turns into? No. Take a guess. Five million. That's a good guess. 3.6 million.