I Choose...Ricki Lake
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You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garth.

Hi, everyone. Welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about the choices we make and where they lead us. My guest today is known for being an actress in cult classic movies like Hairspray and Crybaby. She was a successful talk show host for many years, and now she's creating documentary films about things she is passionate about, from natural birth to marijuana to birth control. She's the host of her own podcast,

The High Life. This is part one of our conversation. Please welcome the incomparable Rikki Lake to the I Choose Me podcast. We've never met. Well, we've met, but like little brief encounters. It doesn't really count, but yes. And I feel like I know you. Same, same. Okay, good, good. I love to hear about...

where people come from and why they are the way they are. So if I could, I would love to just explore your childhood a little bit because our childhoods have such a huge impact on who we are and like the rest of our lives. So can you take me back to your beginnings a little bit? Like what kind of a household did you grow up in? Yeah, so I am from Westchester County, New York. Officially, I was raised in Hastings-on-Hudson, which is like 25 minutes outside of the city.

And I was a pretty normal kid. I had a lot of personality.

And I had two parents that stayed married for 43 years. So my childhood, I was in a home that had its own dysfunction for sure. It's just my sister and me. We're 14 months apart. I'm the older sibling. I love to perform. I'm a little bit older than you. I'm 55, soon to be 56. And I grew up watching Little House on the Prairie. And in fact, I changed my name to Laura Ingalls when I was in like kindergarten or first grade. Like I was obsessed with Melissa Gilbert.

Oh, my God. Which, you know, your co-star Shannon Doherty had one of her starts on that show. I was like, I saw two. And I saw Annie when I was six years old. I went to the, saw the original Broadway cast and my grandma, Sylvia, who you asked, you know, how am I the way I am or how did I become who I am? So much of it was having my grandma, Sylvia, as my role model, as the matriarch of our family. She died when I was nine, but she was the one who,

that growing up just out of New York, I went and saw Broadway. I went to see opera. I went to see the ballet. And so all of that culture, you know, I remember seeing Annie and I point and I was like, I want to be her. Did you ever do Annie? No. Were you a singer? Did you sing? No. Okay. I wanted to be a singer and I just...

Like, I just saw that and I was like, that's what I want to be. And my mother, she did the best she could, but her, her, she rejected me and the idea of that before anyone else had the chance to. She told me that I wasn't the starving orphan type anymore.

And basically encouraged me never to pursue that. So she didn't cast you. She didn't bring me to the audition. She didn't. And, you know, and I understand why now. But at the time it was, you know, it was the ultimate like slap in the face. And I studied singing. I studied dancing. I went through high school and got really lucky at 18 to have hear about the audition for a character, Tracy Turnblad, in the first Hairspray. And so it literally changed everything.

my entire trajectory. I'd never been around openly gay people. I was very sort of sheltered and green and naive and young. So yeah, to say that like my world just completely exploded after that and move my, I got to move to LA at 19. I visited you on the, not you, but on the set of Beverly Hills 90210 because the guy who played my boyfriend, Link Larkin, Michael St. Gerard. Oh,

He was on, he had an arc on 90210 and I came and watched you guys work and was totally starstruck. Oh my God. I wish I had known that that was happening. I could have said hello. Yeah. It's like one of those, you know, you have these, these memories. I don't have a lot of memories because I'm old now and I took a lot of Ambien back in the day, but I do remember that set. And I met Ali Adler, who was a writer on your show at that time. Yeah.

And just, it was a classroom scene. And I just like, I just, I felt really young. I was probably 19 years old and I just was like so starstruck. And it just, yeah, it was a really, really fun experience seeing you guys work. That's a good story. Thank God for your grandma, by the way. Yes. Because otherwise your talents may have never come to the surface. And you, you know, like you have such a gift and,

Who knows if it would have happened? Yeah, what she gave me was like a belief in myself that you can do anything. I mean, she told me, she's like, you are the best. You're the smartest. You're the prettiest. You're the most talented. And, you know, clearly I wasn't, but I believed it in her eyes. And so that just like...

Just, yeah, it was just that memory, that muscle memory of like, she thinks I can do this. And that's been really like, like a, like a through line of my entire career because who thought I could be a talk show host? I was 23 when they, they offered me that job. I mean, I just, I, I was like, okay, they think I could do it. So, all right, I'm going to do it. Where did that come from? Like, wait, I'm skipping ahead, but I really didn't know where did that come from?

My friends that have known me for a very long time that I don't have a doubt gene. Like I don't, I don't doubt myself. And that's kind of true where I just like sort of jump feet first. I'm very impulsive. I'm extremely impulsive. I act many times before I have a chance to really think things through. But if you look at my life and the choices I've made, it's mostly worked out. Like my, my instincts are usually right. Um,

And I, yeah, I love that about myself. Like, I'm just one of those people, like, I get an idea, I get a bug up my ass, and I just go for it. And yeah, it's worked out pretty well. Similar. I, too, am impulsive. And I have made choices very quickly in my life. And somehow they've worked out. Even if they didn't work out, they worked out.

Give me an example. What's an example that comes to mind? Okay. Well, having a baby when I was 21, 22, 23 in that era, that was impulsive and crazy because I was so young. Yeah. I was 28 when I had my first. So-

It's still very young considering like all my friends, they're having kids much. I have my friend, my friend, Rachel Harris is my age and she has a five-year-old and a seven-year-old. Okay. And I have a 27-year-old and a 23-year-old. I can't even imagine trading places like Freaky Fridaying with her. That would be crazy. But yeah, I had my kids pretty young, but yeah. I mean, so yeah, so 21. So how old are your kids? 27, 21 and 18. Okay.

So the 27, you were pregnant when I was, was your daughter, I think you have three girls, I have two boys. Your oldest daughter was born in 97? Mine too. How's she doing? She's launched? She's awesome. Is she the one you have the clothing line with? No, she, this is the one that lives in New York on doing her thing. Yeah, mine lives in New York too. Waiting for her to come back. You are? See, I'm okay if they never come back. I mean, I want them to visit.

I love them visiting. I'm so glad they have their own lives. I'm an empty nester. I was one of those parents that when I dropped my son off at school, and I love my children, and I love that I'm a mom, and it's my favorite role of my life is being their mom. But when I dropped him off at college, I peeled out of that driveway. I couldn't get out of there fast enough and like, okay, one down, one to go, you know? Oh.

Oh, I love your honesty. It's true. And you know, your whole thing is about choosing you. Yeah, I feel like this time in my life is like all about like I choosing myself and choosing this relationship with my new husband. I am playing more than I've played in a really long time. It just feels like my 50s is like,

the brightest time of my life is right now. It's like reaping the fruits of my labor. Like I've worked really hard. I've done the right thing for so long. I've made the sacrifices for everyone around me. I've shown up for work. I've delivered everything.

And now I kind of, I don't want to say I'm coasting, but I'm certainly coasting way more than I ever have from the rest of my life, for sure. It feels good. I can feel it through this TV screen. I'm so happy for you being happy. It's good. It's really good. Oh my God, we have so many parallels. There's so, so many. We both got started in the industry when we were pretty young. How old were you? About the same age as you. I was like 16, 17. Had very, you know, great...

childhood, idyllic. I feel like I can really relate to you. And I want to know when you were growing up in the public eye of celebrity-ism, what did you think of all of it? How

How did it feel to you? Well, so I was 18. So if you were 16, you were a minor. I was not a minor. When I got a hairspray, I was, I was, I was just a freshman in college. And I, you know, so I was an adult quote unquote, but it's definitely not like mature in any way. And I didn't know anything different. Like it's just, it was just my experience. And also like my start was with John Waters and this very specific type of experience. So it was very, felt like camp more than it felt like a job. You know, I was working really hard, but it was super fun and playful. And,

And I got famous. So I've told this story before, but I'll share with you. John Waters sat me down after we finished making Hairspray. So, you know, again, I'm 18. We just had the summer of my life. The movie, you know, you wrap the movie, but then it takes months for it to come out. And he sat me down after the making of the film and he said, I want...

to give you some advice. He's like, I have three, I want you to remember these three things. Always stay humble, always stay true to yourself. And if you're going to read and believe the good things people write about you, you're going to have to read and believe the bad. Basically keep it all in check, keep it all in perspective. And I feel like that advice, that talking to and the mentoring he's given me over the years has managed to help me stay really pretty grounded and very normal, you know? And so, yes, it was weird becoming famous and

making a lot of money and people knowing my name. I mean, I loved it. It's what I wanted. It's what I dreamed of when I saw Annie at six, you know? So like, here I am, like my dream has come true. And it, it

It was ultimately like really positive. Like there was nothing, you know, it was only when my career stopped, you know, when I was about 22, 21, 22, and I didn't get this big part that I wanted. I was really devastated. It was a movie called Dogfight. It's a movie that probably no one really remembers, but it was with River Phoenix.

And Lily Taylor got the part, but it was like something I really, really wanted and it didn't happen for me. And then I couldn't get arrested. I was on China beach and I didn't get picked up on my option. You know, the whole thing that things happen in this business. And I went from like making all this money to making nothing and had to give up my house. And I was homeless for a short time. I had to move. I mean, it was, but it was the most humbling experience.

that I'm so grateful for. You know, in the end, yes, I lost probably about two or $300,000 in that, you know, that learning experience, but it taught me so much, you know, about the value of a dollar. And, and thankfully I didn't have a family to support at that time. You know, it's just like changed everything. And then I got my talk show. Then I went, oh, I also went on like a crash course

crash crazy diet because I realized that the reason, you know, one of the reasons I wasn't getting parts anymore, I wasn't getting cast in anything is because the novelty of being the fat girl had kind of worn off. And I felt like, okay, the only thing I can control in my life is my physicality and how I take care of myself. So I went on this crash diet, I lost a hundred pounds. And then the talk show came my way and lifted me out of my, uh,

And it changed my life for sure. Two things on that. Okay, so I love those words of wisdom that he gave you. Right? Really good. Thank God for John Waters. Yeah, those are like fatherly. That was necessary guidance. But one of them is a little hard for me. The part where you are supposed to believe in yourself and love and read and believe the things that people write about you, the good things, but also the bad things. Now with...

social media the way it is and everybody having some sort of a platform to say whatever they think, good or bad, do you still believe that reading bad things about yourself is something you should let in? I mean, it's a totally different ballgame now, you know? And for me, like, I'm so glad I don't do a talk show now.

I mean, I do what I do and I choose to do what I'm doing. Like I do my own podcast. I love it. It's like, you know, it's completely something I want to do. But as far as being in a situation where you're having to speak out and be, whether it's political or controversial or whatever,

you know, you can't make everyone happy. And there's this instant reaction from strangers. I mean, it's just a brutal thing that I don't really participate much in. Like all my posting is very positive. It's all about joy. It's all about, you know, like very much what you're about. Yeah. Yeah, I really, I think it's like the devil in a lot of ways. Like we have like made this deal and now with what's coming up with AI, I mean, it is all terrifying. But the difference is at 55%

I know who I am. I love who I am. I am like, I feel like I'm the best me I've ever been. And that comes from life experience. That comes from like, you know, the things I've achieved, the things I've overcome. I mean, I've had like a really beautiful journey and a lot of it's been really hard. I lost my partner, my last partner to mental illness and suicide. And that was

probably the hardest thing I've ever had to, I can't say I've overcome it, but to deal with and learn to live with. But like, yeah, the things people say about me, it doesn't really affect me at this point. And I think that is like, you know, that cliche, when you turn 50, you don't give a shit what other people think about you. It's none of your business what people think about you. And it's kind of true for me. Like I definitely, nothing really gets to me. And

I'm really also lucky that I have a lot of goodwill in this industry. People feel like they know who I am. They like me. They root for me. And so there's really not a lot of negative stuff that comes my way. Right, right. Well, that's because you're just a positive energy person.

And positive attracts positive. Thank you. I think so. I mean, I am really positive and I have a lot to be grateful for. And you've had so much. I think also, too, it's about those hardships that we've endured and that we've lived through and learned so much from that make us so much more full of gratitude and hope and

you know, just a sense of like achievement that you survived something so terrible, you know, you really start to turn to yourself in those moments instead of listening to other people. I think that's really memorable. I mean, I think all of the traumatic things that I've had in my life and I've had my share, you know, we all have stuff we go through, but I think all of it

has in the end been a gift. You know, like I've gotten something out of all of the hardship, you know, from being sexually molested as a small child to like just, you know, living through 9-11. You know, 9-11, I was there on that day downtown, watched the whole thing unfold before my very eyes. And I was a new mom. I had a two-month-old at that time. So that was, you know, deeply, deeply like world life changing everything. But like for me, it got me to kind of

make a decision on where I wanted to go with my career, where I wanted to raise my family. I didn't want to be in New York anymore. I left New York. I left my talk show. I left my marriage. I mean, all of that happened after that experience, watching that unfold. And in the end, it was a gift for me. I started focusing on documentary film work, which is like, it's like my, what I want my legacy to be is like these, these pieces of work that really question why things are the way they are in that case with the birth world, you know? So I,

I sort of found my voice and I found my true passion through living through something so traumatic. Hi, this is Jenny Garth from the I Choose Me podcast. If you're managing a challenging mental condition, weekly therapy can sometimes feel like it's not enough. You may be looking for a way to spend more focus time on you. That's where Amend Mental Health Treatment Center comes in. I recently took a tour at Amend in beautiful Malibu, California, and the facility is so gorgeous and serene.

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knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Get your first month free at greenlight.com slash iHeart. The other thing I wanted to circle back on that you said was the novelty of being the fat girl wore off. How do you think that shaped who you are today? Having to...

Really be fronted and faced with your appearance being connected in a negative way by people. How did that affect your sense of self and your security in yourself all these years? That's a lot. That's a really good question. I mean, ultimately, it was incredible that I was one of the very first. I can't think of another ingenue person.

that was 200 pounds, you know? So it was amazing to like break the mold in that way and to be so well-received. And it was believable watching that movie even today. It's believable that she wins the contest and she gets the guy. Oh my God. Pause. I love that movie so much. I could watch it over. We have watched it a million times in our house, but you shaped us.

- Thank you. It was so fun and it was me. Like I am just like you are, you are, there's a lot of you that's Kelly, right? Come on, right? - Yeah, sure. - Right? Well, at least I want to think that. But I'm very much, I'm Tracy Turnblad trapped in a 55 year old gray haired woman.

It just, it just, I mean, the difference, like I was 200 pounds and adorable when I did that movie, but I was 260 pounds when I did Crybaby three years later, you know, and 260 pounds on a five foot three inch frame. It was a lot and, and it wasn't working anymore. Like I was, you know, would go out on it. I just wasn't getting the parts. And so I was in a desperate place where I was supporting myself and I was running out of money and,

I needed to do something that I could control. And it really was like, when I think back on it, it, you know, it wasn't the healthiest way. I starved myself. I basically didn't stop eating altogether, but I ate very, very, very little. I joined a gym and would ride my bike in the Valley. I live North of victory. If you know where that is like Woodman and victory. And at the time it was whatever 19, what was that? 92, nine, 91, 92 in that area. And I,

And my friends wouldn't come visit me. It was like a very much a Spanish speaking neighborhood. I lived in a pool house. My little house had a sliding glass door. I mean, it was a very humbling time for me. And it was appropriate for someone who is my age, you know, who went from rags to riches and riches to rags. And then I think it was really empowering being able to change my body in the way I did.

It worked. Like I, I was, you know, went from a size 24 to a size 12, you know, in about, in about like six or eight months, like really, really short period of time. And I did it with the sole purpose of A, getting a little bit healthier and B, getting a job, you know, I needed to work. And so the pilot of the talk show came around at that time and,

And it kind of, I think, worked as the narrative or my story of like this relatable girl, this young woman that people root for, like Tracy Turnblad. You know, I'm like this underdog kind of character. And so it wasn't,

in getting a talk. Like I never thought I was going to get a talk show. Who thinks that 20 something that you're going to be picked to do something like that? But it just was like this divine thing that just happened and it just all worked. Did I answer your question? You did. I feel as if it made you believe in yourself even more than you already did. And it made you fight for what you knew was right for you. Yeah. I like that. Is that, yeah? Yeah. I mean, I...

It's so, it's so, I don't spend a lot of time like thinking back of like, like who I was back then, you know, and like why I did this or why I did that. But yeah, the talk show was such a,

like a comfortable arena for me. I was so, it was a natural thing. Like in the beginning, I would just channel Oprah because I was such an Oprah fan and Phil Donahue, bless his soul. And Sally Jesse, like I was a big watcher of those shows. So when they gave me the microphone and said, go, you know, go do it yourself. You know, I was like, all right, what would Oprah say? I would channel her. Oh, what would Oprah say? But then as I found my footing, it's like, I just, I

I just was a really good listener and I was really interested and curious about people and relationships. It was fascinating. And then it was fun and it became like the party that everyone wanted to come to every day at our show. You know, it was like...

It was really special. And I don't think I recognized it then when I'm in it, I'm just in it. And I was like, oh my God, I'm making this money. And people are like shouting my name. Like, this is so cool. But it just felt so normal. Like, okay, this is the next chapter of my career. You know, it's now looking back on like, what the hell was I thinking? How presumptuous for me to assume I know what people should do when they're, you know, in relationships. It's like, yeah, I didn't even know who I was at that time.

But it was fun. Well, because we grew up in the way we did like in the public eye like that-

It's, it's as if we have somehow been encapsulated in people's minds as that younger version of ourselves. You know, like people always see us the way they first saw us. Is that ever hard for you? Or do you embrace that? I think it's changed because I have been, I've literally like had all these different facets of my career, you know, like people know me and it's, it's really funny. John Waters and I'll joke about it. We're in an airport and like, you

you know, certain type of personal code to me. Oh, they know me from this. Like we can kind of peg them, you know, gay man. He knows obviously John water stuff, but then the pregnant mom saw my documentary about birth, you know, like it's just so funny. So I think I've reinvented myself and, and I have changed my physicality both in weight and, you know, obviously with my gray hair and I shaved my head and my, like I,

I have a lot of different facets of me. See, I look at you and you look exactly the same from 90210. You haven't changed at all. That's what I hear a lot. And in my mind, I'm like, what are you talking about? I've changed so much.

What are the years you were on the air with 90210? It was 10 years. 90, the entire decade. So 1990 it launched? Yeah. So you launched before I went on the air in 93. So I went from 93 to 04. So basically around the same timeframe, we're basically the same age. Wow. Yeah. Those were good times, weren't they? Oh, yes. The best. The 90s were the best.

Hands down. I'm so glad. I talk about it with my new husband a lot, Ross. He's not my new husband. In two and a half years, we've been married. But he and I are similar in age. He's incredible. But we both are... And maybe you feel the same way. I'm so glad I was born when I was born. That I lived through our childhood. We lived through without cell phones, without those...

distractions and you know and our kids never knew what it was like before that so I don't know what's gonna happen to the kids these days to the youngins I know my daughter the other day like because she they have a new brother that's two years old and I asked her I was like what do you think it's gonna be like for Jack when he's your age

And what'd she say? She's like, I don't know. Because even, you know, my middle one is able to look at my younger one's experience right now and think, I'm so glad I didn't have to deal with that. Yeah. Because they're like four or five years apart. Things change so much. It's crazy. But I guess we just adapt. I mean, yes, we will. I wonder what, I mean, I watched that Oprah special on AI last week.

It was so sobering. It was so, it's so daunting. I mean, I'm someone who's like, I don't even, I was never taught computer skills, really. No. I was never, like, I learned to type on a typewriter. Yeah, type. I could type on a typewriter. And I was good at it. I was so good at it. My sister and I, we're a year apart, but with that elective, we were in the same, like, doing it at the same time, so it got very competitive. So I'm really good at typing. But like...

I couldn't, I can't, I mean, it's embarrassing to say, but I can't do like Microsoft Word. I feel your pain. Trust me. I'm like, oh girl, somebody help me here. I'm remote. I don't know how to work it. And with social media, like I don't know how I'm, I'm just, I say I'm a grandma with this stuff and I just feel like, all right, it's just, I,

just missed out on it. Like my kids are very savvy with that stuff. They're not big on social media. They don't do it. Neither my kids, they're like readers. And they're, I mean, I'm glad that they're not caught up in what seems to be something that's really, really addicting and challenging to deal with. Well, we're doing it. We are doing it. We are officially growing up, even though we don't know, we don't have our tech skills, but we're now in this, you know, magical phase of our lives.

Our 50s. And did you have any like trepidation when you were turning 50, when you were 49, you're like, oh my God, what's going to happen? I mean, so it's been five years because I'm 55. Yeah. It was weird because, okay, so I lost Christian, my partner, my second husband when I was 48. Yeah.

So, you know, I was like a late bloomer in every way. Like I was married from 25 to 35 with my first husband, the father of my kids. And I remarried to Christian when I was 42. And then at 48, he passed. And so coming up on 50, it was such a huge milestone. And I was dealing with this loss. And so much of it was wrapped up in trying to like heal from that, trying to like get

Get the lesson. And, you know, so I did celebrate turning 50. And I, you know, but I think it was it was bittersweet, you know, because he wasn't there for me. But yeah, and I did like a list. I mean, something I did and I it's it's not PC, but I did.

I did it as an exercise and like a therapeutic exercise, which I've told people about it and they now do it for themselves. So when I was turning 50, I did this list of all the things that I'd gone through, achieved, overcome from the time I turned 40 to the time I turned 50. And it is quite the list. Like it's, it runs the gamut. Like it runs from like, oh, I stopped speaking to my mother to I

I won my first Emmy. I got to go on the Oprah show and profess my love to Christian. I, you know, I, it's like a list that, you know, it's a lot. And, and so that, so turning 50 for me, it was really like relishing all that I have lived through. And I've, I've lived such a life. Like I, I wouldn't trade places with anyone else. I've all for all of it. Like even losing my, my partner, um,

You know, I got so much out of that relationship. And I, you know, have this very, very like strong knowing that he is with me every step of the way. I believe he brought my new husband to me. Like, you know, and I got into plant medicine. I got it. Like, there's so many things I've done since, you know, turning 40 and,

And since losing him, like it's like I said before, I feel like I'm the best me I've ever been because I think I'm having, like I'm way more open in my 50s than I was in my 20s. Me too, me too. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, I was, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's so many things that I was so close-minded about and very judgmental about and just fear-filled. And I think I'm less open.

fear-filled. Definitely. Yeah. I always say I'm less reactive now. I'm still impulsive. I'm still impulsive. Yeah. What sign are you? I think that's a good quality. I'm an Aries. Okay. My son's an Aries. I'm a Virgo. Yeah. And yeah, I don't even know what it means, but I'm just, I am who I am. Like, like it's like, there's no changing who I am. I like who I am. Right. No, that's the key right there. You love who you are. It's the key to happiness. It's the key to freedom. Yeah. Yeah.

But I kind of have always loved myself. Like, I kind of have. I mean, I'm always like, I'm a work in progress. And I'm, you know, have a lot to learn. But I've always been a pretty good person. I'm a really good friend. I think I'm a really good mom. I'm a really good wife.

I'm not a great actress. I'll admit that. I've been good. I've been really good, but I've also been really not good. And I'm better, I think, at playing being me, you know, being authentically myself than I am with taking on characters. Well, that's a good thing to know about yourself. I love that you also are embracing your beautiful hair.

Yeah, well, right now, I meant to put a hat on. Why? Because my headphones are too big, and the hat just helps it stay. And I forgot, but I forgot. And I kind of just blew it out really fast. But the fact that I have hair is a freaking miracle. Because five years ago, I shaved my head. You probably are aware of this. But I shaved my head and went public about my hair.

that I was having, which was with hair loss. It's called androgenetic alopecia, my type of hair loss, which is basically like getting older and women lose their hair. It's like there's no big, I mean, it's just very normal for women to go through that. But for me, I was wearing extensions for a really long time and that was damaging my hair. And the color I was putting on my hair, every three weeks I was having to dye my hair.

And all of it just didn't agree with me. And I finally just surrendered. And that was, again, a very traumatic experience for me.

I'm someone who's an open book. Everyone's known me. They grew up with me. They know me from my show. I'm very honest and open about everything in my life. And in this case, I didn't, I was so ashamed that I was dealing with this and I had it as like sort of this deep, dark secret, something I didn't even talk about with my therapist. And so when I finally kind of came out and just basically let go of like, I'm going to just rock a bald head for the rest of my life. And you know, you don't know what you look like bald until you do it. Like baldy.

You don't know. How did you like it? I looked so good. I looked so good. I was amazed that I have actually a good like shaped head. I have a very small head. All right.

I like to think my brain isn't small, but my head is small. And so I was relieved, but that's not even the point. The point is like, I just like let go of it, like just bothering me, you know, in secret. And that was the release. And lo and behold, you know, I used a product that helped me. And I also, I think, stopped stressing about it, stopped putting extension. Anyway, I don't know how I got onto that. But yeah, my gray hair, I'm very grateful for every strand. Thank you.

Thank you. I want to go white someday, like Betty White. Do you have gray hair? Yeah. I have white hair. You do? It gets white. And so you have to, do you color your hair every three weeks? Is that your... Yeah. I'm going today, actually. You are? Yeah. Well, lucky for you, you're blonde, right? I assume you are a natural blonde. You don't have brown hair. Yeah. No. No, it's... And I think with the pandemic, the timing of it, like the genius that...

with the way it unfolded for me, because I did this very deliberately at the end of 2019, like on New Year's Eve day. I had my friend document it, my friend Amanda Demme, who's a brilliant photographer. I wanted it documented because I knew I had to be public about it. Like I didn't do it as like a

I did it to be set free, but I felt like if I just shaved my head and came out with a shaved head, people would have thought, you know, that I had cancer or God forbid, or that I was crazy, you know, like I just needed to tell my story. And so I was very deliberate about that, but it was right before the pandemic. And once the pandemic had happened, nobody could color their hair, nobody. So for me, like I just, it would have been, I would have been shaving my head, but it would have been under a different set of circumstances for sure. Yeah.

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I recently read one of my journal entries when I turned 50 and I talked openly about how I felt about aging and the double standard with women and men versus men getting older. And I just, I love that you don't give an F. You just are who you are. Yeah. And I love being this age. I mean, I love it. It's like I have so much more just...

and peace. I mean, it's also my circumstances. So I recognize like I'm privileged, I have money and I, you know, like I get it, but I've also like been through a lot and coming out the other side, like there's just an appreciation and it's just, yeah, my husband and I both are in this phase of just like stopping and smelling the roses and appreciating everything

The little things and the quiet and the calm. And yeah, because I recognize the world is crazy and there's so much that we can't control, which can make me crazy. It could literally, you know, like if I watch the news too much, it makes me spin. But my little bubble, my little bubble with my dog and my beautiful husband in our beautiful house and overlooking the ocean, it's just like, pinch me, please. I mean, I think that that,

I feel like I'm almost there. You know, I'm an 18-year-old, but my 21-year-old moved back in, which I love. But my husband is really ready for that chapter. He doesn't have children of his own. So he's ready to have me all to himself, which he hasn't had yet. How do you feel about that? Are you ready? Part of me is ready. Yeah, because I love just hanging out and being...

Just, you know, going with the flow and just being chill. And we love doing that together. And it's really hard to do that when you have kids coming and going and doing what kids do. And so I'm like half and half. Yeah. Yeah. I just didn't, that just wasn't part of my thing. I couldn't wait. And so we have actually like a rule in our, well, not a rule, but like an agreement that we, our kids are never moving back in.

They can visit. They can visit. We're in the process of building a little guest house so that we have a proper space for people to visit. And my kids who live, my, both my kids live in New York together. So I definitely want them to visit. I just don't want like the moving back in. Like it just, it just doesn't work for, for us, you know? Yeah. I love that you have that boundary though. Like, Oh yeah. I feel like, I don't know if I could ever say that to my daughters. Like,

I kind of want to.

maybe once or twice a week like lately my older son Milo he calls me just to fill me in on what's going on and it's like such a joy I could cry because normally when they call me it's they need something there's something's wrong you know and and lately it's been so nice that I get a phone call I'm like what do you need nothing I just wanted to fill you I'm like oh my god this

This time has come. It's amazing. Yeah. It's really, yeah. I'm really, it's like that thing that like, I'm really proud of, of who they are and,

And they're happy. They're super happy. I've done my job, I think. I mean, there's always going to be blips in the road. But yeah, right now, today, I can truly celebrate that they're doing really well. Yeah. Now your next job is just you, you and your life, you being happy, you choosing you. It's the best. I'm really good at that job. Yeah. It's working. Wait, you and I have both been married before. And-

We've both had to go through divorces in the spotlight. Yes, I have. I think you've been married three times. I've been married three times. And I say this is my third and last and favorite marriage. No, that's good. And I was very much in love with my first. I was absolutely when I got married at 25, I thought it was forever. When I got married at 42, I thought it was forever. But

I think the piece that was missing, if I can break it down, and it's obviously way more complex than this, but just to simplify, I don't think I had the self-love then and the knowing of who I was that I do now. Does that make sense? A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, my husband and I joke about it sometimes because I will get insecure or feel a certain type of way and say like, you know,

This is old. I don't do this anymore. Like he had the best years of my life and I feel so bad that now I'm older because I'm nine years older than Dave.

Good for you. I feel like he got the short end of the stick almost. Like he, you know, it could be perceived as such. But honestly, the truth is he's getting the best version of me that better, way better than any of the other two had. Because I've learned so much about myself and what I've worked so hard to learn more about myself so that I could be in a healthy relationship with somebody else because I do love to be partnered.

And I just was like struggling and not being able to, you know, have success in that area. And so now I'm like, you may not have gotten all the glitz and the glamour of, you know, that sudden fame and all the money. You know, I joke and I'm like, I gave my first husband a Harley antique car.

You know, a Corvette on this, you know, all the things that the other husbands got. And he's like, yeah, wow. Okay. Now I'm much more sensible and less impulsive about like financial decisions. Right. I was dating this guy after my first marriage ended. I was dating this guy for a number of years and he was sort of, he should have been a rebound. Like it should have been a few months. He was like a hot trainer, but it turned into three and a half years and

And he, you know, he was, he was really in love with me, I'd say. And he wanted to go to the next step and I wasn't going to do that. And I remember I bought him a car. Like I gave him money to buy a car and because I wanted to show my level of commitment to him, but I didn't want to commit like, like further, like letting him move in or anything. So I did. I mean, yeah. And that's like ridiculous. Why? Like, like I, the fact that I did, I can look back and I'm like, oh my God, ridiculous.

You know, and the fact that he took it, the fact that he took it, but anyway, anyway. And he drove it right on out. Yeah. Well, I actually, what I did is I gave him the money. I didn't even, I gave him the money to buy the car of his choosing, basically. A certain amount of money. I think it was like 40 grand. I think it was 40 grand. And of course I can remember that. And this is like in 2005 or 2006. Yeah.

And yeah, so I gave him like, and I was like, look, you can get whatever you want, but like, you'd be an idiot to spend more than the 40 grand, you know? And I don't even remember what he got, but that was like an example of me just like, that's like, it's like, whatever. I don't look back on that as like,

A fond memory. This is true. This is true. He probably doesn't either. Maybe. Hopefully he's not listening. You've been really open about your previous husband, Christian, who you talked about briefly here and there in this conversation, how he suffered from mental disease, bipolar, I think. Yes, he was bipolar. How did, did you know about his mental struggles before you married him?

I did. I did. When we got together and our story is so crazy, we met through a house fire. Like I accidentally started a house fire in the house I was living in the house burned down. And that's what kind of brought us together. And it was one of those like it never should have happened. It's it's inexplicable. Like I can't wrap my head around why that happened other than it was divine intervention. And I was supposed to get together with Christian and we got together very quickly. And he told me, oh, I've been diagnosed bipolar.

And me, I didn't Google it. I just said, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a control freak. We all have our things. Like, like, like that's cause I didn't know what bipolar meant. I just, I was, I thought it was okay. It's like some sort of condition that you just kind of deal with. Like I have ADHD, you know? And so I never saw, so he always was low lying depression, like the depressed and he was suicidal actually when I met him. So like us getting together and him being a man of his word when he committed to me,

He changed his course. He was planning to take his life at that time. So he was someone that struggled with chronic pain. He was someone who...

He had learning issues. He was brilliant and special and amazing. And he also had these incredible challenges. And so I knew when I married him that I was going to be taking care of him for the rest of his life. I was going to be his caretaker, you know, and I very much was his caretaker. I, you know, he couldn't hold a job and all those things, but, you know, we were very much in love. And I believe when he did decide to, he couldn't take it anymore in this body, in this, in this 3D body meat suit, he,

He chose to check out, but I believe he, like I took care of him when he was here and he is taking care of me right now, wherever he is. And, you know, bipolar is something that like, I mean, bipolar people are the most extraordinarily special and charismatic people.

and challenged, you know, it's like they're both and, and he see living through the psychotic episodes that I lived through with him and the mania, you know, I mostly dealt with him being like under, you know, being under like always like hard to get out of bed, hard to motivate, you know, just like, just like, you know, he couldn't kind of

like rise to like, you know, a baseline that was like functioning, you know? And, but then when the mania trips in, then you, oh my God, he's like on fire. He's got all these ideas and he's getting up in the morning with me and he's oil pulling and he's going on a run. And I mean, it was just like seeing him like at his best self, but then,

You know, when you're not medicated and when you're not being treated in some way, you just keep going up and up and up to where they think he thought he was. He was God. And he thought he could cure cancer with his hands and he didn't need his Range Rover. So he left it on the side of the road because he could time travel and he could. I mean, it was like that kind of crazy. That was really, really crazy.

so traumatizing isn't a strong enough word for what I kind of the experience for me of seeing him change on a dime and not being able to save him. Like, that's the other thing. It's like, I'm this manifestor. I've had, I've been able to really like take care of things. You know, I'm someone that like, I can fix stuff. I can pay for stuff. I can find the best person. And in this case, my beloved suffering partner, I could not save him. And that was really hard to, to come to terms with, um,

you know, but I am not God. And, and he was here for as long as he was supposed to be here. And he was my greatest teacher, my, my, like a great love. Like I would have said my greatest love and I would never have been lucky enough to find love again. But I do feel like he was the step before for me to get to where I am now with this relationship with my new husband, Ross, who is the pinnacle of partners and, um,

And I think the work I did through getting healing from the loss of Christian made me be in a place where I could recognize the quality of human that I am attracting now, you know, because I would attract, I mean, the people that I was going to say got inside of me. But like, you know, I mean, I definitely was less discerning than I than I am now. And now I'm with I'm just with the most beautiful person for me. And yeah, it's it's the best. It's honestly the best.

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Do you remember when you had that I choose me moment where you were like, I'm going to let love happen for me again? Because I know you were... Which time? I mean, this last one. This one? Healing from that massive loss and all that went with that. And then you met Ross and you came to make... Was it an impulsive decision when you met Ross too? Or was that something that you had to choose to go down that road again? Yeah.

You know, I was dating someone else. So I was dating. So here, so okay. So I was turning. You are a wild woman. I love this. I know I was openly dating. So just so you know, I don't cheat. I've never cheated. And as far as I know, I have never been cheated on in my life. I have never dealt with infidelity.

as far as I know. So I'm dealing with the hair stuff. I'm wearing these extensions. I'm keeping like the whole thing a secret because I'm so ashamed by it and I'm turning 50. Okay, I've lost my partner. I've lost what I think is going to be the last great love of my life. How do I, who's going to want me in my 50s? Yeah.

You know, and then I shaved my head and I'm dating this guy and it's not, I was holding on for dear life with this guy, even though he was the wrong guy. And from the beginning, he told me, like he told me he doesn't want partnership. He wanted to be free, a free spirit, a Peter Pan. He wanted that, you know? So it's like, I, what do I do when I want something? I'm going to, I'm going to like push that square peg in that round hole no matter what.

And so I was distracted in this relationship that was not making me happy. And Ross comes into the picture. I was introduced to him by a mutual friend and,

I went out with him because I was in an open, the guy wanted an open thing. So I'm like, all right, whatever. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah. You were in an open relationship? Yes, yes. But for me, I was thinking, oh, I'm so open-minded. I'm a free spirit. Okay, yeah. But turns out it brought out the worst in me. I was so jealous. I was so insecure. I'm not insecure. I told you, I love myself. I love every square inch of myself. And I was becoming this person that I did not recognize. And it was really- Oh.

Again, it was another learning experience for me because I find out that I'm actually a serial monogamist. Like I actually, you know, yeah, I'm not as open as I thought I was. So I was with that guy, this is the beginning of the pandemic. Yeah.

The guy was perfectly nice guy. He just wasn't the guy, but I'm thinking he's the guy because there's no other guy. And I've got the gray... My hair was shaved. So I had like half inch of gray hair. I thought I looked great, but I was, you know, I'm definitely not everyone's type. And I get introduced to Ross. And what drew me to him is that he grew up Mormon. He grew up Mormon. This is before the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Okay. But I'm like fascinated. I'm a next talk show host. I love...

like humanity and you're curious so I was curious I went out with him literally to talk his ear off about Mormonism and just to hear all the crazy stuff that goes on behind the scenes and he and he's also six foot six okay he's a giant I'm five three on a good day I was wearing a muumuu I was wearing a giant muumuu he said I looked like I was 400 pounds he said it was false advertising um

But yeah, we went out and it was not a love connection. Like the first date was not, it was like one of those awkward COVID like hugs, you know, you want to hug, but like, you don't want to die from it. And so it was just like, bye, see you again. You know, never. And we, we, I reached out to him like three weeks after that, when I was medicating, self-medicating at home on a couple of cocktails and another thing that we won't mention, but basically I was like high and,

And I wrote him, you know, I'd broken up with the other guy again. We'd gotten back together, broke up again. And I wrote Ross. I was like, are we ever going to hang out again? He's like, sure. And I was like, come over. And he was a five minute walk from my house where I was living. I was living in the marina. Five minute walk. He walks over in his like sandals and his red solo, spicy marg in a cup. And yeah, I mean, truth be told, I did tell him, I warned him that I'm going to, I'm going to, I can't believe I'm going to say this.

I warned him that I'm going to be the best lover he's ever had. And then, yeah. And then I passed out and then he, you know, so basically that was our meet cute story. And then we became each, well, he became my booty call for a number of months while I was still seeing the other guy. I was very open. I told Ross, look, I'm a little bit of a head case, blah, blah, blah. But then I literally saw the light. I don't know if you follow like, like the moon and,

astrology and the moon. And like, so there was a super blue moon on Halloween of 2020. I don't know if that rings a bell to you, but it was this big thing. And my friends were telling me, oh, this is a portal, you know, no one has an intention. And so that was the night we'd been dating for like three months casually. And that was the night on Halloween night where I literally, it was like a rom-com where I looked and did a double take in my house. He came over and

And I, cause I wrote him, I was supposed to go to a party and I canceled. And then I wrote to him and I was like, Hey, come over. And this time he put his foot down and he's like, okay, I'll come over, but I'm staying over this time. You're going to have to deal with me in the morning. Cause every other time he'd left, you know, when we finished. And so we, that night he came over and he sat on my couch. I remember looking at him and doing a double take. And I was like, Oh, it's you.

It's always been you, like you're the one. And that was it. Like, like it was like the light bulb went on over my head. And then he was, he'd been waiting and he doesn't like to admit that, but he was, he was in love with me and waiting for me to come around. And we've been together ever since that was Halloween of 2020. And we got married in January, 2022 and,

And we are the happiest people in our 50s that I think you'll ever meet. It's like when it's right, it's right. We've never had an argument. We've never had a crossword. We've never gotten sick of each other. And we spend all of our time together when we're not working, which is a lot.

Oh my God. I love this conversation so much. It's so good. It's so good. We're going to continue this conversation. We are going to continue it. But on your podcast. Yay. But before we go, I want to ask you, Rikki Lake, what was your last I choose me moment?

This morning, I choose to take really good care of my body and my mind. And so I go on a hike every single morning. As I said, I live in Malibu and I go out my door and I do a three mile hike with my dog most of the time with my husband. This morning, he didn't join me. And then I forced myself to go to my Lagree Pilates class. I do that three to four times a week.

And so it's, you know, it's like, would I rather stay in bed sometimes? But no, this is does so much for my body and my mind and my spirit. And so that is what I did. That was absolutely a choose me moment. Love it. Hey, I'll see you on the other side. Yeah, I can't wait. Be there, be square.

This conversation with Ricky has been too good. We are going to continue part two over on her podcast, The High Life. We'll link to the episode in our show notes. So be sure to check the rest of this conversation out.

As we continue to choose ourselves each week, I want you to do something fun for yourself this week that will be a mood booster whenever you need it. I want you to make a playlist of all your favorite upbeat songs, music you want to sing and roll down the windows to, songs that make you want to dance in the kitchen while you're cooking. No sad emo songs on this playlist, okay? Music can be so therapeutic. I want you to make your own I Choose Me playlist.

You will find the song In Her Mood by Ice Spice on mine. It always puts me in a good mood. I don't know. There's just something about it. Thanks for listening to I Choose Me. You can check out all the social links in our show notes and the link to part two of this incredible conversation with Rikki Lake. So rate and review the podcast and use the hashtag I Choose Me. I hope you'll be here with me next week. I love you guys.

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