How to talk to a colleague who offended you
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TED Audio Collective. Hi, everyone. It's Chris Duffy here. So first of all, some exciting news. We have started producing the next season of How to Be a Better Human. And I'm really excited to tell you that we are going to be coming back at the end of June with new episodes.

In the meantime, here is something a little different to tide you over. This is an episode of Conversations with People Who Hate Me. This is another show in the TED Audio Collective. And in this show, host Dylan Maron moderates conversations between people who think that they see the world differently. Arguing lovers, feuding friends, even haters and internet trolls. But despite the title,

Conversations with People Who Hate Me is not a show about hate. Rather, it's intimate, it's moving, and it's often surprisingly funny. It's part therapy session, part confessional. This is a podcast about talking it out to understand each other.

Dylan is one of my closest friends, and you might remember that he has also been a guest on How to Be a Better Human. So I'm so excited for you to hear his work and his podcast. It's fantastic. We're going to share a sneak preview of a new episode of his show right now. And if you like what you hear, you can find and follow Conversations with People Who Hate Me wherever you're listening to this.

How to be a better human is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. What if comparing car insurance rates was as easy as putting on your favorite podcast? With Progressive, it is. Just visit the Progressive website to quote with all the coverages you want. You'll see Progressive's direct rate, then their tool will provide options from other companies so you can compare. All you need to do is choose the rate and coverage you like. Quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive.

Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Comparison rates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Hello, hello. I'm Malik. I'm Jamie. And this is World Gone Wrong, where we discuss the unprecedented times we're living through. Can your manager still schedule you for night shifts after that werewolf bit you? My ex-boyfriend was replaced by an alien body snatcher, but I think I like him better now. Who is this dude showing up in every...

Everyone's old pictures. My friend says the sewer alligators are reading maps now. When did the kudzu start making that humming sound? We are just your normal millennial roommates processing our feelings about a chaotic world in front of some microphones. World Gone Wrong, a new fiction podcast from Audacious Machine Creative, creators of Unwell, a Midwestern Gothic Mystery. Learn more at audaciousmachinecreative.com.

Find World Gone Wrong in all the regular places you find podcasts. I love you so much. I mean, you could like up the energy a little bit. You could up the energy. I actually don't take notes. That was good. I'm just kidding. You sounded great. So did you.

Hey, and welcome back to Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the show where we have difficult conversations about complicated topics. Now, to get it out of the way, here is the obligatory 15-second plug for my book, and I'm going to go fast. Okay, the book. It is also called Conversations with People Who Hate Me. It's a way to take this show and put it in your pocket, and at the risk of devolving into complete narcissism, I would like to relate to you a compliment someone gave to the book.

The amazing Nora McInerney, the writer and host of Terrible Thanks for Asking, an amazing podcast, please go listen to it, said that this book, quote, offers us hope and a path towards finding connection and meaning in spite of and through our differences, end quote. The pre-order link is in the description of this episode. And that's it. It's done. See? Not so bad. All right, let's get to the podcast that you came here to listen to.

In today's episode, two professional colleagues, Deanna and Denise, speak to each other for the first time since they had a falling out in a text exchange. And that one-sentence summary is a totally gross oversimplification of this story. This story is about a lot of things. It's about race, for one thing. Deanna is black and Denise is white.

But even distilling them just to their race is also an oversimplification, because this episode is also about how we experience big national events differently, and how we express our experience of those big events differently on social media.

And it's also about how we mend broken relationships after someone severed those ties. And it is also about a specific creative community and how it responded to the summer of Black Lives Matter protests in 2020.

So, this story is about a lot of things, and as with any interpersonal drama between people who know each other, there is a lot of context, a lot of moving parts, which is why you're going to hear me jump in a couple times during the solo interviews on voiceover mic so that I can help synthesize the story to keep it anonymous but also allowing you to hear all of the context. Names and some identifying details have been adjusted to keep the story as anonymous as possible.

So, first I'm going to speak to Diana, then I'm going to speak to Denise, and then, for the first time since they're falling out, they are going to speak with each other. Kicking it off, here is Diana.

Hi, Dylan. How are you? I'm well, thank you. Yeah, how's your morning kicking off? It is going well. I've been looking forward to speaking with you. So it's going well. Me too. Me too. Me too. So of course, we are going to get into all that we're here to discuss. But separate from all of that, I just want to know about you, the person, you, the human. Tell me about you.

Wow. I set up a new Twitter account. And when I got to the bio part, I just blanked and just said me. Okay, good, good, good. So that was this morning. Yeah, I love it. I'm blanking a little bit on me right now. I am literally seven days into full-time entrepreneurship. I quit my...

20-year profession last week. I got a new job and I quit it. So I am now a newly full-time entrepreneur. I sell online products, primarily t-shirts right now for Black women. And I've got a niece and nephew. I'm just an auntie. I'm just a regular, regular woman. Just a regular. Niece and nephew, love it. No, no, no, no. I'm exceptional. I'm sorry. I don't want to be misleading. No, you are. Okay, I love that. I don't want to be misleading. Yes. I don't want to be misleading.

She's an exceptional queen, and she's grazing us on this podcast. We thank you for it, Deanna. I don't want to mislead people. No, let's not mislead a single person here. So, Deanna, I met you because you filled out the submission form for this show, and you have actually brought a story to me. Before we get into the story, what made you want to come here to explore this topic?

Because I feel like I have unfinished business and I don't like that feeling. I'm a fan of the show, number one. So I was just thinking, how do I broach this conversation? And I felt like

We probably needed a mediator in some way, because I think at the crux of it is a level of not hearing one another. And so I couldn't think of any better place. Oh, my God. Well, here you came. And I'm so thrilled. I'm getting to meet you. This is amazing. So taking it piece by piece.

When did you first meet Denise? I met Denise, I believe, about, oh gosh, the years after COVID. They kind of seem so weird. Everything is further away than it seems. So it's probably been about three years now. And then what were the circumstances? Walk me through it.

So I met Denise because I host and produce a storytelling show. We do a storytelling show featuring African-American women. And much to my delight, Denise opened up the living room to myself and the show and

Gave a Saturday night spot, which, you know, to get a Saturday night in someone else's entertainment space is really nice. And so it was just a really kind of like a match made in heaven as far as what I was trying to accomplish and the fact that they were so open to allowing my my program to run at their space. So that's how we met.

And so how did the shows go? They went really well. It's just a bunch of fun. I mean, everybody gets all the feelings. So it was it was a really positive experience. There were some hiccups. Like I had some little issues with Denise along the way.

All right, friends, we have arrived to the part of the interview that I mentioned in the introduction, the backstory that has a lot of moving pieces. And I want you to hear all of it because it provides necessary context for their relationship. But I am hopping on here on voiceover mic to synthesize all of these moving pieces so as not to compromise the anonymity that we are trying to uphold.

Now, the first hiccup that Deanna is referring to has to do with the Living Room Writing Center's air conditioning unit. We're in Oklahoma. It gets hot in the summer. So we had one show and I found out the air was broken. And so it was sweltering hot.

They refunded our very nominal fee that they charged us anyway, but it made my guests very uncomfortable. Second hiccup happened when Deanna and her producing partner disagreed about whether or not Denise should introduce their show.

Deanna wanted it to happen. And my partner, you know, really didn't want, you know, a white woman to hit the stage first at our show featuring Black women. And I'm like, I'm not going to disrespect Denise. This is her house. She's the executive director, you know. Deanna's producing partner eventually conceded that fine, Denise could introduce their show, but

And after all that, Denise was a no-show. She did not attend that evening, even though I had kind of extended myself. And she just didn't show and didn't tell me. Third hiccup is that with only a few days' notice, Denise alerted Deanna that there was going to be a very tight turnaround window before her show, which meant that Deanna and her crew were going to have very little time to set up.

And the show started so late. People were complaining. And these complaints hit Deanna hard, given her relationship with her audience. You know, a lot of the people who come to my show are a little more mature in their age, you know, a little bit of an older group of women.

predominantly African-American. And within the culture, if they see me doing a show saying it's for Black people, Black people come to my show and I'm late, other Black people say, oh, she's disrespecting us because she's taking advantage of us because we're Black. If we were white, she wouldn't be late. So that's just something that happens within the Black community that I didn't think she could understand how badly that would reflect upon my brand. So three hiccups.

The AC not working, Denise not showing up after Deanna fought for her to open their show, and a late start. But those were the types of things that I felt a little sensitive to because I am hosting a show that is kind of built around my being Black and my race. And so I feel a little bit of an added pressure to represent, if you will, and put my best foot forward.

And yet, these hiccups didn't affect Deanna's ultimate takeaway. Overall, the venue was phenomenal. The techs that worked there were phenomenal. It was just a really good outlet for the community, so it was a positive experience. Moving forward...

We had the summer protest in George Floyd happened. And, as we all saw, these protests were not just in the streets, but also in digital spaces where people collectively called upon institutions and organizations to do better. And one such collective call-out came close to home. Living Room was having a lot of

diversity issues. There were so many issues going on. And these issues, some claimed, stemmed from one person, Denise. But even after all those hiccups that we talked about before, Deanna couldn't totally relate to this accusation. I never saw Denise herself say or do anything that I thought was in error. I heard a lot of things in meetings and

I witnessed people in the community kind of putting her on blast on Facebook. But Deanna didn't join in on this blast against Denise. So she excused herself from the public conversation because, as she puts it, There was just such a lack of respect, just mutually. And so I didn't really think that that was the most constructive way to go about having these conversations.

So Deanna did, in fact, successfully avoid taking any sides in this public reckoning. But when asked, she contributed some light feedback on a diversity statement that Living Room was planning to put out. And when Living Room posted this diversity statement on social media, they publicly thanked her. And I felt a little bit betrayed or kind of bamboozled a little bit because they didn't tell me that they were going to put my name out there.

And it made me look like I was supporting them possibly against the BIPOC community. You know, like that wasn't really my intention. It was just to like just be helpful. And so to put me out there kind of publicly didn't kind of land with me properly, but I didn't say anything.

Still, none of these moments of friction, not the hiccups with the show, not the public reckoning against Denise, not even this unwanted public shout-out that Deanna just detailed, none of this stopped her from continuing to work with Denise. In fact, in the fall of 2021, as the country was still reeling from the summer of George Floyd, Deanna had an idea. So I reached out to Denise and said, what if we do our next storytelling class on privilege?

And she was game for it. Like I said, they had always been very open to these ideas. And Denise actually took the course. She took the class herself. Since this was a storytelling class, participants naturally open up to each other. And Denise happened to also share some things about her background where she grew up coming from

an area where her grandmother, I believe, lived in a sundown town. That means if it's after sundown, Black people can't be in that town. You know, it's going to be dangerous for you. It's like literally a sign up. And so some really heavy truth. And she did a wonderful story about kind of her quirky, odd way of dealing with race with a Black friend when she was a girl. And it was, you know, that was really special. So it was just a really great experience. So you are probably thinking that this kind of sounds like a happy ending.

I mean, after all of that potential for conflict, Deanna remained connected to Denise as a professional colleague, and you might even say that the two grew more connected after this storytelling class.

So what happened? Well, January 6th, 2021 happened. It was the day of the insurrection. People who were misled to believe that the presidential election was stolen stormed the Capitol. And if we recall, the rest of us all over the world were watching this unfold and processing it in real time.

And now that we have arrived here, I am going to shut down my voiceover mic and return to my chat with Deanna. Wow. January 6th was terrifying. Politically, it just felt very palpable, not just because it was happening at the Capitol, but also because of where I live and the people I'm around every day. So it was just really, really, really intense. And I just remember...

When it started happening, I had to go to the bank with my mom. And we literally, for the first and only time, had CNN playing on the dashboard on a cell phone in the car. We were glued to this thing. And I have a nephew who's in elementary school and a niece who was in high school at the time. So

We were making sure the kids were going to get home from school OK, because they live in very predominantly white areas. And so it was very frightening, extremely frightening.

And to grow up Black in this country and to have seen and heard of mob violence in the Klan since childhood, these are things that don't leave you. I had become aware a couple of years ago that my third great grandfather was part of an extremely brutal, you know, all lynchings are brutal, but he was part of a lynching that took place in 1894. So I have always walked around with that knowledge for the last couple of years and

And it has it has just colored my worldview. There's no other way to put it, you know. And so I do have a I would say a chip. I've always had a little bit of a consciousness about race and everything. But I think I would I would actually go as far as to say that I have a unapologetic chip now. And so a boldness that I may not have had a couple of years ago.

Yeah, no, I it is the most understandable chip. This thing that is this lived reality for you every day is just exposed in its most like obvious way. And you're like, oh, yeah, there's no escaping this terrifying thing.

So you come across a post that Denise has made on Facebook that says, how am I supposed to work today when I just found out about Q Shaman? And attached is a photo of the man in question who most of us will recognize as the QAnon shaman who is wearing horns and a fur pelt and he is brandishing the American flag.

What's going through your mind as you see this post? So I didn't see it till the next morning. I hadn't been on Facebook or any social media for probably a couple months or a month at that time. But this was so big. I just kind of wanted to see what people were saying. So I get on Facebook on January 7th and Denise's post is one of the first things I see. And because we are part of a creative community, a lot of times

people can be very flippant or satirical or have comedic takes on things. So when Denise posted that, there were some likes and kind of like, yeah, this is weird. And then there might've been a little bit of some people putting a laughing emoji and having some comments and kind of making light of the situation, right? So as a Black woman, and I've explained to you how terrifying this was,

This particular post and the responses were angering to me because it's like, wow, you actually have the privilege to laugh at this. This is like one of the heaviest things I've ever seen in my life. And so I was just like, what? And I hadn't seen this character before. So I was just like, why would she post this? Why would you be so callous or angry?

flippant about something so serious. And so that was also the prism that I saw it through is, okay, you woke white woman, you don't get it. This isn't funny. This is really, really serious. And you run an organization. This is irresponsible.

And so then you text both Denise and her co-director and you say, Denise and co-director's name don't ever invite me to do another thing at Living Room while Denise is a director. What a disgrace. How do you feel right when you send that off? I guess I just had conviction, I guess would be the way. I mean, that was just like my conviction. Like,

you've taken this a bridge too far, you know, like you really don't get it. You really obtuse in some way, you know, like you really can't understand what people are saying to you. Like all of this happened and you, this is the best you could do. And so, um,

you know, all the background we went through, I'm thinking, wow, this is the best you could do in this moment. And so I was very disappointed and I was angry. And I think like, I will never work with this lady. She just does not get it. And she's never, she's doesn't get it today. She's never going to get it. And I do feel the knowledge I learned about her during the course of the storytelling class and about her family and her history is

and some of her behavior and her upbringing, I do believe that played a role in my anger level towards her. And as someone who creates a safe space, I believe that I need to own that. And I don't believe it's right to level that against someone. But again, that was not kind of like an isolated understanding of her. But I do feel like I want to

I guess on some level, I want to be wrong about her. Yeah. So after this, Denise tries to call you. You exchange some messages over the course of the next few days. Other than that, have you spoken to Denise since? No. But you're about to talk to Denise for the first time. How are you feeling about that? I'm a little nervous, but also...

really just curious, like, where do we go from here? You know, I just hope we can be honest and I don't know. I'm just curious.

Now that I've spoken to Deanna, I want to hear how Denise experienced all of this. Hi, Dylan. How are you? I'm good. How are you doing? Good. Yeah? Day so far, how's it going? As good as you can be in the times we're living in. That's how I'm doing. Okay. I heard somebody say, I heard somebody refer to that as, I'm pandemic good. So, like, I'm as good as you can be in a global pandemic. I think that's brilliant and...

Yes. The best way to describe it. Yeah. Pandemic good. So, Denise, in only as many details as you're comfortable sharing, tell me about you. Just that's a prompt. Tell me about you. Oh, gosh. So I am I am a woman.

Hear me roar. Okay, we love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We hear you. So I grew up in rural Kansas in a very, very small town. I was the youngest of five children, big family. And I was a little bit of a kid.

Pretty normal, poor, working class upbringing. And then I grew up. I moved around the country a little bit and then settled in Oklahoma. And now I'm a mom. My son is amazing. And he is nine. Great age. Great age. He like is old enough that like he's fun to hang out with.

But he's not so old that he thinks I'm a disgusting monster. He adores me and loves me. And he's like, oh, you're the best. And in a couple of years, he is going to be like, I cannot believe I said she was the best. Oh, yeah, yeah. He's going to rue the day. So you are in Oklahoma now and you run the Living Room Writing Center. So tell me what inspired you to start that?

Sure. I just wanted to create a place where creative people could come and work and really feel seen and valued, and also to create an environment where all kinds of people have access to this creative outlet. We...

host, open mic poetry reads, storytelling events, a table read of a play. So you meet a lot of people coming through Living Room Writing Center. When did you first meet Deanna? I met Deanna through a mutual friend.

who said, oh my gosh, you have to meet this woman. She is doing incredible work. And I'm surrounded by the sort of people that like, when they say that to me, I know they would never just like, they're like, oh, this is a match. It's you must like,

So we had to. And do you start working together right away? Is there a collaboration in the air? Yes. So the living room hires her to teach some storytelling classes. And then she also started producing another storytelling show for our stage. OK, so you have this working relationship with Deanna and Deanna.

It's going well. Yeah. All right. I am back on voiceover, Mike, to help anonymize and synthesize this backstory. So remember how Deanna was talking about those hiccups she experienced during the run of her storytelling show, the AC, the late start, Denise not showing up to introduce the show. So Denise actually really liked Deanna's directness about these issues. And that's the thing that I've always appreciated about Deanna is that if anything is bothering her, she will come to me and tell me.

If there's a creative conflict, she will tell me. If anything is going on, she'll just tell me. She's an adult. That's a thing that I love about her. But remember what came next, a public call out to do better and what some would call an overdue reckoning of living room's diversity issues. It was tough. People really took a hard look at what we were doing and

And whether or not it was, you know, as equitable as it could be, as inclusive as it could be.

And specifically, I was problematic. And this group wasn't just calling her out for the sake of it. They were hurt by her. And they had a list of specific demands. That included me being gone from the organization. And Denise took these demands seriously. But, as she explains, actually implementing these demands was a little trickier than you might think.

For one thing, she knew that whatever changes she promised, she would have to back that up with action. But since this was all happening during COVID, that meant that... Anything we did was going to be all talk because we were closed. Another thing that made it challenging to adequately address the demands was a lack of resources. Diversifying your staff is obviously the goal. You should have a lot of different people from a lot of different backgrounds.

And I think that becomes really tricky when you don't have any money. And separate from paid staff, appointing someone new to the board is also hard because... That's a volunteer position. So for me, in the era of George Floyd, in the era when everybody was like, I am valuable. Pay me what I'm worth. And then for me to be like, I...

Literally can't. But I think you should have a seat at the table, at the leadership table. Also, it's an unpaid position because it has to be, legally. What a conundrum to be in. And still, after the very public criticism that Living Room and Denise specifically received—

She sees it all as a positive experience. We took a really hard look at ourselves and what we were doing, and we made a lot of improvements. And I feel like it was really difficult, but also rewarding.

I'm glad it happened. In the end, Denise remained in her position at Living Room. And as we learned from Deanna, Denise took that storytelling class Deanna taught, which was a few months before the insurrection, January 6th, which Denise followed along from home. I was working from home. I actually had the news on. And it was...

horrifying. I mean, I was I was in college during 9-11. And it was very much that like, just just like your mouth open, like a gate just watching the TV like this. There's that separation between like this can't this isn't real. This isn't really happening. It can't be this is crazy. And it was this dichotomy of like, this is this terrifying thing happening.

And also like clowns are doing it. These people, these are the dumbest terrorists I've ever seen. But also they're terrorists. They're still terrorists. My brain was melting that day.

And then so the next day, you write a Facebook post with the picture of the QAnon shaman, a man wearing a fur pelt, brandishing the American flag, wearing horns. And along with a picture, you write, how am I supposed to work today when I just found out about Q shaman? When you made this post, what did you think the response would be? I guess I thought,

People would be like, yeah, this is crazy. Like, I guess like you typically are on social media where it's like, I'm commiserating. Yeah. So soon after you post this, you get a text from Deanna. And Deanna shares a screenshot of your Facebook post about the QAnon shaman incident.

And then she writes, Denise and your co-director's name don't ever, all caps, ever invite me to do another thing at Living Room while Denise is a director. What a disgrace. What do you feel when you receive this text? My heart drops in my stomach. Yeah.

You know, that feeling just when you've like really, really messed up. Yeah. I felt sick to my stomach. Now, you immediately call Deanna. She doesn't pick up. Right. How do you feel? Awful. Because I like to talk in those moments. I love texting. I love texting. But I think texting has its place.

And it is not for serious, heartfelt, nuanced conversations at all. Is that old school to call yourself a person who talks on the phone? No, this is quite literally what this whole social experiment podcast is built around. So I believe in it. I bow at the altar of the phone. It's direct. It's

Rooted in real time. You can't edit yourself. You can see someone's humanity more easily. I'm fully with you on the phone. Now, when she doesn't pick up, you do quite quickly write her a response. You open up to her and you say why you said it. You try to give context for why you made this post while also...

Explaining how you joke, apologizing if it came off as flippant. And also telling her I deleted it because I don't want to hurt anyone else. And I'm sorry that I hurt her. And yeah. Now you get no response. Right. You get no response for 12 days. Yeah. What's the vibe in these 12 days? How are you feeling? Um...

devastated. Just, I've really hurt her. I've really hurt this relationship.

I was just sick to my stomach. And I kept like asking my co-directors, like, should I just leave the organization? It seems like I am a problematic person. I am a bad person who is not sensitive to the feelings of people of color, of people who are different. I am the worst of what they say. Now, have you spoken to Deanna since? No, not yet.

Like, I obviously put out there several times, like, I'm here if you want to talk. And I tried to call her because I don't think the onus is just on one person. Like, maybe she does want to talk. But I really wanted to give her that space. And I also felt, you know, if someone thinks that I'm a disgrace, like,

I don't think they want anything to do with me. I don't think they want me reaching out an olive branch. If they decide for whatever reason they want to let me back in their life, then they will. So you're about to speak to Deanna for the first time since this all happened. How are you feeling about talking to her? I feel...

Nervous and anxious, but really hopeful and encouraged that she's willing to talk because I really thought that I would never talk to her again.

And now that I've spoken to both of them, it is time for the first time in months to connect them to each other. Hello. Hi. Hi. This is your first time speaking to each other since the text that brought us together in the first place. Is that right? Yes.

Yes. Yes, Dylan. You made that very dramatic. I wanted to. Come on. We live for the drama. Clearly. The rest of their conversation is coming right up. But first, let's take a quick break.

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We are back. And now, to the main event, Deanna and Denise's first voice-to-voice conversation since their text falling out. Now, I have a quick and unfortunate audio note. Something went wrong with Denise's mic during this group recording, and it completely wiped everything. That means that I had to resort to the backup mic, which is...

profoundly not my first choice. So Denise's audio is not ideal, but my incredible sound mixer Vincent Cacchione has done his very best to make it as listenable as possible. So I do ask for your grace and acceptance as you hear this different mic quality. Let's get on with it. Here is the conversation. So I guess just so we can set goals right at the top,

What is one thing you want to get out of this phone call, knowing that it is just one phone call and our lives will continue after this and more conversations can be had? But just for this phone call, what are you each looking to get out of it? Deanna would love for you to kick it off. For me, I think the thing that I'm curious about and concerned about is, was I fair?

And I don't need to mean that I need the validation that I was fair. I think sometimes that when we talk about being allies and being friends with, you know, people in different countries,

ethnic, racial groups or whatever, what is it that we can expect from people around us who may not have the same experiences as we do? And Denise, before we get to answering those questions, what are you hoping to get out of today? I think I came into this with a different headspace of I felt bad and sorry and I

pretty awful for a long time. So it almost like doesn't feel like it's about me. So I think what I really want is for Deanna to get what she needs out of this conversation and to gain some insight into that moment and, and everything after, because we can never understand what it feels like to be each other. So I, you know, I want, I want her to,

Yeah. OK, so on January 7th, the day after the insurrection, since Deanna and Denise are about to rehash what you just heard, I'm going to fast forward a little bit. I think one of the things that I have to own is that Denise did offer to speak. I was not in a space to speak at the time, so I didn't. I emailed or texted back a couple of weeks later saying,

But I was like on 10 when it came to anger. I probably have a worse pen than I do mouth. Unfortunately, it's much better if I just cuss you out and go about my way than if I write you like something because it's going to be horrible. Oh, my God.

I'm like, I hope these guys don't keep these texts, but they probably do. But here we are. I delete my side after a while. No, let's just make a podcast about it. That's what we'll do. Yes. I mean, you know, it is a way that I express myself, but it also is unfair not to complete the conversation. And so here we are.

Thank you. But I also understand why you didn't want to have a conversation at that time. I don't want to talk to somebody when I'm in a tent. So I understand not wanting to have the conversation at that time. 100%.

If I may offer an observation, and please correct me if you disagree, but it's like a theme that keeps coming up on these calls of seeing this one person as an avatar for blank, right? This comes up time and time again. People lash out at the symbol of what represents their oppressor. Yeah.

Even if they make $15,000 a year. Totally, totally. So, right. But a lot of times the casting... No power and everyone hates them. Exactly. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Totally. But to the specific question, do you think it's possible that

With the severity of that text that you sent to Denise, is it possible that she became that avatar for the quote unquote man just in that moment for you? Yes. The avatar of like, I perceived her more as the woke white woman and more than that.

the power hungry monster who's out to get everybody, right? Like I don't see her quite in that piece. And I think that that comes with a level of hurt and disappointment that

that is sometimes a little bit more difficult because it's like, not you too. Like, damn, okay, if you don't get it, does anybody get it? Like, what the blank? So I thought a lot about this over the past,

few years, really, that in the progressive community, I think there's a man, there's the man, there's institutions and governments and places that are, and people that are like

You're not going to make any headway with them. You can complain to them. You can bring a concern to them. You are going to be met with nothing. Silence or you're crazy. Stop complaining. Those people exist. They exist for me, too. But I think what has sort of happened is that I'm not the man, but I'm the attainable man, because as like a liberal woke person,

I'm going to listen and I'm going to take this seriously and I'm going to believe. And so like, I've seen a lot of progressives go after not the top institutions because they don't care. They absolutely do not care. But these liberal, like well-intentioned institutions and leaders, because like they are going to listen and take it seriously. And so I don't think I'm the man, but I think that I'm the man who's

They're there to listen. And then if it feels like I don't, it's going to feel like a huge betrayal.

So what is the next step forward specifically for the two of you, not for all people who find themselves in this situation? Because that's too big a question and no one is a monolith. No group is a monolith. So we can only answer just for you both. Right. What is the step forward for you two? I think for me, I really defer to Deanna on that. And I really I'm open. I'm open.

I'm here. I'm listening. And so I really like I think both personally and professionally, I think that I defer to I defer to her. I think that as a as an individual in response to your question, I would like to make sure that my responses are tempered in a way that they don't leave people confused.

just feeling bad, like Denise said she did at some point, especially if I'm not willing to have a further conversation about it at the time. I think it would have been...

a more fair thing for me to do, to wait and say, do I feel this way in three days or a week? And say, hey, I saw this post about a week ago. Let me explain this to you. So that is, I think, my personal challenge to myself. And then as far as each other are concerned, I think seeing each other as the professionals slash creatives that we are and navigating how we

those relationships work in the context of the world in which we live. Because I don't like hearing Denise say, my feelings don't matter, what I think doesn't matter, my experience is predominant. I don't think that's helpful either. And I don't believe that it's constructive because there's a level of kind of like, well, what I say doesn't matter anyway. I'm not saying that's the tone you took about it, but I do believe that

It does matter. And it comes with how you experience people of color and being a woman and all those other things in the world, too. So I don't think it's good enough to just say the person of color's position is different.

the absolute position. I think it just needs to be more of a conversation. So I think as a person of color, I need to leave room for conversation. I think that why people were kind of being told throughout last year, like, no, what you think doesn't matter. And I was like directly told that stuff, like your feelings don't matter. And I'm not saying that to gain sympathy. I'm just saying like,

I was told that several times, like how you feel is not relevant here and does not matter. And you're anything, any pain that you feel is not relevant here. And so I think

That certainly shaped my reaction for sure. But I had another thought. I don't know. I lost it, guys. I lost it. Deanna, you were in response to the hypothetical of like what you feel doesn't matter. You were rolling your eyes. Can you articulate what you were feeling there? Yeah, because I feel like, of course you matter. You're human. And I think that's kind of almost a cop out. Almost. Yeah.

It's like, yeah, you got to get in it and you got to make yourself matter. And how you make yourself matter is educating yourself and trying to become more conversant on these issues and, and,

you know, not just coming from a place of defensiveness or what you have attained, right? As far as information, especially if you don't have experience. So if you don't have experience with people of color, you haven't learned things. I don't think it's enough to just say what I think really doesn't matter. It's like,

okay, I've learned some things. So what I think is based on this, this, and this, you just may have to learn a little bit more versus saying it doesn't matter. And so I think that was my kind of response is like, here's what doesn't matter sounds like to me sometimes. I agree. It's a cop-out. Yeah. Yeah.

agree with you. I know now, Deanna, that what I feel and think does matter, but in the context of the world that we were living in at that time, I believed it. And it wasn't like, oh, I guess what I say doesn't matter. It was like, oh, gosh, what I, okay. I really, like, I was, like, internalizing it. Now I know what I think

what I think and feel does matter. Anyway, I remembered what I was going to say. So like we were talking about moving forward. And like I said, I'm open. I want to repeat that stuff too. But, but I also wanted to say, I am not going to be perfect. I am going to mess up again. I'm going to mess up in person. I'm going to mess up in social media. And I'm going to mess up because I am a human being and I'm

I know there's a lot of conversation right now about intent versus impact and that, you know, I hear a lot of people say like, it doesn't matter what your intention was. Like the impact is what matters. And the impact is super important when you hurt someone. But I do think the intentions matter. And it's why I don't write anything.

anyone off ever based on something on social media, because I do think what they're thinking at that time does matter. And that's not me defending myself, but it's like just my personal philosophy for life, because I think social media has ruined our brains.

But it's just that room to I want that room to be human. And I want to make sure that I'm giving people that same space to be a human and mess up. Yeah. And part of my humanity is anger. And like, you know, the angry black woman trope. I have totally accepted my angry black woman.

And the reason why is because a lot of people don't realize that to hurl that, oh, you're just being a sassy, angry, crazy black woman out of control, snapping your neck, rolling your eyes, whatever it is. Damn it is some stuff that if all I do is roll my eyes and raise my voice, we're lucky. As far as I'm concerned, I'm still might be containing a lot more anger. And so I think that,

Again, this is just like you're saying, you may not do it right. I probably won't always do it with a nice peach and cream effect either. Which is why I'm here. Right. Which is why I'm here. I could have just gone like, oh, well, she's angry and she's...

She hates me and she's crazy. She's crazy. And I'm dismissing that. Like, I just don't do that to people. Right. And I want to continue to not do that to people because anger is a part of who you are, who I am. And you get to feel that. And I hope that like you can continue to get angry with me and and that we can just.

Figure out a way to communicate that moves the needle forward or or communicate in a way that gets us somewhere, you know? Right. I think that's all we can hope. That's one of the things that drew me to you is that you you like complain to me about something. And I was like, yes, yes.

You're complaining to me. You're not like going to someone else and then letting it build up and boil over and then coming to me. Or you're not like passively aggressively talking on the internet. You told me like, I didn't like this. And I was like, ah,

thank you so much for letting me know. I am so sorry. And I can fix that. And so that, that's the relationship that I cherish and a professional and personally, that's how I like my relationships. And that's how I would love to move forward. Absolutely. Yeah. So Deanna, you did say, don't ever invite me to do another thing at living room writing center. Well, Denise is still a director and,

Is that still the case? No, it's not the case. And I think that, you know, we've had this conversation publicly, if you will. But I do think that I would like to...

to engage in a private conversation with Denise, but I think I would like to engage as professionals. And it doesn't mean I don't like her as a person, right? Like, I want to be like, oh, your haircut is cute today or whatever, you know? I think you got some pictures done. I'm like, oh, those are really awesome. You know, like I wouldn't, you know, personally, you know, have that banter and that rapport, but I also think that

Maybe reframing and being intentional about the fact that we have a professional relationship and what that means would be a good starting point for that. I think that's a great idea. Absolutely makes sense. And I like it.

Typically, I introduce Internet strangers to each other and you are not strangers to each other. You're going to continue to be in community with each other. Final thoughts you want to share with each other just for this call, knowing that your relationship is going to go on beyond this, but final thoughts just for today. We said a lot. We said a lot. We said a lot. I think this was good, productive. I got a lot of insights.

I got a lot of insight into Deanna's frame of mind and the deeper context of what happened between us. So I think it was really helpful and good for me. I

That the word disgrace is one that rolls, you know, how we they talk about how we get these these views of ourselves. And we a lot of them we get when we're young. Right. Somebody says something in passing to us and then we spend the next 40 years being like, that's what I am. Right.

For me, you know, I'm just a broken little Catholic girl. And I think for me, the word disgrace has been rolling around in my head for many months. And I think that this is a good chance for me to start to see myself in a different light and just that it's more complicated. And this was good for me.

good for me and and i i hope that it was also good for diana okay so about the word disgrace i self-admittedly am like i have a very harsh pen or thumb so i do apologize for the heavy language i mean in the scale of one to trump you are nowhere near a disgrace oh god

I like he's the 10. I love. Thank you for that. Like, no, no, no, no. He's like off the scale. Like we come on. Like we really. So I hope you and that's the thing, right? Like language, I think, is important in how we use it and weaponize it. So I apologize for

for using that word and I hope that the work you can do within yourself because I don't know that if I say no no no you're not a disgrace it still won't resonate you know because I words hit me like I have to do and I got to do my own shit to get rid of it so I apologize for putting that out there on you um and I do think that yeah just be careful with one another you know like

I'll try to be more careful with you. And what I mean is not be tentative, but use more care with other people. And I think that's why I wanted to have this conversation, because I didn't know if I handled you with enough care as another person. Right. Yeah.

as a woke white woman, you know, but as Denise, the person, I don't know. I did not believe that I handled you with the care that I would want, especially having not given you the benefit of furthering the conversation. So I think that is something I think we can all take. It's just handle everybody kind of like the way you want to be treated. I don't want to be called a disgrace.

just like I knew enough to know that I wouldn't want to be treated the way I saw you being treated on the internet. So I think just like I could see that in someone else doing it, I needed to kind of rectify my own behavior and own up to it. So hopefully, oh, if I haven't apologized full-throatedly, I am apologizing. I do apologize to you, Denise, for A,

speaking to you out of anger because I don't believe that you did post that to harm me and you did not cause any harm. I was harmed when I saw it. And so it just got a response out of me, but you did not cause me harm.

let's be very clear about that so I think I kind of always had a little bit of a like no no no you didn't cause me any harm the harm was caused and I had a reaction to your reaction but the harm was not by your hands at all so yes I do apologize for being so harsh in that manner and um

I hope you can accept my apology and just look forward to moving forward. Absolutely. I do. And, you know, I also apologize for whether it doesn't matter how I intended it. It was a reflection of me, my leadership. And you may have been already harmed, but it didn't help. It was more it was it was the cherry on top of the harm, the harm sundae.

So I apologize that it doesn't matter what I intended. You were hurt. And so I obviously I'm so sorry about that. And thank you. I really appreciate it.

You did it, Dylan. You did it. I know what I was going to say. Thank you for doing this. Can I, can I, this is, sorry, I did want to say one more thing. Denise, you know, I brought this to Dylan. Not sure if you would want to participate. And I know, again, I do see you as a professional and I do see this as something attached to your work.

your livelihood, your reputation, you know, your thing thing. So I appreciate you, you know, taking the time and having the courage to talk about something difficult in a way that is kind of probably has a little bit more gravity for you than it may to me. So thank you. Thank you for being willing to do this. Thank you. Wow. This was really cool. I just want to say I really appreciate

both of you taking the time and energy to do this. I know this is a big ask. You know, this is like you're coming on a stranger's show and having a really intimate conversation about some really personal stuff. And I honestly cannot thank you enough.

So with that being said, I am so appreciative and bye. And I hope we'll all cross paths again soon. So bye. Goodbye. Bye. Thank you, Dylan. Thank you, Dylan. Thank you, Diana. Thank you, Denise. If you have an idea for a conversation for this show, head on over to www.conversationswithpeoplewhohateme.com and fill out the brief submission form.

Conversations with People Who Hate Me is a part of the TED Audio Collective. This episode was mixed by Vincent Cacchione. The theme song is These Dark Times by Caged Animals. The logo was designed by Philip Blackowl with a photo by Mindy Tucker. And this show is made by me, Dylan Marron.

You can pre-order Conversations with People Who Hate Me, the book, by following the link in the description of this episode, or you can buy it wherever you buy books. Thank you so much for listening, and guess what? We are weekly now, so stay tuned next week for a brand new conversation. And until then, remember, there's a human on the other side of the screen. We're racing, racing through these dark times. It's hard to believe.

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incredibly lightweight shoes that have really soft cushioning. It feels just right when I'm hitting my running trail that's just out behind my house. You now can take your daily run in the Better Than Ever Go 16. You can visit brookscrunning.com to learn more. PR.