How engaging with the natural world benefits you-- and science (with Mary Ellen Hannibal)
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TED Audio Collective. You're listening to How to Be a Better Human. I'm your host, Chris Duffy. So a few years ago, I moved from New York, where I grew up, to Los Angeles. And among the many new things that I had to get used to here in LA was a completely new environment and natural surroundings. One night, I was lying in bed when I thought I heard an intruder on our roof. I heard someone walking around up there.

But then when I went outside to investigate, when I shined my flashlight up on the roof, I did not find a burglar. Instead, there was a coyote up there. I didn't even know coyotes were a real thing outside of cartoons. I'd never seen one growing up in New York. But here was one staring right back at me before it jumped back onto the hillside and kind of slinked away into the bushes. That experience got me thinking about how I want to and probably need to engage more with my natural environment. What are these plants around me?

What are these bugs? Who are these birds? I'm trying to ask more questions. I'm trying to learn more about what is happening in the natural world that I live in.

And today's guest, Mary Ellen Hannibal, she is all about that curiosity. In fact, she wrote a book about how engaging your own curiosity about the natural world can serve not just you, but also something much larger and contribute to science. She gave a fantastic talk at TEDxStanford about how getting regular people involved in citizen science can help everyone to understand more about and prevent species loss and extinction.

Here's a clip. My journey to becoming a citizen scientist took me to the spine of the continent. That's this vast mega linkage of the Rockies from Alaska all the way down to Mexico.

The pronghorn antelope is the second fastest land animal on the earth, bested only by an African cheetah. And it's so fast because it evolved with an American cheetah that no longer exists. There's a single herd of antelope that makes a single migration in Wyoming. They spend the summer in Jackson Hole, who wouldn't, right? And then they go south. And there were some scientists studying this herd of antelope and noticing in the southern part of the range that there were carcasses of them all over the place.

and it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the reason. They didn't just get politicians to support it, they didn't just connect with non-profit activists, they most importantly connected with regular people like you and I who live near or along the path of the pronghorn. Of course we want to protect the path of the pronghorn, of course we want to be part of this beautiful historic life history of this animal. The path of the pronghorn today has protection,

And we have to do that a lot more. There's lots of different ways to get involved with citizen science. If you don't want to do it technologically, there's lots of other ways to do it. The important thing is I want you to know that we need to save nature and that it's a mob sourced thing. What we want to do is create this big biodiversity observation network.

There's an instrument for that. It's our eyes. We do it together. When we get this, we get data for all these kinds of species. You can see these patterns of how life is unfolding, get predictions of where extinctions are happening, and then make surgical strikes like protections like the path of the pronghorn to help those animals and plants. It is not just about collecting data. Citizen science is also a practice, a practice that can help us do something that is very important.

which is to get in better healthier alignment with our own place in the cycle of life okay we're gonna be right back with more from mary allen hannibal after this short break

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Hello, hello. I'm Malik. I'm Jamie. And this is World Gone Wrong, where we discuss the unprecedented times we're living through. Can your manager still schedule you for night shifts after that werewolf bit you? My ex-boyfriend was replaced by an alien body snatcher, but I think I like him better now. Who is this dude showing up in everyone's old pictures? My friend says the sewer alligators are reading maps now. When did the kudzu start making that humming sound?

We are just your normal millennial roommates processing our feelings about a chaotic world in front of some microphones. World Gone Wrong, a new fiction podcast from Audacious Machine Creative, creators of Unwell, a Midwestern Gothic Mystery. Learn more at audaciousmachinecreative.com. Find World Gone Wrong in all the regular places you find podcasts. I love you so much.

I mean, you could like up the energy a little bit. You could up the energy. I actually don't take notes. That was good. I'm just kidding. You sounded great. So did you. And we are back. We're talking about citizen science and species loss and extinction. I'm Mary Ellen Hannibal. I'm an author and journalist. My most recent book is Citizen Scientist, Searching for Heroes and Hope in an Age of Extinction. And I'm an avid citizen scientist myself.

So let's start with the most obvious first question. I'm sure everyone asks you this, which is what is citizen science? So citizen science in the most simple way of putting it is regular people contributing to science.

But it is kind of much more than that. Citizen science can be about anything. One of the earliest platforms for it was Zooniverse. And regular people could actually look at the night sky through their computers and find galaxies that computer detectors can't see. Because the human eye actually detects galaxies better than computers do.

So that's one of the ways that citizen science works is like through a kind of tagging of things that you can see through your computer that help create these gigantic databases.

But another way of looking at it is that citizen science is a way of really connecting to the natural world. I'm really focused on the natural world and biodiversity and collecting observations about it to understand what's happening out there and what's growing, what's dying, how things are, how species are adapting to climate change and what we can do about it.

And I've heard the term community science. How are citizen science and community science different or are they the same? Well, that's a great question. And it goes to the heart of kind of the debate and the sort of burgeoningness of citizen science. So actually, community science is something that's been around for a really long time, too, as its own category. And it really reflects small communities or bounded communities. Let's put it that way. Getting together to solve a local problem. Sometimes it's called street science.

Which I really like. You might remember a couple of years ago, and this battle is still going on in Flint, Michigan, when the water quality was bad and the local mothers got together and said, this water is poisoning our children. And they connected with a scientist from Virginia. Yeah.

who helped them create a protocol to study that water and then get data and show it to the city officials. That's community science. Citizen science is in general a bigger term. And what I like about the term citizen science is that it both captures the individual person and then also really the global impact and global participation that it allows.

To me, it's about being a plane member and citizen of the earth. Yeah. The whole earth and with all the other species and creatures. And citizen to me is a positive word that's both positive. It's both personal. It's the individual, but it also describes belonging. Well, so let's talk a little bit more about iNaturalist since I know that that is something that you really care about. And I find it interesting because to me,

I did not download it because I was doing the research on you. I downloaded it before because someone told me, oh, here's this free app where when you're walking around and you want to know what type of tree that is, you can just take a photo of it and it magically tells you what type of tree it is. And then once you upload it, if it turns out that the automatic AI thing was wrong, regular people will be like, no, that's actually not an oak tree. It's an elm tree or something. And so I

I moved to a new environment. I moved across the country. So I was in Southern, I'm in Southern California and I didn't know what the trees, what the plants were. And now I walk around and I can just say like, oh, actually I know that is a jacaranda. That is a loquat tree. And it's interesting to think that those photos that I'm uploading are actually a source of data for scientists who are using them. And like, I'm putting this in big quotes, but serious science rather than me just saying like, I wonder what that is.

So are you in Los Angeles area? Yeah, I'm in Los Angeles area. People may be surprised to hear it's really a fabulous place to be for biodiversity. It's actually extremely biodiverse. And you can drive or take the bus pretty easily out of town and get into the mountains or then also to the ocean. Definitely.

So, yeah, you have a world to discover. Also, Los Angeles is a great place of really seeing where the urban and wildland interface come together. But yeah, iNaturalist is a great learning and discovery tool, and it's accessible everywhere. There is an app that the same folks produce called Seek.

And Seek will, you put your phone right over something and it will immediately tell you what it is. You don't have to say, yes, I want to know. Seek is different for my naturalist in that it does not geolocate you. So it does not put your exact location in with the data from the photograph. Now, for the scientific reasons, we need to have your location, right? That's the whole thing about science is exactly where, exactly when, exactly what.

So how did they get there and why are they there and how did evolution unfold and is unfolding? So knowing exactly where species are, when and where is the key to really unfolding this vast genealogy of life. Why is this actually so important? Why is this not just kind of like a neat thing, but instead a vital tool?

So, I mean, right now, you're in Southern California, so you're kind of at the moment, but maybe not for long, being spared the swirling smoke from the wildfires that are consuming the West. But, you know, wildfires in the West are here to stay. It's a product of climate change and also of fire suppression for several hundred years.

But as the climate is changing, the species that grow here is also changing. Just as you are discovering new plants and animals when you come from New York to LA, actually the plants that you're seeing, some of them won't be adapted to where you are even within 30 years.

So that's what we need to know. Like what species are here? Which ones are persisting as the climate is changing? How long will they be able to persist? And as we plant and address trying to keep this landscape more resilient, what should we plant? We shouldn't plant trees that are no longer going to be able to live here, but we should plant trees that are going to be able to live here and yet still will bring in all the birds and the bugs that we also want.

So you've talked about how citizen science is a way of documenting these changes, right? Like you talked about how when we started documenting through citizen science the monarch butterfly, we not only understood a lot more about their migratory pattern, including this amazing five generations long journey, but also we understood that the numbers were dropping dramatically. So

documenting it through citizen science, that makes a ton of sense to me because, of course, right, millions of people all doing this using technology that they have in their pockets, that's going to be a lot more efficient than 10 scientists with very fancy equipment, but who can only be in 10 places. The thing that I wonder about, though, is how can we go beyond documenting the loss of species and loss of biodiversity to stopping it? Is that connected to

citizen science, or is that a separate thing? How do you see the relationship? Well, thank you for asking that question, Chris, and also bringing up the monarch. The monarch is, I think, going to be our avatar of change because it's teaching us so much. And also it's

It's inspiring so much. So here in the Bay Area, for example, we really have these terrible, terrible, this Western monarch population is probably gone from here for the moment. Maybe it will be able to come back, maybe not.

But what this has done, the people that have documented it, the regular people are also all over the place organizing to understand what's happening to monarch butterflies. How can we provide better habitat for them? How can we help them get to where they need to go? And this occurs on a lot of different levels. It's actually a super interesting thing because sometimes

people get together to do something on behalf of a species that may not be that great of an idea to do. And so I see in the monarch world some conflict and discussion over what's the right thing to do for monarchs. I hear the problems with that, but it also seems like, taking one step back from that, there is this interesting thing where by documenting the monarch butterfly,

Now people were emotionally invested enough that they wanted to do something like I'm going to in my yard plant something new. So obviously the solution was not right, right? They should have planted the local, the native milkweed rather than the tropical one, but

That's kind of a big deal, it seems to me, to have people instead of viewing it as distant, like, what can you do? They're like, oh, I can play a role in helping the moderns. The other thing, though, is, yeah, it's even beyond that because we have to look at the whole migration of the butterfly, right? This is a very important concept of connectivity, right?

that plants and animals, even plants that seem not to move, need movement corridors to connect to others of their own kind. And so even if you're a plant, you know, you need to be pollinated by a plant from somewhere else. You need a bee to come and help you do that or a butterfly. And so we need to have these networks of connection for nature, just like we have them through roadways for ourselves. But where should those be? Citizen science tells us where they should be.

Okay, we're gonna talk a lot more about citizen science, how we can get involved and how we can all prevent species loss in just a moment. But first, a short break. Do not go anywhere.

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And we're back with Mary Ellen Hannibal. So it's interesting on kind of a meta level here or a slightly higher level here that, you know, for years I've been a comedian who's interviewed scientists. That's been one of the big things that I do. That's funny. Yeah, is getting scientists and then making jokes about their research and trying it to be trying to make things that are funny, but there are also anecdotal.

actually get regular people to hear from scientists. And I found that, you know, one of the things that's fantastic about comedy is it's a tool that gets people to come in and be excited. So, you know, maybe they come and see one of my shows and they feel like they're at a comedy show, but secretly they were actually at a lesson on, you know, structural engineering they would have not gone to on a Friday night. And I'm not trying to teach them to be clear. I am not a scientist. I don't have a science background, but

But something that I've really found in my time interviewing scientists and trying to get the general public to hear from them is that I think a lot of people, they don't explicitly think that scientists aren't people. But I think a lot of people have this idea in the back of their head that like scientists are kind of like fact checking robots.

And I think when people have that idea and they don't see that it's like driven by curiosity and that you find something and it actually is confusing, right? Like, oh, well, what the monarch butterfly needs is milkweed. So we planted the milkweed. Oh, but it's actually not helping. Then I think a lot of people go like, well, the robot got it wrong.

As opposed to, it's a process like for all of us of learning and improving and it's driven by curiosity and interests and all sorts of things. It's not just like, I know the answer and I'm different than you. And that trial and error process is very much a part of

academic science as well as citizen science. It's fine if we're going to make mistakes, that's okay. You know, we have to be able to make mistakes and that's how we're learning on a different scale. And that's really because, as you said, you can't have, you know, these are vast landscapes that we need information from and there's just not enough time for scientists themselves to be out there with a few field assistants.

But I think that there's a sort of back and forth thing. And sometimes scientists themselves are resistant to the idea of citizen science. Now, I think that's really kind of an older generation because what they're not understanding is big data.

And that the way that we have to look at, especially environmental problems, is we need incredible amounts of data and need to use these vast statistical analysis and computing power to crunch the numbers to see the patterns.

And they're not viewing things at that scale in their particular research. So they're saying, oh, you couldn't help me with my research. You don't have a PhD. But they're not understanding, oh, we could get you data that you cannot get any other way. Yeah, it's interesting because there is a balance that's kind of a tough balance to strike sometimes between respecting authority in terms of like,

the research and the time and the expertise, right? So that's like, oh, well, you did learn something in all of those years of schooling and PhD versus democratizing access to information, right? So I think...

Sometimes it seems like people are afraid that if they say everyone can be involved, then it seems like, well, then anyone can also make the definitive thing. And that's how you end up with a lot of these very anti-scientific moments where people go like, you say that's the cure for a disease. I actually disagree. I'm going to make my own cure. And it's dangerous and totally counterproductive. But

The idea that science is collaborative and there's not like a bright line between this type of person is a scientist and this type of person isn't. That seems very helpful to me. I feel like I have to ask this because we've

I assume this is the answer, but we've talked so much about iNaturalist and how great iNaturalist is. You're not like sponsored by iNaturalist, are you? No, not at all. And I will say that I think there are, I think it's just like the easiest tool for most people. And if you're not also in a community where other people are doing it, it can be kind of lonely on your own. Although there is a community through iNaturalist. So it's not everything at all. And, you know, you used a wonderful phrase, democratizing everything.

access to information. That's really what citizen science is. So, I mean, what we want is a more educated populace that can ask questions about, well, what is information for? Who gets it? And how are those scientists coming to their conclusions? You raise an important thing, Chris, that I just want to make sure we touch on, which is sometimes it can be like what we're asking people to do as citizen scientists is just collect data. But

You can use the data yourself. You can ask questions with it. Now, eBird is a product of the Cornell Lab of Ornithology. And I should look up how many observations of birds

that Cornell has collected thanks to regular people who are avid bird watchers for more than 100 years. Oh, yeah. Based on the birders that I know, I feel like each individual person could contribute thousands alone. I know. And they, eBird doesn't, you know, you can take a photograph and upload it to eBird. But a lot of these people don't take photographs. They just know what the birds are.

And then there's so many people making those observations that if they're wrong, again, it gets corrected by this, the big statistical process of, of actually that couldn't be that kind of warbler because they're never here at that time of year. If they are and it's unusual, then other people need to see it too. That kind of thing. But there's, there's a, there's places on, on that Cornell lab of ornithology website that,

Also, that can lead you to sources for using the data yourself for your own questions. What are three ways that regular people can get involved with citizen science? One way is to put iNaturalist on your phone and just go out and observe nature.

Great. Another way is to be involved with restoration projects. And two, you can look up on Google restoration near me where I live in San Francisco, Golden Gate National Parks, the Presidio, the city all offer ways to help restore ecosystems. That means pulling plants usually and then planting other plants. And this way you are helping to create habitat for the species. We want to help them live their life.

We've got to make sure you're not going to restoration hardware. Instead, we're going to environmental restoration. Yeah, no. We should get restoration hardware doing citizen science around their megastores. That would be a great idea. Certainly seems like there's a branding overlap there. People from restoration hardware, get in contact with Mariella. Yeah, do. I will help you figure that out. One thing, actually, Chris, I think is interesting. Going to a mall, I teach citizen science and engineering.

to college students. And sometimes they're really so out of touch with nature that once they start using iNaturalist, they start taking pictures of

potted plants at shopping malls. And I say, that's fine, but let's get you, you know, out a little farther out into, but it's actually important information anyway, to see what's, what's hardy at your mall. What, what weeds are coming up through the asphalt at the mall because weeds are super important for wildlife. Some are good and some are bad for wildlife. That's actually important piece of information. So it's,

We take nature where we find it, and it actually is everywhere. With the idea of nature being everywhere, often there are neighborhoods that have more nature than others. So how does the environmental justice piece tie into that? Well, thank you for asking that. It's such a great intersection of what citizen science is because it's really at the juncture of so many issues. One is environmental and social justice.

So, yes, you live in a neighborhood where there aren't that many trees and maybe you are at a disadvantage for your health, your longevity, your emotional well-being compared to someone who lives in a neighborhood with more trees. But how are you going to go to City Hall and say,

Hey, we don't have enough trees here. Well, you do that with data, right? You go and you do a study yourself and you say, okay, we're going to comb this neighborhood in 10 square blocks. We're going to observe all of the trees that there are in 10 square blocks here. Then we're going to go over to this other community and we're going to do the same thing. And now, of course, you want to do that carefully.

and not in a hostile way. And you want to then show there is so much more biodiversity in this other neighborhood. We need to have the same kind of resources, the same kind of plantings. So it's fair. It's a fairness thing. Everybody should have same access to the same amounts of nature.

A related question is, how can we highlight the role of indigenous knowledge in citizen science and make sure that it's better incorporated into these efforts moving forward? When I was writing my book on citizen science, it really, my mind was kind of blown by this indigenous knowledge, partly because indigenous knowledge, which sometimes is called traditional ecological knowledge, and all across the

the whole globe, Indigenous cultures have passed down information generation to generation to generation about how to live within the natural environment. I think one of the most important ways to understand or to absorb the wisdom of Indigenous cultures is to think of a couple things that Indigenous cultures really did that we didn't do. First of all, pass down information for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of countless generations.

You know, we don't do that. So we don't, we've changed our world so much and we're such a mobile community and mobile, you know, so there's that.

The other thing is to work in consort or in some kind of balance with nature itself. We do that more ways than we think. Like, you know, right now all the kids are going back to school and all the birds are migrating too. It's as if we took a cue that now is the time to go get resources beyond home, to go out, and then we'll come back. You know, that there's a cycle of resource allocation and resources

Everything that goes around comes around. So we live, we live seasonally to a certain extent anyway, but to more deeply get into what that means. It's interesting because I hadn't thought of this before you were talking about the ways in which citizen science and, uh,

environmental justice and indigenous knowledge intersect. And it feels like maybe there's a level here where indigenous groups have for years been talking about how construction projects and pipelines and dams have really damaged the environment and made some really, really

critical mistakes in terms of nature. And that hasn't been listened to as seriously by the majority population. So maybe then when you combine the technology of being able to document these things with platforms on your phone and with technology, all of a sudden there's some kind of irrefutable proof that gets people to listen in a way that's new. I don't know. That's possible. I hadn't thought of that overlap.

No, it's a really important overlap because we have kind of parallel things going on here. One is kind of a discovery in our own hearts and minds about how this world really works and that the building of dams, as you reference, the laying down of pipelines, it's not only disturbing sacred land,

and sacred territories, it's also impacting nature far beyond where those things occur. So right now we're looking at Lake Mead dropping to these historic lows. We're looking at California and the West as just gonna be choking on no water, partly because of the way we have diverted water in the past and still do.

So it's that way of understanding this is all connected. And then it's also like, how are we going to get this changed? And you are right. We need data. That's what we need. You have to have data. You have to prove it. Because, and this is in the end, it's really a good thing. One of the things that I find really exciting about citizen science is it overlaps really with citizen mapping.

And the map is the place where data meets the story, right? But maps were also the way that territory has been stolen from other people by people. And today it is vastly democratized by technology. We can really see, you know, and there's wonderful work being done with native peoples in Canada, making maps of traditional territories that not only have

They have the place names. They have the stories in them. You know, you can click on a place and you can hear the traditional story about that place. But you can also see the fishing rights there and all of the, you know, kinds of rules and regulations that that fishing community has to live by. All of that is integrated. But you cannot now go into that community and say, oh, nobody lives here because there's no name on a map.

Well, now there's a lot of names on maps. Just a couple of quick questions for you before we let you go. What gives you the most hope for citizen science? You know, I think, Chris, it brings it back to your good questions about indigenous cultures. And I think citizen science has the capacity to make what can seem global and overwhelming personal and joyful experiences.

and really help us grapple with the negatives of human history and kind of turn them around. - And then the flip side, what scares you most about the loss of the natural world right now? - Well, I am, people always ask me about whether I think we're gonna make it through this or not. - And of course the answer is like, none of us make it through, right? We all die. So the question is, can we help the earth to make it through, not us really.

Well, that's really true. But I am worried. I think humanity will survive what we're going through now. It's terrible and it may get a lot worse. Humans are incredibly resourceful and adaptive. My biggest fear is that we will reduce biodiversity to a handful of species that will be also adaptive, like coyotes and rats.

There'll be maybe a few bird species. That this vast and beautiful, incredible creation

That is just such a joy to discover that that incredible, you know, palette of color and life will be reduced to something very simple and not beautiful. I think it's really scary because I think it will cut off a lot of our potential for joy and love and connection to just forget that there's this natural world from which we issue. So I'm worried about that.

So what is one idea or book or movie or piece of music or anything? What's one thing that has made you a better human? So that's kind of a big question. Thank you for asking it. Fire has made me a better human. Fire and understanding how to live with it here in California, that we can live with it, has helped me move beyond a total fear, frozen dread, get me out of here feeling into

to, oh, this is a natural, fundamental part of biology, fire, and we can live with it and we need to honor it. And I can find my place here that will hopefully be safe, but safe is relative now. Fire is helping me become a person who is more resilient to the challenges we are all facing.

I love that answer. Also, what a badass answer. I love it. What the...

One thing I love about this question is like some people are like Harry Potter and you were like fire. Oh, that's so cool. I love that. I love that so much. Well, Mary Ellen Hannibal, thank you so much for being on the show. Her book is called Citizen Scientists Searching for Heroes and Hope in an Age of Extinction. It has been such a pleasure talking with you and I really appreciate making the time to be here. Thank you. I really appreciate talking with you and I hope you enjoy L.A. because there's a lot there.

That is it for today's episode. I'm your host, Chris Duffy, and this has been How to Be a Better Human. Thanks so much to our guest, Mary Ellen Hannibal. Her new book is called Citizen Scientist.

searching for heroes and hope in an age of extinction. On the TED side, this show is brought to you by Abhimanyu Das, who is preparing to hibernate for winter, Daniela Balarezo, who's being tracked by a team of amateur scientists, Frederica Elizabeth Yosefov, who migrates across the continent alongside the monarchs, Anne Powers, who is perfectly camouflaged for her environment, and Cara Newman,

who's on top of your roof right now. From PRX Productions, How to Be a Better Human is brought to you by the biodiverse Jocelyn Gonzalez, the perfectly adapted Pedro Rafael Rosado, and the scientifically identified Sandra Lopez-Monsalve. Thanks to you for listening. Please share this episode with someone you know who is curious about the natural world around them.

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