'The Penguin' Midseason Superlatives | House of R
01:27:28 Share

This message is a paid partnership with Apple card. If you want to take control of your finances, Apple card is where it starts. It's a credit card that can give you up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase. And I've had it for a few years. First of all, great. If you're buying anything from Apple, iPad, computer, whatever phone, but, uh,

This daily cash just pops back up. All of a sudden you're like, wait, what's that balance? I'm going to use that. Super easy to use, super easy to make payments, and super easy to understand that 3% daily cash back on your purchases is a really nice perk. Apply for an Apple Card today. It's easy. Just go to the Wallet app on your iPhone. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

Greetings!

And welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only to Gotham, but also back into the House of R. Joining me today, Jesus, Vic, she said no cilantro! It's Joanna Robinson. Oh, I wish I were here under better circumstances, but here I am, Mallory Rubin, to talk to you about The Penguin. We are only...

Four weeks late, but here we are. Right on time. Talk about Penguin. We love a mid-season check-in. We do. Well... We do. I mean, it's, you know...

It's going to be great. We're excited. We're actually very jacked. We really like Penguin and we're excited to be here. It's sad to have taken four weeks, but now it's fun to have that mid-season moment to do a celebratory check-in of what we've enjoyed about the show so far. We will be doing mid-season superlatives. So we have some categories as usual in an awards-based episode. I don't know what Jo has picked for each category. She doesn't know what I have

picked for each category. We will be surprising each other as we go. It's gonna be a blast. Grab your martinis. Before we do that, though, before we ask Johnny how the fucking's going, some quick programming reminders over on the Ringerverse. Mid-edition. We've got a comics check-in and a Y'all Yelled About It episode. Thrilling stuff.

Then we also have a Midnight Boys Pew Pew episode on Penguin episode four and Agatha episode six. That'll be up for you on Thursday. Here on the House of R on Friday, we will be back for our Agatha episode six deep dive. No, we are not prepared to cope with the fact that we only have three weeks of Agatha. Four episodes, but three weeks. Devastating. You can find...

full video episodes of both the Midnight Boys Pew Pew and House of R on Spotify. You can watch the episodes on Spotify or on the newish Ringerverse YouTube channel. So check out that channel, hit that subscribe button. Joe, where else can everybody follow along?

So glad you asked. I mean, if you're not watching us on the Spotify app, which is just a real joy and a delight to do, you can just go ahead and follow us on social. Why don't you do that? Why don't you follow us on social? Why don't you see clips of us, of the Midnight Boys, of whatever else is going on, pop up on Instagram, on TikTok, on Twitter. I don't know if you have this experience where like sometimes I just get, because I don't follow our channels. You should follow our channels. I don't because like,

I don't, I'm not like, I want to see my face necessarily scroll up on the feed and then sometimes I'll just be on TikTok and I'm like, ah, and it's the ringer verse. And I'm like, oh my God, it's us. Natively served to me. Anyway, you should follow us on social. You should subscribe to the pod. Why don't you do that? That's a really good idea. Wherever you get your podcasts, hopefully Spotify, but wherever you get your podcasts, subscribe to the pod. I think that's a great idea. And then also,

The inbox is always open. You guys, I think we're a little blindsided by us taking on the penguins, so we don't have any penguin emails from y'all, but hopefully as we continue to check in on the season, we'll hear some of your penguin thoughts. But hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com.

where you will find us. Not suicideslushies at gmail.com, but hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. And you can send us your Oz thoughts, send us your Sophia thoughts, send us your Gotham thoughts. We would love to hear them. Are you a slushie mixer? No, never. Yeah. Never not. Well, no, that's not true. I mean, you can mix like a blue raspberry and a cherry. I think that would be like a good mix. That's a reasonable combo. You don't think so? One of the most agonizing moments in my life. Oh,

literally every time I go to a movie theater because yes as a woman in my late 30s I'm still getting an icy every time I go to the theater is is it a blue raspberry day or is it a cherry day so interesting to consider why not both I don't know I'm a purist I don't really like to mix ice cream scoops either I'm like I will have a pint of this one flavor last night because it's 9 30 on a given weekday last night because I'm a really good and virtuous person I went uh

to like fill out my mail-in ballot at a restaurant last night with my best friend. And we rewarded ourselves with soft serve and I got a, yeah, I got a swirl. Soft serve? A swirl. A soft serve swirl is a beautiful thing. Though I do just typically go vanilla. But a soft serve swirl feels, yeah, this is okay. Interesting. Cool.

Quick question before, I mean, we're meant to be speeding along here. Yes, it's classic. I'm slowing up the works a little bit. But Malib Rubin, can you give the listeners like one minute on Heartstopper? Oh, okay. I thought we were going to do this on the Agatha pod tomorrow. 14 will be in our lives. Okay. Give me one minute now and then more later.

Let me think. Four days ago? Five days ago? Yeah, not too long ago. Heartstopper was not a part of my life, and now I have two episodes remaining over three seasons. Yeah.

I've been tearing through it, loving it, adoring it, texting you routinely throughout. Now that I only have two left, I find it very difficult to stop watching, but I'm grieving that I'll be caught up. So I may give it a night or two before I watch the final two episodes of season three. Though I was thinking it would be fun to be finished before the Agatha pod tomorrow, but I don't know if that'll be possible. We'll see. I'm loving it. It is absolutely delightful. Beautiful, wonderful, charming, clever, amazing.

extremely, extremely, extremely wonderful. I have recommended it to multiple people and I've loved my time with it. Hell yes. All right. Well, Mallory's joined the Heartstopper Hive. We could not be more thrilled and I will miss the text as you're watching, I will say. I'll text you again when I rewatch it. Fear not. Fear not. Spoiler warning.

Let's do it. No specific plot points from Heartstopper coming today. However, we will be talking about everything that happened in, or many of the things that happened in the first four episodes of The Penguin. If it happened in Matt Reeves' Batman, it might come up today. Some DC Comics canon could perhaps come up today. You know, you're here for a mid-season check-on on a show that's four episodes in. So all the things that you think might come up today. Correct. That's in the spoiler warning. All right, Joe. Daddy said there'd be cake. Let's pod. Let's pod.

Joanna Robinson. Molly Rubin. We're here to discuss The Penguin, the eight-episode limited series from HBO. This is, of course, a spinoff from 2002's... It's 2002. 2022 is The Batman. I was about to say. 2022, it shocked me to confront that The Batman came out two and a half years ago.

I can't believe I was at The Ringer. Like, I know that I just celebrated my three-year anniversary at The Ringer, but... So does this feel... Does that movie feel like a long time ago to you? It feels to me like it was three months ago. It feels way more recent than two and a half years ago. Yeah. Yeah.

So our lives are melting away and that's difficult to confront. But we have been enjoying this television program. And so there's some happy stuff to discuss today as well. This show picks up immediately after the events of the Batman film. We're picking up with news footage from the moments and days after the Riddler's attack, Carmine Falcone's death. And then eventually the thrust of this season picks up one week after those events.

Again, eight-episode season, we're at the mid-season mark. That means we're talking about four episodes. So if you have not seen the fourth episode this past Sunday's episode, catch up on all of that because we're not going in a chronological order through the episodes. We're doing superlatives. We might talk about episode four right from the beginning. It's entirely possible. Before we hit our superlatives, Jo, do you want to just give a little...

classic opening snapshot, a moose bush, quick taste. Like what are your impressions of this show through four episodes? I also want to make it clear that I have not personally had a slushy or an icy in like, I would say a decade, but I support you in, in that. And I'm probably depriving myself, but, um, uh, we're getting one next week. Yeah. At Venom. Yes. Okay. At the Venom screening. Yes.

Plan accordingly. Great. I'll take my medicine. So, okay. So we're here to talk to you about the penguin. I'm really thrilled to do so. And I think, what do I want to say? I want to say that I will say I got snagged on episode one for a while. I watched episode one a long time ago and like didn't feel extremely motivated to get past it.

and then we weren't covering it. So I wasn't like getting into it. And then we were going to cover it. And I binged, I went back and rewatched one and binged all the way through. And I had,

a great time. Yeah. And three and four are just like genuinely phenomenal episodes of television. Like one, one is still like a little slow. You're like, I'm happy back in Gotham. I, we loved the Batman. I would say the Batman, Matt Reeves, the Batman is my second favorite Batman movie. Like I loved that movie. So to get to be back in that Gotham is thrilling. Um, to get to be with, uh, this, uh,

extraordinarily gonzo performance from colin farrell is is astonishing it's wonderful i'm a huge chris amelioti fan so uh sofia falcone is just like incredible bring hopefully like like as you're sitting here twitching and jonesing for your next uh hit of rio vidal from agatha you can get your yes

Psycho gleam in the eyes experience with Sophia Falcone. Yeah, and I think the combination of... I mean, like Craig Zobel, who directed the first three episodes, and Helen Shaver, who directed episode four, are phenomenal TV directors. So they just got, like, incredible talent to work on the show sort of visually. I think the homages to...

Other gangster media is quite fun. Like the overbearing mother. I haven't seen The Sopranos famously, but I do know. We are infamously. I do know.

That Tony Soprano has a terrible overbearing mother. Boy, does he. So, you know, or Chrissy Mugliati giving me like Talia Shire and the Godfather energy constantly. Or the Sinatra playing during a heist and giving us like Scorsese. Like all of that stuff is quite fun. Yeah.

The Wire parallels, which, you know, anyone who follows the Midnight Boys pew-pew closely will tell you that Dave and Simon, like, waited on the Midnight Boys discussion about The Wire. Incredible, incredible. The Wire's relationship to the Batman. So all of that stuff in the mix, I think, is quite fun. And it is also just...

an emotionally rich tapestry. I think these characters, if we want to call, I think we have to call Oz and Victor and Sophia, like our, our three leads of the show and these three damaged, broken people who are capable of very bad things, but also have us like our hearts yearning for them to find connection is an incredible trick. This, this show.

show pulls off. So I'm having a great time with the penguin. Wonderful. I concur. I thought that the first episode... I liked the first episode. I thought it was... I was intrigued. The second episode, I actually...

I think liked the least of the four and found still entertaining, but a little convoluted. But I thought three and four were incredible. Just genuinely amazing television episodes. And in terms, I mean, we'll see what the back half of the season holds. We have not watched beyond, we have not seen beyond four. Correct. But,

So the way that the first half of the season and episodes three and four function, you know, because we get a lot of the character pairings and trios and mixes, but three is an essence of Victor episode and four is definitely a Sophia episode. To that point you just made of like, we have three leads and giving us boosting and bolstering our investment in all three of those figures. Yeah.

To then set up what the second half of the show is presumably going to be about, this battle between Oz and Sophia for who will rise to fill this power vacuum left in the wake of Carmine's death. They have done, structurally, I think, a strong job of positioning this for a dynamite second half run. I...

I think the Colin Farrell performance as Oz is like incredible. I love it. It's at times incredibly surprisingly poignant and moving and sad. It is hilariously funny.

I was not prepared to care as deeply about Victor and Sofia. I know. As I do. I just love them and I'm so invested in them. Sofia, I kind of saw coming just because I do think Kristen Milioti is like never given a bad, like, Yeah, and even from the trailer you could feel, oh, they know they have something special here. But I think

I think in episode one, after episode one, I was worried about the Victor character because I'm like, I'm just not sure that this makes a ton of sense to me that like why this kid would be in Oz's orbit, all that sort of stuff like that. And then like episode three, just so much phenomenal work in that regard.

And we should say Vic, unlike obviously Sophia or Oz, Vic is an original character created for the show. So yeah, you're bringing something different to it as a fan of the universe. You don't think he's Victor Freeze or Victor Zaz or any of the other Victors he might be? You know what? Who can say for sure? But yeah, the performances are incredible. And to your point about

I'm really loving the dynamics between Oz and Sophia, between Oz and Victor, watching these relationships build and then fracture and the things that they share, like these three protagonists who are, and certainly in Oz and Sophia's case, not in Victor's yet,

in many shows they would be the villains, right? But there are heroes, there are protagonists, even though they are capable of doing terrible things. And that's the tragedy of it, watching how they were both pushed to that point. And they all see themselves as outsiders. And so that is simultaneously the thing that brings them together, but isolates them or makes them feel apart from the rest of the world. Or that they can't trust each other. Yes. And I think with Victor, it's so poignant because...

We're watching him become the things that like Oz and Sophia have already become in episode three, when he makes the choice not to get on the bus, when he kills someone, I have to assume, kills someone with the car. Again, that brings me back to the wire and watching like these various young, usually young men get like drawn into this world and making like choice after choice after choice.

down a path that endangers them. And yeah, so watching him, I find him so compelling and endearing. So yeah. He's my favorite character. I'm tipping some of my picks with that reveal. But I just thought episode three was unbelievable and Victor is my favorite.

Should we get to the category? Should we get to the superlatives? Any other opening thoughts you want to share? I guess we should say just for anyone who is like, where does this fit in the new DC continuity? This is, of course, part of the Elseworlds banner and specifically the Reevesverse, this Batman banner.

crime saga. So it's not only connected to the, the, the Pattinson Reeves, the Batman film, it's going to be connected to whatever we see in the second Batman film. This is its own little slice of the DC universe right now. Reeves has also said that they are thinking about other spinoff shows and stuff like that. I think probably depending on how the penguin does, I don't know if they're, if he's looking to move this world into the realm of television, since James, James Gunn is like so concretely taking over, uh,

the film world of, of the DC and, and also the TV world. But like, I think the James Gunn, Matt Reeves sort of somewhat battle for who's Batman is the real Batman sort of situation. It would make sense if Matt Reeves is like, fine, I'll just go own this corner over here. And I think to the point about spending more time in this Gotham, which is makes me so happy is I was talking to, um, our, our pal and colleague Van Lathan on, uh,

the phone the other night, he was watching the Batman sort of in the background as he likes to kind of constantly have something on in the background. And so he would occasionally be like, hey, that's a different guy playing Karma. I was like, yeah, that's John Turturro. They recast him as Mark Strong, all this sort of stuff like that. And

Van didn't really like the Batman when he first saw it, but he really likes the Penguin or he's liking the Penguin more and more. And so he's rewatching the Batman and it's just like, actually, I think I was wrong about this movie. I think this movie is wonderful. And if this show can like moves people's minds on the Gotham that Matt Reeves created, which I think I was arguing to Van, I think like,

you know, Burton and Schumacher or whatever, give us this like cartoony Gotham. And then Nolan gives us like basically Chicago. It's not really Gotham. It's just Chicago. And this Gotham as represent both here in the Matt Reeves is like,

is a fantastical other place, but also gritty and dirty and all of the things that Gotham should be. And I think this is my, this is definitely my favorite Gotham ever without exception. And I'm just excited to play in it. So, yeah. It's a great Gotham. Let's go. Let's do it. Remember when our Pats...

when Alfred woke up and he was just like, you lied to me. You can't. Waited a few minutes to say I love you. I fucking love that movie. I rewatched that movie the other day. Why would you? Great. Why would you take the main Midnight Boy talking point against the Batman and drag it onto this podcast? I love it. I absolutely love that movie. He also, in the same scene, tenderly holds Alfred's hand. Just cradles his hand.

Holds his hand and implies that like, Alfred's like, you needed a father. And he holds his hand to be like, you were my dad. It's all there. It's in the scene. Wonderful movie. A film that I cherish and adore. And even though it's three hours, saw multiple days in a row when it first came out. Yeah. Gladly. Gladly. Okay. Speaking of gladly, let's get to the Penguin mid-season superlatives. In my neighborhood, they throw a parade in his honor. Frigging parade.

It wasn't fancy, but it was a gesture. The show of love of what he meant. Can you imagine to be remembered like that? Revered. All right. We're about to revere some parts of the show in our selections. Let's throw a friggin' parade. We're going to start with our favorite episode. Joanna.

The moment of truth. Is it three or four? What are you going with? I'm going to go with four. I think three is phenomenal and I'm excited that it seems like three is your favorite. So it makes sense that four would be my favorite. This is, again, just like an incredible showcase for Christine Milioti, but also like taking us inside of Arkham, a version of Arkham that we've never seen, I think. And...

I found it so incredibly compelling to watch her journey, her descent, her rapid descent, and to do it over the span of one episode and give us like a credible rapid descent into, you know, murderous rage. And I just think,

Hersh taking us through the journey of mafia princess to the animalistic feral Sophia in Arkham. And then her incredible coup that she pulls at the end of the episode. Unbelievable. And you're watching it. What I do like about The Penguin is...

And I know they make us want to think this, but I really did. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention the first time I was watching the episode through, but I really was like, is that little girl going to be okay? And then I was like, is she going to be kidnapped? I didn't think she's going to kill her, but I was like, is she going to do something to her to punish Carla, et cetera? Tough episode for Carla. It's not a great one. And then I was like, oh no, she's saving her. Yes. She saved her and she saved me.

Good old Johnny Vitti. And yeah, I just, I loved it. What a showcase for Chrissy Migliani and what she can do. So, yeah. You beautiful bad babies listening, we'll find out what all of the categories are as we go. But rest assured, Johnny Vitti will be coming up again today.

Take comfort. That will not be final Johnny BD mention. Were you a House of Cards fan? I used to, yeah. The first few seasons I watched. Yeah. So he played, that actor played, Michael Kelly played Doug Stamper on House of Cards. And as soon as we saw just like, I think a shot of him in a surveillance, I hadn't like dug into the cast or whatever. So we saw a shot of him and I was like, Doug Stamper's here? They got Stamper? Yeah.

I know. Oh, yeah. Johnny Beattie. All right, let's go. It's great to see Michael Kelly in The Penguin. Truly. I have no counterpoints to your pick. Episode four was sensational. I will be hitting many of the elements of episode four that I adored in other categories today. But I will be going with episode three, Bliss, as my favorite episode. I did have a really hard time picking between three and four, but I think ultimately three Oz, Vic...

and Sophia were all so present in three that it tipped it slightly for me because we got a lot of all of the different characters and dynamics that I'm enjoying. I just thought this was an incredible Victor episode, obviously getting to glimpse Victor's backstory, his time with his family, what happened to him with the flood. This also just like, sometimes the links to other parts of an connected IP universe are not effective, but like linking Victor and where we find him to what we saw in the Batman episode

was very effectively conveyed. Obviously, like, meeting Graciela, seeing for Victor this pull, not only, like, somebody crucial to his past, but this pull to a different kind of life, this idea of escape, this idea of California, the choice that he makes in the end. I was...

I was like riveted watching him sit there in his car, looking at her. And I think, you know, in my mind as like a logical TV viewer, I know he's going to go back to Oz, but it was...

gut-wrenching. It's the why. You know what I mean? Yes. And I... So, I loved this most because it was an amazing Victor Oz relationship episode and their relationship is my favorite part of the show so far. I, again, I'm tipping all my picks here. I don't know what's wrong with me. But I don't mind tipping that we have another category coming.

on favorite scenes where I will be returning to the Oz and Victor dynamic. So I'm going to just like put a pin in that part of it in discussing the episode overall. And I will be coming back to a couple of those scenes shortly. But it was also just, it was also a big episode for

understanding the Oz and Sophia relationship. Like, I don't know that four lands quite as effectively for us, quite as hard for us, if we haven't seen them attempt to reforge that trust that we glimpse here in episode three in this little, like, dalliance of a partnership as they're making this bliss play. And I thought Sophia's speech at the club about

psychological need and what bliss can provide people escape but also what it can provide the pushers control was like yeah a docile populace yeah yeah and harrowing and then obviously a big episode for mushrooms like look

we would be remiss if we did not say that if we're going to get a mushroom-centric plot on an HBO prestige genre tale, you know, yearning tendrils, like it's a pillar of the House of R experience. That Last of Us coverage was on a different podcast, but, you know. This is not worth revisiting. This is more about like gushy spores, right? Yes. This is, exactly. This is about the spore ooze that then turns into the crystals. When Trey says,

they're the basidio sports, I believe. Yeah. And Oz just turns and says, the fuck did you say to me? I was just in tears. So funny. And on the Oz front, this was also, again, I think of this as the Victor episode, but this was a great episode for us seeing how Oz maneuvers and improvises. We've been talking so much about the great improvisers and our rings of power coverage. And I'm like, Sauron, look out. Yeah.

For me, it was not in episode three. It was during the heist that goes wrong. And when Oz walks out of the truck and is trying to figure out which guy to shoot. Unbelievable. That's my favorite. It's delicious. Yeah, it's really good. And so many characters call him out on it. And they see, they understand how he operates, and yet he keeps getting away with it. I have found it very compelling. And I also just thought that while this was a very grim and heavy episode, it was really funny. I love...

I like Sophia comment who just a little understated on Oz's apartment. Very amusing. And, you know, the Johnny Vini play when they corner him with Tina in the hotel room, you know, and Oz is like, took you long enough. And Sophia just says the phrase.

the freight will finish early. Like, it was just little moments of humor and levity inside of this very, very tension-soaked pursuit. So I loved it. I loved it, and it made me really excited to keep watching. I think also to your point about Sofia coming in and looking in the apartment and then to have Graciela come in and look at the apartment and, like, her assessment, to see it through, to see it through Sofia's eyes who thinks it's, like, so chintzy and gaudy and then to see it Graciela, she's like, wow, this is fucking fancy. You know, it's just like,

And the, yeah, the class stratification of this Gotham, like a very parasite-esque physical stratification of like where did the flood hit and what did it spare and all that sort of stuff is just a really fun part of the show. And by fun, I mean tragic and horrifying. Grim. Exceedingly grim. Unrelentingly grim. Yeah. Favorite scene?

Okay, I guess you have picked scenes from your favorite episode. I couldn't help it. I decided to pick scenes from a different episode. That was my strategy and intention when I picked the categories as the two opening categories and then realized I would just not be disciplined enough to not talk about the same episode twice in a row, but here we are. So hopefully I don't steal too much of your thunder as I present a scene from episode three. But I think, I mean, we heard the...

the lunch conversation to open this episode. And that is a contender for me, but I think it has to be the payoff of that, which is the bathroom confrontation. Spoiler. I've paired those two in a smuggle. That's my favorite. Of course you have. Like, of course you have. And I will just like, I'll let you, I'll let you take the mic on it for the most part. But I will just say that like the, the moment in the bathroom, I rewatched the bathroom scene.

several times. So good. And the moment when Oz takes out his gun and puts it up to Victor and says, is this all you feel? Right? Like, this is like... My favorite moment of the season so far. I agree. I agree. Like, I just think that that was an extraordinary... Devastating. ...moment. And I think part of it is informed by...

Like Colin Farrell in this role is so interesting because like I said this at the time of the Batman and I still agree. I kind of feel like if you're in a cast like a big gnarled scarred guy, you should just give an actor who looks like that that role. I really do feel that way. At the same time, Colin Farrell is one of my favorite actors of all time. And so and is so good in this role. And I am I'm carrying into this.

Because we weren't given this dimensionality to Oz because he was such a supporting character in The Batman. But I'm bringing into this, I think, some of my just favorite Colin Farrell performances. And something that he is so good at is... Especially given what an extraordinarily handsome guy he is, this isolation and loneliness and vulnerability is something that he has brought to some of my most favorite Colin Farrell performances. And so...

And Victor's vulnerability, Victor's loneliness. I'm sorry, Oz's vulnerability, Oz's loneliness, Oz meeting Victor in that way. You know, Victor knowing it, Victor being like, I think he kind of likes having me around. He's lonely. He's lonely. I just find it so...

compelling. The yearning tendrils of friendship and mentorship between Oz and Victor is extraordinary. The way that their relationship has allowed my heart to just expand like a balloon and then

Shatter sometimes scene to scene. Yeah, genuinely impressive, you know, four hours of TV is a lot but also four episodes. Isn't that much? Yeah, feel deeply invested in how they got here and what their future is. Should I pivot in real time and make my favorite scene Joel Maisel getting shot four times in the chest to open the show?

To be clear, it was the first thing I texted Mallory about because if you've never heard us cover the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel on the Prestige TV feed, Mallory fucking hates Joel Maisel. Despise. The actor playing Alberto Falcone is the actor who plays Joel Maisel. So when he got popped in the chest... Joel Maisel deserved it. Eat shit and die Joel Maisel is how Mallory felt. Exactly. I was not equipped at the time to say whether Alberto Falcone deserved it, but Joel Maisel? Abso-fucking-lutely. Yeah.

I will say, I was considering picking the Sophia family dinner toast from episode four, but I'm going to hit that elsewhere. So I found a way to make the categories work for me. Great. The twofer. The smuggle. Oz and Victor's fancy meal at the fancy restaurant as they're working to corner Tina so that they can set up Johnny.

And then the bathroom scene that you just beautifully talked about, because as you noted, I agree, like they're entwined, right? I mean, you can't have one work as well as it does without the other. I found the restaurant scene to be so genuinely moving. Yeah.

I almost couldn't believe because that's, that's earlier in the third episode. I just, I couldn't believe how like gripped I felt by it at that point. And, you know, it goes back, obviously it builds on stuff that we've been seeing between Oz and Victor from the very beginning of the show. Like we have that episode one pitch that Oz makes to Victor. Like, do you want more for yourself? That's the choice he gives him, right? That's the proposition. And,

When he's talking in episode one about how the Falcons live, because Victor got to see the mansion, right? And I loved the way that he said, can you imagine living like that in a mansion, maids and butlers and shit? And they don't even know what they got because they always had it. Never hungry, born full. I thought that was one of the lines of the season. Yeah, never hungry, born full. Never hungry, born full is so good. And it just tells us everything we need to know. Everything we need to know about how Oz thinks about progress, success,

desire, want, need, achievement, anything. And then what he would see in Victor that reminds him of himself, but also what he thinks he can provide for Victor that other people didn't provide for him. So like we have the strong foundation for that from the very beginning of the show, but still it just walloped me to see them at that table. The easy charm and humor of Victor, like recounting the dirty cop taking the wad of cash, like you just kind of feel the rhythm and shorthand of their friendship, even though we know that Victor is like

rehearsing, preparing how he's going to try to leave. Yeah. I thought that was incredible. And I loved the ordering of the meal stretch. First of all, until the moment I leave this mortal coil, I will be thinking about Colin Farrell as Oz Cobb ordering Coco Von, which I believe if memory served, he pronounced Coco Van of the Coco Van. Yeah.

It killed me. And then, of course, like when the waiter interrupts Vic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Trying to order steak frites. And he's stuttering. And Oz yells at the waiter. And then Vic after is like, you don't have to do that. And Oz said. You should do it. You should do it. You should do it. And I don't know something about that response. It like really took me by surprise, but in a great way. Yeah.

Fuck what they think. Let them wait. You know, take up space. Like I, again, that just tells us everything we need to know about the character. How does he think about life? What should people cast him out? They diminish him. Everyone who we've seen come to harm in the show has mocked Oz in some way has made him feel lesser than

And, you know, what does he say to his mother, Frances, when he's explaining what happened to Albert? Like, he laughed at me. And so for Oz to say, like, take up space. She's like, you're my big bull of a boy. Don't you ever forget it. I have some notes for Frances Cobb on her parenting style. One or two. But, like, you could respond to people making you feel that way by shrinking out of you entirely, and Oz has to talk himself into, no, make sure they see you. Take up space. And so, like, it tells us so much about him. I think we see Victor receiving that as well. And then, like, the...

I thought, well, sorry. Also as someone with like, because he's got his, his injury with his foot. Yes. And so it's like, I have my own sort of,

thing that people have to be patient with. I move at the pace that I move. Right. And I have to not feel insecure about that, not run to catch up with people. I just have to take my time and remember that I'm allowed to take my time. Right. And like the, you know, when Oz finds the kids trying to strip his car at the beginning and he has the gun to, I mean, before we get the, this is what it feels like being with me. Like he does have a gun to Victor's face. That's the beginning of their relationship. Right. And like what, what brings him back into himself? It's like, it's seeing Victor

as he's working through his stutter in real time for the first time. And that like the, this, the understanding that that forges between them right away. And then, you know, we, we had it as the opening clip of the episode, but I, I just thought that Victor and Oz like discussing Juan, discussing Victor's family, discussing the American dream was so beautiful and moving, but also this is why the show is good. It's we, it tells us how Oz justifies his behavior, right? Like the world ain't set up for the honest man to succeed. He will use that rationale to,

To do terrible things. And Sophia, that idea of like, it's not us, it's the world, that becomes a through line in the speeches both of them make. And I think- Which I love. In every moment where you're drawn, you're tempted to be drawn in to like really fully root for them-

They will then immediately do something where they're like, ha. You know, so, like, Victor shows up. Yeah. Kills him with his car. I don't like that for Victor. But, like, Oz is so just over... Like, he came back. He came back for Oz. Oh, my God. And then in that same breath, he ditches Sophia. Leave her. Leave her. And they're just like, no! No!

No. Um, so, you know, especially as we like, again, I know you would just invoke Sarah and I'll just invoke this idea of like fellowship, like where does fellow, where, where can you allow fellowship inside a world like Gotham? And it's like the, the one question I have actually is about the Falcons because often people who are coded the way the Falcons are Carmine and Sophia and Alberto, um,

is they are nouveau riche. You know what I mean? Like they speak with this sort of like long Island accent kind of like thing, you know, like New Jersey kind of, uh, not like people who have been moneyed for generations upon generations upon generations. So I do have a question about when they got their mansion and if they were indeed always born full, you know what I mean? Like that's a, that's just a question I have. Okay. I, to your point about like the class stratification, um,

And obviously some of this would be about money, wealth, what do you have? But some of it would be like...

how much power do you have? Like I loved a moment where, like the one where Sophia reminded Oz that he wasn't a made man, you know, because there are different ways to assert your superiority over someone, even if you've both managed to like achieve a lot of actual tangible wealth. But yeah, the bathroom scene, I mean, I'm in lockstep with you. I just thought that was extraordinary. Like one of the best scenes in recent memory, it hits so hard on the heels of that restaurant scene, like,

The way that Oz sought out Vic, he strikes the deal with the triad. He doesn't tell Sophia until later the person he wanted to share his success with was Victor, right? Yeah.

And I thought the fact that his reaction to hearing the text and seeing the phone and looking at the messages and realizing Vic was going to go was not what Victor was expecting. Right? Victor has been spending the episode in fear. I've seen things I shouldn't. He's not going to let me leave. And the fact that the thing Oz was

was so wounded by was just that Victor would want to leave. Like, he doesn't want to kill him. Yeah. He's hurt that Victor would want to go. He's hurt that Victor thinks he wouldn't have let him. Yes. Right? Yeah. That he's some monster keeping him imprisoned. And he's insulted, of course, that this, like,

pitch for a better life that he's given Victor is something that Victor thinks is beneath him. Like the way that he, when Victor said his dad would be ashamed of him. I know, but also like hurt that this is the only reason Victor has stayed thus far. Yes. Right. That like, I thought this was a real thing. Yeah. You, you, you thought I had a gun to your head this whole time and I thought you were choosing me. Yes. The gun to the head moment. Like, this is what it feels like being with me. Just like a shredded me. Absolutely shredded me. And even just to like,

Then the moment when Oz is like, you know, that's the life you want. Good, like, congratulations. You already have it. And the way that we know Victor is thinking about that and carrying that with him, the simultaneous, like, he does believe that his father would be ashamed of him. When he and Graciela were up on the roof before the flood, before Riddler's attack, like, they walk away from Squid. Yeah. Victor didn't grow up wanting to be involved with things like this. But he has to recognize, like, now...

there's something about this I like. I feel like I have control. I can attain more. And so to watch him go through this struggle and be presented with this, navigate this conflict in real time and for Oz to genuinely have believed that Victor was like, you've given me a pathway to everything I ever wanted and then have to realize that he felt like he was unable to do anything but be by his side was just gut-wrenching. I loved it. Loved. Next superlative? Yeah.

All right, this is a twofer. This is a best quote, favorite quote, but we're going both Oz and Sophia. We have sound clips prepared. We do. So Joanna, would you like to go first with Oz or with Sophia? I will just say that I think perhaps I'm worried that we had different interpretations of this category, which is fine.

which is like, I went with things that cracked me up and you might have gone with things that felt like emotional and resonant to you. And I, I did both. I have not both for each. I have one of my picks for one of the characters is a, a laugher. Okay. And one of them is a little bit more, Oh my goodness. I'm going to give you my, my,

Oz quote only because you have already in true We Are Soulmates style already referenced it. Steve Lee play my Oz clip. What's the plan with that, by the way? Are we going to? Yeah, I know what you're thinking, kid. You can't kill her. Oh, she wants an inside man. I'm going to give her one. Otherwise, I ain't got no shot to get my hands on Al Shipman, you know.

Oh my god. It's just incredible.

Incredible. Start picking is, I think, the great button on the cilantro. I wanted to put a little padding around that clip because the pivot away from like, I know what you're thinking, we can't kill her. But like, Jesus Christ, look at all this cilantro. Also, I have some comments for Victor and his...

his mode as like putting the food out he is just manhandling those tacos and i'm gonna i'm gonna need like a wrapping paper a foil of some kind between his hands and the tacos that the girls i guess are gonna be eating later agreed i did enjoy when oz later introduced victor to roxy and was like he's the one who fucked up i love cilantro i would smother everything in cilantro but you know who you know who who is uh the oz in this scenario what

Christopher Ryan. Well, Diana, like who I live with, like she, it tastes like soap to her. So the pico de gallo is sadly cilantro-less in our house because, you know, it's a genetic thing. Runner-up quotes, and I'm confident we don't have any of these, but runner-up quotes for Oz are anytime he does the very classic iconic I'm in a high school production of Guys and Dolls accent, and that would be when he says, poifict, suits you, ma. Yeah.

Different circumstances. Or else I'll moid at you and everyone you care about. Or voice time I ever heard live music. So all of those. I thought you might pick the first time I ever heard live music, both because of the accent, but also the whoa. I thought that was really good. I was.

I was texting a friend of mine who had watched all of The Penguin. He had been up through episode four, so he was like, let me know your thoughts as you're watching it. And I was like, oh, here comes another personal anecdote from Oz because Oz tells a lot of personal anecdotes. And he's like, I think you mean poisonal anecdotes. I was like, I do. I do mean poisonal anecdotes. Oh, man. You know, on the personal anecdote front, one thing I will say that I'm really enjoying about the show is tracking when he's telling the truth or not.

Because like, about his mom? Yeah. When he was like opening up to Sophia and talking about his brothers and their services, they're like, oh, are we glimpsing this real genuine moment of shared pain? And then he's like, yeah, my mom died. And it's like,

No. Well, I just think that's such a good seed to plant because like, so he has hidden his mom and tells everyone she's dead. Yes. I don't think she's making it out of the season. Personally, I would say Sophia will take her revenge on that. Like, I think Victor's going to be, I like to think Victor's going to be okay, but I do not think that...

Ma is making a throw. Maybe Sophia will seek her out directly to hurt Oz, but if she sends a minion, do you think that Francis Cobb will say, you pussy boy, when her assailant comes to kill her? I can only hope. You a big pussy boy? Francis, who made an impression? Here's my Sophia clip again. I was going for things that genuinely made me laugh out loud.

Have you seen Bride No. 3? Oh, my God. It's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Lucas says he met her in Portugal. Okay. Portugal.com. Yeah.

Incredible. I wrote Portugal.com in all caps in my notes. I thought it was so funny. Incredible. I do have a backup for Sophia, but just in case it's yours, I will hold it until I hear what yours are. But yeah, Portugal.com, the way that Christine Milioti just kind of threw that line away, just really, really good stuff. Wonderful. Yeah. Genuinely, genuinely iconic. Portugal.com. All right, I'll start with my Oz pick to stay on the humor beat for a moment here. Ako, what are you, reading books or something? Mm-hmm.

No, what we got going is more of a corporate restructure. That might actually, I know I said something else with my favorite moment in the season, but Akua, what are you reading books or something? Might be my favorite moment of the season. Come on, House of R, Oz. Astonishing stuff. This was the pitch, the triad pitch to Link. Yeah.

I don't know what I love more. The what are you reading books or something absolutely killed me. I just thought this was hysterical. But then the immediate transition into corporate research is just incredible. We're changing the work chart. We're changing – Just a little work chart update. A little work chart update would be very smooth. I do think like I love that you picked funny things because –

I love that moment and that line in that clip, so that was why mostly I wanted to pick it. But I did want to celebrate the humor of the show. My runner-up, I think, for Oz is 60 years ago, two Sicilian brothers jizzed all over the toe of that boot. The toe of that boot. Now I got three dozen Falcons breathing down

It's so good. The toe of that boot is so good. Oh my God. That really got me. Incredible. Because I know your Sophia clope is an emotional one or whatever. I will say my run up for Sophia was Tina, don't forget your panties.

Oh, so incredible. Okay. Iconic stuff. What's your Sophia clip? I could have picked that Johnny Deity scene for favorite scene. That was a fucking great one. Okay. So Sophia, this, this is where I'm going to begin to hit some of what I loved about episode four. Not the, not the last spot, but Steve, can we hear my Sophia pick? For 10 years, men have lied to me. And then I come home and it's all the same. They think I'm broken. I'm not broken.

I'm not the one who's sick, and neither are you. The world is. So good. I'll follow her anywhere. Follow her right into a family massacre. Hopefully you followed her into the greenhouse where you were safe. She double-winged her eyeliner. I mean, what are you going to do? What can you say? Two wings? Two wings? Remarkable evolution of the makeup and hair and outfits. To Moira? To Moira someone? My daughter.

So that's Sophia speaking to Dr. Julian Rush, who we have some notes for. He's going to come up. After the Moroni attack and the reveal of Oz's treachery, what happens at the end of episode three, we glimpse more of what she hears at the beginning of episode four. The clock is ticking down on the Luca, Johnny, you get to Sicily on this plane with this ticket. Did you print that out yourself? Did you print that out yourself was also like...

In the running. Sensational stuff. So I love this. I mean, first of all, again, as you've noted, the performance is sensational. It is a sensational performance. I love that this built off what we've heard from Sophia all season long. Like if we go back to episode two, when she had Oz come meet her at the family mausoleum. You don't have one of those. Not yet. You don't got a mausoleum? Okay. Okay.

Oh, man. I was not expecting this much accent work from you, though I should have been. And I am loving it. I am loving it. I was in Guys and Dolls in high school. So I've done fantastic. Love this. Love this for you. Love this for us.

When she was talking about Al, Birdo, as she calls him. That's the other guy. She's like Birdo. Birdo. She's like Al. She's great stuff. Birdo was taken from me and I refused to let these old fucking men push me aside. Like, I'm nothing. So I'm going to take from them now and I'm going to force them to their knees. It should be fun. So we've been building toward this...

this thing that she says to Julian, obviously this sets up the Falcone family massacre to come at the end of the episode. But what I really loved about it is that even though it stemmed from,

between Sophia and Oz, we feel in it, like this is what we've been talking about all episode now, the notes of what could unite them. Like their worldview is so similar and the fact that they're, like you said, like not able to unite and form that fellowship, but are instead finding themselves increasingly at odds is just like, you know, we're watching a tragedy. So incredibly, incredibly compelling stuff. I loved that line. Most compelling character? Most compelling character. This was tough. A lot of choices. I simply cannot. I know.

I'm sorry. I simply cannot. It's just a Sophia, Victor, Oz three for it. I couldn't choose. So I'm sorry.

I picked Sophia. Can you believe I made a choice? Even though Victor is my favorite, I think what I'm thinking of compelling, I can't look away when Sophia is on the screen. Yeah. Though I agree with you. It is a, it's a three for three. I can't really look away when Oz is on the screen either. I probably picked, so forced myself to just pick Sophia because I had not picked episode four. Yeah. Episode four at the top. What else would you like to say about, about any of our guests here? I just think that's an, that's an incredible accomplishment to, you know, we come in,

trailing Colin Farrell, who was such a standout in the Batman into the show. So like, you think that, you know, surely Oz is just going to like suck up all the oxygen in the room to give us Sophia, who, you know, is a comic book character. Um, so to play with our expectations from the comic books to, uh, I just think, I just think the show is not nearly as good without Christy Milioti here. Um,

Just the same way I feel like Akitha is not as good without Aubrey Plaza there. That sort of mania that she brings is so... And well-earned mania. She has earned her distrust and hatred of the world and all this sort of stuff like that. And also the way that her story... I didn't say this when I talked about Chantani, the episode four, but the way in which that episode successfully does what...

what a good Gotham story should do, which is show the corrupt, the rot at the center of all the institutions, the judicial system, the Gotham PD, the prison system, like all of that sort of stuff. And so- Our guy Kenzie back in the mix. Yeah. Not our guy. Your guy. Your guy. Your fave. Your fave Kenzie. Okay, cool. I was like, Kenzie, yeah. Kenzie's here.

So yeah, I mean like Sophia, but I think Victor is the biggest accomplishment actually, because this is not a big larger than life character. This is like a, a small, uh, just really engaging performance from an actor. I haven't seen in anything before that I know of. Um, the, uh,

And also the way that the stutter is played, which could have been, which is sometimes played cartoonishly and here is played like extremely naturalistically. Yeah. It's a fantastic performance. It's just incredible. Big fan. I love it. All right. I'm going with Sophia, my girl, my queen. Breakout surprise of the season.

taking over television screens globally. Incredible performance as we've chronicled now at length. I think like one of the things I'm loving most about the performance is simultaneously the balance of and the trade-offs between dialing up what

Sophia in a given context is things people expect to see from her, like shoveling food in her mouth at the memorial when everyone's whispering about her. But then the moments where she just needs to receive from view entirely, like hiding from the protesters at the funeral when Oz finds her, like all of that has felt right in those moments. When is she shrinking? When is she dialing it up? I loved the simultaneous, like,

Withering indictment of society when she said trauma sells, but also the way that she was leaning into that actively to get what she wants. If everyone else is going to pry and pick and pry at her trauma, why shouldn't she use it to get what she wants? That's a fascinating psychological aspect of her character. Wear it like armor. Yes, yes. Yeah.

Also, like, just the Bruce Wayne comp. Like, the conversation about how you, with Julian, like, how do you respond to the death of a parent? I thought that Sophia's response of just saying, like, sometimes you're just sad was absolutely soul-shredding. Her love for Alberto, like, the genuine bond between those siblings in this completely fucked-up family. Even though it's fucking Joel Maisel? Like...

I think that her affection for Joel Maisel is, of course, a character flaw, but then it makes the character interesting. You know, the simultaneous, again, like the mistrust of Oz, but the draw to Oz, the outsider standing, their history when he was her driver. For Sophia, this like woman in a man's world aspect when she said to Oz, you have a dick, so at least you're eligible for promotion. Yeah.

Incredible. But, like, on the one hand, like, again, yeah, the frailty of those fellowships, right? Like, we're both outsiders, like, all this other stuff like that. And then she's like, what are you doing inside? Yes. And so the hypocrisy... That was a shocking moment. Yeah. What are you doing inside? Yeah. Is that a new jacket? Well, is that a new jacket? It was, like, alarm bells, my dear. But, like, what are you doing inside? Like, you're my driver. You don't belong inside. Right. You're not allowed in here. Yeah. This isn't where you're supposed to be. And so, like...

The rise of Sophia, you know, we obviously get to see that Carmine, and we'll talk about that relationship more as we go, but, you know, he's like, you're my chosen successor. Before he...

Turns on her, sends her to Arkham and frames her for multiple murders. Yeah, a real chivalry experience for her there. Yes. Yes. You know, the way that it's not like Sophia is not trying to piece together for long what happened to her and who did this to her. She knows her father.

She knows her father killed these people. She knows her father killed her mother. She knows that her family members who wrote these letters to the judge about her mental illness without hesitation wrote

threw her life away. And then that kind of godfather-esque, fuck Carla, fuck Carla, I'll say it. Yeah. The godfather-esque closing of the door by the people. For Sophia, it's not just, oh, you have the power and you don't want me to have it. It's like, I know that everyone in that room, right? Luca, Johnny, Milos is there. I enjoyed when she called out Milos' body counselor. They're the ones who betrayed her.

Yeah. They're the ones who didn't think her life was worth more than a hurried order from Carmine. So it's just been sensational. I can't wait to see what the second half of the season has in store for Sophia. I think also to your point about that idea of like trust and like the way, like learning in episode four, all the ways in which Sophia was, I mean, because I did think there was more to her story than she's just a serial killer and she's been let out. But to, and we know that,

that her father's a piece of shit. Cause we've seen the Batman. Um, so, you know, there's some, there's some things in the mix there, but I think something like, um, Castillo, who is her like right-hand man who, you know, when Oz plants the, the knife on him. Yes.

And he's like insisting to Sophia, I've been loyal to you. I've been loyal to you. Like, how can she trust anyone? You know? So how easily she's not the one, you know, Luke is the one who shoots him, but like how easily does she go? Well, of course he would betray me. Everyone betrays me. That's a defining through line of her life. The people close to her betraying her. Yeah. That's a great call out. Oh, Castillo. Tough end for him.

Luca, by the way, Luca, rest in fucking pieces, Luca, but Luca is, there's just a bunch of actors in here that I like really associate with another TV character they've played. So he played Max Medina on Gilmore Girls. I was like, Max, what are you doing here? God.

Luca Falcone. Perhaps this is a good transition. I mean, you're not going to pick Luca because Luca's dead. Though we could get... Who knows? Anyone could appear in flashbacks. Our next category is the character you most hope to spend more time with in the second half of the season. Well, I really hope your answer is Johnny Vitti because you've been teasing your Johnny Vitti take for a while. It is. That's not my answer, but it's a great one. I think...

I have some smuggles here. Okay. I'm excited. Other than our core three, which I want to spend all the time with. Of course. Yeah. I think Dr. Julian Rush is played by Theo Rossi. Once again, juice from Sons of Anarchy. What are you doing here? Love Theo Rossi. Love that he's here. Always weird to see him with hair. But like, Dr. Julian Rush is such a creep. Yeah.

But I am compelled by him and I want to know, I want to know if it's the story is more than just like he wants to fuck her. Like, is there something else at play here? What, what is his connection to the sourcing of the mushrooms? Like all sorts of, how did he help Alberto get her out? Like all, all of these questions. What is the extent of his like hypnotism methods? And are we getting like a scarecrow comp without him being Jonathan Crane? Like, can we have a character called Julian Rush that is like scarecrow esque?

but not actually the scarecrow. And I love the scarecrow. Same. Eve Carlo. The last name Carlo is the same name as Clayface. So I don't know if that is something that we should be tracking, if she's going to be a Clayface of some sort. But...

The thing I'm most compelled by is not just that she is a potential vulnerability for Oz. Yeah. But Sophia clocked her. Like, really gave her a real I'm clocking you look in a way that I'm like, let's come back to that, Eve. What's going on with you? You know, sort of thing. Yeah. The way that, too, like, Sophia, when...

heading into the arrest when Oz was driving her after Carmine ordered her to leave. Yeah. She's basically like, congratulations, you have my father's, like, attention now. He sees you. He sees you and everyone in your life. Yeah. She was talking about her father, but we can presume this is a...

And I was struck too on the, on the Oz front of it with Eve when she came into his bedroom and was like, so you killed, you killed Alberta Falcon, right? Like that's why you asked for an alibi. I was really struck by the fact that he didn't lie or try to tell her that's not what happened. He like her, his, the trust that he is placing in her is so pretty dangerous. Okay. Yes. Last but not least.

It's Clancy motherfucking Brown as Sal Maroney. Dude, okay. Thank you. Thank you. Because how have we gone an hour into the podcast without talking about one of our shared favorites, Clancy Brown? Clancy Brown's here. The fuck is wrong with us? Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Yeah. So let's go back to Blackgate as much as possible to see Sal. You know, and I like the way that they're working all of this, that they have Sal Maroney on the inside and then we have his wife on the outside. And I think that, like...

I can never pronounce her name perfectly. I'm so sorry, but Shere Agdashlu, I think, who, you know, people know from The Expanse or a number of other things is incredible as Nadia. But I want like, I want all the Moronis, maybe not their fail son. They seem to have a fail son. I don't need him there, but I need the Moroni power couple, like, you know, more of them. So yeah.

Great call. I love all of those picks. Sorry. Now I feel we don't have enough time left for everyone we need to really see. We only have four episodes left. I want time with all of those characters, and I also want time with Johnny Vitti. Look, we already talked about Michael Kelly. When I saw that Michael Kelly was in the show, I'm like, oh, great. I love when Michael Kelly is in a show. And the delight I felt

When I realized Sophia had spared him because, you know, before the massacre, she goes into the room, she opens the window, she's smoking a cigarette. So we're kind of like, okay, like who's in the, okay. But then she puts the gas mask on. You sort of forget because you're so swept up that there's an open window. And then you see, she walks into the room, the picture that she had been looking at with, of her and Alice kids is there. Oh, this is the room with the open window. Who's in the bed? Of course it's that fucker, Johnny median. Like I loved even, you know, in the moment where they confronted him,

And with Tina, when he was like, you want me to lie to the... And I was just like, it doesn't have to be a lie. You know, they have given him these moments where like, you can opt in. Yeah. Right? And so I'm so interested to see how Sophia positions this to him because at the end of the day, he's a family member who wrote a letter betraying her, right? Who...

when, and Luca made the, you got to get on the plane to Sicily, like, order as well. But when Johnny did it, he's like, you go or I'll tell people that's where you went. He's not being coy about the fact that he will just kill her. A real Doug Stamper move, to be honest with you. Yes. And so, I'm just fascinated to see what the Sophia Johnny dynamic is moving forward. And,

And you know he was spared for a reason. Well, my assumption is that. I guess we could always be surprised and he could just be killed in the next episode. But my assumption is that he's spared because he has a meaningful role to play in the events of the final four episodes. So I just can't wait. And I hope at some point in those four episodes.

I know there's going to be a gang war going on, a mob war going on, and an underworld crime boss war going on. But I do hope at some point in those four episodes we get to see Johnny VD try a new position because when they find him in the hotel room and the photos, like, Tina's always on top. Yeah, Tina on top. Always. Johnny, like, mix it up a little. Tina, don't forget your panties, but also don't forget that you have some options.

Doesn't always have to be you doing all the work, Tina. Exactly. Like, Johnny, let's see, like, some effort at some point. Johnny Vitti. Do you think he ever, like, puts his hand behind his head as he's, like, laying back next to the headboard just being like – Yeah. He's probably, like, scrolling on his phone at some point. Doing a thing, Tina. I don't know. After what Oz did with the phone. Maybe never. Never again. Maybe never again. Johnny Vitti, what a guy. Okay. Number six. Most illuminating flashback.

I'm about to say something that's going to make people laugh out loud because I've seen the runtimes of some of our other podcasts. We are running a little long. We have like made about ourselves. But we have our zippy categories coming here. So I will keep it a little zippy. And I will just say, you've already mentioned like episode three is so phenomenal. I think the opening flashback with Victor and his family. Yeah.

Little details like, you know, his sister's I voted sticker. I don't know. There was just like these little tiny details that just give us a portrait of a family with like a moral code and like, and just, just watching the wave come at their apartment. Yeah. It's horrifying. And to your point, just like to give it that, like,

Do you remember when Batman v Superman came out and they fight and they destroy all the buildings and everyone's like, what about all the people? Or the aftermath of Sokovia, this idea that what is the cost of these big set pieces that we put inside of these big superhero movies? And here's a really ground level...

Victor's family among other things is the cost or also the moment when Victor his attention is snagged by the like missing since the flood posters that he sees on like a lamppost or whatever I just I thought that flashback was really good and we only get a few minutes with his parents but it's just so evocative of like what he lost in the flood so yeah great pick I loved that

I'm going with the Arkham arrival specifically. I mean, everything in Arkham, as you said, was harrowing, but specifically the arrival sequence. Shawshank, baby. Holy shit. Like we're building off the shock of the arrest. Yeah. That very rapid sequence with the lawyer. It's like, you're going to have to do this for six months. Sophia realizing piecing together in real time that her father, like we said, not only did these things, but then framed her for them right into Arkham.

There's no time for Sophia or us as viewers to get our bearings, to try to understand why this happened, to try to figure out a way to maybe evade it. Stripped, scrubbed, penetrated, chained.

Unrelenting. Horror after horror after horror. And then that Ventress Julian intro is chilling and the little no visit, like you're not going to see another person for six months. And then the magpie pushing out the...

the bolt to like a little nail hole that they can communicate between. And we have Magpie's voice, this very specific, direct connection. And then just the screams, the screams that vibrate through Arkham.

And Sophia hearing that for the first time and realizing there's no escape. I mean, this is before we get to the six-month mark and Al is like, you're not going to have a trial. It's just instantaneously. Her life changes in a moment and we feel that so keenly going from the stated heir apparent

into, as she'll say to Oz, like in the first episode, she says it was humiliating being turned into a thing in the span of mere moments. That's what we watch happen to her. The stripped and scrubbed, like, again, made me think very much of like Shawshank and the like the delousing powder that they throw in them and all that sort of stuff like that. It's like you're turned into cattle. Like, you know, yeah, yeah. Horrifying.

Maybe a mood shift here, but I guess it depends on what we each pick. Most captivating location. Did you go with Arkham and something very dark? Did you go with something cheerful? I went with actually, and this is a cheat because it's the most direct connect to the Batman, but I think the iceberg is just so beautiful. And then like, what's interesting about the way that this show is shot is, um,

It starts by trying to really closely match the Batman's aesthetic. You get a lot of like golden hour, sepia, all standing in front of that round, that iconic sort of round window in the iceberg. Um,

really matching. And then like, and then night falls and then the dawn of the new day, the style, the visual palette kind of changes. And it's like, this is our show and this is our palette going forward on this show. But I thought that was so interesting that a decision either that Craig's level made or whoever to be like, okay, we'll open it, making it look like Matt Reeves's film. And then,

Night falls. Next day, we are now in the world of the penguin, not the Batman. We really want you to be able to see that Oz's car is not purple. It's plum. It's plum. You need daylight for that. It's plum. You need daylight. He also has a blue Volvo, and that's very important. But yeah, the iceberg is just, I think, incredible. A great pick. My favorite location inside of that location, my favorite specific part of the iceberg lounge, is the staircase that Oz just hurled Joel Masel's body down.

It's like the semi. Such a great silent moment. You just like watch him like sort of weigh it. And then he's just sort of like, fuck it. Fuck it. Yeah. Amazing. I am, once again, we will be chatting about Dr. Julian Rush because I am picking, and this was actually weirdly an easy pick for me, his astonishing home office. Okay. Tell me more. Now, I don't,

that Dr. Julian Rush is a good person or a good hang or someone that I in my personal life would want to spend time with, to be clear. However, I would be interested in spending time with his architect and his interior designer because... How much money do you make as a...

an assistant therapist at Arkham. This is a beautiful establishment. Like, yeah, the bones, first of all, gorgeous. The fireplace, the mantle, wonderful. The stained glass at the top of the windows, stunning, stunning. But Joanna, those bookshelves behind Sophia on that back wall. We love a built-in, you know? We're a big fan of the built-in. I have notes for Julian, but I have no notes on the bookshelves.

Floor to ceiling. Wall to wall. This is a real Rob Mahoney room detective moment for you, and I love it. I'm a big fan.

Thank you. So you were just talking about some of the visual distinctions between the Batman and the penguin, whether it be visual character theme or otherwise, our next category is what is the most intriguing tie to the Batman for you? Yeah, I have actually have a minor thing that I'm, I'm gonna do in the Easter egg category. So this is sort of like my more major thematic thing, which is that Sophia, you already mentioned this connection between Sophia and like Bruce Wayne and

But Sophia and Selena Kyle, like the daughters of Carmon Falcone. It's mine too! Oh, nice! Love it! It feels like it has to be. Yeah. It's just such a cool connection. You know, these daughters of Carmon Falcone, mothers died who, you know, were just like completely betrayed and used and violently, either physically or otherwise, just killed.

by their father, this horrible figure of Carmel Valcón. I will say,

With love and respect to Mark Strong, I do think it is a downgrade from John Turturro to Mark Strong. And I almost sent you a photo. I do have a wig watch complaint about the old young Howard Stark vibe that he's working to try to make him look like John Turturro. But anyway, yeah, the Selina Kyle, Sophia comp. Yeah.

Yeah, that's fine too. In general, I'm going with just like the Carmine connections overall because again, like the way that everybody, not just our primaries in Sophia and Odds, but you know, Luca, Johnny, the Maronis, like everybody is trying to figure out how to fill the space that Carmine left behind. But the Selena-Sophia thing, like watching these reveals build in episode four,

You know, we are bringing with us from the Batman the memory of watching Carmine Falcone attempt to strangle his own daughter to death. Like, wrap his hands around Selina's neck and say, just like your mother to her as he's doing it, you know, revealing what he did to Maria Kyle. And so we bring the horror of that knowledge in.

into this and it is like weighing on our hearts as we watch the realizations build for Sophia. Like we know, I mean, I agree with you. I didn't know from the necessarily the jump, what the, Oh, she's not really the hangman reveal was going to be, but when that's actually what made it so satisfying when you start to realize what the connection is going to be. Um, very good. Very good.

Okay, you said you had a smaller connection coming in your favorite Easter egg, and that's our next category. So hit us. What do you got? Oswald Cobb, not Cobblepot. Don't call him Cobblepot. It's Os. Os Cobb. Os Cobb. Spanish speaker.

Yeah. One of the biggest laughs, and there are a few far between in the Batman is when, uh, you know, uh, they have, uh, and they're like, are you the El Rado? A lot. Oh, are you a ball? But he's like, this is the worst Spanish I've ever heard in my life. What are you talking about?

It's La Rata. So yeah, the fact that Oz, we get him speaking Spanish with a concerned neighbor, question mark, right? Who has wrangled his mother. I just thought it was a great moment. So yeah. That's a tremendous pick. Great one. One of the things I love about the Batman is then when...

Gordon and bats are, are leaving it and piecing it together. And then you pan out. It's just still there. They like drive up. He's like, you just gotta leave me here. What are you doing? This is the voice. All right. Good. What a film. What a film. Uh, my, my favorite there were, cause there are, of course, a lot of figures of the show, comics characters, or just a quick mention of somebody who's a comics character. Um,

I think of all of the, oh, is this person in the show going to be this person? Or is the mention of this person who's definitely this person from the comics going to come into play in a more meaningful way? Or is this just here to ping something for us to trigger a thematic connection? A lot of contenders, I really...

really loved. We actually heard the clip of Oz, you know, opening the series by talking to Al about this memory of this gangster from his childhood, Rex Calabrese, who is a comics character, the lion. And I like the, first of all, you know, the lion, the penguin, nice. But,

I like the idea of Oz being a figure who touts the legacy and the nobility and the positive impact on the people around him and his neighborhood and his community. And it's like the lion is a murderer and a horror who unleashes his power.

Nobody knew everyone's name. Misery on everyone, right? And also then there's a... With the lion in the comics, there's this connection to Selina as well through the parentage front. So yeah, that's... I think of all the little mentions, that's my favorite. It's a really good one. I think that like... Yeah. Also, I will say...

It's more of a vibe connection, and I brought this comic up when we talked about the Batman, but the Long Halloween, the Jeff Loeb, Tim Sale Batman comic, which is my favorite Batman comic. Just zero killer vibes in Gotham. A big fan. And a lot of Falcone, Moroni stuff in that storyline as well. So, obviously. Obviously. Joe, we're going to end, and you're welcome to include Wigwatch TM with Joanna Robinson TM inside of this if you'd like.

With our Fit Lord category. I'm not... It's just the moment when Young... When she's discovered her mom's body and Young Sophia, like, pulls his glasses off and then he goes... So that he can lift them. Scratched hands. He goes to shove them back on and he's, like, the line on his wig at the temple just, like, wrinkled as he did it and I was like, no! Anyway, um...

I'm not here to discuss that. I am here to talk about Sophia Falcone, though, because I think it has to be the chartreuse halter dress that she wears that is giving Keira Knightley an atonement. And just like the dress is incredible. The plunging V, we talked about a plunging V on Agatha recently. What a plunging V run this has been for us. The double wing, the like styling out her sort of like shag, shag mullet hair. Looking astonishing as she's about to murder everyone. And then in addition to that,

not just like looking incredible at dinner, but like watching her waltz around the manor in a gas mask with this gown upsetting. But that's the most Batman thing I think we've seen so far here. It's like, you know, it's giving Harley Quinn, it's getting, you know, that idea of like, sort of like whimsical mass murder, the finery with the gas mask. Like it's just, it's very, it's,

pure, raw, uncut Gotham. I loved it. Yeah. Great way to put it. Yeah, this is my pick as well. This is iconic. This, to me, was instantly iconic. With love and respect to Oz's white suit that he wears, his, like, Scarface suit that he wears, like, there's some... A lot of memorable looks from Oz as well. Yeah, but come on. The murder dress and the murder do. Ugh. Wonderful stuff. I also loved...

you know, Sophia's scars are just proudly on display. Yeah, because where she is wearing like a scarf and turtlenecks and stuff like that before and then she's just like... No, it's like, here I am. And also just the vibe of it, like party dress, right? This is a celebration for her. A celebration and the dawn of a new age. And you have...

This declaration of intent, obviously, with this, like a funeral at the same time, like literally for all the dead people. But just the way she said in her toast, which I thought was incredible. Again, you have the humor of the arrival. It's like, Johnny, can you pass the meatballs? Everyone's like, what are you doing here? She's like, can you pass the meatballs? And then pushing the chewed meatball out of her mouth to make Gia laugh. And then Johnny's trying to be like, that's enough. And she's like, really? And he's like, no. Yeah.

Johnny, Johnny. I just like the way that she said, I don't fit into this family anymore. I don't know. It was so, it was so good. And in general, watching the evolution inside of that episode, because we're covering so much of her life, you know, more than obviously when we go back and see her as a young child, a nine-year-old finding her mom really more time than that. But in general, we're like on, you know, bookending this decade of this Arkham experience and the evolution of her hair and the evolution of the outfits, the evolution of the makeup.

inside of an episode where they're quickly achieving a lot, showing us so much of what happened to Sophia to shape her life. Like, that's an effective aid in conveying where she is and what she's pursuing and how she's feeling. She wore these, like, cute little party dresses, like, you know, when she had the longer wig and was doing the younger version of herself. And then it's just sort of like,

fucking killer. I also love the color. The chartreuse color is so interesting because it's not obvious, you know, like again, I, it reminds me a lot of the atonement, the famous emerald green atonement dress just because of the way of the, the cut of the skirt and the satin and all of that sort of stuff. But like you would think when you think of a murder dress, you think of like, you would think of like crimson red or black or something like that. Chartreuse.

is such an interesting pick. She looks phenomenal, but it is very, again, very comic book-y, very Gotham-y. You know what I mean? It's just as is the plum car. And we're not... A little pop of color in our massacres. We're not going for a Burton, Schumacher, sort of that level of comic book-y, but we want our plum cars and our chartreuse murder dresses, and that's what we're here for. So, love it. Perfect end note.

We did it. We did it. Any final thoughts on the first episode of Penguin? I'm excited. So we're not going to be covering this week to week, but we are going to do a couple more check-ins before all is said and done. We'll probably have two more pods on the final four, we think. The plan could change. We could adjust, but that's the intention. Yeah. So hobbitsanddragons.gmail.com if you have Penguin thoughts, connections we missed that you think are important to highlight. All that sort of stuff. All that good stuff.

Wonderful. All right. Poisonally. Poisonally. I had a great time. Same. Poisonally, I had a great time and now forced to observe that it's time to shut the fuck up because we want to watch the sunrise. So thank you to our family. Well, that's sinister. Chantani. Chantani to our family. Steve Allman. May you live a hundred years, Steve Allman.

for producing this episode. Arjun Ramgopal for his additional production work on this episode. Jomi Adeneron for his work on the social for this episode. On the video editing front, thank you to Stefano Sanchez for editing this video, T. Cruz for additional video support, and John Richter for additional video support. Quickly, we would like to say on the John Richter front, people of the world, bad babies, listen up. Please.

John's Fiction Podcast, Transmissions from Colony One, is a finalist for the Signal Award for Most Innovative Audio Experience. You can vote for John. Please do. And you should vote for John. Voting closes tomorrow, October 17th. The second you hear this, go vote. Show John your love. Thank you. Say the name of the podcast again. Transmissions from Colony One, Signal Award, Finalist for Most Innovative Audio Experience.

audio feature. We love you, John. We love you, John. And we love you, Bad Babies. We will see you on Friday for our Agatha episode six deep dive. Until then, remember, technically it's plum.