‘The Penguin’ Episodes 5-7 Superlatives | House of R
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Your mother is a very interesting woman, Oz. I know what my mother is. She helped me realize a few things. I keep trying on all these different faces, but none of them feel quite right. Hey! What the fuck is going on? You know what I want. And it's the same for you and me. Of course you do. Because this game was made for men like you. Like my father. Same winners.

Same losers. That's why everyone expected me to die in Arkham. No one even considered that I might learn something there. How to play new games. I left you a present. Did you find it yet? Greetings and welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to Crown Point, but also back into the House of R.

Joining me today, observing that this Antonucci's does not look like it traveled well, it's Joanna Robinson. Molly Rubin, what a joy to be here with you on this not at all nausea-inducing day that is Election Day 2024. So excited to be here with you. So excited to talk about the Penguin. You're the best. Jo. Mal. We are here to chat about.

The Penguin, specifically, episodes five, six, and seven. We're doing a little catch-up pod today. We'll be issuing our superlatives for the latest batch of episodes. But before we ask Vic if he's a sneakerhead now, some quick programming reminders. Over on the ringerverse.

A mammoth button mash is coming on Friday on a number of different games, including your new publicly declared passion, Mario and Luigi Brothership. Are you excited? Yes. You're still as excited for this as you've been. The Mario Mario Brothers? Yes. I love them. Saturday. Mario. Junior Mints, get ready. Mint edition on Arcane Season 2 Part 1. Not to overstate it, but this is a pod three years in the making. Correct. Correct.

Tune in. No fewer than one gajillion emails. When are you guys covering Arcane? Here we go. I cannot wait for this. I cannot wait to watch Arcane and I cannot wait to listen to the pod. Here on the House of R, we will be back with you at the end of the week for a podcast. Yes.

Let's just take a peek behind the curtain. We are hesitant to say exactly what it is just in case it falls through. No matter what, though, we will have something fun for you. Yes, we will have an episode. Yes. And then we will be back at the top of next week to chat about the Penguin finale. Yes.

Wonderful stuff. Exciting. You can watch full episodes of this podcast, House of R. And you can watch full episodes, video podcasts of Midnight Boys, Pew Pew, on Spotify and on the Ringerverse YouTube channel. So make sure you subscribe to the YouTube channel if you haven't yet.

How can everybody follow along in addition to that? Wow. Thrilled and honored and just genuinely touched that you asked me this and also that you covered the video part because you know I always mess it up. So thank you, Mallory Rubin. Listen, why don't you just follow the pod? That might be a good thing. Like just subscribe to the pod.

maybe on your podcatcher of choice, hopefully Spotify, but whatever you prefer. Subscribe to House of R, subscribe to The Ringerverse. You can follow us on social. We are on X, we are on Instagram, we are on TikTok. There's a Facebook group. Did you just say X? Have they gotten you? No, I just, I go back and forth. It's a stressful day. Don't, don't grill me. All right. All right. You're right. I support you. I support you. I love you and I support you.

want to say I don't usually we don't usually sort of like back promote but I do want to say if you haven't a chance to watch or listen to our Agatha all along finale podcast uh the showrunner Jack Schaefer just was so generous with her time and with her answers for us and we just had a wonderful conversation with her that I think is is just really worth uh listening to or watching uh if you've got a couple hours to spare the interview itself's not a couple hours the podcast is um

That was so fun. I absolutely loved that. I really loved that pod. Well, that season of television, I'm talking about it with you. I know. I'm really sad that it's over. But here we are in The Penguin. So, okay. So I said all of that stuff. And then also, what about... Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Poppins and dragons at gmail.com. Indeed. That's our email address. And you can always email us about anything you so choose. People are still signing it with their pickle, signing it with their Apple choices, signing it in a Maria. Like we're still getting all the, all the greatest hits are happening in the inbox all the time. So thank you so much for your emails. Keep them coming. As we look forward to things like silo, doom prophecy, um,

all the stuff that's on the horizon that we're really excited about or the penguin finale thoughts. We would love to, to hear them when, when you get a chance to see that episode. Craven, the hunter, Craven, the hunter gladiator. How about, how about let's compromise. Gladiator. Yeah. Thighs o'clock. All right. Last programming reminder. You know what it is. It's the friendly neighborhood. Spoiler warning. Today's podcast will feature plot points from the penguin.

every episode of the penguin that's aired to this point, we'll be talking a lot about five, six and seven, but if it's happened this season, it might come up today. If it happened in the Batman, it might come up today. If it happened in DC comics, it might come up today. It's entirely possible. Okay. Joe, the city hall fucks are sitting in some fancy private club drinking orange wine.

Oz with the orange wine shot. That really got me. I love an orange wine. Let me say that. Anyway, no orange wine for us right now. Just coffee and water. True. Some bubbly for you, I think. No free ads. Let's pod. Let's begin, as always, with the opening snapshot. ♪

Joe, we are going to chat about episode five, Homecoming, episode six, Gold Summit, and episode seven, Top Hat. Just like for the first pod that we did on The Penguin, our mid-season catch-up, we have 10 awards coming shortly, 10 superlatives. There are some repeat superlative categories. There are some new ones. But before we get to them, quick overall impressions of this stretch of The Penguin. What did you make of five, six, and seven?

I thought we both agreed that three and four were just like extremely wonderful episodes of television. And so I think I felt a little bit of a dip in this stretch. I thought seven was quite strong. You and I, I think agree on that. But I did think five and six felt like a little bit of a dip for me, but not like a significant dip. But my, my sort of strongest takeaway was,

Putting all this together, thinking about the episodes, putting together our superlatives. I was like, all my candidates for favorite scenes, all my candidates for, you know, favorite character moment or, like, fashion moment. It was all Sophia stuff. Oh, interesting. And so, like, I think not only is Kristen Migliani absolutely crushing it, I just think at least in this stretch, the writers seemed much, have much more to say about

about, despite the main flashback centering on Oz, much more to say about Sophia and who she is and what's on her mind. I just think all of that stuff was executed more successfully. And there's just like a few, a number of key Sophia and another scene partner conversations that really stood out to me in these episodes. And I could not say necessarily the same thing for Oz. And I say this as

Genuinely the world's biggest Colin Farrell fan. I love Colin Farrell. Same. And I have thought that some of the previous episodes did a better job of keeping Oz a very compelling figure, but this felt a little muddled to me. And I think especially episode five felt especially...

sort of directionless in sharp relief with the laser focus of three and four on specific characters. Five just felt sort of like leftovers and leftovers can be quite delicious, but they're maybe not as good as a day of fresh meals. So yeah, I really liked episode seven and we'll talk about finale anticipation in a second, but where were you on five through seven? I, I,

Have enjoyed the show the entire way. So I liked this batch as well. I agree with you on five. That was probably the episode of the season that compelled me the least so far. I also agree that nothing in this run of episodes matched three and four for me. Yeah.

I also agree with you that everything about Sophia is just like God tier right now. Yeah. Truly tremendous. And so the recalibration around her

Oz versus Sophia as like the central thrust that's driving this season is very interesting to me. I think the one thing we're not aligned on is that I actually really enjoyed these episodes from the Oz perspective. So I'm now anticipating in a way that will be fun that we maybe have some different picks coming for our categories, maybe more variants than we had in the, in the mid season pod. So that'll, that'll be nice. Um,

What is your finale anticipation? We've only got one left. We're seven through. We have eight remaining. Are you looking forward to it? Do you think they're going to be able to pull it off? What feels most keen to you at this moment in time heading into the final installment? Had you asked me mere hours ago, my answer would have been different. But right before we started recording our...

beloved Stephen Allman, who has already seen the finale episode and I have not, told me that he thought it was tremendous and that they really like stuck the landing and had a wonderful finale and it just like really was solid. So now I'm just like, I'm very excited. I was just like, I was a little nervous because this just felt, it felt like we were on like

slight downward trend in the season or just like a little bit, but as often the case in like the middle of a season can feel a little softer than the beginning of the end. So if, if the finale is gangbusters, as Steven has promised me on, on, on his life and soul, then, you know, I'm, I'm excited. I'm very excited. What about you? Yeah. Yeah. I'm hyped. I think that because in the opening for season,

The first two were less successful in our minds than three and four. The fact that five gripped me a little bit less didn't really throw me all that much because it felt like such an active reset in terms of what the kind of just like central focus of the character dynamic was going to be and the conflict was going to be. So because I felt really...

positive about episode seven i now i'm like okay maybe we're on another upswing yeah like we were at the end of the first half i'm really looking forward to the finale i feel genuinely very very worried not about the show doing a good job but about like basically every character level of tension is so high yeah for so many people that uh i like that i like going in

with my nerves on edge and in a way that makes it feel like I have invested in the characters to this point. I mean, especially since we don't know anything about the future. Like, this is a limited series, right? Yeah. And, like... Yeah, who knows what we're getting from here with these characters. Everything we know about what's going on at DC right now is that, like...

Like James Gunn is sort of like actively quashing Matt Reeves projects. So like this might be it. And so, you know, you think of something like Colin Farrell's a penguin and you're like, well, he has to live because he's the show's called The Penguin. Well, not if it's like a limited series and we're getting maybe one more Batman movie from Matt Reeves in this world and that's it. Like, you know, so yeah, everything's everything's on the line. And that's exciting.

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This episode is brought to you by Netflix. There's never been a night this big on Friday, November 15th. Netflix and most valuable promotions bring you the highly anticipated boxing mega event.

of the year. Jake El Gallo Paul will go toe-to-toe in the ring against Mike Tyson, the baddest man on the planet, really since I've been a teenager. This is the fight the world has been waiting for. Watch Paul versus Tyson, Friday, November 15th, 8 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific, live on Netflix. Pleased to be. So, yeah. Should we go to our subreddits? Let's do it. Should we hit the highlights? Let's do it. Steve, can you set the mood for us? Come on, Jesus Christ, man.

You know, yeah. Awards.

You know what Oz would bring to an awards rundown after hearing that. Felt like the right way to enter into this shared exercise. All right, Jo, we are going to begin with the same category we started with in our mid-season pod. Favorite episode. We've both already said episode seven, Top Hat. Yeah. Why? I think it's not just... There's the really juicy flashback stuff for Oz, the revelation about what happened with his brothers, and...

a tremendous performance from this kid playing young Oz. We both really, really liked him. I also just loved him in the little inside episode, listening to him analyze Oz. It's like, give this kid a podcast. Let's go strong theater kid energy off that kid. And I love it. Uh, also great stuff from the, from the, uh, young woman playing younger Francis, I thought. So like just really good flashback stuff, but then also incredible Sophia stuff in this episode. Um,

And a little less Victor. Like, Victor has been a little underserved. Well, no, actually, I'm not sure. He had big stuff happen in the stretch of the episode. So, yeah, episode seven. Just, like, our two leads had some, like, juicy revelatory moments. Sal Moroney goes out like an absolute chump, which I was a little dissatisfied by. But then that clip you just played of, like, Oz's reaction to, like, this is it.

this is what winning feels like, feels so empty, I thought was really effective. So, yeah. This was a very tense, very tight penultimate episode. This is the official runtime is 47 minutes, and that includes the previously on the credits, like all that. So this was easily the shortest episode of the season, I think. And much like Sophia's Arkham flashbacks and episode three,

I just loved the young Oz origin story, the flashbacks that bookended this episode and the insights that they provided about Oz and Francis. This is, like you said, an amazing Francis episode in both the past and the present. Oz and Rex. Rex has been this specter across the season and to get to really see young Oz look...

look at him and interact with him and call out to him, even though his brother told him not to, lust after the gold car, et cetera. And then everything with Jack and Benny with the brothers. Spoiler alert, I've got more coming on that in another category, so I'll save my thoughts on that. But it wasn't just a great flashback episode. Like you said, Oz killing Sal, I think I have some notes for the Maronis on their tactics. I would go into this lair with more men or make sure that there were fewer men from Oz's camp in there. But I thought the

Shit pipe comment from Sal. You know, another way to just show us what other people think of us.

Oz, the low esteem they hold him in, like a lot of shorthand in this episode to effectively reinforce his position in Gotham. And that response that Oz had to Sal dying, I just loved what it told us about him. The rage that he feels, even though he is, his foe is dead. And as Oz is saying, he has won. Like the fact that he couldn't be responsible, that he couldn't kill him. He just needs such control over every outcome. And

Like you said, on the Sophia front, and I think this is among the reasons why this was the best episode of The Stretch. I think part of why I picked three last time as my favorite over four, even though four was so great, is because like we talked about at the time,

I'm really enjoying the episodes that give us a lot of balance across the protagonists, like that make room for both Oz and Sophia inside of the episodes. I thought that modern day Sophia Francis scene was electric. The unrelenting vitriol that Francis spews at Sophia shitting on the man. It's like, what, you don't like color?

Mocking Sophia's daddy issues, calling her an easy mark for Oz. You're stealing my favorite scene. You're stealing my favorite scene. It's your favorite episode. I will say no more about it other than that, like, of course I respected that Sophia met that in equal measure with what she said to Ma in turn, which I'll look forward to talking about when you have that coming in a later scene. Sophia and Gia, I also thought was just incredible the way that, like,

It was interesting to hear, too, after the episode that they repurposed the Arkham set for Brookside. So literally when those memories are resurfacing, it's like she is walking through her own trauma. And then to see her start with the lie and then immediately just sit down and say this horrible thing out loud to this little girl because she had to confront the fact that she was doing to Gia what her family did to her was incredibly effective. And then how that builds into Sophia's decision...

when she goes to Julian and says, like, I went from one institution to another and then decides to issue that challenge to Oz to not back down, like,

It wasn't the twist that there's a bomb in the car instead of Francis's body. I think we all saw that coming. That was not a surprise. It was what she said. It's what we heard at the top of the episode. Like, you think you know what I want? The way that Sophia has emerged as a character who is ready to say to everyone, you don't know what I want. The thing I want is not the thing you want for me or that you want for yourself or that you've been trying to tell me I want my entire life. And it's just, it's, it's,

It's amazing to watch. I'm with you 100% on Sophia. So this was, yeah, the Victor Light nature of the episode was kind of like the only knock on it for me. Other than that, I really loved it. Yeah. I'm just going to roll into my favorite scene. Do it. Favorite scene. I didn't mean to throw a small hint. No, no, no. Let's do it. I was just like, oh, no. Favorite scene, second category. Hit us. I think like the smuggle for me in this is like, is Gia and Sophia...

Eve and Sophia and Francis and Sophia. I think all of those scenes were truly incredible. I have the Eve one coming later. Great. Great. We'll put a pin in that. But like the Francis stuff was so good to me because I think and coupled with the Gia scene because it's

shining this light on... We're watching Sofia's rise and her makeover, how her hair gets even punkier, mulletier, and the eye makeup gets more dramatic, and the scars... I can't wait for your thoughts on the mullet. I'm so excited. The scars are on full display. Everything is just sort of like...

like bumped up. And then for Francis is so derisively say like, they're going to die. You have pink and a tattoo on your ass. You know, daddy won't like that. You know, like all of that, just so, and for her to like, take, like absorb that and just be like, fuck, that is what I'm doing, you know, to a certain degree. So like we were rooting for her on this rise and for the show to then be like, wait, but is she actually,

is she not breaking the wheel? She just participating in it once again to, to watch her watch Gia for her to process that, to stand outside the room and process that. Again, Chris Omelade is just like absolutely incredible. And then also just the compassion she has. Like, yes, she will shoot Johnny Vini in the head and we might come back to that or, you know, I,

on the last pod. I was like, I can't wait in a second to learn everything there is to know about Johnny Vitti. And it turned out it was just that he got really cold in the mausoleum and then got shot in the head in front of everyone. I was thinking of you keenly when that happened. I was like, well, curtains for Johnny Vitti. Yeah.

You know, so, you know, the thing I texted you about was she has this, like, sadomasochistic sexual relationship with Dr. Julian Rush. And my main note for her in general is, like, aftercare is an important part of that dynamic. And she just offers him none. I'm just saying, this is my constructive criticism for her. If you want to, I think she doesn't give a shit about Julian, but I'm just saying. Yeah.

you're losing loyal henchmen by the day. He seems quite devoted. If you want to keep that going, practice just a little bit of aftercare. Tie him up, cut him up, whatever it is you do. But then you got to cuddle afterwards. You got to make sure that he feels okay. That's what aftercare is. When you texted me about aftercare, what did you think I meant? So you meant...

I thought you were going to have some hygiene notes, not necessarily some emotional notes. I thought we were going to have a little bit of a, like, you know, Roz had her vag bowl after Paisel, et cetera, and Sophia just sort of gets dressed and then goes to sit down to have a meal. Oh, I'm sorry. Let's clean up a little. I thought I was talking about the bowl washing. No, I meant, like, you know, you have your power...

dynamic, fun. Yeah. Then you have to like show the person that you care about them. I know she doesn't actually care about Julian, but here we are. Um, anyway, I, I, I love this abrupt turn where we're tracking Sophia's rise and we're like, yes, yes, yes. Like, right. Yeah.

girl boss, like do it. And then we're brought up short by Francis and by Gia and by Sophia herself to be like, oh no, is this actually, and this is the trap you fall into all the time when you find yourself rooting for an antihero, right? When you find yourself rooting for Walter White or something like that, you're like, yeah, fuck everyone else up. Absolutely. And then Skylar White's like, um, what are we, what are we doing here? What are we doing here, Sophia? So I want

genuinely what's best for her in life. She's probably, that's probably not on, on offer in Gotham, but that is something that I would like for her. And yeah, her compassion for Eve, her compassion. It's what I'm choosing to call it for Gia and, and her compassion for Francis and her respect for those other women, I think is, has, was a really compelling part of these couple episodes for me. I agree. I think to the point about how the show is, is,

forcing us to confront the villainous nature of both of the leads, that's been the great achievement of the series so far. We are, because we are, we do have such empathy for both Sophia and Oz. Yeah.

But then not to, I keep spoiling all of and tipping all of my picks. I don't know what's wrong with me. Not to, not to get ahead. And, you know, we'll, we'll, we're going to talk about Victor and squid more later spoiler, but something like that, you know, when Victor decided to stay, we cheered like we were, I was happy that he was with Oz, even though I was mourning the better life that he didn't go lead, like that he didn't get on the bus. Yeah.

You want him and Oz to be together, but you know he should leave. And then you see how quickly he loses his innocence when he stays. And it's just like the show making us complicit in that is, I think, very effective. I agree. I think maybe if his decision to stay hadn't come so close to the first murder he commits via vehicle. He shows up and we're excited that he has rescued Oz. But then they betray Sophia in that very second. And he...

kills someone with a car. I presume that person did not survive that. Maybe it's just like a bruised pelvis. No? No, that's what Dr. Julian Rush has. So, like, I think that, like...

I think Victor, all these steps that Victor's take have been associated with a bit of dread. There's like, there's like you watching them watch the sunrise at the end of episode one. It has all the trappings of like a hopeful future, but every step Victor takes is deeper into. And for like people who've watched,

the wire and watched characters like Michael on the wire. Like you've watched stories like this before where you're just sort of like, Victor, I'm rooting for you. I care so much about you, but every step you take is closer to like a path of no redemption for you. And in fact, you might already be there and that's devastating to watch. So yeah. That was on the Sophia Francis scene. That was the other thing I really loved about it was because again, there are these parallels across the characters. They're all different. They have their

specific circumstances, but they share so many traits. And so it's extra powerful to hear Sophia, not only because she is standing up in the active resistance of Francis saying like, you know, you're an easy mark, et cetera, but the way that she said, but those things don't make you a monster. Do they? Someone shaped him. And like,

makes us think about that, makes Francis think about that. And then like, well, who is that person for Victor? It's Oz and the way that the cycle continues. Yeah, those things were great. Who is that person for Gia? Is it Sophia? Like, and I think that, um,

For Frances specifically, so Deirdre O'Connell, who is like a Tony Award winning actress, like there are, there have been scenes in previous episodes where I was just sort of like, this feels a bit one note, this feels a bit, you know, like irritating to a certain degree. And

But her scene with Sophia and some of her stuff with Victor in these episodes just really, really landed for me in a way that I really loved. I agree. Her Oz cuddling with her in bed, maybe not so much. What did she have more notes on? The full-on spoon sesh in bed or the way that he was like painting her like a doll and applying her makeup and then telling her how gorgeous she looked.

It was powerful. It was the spoon. It was the spoon. Yeah.

It was just voting for me. And at least she was like, get the fuck off me. But when he got it in the first place, I was like, too close, too close, too close. What are we doing? Too close. I hated it. I hated it. We were getting into full-on Game of Thrones incest territory at that point. We were. We were. This is part of young Oz's motivation, right? He wants his mom's full attention. Loves a snuggle. Yeah. Loves a snuggle. Let's just snug up and watch Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. Who says no?

A lot of run time for Ginger. For friend Ginger. In this stretch of episodes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My favorite scene. I also have a smuggle. My smuggles also involve Sophia. But I am going with... I actually pride myself. Unlike last pod, I'm not picking a favorite scene from the favorite episode. I'm going to shake it up a little bit. So I am going with an episode five and an episode six duo here. Mm-hmm.

The Sal and Sophia impromptu meals. That's what I'm going to call this smuggle. I thought this is like in general, a fascinating dynamic. It's great to get more. We were saying in the mid season pod, like Brown was great. I had a similar moment when he died. I was like, well,

Yeah, until he dropped dead in the trolley. For Clancy, I guess. Nice to get a little bit more with Sal. So episode five is when Sophia finds him in his hideout after the hit from Oz backfires. And Sal's basically like, thanks for the keys along with the ship. Great stuff. Badass. Wild. And I just love the way that Sophia arrived. You know, you hear the gunfire first and then it's like, what funky hideout? Big fan of wood, I see.

Do you think Sophia watches Curb? Like, do you respect wood? Then we get the line about, you know, the insight into Sophia's thoughts on how takeout travels and holds up. I'd like to talk to Sophia about my personal feelings about the delivery economy. Can I just tell you, can I tell you a life-changing situation? Sure. The town that I live in right now has very,

poultry delivery options. This is a trade-off for moving from Oakland to Slate Sticks. But the vegan restaurant, which is amazing, has these incredible nachos they make. When they deliver, the nacho...

stuff comes separate from the chips. Yeah, of course. Otherwise, well, you say, of course, but I think that most delivery nachos don't take that step. And then it's just sog city. And, and I just, I just want to applaud this particular restaurant and their fake meat. It's great stuff. Sog city. I like it. I'm putting it up there with soggy bottom. Great one. Great, great work. Uh,

whether it was that the food was too soggy or too congealed, who can say? But what we do know for sure is that Sophia was like, here's what my dad thought of you. He thought you were too sentimental. He thought you were too weak. And the thing I loved about this scene then is that the bridge to their surprising alliance is that the thing that Carmine hated about Sal is the thing that

that Sophia craves. This guy actually gave a shit about his family. So when she says, my driver betrayed me, the daughter of the Don, and then was rewarded, like, would you have done this? Would you have let this stand? And of course the answer is no. He says, I would have ripped out his tongue and left him for the vultures. And that brings me to then the second part of the smuggle, the episode 16 on the heels. This was my, I think, again, it's favorite scene, favorite scene of the stretch here.

The thing that I loved is that I wrote down in my notes, like with an eye roll, oh, here comes like the stereotypical, we're making the sauce scene from like a monster thing. And then he's making one of his wife's dishes. I loved that. The eggplants, the tomato, a little meat, try it with the yogurt, like Taj liked it. Just in case Taj doesn't come up again today, by the way, let's take a quick moment here. This is not thick from either Rush for Favor scene, to be clear, however. Back to that.

The full, the back tat and the TikTok. The TikTok account. The posting on TikTok so that they knew where he was and could go kidnap him. And the fact that he's just like smoking and has his headphones on and is completely oblivious to his guards getting annihilated. Yeah.

Incredible stuff. That was not, but it was almost my needle drop for the stretch was Taj's headphones. Taj's top of the line noise canceling headphones. Also the fact that the back tat is like a Phoenix. Ben Affleck. Affleck core. Ben core. Bless his heart. As Jen Garner said, bless his heart.

Love it. Oh, man. So Sophia goes from the room with Julian right out to the kitchen and finds Sal cooking the meal, makes the comment about how fugitives really shouldn't leave their rooms, but then they just fall into such a

easy rhythm with each other, the way that she offers to just help chop the vegetables. He tells her about learning that recipe from Nadia. She gives him the better bowls to use, the better china to use. And then like the way he watches her inhale the meal, how ravenous she is. We talked about that in the last pod, you know, life after Arkham and just the way that his emotion over his family, after she mentioned Taj, um,

was threatening to consume him, but then they kind of both pull their focus back to this shared mission of Oz. I just really love that scene. And, you know, you can, you feel on the heels, especially of the forging of the Alliance in episode five,

They're both craving this thing. They couldn't get it with their own families for very different reasons. Right. But they couldn't get it. And so now they have it with each other very briefly. But they do. And I thought that was lovely. Sal and Sophia together, but also Sophia and Oz. The parallels are crazy in terms of the big speeches they give about like, you

you know, the fat cats didn't know what I was back to. And I will, I will, you can own this with me, all that sort of stuff. And that like thirsting for connection and family Oz,

creepily with his mom, less creepily with Victor and Sophia, creepily with Julian and less creepily with Sal. Yeah, I thought it was, I loved that scene. It was great. Great pick. It was really good. On the parallel front, I do really love that the specific, right down to like specific language, the whole, Sophia and Oz both forging their new. Yeah.

Yeah. Families with the they don't know our names pitch was great. Also, on the South Sophia front, I wanted to use this for my Sophia clip that we're about to talk about next, but it didn't really translate. But it's when Sal turns on the fireplace, the music starts, and she just goes like, I know. I know. Love a callback. I know. Wonderful stuff.

Okay, let's get to our next category, which is our favorite Oz and Sophia clips yet again. Do you want to start with Oz or do you want to start with Sophia? Oh, I have to start with my Oz clip and you will soon hear why Steve King playlist. You know, not even a mile from here.

It's a bunch of big time city hall fucks sitting in some fancy private club. They're drinking orange wine to make a crooked deals to benefit them. Drinking orange wine. I had to dedicate that to Mallory Rubin, number one orange wine drinker in my life. I love an orange wine. I do. I don't think of you as a fat cat in city hall making deals to benefit yourself, Mallory. But I was just like, wow.

That was for you. I felt like that line was just for you. Number one orange drinker in my life. Orange wine drinker in my life. Thanks, buddy. You're welcome. That's really sweet. Hal, my Oz pick, it involves councilmen as well. Steve, can we hear my Oz clip? Come here. Hey, stop, stop. Oh, maybe I just talked to the Gazette. But they'd love to see how you page a gambling debt with city funds.

You think you can just raw dog the people of Gotham with an invisible dick, that it? Let me say this about Oscop. Complicated legacy. This guy is a fucking poet. You think you can just raw dog the people of Gotham with an invisible dick. This is what he says to Councilman Haiti at his car. That is...

Astonishing. But on the one hand, I agree that he is a poet. On the other hand, did you have a moment when he just coined the phrase gold summit to describe it? I was just sort of like...

Okay. Yeah. Sure. Gold like the beer you're serving? I don't know. Gold like all the money we're going to make? What are you talking about? The cooler folk beer in the back of the pickup was an incredible... I'm here to remind you that I'm just a kid from the East Side. Just a guy. Just a guy being a bro. Just a bro being a pal. Oh, Oz. Okay, what's your Sophia clip? Steve. Nice! This was the best. This was the best. Let's play it. What does he like?

He's not that complicated. So he's the best. What else? He is for greatness. I used to lie to men like that. You don't have to anymore. You have the power now. You are good at telling people what they want to hear.

Outstanding. Outstanding stuff. Great sequence between these two characters. And then, like, because we had been anticipating this, right? We had watched Sophia clock her. We knew something like this was coming. I genuinely wasn't sure whether or not she was going to kill her in this scene. It really could have gone either way as far as I was concerned. That sort of shared the information not, like, specifically

squeezed out via violence but like sort of coaxed out via you know shared point of view a shared experience in the world i thought was incredible and then i loved i mean like obviously christine really funny as she's circling her and doing this like breathy line read but then also for eve to then do the same exact thing to her and her say i see exactly what you're doing you're doing what you did for him um i just thought it was wonderful great stuff

This will be in the Emmy reel for sure. And I just thought I used to lie to men like that was one of the lines of the season. And one of the examples of how the show is effectively summing up a character's journey and evolution in shorthand. It was just incredible performance, incredible writing, great dynamic between two characters we were eager to see together.

Perfect scene, perfect line. I used to lie to men like that. I have no notes. Genuinely none. This is wonderful. I think we're about to stay on Sophia for a second because based on our opening snapshot, my assumption, our next category is most compelling character of the stretch. Are you going to hit Sophia here or... It's Sophia, but I don't have much more to say in addition to what we've already said. What do you want to... Is Sophia your character? No. Tell me who your character is and what you want to say about them. Is it...

Oz. Kat. My character is Johnny Vidi. Johnny! Sadly not. If only. If only. It could have been Johnny Vidi. I was deprived of the opportunity to be compelled by Johnny Vidi in the second half of the season of television. He could have been a contender, but no. He went to meet his lady love in the afterlife. Though he did have that great scene where he was talking about Sophia's mom. That was like a good, a really good moment. Shivering in the cold.

Begging for his life only to get got at the table in front of everyone. As a fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I'm a huge fan of a mausoleum. So I was excited to see the mausoleum get used there. Okay, well, who is your character? My character is Oz Cobb. Okay, tell me why.

So as was the case last time, this was kind of a coin flip to me between Oz and Sophia. Not Dr. Julian Rush? No? Not Dr. Julian Rush, no. I continue to have some notes for Dr. Julian Rush. HIPAA has some notes too. Okay, go ahead. Yeah, indeed. My assumption was that you would have Sophia, so I thought I would go with Oz here. You know, I think we're covering like a lot of the particulars in other characters, but broadly, I felt like I gained in these episodes more

deeper understanding of what drove Oz to this place, like why he is this way. And again, like we were already talking about the way that these episodes forced us to confront that this guy's not, he

He's the protagonist, but he's not the hero of the story. He's a monster. And to see the things that he does to people, including the people in his life, like his brothers, who he should protect, is absolutely harrowing. And I just love what a mess of contradictions he is. And I enjoyed the way that we got to really see that in a number of different respects across the episodes. When Victor goes to him after killing Squid...

Yeah.

the underground trolley tunnels where he left his brothers to die as his new headquarters. Like, good God. What does that tell us about Asghar? Watching him abandon his men at the end of this last episode and go through a similar, not the same, but a similar hatch

in the underground. I'm just sort of like, oh, so literally nothing has changed. And every time you make a bid for like family and camaraderie and we own this together and like every single alliance he makes, he breaks as soon as possible, which is what, you know, of course, good old Dr. Pierre Chang tried to say. Call it out. Yeah. And everyone was like, I'm going to crack

these beers anyway. He tried, he tried. I think too, the way that in this stretch, Oz's inadequacy and boastfulness, like that loud superiority, but also all of the inferiority that's driving it are just so palpably inextricable from each other. We already talked about the reaction to Sal's death, the appeal to Councilman Haiti, just even the

initial approach there. Like I'm not just Carmine's guy, you know, like you need to respect me, but also I'm here basically doing the dirty work myself. Like I've got the pliers directly in your nose, the pitch that he made to on the gold summit front, the, not just the pitch that he made to the, the, the five, uh, gangs that he's seeking to, uh,

and have team up so that they can challenge Sophia and Sal. But that was even the pitch he made to his own men, like to his own lieutenants initially, you know, and like we, like you said earlier, the, the parallel there was Sophia, um,

When she said, none of you are made men except for Johnny here. The rest of you, you're pawns. You're overlooked. You're expendable. And then we moved to the Gold Summit. And it's like, they run shit, we eat shit. And that's the pitch from Oz. That was almost my line. Fantastic. They run shit, we eat shit. It's so good. Really good. So, so, so good. I love, too, again, the additional glimpses into the Rex obsession in these episodes. Because we talked about this in the first pod. It was very clear that that was the image that Oz...

was seeking for himself, you know, the legacy that he was trying to cultivate, like he wanted to be the provider, but then the fact that he has really no awareness that he's also a cause of destruction, I felt was fascinating in these episodes. Like he's, he's bragging to Vic about how they're enriching the lifeblood

of the inhabitants of Crown Point, but then he's flooding every borough of Gotham with bliss. Like he's a cause of harm, but he's going to sit there and talk about all the people he's helping. And he genuinely doesn't seem to see the difference. I find that fascinating. And then he's just like, it's all legacy. He did get the lights on the music as well. I loved it. Love to dance. I have a question about Rex Calabrese. Uh,

as played by... Victor from Billions. Okay. You know Billions is not a show that I enjoyed at all, but Louis Cantelmi has shown up in Scorsese films. He's just a guy with a face. And I was just really excited to see him here. Do you think...

There's a version of events where Rex is his father. I was going to ask you the same question. I didn't want to expose that I had missed a key line in a, you know, like, well, I guess it's possible we both did, but I don't think so. And I would say just as it feels to me, I don't know if there's enough time for this in one episode, but it feels to me just like in the first four episodes, we were like, boy, we've gotten all this rich backstory for Victor, for Sophia. We have these like couple lines.

lines about Oz's brothers. It seems like there's more to come there. And then boy was there. We have a lot of lines in these episodes about Oz's father, but we don't know the story. Right. So, I mean, I think obviously Rex and Francis have had a relationship. They had an interaction. So. All right. Just, well, like if he finds, if he didn't know Rex is his father and he finds out he was his father, um,

Will that destroy his idea of Rex as this like hero because he's like he was right there and he didn't like take care of us, you know, something like that. Like, I don't I don't know, but it's just sort of like this. The Rex stuff feels like it has to be building towards something more than just like this is who I'm modeling myself after, you know. So, OK, in real time, this is occurring to me because.

One of the things I was going to ask you is... Joanna can turn any show into a theory show. I love it. I didn't know quite how to make this work in my head. I was trying to figure out what Julian and Sophia are doing with Francis could lead to Francis finding out what Oz did with Jack and Benny. That was what I was trying to piece together because Francis doesn't know that Oz is responsible for that, clearly. But even just the way that Sophia...

repeated their names. I'm like, I feel like they're going to piece something together and present it to Francis and Oz and something's going to come to a head there. Yeah, I agree. This could be the thing. It could be all part of it. As well. If Francis spits that back at him, they weren't even like your brothers or like whatever. Yeah, or like if she told Julian something. Yeah.

Like under those red lights that Sophia can now use to disarm us. I want to say really quickly, I'm sure you already knew this. I just made an error when talking about this last time that the type of therapy that Dr. Jillian Rush is using is

though his methods may be in general is EMDR therapy is just like a known way to uncover trauma, traumatic memories. So the lights and all the, you know, so I was like him with his spooky lights. And then we got emails from people like, actually that is a well-respected method of therapy. So my apologies to you, Dr. Julia Rush. You're a creep, but not, not your, your light rig is innocent. Okay. Yeah.

A lot of Julian talk today. I was going to say I was not anticipating this, but I was. I love Theo Rossi. Yeah, he's great. He's a wild card for me in the finale. Oh, yeah. Same. Yeah. Yeah.

Lastly, on the why I picked Oz for most compelling character of the stretch front, just everything with Ma. Again, we've chatted about a lot of this already. The brother reveal, got more coming on that in another category. I think that the jealousy, now that we have the context of watching young Oz, the way that he...

When his brothers came into the room, everything changed for Oz. He just wanted to be alone with his mother. The way he's looking past Benny to make sure he can leer at Jack and Frances on the couch, it makes something like the look that Oz had for Victor and Frances during the breakfast scene when Frances was patting Victor's cheek and mistaking him for one of her sons and calling him Biscuit.

that makes me like, cause I found the relationship between Francis and, and Victor, just like you quite charming and sweet. Like watching them dance together was just the way he's caring for her. Like when he saw the bruise on her arm and he was so genuinely concerned, it makes us love Victor. But I saw that look on Oz's face and I, and then we move on and understand his history. And I'm like, fuck. So all of that is very rich. And then that, that bathtub scene, first of all, let me say this, the water's fucking freezing. How long you been in here?

That's what Adam says to me every time I've enjoyed a nice long bath listening to The Watch. The Watch.

When you listen to The Watch in the bath, a core Mallory experience, do you ever quaff a glass of orange wine while you're doing so? You know, I don't actually. Maybe you should. Maybe I should start. Yeah. I don't drink wine in the bath, but maybe I'll start. Maybe this will be something I introduce into my life next year. I also have to interrogate this apocryphal story you just told here because no episode of The Watch is long enough for the bath to go ice cold. How some are, sure. Yeah.

A bath can turn cold in a 54-minute span. Not that cold. I really feel like if you want to die from hypothermia in the bath, you got to tune into Aslamar. That's a promise. Oh, man. Fair note. Fair note. The way that Frances begged her son to kill her rather than letting her continue to deteriorate, as she put it,

if my mind goes before my body is ready. And the tenderness, but also despair with which Oz greeted that, the tears in his eyes as he says, can't do it and it ain't natural. And then the way that that moved from right into this like very warped aspect of their relationship because we have his devotion to her. Yeah.

but also the way that she speaks to him. Like, her response to that is, no, no, don't you pussy out on me, Oswald. It just was such a rich little sequence for their relationship. And so, again, I ask now, heading into the finale, do you think that this scene is setting up Oz letting Sophia kill Francis? Because he basically already has permission. I don't know. More than permission from her. I don't know that I can see that coming, but I can...

It is very important for us, the audience, to know that Frances wants to die. So if Sophia kills her or something like that, that sort of like, you know, lessens the crime of it because Frances is ready to go. Stuff like that. When Frances says, we talked about this, I think I...

had trouble articulating myself around this when we were discussing the ways in which Lilia's episode in Agatha was sort of like this dementia metaphor, but like, I find it very affecting when characters talk about dementia as like a thief. And I think specifically to contrast Agatha,

you know, her more confused episodes with how razor sharp she is with Sophia when she's able to focus. And then she like loses focus inside of that same scene. But like all of that is tremendously effective. Again, Deirdre O'Connell is really, really good. And I just think that like also to see the difference between

For instance, before she lost her sons to after she loses her sons. You know, like that transition as well. With very little, like the show can be so effective with like very little...

actual screen time or explanation. It hinges on performance in a way that's very enriching. So, yeah. Yeah. Even like the way we had heard her say, you know, she couldn't do her numbers anymore, but we don't really understand what that means. And then we see in the next episode the flashback. She's sitting. She's running the books. She's working the... Yeah, I agree. Last thing on the Oz point, you know...

The humor. It's less voluminous in this stretch of episodes than the first half of the season, but it is still there. We did get to hear him say, who are you missing? That skinny little pussy, Johnny Vidi. Milos, the guy wore lifts in his shoes. We all knew. Tough for Milos in death there. All right. Maybe your pick for this next category will be Johnny. Maybe it'll be someone else. I don't know. Could be.

Fifth superlative, the character you wish we had gotten to spend more time with in these three episodes, Joanna Robinson. Yeah, thank you so much, Molly Rubin. Back to you in the studio. It would have been... I did write Johnny Vini down. Hell yeah. If we had not already made like 10 different references to him. If this is the first time he came up, I would have been like, remember how we won more time with Johnny Vini? Rest in pieces. But my backup, and this is just as good, I think, in my own view is...

Con O'Neill as Mackenzie Bach, Con O'Neill, who, uh, was in the Batman. This is another character connection to the Batman, uh, GCPD, uh, chief Bach. Um, I thought his scene with Sophia was really good. I really love Con O'Neill as a performer in general. He's like super distinctive voice, everything about him. I just thought, uh, I really loved him in the Batman too. And, uh,

And so I would have loved to have seen more of him. And it made me go down the rabbit hole. I was like, what happened to that GCPD show they were going to do? And I was like, oh, it became that Arkham Asylum show, which then James Gunn killed. Because we're getting these GCPD...

sort of ties in this show. So I was like, are we trying to set something further up? And maybe it will pitch forward to Batman, the Batman 2. But anyway, Con O'Neill, legend. Justice for the Our Flag Means Death fans. Okay, go ahead. What were you going to say? I love that show. No, you didn't.

Love. I think you honored, as usual, the spirit of the exercise more. Oh, Maura, I think you honored the spirit of the exercise more precisely than I did. I'm going with a character we actually got a few meaty scenes with and we've talked about today, but the scenes were so good. I just, it made me want even more.

I'm going with Eve. I agree. I really hope we get Eve. I don't, I mean, we've already loaded the finale with a bunch of expectations, so I don't know what room there is for Eve Carlo, but I would love to see her. Yeah. And like the way in which her girls were all so loyal to her and the way in which she rejected, you know, Oz's offer of leading. We had, we had like three really good scenes that all built nicely on each other. We had, um,

Her fury in the fifth episode that Oz showed no respect for the sanctity of her home by stashing Taj there and bringing his men there. And the thing I loved was that she called him out not only in her apparent anger, but when she said to him, baby, do you even know when you're full of shit anymore? Because he's like, no, it's fine. This is all going exactly.

I wanted it to. And it's like, is it? Yeah. I thought it was really important to know that she was a character who would say that to him. And yeah, like her, and then later when he goes to get her after he's killed-

Nadia and Taj horrifically. And Sal is broken out. He's like, I got to make sure the people I love are safe. He goes for her. You know, later we'll hear her tell Sophia, like, he's not going to come for me. But we've seen that he did. Like, he does... He does want to make sure she's okay. But then also we see all of the deception and lack of care inside of the relationship and inside of these scenes. Like, the...

In that prior scene when she was like, you know, me and the girls, you dangled us in front of her because she thinks, like, he has opportunities to tell her that Sophia's not the hangman. Many. Not only over the years, but inside of these episodes. And doesn't, which made it even richer then when that was revealed to Eve from Sophia in that exchange. I love that. And I just thought, like, the way that she... I was so scared in the scene when he went to get her and she refused to go with him because we've seen how Oz responds to rejection. Yeah.

Yeah. The impulsive nature. I was genuinely terrified. And then he's, he like kind of can't even look at her. He's, you know, pounding on a table, but face downcast and saying like,

fucking idiot fucking dumb stupid stupid about himself like that he allowed himself to believe that this was real but then when when Sophia goes to Eve's apartment in episode six after Roxy led her there I love that with the headache easy money easy money so good great businesswoman you know I love the way that even though we have already seen that Eve decided not to go with Oz but

She was ready to defend her relationship with him to Sophia. And more than that, to expose the limitation that Sophia has and not being able to understand that people can have different types of connection with each other or look for different things in a relationship with each other. Right. Like we obviously had the clip that we heard already, but then like across the scene when Sophia says he pays you, I presume, so it can't be love. Right.

And Eve says, like, must be nice. You were born into opportunity so you can afford to think in black and white. What I got with Oz, it ain't just one thing. I know what he is. A liar, a narcissist, killer, but we all got our shit. I,

I just loved that. And then the way that she sat down, I also love the fact that like she, and this is, this is actually something they discuss actively in the beginning of the scene. She opens the door and her sweats, right? Like she's not all done up. And Sophie is like, has Oz seen you like this? And she's like, yeah, I don't like it. Yeah. Like that was all so good. I was wondering, we've been asking again, there's no room for this in the finale. And this is probably the end of this story again, uh, in under the James Gunn administration. But like,

the number of wigs she has there that like, you know, so her last name, Carlo, big for you. Well, yeah, but like her last name, you Carlo had people asking like, is she connected to Clayface at all or something like that? But like, she has this sort of shape-shifting quality to her because she like makes herself look a certain way for whatever her clientele happens to be. And so in that way, it's like,

Clayface and Jace. But yeah, I would love to spend more time with some of these characters. It's really sad that we only have one more episode. I know. I know. It feels like a really well-paced season, but I do wish we had more time. That's the most Baltimore you've ever sounded in your life. I know. I'm going down to the ocean, hon.

Orange wine. Oh, man. Eve, great character. I love how she's able to earn Sophia's respect there, too, right? With, like, the...

The commitment and devotion she has to her girls and the way that that works in all directions, that was great. And then just the choice that she makes to tell Sophia, Crown Point, go to Crown Point. You deserve your shot. That on the heels of the, I didn't tell you I was the hangman. He just let my dad keep killing your friends reveal. That was all just very rich. Great stuff. All right, Jo, what do you have for our next category, which is...

Most illuminating flashback and or trip down memory lane. So it doesn't actually have to be one of the flashback scenes that we got since those were more limited in number in this stretch of episodes. It can be. Or it could just be a story that somebody tells about the past. It can be anything.

Originally, this category was just most illuminating flashback, and I had not watched the final episode yet. And I was like, wow, must be riddled with flashbacks. But they were great. And then you changed the category, which I appreciated. And I thought about

change it to something else. But I just, I mean that the young Oz Cobb kills his brothers. How could it not be this? Come on. I thought it was really well done. I thought I liked the Jack and Betty. I mean, I liked that they weren't assholes. You know what I mean? They didn't like bully their brother. I don't think they felt like they really understood him or felt like

That Oz is, that Oz feeling aggrieved wasn't connected to them actually being assholes to him. They did this hide and seek and he's like, you know I can't go down there. And then they sort of like immediately apologize. Apologize, yeah. You know, and so it's just like. Yeah, it seemed like that was more like a lack of thought rather than act, seeking to actively harm him. And then the Midnight Boys had this debate about whether or not, you know, we feel like what Oz did here was actually murder.

Yes. Okay. And I was rewatching it, sort of trying to think about that. Like him snuggling on the couch with his mom, watching Fred Astaire and an iconic sequence from Top Hat, a film called Top Hat, is every time he just like looks at the rain and doesn't look like troubled. Yeah. Not.

really troubled. And like, there's a, there's a version of the story where Oz doesn't tell his mom because he's like scared about getting in trouble for what he did. There's more anxiety. There's more concern. There's more blah, blah, blah. But he just looks like cozy and comfy getting little head smooches from Francis, uh, in his happy space, watching Fred Astaire do his thing. Uh,

just absolutely disturbing. You know what I mean? And like, so Oz, the character, again, this show has been so good at making us feel empathy. You just, we're just describing how Oz reacts to Eve saying, I'm not going to come with you to crowd point. And he's like turning it inward. Stupid, stupid, all this sort of stuff like that. And I, and I immediately feel like so soft towards him in that regard. And the show can constantly do this, but show us that from a very young age, there's something wrong.

missing inside of oscob uh that he didn't just impulsively do this to his brothers and then like couldn't undo it he ignored every opportunity to undo it and that's where we land so yeah i'm gonna call it moida moida in my uh definitely from my point of view

Oh, man. Yeah, I agree. I mean, we already have chatted a lot about everything earlier in the scene, the way that the air in the room shifts when his brothers come in and how keenly we can sense that he just wants it to be the two of them. Even the musical accompaniment, Islands in the Stream, you know, hold me closer and I feel no pain. We hear, like, this is where we get to hear, like, at a young age, he's hearing this My Big Strong Bull of a Boy talk from Francis. Right.

Again, the response to like, you know, Jack's like, don't, you stay there. Mom doesn't want you talking to Rex. And he's like, hey, Rex, right? And he's like, the gold car, holy shit, the money, oh my God, $50. And it's like, I know what he is. He's a gangster. And he says it with kind of like,

on his voice, right? Very good fellas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I, yeah, my heart broke for him when he was, when he, when he couldn't go down the ladder and says, you know, it's hard for me, but I, to me, the, I love that there's a debate about it and like that it's open to interpretation. But for me, he has every opportunity to go back and open that hatch to tell his mom that

to confess what he did and have her go help them and he doesn't and he looks happy that he hasn't done it and like even when he gets home even if he didn't know necessarily that like closing that hatch would mean that the kids would drown the fact that they were missing in this torrential downpour yeah and he didn't

do anything. It also has a large label on it that says overflow tunnel. We're led to understand that they spend time in that area playing. I don't know. They have the coins. The way that they start gurgling

Oh my God. The cutting, I thought this was great editing, the cutting back and forth. Yeah. I snuggled on the couch and Jack and Benny crying out and then the silence. Just the water pouring out. Yeah. But even just like right when he gets home, right. And he's telling this lie about them. They went to the movie Beetlejuice. And, you know, again, like later Francis is like, what,

what movie did you say it was again? Cause like, I might have to go pick them up. He has, he has every chance and he just never changes his mind. But just the way when she was like, Jack shouldn't have let you walk home by yourself. And he says, I don't need Jack's help. Like he is, he has decided that he wants to be the only boy. This was absolutely harrowing and deeply, deeply disturbing to watch. And, you know, later the second flashback in the episode,

We have heard Oz talk about this. We heard him tell Sophia at Al's funeral about the state that his mother was in after his brothers died and then that night when she took him dancing. And now we understand what led to that. And it's just all plays differently. I liked how these flashbacks recontextualized the earlier moments where Oz has referenced his brothers to somebody. You know,

But also, like, also Frances, like, in her sequined finery and them, like, you know, any, like, dancing that she has done throughout the season. It's horrifying. Yeah. You deserve the best life. I'm going to get it for you. I promise. Right? And it's, like, that was from her – in her moment – from her perspective, that moment is pulling herself out of it. But she has no idea why she's in that state to begin with. And I thought, like –

not just something like mentioning the brothers in episode two to Sophia, but even in this more recent batch of episodes, like Victor asks him in episode five, what happened to Jack and Benny? And Oz says the city took him. The city took him. When he said that... Just like it took your family. Like Victor's family died in a... In a flood. Terrorist attack in a flood. Like Oz left his brothers. He could have gone and opened that door. That's not the same thing. When he said that, when he was like the city took them, I was like... And so...

Not to overthink these things, but like, that's what we do. But like, does Oz think himself somehow as Gotham itself? You know, he's like, I took him, the city took him. But then also he puts it, but he also like hates Gotham and he loves Gotham. And it's all just sort of very messy and Freudian. That sounds like you're describing Gollum just as he hates and loves himself. Yeah.

It's almost time. It's almost time. Oh, man. Man. From this very disturbing moment into our next category? You mean destroy-bing? Destroy-bing moment? Destroy-bing moment?

Is it a particular bit of accent work? What will you pick? These are the newsies. Okay, listen. It's hard to compete with the gurgling cries of Jack and Betty. Very upsetting. Right. Very upsetting. Another elemental death would be the fire roasting of the Maronis. Dude. This was...

Us later being like, what hairspray did she wear? That is actually my most disturbing part. It is them going up in flames. And also that like, that Nadia had like,

Gingerly kind of had time to get out of the way, and she couldn't leave Taj, and that's why she went up in flames. Do you disagree? Okay, so you think she smelled that her child was saturated in gasoline but stayed there rather than not knowing that he was covered in gasoline? That makes more sense to me, actually. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like...

I just think she had time. I like when Taj went up, I was like, oh, she's she could be fine. But then she stayed so close to him and then she went up as well. But yeah, the hairspray comment later was actually, I think, the most disturbing moment because it was bad enough to watch it happen. But to make a hairspray joke about it later was so. That's beyond a pale. I think so. Awesome.

You keep saying you have a code. Do you? Or no. Okay. Yeah. Oh man. My pick is Victor killing squid. I was so, so sad when this happened. Not for me, Joe. It shook me. I mean, we see Vic at the beginning of the episode, you know, arrive with his new Jordans and he's on his bike and he's got the gun. We know he has the gun. Uh, we saw the end of the prior episode, episode five, that squid had spotted him, that he saw Francis. He saw Victor. Like we, we,

We can feel that we're moving toward a conflict here. I thought that the tension to this moment built in actually kind of a predictable fashion, but I still found the emotional wallop of it very impactful.

Vic trying to talk to Oz about it and Oz is so preoccupied. So Vic just wants to prove that he can handle it on his own and then trying to work Squid and evade him and dupe him and buy him off. And then the way that Squid threatens him and goads him and says, see, you're a man now, Victor. You don't got to make it so hard on yourself. I don't know. I couldn't stop thinking about how

the Riddler's attack. Like what we saw in the flashback. Vic just wants to be with his girlfriend and enjoy a night on the roof. He doesn't even want to be near Squid. He doesn't even want to be near him. And now he...

leads him down that stairwell and turns and shoots him and like watches him bleed out and gurgle. Speaking of gurgling, gurgle and die, like the choice of the bullet hit kind of the side of his neck so that it was a kind of protracted, anguished sequence. And Vic's reaction to it, like he's just, he's a husk after this, both in the immediate moment

where he goes to Oz and Oz can tell what happened even though Victor doesn't say it just from how he's carrying himself and the look on his eyes. And then later when he sees the blood specks on his shoes and is trying to scrub it off before the power comes back on and then...

From that loss of innocence, like the crossing of that Rubicon, because even the car, even driving the car into Nadia's goons was more like... Lightly bruising his pelvis. Just a scratch on the hip. Even that was more like...

oh my God, I'm returning and I see this thing and I act on instinct. Like he has to know when he goes to squid that if the money doesn't work, he's going to have to do this thing. This was just, this fellow crossing a Rubicon in a different way than me. No, I agree. And so then like, and like his reaction, because like when he, when he crashes the car, it's like, should we get Sophia? There's like adrenaline or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Like the absolute best.

devastation of having felt like he had no other choice but to do this. Yeah. Yeah. And then to go from seeing the blood on his shoes to that dance with Francis, I don't know, to confront like where he was in his life versus where he could be or where he wanted to be, that kind of like mother-son moment. It was just, oof, boy, shook me. Very good. Really shook me.

Vic. Hope Vic is okay. Hope Vic makes it out. It was quite disturbing. Yeah. I mean, Vic is MIA at the end of this episode. You know, it's like, he can't get in touch with him. He's getting an army. Getting an army, but he's not answering his cell phone. Will he show up just in the nick of time yet again? Joanna. Yeah. Our next category is most captivating location. Do you think he's going to show up

with the hot Latina lesbians who clearly run their own hot Latina lesbian gang that were at the gold summit. I want to know everything about them. They seemed amazing. Um, okay. It was like, like the TV show Vita. Okay. Uh, most captivating location. We're going to zip through these last couple. I think, um, I got to give it to, I love, we, you know, we're in a Batman show. We love an underground lair. Like I have to give it to like the sewers. Um,

in the comics, like there's like Gotham Underground, the Underground Railroad of like criminals, blah, blah, blah. But like, but like the penguin in the sewer is so Batman Returns. Yeah. Danny DeVito. Uh, Batman Returns is my, my, I think my favorite Batman movie. Um,

and so I was just like, I know there was like a Burgess Meredith reference, I think to, uh, the actor who played, uh, uh, the penguin in the, um, Adam West, uh, Batman, uh,

movie and show, but this to me feels like the homage to Burton and Batman Returns. And I love it. This isn't a water world in the source, but still we're under the streets in a secret lair where the penguin is like, it's set up HQ. It's really difficult not to think of the Burton sequence. I also was thinking about our pets, about the Batman and about the fact that like he of course has the, he enters his bat cave on,

on that track, the rail track. So like I had been wondering, I now find this less likely after the explosion because Oz isn't going to be down there anymore. But I was like, are we going to, are we building toward,

a run-in with Batman in the tunnels here, like in the trolley tunnels. Mallory's on the subreddit being like, RPAT's cameo for the finale? Mephisto? When? I probably should spend more time on Reddit. I don't really. But it does feel like maybe my home. Okay. Out of 10, what's the likelihood we get an RPAT's cameo in the finale of The Penguin?

I'm at like a five. I really could go either way on it. I don't know. I'm at a one. It felt to me like, it feels to me unlikely in the universe of the show. I feel like it's more likely we get a Jeffrey Wright, maybe, maybe a Jeffrey Wright cameo. Yeah. And that's still like 304 to me. Our Pats feels wildly unlikely, but.

Yeah, I don't... I'm not expecting it. I'm not expecting it, especially now that the tunnel has gone boom. That would be really comical, though, if they just passed each other. Like in those old Looney Tunes cartoons. Is this your commute, too? It's like the sheepdog and the wolf in the old Looney, and it's just sort of like they clock in and clock out, and they're like, morning, Ralph. Anyway, yeah. That would be great. It does feel like Batman would...

would be involved at this point, I will say. That's like, that is a little odd, but... That's the MCU problem, where it's like, where is Iron Man in this story, where Iron Man certainly would have gotten involved at this point. Yeah, I think particularly given that these are characters who interacted in this exact space and span of time in the film, it's odd. Let's just all hold hands in a prayer circle or a witch's summoning, if you prefer, and hope that

Our past is Batman is off fucking Zoe Kravitz's Catwoman in the neighboring town. That's where I would want to be. That's where I would want to be. Joe, big moment for us on the pod with tunnels recently. You know, we had our Westview subway. Now this. Great stuff. That's what I thought when he was like, oh, it's the Endergan Tram. I was like, oh my God, are you going to the Witch's Road?

I really did love that, like, again, Sal is just like, just like a sewer rat and kind of hand waves. This is like a filthy, laughable place. And Oz looks at it and sees only potential. It's humid. It's a good place to grow mushrooms. It's hidden. They're so busy with their noses up. They'll never think to look down. It's connected. We're going to have access to the entire city. It's a chance to be more like Rex. I can give the people in Crown Point opportunity and money and

And again, I honestly just cannot get over the fact that he has set up shop in the place where he let his brothers die. I just cannot get over it. It's like such a great touch. Do you think when someone said to a rat, he was like, El Rata Alata. I certainly thought that. How could we not? Goodness. El Rata Alata.

That was just a fantastic quote. It's the worst Spanish I've ever heard. All right. It's really great. Joe, we have two categories left and they're both big ones for you. I'm excited for them as well, but it's really Joe core here at the end. We're talking music. We're talking wigs. It's a gift. All right. Number nine, favorite musical moment. We had like a ton of needle drops in these episodes. What are you going with? This is a tough one. Um, like, cause like glow, little glow arm was like pretty wonderful. Um, but,

That's my runner up. The police is pretty wonderful. But for me, it has to be Yazoo's Only You. Yeah. That's what I'm going with. Yeah. Okay. First of all, that's always going to be my pick whenever it's a needle drop. Like fringe, the Americans, normal people. I just fucking love it. I was going to say. Can't hardly wait. Uh, the Americans, normal people. Um,

Also, I think I'm sure I've embarrassingly told you that I was in an acapella group in college and we sang that. I don't find that embarrassing. And we sang this song. So if you ever want like the background. Do you have a recording? Can you send it to me? No.

But if ever off mic, you want me to like do the bada, bada, bada background, you know, score for you. All I needed was the love you gave. There's just like a synth breakdown in that song where it's like bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada

It's a great song. Anytime it's deployed in a show, it works. Anytime. But the specific, like, Oz coming back from leaving his brothers locked in a flooding hatch and this is playing as he just, like, hugs his mom. And he's like, only you, only me, just the two of us forever. It's fine. All I ever knew.

Only you. Great stuff. Okay, I wonder if we'll have the same for our final category, which is Fitlord slash wig watch. Rich text. I mean, the ongoing mulletification of Sophia's hair cannot be ignored, but my- Talk to me about this, please. Well, my, I mean, it's just- Where are you on the party mullet? Oh, well- You love it. Because, you know, she went from like the shag to-

to the full-blown Z's mullet. I loved the shag. The shag was... I miss the shag. The shag was more, I would say, conventionally aesthetically pleasing. I just really like the boldness of the mullet. And also, I like to imagine that she did that to herself. Like, very Azula at the end of Avatar, like, in the mirror, thinking about her mom. Sort of making bold decisions with the scissors. So, on the mullet front, it's the...

her whole look when she went to go see Gia, she's got the mullet, she's got a fur, a dramatic fur, and then many dramatic furs that she wears. And then she looked in the mirror and she said, okay, I've done the thick black line, my usual, but that's not enough for this scenario. So I've added a double think black,

thick purple liner above the black liner it's it's a look it's incredible um it's giving maternal it is it really is giving i'm definitely not the villain that killed your family like um it's a great look i loved it

It's sensational. Pre-Mullet, I really enjoyed when she... Because it seemed to me like she was going through her mother's closet, right? Is that how... Yeah. So when she drapes herself in the fur and then it's cascading off one shoulder. Yeah. Yeah, and the scars are visible as she's launching the Gigante family at the table. That was really great. The Mullet's...

Just astonishing. A series of like negligee-esque tops. Like it's just a lot of spaghetti straps and lace and satin and fur from the absolute shit show style icon that is Sofia Gigante. I loved her. I mean, I'm going to give, I'm staying on Sofia, but I'm going to give the award actually to Francis for the quote you already shared. Like, what are you going to do next? Dye your hair pink? Get an ass tattoo? Yeah.

Who knows? Talk about do we have time for it in the finale? Maybe. I hope. We've already built the tattoo parlor set. It's just sitting there. That's right. Empty ever since Taj RIP, you know? Oh, Taj. I was really worried about Taj when, you know, the fresh ink and they like knock them down into the pavement. I'm like, man, that's going to hurt. It's going to be infected. Didn't matter. It didn't matter at all.

They sealed it all in with a nice sear. We don't have time for any aquaphor. No, nothing. Didn't matter. How's your tattoo feeling? Doing great. I'm absolutely loving it. I love mine too. Yeah. Loving it. Loving it. If anyone's like, what the fuck are you talking about? We got matching tattoos. We did. We put the apple wars onto our bodies forever. You can see our photos on Instagram. I love mine. I love yours. I love mine as well. I can't show it right now because I have a sweatshirt on, but yeah, it's doing great. It looks great. I love it. I'm ready for another. Okay.

Let me know. We'll go back. Oh man. Okay. We did it. Anything else on the penguin episodes, five, six, and seven. Anything else on the finale to come? Yes. We'll be back in mere days for more penguin. I'm really excited for that. Uh,

I just want to say, as ever, Mallory Rubin, I enjoy these episodes so much more after having talked to you about them. I love doing this podcast with you, and I love... I kind of wish schedule had permitted for us to do this as like a week-to-week watch. Me too. I think I would have enjoyed everything a lot more if I had gotten to talk to you about it every week, but I'm really excited to dig into the finale with you. We may or may not have a special guest for that episode. We're going to see if that pans out. Is it Johnny Vidi? Probably.

From the grave? Yeah, Michael Kelly. Michael Kelly. Tell us what it means to be a made man and then just like gone the next second. Oh, wonderful stuff. All right. We did it. We did. We deserve a happy life, don't we? Just like Frances. You can dance while you think about it, but that's a wrap. That's a wrap on today's pod. Thank you to our family, Steve Allman, for producing this episode. Arjuna Ramgopal for his additional production supervision. Jomia Daneron.

for his work on the social and on the video front today, Stefano Sanchez. Legend. John Richter. Award-winning. That's right. The award-winning John Richter. Congratulations to John for his Signal Awards win for Transmissions from Colony One. We're so proud. Most innovative audio experience. John, you did it. We're thrilled. Yeah. So cool. And today...

Additional video assistance from Alea. Oh, hey, Alea. Yeah. We're honored. Thrilled. All right. We will see everybody at the end of the week for a podcast about something. About stuff that we're excited to talk about. And at the top of next week for the Penguin finale. Until then, Jesus, Sophia and Lane.