The 'Doctor Who' Rewatch (Part 5): The Twelfth Doctor
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I'm saving us actual minutes.

Yeah, okay, whatever. Also, it's his real name. It's what? Hello to House of R, or House of Who, if you prefer. I'm Joanna Robinson. Join me today. Don't call her a companion. Don't call her my plus one. Don't call her comic relief or exposition. She is the one, the only, Mallory Rubin. Hi, Mallory. How are you doing? Jo, never be cruel.

Never be cowardly. And never, ever eat pears. Eat pears! We'll never know where the 12th Doctor falls on the Apple Wars. We just know that he's anti-pear. Prominent role for red apples. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Granted, used as detonation devices, but even so. And I would just like to say, I love pears. Pears are delicious. Wonderful. A poached pear. Oh, no. Spiced pear.

Pear sorbet. Oh, yeah. Ooh, that's good. Or just like fresh. Give it to me raw. Wrinkly. All right. We are here to talk about Doctor Who.

This is our Peter Capaldi 12th Doctor episode. Originally in our plan for this Doctor Who rewatch in advance of the 60th anniversary specials is we were going to try to sort of jam the Capaldi and Whitaker runs into one episode of coverage. And the Capaldi folks made their displeasure known by

So there is a loud and passionate fan base for Peter Capaldi. And then the Whitaker fans weighed in as well. And so we are doing standalone episodes for Peter Capaldi, standalone episodes for Jodie Whitaker. Let me just bring you in on the plan for everything that's going on. Because as of like three days ago, we did not know when the 60th anniversary specials were airing. And had taken to texting each other and our beloved producer, Arjuna,

Not only daily, but like multiple text exchanges per day. Like trying to guess. When will we guess the dates? What clues are there? Neck deep in the Reddit boards trying to see if any like Redditors had leaked anything. Nothing. And then we finally got an announcement. So we finally know. And actually, genuinely, ideal situation for us. Couldn't possibly be better based on like all of our

plans, et cetera. The first Doctor Who 60th anniversary special is airing November 25th. That's a Saturday. We will be covering that episode on Monday, November 27th. And then going forward for the next three weeks, Monday is going to be Who Day for us on House of R. Because there are three anniversary specials, December 2nd and December 9th are the next two. We will be covering those on the following Mondays, December 4th, December 11th. So three weeks of

of who mania and whomst among us uh wouldn't want that so we're thrilled for that and that means we have some time between now and a month from now to check in on the Whitaker era it is our plan to do that mid-November who plans shift all the time it's a timey-wimey show yeah

And our plans to binge three seasons of television sometimes, you know, push these things around. But that is our plan is to get to Whitaker mid-November sometime so that we will be fully ready for the 60th anniversary. We can do it. Wrap the rewatch pre-holiday. Come out of the holiday with the specials. Keep it going. I know we can. Woo!

I'm just like, this is astounding that we're almost here because we've been doing this for all year. So here we are. It really started to hit me wrapping the Capaldi run. Really started to hit me like how much...

We have now watched together how much I have now seen for the first time, but also how near we are till the end. You know, nothing's sad till it's over. Then everything is, as the doctor would say. I'm not strumming a guitar as I share those pearls, but you know how it hits me when something's about to end, Jo?

I'm getting there. The road goes ever on with Doctor Who is the point. And that's the joy. That's the joy. And I'm already like really looking forward to rewatching some of what I've already only now just barely finished consuming for the first time. But that's the beauty of falling in love. Oh, I love that. We had a really good time with Capaldi. We're going to talk about the highs and the lows and all of that. But like overall, we came out very high on Capaldi himself as the Doctor. And that's what really matters, I think, at the end of the day.

Before we get into all of that, quick programming reminders, social reminders, et cetera, et cetera, right? Okay. Over the ringerverse. We are, speaking of timey-wimey, in the very midst of Loki season. So the Loki episode four reaction is already up for you. Jess will have a splash page Loki situation, I think, coming up on Saturday, right? I believe that that is the case.

Button Mash next week is doing Alan Wake 2. I have no idea what that is. And Five Night at Freddy's, which I do know what that is. So that is what Button Mash is up to. We will also be doing our live show at the Terragram Ballroom. That is sold out. We have tickets. We will see you there. And then next week is also Invincible.

coverage from both the Midnight Boys and House of R. So Invincible Season 2 Episode 1 is dropping next week. So along with, of course, more Loki coverage, etc., etc. So there's a lot going on. All right. How can people make sure they keep on top of that? Most crucially, Alan Wake 2, which I have heard is better than Alec. I don't know what Alan Wake is. I'm excited to learn. It's going to be a classic button mash episode where Jess is in her element of

And Ben is hiding under a blanket, quivering in terror. So that's one of my favorite dynamics on the show. Check it out. And if you haven't caught up on the Button Mash episodes on Spidey 2 and Mario Wonder, they are there for you. It has been an active stretch in the gaming sphere. How can you follow that? How can you follow everything else that Joe just ran through? I'd suggest following the pods. Follow this podcast that you're listening to right now, House of R.

our new feed. We're here twice a week. Give us those five stars. Please give us those five stars. We love them. Follow along on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the Ringerverse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Also, follow the Ringerverse on the social media platform of your choosing. The Ringerverse is on Instagram. The Ringerverse is on TikTok. The Ringerverse is on Twitter.

We're there. And if you have thoughts, if you have thoughts on Doctor Who, if you have thoughts on pears, pear sorbet or otherwise, if you have thoughts on anything else, send us your emails at hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. Sublime. Genuinely. Sublime! Great stuff. All right. Speaking of great stuff, let's get into the good stuff with our Doctor Who Overlook.

I love that sound cue. It's so mellow. Carlos on the soundboard today. Just crushing it. I sent him like 12 Doctor Who clips this morning and he's just like, yeah, I got it. Don't worry. I'm a pro. I'll play them all for you. Pros pro. Carlos.

All right. So we are going to do what we usually do, which is just ask some of the big, broad questions about doctors and companions and showrunners before we get into sort of like our mini episode, not deep dive, shallow dives, little splishy splashes into the ponds of these- Soar and buy in our TARDIS. Episodes that we like. No, now I'm scared of splashing into ponds and puddles after some of the plot points and the-

And also Amy Ponce. Heather might be there. That's right. Of course. But Heather is a benign figure, as we know, at the end of the day here. A lot of jump scares until that clarity, though. Yeah, it's an upsetting character design. And then you're like, oh, she just wants... Just wants love. Friendship. Okay, quick check in on the Moffat era.

So now you have seen two different actors play the doctor under Russell T. Davies and two different actors play the doctor under Stephen Moffat. And I think that it's really informative to see a showrunner over multiple actors because then you get an even better sense of like what it is that the showrunner themselves are bringing to the table. So do you have a better sense at this point of like the shape of what Moffat is interested in when he's telling a Who story?

I was thinking about a lot of what we discussed on this front during the last pod when we were talking about Matt Smith and Eleven and Amy and Rory and, you know, a little bit of Clara that we mostly put a pin in in

her until this pod, because this is her, the larger stretch of her run. And, you know, there were so many things in those Matt Smith seasons that I loved and that felt like directly ported from Moffitt's essence. And, you know, as we discussed last time, you're kind of in a push pull, like,

police system war inside of episodes or arcs or seasons or an entire doctor's run with how compelling that can be and then how you can sometimes feel like you're getting lost in the ever-expanding mythology. And I thought that felt more carefully calibrated in the Capaldi run. You speak quite brilliantly about

not just about Who, but about other stories. You talk about this with the MCU, about how the most lasting and successful franchises can adjust on the fly to things that are not working. And you're such a Who scholar. I'm curious to learn more from you about this and if that felt like something that was maybe actively at play here. I will say as context for that, though, that I thought the

the first season of the Capaldi run, midway through, I started to get into it. It was the hardest acclimation I've had yet to a new run and to a new doctor. But spoiler, by the end and well before the end, I was just absolutely smitten and like utterly captivated by Capaldi as 12. And by Bill, I can't wait to talk about Bill with you. I know Bill is a favorite of yours.

And Capaldi gripped me in a way that I was not anticipating. And a lot of that is a credit to Capaldi and the performance as 12 and the way that it evolved over time in some surprising ways, but ways that ultimately I think were to the benefit of the character and the series. And...

It's interesting to think about how that aligns with maybe Moffat figuring out how to use his muses, how to deploy them inside of the story he wants to tell. Moffat, I think, when you think about various showrunners or filmmakers, some seem like they're quite reactive, like I would say, in terms of franchises. We talk about the MCU being like...

flexible but not necessarily reactive to criticism. Whereas Lucasfilm is highly reactive to criticism. And I would say I think Stephen Moffat is... Somehow Palpatine returned? Somehow. I think Stephen Moffat is highly reactive to criticism. And there was...

Such an interesting thing going on in the Who fandom right around this time, to my memory, which is outright hostility towards Stephen Moffat as part of everything that was in the mix. It was a really interesting time. I was frustrated with him personally, but as we'll get into a little bit later, there was this huge... Capaldi came in under...

Slightly unfair circumstances because there had just been this like building conversation of like, all right, we've had all these like charming, wonderful white men playing the doctor. Like, can we get a woman? Can we get a person of color? Like what's going on? If a time ward can look like anything, why can't it look like someone who's not a white guy? Stephen Moffat, as we'll talk about a little bit later,

didn't always have like the greatest responses to that question. And I remember I was there, you know, remember we've talked about like watching blocks of ice melt for Thrones announces. They did like a live feed for the Peter Capaldi announcement. And it was this like big thing on BBC and they were like, here, no, here they are like the doctor for a new generation. And just like a section of the fandom had just like whipped themselves up into like

absolutely believing that this was going to be either a woman or a person of color. And then Peter Capaldi, bless and love and adore him, shows up and he's not only a white man, he is like an older white man. And everyone's just like, what? A white man? You know, so it's just like, again,

That's not exactly how I felt. My issues with Moffat had more to do with some of that mythology balancing we were talking about. But I remember that being like, at least in the corner of the internet that I frequented, like a big question mark that people had. But I think more to your point,

I had some frustrations with the first two Capaldi seasons. And at that point I was covering Dr. Who on a regular basis for Vanity Fair, like towards the, I think in the, in the last two seasons, um, when I had not, I had never been like professionally covering Dr. Who before I had just been watching for fun. So there's like a, a flip that switches when you're covering on a weekly basis for work versus just enjoying something as a fan. And, um,

I remember being so frustrated and then getting to that third Capaldi season with Bill. And I was just like, oh, this is what it should have always been, man. But I do like that the Capaldi run in the quality run Moffitt breaks free from like

Some of that really tortured mystery box stuff, right? There are certainly some season-long teases with, like, Missy. Like, who is Missy? Yeah, the hybrid. What is this heaven situation? The hybrid, et cetera. But I think, more importantly, and we'll talk about this as we consider, like, the way the companions are used in this, Moffat seems to really want to drill down on...

Stop us if you've heard us say this around Loki. What makes the doctor the doctor? Yes. What makes a Loki a Loki? Through a complicated series of mirroring is what we get over these three seasons, which I think is really interesting.

But we're also in a time of like a ratings freefall, like an absolute plummet over the course of Capaldi's run. Like season eight, his first season is like a little lower than the Matt Smith seasons, but like relatively on par. And then you get a huge drop in season nine. And then the lowest season,

Who had been in the new Who era in Capaldi's last season, which is too bad because that's the best season. And then it bumps up again a little bit when Whitaker hops on and then drops, plummets again for Whitaker. So, like, you know, this is an interesting... Yeah, it's just a complicated time for the Who fandom. Yeah, that's fascinating to me. Season 8, while, as I said, it took me a while to get into, and I think it took...

Capaldi and Moffat a little while to find exactly who the doctor that they were bringing to us was. There were, I thought that season was even by the standards of a who season, like really uneven, but there were, there were definitely episodes. I liked like the Robin. I really loved my time with that Robin hood and robot of Sherwood, but even more so like that next episode, listen, um,

I thought it was great. And so it's not like there were no high points in that first season, but there were a lot of less successful single episodes and installments. I will say, though, that while...

I think season 10 on balance in part because Bill is so compelling. And I think it is the most even season. There are just fewer like extreme dips in season 10. And I think Capaldi is operating at such a high level of being the doctor that he was trying to be at that point.

And the dynamic with Bill is so wonderful. And it gives us this really like bright and vibrant and like inquisitive relationship with a companion, even just something like Dr. What instead of Dr. Who you're like, this is going to be a little bit different. So I thought that whole season was great, but I would just say, I really actually liked season nine quite a bit, even though there were low points. I think I liked structurally that there were almost exclusively, not actually exclusively, but almost,

almost exclusively multi-episode arcs. It felt... I think that sometimes, like, you can feel so jarred, like, in the adventure of the week, pulling in and out of a new character or a new concept. And so I liked getting to, like, settle into an idea a little bit more in that season. I think, though, the main thing for me is, like...

Not only was that when I really started to feel gripped by Capaldi, you know, you've got your like, I texted you, it's giving Bob Dylan, like we're in our rock era, you know, which I just loved. Like literally the playing of the guitar, but that kind of like punk rock aesthetic. This is one of my favorite, it has one of my favorite overall episodes, which we'll talk about more later, Heaven Sent, but one of my favorite three episode runs. Like Heaven Sent, Hell Bent, and The Husbands of River Song. I was just like,

oh my God, this is unbelievable. And you remember that I was like, I was so excited for you when you reached that part in your watch. Cause like, you know, whatever struggles we were having with like, you know, the lows of those first two Cabaldi seasons, I was like, once you hit Haven Sent, Hell Bent, Huss's River Song, like then we're just like cooking with gas through the end. So good. So riveting. So, I mean, let's talk about 12 a little bit more because there's, there's, you know, for people who love 12 and who love these runs of seasons, um,

They consider the vast difference between the 12 we meet in deep breath to the 12 that we say goodbye to at the end as, say with me, a character on an arc. And we love a character on an arc. We sure do. But I think, and part of this is, and we'll talk about this a little bit more later, but like,

Moffat was never intending to do a third season. So the third season was something that just sort of like happened. And we'll talk about some of that factors, you know, so like Bill was always, always going to be a one season art companion and all this sort of stuff like that, because the third season was just sort of like, well, we're waiting for a new show runner. So let's just go ahead and do one more season. So then it doesn't feel, TV doesn't have to be planned all the way out in order to be good. But to my point,

I don't know, barometer of character. It does not feel to me like a clean arc between the doctor, the angry sneering doctor that we meet when we first meet Capaldi's doctor to the kindly professor and the person who's like mission statement is you got to be kind, you know, to misquote Kurt Vonnegut. Like that doesn't feel like a considered arc to me.

But again, understand that the arguments that people make that it is an arc. So we'll talk through some of it, right? When we meet him, what I do like about this concept is like when we meet 12 after having spent time with David Tennant and Matt Smith, we meet a doctor who's full of like rage and trauma and egomania without the cute young face and smile to cover it up.

And I do think that's interesting. And I do think that's something that's really interesting about his first episode. It doesn't make a ton of sense to me that Clara would have so much trouble accepting him, given that we saw her run through time and interact with every single doctor ever. That was like part of her whole impossible girl thing. Yeah. Yeah.

But thematically, it is interesting when Madame Bostra is like, I wear a veil as he wears a face to be accepted. And his heartbreak over Clara not accepting it at first, right? He says, you can't see me, can you? You can't see me. Right? Conceptually, I like it, even if it doesn't quite make sense for Clara. But the age part is really interesting. And we got this email from Joel. It was from Joel. Who says...

About Capaldi. I recall the general feeling toward him in that peak Tumblr period of 2013-2014 was a very ageist fervor against the idea of an older man playing the doctor.

Doctor Who's popularity had been propelled for nearly a decade by the sexy Doctor duo of 10 and 11. People were not happy. This is frankly absurd, not only because the Doctor has been played by older gentlemen before, but because Capaldi is a gray-haired fox if I ever saw one. Also, Clara in 12 definitely had this Sam and Diane unspoken thing going on to nick a Peter Quillism. So the Doctor grappling with

not getting the benefit of the doubt that the charm of his youth might bring for him the same way that like we discussed when we talked about, you know, Amy Pond, like older Amy Pond versus younger Amy Pond. I think that's interesting. And I understand why,

When Stephen Moffat's like, I'm going to get Peter Capaldi, and Peter Capaldi's going to be the doctor. I understand why his first instinct was, I'm going to make him as sodiumly salty as possible and flinging insults, because Peter Capaldi's most famous role before he played the doctor was Malcolm Tucker.

who we thrill to watch insult people. So when he shows up in deep breath and he is just insulting everyone, you're like, okay, I understand that this is maybe something you think you want to do with Peter Capaldi. But to me watching it, I'm like,

Is this the doctor? I don't know, Mallory, what was your experience right off the bat there? So I'll start by saying that I'm, there couldn't be a person less inclined to agree with the camp who thought the doctor's like too old to be hot. I mean, Joe, as you know. I know.

Middle-aged Brit. That's a fastball down the middle for me. That's the sweet spot. Literally my favorite. And I, as we went and, you know, as the, the wardrobe was evolving and the hair, the hair was evolving. And I think particularly the nature of his confidence was evolving. Like to your point,

like acid-dipped quill and more vulnerability, but always still in command. And I'm the smartest, but let me make sure you understand how smart you are too. I just kept texting you.

how much of a crush I had and how utterly captivating I found him. So it is not a headspace that I can put myself into in terms of that aspect of it. But I understand, I guess, how some people might feel that way. More generally, yeah, I think the point that you're making about that initial...

the prominence of the Venom, it was certainly notable. Like he just becomes a lot more

as we go. I mean, the Doctor's always a complicated figure, and I thought that 12 and the characters who are around 12 do a good job across his episodes, and especially in seasons 9 and 10, like, interrogating why he behaves the way he behaves, right? And some of the best moments to your what makes a Doctor a Doctor, what makes a Loki a Loki point earlier come...

With Missy, I think for this reason, you know, these questions of like, what can I see in myself by looking at you or when he's with another version of literally himself and Christmas special, etc. Like a number of different examples. I think that there were always moments, there's always like a blend with the Doctor, right? And I think that even just one watch through without having yet had the pleasure of revisiting certain episodes, which I think will be, this is actually one of the reasons I'm most excited.

excited to revisit seasons already, even though I haven't finished my first watch yet, is because I do feel...

that there's always a little bit of a blend of like that pepper and that sugar and how it's calibrated and how it's presented to us and what aspect of that the doctor in a given moment is trying to channel or trying to suppress is like specifically like the secret sauce. And when that's actually then like incorporated into the text and it's something the character is thinking about, something maybe the companion is helping him work through.

that can be so compelling to watch. So I think like one of the things that really is off balance in the first season, I'll just like kind of quickly hit this here because I think it's something you want to talk about later in more depth, is that

12 and Clara in the first season are highlighting this in each other in the worst way. You know, even just like, and it's not like I'm like, oh my God, my gentle ears are wounded by this. I just thought it was odd. Like even the number of times that I know there's just kind of like casual, like quirky moments

British aspect to this, but even just the number of times they just like tell each other to shut up or do as you're told. It's like, it, it just wasn't working for me. And then as we kind of shed that and take the elements that were always there, because there are moments early where he's trying to provide comfort and support. And like one of the, it's the fourth episode of his first season is with, with little Rupert, with little Danny Pink, um,

what's wrong with scared? Scared is a superpower. Like, that's like one of the tenderest and most encouraging and empowering things we've heard from a doctor. I loved that line and loved that moment. So it's not like those elements weren't there. I think it was just the calibration. Yeah, I think the Clara doctor toxicity, which then becomes like in its second season, like,

The show seems to be like, yeah, that's the point. I'm like, is that always the point? I don't know. I can't tell you. But let's talk about a textual reason why this doctor might at least initially have read as more bitter than

more misanthropic than the doctors we've had before. The doctors we've had before, something that marks them, I mean, it swings back and forth to a certain degree, but almost always when they're introduced, they're introduced as like Earth defenders, lovers of Earth. It is defended, right? And what we get in

Capaldi's first episode is him saying, no, no, shut up. What do you all have brains for brains pudding? Look at you. Why can't I meet a decent species planet of the pudding brains? And like, that's funny and fun and a G-rated version of Malcolm Tucker, but it's not like, I love humanity, which is something that like we got a lot from the other doctors, but a reminder that

The doctor's only supposed to have a certain number of regenerations, 11. And so it was this whole, like, I remember leading up, everyone was like, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? The doctor's only supposed to have this many regenerations. What are you going to do? And then they're like, you know, Moffat and company are like, oh, timey-wimey, wave your hand. Who cares? We'll do what we want. It's our own show. But if you carry on that idea of like, this is a doctor...

aged beyond the doctor is supposed to age. That's kind of interesting. So we got this email from a listener, Zip. By the way, I love that we have a listener named Zip. Love that. Zip wrote...

12 started as a bold swerve, a doctor whose bitterness towards humanity was brought to the fore, a true misanthropic streak, and a tired god who must now be dragged kicking and screaming into saving this planet of shaved apes for the 10,000th time, alive in an incarnation beyond the point when every other Time Lord gets to enjoy an eternal rest.

By the end of the run, however, 12 has become the graceful old rock star, all long hair and cool shades and cherry red Gibson, grateful to have lived a life so interesting as to own some hard-earned regrets, once again in full command of their love for the human race and ready to become something beautiful again. So yeah, if done intentionally, that's a great story. I just am not confident that that was the plan and it doesn't feel like the plan and so...

The parts where it's a doctor we have trouble recognizing, like Clara, it's not the gray hair. It's not, you know, it's not the years on the face or whatever. It's the personality that is the hardest for us to contend with. And when you swing from that,

putting brains or him like threatening a shield here. We're going to talk about Maisie Williams in season nine for sure to this big speech he gives right at the end to the master and Missy. Carlos, can we hear this? I do what I do because it's right, because it's decent. And above all, it's kind. It's just that. Just kind. If I run away today, good people will die.

If I stand and fight, some of them might live. Maybe not many, maybe not for long. Hey, you know, maybe there's no point in any of this at all, but it's the best I can do. So I'm going to do it. And I will stand here doing it till it kills me. You're going to die too someday. How would that be if you thought about it? I, P.S. They died that day. I love this speech, but it is hard to reconcile.

That doctor. And again, if you, if you, if you like it and it works for you, then it's just a character on a, on a real broad arc. Um, and if you don't, then it just feels like to your point earlier, oh, they finally figure it out. Uh, a personality that fits the actor and the role, uh, together, you know?

in that final season. I think like episode to episode, minute to minute, either in real time or the first time through the episodes, that is, that you feel that more keenly and then like, I think in part just sort of a very like right now reality as we do these episodes, I think because we're watching, you know, 40-some, depending on the particular doctor, in a couple weeks for each of these, the things that like

move and burble to the fore feel like the most essential moments in a character arc. And it doesn't mean that they were consistently parceled out to us or evenly balanced, but now when I think back, I'll do so and be able to say...

Okay, well, at the end of the first season, there's, yes, a lot of everything that you just rightly sketched out, and we still build toward a moment like pain is a gift when he's talking to Cyber Danny, or one of my favorite moments in the first season is

the never trust a hug. It's just a way to hide your face and the tears that we see in 12's eyes over Clara's shoulders. And like that, not just that he's feeling that, but that he doesn't feel like he can show her that. And what does that tell us about him? And then we move into, you know, we're, we're, we're evolving in, in fits and starts and in bursts. I think for me, the spot where it really felt like it started to happen more

meaningfully. Like, what is the arc for this doctor? And what is unlocking that? Is with Argal. Macy is with Arya. Because even though the Ashildur slash me character, a girl has no name, just me, those episodes, I think the quality varies and the use of the character varies. I think what works is how these conversations about Arya

immortality and responsibility and connection and memory. Like these feel like essential aspects to getting 12 to think about the way that the decisions he makes impact other people because they have concretely in a real way impacted this person in front of him who can then engage in these discussions with him. So that was like,

And that's also the episode where he realizes why he has this face, right? And the power of saving someone. So that was when it started to really click for me, that episode five and six run of season nine. As a concept, a shielder, for those reasons, is intriguing to me. In execution, it doesn't really work for me. With love and respect,

of down to Maisie's performance of it, I think. I don't think she's the right actress for it, even though I, you know, obviously think she's incredible as Arya. So I want to get to that

Who frowned me this face speech because it's a peak moment who moment for me of all time. Before we get there, though, do you want to take a moment to talk about season nine Midlife Crisis Doctor when we get the fun pants, the guitar, the sonic sunglasses? What do you do? You have anything you want to say about this? I'm still recovering from the moment that the guitar strumming doctor died.

hears and sees Clara on Missy for the first time and starts strumming Pretty Woman. Just iconic. Genuinely. Capaldi, like, really... He's a musician and you can tell, like, it's really good. And I loved almost every moment where he got to play guitar. I thought that was really cool. I actually wish they'd done it more.

Here's my thing on the sunglasses. And I appreciate you giving me a moment to share this with... I was going to say you, but I've already shared this with you. I sent you a number of text messages about this. I love the sunglasses. They look great. They're cool. He's trying a new thing. It's like, sure, the doctor's more than 2,000 years old, but he's just like any of us, you know? We're always in the midst of some aspect of coming of age and self-discovery and exploration. I rock with it. However...

It is a crime. It is a crime and an abomination. An abomination, wow. To give us a stretch of the story, and they rectified it in time, thank the gods. A stretch of time in the story where we had sonic sunglasses instead of a sonic screwdriver. Because as was later borne out in the show, it's...

Nothing about having a sonic screwdriver prevents him from wearing sonic shades. And also he could just wear sunglasses and look cool and rock them, which he did. But to not have a sonic screwdriver and have sonic sunglasses instead for like multiple episodes was...

Joanna, what was the outrage level at the time? Were people really mad about Sonic Sunglasses? I was like, I don't remember. I was like, was this a scandal? Was this an absolute outrage scandal, Sonic Sunglasses? That was how it felt to me. Not to my recollection, but...

And I will say at least, and when you were texting me about this, to be fair, you hadn't gotten to these episodes yet, but at least there's some payoff for it in season 10 when he has this direction where he can't see and the sonic sunglasses are helping him with that. But that clearly was not the intention when they first arrived on the scene the season prior. So anyway, let's talk about the season nine duty of care revelation that you alluded to. Carlos, can we hear the who frowned me this face speech, please? Who frowned me this face?

Why this one? Why did I choose this face? Doctor, what's wrong with your face? It's like I'm trying to tell myself something. I think I know what I'm trying to say. Just someone. Not the whole town. Just save someone. Come with me. I know what I got this face and I know what it's for. Okay, what's it for? To remind me. To hold me to the mark.

Did I find a way to get Donna Noble into a podcast where Donna Noble doesn't appear?

Yes, I did. Really? So I did look at the impact that Donna is having still on the doctor and on us. I'm so glad you said it that way, because that leads me right into this email from our listener, Madeline, another, another Donna fan who says it's never been made completely clear how the doctor chooses their faces when they regenerate. However, it's implied that the doctor subconscious plays a role.

We eventually learned that in the Capaldi seasons, the reason why the 12th Doctor chose this specific face, which is the face of Cassilius from Pompeii, whose family the Doctor and Donna saved way back in season four. He chose that face as a reminder that he must always try to save people, even when the situation is bleak. He's not the Doctor because he always succeeds. He's not the Doctor. He's the Doctor because he never gives up.

Donna didn't just make a man out of him, she made a doctor out of him, and the 12th doctor's face is a constant and beautiful reminder of that fact. Now, is this plot point an excuse to explain why a prominent guest character from a previous season is played by the same actor who would go on to be the doctor? Oh, absolutely. But that doesn't make it any less true or resonant for the story.

And then Madeline goes on to make a connection about why David Tennant, his face is showing back up again in someone that Russell T. Davies, in the anniversary special, David Tennant is showing up and Russell T. Davies is very clear that this is the 14th Doctor. This is not the 10th Doctor return. This is the 14th Doctor. So Madeline writes, we don't know why the Doctor has averted to an old face, Tennant, in the upcoming anniversary specials.

But I'm willing to bet it has something to do with Donna and their unfinished business. If there's anyone that can help the Doctor understand himself and help him become the spaceman he's meant to be, it's Donna. In the season four finale, two-parter, The Stolen Earth slash Journey's End, Dalek Khan refers to Donna as the most faithful companion of the Doctor. It's possible that by the time of the 60th anniversary specials, she will have impacted not one, but two of the Doctor's regenerations. The most faithful companion indeed. Donna!

That's the best. What a great email. How did you feel about this moment, this speech for 12, this revelation, this idea of like, I chose this face because this was a moment I saved. Save somebody, Donna says. I thought it was perfection. Yeah, I agree. I just absolutely could not have loved it more. And...

It was a really good example, too, of a promise paying off because like you included that in the clip. That's it is included in the clip, these flashes and these recollections in real time. But, you know, it's nice to get to hear it there in the clip because like in the first episode, shout out that dinosaur. What a time that was. Deep breath. The.

real-time reckoning. You know, that who frowned me this face, like 12 trying to figure out why. It's like a promise to us, to the audience, that we will get that answer. And so not only two people

receive it, but for it to be such a meaningful one. And it made me think of one of the questions you asked at the very beginning of our beautiful journey here. Is this a mantle or a character? How are those two things entwined with each other? And this is such a central elemental reminder of how it's both. How each version of the Doctor is...

and distinct and on a journey, an arc that is specific to them and they have their own companions and their own adventures, but how they are, it's a long journey. It's a long arc. It's a connection, right? And like those experiences don't seem

cease to matter. And I think especially the Moffat run has really... I mean, all of it, but the idea of memory has been so prominent that I really like accounting for that, not just in the way that it haunts you and the way that that trauma informs you, but the way that you can still find inspiration and understanding in these key moments from your past, even if it was a different version of you. And I think especially because that... I loved that scene overall.

all in that episode in in the girl who died because before we get this light bulb moment this revelation which we just heard we're in a state of absolute despair

because his shoulder has died. We get that I'm sick of losing people moment. And he turns to Clara and he says, look at you with your eyes. You're never giving up to anger and your kindness. One day, the memory of that will hurt so much that I won't be able to breathe. And I'll do what I always do. I'll get in my box and I'll run and I'll run in case all the pain ever catches up. And every place I do it will be there. And so I think this is like a perfect scene inside of this

run with 12, but really a perfect Doctor Who scene because like, not only does it give us this beautiful connection to Donna and this clarity and this insight and this understanding and pay off a promise from the past, it sets up a promise for the future. It's like so central to what we get in Heaven Sent and Hell Bent with... And that's like so true to the Doctor. That was one of the first things you kind of primed me for is like,

this isn't always like a good man who does purely good things. And so even this moment of like keen insight and self-reflection, which does help the doctor do something good, it sets him on the path where the things that he does that are good have real consequences, dire ones. Like so much of, okay, he saves a Shildor and that's a beautiful lesson from Donna, save just one person. But the burden of that haunts her and him for the rest of time. And his...

declaration to Clara here that he wouldn't be able to cope with losing her bears delicious pear fruit. Like, he can't handle it. And I think what I love about watching Doctor Who, because the seasons are so short and they've written the seasons out in their entirety before they shoot them, then like, you know, yeah, all these little breadcrumbs are so intentionally laid to set us up for something. So...

The episodes themselves might be uneven in quality, but in terms of like we're walking towards a conclusion, that's true from the beginning. Bad Wolf from the beginning. You know, I want to talk about something that I really dislike about the Capaldi run, which is this concept of president of the world. Doctor Who is president of the world, which pops up a number of times. I hate the idea.

And I, I hate, I like that he kind of rejects it, but then also sometimes he accepts it. And I just like, I don't know. I just, all of those, there's like, I would say two to three episode runs on each season that deal with this like idea of,

a lot having to do with like Kate Lethbridge Stewart, et cetera, whatever. I'm just, I'm not about it at all. How do you, how do you feel about it? Yeah, same. It was, I thought it was very odd. I, the one, one thing I really liked about it was that it gave us the comedy of him saying he wanted to go on the plane again. Cause he likes to pounce about planes, which I found very funny. Other than that, I thought it was, yeah, not only like bizarre, but,

but contrary in a really like keen way, like the human being aspect of it, I guess, tracks that they would seek refuge in this savior, but the, from the doctor's perspective, not so much. And then of course it's so set like Zygon invasion plot, like, okay,

okay, how much are we thinking about those episodes? The shout out as good now and always, but like something like the plot with the monks, which was such an elemental run. Like it's really a lot. You're the president of the world. It's like, wait, it's a three episode arc. What? Yeah. I'm just like, what's happening by the way, this reminds me that I wanted to say to you, um,

Because just talking about Zygon Invasion made me think, of course, of Secret Invasion because the plots are nearly identical. But also, like, Time Heist was, like, shout-out Endgame. There were so many moments. So many moments that connect to other IP. And the Loki stuff was, like, I mean... The Master and Missy. The Master and Missy, of course, most of all, with the variants. But, like...

eat the monk talking about that monk arc is what reminded me of it just now like we're here come into our room with our threads of history and time and then let's set up a discussion between two key figures about wait what happened to believing in free will i was like when bill even though it ended up being a test when bill was shouting at the doctor like what about free will i was like

Fuck yeah. This is exactly what we've been talking about. This is like almost unbelievable how closely this hews to that. That was really fun. Something I really enjoyed in our trying to like nail down the taxonomy of 10 and 11. It was very Stephen Moffat of us to give them like names, right? Well, Moffat himself wrote it into the anniversary special, the one who regrets and the one who forgets 10 and 11. So what is 12?

We got a nomination from one of our listeners, which I really quite like, which is the one who grieves. And something that I think is interesting about that grief for Capaldi is...

The way so many things are hidden from him as the Doctor, this is something that Bethany pointed out. But something we talked about, let me backtrack for a second and say, something that we talked about that Russell T. Davies did that was different from the Doctor Who that came before was he made the companions sort of the driving POV characters of the show. So it's Rose's show almost more than it is the Doctor's show.

Martha, less successfully so. And then Donna, again, more her story necessarily than it is his story. And then I would say that Moffat

flipped and reversed that in the Matt Smith era. It initially seems like it's an Amy Pond story, but then it just like, you know, the ponds leave the TARDIS for stretches. You know what I mean? It just becomes the doctor story, which is fine. Like, you know, that's the same as it ever was. But then it's interesting to me that in the Capaldi era, I wouldn't say it's Clara's story necessarily, or I wouldn't say that it's Bill's story necessarily,

But the doctor, so much of the story is hidden from the doctor and revealed to the audience. And I do find that fascinating. Bethany writes, I'm struck by how the audience has spared so much of what the doctor is not in the grief department. We know that Gallifrey is saved before he does, though it gets timey-wimey. We know Clara gets more adventures and critically retains the memories. We never have to say goodbye to River, but Capaldi's performance leaves no doubt as to what that goodbye was to him. Bill joins the pilot, but the doctor's loss...

And then also, like, the doctor doesn't know that Missy was going to, like, come back and stand with him before she died. There's, like, a lot of things that we see that the doctor doesn't see. That was painful, that last one. Yeah, you know? It hurt, yeah. Yeah, because he, like, works... It was so important to him to know that, and then he doesn't get to know it. So what do you make of that, of, like, us knowing more than the doctors quite often in this run of story? What an interesting...

observation. I guess there's something very strange and unmooring about it because it's not how we expect the reality of a Doctor Who story to function. But I think I kind of like it because, at least sometimes, because I think it's a little bit of an evening of the scales. One of the things that can be

in the opposite direction, whether it's for us as viewers or for a companion or for just someone else, a friend along the way or a foe along the way, is that infallible, all-knowing, larger-than-life and longer-than-time aspect of this mammoth figure. And we have many moments, including some very sad ones in this season, that really...

really zero in on that idea. You know, Sunset can't love you back. It's like he's just a thing you can't wrap your arms around. And so does it always feel fair inside of a story if that's true? Maybe not. Does it always feel like

how it should go, maybe not, but there's something, it almost like spreads the power. It almost like democratizes the, the tail a little bit. So I didn't find myself like minding it though. It is painful in certain spots. Yeah. The, the, the, the Missy point at the end was like, so, so gut wrenching. I found their scenes together. Incredible. So I was just like, I wish he knew that she made that choice. I can't wait to talk about the legend, Michelle Gomez, but, um,

I think especially in that the way that... I mean, we're going to talk about... Obviously, we're going to talk about Hellbent and Heaven Sent when we get to our little mini deep dives into episodes. But the way that that episode plays with our expectation of the Doctor as all-knowing and patronizing and flips it on its head in the revelation that it's Clara who's pretending and patronizing to him...

patronizing is a negative way to look at it. You know, it is sort of like holding him in this space of not remembering. Let me take your hand and comfort you because you're lost. Yeah. It's so sweet. But we think we know what story we're watching because we're so used to the doctor knowing, you know? And so it's really fun. That one really flips our expectations on their head in an incredibly satisfying way. I just love that episode. Love.

So the one who greases is one good, you know, taxonomy. Another, this is mine, is the one who explains. Because what I really love is that... Explain. Explain. Because they make, even before they literally make him a professor in his final season, which again, they were never planning to do that season. So it was never like, aha. It was just sort of like, you know what he's really good at? Lectures. Because there's a number of...

And Smith, I think, did this a couple times, but no one has done it as much as Capaldi, which is walk around the TARDIS and talk directly to the camera and literally use a chalkboard to talk to us about certain concepts and stuff like that. So the most sort of overt version of that, and we get it in...

Some other episodes, but the description of the bootstrap paradox in Before the Flood, an episode I actually quite like, part of a two-parter I actually quite like. But the bootstrap paradox via Beethoven explanation is just like really fun and funny. Or in Deep Breath, the first episode, he sits down and does a ship of Theseus conversation with our villain when talking about you are a broom. You replace...

the handle, you replace the bristles. At what point are you still the same broom? I'm like, oh, somewhere vision. Yeah, exactly. This is my corner, but it wasn't. The doctor was here first. I don't have any large grandiose point to make about that. I just kind of love that they like had him give a number of those little like lectures and then they made him a lecturer. And I was like, I'm, and what I love about them making him a lecturer is that he's a lecturer and like

with the most popular class. Like, of course, the students love him. Like, love going to his lectures. This is what I was going to cite, too, because I think there's a version of this. I also love this aspect of this doctor and this performer. I was struck... I mean, every doctor gives us a number of really just incredibly compelling and memorable speeches. The doctor loves to give a speech. But I think...

Capaldi has to have the highest tally. And some of them are the deeply emotional and poignant speeches about kindness or any other insight into human nature. But a lot of them are just about, to your point here,

understanding something. And I think there's a way that that could actually be really alienating where it's like, God, what a preachy asshole who always thinks he knows better than everyone around him because he does and is constantly compelled to remind us that he understands the thing we don't. I think that could be off-putting, but it's not. It's like so...

magnetic because it's magnanimous. He wants to help. And I think that aspect of the students and seeing that he's this rockstar legend who everybody can't wait to sign up to be in his class or audit his class, or even if you're serving chips and you're not enrolled as a student at all, you show up because you just have to, because you can't wait to...

witness this display. And like, it's, it's a, it's a really good like shorthand because you would know that you would want to do that too. Right. If you were a student at the school, of course you would go sit in and listen to the doctor and like what a thrill it would be. And Oh my God, imagine if the doctor summoned you to his office and offered to be your personal tutor, as long as you always got a first, like that part was just, it's, it just really, really works. And I think Capaldi knows how to,

knows how to present the one who explains as like a, I'm your partner in understanding. And it's such an interesting thinking about the times in television shows where that has gone wrong. Like, okay. So I think the king of, the historical king of TV monologues

is Aaron Sorkin, right? And so like, and when it goes well, you get the West Wing. And when it's like less effective, you get the newsroom. And that has to do with like, attitude of the one giving the speech, I think, is what I would say between the two main characters giving speeches in those two shows. Or you get something like,

the final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer show that you will watch someday where, which is just groaning under the weight of all the inspirational battle speeches and,

Buffy has to give in that season. And it's famously a frustrating part of that season. Or Mike Flanagan, who I'm currently like, you know, in the middle of spooky season, enjoying my Mike Flanagan time. People have varying opinions about how much they enjoy the classic, like Mike Flanagan monologues. But I just, I think that like, I've never met a Dr. Who speech I didn't love. I think, you know, it doesn't matter who's writing them. They're so good. It's like unbelievable. They're all so good. The hit rate is astonishing. Yeah. It's incredible. Yeah.

All right, let's talk about Clara. Let's get into what we think makes a good companion. And full disclosure,

I will speak for Mallory. Clara is maybe one of my least favorite companions, I'm sad to say. We have someone, one of our listeners will be defending her shortly. Her defense attorney is here in the shape of one of our listeners, but that is my POV. So let's start with this quote from Missy about Clara. She's perfect, isn't she?

Clara Oswald.

Oswin Alden. Aldewald. Claire Oswin Aldewald. The Impossible Girls. Soufflé Girl. She had many names. Titles, titles, titles. You know the damn words. The longest running companion in Who history. Molly Rubin. Tell me your Clara thoughts. I want to hear all of your Clara thoughts. All right. Tell me. It was such a tease. Such a setup. We need to hear all your thoughts. So something that I think could have been potentially positive.

Is that more than any other companion in Who history, she has her own life outside the TARDIS. You know, like Rose leaves her entire life to go off in the TARDIS. So does Donna. So does Martha, right? Like this is, that was what you did in the Russell T. Davies era, right? Oh, you're just with the doctor now. That's what you do.

The pawns did pop in and out, but because we're with the doctor all the time, like we're not really with their, like we just check in and we're like, what, you're divorced now? Amy's a model now? What's happening? We didn't know. Clara, we get all this time, partially because of like the whole Danny Pink setup and stuff like that. We had so much time with Clara as a teacher, Clara and her students, like all that sort of stuff. Like Clara's life outside the TARDIS. And,

And so that should be something that I think is cool. This sort of like, we're not codependent, but it's the opposite. She is the most codependent companion with her doctor. And that double life just leads to more toxicity because she's

As River Song likes to say, the doctor lies. Clara lies. And the doctor lies. And they lie to each other. And it drives me absolutely bananas. I am so frustrated by the toxicity of their relationship. There is that complicated lingering crush dynamic that comes out in the worst version of it. It comes out in the doctor's absolutely disgustingly jealous treatment of Danny Pink, which I hate.

I don't even really care that much about Danny, but I just like hate the way that the doctor hates him. It's just such an unflattering look for the doctor. And that's my, I guess that's my Clara rant before I get to the defense attorneys amongst our listeners. I mean, I don't, I know that you did not enjoy Clara that much either. So what do you, what do you want to say about that? Yeah, it certainly didn't, Clara did not grip me, you know, the way that Rose or,

Donna or even Martha and Amy. Yeah, it did. And it's not like there weren't moments with Clara that I enjoyed. There certainly were. But the overall and, you know, the lingering crush part, again, I think perhaps unsurprisingly, like I don't mind that and that felt

actually kind of like true to life to me that if you had those feelings for somebody, like they wouldn't just vanish and that it would be complicated to work through what that meant for you as like your relationship evolved, but also literally as that person evolved in front of you. Um, and I, I've, it's, it's, it, I think part of why I will say, I really agree with you on the, um, the Danny point. I felt like the way that he called him P E I also was not

particularly taken with Danny as a character. No, me neither. But I'm like, don't make me defend Danny Pink. Like, that's how I felt where I was just like... Yeah, it was just like, this is like, this is just like not a... This is not behavior to recommend to you. This is just very, very, very off. I think the part of why I loved Heaven Sent and Hell Bent so much, not only because...

Conceptually, I thought they were brilliant, but it felt like an opportunity to sit inside of and really appreciate what they had meant to each other without the constant...

oh boy, this feels wrong or off or weird or do we understand why a person is behaving this way? It was like, man, this is the impact that Clara had on the doctor was supreme. And we got to linger inside of that in a way that showed why it mattered to him. I connected with his grief and you and I talked about this. I think the send-off for Clara in Hellbent is one of the most beautiful moments

sent us for a companion ever. And I cry when I watch it. I cry when he plays her theme on the guitar. I cry, like I, and it's a miracle because I don't really like that character, but I can connect with the grief that he's feeling. And I think if anything, it's like, it's so powerful and so deeply affecting that it like makes you a little, a little angrier even. Yeah.

about maybe some of the squandered opportunities along the way. One of the moments that struck me as a little bit emblematic of this way earlier was in Dark Water, the 11th episode of season eight, where we get a line that I thought was gorgeous and...

powerful, and cut to the heart of friendship and devotion. Do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference? That's something the doctor says to Clara. Iconic line, yeah. Like, pantheon. I was like, this is just like, there are lines like this every 15 minutes in the show, and it's unbelievable. There's like nothing. I haven't experienced anything like it. I thought that was astonishing. It comes on the heels of...

The TARDIS key melting in lava gambit, the fact that Clara would do that, the fact that the doctor tricked her to teach her a lesson, and then the lecture about all the ways that she did betray him. So I think it's very emblematic of this slightly off brew in the cauldron of their relationship where you have the potential for something astonishing, and we got it. But it's surrounded by something...

bubbling in the mix that feels like it might splash over and burn you. I'm going to bring in the defense attorneys from our listeners. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one of them makes a comp that I think is really impactful for helping me explain some of my frustrations. So Julia, defense attorney number one, says, Clara is one of the most hated companions, so I want to defend her a little bit. It's true that she's messy and all over the place in season seven and eight,

Before her, it was a truth universally acknowledged that the Doctor and a companion traveling together is the best way for both. The companion's role is to give the Doctor's perspective to help him see right from wrong. All previous companions do that. So the fact that we're not sure if Clara actually brings out a better side of the Doctor is refreshing. She lies, she blatantly uses him, she's reckless to the point of madness, and she's unapologetic for it.

Those are things that both we and the doctor are not used to and broadens the definition of what a gay companion can be. And I'm here for it. So that's defense number one.

Number two is less of a direct defense attorney thing, but pulled from this larger email from Osner Bailey, who says, we watch him, the doctor, love Clara so much that they start to meld into something toxic. Think Craig Mazin describing The Last of Us. Clara is lost and broken after losing Danny, and the doctor is willing to give her everything to try to fix it without ever truly understanding how to make it better. So that The Last of Us comp

I thought was brilliant from Bailey, eh? But also actually goes back to reinforce my point, which is that I don't get frustrated when I watch Joel and Ellie interact. I am seduced into the connections that they're forming and I enjoy my time with them. And I'm not just like,

chafing under bad decision after bad decision after bad decision. I am watching two broken, lost souls try to find each other. And then, you know, as their tendrils yearn and tangle with each other, it becomes something more, more potentially dangerous, but, um, but I'm not actively frustrated watching it. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's,

That's the difference where, again, conceptually, I don't mind this idea that the doctor and this particular companion create a hybrid that is so toxic and dangerous that the time lawyers have to get involved. You know, like I kind of like that notion.

but I would wish that I had a better time watching them together in order to get there. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. I think those are both great points and great emails from Julia and Bailey and a wonderful encapsulation of those assessments from you. I think that there are plenty of moments where the fact that something about

Clara's relationship to the idea of being a companion or Clara's relationship to the doctor feels different. That is actually, it's like refreshing that not every relationship is the same. And it's, uh, it's important that people make different choices for different reasons, like how they're assessing that with each other. And like,

Again, I think for me, it was just often that the moments, the highs are so high with the two of them. Again, like, just to be clear, it's not that we don't think they're highs. For me, the highs are so high that I'm like, I want to better understand how we got to that depth of feeling. You know, like, I think another moment to stand out, this is actually also in The Girl Who Died, in that initial Schilder introduction episode, when...

I thought this was an amazing scene when they're walking back toward the TARDIS and they're leaving. And Clara asks...

why he gave her two, why he gave her like a second chip that could grant immortality. And he says, immortality isn't living forever. That's not what it feels like. Immortality is everybody else dying. She might meet someone she can't bear to lose. And then there's like a beat and he pauses for a second and he just says, that happens, I believe. And again, it's emblematic because he's obviously talking about Clara and the way that he feels about her and how...

how the nature of that feeling and the fear of that loss then informs the decisions that he makes not only about his own life or about Clara's, but about other people's lives too. And that's like a really potent thing to explore. So there are moments that give us, okay, well, this is like a pretty intense examination of like choice and consequence and the ripple effect in the web that other people get caught in because of the fear that you have about losing and grieving another person, et cetera. So those moments are there. It's like, is the path to them always as, yeah,

evenly paved as it is for some of the companions. I think, I think certainly not. Something that's interesting. And, and like, you know, I mentioned this briefly before, but I think it's interesting, especially building upon that idea of the doctor's face and him looking in various reflective surfaces at his face. So he's like constantly trying to like physically mirror and understand why he's wearing a face that he knows and,

But there's also this idea of him trying to mirror himself through these various people in order to better understand himself. Again, what makes a Loki a Loki? So more than any other doctor before him, even 10, despite winding up with the Dr. Donna very briefly,

This is a doctor who tries to mold his companion in his image actively through sometimes through manipulation. So in episodes, a wildly, widely reviled episode, Kill the Moon. Easily one of my least favorite. Yeah. And then another one that a lot of people don't like, but I do think has its good qualities flatline. These are episodes where Clara has to play the doctor.

And she is so angry about it in Kill the Moon. But this is what's so uneven. She's so angry at the end of Kill the Moon because she feels like she's been manipulated, right? She says, I nearly didn't press that button. I nearly got it wrong. That was you, my friend, making me scared, making me feel like a bloody idiot. And then she leaves the TARDIS. And she's like, fuck you, I'm leaving the TARDIS. And then they're like, one last ride.

for Mummy on the Orient Express, an episode that I love. And then she's just, and then she's just like back at it. It's like, you know, it's addiction, essentially. I'm like, I just wish her like resolved to not be in the TARDIS had lasted literally an episode, which it doesn't. And then his attempt to like turn her into him is ultimately what gets her killed, right? Because when she makes this move, when she takes this number on her neck,

In a move that, yes, I do believe the doctor would do. The doctor says to her, I let you get reckless. And she says, why? Why shouldn't I be so reckless? You're reckless all the bloody time. Why can't I be like you? And he says, Clara, there's nothing special about me. I'm nothing, but I'm less breakable than you. I should have taken care of you. She said, I never asked you to. And he says, you shouldn't have to ask. But that him actively trying to turn her into a mini him

so that he could have a reflection back at him. And the clearer reflection is, of course, Missy, and we'll talk about that in a second, is what means that he loses her. She doesn't die, or she does, depending on how you decide to view it, but he loses her because of that. The thing, I mean, the kill the moon, which we need not linger on for more than another moment, I think that her resentment of him falling

Forcing her to make that choice and the like the real kind of withering indictment of you are presenting basically empowerment when really it's like cowardice and or this like desperate need of your own.

I think that's an interesting concept that was not well executed. And I think because it is so well executed elsewhere, like you mentioned Missy, and I know we'll talk more about this specific moment later, but like one of my, I'll tease that one of my favorite moments in the entire run is him talking about how Missy is the most like him. And then Bill Nardole having to try to read the expression on his face and like interrogate what that means. And then what we can see

about what that means and what his need is there. So, like, that aspect of the doctor making those decisions broadly I think is, like, compelling through line of the character, but the particular nature of how it manifests with... in here is a little off. Because, like, even with Bill and, like, Cyber Bill, you know, there's that same... In theory, there's that parallel of, like, I...

I let this happen. Like, I failed my duty of care. This happened because of me and because you're traveling with me. So again, it's not even the core, like, text or choice. It's just that it is the execution in those episodes. It's a bummer. But there were plenty of good Clara moments, too. You know? Some fun ones. Some fun adventures. She's really fun in that Robin Hood episode. Love that one. The...

The Danny Pink of it all, I think we've already mostly talked about, but I don't want to skip him having his standing up to the doctor moment. So, Carlos, can you play this clip? I'm a soldier guilty as charged. You see him? He's an officer. I am not an officer. I'm the one who carries you out to the fire. He's the one who lights it. Oh, no. Right away, sir. Straight now. Yes. Am I dismissed? Yes, you are. That's him. Look at him right now. That's who he is. I don't know. Just like...

Great stuff from Danny when Danny just gets shit upon left and right by both the doctor and the way that Clara lies to him and treats him and stuff like that. It's just like... And then he dies. I mean... And then Dream Danny has a great moment in the Christmas special. But it's a tough beat for Danny Pink. Good old Danny Pink. And...

It's just, again, reflects so poorly on the doctor, his treatment of Danny. It's just awful. Yeah. Like even building towards like, oh, good on you, P. Like you cracked it. Like maths indeed. I was like, this is...

No, I really wanted to like the Danny Pink character more than I did. I think like Danny seems lovely and bright and devoted and caring. And I think the clip you picked is like a great moment for the Danny Pink character. But.

Everything we've already talked about with the doctor, which is more of a reflection on the doctor than of Danny, certainly. But even the Danny and Clara relationship just didn't work for me because we don't understand why they love each other. We just don't understand. You get to see a couple moments. Obviously, there's the dinner, the initial courtship date, the flubbed sequence. But

Okay, so yeah, they're like cuddling on the couch and watching TV. But like you said, with the lies and the nature of the lies and the repetition of the lies, I'm like, why would these people be together exactly? And even I will say like it pays off nicely in the moments like in the clip you highlighted where Danny challenges Clara to see something clearly about the doctor. I think that's compelling and it's to his credit. But I will say I thought that the general presentation of Danny as

a soldier who's dealing with trauma in his past that we don't really understand until like we get a little bit of a payoff with the kid in the nether sphere sequence was like almost like a caricature of post-war grief and that's not again that's not about the performance that's about the the writing and the the deployment of the character but we just didn't we didn't get enough we didn't get enough

to understand Dany for him to have that big of an impact on the characters in that season, I don't think. I kind of feel like we also already covered a shielder and you already hit most of the points that I wanted to hit about her. And I don't think we need to linger here. I'm eager to get into something that I really loved, so I'm not dwelling too much on things that I didn't like. But I will just say that I think the concept of the Doctor-Savior complex, the ugly ramifications of that,

I think the concept of this immortal creature, I was texting or no, I put it in the doc in the, in the sort of like notes doc that I sent to you about the various episodes and,

There is opportunity here for a kind of story that I really, really enjoy. And I was reminded a lot of the Hobgadling storyline in Sandman. And so when we get either in a shielder or a character like Sam Swift, who gets the benefit, the other sort of immortal token, right? Like,

I wish that that was a character, like he was amusing, but I wish that was a character that I liked more or was excited to see more of. Or just this idea of trying to position, as there's not as much Missy in this season. There's a lot of Missy in the first season and the third season, but not so much in the second season. And so you set up a shielder as a sort of master-esque character

other immortal that can go toe-to-toe with a doctor. I love that as a concept, and I just didn't love it in execution. Yeah, this is definitely something I think I liked more than you did. Because I thought that even inside of uneven and inconsistent plot points or single episode storylines, I thought that we just got so many exchanges between the two of them that felt like...

really sensual and consequential to our understanding of the doctor and of the doctor at this point in his journey. You know, what happened to you? You did, doctor. I was like, fuck yeah. This is great, you know? And then him having to confront, like, I didn't know that your heart would rust because I kept it beating. Like, there are these brutal barbs in both directions that build toward, like,

some clarity, not ultimately about each other, but about what they both need, like why they are so dangerous for each other. You know, I thought the...

we need the mayflies. Do you see the mayflies? They know more than we do. They know how precious and beautiful life is because it's fleeting moment. When the doctor says that to a shoulder was like, it's very like good place finale. You know, like you, you have to understand that, like, don't just fear the finite things. I thought like a, an aspect like a, a shield or okay. We learned that she has had children that she has lost and she has grieved. And, and,

this realization that she keeps these diaries because she can't remember her own life otherwise. And like there are pages missing, but that's not one of them because she has to remember that specific horror so that she remembers not to do that to herself again. Like there were these moments of real impact inside of their relationship. So I, I, I enjoyed, uh, I enjoyed the conversations that they had, I guess. Everything you say, um,

I think it's brilliant. And I do think a lot of those, I think the writing was done really well. I honestly, I think it comes down to performance for me, unfortunately. So that's where I am. Speaking of performances, let's talk about the icon, Michelle Gomez as Missy. This is just unbelievable. Carlos, will you play this clip, please? Time lady. Thank you. Some of us can afford the upgrade.

Is it still the same old supreme Dalek these days? I fought him once on the slopes of the Nevervault. Tell him the bitch is back. Demented, horny, homicidal Mary Poppins. I love her. I truly have no notes. I thought that this was extraordinary. Absolutely captivating performance from Michelle Gomez. Just astonishing. And such an injection of...

humor and oddity, but also like these real deep philosophical existential moments of inquiry. Like it's the, it is the alchemy of Dr. Who in one character. I loved it. Loved. I knew her before Dr. Who. She's in this BBC series.

or maybe Channel 4, anyway, a British comedy called Green Wing, where she is equally bizarre, actually more bizarre. And it was just one of those things. Her performance in that show is one where I'm like, I am not confident this always works. I am not confident this always works. I think it's perfectly calibrated here. And then she's also in the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina after. So she just always brings this sort of

mania to all of her performances. Also, fun fact about her, she's married to Jack Davenport of Coupling and Pirates of the Caribbean fame. Wow. Yeah, a lot of stealth spouses in this run of Doctor Who. But I remember looking that up when I first saw her in Green Wing. I was just like looking her up and I was like, oh, good job, both of you. Honestly, great pull, both of you. Yeah.

But she, I just, I mean, I love the master always. And I'm actually quite happy that John Sim shows up at the end of all of this. It's really fun. But she's just next level. You know what I mean? And to bring that

level of chaos and mischief and fun. And then she does genuinely evil things. And you are with the doctor in the final season where you all, you're like, I want this to work. I want you to be redeemed because not just because you are so fun to watch, but like, wouldn't that energy is sort of, it's similar to Loki. Like, wouldn't that God of mischief energy be so perfectly, um,

you know, wielded for good. Like, I want to see it used, like, you know, to win the day. And I want to root for you. And, like, the show gives us a number of opportunities to root for her when she shows up to, like, save the doctor at the beginning of the second season. You know, like, it's just, you know, and I had forgotten how long they wait to let you know that she's the one in the vault. Yeah. Though I know you're very smart and you can figure it out. Yeah. But, like,

I was impatient. I was like a little impatient watching. I mean, I love that season, but I was just a little bit like, open the vault, open the vault. Like, don't just bring the, don't just bring the takeout and talk to the door. Open the vault. I want them, I wanted to have more scenes together. So I just, you know, hats off to Stephen Moffat. Stephen Moffat,

Rightly or wrongly so, gets dinged a lot for the way that he writes women. And like, I don't even know if you could call Missy a woman necessarily because she's just like an elemental creature. But this is one of my favorite things Moffat has ever done is Missy. I love her.

I also love Missy. I thought this was extraordinary. I cherished every second. I would have loved more, but in a way, the dispensing of doses of Missy helped me maybe appreciate every moment even more fully. The oath and the standing guard by the vault, and it was... The other thing in addition is just how incredible the performance is. I thought this was a great example of something...

that really helps us think about and like concretize the length of a Time Lord's life. And like the history that you share with somebody and how you could talk yourself back into something that you had like maybe told yourself that you had let go of. Because like if you're going to live, you're going to live for fucking ever. It's hard to stop thinking about the things you lost. So like the one who grieved or the one who lamented, it all feels very present here. Yeah.

With the Missy character and the relationship and that idea of friendship and wanting to believe. And I think, like, one of the things that was so great about the performance, especially at the end, you know, the final few episodes...

of season 10 is that there are moments where it doesn't seem like a... We're like, do we trust? The doctor is like, do I trust? But there are moments where it seems that Missy doesn't even know what decision she's going to make or why. You know, up on the rooftop sequence with the helicopter and it's like the back and forth, the push-pull. He's like, was this your plan all along? Right. And she was like...

Why complicate a good thing? Does she even know? Like genuinely, does she even know if it was her plan all along? And I think that's a hard thing to pull off and make us exist in that space of uncertainty and also believe that the character does. I think like there were a number of beautiful exchanges. My favorite between them and one of my favorites that we've gotten so far in the show was in the Eaters of Light, episode 10 of season 10, where

I don't even know why I'm crying. Why do I keep doing that now? And then 12 says, I don't know. Maybe you're trying to impress me. Missy says, yes, probably some devious plan. That sounds about right.

And then 12 says, well, the alternative would be much worse. Really? The alternative is that this is for real. And it's time for us to become friends again. And then there's like the hand grasping. You feel how drawn they are to each other, like how badly they both want this, even though they're afraid of it and afraid specifically of wanting it. And the potential heartache and heartbreak that awaits on the other side of that.

I don't know, 12 says. That's the trouble with hope. It's hard to resist. Like, that's the trouble with hope. It's hard to resist. It's just an all-timer? Yeah.

my favorite line not to spoil our superlatives. Maybe I'll pick something else when we get there, but that might be my favorite line from this run. I just, I mean, it's a little bit of a, it's the hope that kills you like lasso ism, but I just love that idea. And I love thinking about it with these two characters, reflections of each other, because if you're afraid to see that hope in your reflection, it means you're afraid to discover that hope inside of yourself. And that's like just a very sad thing to have to confront, um,

But also like hope in the span of a lifetime. Well, what about hope in the span of a lifetime like this, you know, in a history like this?

and how hard it would be to maintain, but also how it's even more essential because what else do you have then? And what havoc do you wreak on the people around you if you can't maintain a tether to that hope at all? So I just loved that moment, and I loved that they were getting each other to think about these things. I thought it was great. This is a genre trope that maybe years down the line when we've burned through the more obvious tropes we might get to, but this idea of the two immortals who...

have hated each other but no one can understand me the way that you do and so there's just like often winds up being this sort of like weary detente but like um that line she has uh was she talking to bill i think it is and she says she said time lords are friends with each other dear everything else is cradle snatching like i just love that so good so good so good man um

And then let's talk about My Darling Bill. Please. Please. Asterisk and Nardole is here also. I actually quite like Nardole. Oh my God. Same. And that was a pleasant, really pleasant surprise to me in season 10 because...

while The Husbands of River Song is a great episode of Nardles there. Then Nardles in the next episode. And I was like, oh boy, is this a recurring thing inside of a subsequent episode that is not nearly as good? How long is this going to happen? Also, I might just be in a little bit of the Great British Bake Off zone still. Matt Lucas is so interesting because I think he's a terrible bake off host and I am like mix it best on Little Britain, but I love him as Nardles.

Nardole. I just think he works. Yeah, I was just so won over by Matt Lucas as Nardole in season 10. I just absolutely loved Nardole. Loved. Also, very Hera Syndulla of like Nardole. Everybody pronouncing it slightly differently over every episode. You know what's easy to pronounce? Bill. Bill Potts. Bill Potts. Just another fucking great name in Doctor Who. Bill Potts.

This is the stuff, Lionel. Let's hear a little taste of Bill. Two portions. One portion. Is there going to be food sexism even in the future? Is this bloke utopia? That's so good. Is this bloke utopia? I love her. I love her introduction when she's called into his office. So it's tantalizing as an idea for a character of like, here's a young woman who's

She works in the CAF, but she's so intellectually curious. And he says that thing about when other people don't understand something, they frown and you smile. And she just catches his eye as someone who is excited and curious. And as I've alluded to a couple times, this third season wasn't ever even really supposed to exist. There were a couple times when Moffat was planning to hang it up

We got this email from our listener Matthew, who says, Moffet, by all accounts, had been planning to finish his run after The Husbands of Riversong, an episode which wraps up the Riversong arc and finishes with a happy ending for the Doctor. Phrasing. Instead...

He stays on for another year because the next showrunner had to complete his work on Broadchurch. That's Chris Chibnall. And a common question in the fandom at the time was, doesn't he look tired? Or how many variations of, quote, everybody lives or, quote, the girl who waited had we seen? Had Moffat run out of new ideas? Season 10 could have been Moffat exhausted and running on fumes. Instead, we get an incredible injection of...

Chills. Yeah. So Bill, there's...

Many multiverses in which the character of Bill Potts doesn't exist at all because Moffat thought he was going to wrap it all up with Clara and the Doctor and then his own Creation River song and then Call It A Day. And then we get Professor, Doctor, we get this extended use of Nardole.

And we get Bill fucking Potts, who I just love. And I like, again, I was covering the show for Vanity Fair at the time. So I got to like talk to Pearl Mackie a couple of times. And I just, I also love her. I think she's phenomenal. She's just so, just like such an, like the freshest breath of air into the show. She's got that like enthusiasm and affection for the doctor, but she's not like,

moony-eyed crushing on him. She's queer for one. She adores him, but it's not like that

Hero worship, she does call him out in that sort of not quite Donna way, but a little bit. And it's a very retro throwback to a doctor companion relationship as signaled by the inclusion of the photo of Susan Foreman. The grand on the very first companion to the very first doctor, we get a photo of her on his desk and he's looking at it.

you know, lingeringly and significantly as he's talking to Bill about... Our eye is drawn. Yeah, I was talking to Bill about being her tutor. Bill, I just... So the thing about Bill, kind of universally beloved companion, so this is not an original opinion, but usually when you bring up someone like Bill, like every time I've talked to Arjuna about Bill and how excited I was for you to meet her or something like that, we'd be like, oh, Bill...

terrible ending for Bill. Like, what a bummer of how it all went down for Bill in the end. Deeply sad. Oh, my God. And then everyone also is like, wish we had more time with Bill. Wish we had more seasons with Bill. And I agree. Yeah. So give me your Bill thoughts. Mallory or Bill. Yeah. I, like many companions and characters on the show, was like waiting for the doctor to figure out something at the end so that that was not the way things went for our dear Bill. Um...

I think you put it beautifully. I was instantly captivated by Bill Potts. I thought that this was a tremendous performance, a tremendous character. I loved the energy. I loved the vibe. I think right away we get so many little lines and moments that signal like

what flavor we're about to get here. Like we've mentioned a couple of them already, but the Dr. What as we cut to the intro instead of Dr. Who, it's like a little thing, but it puts us off kilter in the best possible way. Right? Like you got to expect something a little bit different here. Or when she's like, is this a lift? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, go anywhere in the university. So knock through. And I had noted the line that you mentioned that they frown, you smile because that feels so significant. Not only that he spots that in her and that's somebody seeing you clearly, right? And valuing a thing that is essential about you. That's beautiful. That's

It's wonderful. That's the opposite of toxic. That's incredible. But also just the fact that that is true about Bill and how quickly that is put into action. Like, I just... It's so winning in the first few episodes.

how inquisitive Bill is and how much Bill wants to learn and know and understand, but also how like comfortable Bill is with like the natural rhythm of life and the passage of time. You know, I was really, I thought it was really notable that some of the things that are like day one new companion checklist items are things that Bill learns way later. Like,

the telepathic TARDIS field translating. You know, it's not until we're with the Romans in Scotland that Bill is piecing together that she's speaking Latin and that the Roman soldier understands. It happens so much later comparatively to when a companion normally learns how some of the magic and the science of the TARDIS works or what Bill learns about the doctor's history and Gallifrey. I think there's just a lot...

The dispensing and parceling out of those are happening later or like it's like a time release capsule instead of like, here's the day one download. And I think that could, again, it's an example of like a really like deft execution because I think you could say, well, does that track? Like if this is the most inquisitive companion and somebody who's eager to learn and explore and examine and know, like would it take that long for Bill to like learn that the TARDIS translates? But I don't know, it worked so well for me because like,

part of what makes Bill Bill is the comfort and the confidence finding things when they're meant to be found, you know? And like, I just really, I really loved that

And also Bill's just cool. Like Bill's cool and fun. And it's great to spend time with Bill when we want what is best for Bill. I was shattered beyond repair when we got to where there's tears, there's hope in The Doctor Falls in episode 12 of season 10. That was just absolutely devastating. But like Bill, yeah, Bill processing like,

going to be afraid of me for the rest of my life. You know what I mean? Horrible. Just horrifying. Just like really waited 10 years, missed the doctor by like, you know. Deeply, deeply sad. Deeply sad. And I also would have loved more, more time with Bill. Yeah.

Speaking of Bill, we don't need to linger too long here because I don't know that I have a brilliant answer. It's just something that I want to put out there. Maybe one of our brilliant listeners has a great take or maybe you do. But I think it's interesting that the Cybermen both in... I mean, okay, so I will say this. And again, this might have been the corners of the internet that I was frequenting. But as we talked about various elements of representation on Doctor Who,

I think it was, like, notable and disappointing that, like, two prominent Black characters in a row were turned into Cybermen. First Danny and then Bill. I was just like, that's not my favorite thing that has happened. The Cybermen showing up as...

major antagonists in in the capaldi run when we had been so dalek focused for so long i thought was interesting and i was wondering if do you have any theories about what it says about this doctor or what's on moffat's mind other than like okay we've done the daleks let's do something else that that put the cybermen at the at the fore here it's an interesting question i i i

I don't know. I mean, I guess, like, on the one hand, I think that, obviously, the Cybermen are there at the end of the first season and the third season in, like, just, like, this incredibly prominent fashion. I think that

One of the more impactful villain-centric aspects of the Capaldi run for me was the Davros interaction with the Doctor. Maybe I'll save some of... No, you know what? I'm not going to hit this in Superlives because I probably have another pick coming for villains. So maybe we can quickly talk about it here. But I thought those conversations in The Magician's Apprentice about... And this is, of course, what sparks the hybrid conversation.

plot that is the through line of, of that season. But like those conversations about compassion and the idea of like compassion is your weakness, but also this question of the hybrid and what part of you do you put into another person, et cetera, um, was really interesting. And I thought that stuff like seeing Davros as a kid and realizing that the doctor had had this interaction with kid, scared kid Davros stuck in the battlefield, um, was like incredible. So I

You know, we had a big Dalek plot, certainly. But yeah, the Cybermen... I mean, I guess there's this aspect of connecting to the hybrid idea still. Because human Cybermen, you know, are you more than one thing? Does someone make you more than one thing? Do they weaponize you in some way? Yeah.

Memory, you know, identity, holding on to something inside of you. Shaping something in your image. Yeah, and there's like another real through line across these seasons I thought was truth, you know, like in part because of the confession dial and the role that that plays, which we'll talk about more when we talk about Heaven Sent. But the hybrid is connected to truth, the idea of the oath with the vault. Like there's a lot about truth amongst us.

The Cybermen are like definitionally a lie because they are encasing something hidden. So I think they connect. Maybe they felt like a

Maybe they felt like an apt villain for unlocking some of that. But I was kind of shocked that we wound up with two of three final season arcs centered around the Cybermen. I was like, this is sort of strange. Almost to the point where we want to hop in the TARDIS and buzz by a few key episodes, all of which we've shouted out. But hey, that's showbiz.

But we do want to take a pause and just note that Stephen Moffat, for all of his sins and all of his greatness, is the king of the Christmas special. Because Last Christmas, which gives us Santa. Oh, yeah. It's really fun. The Husbands of Riversong.

And then the return of Dr. Mysterio happens. But like, anyway, like these are great Christmas specials that Moffat gives us. And I loved last Christmas. Oh, I love that episode. Yeah. It's a great episode. Fantastic. Really good sci-fi concept. Super, super creepy dream crabs drinking your brain through their penetrating straw. Yeah.

Great to see the waif. You had texted me an out-of-context picture of the way the Christmas itinerary to-do list had, like, Thrones marathon on there, but you didn't tell me which character was going to be connected to it, so that was...

That was delightful. But yeah, the Christmas specials are so good. Nick Frost is Santa. It's great. Fantastic. And that idea of like, you know what the problem is in telling fantasy and reality apart? What? They're both ridiculous. But also like just the inception-like aspect of dreams within dreams. And do you understand reality? That was a really fun one.

them explaining alien to the doctor and he's like, you have a horror movie called Alien? That's offensive. No wonder why they keep invading you. That's definitely on my short list for potential funniest moment picks. That killed me. That's so funny. And before we go, since you already brought up the waif, the great Faye Marseille, watch Pride if you've never seen it. Incredible. We talked about Maisie. We talked about Faye Marseille. Any other Thrones actors that you want to show

showing up where you're like, oh, hey. Well, not totally the same as being in a Pompeii episode and then being the 12th Doctor for three seasons, but David Bradley's back, folks. Making a return inside of Doctor Who, our second run with David Bradley. This was more satisfying getting to see David Bradley play an earlier version of the Doctor than it was to see him play...

a dinosaur smuggler in a spaceship in essence. So that was fun. Donald Sumter, always a treat. Maester Luwin, yeah. Put me on my heels to be rooting against Maester Luwin as an evil and controlling Time Lord. I was like, but it's Maester Luwin who I love and would die for him.

How dare you? Frankly, how dare you? One of my favorite like pop quiz hotshot moments that I had with you before you started watching the season is I said, because I had forgotten. I sent you the photo of Paul K and his prosthetics, good old Thor's of mirror. And I was like, who, which Doctor Who actor do you think this is? And you named every single Doctor Who actor that ever was. You like...

You can't. You cannot tell at all that this is our guy, Thoros. And then getting to why I was like, maybe I'll see it when I'm watching moving pictures instead of just looking at a screenshot that Joe decks me. No, this is so obscured beneath the makeup and the prosthetics is wild. You can be a little bit of the crinkle around the eye. Maybe the Hallmark crinkle. Google Paul. Google Paul K. K-Y-E. Doctor Who.

And then tell me that you can see Thor's mirror underneath there. You simply cannot. Impossible. Though delightful to be with Paul Kay as always.

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All right, should we go into the episodes? All right, we have picked one, two, three, four, five with a smuggle of a sixth episode to zip through here at the end. We've already shouted out most of these, so we're just going to zip through this. But season nine, episode 11 and 12, Heaven Sent and Hell Bent. Heaven Sent, I think, is widely considered to be

Uh, if not the best, then like the second behind blank, um, in terms of iconic Doctor Who episodes. I think it also helps to our point about the grief, uh, Heaven Sent being the episode wherein the Doctor is trapped inside the confession's aisle and has to like go through a loop to figure out A, what's going on, B, uh, punch his way through rock harder than diamond. Um,

and takes him, what is it, four billion years? Is that right? - Four and a half. - Four and a half billion years to get through it. You don't necessarily need to know what's going on. I think this is a "Who" episode you could, in theory, watch in isolation,

Mainly because Capaldi sells the grief about Clara without us needing to know really anything about Clara. And I think I want to start with this clip of Jenna Coleman. This was a surprise appearance. Everyone thought Jenna Coleman was done with show. And then she showed up here, not just the back of her head, but the lady herself. Carlos, will you play this clip, please? I can remember, Clara. You don't understand. I can remember it all, every time.

And you'll still become whatever I do. You still won't be there. Doctor, you are not the only person who ever lost someone. It's the story of everybody. Get over it. Beat it. Break free. Doctor, it's time. Get up. Off your ass. And win. This is also on the list of episodes that feel like... People put this on the list of episodes that feel like video games.

And also this is really high on the list of actually like a very cheap episode of Doctor Who, similar to like something like Midnight, which is nonetheless like extremely, extremely effective. And then Hellbent. Hellbent.

is the payoff of the promise of Gallifrey returning in the anniversary special. So we get like full, silly collar, weird politics, Time Lord stuff. Not necessarily exactly how I thought the whole Gallifrey thing was going to pay off, but as we mentioned before, Maester Luwin's here, so that's exciting. But we get that frame narrative, that really mournful Clara frame narrative that makes Hellbent really, really hit. What do you want to say about Heaven Sent and Hellbent that we have not already? Molly Rubin.

I will wait until we finish our rewatch, I think, to like...

lock in my list of top, you know, three or five or whatever favorite episodes. And as always, I reserve the right to change my mind at any point, including on subsequent rewatches because one of the things I've really found myself thinking about after watching these seasons is like, the Capaldi seasons is, I, I, 10 is my favorite Doctor still, but I could see like really wanting to, I could see being in different points in my life and that having a bearing on which Doctor I felt like I wanted to spend my time with most. And,

I think with those caveats issued and the right to change my mind reserved, I think Heaven Sent is my favorite episode of Doctor Who. I thought this was extraordinary. Like, just absolutely extraordinary. And Hellbent was... I thought the...

Clara, Doctor strumming his guitar, framing of Hellbent, much more so than the actual Gallifrey aspect, like you're saying was. But it just felt like such a satisfying conclusion for their arc. I was so deeply moved so many times across these two episodes, but...

I think that Heaven Sent specifically, and I'm really interested in us talking more maybe in the future if this does hold up as my favorite and Midnight is your favorite, what it means that our two favorite episodes of Doctor Who don't really feature the companion, given how companion-centric our journeys seem to be. I think that's fascinating. So maybe we can dive into that a little bit more in the future. But I think that this was...

It feels like my favorite, but certainly no matter what would be among my top two or three favorites at the end of all things. It has everything I want out of a Doctor Who episode, and I think much like Midnight, much like Blink, it is so high concept that to pull it off, to execute it well, is just, I think, a singular achievement. The final 15 minutes of Heaven Sent, when we are cutting in and out of everything

The repeating loop that the doctor is on and figuring out what has happened, what is happening, the horror, the dawning realization that every one of those skulls is his, the cutting to the top of the tower as the timeline builds from 7,000 to 12,000 to 6,000. The real pain, the real, real pain that he's feeling every time. All you need for energy is something to burn. And like for that something to be you. I mean, and I'm just not sure that there's like

a more chillingly but perfectly delivered line than how could there be other prisoners in my hell? Like, I...

It was just, like, exquisite. I thought this was just absolutely exceptional. And the payoff of the story of the bird, like, I think that's a hell of a bird as he punches through. It's like, yes, that's our doctor. And then, of course, like, the horror of realizing that this is how the confession dial was used and, like, the perversion of the sanctity of, like, your last will and testament and your... the torment that is built specifically for you for processing, being used...

as a torture chamber to try to get you to confess a truth that you don't want to share and maybe even aren't ready to like confront yourself. It just was brilliant. I absolutely loved it. Another all-time banger is next. And instead of saying what it is, I'm just going to have Carlos play the clip. Carlos, will you play this?

God knows where he is right now, but I promise you, he's doing whatever the hell he wants and not giving a damn about me! And I'm just fine with that! When you love the Doctor, it's like loving the stars themselves. You don't expect a sunset to admire you back. And if I happen to find myself in danger, let me tell you, the Doctor is not stupid enough or sentimental enough, and he is certainly not in love enough to find himself standing in it with me! Hello, sweetie.

You are so doing those roots. But the roots of the sunset. Don't have to check with the stars themselves. Isn't it I let that clip run longer? Okay, we are in the Husbands of River Song, one of the greatest episodes of television that has ever existed.

Probably my favorite Christmas special. Just a phenomenal episode of television. The reason I let it run longer than people usually do, they usually cut it off at Hello Sweetie, is because their little, like, screwball comedy banter after is another... This episode is both so sentimental...

And also so just like zany and fun and zippy and funny. You get the great... We already mentioned Matt Lucas is here. You get the great, great Davies is also here. Another comedian that I love. And then you just get like fucking hijinks galore. Heists and crime and all this sort of stuff. And then we get to watch... What is River Song like when she doesn't think the doctor is watching her? Is such a fun idea for an episode of television. And like...

We got this great long email from Andrea that I'm not going to, or Andrea, I'm so sorry, I don't know how to pronounce her name, which I'm not going to read right now just because we're running a little long, but thank you so much for this email. But it echoed exactly what I think about this episode, which is when I voiced my frustrations with River Song in the Matt Smith era, I was just thinking about this in contrast because I think the lack of what I deem the lack of

chemistry between those two performers. As you know, I don't agree. But yes, you feel it differently here. But then you see fucking Capaldi and like Alex Kingston and you're like, Jesus Christ. And then more importantly than the chemistry question is the treatment of River Song by the 11th Doctor and all the like ways in which she like supplicates herself for his importance

and all this sort of stuff. And the way that Stephen Moffat, again, I think being reactive to those critiques flips the script very much so in this episode. And so you just get like fun comedy veris misunderstandings, the doctor being jealous, the doctor being insecure. Um,

And then the doctor just giving her the gift of telling her, I do love you. I do care about you. I think about you. Yeah. The 11th Doctor does a bit at the end, but not in a way that satisfies me. Not like this. So, yeah. I loved this episode. I thought this was wonderful. I think you perfectly captured why. The fact that River doesn't recognize him felt...

like such a master stroke to me because it really, it's an embodiment of a lot of what you're identifying. And like for the doctor who would just expect her to know it's him and sense it's him. And how could she not know it's me, the great love of her life and the most important figure in the universe. It's like, actually, it's not all about you.

either all the time and like it was a nice balancing of the scales that like he had to earn from her something that she always had to earn from him i really liked that i really really liked that and then the final couple minutes as they're standing out looking at the towers just like believable i mean to the chemistry point that you made when he turns and looks at her

Oh my God. Like to just know the quality of sex they had for the next 24 years based on what passed in that glance is a very satisfying thing. Indeed. Oh yes, indeed. Perfectly deployed, Carlos. Yeah, I think it's- I completely agree. I will say, as with all things River Song, if you think too hard about the timey-wimey-ness of it, I'm not sure that I, I'm not sure I can connect the dots between this river who is like

Pretty sure she's about to die with the river that we meet in her initial episodes with David Tennant. But I'm willing to ignore it because the rest of this episode is so good. Let's hear a little clip from the final moments between the two of them on the balcony. Nobody really understands where the music comes from. It's probably something to do with the precise positions, the distance between both towers. Even the locals aren't sure.

All anyone will ever tell you is that when the wind stands fair and the night is perfect, when you least expect it, but always when you need it the most, that is the song. I am incapable of watching that scene without crying. I think it's so beautiful. Shout out the Murray Gold, you know, choral music behind as well. But when Stephen Moffat gets so...

up his own ass about language, like the whole Amy Pond River song thing, and I roll my eyes, this is the exact opposite of that. He just says, like, there is a song, and I just start crying. It's so beautiful. It's beautiful. Also, when the wind stands fair, it's just, like, stunning. The thing that we can't capture in just the audio clip, shout out podcasts, is...

In that pause, in the, but always when you need it most, there is a song build up and pause. The way that he is look like the side eye, the way that he, he's shy. He's nervous. The doctor is shy. Like there's a moment where he is not sure he's vulnerable. And like, it just felt,

It's so meaningful, the history between them. And I think the other thing that was beautiful about it is like the beginning of that exchange, looking out at the towers, was also, I thought, lovely and really compelling times and river because they have to, because there's no such thing as happy ever after. It's just a lie we tell ourselves because the truth is so hard. And she says, no, doctor, you're wrong.

Happy ever after doesn't mean forever. It just means time, a little time. But that's not the sort of thing you could ever understand, is it? And then when we build toward the how long is a night on Deryllium, 24 years, it's like a moment where he can show somebody that he does, like that he actually does understand Deryllium.

that it is just about time and finding that time to be with another person and granting them the gift of your time in return. Your attention. Yeah. It's wonderful. The romantic gesture of waiting for the restaurant to be built. All of that. And then also we should say, Alex Kingston looks so hot in this episode. I mean, always. She gets to wear all these incredible gowns. She just looks amazing. I just...

I love this episode. I just started crying while we were talking about it. It's so good. I mean, Silence of the Library and Forest of the Dead, that was season four. 2008. Like, oh my God. What a payoff at the end. All right. Last but not least.

Season 10, episodes 11 and 12, World Enough in Time and The Doctor Falls. And then also we're just going to smuggle in like The Doctor's Last Scene, which comes in the special that comes after the finale. But this is a good chance to talk a bit more about Missy. We say goodbye to her here and to the Doctor and to Bill, to Narnal. But I like, so this question of...

Um, the Missy as a mirror of that question of like, am I a good man? Which is a question that the doctor asked in his second episode to Clara. He says to Clara answer the answer to my next question, which must be honest and cold and considered without kindness or restraint. Clara, be my pal and tell me, am I a good man? Clara says, I don't know. And he says, neither do I. And like in that episode into the Dalek second episode of Capaldi's run, um,

A Dalek isn't so inspired by the Doctor's hatred for the Daleks. Like, it's just bad times when your worst side is the source of inspiration for, like, the most lethal type of character in the Who-iverse, right? Not great. Not what you want. No. And so this is an ongoing question, like...

You can decide for yourself whether or not this is like inconsistency or whatever for him to come to the conclusion at the end of season eight, whether or not I'm a good man doesn't matter. That's what he decides then. But he's back on his am I a good man shit in season 10. And this is what he says to Bill and Nardole about Missy. Carlos, will you play this clip?

She's my friend. She's my oldest friend in the universe. Well, you've got lots of friends. Better ones. What's so special about her? She's different. Different how? I don't. Yes, you do. She's the only person I've ever met who's even remotely like me. So more than anything, you want her to be good? Are you having an emotion? I know I can help her. Yeah. Look at that face. He's having an emotion. Yeah. Yes, look at that bit. Yeah, he's doing emotion. Oh, leave him alone. Can I take a selfie with you?

Oh, Nardole. So good. Darling Nardole. Love him. Nardole and his plaid outerwear. Wonderful stuff. Incredible. What do you want to say about this idea of Missy as if I can prove that she is good, then I am good. Yeah, this is the doctor's scared as a superpower. Because what does wanting Missy mean?

to be good this desperately. He would take an oath to guard her vault for a thousand years of reform and giving Missy these chances, crisps present or not, when other people tell you that you shouldn't. What does that... What does it mean? Like, what is the other...

side of the same coin of wanting Missy to be good. It's being afraid that you're bad. You know, it's fearing that sameness that you see in yourself and like fearing what you're capable of. So I just, I think that's part of the tragedy of the doctor not getting to find out what choice Missy makes at the end. It's like to not get

That final piece and beat of affirmation, like Missy chose to help, Missy chose to stand with me. And like, what does the absence of that knowledge mean moving forward? Well, what I like for that is that, and like, again, eat your heart out, Loki and Sylvie, the master and Missy together is...

When we say toxic in a bad way, we mean Clara and the Doctor. When we say toxic in a great way, we mean the Master and Missy. Did you... Okay, I know that you are like... You're one of the sharpest TV watchers I know. One of my most brilliant pals. Did John Simms' prosthetics and accent fool you?

Did I spoil you with the, by putting his name in the doc? Like what was your experience? No, I try not to read ahead in the doc. I look at what you wrote after I watched an episode. So, um, you know, river, one of the many gifts that river song has given me is spoilers. You know, I'm always, I'm always on my guard in the doc.

It's just so clearly a prosthetic, a facial prosthetic that much like who is in the vault, you're like, well, who is under this mask? Somebody. Who's under this accent? Yeah, it's like a kind of

short list of characters who would make the most sense and have the most impact in that way. That said, nothing diminished the impact of Johnson's returning and the Master being there. I will save some of my commentary for one of my superlative picks, but I will just say that watching the Master and Missy together, when we say sometimes on pods, like, I could just simply watch these two people in scenes for the rest of my life and never tire of it, this will be one of my new go-to examples. Yeah.

One of my favorite, outside of what I think is going to wind up in your superlatives, is when they get up in the plane and the master says to Nardole, the doctor's dead and he said he never liked you. And then Missy comes up and says the exact same thing. So good. So funny. And then the flip side, of course, of that delight is the heartbreak we've already talked about. The ending for Bill...

Really devastating. I am glad. I do like the way that they did it. It was a little bit of a repeat of Clara is a Dalek, doesn't know she's a Dalek from her introduction. But I didn't mind because it meant we got to see Pearl Mackie's face for longer. And that just felt important. And she's just so good. And I love that. And so for the doctor to lose Bill...

To fail to get Missy to stand with him in that moment, even though she intends to come back and stand with him later. Then what we get, and this is satisfying to me narratively, thematically, what we get at the end is,

is the doctor who's frantically been searching for his worth and his value and his goodness in the mirrors of the people around him, be it Clara or be it Bill to a certain extent or be it Missy, is a Dr. West's stand alone without hope, quote, without hope, without witness, without reward. That gave me a chill. Without hope, without witness, without reward. Absolute full-body chill. And like...

I think that ties into the Ashildr question as well, because like saving Ashildr is one of those moments that's like, look at me, I'm a hero, right? Like regard me, I'm a hero. And this is without hope, without witness, without reward, right? They're doing like a little Magnificent Seven or Bugs Life, if you prefer, storyline here. And here he is doing the best that he can do when he can do it. And that's a beautiful thing.

It really is. This was all great. Very Sandra to Parra. We with bill returning and it's like, I am real. I am bill. I have my memories. What more do you need to be a person? And the doctor's like real struggle with that. I know I, I, it's not my favorite part about twice upon a time, but, um, I, I do love, I do love how much the first doctor just like roasts the 12th doctor. It's like really funny. Also 12s, absolute mortification that like he used to say those things. Yeah.

So funny. Good stuff. And then let's, you know, as is tradition on these rewatches, let's hear the Doctor's final words. Carlos, will you play this? Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind. Doctor, I let you go.

Shout out again, Murray Gold. But I think it's so fun to compare the relative economy of the Russell T. Davies goodbyes from his doctors versus the Moffat doctors who get... Because that is the end of a very long monologue that Capaldi does on his way out the door. I like these long goodbyes. I like it too. I just think it's funny. This was great. I let you go. What a... I let you go. What a...

A little loaded and perfect. After a doctor who does not want to regenerate. Yeah, who doesn't want to regenerate. Yeah. Wonderful. Superlatives. All right, let's blast through these superlatives. And before we say goodbye to Capaldi, favorite line, Mallory Rubin. Oh, torn. I'm going with...

Oh, narrowly edging out. That's the trouble with hope. It's hard to resist. I'm going with nothing sad till it's over than everything is because it just feels like it cuts to the heart of a thing. I'm constantly saying to you on pods about that's that's my pick. How about you? I also have two. I'm of two minds about this. One is you already mentioned it. I think that's one hell of a bird. It's just a great line.

Um, but I think it has to be who frowned me this face, which is just like so Shakespearean that I spent literally an hour trying to Google if this was like drawn from anything. It's like, as you said, when the wind stands fair, like there are these moments of highly, highly elevated language. And then who frowned me this face is both so good and

And in the tradition of Shakespeare, then you can, you know, it's like, oh, the to be or not to be speech or what a piece of work a man's speech or like whatever. You can say the who frowned me this face speech and I just think it's,

iconic all right uh best villain i mean come on it's missy yeah it's hard to beat missy if i have to pick a one-off it might be david suchet's poirot himself as the landlord from hell um because i just love like what a mysterious little weirdo he is tapping his tuning fork into the wall so yeah uh incredibly upsetting episode creaky houses unsettle me so beetles really upset me okay

Best fit. Okay. We've spent a lot of wonderful time together today, but I do think we have been remiss in one area and it's this. We have not spent enough time toasting 12's overall fashion sense.

which is extraordinary, exemplary. The velvet and velour jackets, the sweaters, the tails with holes in them. Oh, yeah. That tatty jacket is so good. It's so good. That evolution into the rocker in season nine and then hot prof in season 10. Inside of all of this just absolute splendor, my favorite look is the opening look of season 10. The boots, the black pants,

The hoodie, the blazer, the longer hair, specifically in the pilot episode, the episode called The Pilot, when he's got the long, dark, like the long, dark outer coat, this like rusty cranberry hoodie, the black shirt underneath, and then the red shirt with the cuffs poking out under that. It's like Josh Aronson and Chris Ryan

bow down to this layering. Not even they, the layer kings. And the way he worked that lecture, that lecture stage in this bit. That Josh Harrison reference is like an elite reference from you. And I loved it. Thank you. So that's my pick. I just thought it was amazing. My runner up is the like dark maroon coat from Heaven Sent. That like plush velvet. Oh, gorgeous. Just fantastic with the buttons. Um...

I have to go with the season nine premiere guitar on the tank, but more, more crucially the window pane plaid pants. Those are like, that's some of my top tier favorite pants of all time on any way. It's either I have two favorite pants, which are like those window pane like plaid pants. I believe that's what they're called. Or, uh, the red plaid pants that like people, like if you can get away with those, like the dream of the nineties is alive on your body. And I love that. Um,

Okay. Best guest star. I know we don't agree on this one, but I am going with our... Yeah. Just because I did... Yeah. I liked the... I liked the text that her character... I like you supporting Maisie. Unlocked for us. I support you supporting Maisie. Do you ever think or care what happens after you've flown away? I live in the world you leave behind. So good. Great. What about you? Toss-up between...

And I know we agree on this. Tom Riley is hot Robin Hood. I mean, there's never been an un-hot Robin Hood, by the way, but like, especially, like very charming, dashing. Remarkable. Robin Hood.

Or a comedian that I love, Frank Skinner, who shows up as sort of like a pseudo-companion on the Mummy on the Orient Express episode. He's just a really good foil for Capaldi's energy. And the 12th Doctor tries to recruit him and he's like, no, thank you. You're disturbing. But I just thought Frank Skinner just brought something really fun and offbeat to that. So I was a fan. All right. Horniest...

moment say it with me the mastermind to fuck Missy it's the master cat erection as Missy pins him against and yes it is a wooden beam it is a wooden beam and the way that

He looks down at his own throbbing boner as he says, by the way, is it wrong that I... And then she says, yes, very. And the subtitles go to gulps. Oh my God. Incredible. Iconic. Can't be topped. Can't be matched. We agree, of course.

Okay, this is a tough one for me because the budget is no longer what it was when this category was announced. Hardest to figure out by far. Cringiest low-budget moment. I do have an answer, but... Me too. But it wasn't like some of the other House of Hoop pods where I was like, here are my 27 nominees. Exactly. I'm going with Wooden Eliza, Jo. Oh, that's a good one. From Knock Knock. That's a good one. Not just because of the, like,

wooden visit. The wood shaving head? Yes. It is specifically the nest of like wood shaving wicker string. Yeah.

on her head as her wooden mouth and is leaking out. I do not understand. Oh God. Yeah. That's my pick. That's my pick. What about you? That's a really good one. I mean, it's not fair because they're using an old like character design, but the Zygons, like the Zygons just look dumb, but like by design. But also I just want to shout out like actual, like low budget, like,

The veil in Heaven Sent is just a sheet on someone, you know what I mean? And like a bunch of flies. And it is amazing. It's the opposite of cringe, but I'm just like, that's inventive lowbunch. There's a lot of people in suits in this season, which I quite enjoy. But there's also a lot of characters that are essentially just like another version of the silence. Like the monks are basically just the silence, but that's fine. Funniest moment.

Okay. We already mentioned there's a horror movie called Alien that's really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you. So I'll go elsewhere. I have three contenders. One, he's been raising that eyebrow for a week. Yes. So funny. Really good. But also, I did enjoy... I got a kick out of the...

recurring bit of the doctor having to turn to the index cards that Clara had made him for like how to navigate human interaction. So when in under the lake, they're like, Moran was our friend and she has to guide him toward the cards. And then he says, he basically pulls a Ron Burgundy and just reads right off the teleprompter. He's like, I'm very sorry for your loss. I'll do all I can to solve the death of your friend slash family member slash pet. That

That killed me. And my final nominee is now I've read a lot of books that this chair would be quite useful for. Moby Dick. Honestly, shut up and get to the whale. Killed me. Great stuff. Shut up and get to the whale is just sensational. Genuinely, if you've never read Moby Dick, it's like two thirds of the book before you get to the whale. Maybe more. In this episode, here's my funniest moment.

River Song says, it's a time machine. I could take it, do whatever I want for as long as I like, and pop it back a second later. He'll never know it was gone. The doctor says, yes, he will. How? Well, he'll just know. Well, he's never noticed before. Maybe he'll notice now. I mean, it's just like so good. Really funny. Delightful. What a joy.

Just watching Peter Capaldi process that River Song has been stealing his TARDIS for years without him knowing is just absolutely delightful. No notes. All right, most emotional moment. Other than having to say goodbye to Hot Robin Hood after just one episode, which I am still working through my grief. It's a two-way tie for me. It is...

The doctor spending millions of years trying to get back to Clara and the beautiful, agonizing speech where he realizes what is happening and what he is having to do and telling us the last part of The Shepherd's Boy, the story of the bird. Or it's River and the doctor staring at the tower, sharing those beautiful moments that we already heard. Those were the two where I was just like...

Just awed and just felt so deeply watching both of those stretches in those two episodes. So I love that. And in the episode in between had a candidate too. I think like realizing the doctor doesn't remember Clara and like going back to that beginning opening scene of the episode. And he's like, I know. And you realize like he doesn't know who he's talking to. Those are, that's a, that's a three-way race, man. It's tough. Third shout out to Murray gold when he's playing Clara's theme, um,

on his guitar, like her, the, oh, it kills me. I also have a two-way tie and it is between the river, river and the doctor looking at the towers of Drillium. And it is this, I mean, everything that happens with Bill at the end, but chiefly this moment when the master is trying to goad her and you see like cyber Bill say like, I'm not upset. And then you cut to like seeing human Bill and she's like,

weeping silently. Agonizing. Devastating. Agonizing. What a great show, Doctor Who. So good. This was fun. I can't believe we're on our last rewatch pod after this. I'm despondent. And a quick update from Scenes of a Marriage. I got a voicemail from Mallory last night that Capaldi is now

her beloved spouse, Adam's doctor. This was a twist, not because I'm like, wait, what? I think quality was exceptional, but he gave me no indication while we were watching that this was happening. I thought he stopped because he was out of tune when you had to watch like a whole season. He missed a few. I think he did miss the end of the first season. So like, that helped. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You were like, Adam's out of town. I have to watch all these episodes. I was like, oh no, we lost Adam on the Doctor Who rewatch. No, he came right back in and he's going to catch up on the few he missed. But yeah, he just, we finished last night and he was like,

move over 11. And I said, I literally need you to stop speaking to me so that I can grab my phone. We can record your testimony for Joanna. Who's interviewing who he said in the, in the voice of me, you said delightful scenes for marriage update for you guys. All right. We will be back. Can't wait. At some point as yet to be determined in November to talk about Jodi Whittaker.

And all of her episodes. The homework for that is all the rest of the existing episodes of Doctor Who until the 60th anniversary special. We're so excited for that. We will be back on Monday to talk Loki, episode four. Some major developments there. Invincible as well next week. This episode was produced by Carlos Cherboga.

Additional production work and general Doctor Who support from Regina Regbaul. Social support from Jomia Dineron. And listen, Mallory, I get to see your face with my face in like less than 48 hours. And that's really thrilling to me. So I can't wait where there's tears, there's hope. Bye.