Surviving in 'The Last of Us' Universe, Reading Recommendations, 'Doctor Who' Prep, and More Mailbag!
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And welcome into the Ringerverse here on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin, and it is my absolute pleasure to invite you not only back to the Boston QZ, but also to join us here on the Ringer's Nexus podcast feed for all things fandom. Joining me today, now that she's finished telling me she never asked me for anything, not to feel the way she felt. Yeah.

Just to do the intro for this podcast so that we can get to today's mailbag, it's my house of work. Co-host Joanna Robinson. How dare you invoke mushroom tendrils on a Friday morning? Always. You know, we have like two more days before I have to think seriously about mushroom tendrils again. I just assumed you were whipping up a new recipe tonight.

I am actually. Mushroom, burger, and young. There you go. There you go. It is mushroom time, certainly. It is also mailbag time today. But before we dive into your wonderful emails, some quick programming reminders. The Midnight Boys. Have a super fun episode waiting for you on the feed from this week. A debate

about the greatest comic book hero of all time. It was described to us right after they finished wrapping as a House of R-esque length. Mm-hmm.

So you've got a couple hours of fun waiting for you there. The guys will, of course, be back with you next Wednesday. Joe and I will be back with you next Friday for a Mando prep watch list episode. We're going to be one month out-ish from season three at that point. So we're going to run through some of the episodes and story beats that you should familiarize yourselves with or brush up on and revisit before the new Mando season. And of course,

Be sure to check out our Last of Us coverage over on our sister feed, the Prestige TV podcast. Van and Charles have instant reactions for you every Sunday night. Joe and I are doing deep dives, which will be hitting your feeds on Tuesday evenings. Joe, how can everybody follow all of that? Oh my gosh, I'm so glad you asked me. First of all, why don't you just subscribe to the Ringiverse and Prestige TV podcast, like both of those feeds. It's a great idea.

Secondly, we're on social. I don't know if you've ever heard of social media, but we have and we're on it. So at ringerverse on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, et cetera, et cetera. Last but not least, very pertinent for a mailbag day. That's right. You can email us hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com.

And the other day I said you could even use that email for poker face questions that Rob and I are covering on the Prestige TV podcast feed because I keep insisting that that's a genre show. Anyway, hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com. We love all of your emails. We love the mushroom recipes. We love everything you send over. So thank you all so much. That's how you can keep on top of all the things we're doing.

And as you said, very apt today because it is a mailbag episode. We get to hear from all of you. We get to answer some of your questions. And we get to have Steve Allman, first of his name, help us with that. Steve. Hello. What voice will you be adopting for today's mailbag reading? Which character will you be playing as you share these questions with us? Have you decided?

You have three minutes of warning. Yeah. I was thinking either Barry Keown's... Oh, boy. Banshees of Inassurian. Wow. A heart-wrenching choice. There goes that dream. Tick accent. Barry Tick accent. Tanks. Or, you know, just a... It's either that, Optimus Prime, or just me. So... My goodness. What about just Steve? Just Steve? Okay. No just about it. I think we should go for the Banshees one, but sure. I'll take just Steve. Okay.

like alienate all of Ireland. It's not you, Steve. It's like all of America's tendencies to do an Irish accent. That's fair. That's entirely fair. Yeah. If you want to sneak in some Optimus Prime at some point, though, you feel free, buddy. You do you. Okay. All right, Steve, let's just get right to it. We have so many good ones today. What's up first? Well, I want to first praise the organization of these questions from Joanna because the category for this question is origin story. And the question reads from Wendy.

What's the Mal and Jo origin story? Oh, I love this. Jo, do you want to go first? I was trying to think about how I first became aware of you as a cultural entity. And I think it's when you and Jay started guest appearing on The Watch, talking about Thrones. That's when I first was introduced to your work and your...

Massive brain. And yeah, and then I always just liked what you were doing. And then when you spun off into your own feed, you were covering... You and I were in the thick of it on Thrones, and you were often covering things that I liked. And then...

I was involved in this organization that was running Con of Thrones. This is a Game of Thrones convention. And like the first year we did it, I like messaged you and Jay to see if you wanted to come, but it was like complicated. But you guys came the second year. And so that's when we like first met face to face. That's my memory. What's your, what's your memory?

We should have structured this like an episode of The Affair where each of us had to do our complete recounting and we could see what was the same and see what we were doing differently. Oh my God, you're definitely dumb. Dramatic lighting. Wow. Thank you. That means one day I'll be dancing on a moor in Montauk. And then playing Prince Charles. Trying to sling $75 chowder.

It was a dark and stormy night when Joanna's byline first crept across my screen. No, I just have long loved Joe. That's the TLDR, long loved Joe. I used to routinely and passionately read and consume Joe's Game of Thrones coverage back in the Vanity Fair days. And I've told Joe this before, but actually subscribed to...

VF specifically so that I could read everything Joe wrote because the volume was so ample. And I was like, how is, how has Joanna Robinson generated seven blog posts on a Sunday evening? This is extraordinary. I can't run out of my articles. I have the tote bag to prove it. And as Joe said, got to meet Joe in person and got to meet our, our pal Kim got to meet the, the, the storm of spoilers crew. Um,

Now the Trial by Content crew, Neil and Dave as well, at Con of Thrones in 2018 was the first time we met in person. Jason and I were there for Binge. We all got to hang out in Bond to get to know each other a bit. It was just a delight. We got to hang out again at Con of Thrones in 2019, which was a blast. You popped down to LA. We went to dinner. We started texting.

This does sound like the affair. We talked about garlic knots. And then I was really thinking about this and I was trying to retrace the steps. And in the early COVID days, because you were doing, the Storm Crew was doing a Lost rewatch. Yeah. And you asked me, you texted me and asked if I would jump on for an episode with you. We're both very passionate. Juliet and...

Sawyer fans, and you asked me to join you for a Juliet episode, not in Portland. And that was our first time podcasting together. Yes.

And there was no looking back. No looking back. I've always loved your writing, your potting, your general genius. And, you know, honestly, like never felt like I had like fully processed a story or the conversation around a story until I got to hear your insights. And have always really loved that. I felt like we had a very like simultaneously complimentary conversation.

to talking about stories because we in some ways look at them differently and have like a different lens and perspective, but then also a very synergistic approach the way we love a source text. We love to apply that like liquid analysis to the way we're talking about mainstream pop culture, etc.,

And I think the real thing that we would be remiss not to mention when we identified a bond was the Jorah Mormont sister wife phase of our journey. Yeah. People were like constantly tagging us on Twitter together. A lot of the same fictional crushes. Yeah.

Yeah, the Jordan Mormont sister-wife bit was really good. No, and like, at the second, it was the second Con of Thrones in 2019 and I remember where we were sitting when like, I don't know, everyone else had like left and you were like, hey, Joanna, like, would you ever want to come work at the Ringer? Like, I'm serious. And I thought you were kidding and then you were like, I'm serious. And I was like, no, I don't know anything about sports. And you were like, that doesn't matter. And it took like a couple years for you to convince me that that really didn't matter and it would be okay. Um,

And yet I started today's Zoom by asking you about Brock Purdy and the 49ers. I mean, I really appreciate that you keep trying and you keep like dangling like juicy soap opera stories associated with sports to try to get me into it. We got like, per your comment about our synergistic approach, we got a really, we're not reading it out, but we got a really nice email from this guy named Steve, not Steve Allman, about like, it's also kind of an origin story question, but it had all these like

really like I felt like Steve so sweet had been like reading our diaries or whatever it was just really nice about like the way that we work together so and I'm thrilled I'm just like so happy to be here with you and like yeah the rest is history and with Steve all men are Steve yeah are Steve same pal I've always wanted to

work with you, as you know. And I just can think of literally countless moments over the years where we would say, man,

look at this amazing thing Joe did. Wouldn't it be amazing if Joe worked here? And now you do. It's fucking great. I remember being at Connath Rose 2018 and watching you and Jay do like a social media post where you like pretended like you were racing Joe Dempsey in like the room where we were having breakfast. Like you're doing like a Gendry running bit. And I was like, the ringer looks like fun. It looks like really fun to work there. Gotta get back to Eastwatch. Yeah.

It's like everyone else is eating eggs, and you and Jay and Joe Dempsey were filming a TikTok essentially before TikTok. It was great. I'm not sure I have the cardiovascular fortitude or hamstring strength for too many social videos of that exact form, but that was fun. That was fun. Really cute. Just...

Love talking about stories with you, bud. It's been so fun. Like you, you came on a couple different episodes in the early ringer verse days. I was just like, what if this could be every day? I think it could be every day. The last podcast was really good, but I feel like that black widow podcast is really like where I was like, I can really work with Mallory all the time. It just felt right. It really did. Just, it was one of those like, man,

I want to work with people who make me smarter and happier and who make me want to be my very best every day. And I was like, Joe is that person. Let's go make a pod together. And here we are talking about our origin story and shopping it to Showtime so that they could bring back the...

Oh my God. Double feature with like on a Sunday night, yellow jackets and then the Mal and Joe origin story, which is just us like reading articles and listening to podcasts that the other ones have done. Wonderful. It's wonderful.

Steve, what was your origin story with both of us? When did you realize that you wanted to make podcasts with us? Literally, this is going to sound weird. I've told Joanna this before, but way, way, way, way, way back in the year 2016, when I was just an overnight radio assistant in Chicago, I was listening intently to the ones who knock podcasts, not knowing that I would ever run into Joanna or David Chen because those were just like the incredible erudite, smart guys

podcasters that I would just listen to intently. And when I heard that we would be doing a pod with Joanna, I barely remembered the fact that that was the same Joanna that comes back and I get to work with her. And that was incredible. And I had heard about, honestly, I'd heard about binge mode before I'd even heard of the ringer and knowing how ubiquitous you guys were with the Thrones community was like kind of almost bigger than any sort of like media or

I had ever even seen before. And seeing little bits of your top of the thrones back in the day, it was like awe-inspiring. And then when I got the chance to work at the Ringer, I was like, oh my God, like I get to do cool stuff with all of these people and like make a spot with these guys. Like this is the best. It's the absolute best. Steve, do you know that you were like instrumental into me deciding to come to the Ringer? I did not know this. Okay. Big part of the pitch. Yeah.

I was on a, we were in the Zoom waiting room at the Loki junket. Yes, I remember seeing you there. Yeah, and you were on there. And I like, I do this like weird Snoopy thing on a, like in the waiting room on a Zoom call at a junket. Is this interesting for a podcast? Who knows? But in a waiting room, like everyone has their name and usually their outlet as their display name on the Zoom call. So I will usually like mouse over people's like tiles to be like, who's that? Who's that? You know, like I'm curious who's here.

Can I put a face to a name, et cetera? And you were there with like Alan, right? I was there with Charles. Oh, Charles. Yeah, yeah. You and Charles were there. And I was like, wait, there are two people from the ringer here? And then that's when I realized, and then I looked you up and I was like, oh, he's a producer. I was like, Charles gets a producer?

on a Zoom call? A Zoom junket call? Like, never in my life have I had a producer on a Zoom junket call. Are you kidding me? And so, I told Mallory that and she's like, if you come to the ringer, Steve will be on all the calls with you. And I was,

I have yet to be invited to a succession interview because I have yet to talk to Brian Cox or Sarah Snook. So, you know. Listen, I was just talking about the succession junket yesterday. So, listen. Let's go. Let's do it. Put a face to a name. What beautiful memories. This is fun. Now I'm trying to remember the first pot I ever recorded with you, Steve, and I'm pretty sure it was an ice cream taste test. No, it was exactly that. You were taking over for...

for House of Carbs and it was you and Juliette. You were doing a Jenny's Ice Cream tasting. Everybody else in the office was very mad because I had to put those in the freezer and they're like, who is that for? And it's like, nobody here. Not you. You can't touch them. What a delicious day in the old PS1 at Sunset Gala. I was so mad that he couldn't have any of the ice cream. He got some eventually. Eventually.

Okay. What a delightful trip down memory lane. I love you both so much. This is a lovely, heartening experience. And I think it's just, you're both wonderful. Arjuna, we didn't say anything nice about you, but you're also, you're here and you're great. Arjuna, you're a delight. Love you too. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. You know, for me, fitness has always been about finding that groove, whether it's hitting the pavement outside, which I've been a lot of, or dialing up a sweat session indoors.

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or the Peloton app. It's like having your own personal coach with you or right at home in your living room. Call yourself a runner with Peloton at onepeloton.com slash running. Steve, what's our second question? All right. Our second question is from Peter and he says, would you please tell us about some of the non-genre stories that you love?

In your last episode, you mentioned Ethan Fromm and White Noise. So I know you've got some good stuff in the bag, but how about any kids' books or middle readers? Mallory once mentioned that Fairyland books were one of her favorites. Or any genre books that you think that might be generally overlooked? I'm curious about the stories that you don't normally hear about or talk about on the pod and that make you happy. Wow. Well, I know who I want to hear from right now, and it's the former bookseller. Okay.

And current book enthusiast, Joanna Robinson. I'm so excited. I'm so excited by how many... We had so many book recommendation questions. It makes me really, really happy. We decided to sort of like answer one for each of these categories. So like a non-genre book, a middle reader book, an overlooked genre book.

but we might smuggle some other things in there because it's us. I found this exercise to be nearly impossible. I'll just spoil that right now. This will be the hardest one for me today. Great. So starting in the non-genre category, I would like to nominate a book called The Unchangeable Spots of Leopards by Christopher Jansma. The Unchangeable... We'll probably have a... Steve, can we put a list of all the book recos in the notes for the episode or something like that? Okay. Yeah.

The Unchangeable Spots of Leopards is just like one of my very favorite, just like a novel novel that I've ever read. Chris Jansma, this was a debut novel that he wrote. And it was like...

I met Chris. He came to do a book reading at a bookstore that I worked at for this book. And he came on the night of the Justified series finale. And it came out that we were like both huge Justified fans. And we were both like, we're stressed out that we're here and not watching the Justified finale. And so that was like a whole thing. So like one of my copies is inscribed from him and it's like has something about Ray Lynn in it or whatever, but yeah.

That bonding with Chris aside, this book is super good. It's about... It reminds me a lot of Gatsby in the best way. And it's just about a narrator and his two most important friends and his life story. It's a story about a guy. You know what I mean? Just one of those stories about a guy that's so well-written and the language is so evocative and you just get sucked in and won over. And I just absolutely love it. So no superpowers.

No magic, just a guy. And then here's my first smuggle. I'm also just going to slide into the same category. Daisy Jones on the Six by Taylor Jenkins Reid. A timely pick. Yeah, on everyone's mind because Amazon is dropping the adaptation of it in March. This is one of the best books I've ever read. And I'm going to make a bid for the audio book, which is a full cast recording that has Judy Greer, Jennifer Beals,

pablo schreiber benjamin bratt like incredible cast reading and it's uh it's about it's a fictionalized version of um basically like fleawood mac making the rumors album it's about a fictional band but it's heavily influenced by all the messy drama that it went into making rumors and it's uh it's like a

It's a woman writing a... Like, interviewing people about it. And they all have unreliable sort of memories about what happened, different versions of the story. So that's my non-genre. Do you want to do your non-genre before we move on? Sure. I... Jo, I had no idea where to even begin with this. I was like, should I just...

I mean, even for my Jane Austen, like, I don't know where to begin here. Yeah, yeah. I truly have no idea where to begin. Should we talk about authors we like? What's your favorite Jane Austen? Depends on my mood. Depends on where I am in my life when I revisit it. One of my all-time favorite life experiences was taking a Jane Austen class.

In college at Syracuse. It was Jane Austen and her contacts and ours. So the first half of the semester, we read all of the Jane Austen books and stories and then...

went to England for spring break. I was like, wait, you told me this and you went to England and I was so jealous. Yeah. You know, uh, the, the, a few days at bath, a day in Portsmouth, a few days in London, just a like formative life experience. Just taking the healing waters, the healing waters of bath. Exactly. Ran into James Purfoy on the street, uh, outside of a bun shop and bath. And he was, you never told me that. James,

Jane Austen adaptation thing you could do. It's truly like an all-time life highlight. It was wonderful. Outside a bun shop? Outside of a bun shop. And then the second half of the class was the R context, you know, modern adaptations of those tales. What's my favorite? I mean, I love Persuasion. It's my favorite. There we go. Look at that. Yeah.

It's like the most emotionally poignant. Someone in one of the emails we got or something like that, someone was talking about how we were like emotional terrorists. And I was like, not intentionally, but I think we just like a really emotional story. And I think persuasion is the most emotional. Speaking of emotional stories, I wanted to, one of the things I was considering calling out here, but this is like, I was just thinking of my favorite books and some of them are

genre adjacent. Even if they're not outright genre stories that I didn't know whether that made them eligible or ineligible. It's like, should I just talk about how much I love Vonnegut and Philip Roth for five minutes? Like I begin, I will say, I've definitely mentioned this on Ringer Paws before, but if I had to pick just one book,

The Great American Novel by Philip Roth is probably my number one. Oh, that's so interesting. Okay, I've never read it, so now I must read it to understand you better. I've read some Roth, but I haven't read that one. Okay. Extraordinary. It is certainly not one of his most famous. It's something that my dad recommended to me in, I think I was in 10th grade. It's broadly speaking about the communist plot to infiltrate America through baseball.

Great, great. Love this. There's an entire chapter that is devoted to alliteration. It's an extensive examination of language and myth and the way that myth permeates and shapes society. It's really excellent. I love it. I was wondering if I could pick...

Never Let Me Go, which we talked about briefly last week, actually, on another pod. Because I love Ishiguro. He's one of my absolute favorites. But I don't know if I can count that as non-genre. Similarly, I was like, can I pick Cavalier and Clay? I love Michael Chabon, but that's a story about writing comic books. So for non-genre, I don't know. Should we talk about Sally Rooney for a minute? If we're looking at the contemporary lens? Normal people? All-timer.

Yeah. Alzheimer. So I did not answer the question. I just named multiple authors. No, you did a great job. And that's where I'm going with it. I think the Philip Roth. Yeah, the Philip Roth is your rank. Okay. It's the best. Middle reader is our next prompt here. And this is easy for me only because, again, I worked in bookstores for a decade. Define the age group here that middle reader. Exactly. So it's usually... There's early readers...

elementary, middle reader, YA is usually how it's done. So middle reader is like your middle schoolers, like maybe up to like 13, you know, thereabouts. Like 8 to 12, 9 to 13, 8 to 13 kind of a range. Yeah, something like that. And like, again, it's easy for me because I can just like remember where I used to shelve books. Like, it's not as easy for people who haven't shelved books to distinguish between the sections, but I'm like, okay, that goes to middle reader. Um,

So I picked a book that actually recently talked to Mallory about book series Dealing with Dragons by Patricia Redd. It's W-R-E-D-E, Dealing with Dragons. And it's a series one of four. And it's about a princess who does not want to be a princess. So she runs away from the castle and goes to live with dragons. Basically becomes like the secretary and assistant to the king of the dragons. And.

And there's like four books and it's sort of like her evolution through this kingdom. And it's just got, it's filled with all of these really fun stories

um, like, uh, fairy tales are woven in, in a way where they like show up, but they're slightly twisted and stuff like that. And so it's, um, you'll recognize like rumble still skin, but it's a little different or all these various things or, or Jack and the beanstalk, but it's a little different. And, um, that's really fun. And I was, I was talking to my nephew who just turned 12 the other day and he's reading the, uh, Christopher Paolini books, the air grown books. And, um,

I asked him if he had read Enchanted Chronicles. It's called the Enchanted Chronicles series, Patricia Red Books. And he was like, yeah, they're the best. And I was like, yes. Because like you might think that they're just for girls, but I don't think they are. And yeah, so that's my, that's a middle reader that like, if you know, you know, but it's not like flying off the shelves or anything like that. How about you, Mallory? Okay. First of all, before I give my pick, let me say this.

You're all listening to this podcast right now. You just heard Joanna say that she was talking to me about this recently. But that's not what happened. Here's what happened. Joanna gave me the nicest gift that anyone has ever given me in my entire life, and I wept in her car and then in her arms. She made me a little, like a wooden crate filled with... I'm starting to cry. I'm starting to cry.

These stories from her youth and her life that she loved and that shaped something fundamentally about how she thinks about fantasy and stories and sharing stories with other people that she knew I hadn't read and thought I would enjoy. And when she gave it to me, she said, I know that you've talked before about the little bookshelf that your dad made you and filled with books that he wanted you to read one day and how much that meant to you. And...

I thought this would be a nice thing. And it was so nice and so sweet and so wonderful. So I can't wait to read those stories. But with the caveat that, and I love you, Mallory, but with the caveat that no pressure, if it takes you a decade to read them, I'm not going to, I'm not going to Ben Lindbergh in the name of the wind. Yeah, exactly. Of Lindbergh's. Yeah. So no rational pressure. But yeah,

I think this will come up in a later question, but it only took me one week recently to act on another colleague's recommendation. So I'm showing some progress in my life, which is great. The middle reader thing is tough because I love, as you know, YA fiction. Love children's literature.

Love middle readers, but I sort of think of everything as just one thing. I don't really think of it necessarily divided by age group that way. And I think part of that is because, as I've shared before in other pods, I came to reading really late. I was a really late bloomer as a reader when I was a kid. And so a lot of the stories that I might have read

and fallen into on my own at a younger age, I actually experienced like a little later. And high school was really like, I mean, certainly in middle school, that was when fifth grade was when I read The Hobbit and middle school was when I read Lord of the Rings. And that was like a real pivot point in my life as a reader. But the true like seismic shift for me and my relationship to reading happened in high school.

You know, you get into the high school English classes and you're reading To Kill a Mockingbird and you're reading Ethan Fromme and you're reading Gatsby and you're reading Lord of the Flies. And like, it just completely like, you know, opens your mind and eyes and heart to a new reality. And late high school is when I started reading Harry and everything like that. So I just, I went back and like discovered so many things.

middle reader books when I had exited the middle reader phase. So I don't even know if I know what a middle reader book is with that caveat issued.

It's a tough one because like and also like different stores like, you know, I've been in stores that that show Harry Potter and Middle Reader and I've been in stores that show Harry Potter and Elementary. So the boundaries are like a little. Yeah, that's that's the thing. Like I was thinking, OK, I was thinking of books I read early in high school and whether they might be eligible. And I was thinking of a book like A Separate Piece, which was one of the really the one of the books early in middle school and high school. I think I read that in ninth grade that.

unlocked something for me and became like a foundational text in my youth. And I was trying to think how old were the kids in the class in sideways when they're reading passages from a separate piece? What age group was that? I'm going with not a, not a, not a fringe pick here, a headliner, an all timer, a Pantheon pick. That's a middle reader book, I would say, but

is really right for you at any time in your life. And that's one of the great things about it. It's a shared favorite, I think, of ours, Jo. Certainly a shared favorite between us and Sawyer, one of our other favorites. Oh. Watership Down. Yeah. Richard Adams. This is, I think, the perfect time in your life to read Watership Down for the first time.

When you're growing up. I cried a lot when I read Watership Down. Deeply sad. Deeply, deeply, deeply sad. When I closed Watership Down, I won't get into plot details and spoilers, but I was anchored to the seat that I was in for hours after just sobbing. It was a wreck. But it is such an archetypal tale in the world building world

You're in a world, a story of rabbits in a world of rabbits is so fully realized and engrossing and the way that they have like their own stories and their own Proverbs and their own language and their own culture. It's just a really like immersive and fully realized fictional universe and

And it is deeply sad and moving, but also inspiring and thought provoking. And I think it's a wonderful thing to revisit when you're older, but also a really enlightening and energizing and moving experience when you're a young person.

making your way through the world. So that's my pick. A couple of classics. Yeah. Water Ship Town's a great pick. Great one. Um, okay. Last but not least, it's a sort of like what overlooked genre, genre stories that are generally overlooked. Um, so my pick here is another series. Um, it's a trilogy. No, actually I think there are four now. Um,

It's the Graceling series. Graceling... Aren't these books beautiful? Graceling, Fire, Bitter Blue, and I can't remember the name of the fourth one that came out a couple years ago, but by Kristen Cashore. Kristen spelled K-R-I-S-T-I-N, Cashore with a C. And the Graceling books are...

Sort of, if you've read the Shadow and Bone books by Leigh Bardugo, that idea that there's, like, people who are gifted with certain abilities at birth. And in the Graceling world, they are called Gracelings, and they have two different colored eyes. But basically, we're focused on a, like, in the first book...

And each one has a kind of different protagonist. Like, the protagonist of another book becomes sort of like a side character in the ensuing books and stuff like that. But Katza is the name of the protagonist of the first book. And what unfolds essentially in the first book is palace intrigue. Conspiracy, palaces, warring kingdoms, blah, blah, blah. But with this, you know, basically...

strain of superheroes. Like these various people who are gifted in some way or not running around. And our main character discovers that she doesn't really know the family and the kingdom that she grew up in the way that she thought she did, which is always a rude awakening trope, which I always kind of like. So yeah, Kristen, the Graceling series. Yeah, really, really good. I've never once...

put that book in someone's hands and had them not come back to buy the next one. Like that's, it's a really good series. Yeah. I am once again, I think ignoring the spirit of the prompt and interpreting it in the way that I see fit. Do, do, do you? Because, okay. I'm about to mention one of the true titans of the fantasy stories. And so it's,

I think objectively would seem absurd to say that this person and this person's works are overlooked because this is one of the most celebrated and acclaimed storytellers literally of all time. With that caveat issued, I was thinking about like modern day consumption and conversation. And even like on this pod, have we ever mentioned or talked about

Ursula Le Guin. No. And like not wanting to allow we the people of Earth and lovers of stories. Yes. Get to a point where we are like in any way allowing Ursula's body of work to recede from conversation and appreciation. So I wanted to throw that out there. Like, do we talk enough collectively about Wizard of Earthsea?

One of my stepmom's all-time favorites, by the way. Do we talk enough about the left hand of darkness? Do we talk enough about the dispossessed? So I wanted to throw that out there more as like a prompt because I think there were like a lot of really wonderful appreciations and revisitations a few years ago after her death. But when was the last time you had a conversation with someone about dispossessed?

I want to do it more. People don't talk to each other about Le Guin. It's so funny. This is going to sound really dumb, but I was rewatching a bad movie, which I do sometimes just to like, how did this go so wrong? It's a bad adaptation of a book I like, which is the Jane Austen Book Club. Jane Austen Book Club is a pretty good book written by a UC Davis professor, but a pretty bad, dumb movie.

However, Hugh Dancy is in that movie as like a young man who's reading Jane Austen for the first time, but he keeps trying to get his love interest to read Ursula Le Guin. And he talks the whole movie about how good Ursula Le Guin is and how amazing her books are. And then eventually like his love interest reads them. And then she's like, oh, I love you because these books are great. Like that's pretty cool. But, um, so I was just listening to Hugh Dancy talking about Ursula Le Guin for a really long time. But, um,

Out in the wild? No, people are not talking enough about Ursula. There needs to be, I think, like some adaptations, right? To get people to talk about it. We'll have an adaptation question later. Yeah. I almost chose that spot to broach this for that exact reason because I agree. And it is what got me thinking about it. Like, why are we not making movies and TV shows based off of these books? I don't understand. Yeah, I don't understand.

Great, great books. Steve, of all the books we mentioned, which one are you most likely to read? Ursula Le Guin, because I've heard many, many, many, many, many people talk about it. And then knowing that you guys are like, we don't talk enough about this. I'm like, okay, that's going on the Libby app right now. Left Hand of Darkness, Lathe of Heaven. What would you suggest that he start with? I don't know why I just made like a ghoul sound for 30 seconds. Zombies!

um funny enough that's what happens when i open the libby app that's a great question left hand of darkness is a good starting point okay i think if my stepmom debbie one of the all-time greats in the history of the world were here she would point you toward earth sea she loves she loves earth sea

Okay. Shout out, Debbie. A one of one. It's going on my Steve Rogers list. Do you keep it in a notepad that you like fill out by hand? Yes. And then it's Beatles question mark. Berlin Wall. Berlin Wall down, up and down. Up and down. Oh my God. I love it. Okay. Speaking of great reads, we have another related question.

Here at number three, what do we got, Steve? This is from Becca. I just finished the wonderful book Tomorrow, Tomorrow, and Tomorrow and immediately wanted to know two things. Have you ever read it? And hearing your thoughts on this love letter to stories, video games, friendship would complete my experience in Sadie and Sam's world. What other books have been tickling your nerdy brain sensors lately? Any cozy stories you'd recommend to the Ringerverse?

as we head into the second half of winter. And I will be getting my hands on Lone Wolf and Cubs soon, she adds. Wonderful. Excellent. We were literally just talking about this book in a different ring of words. Yeah. And then my sister brought it up to me earlier this week. She just read it. Um,

We have both. You read it. This is the book you were teasing that you followed up on or you're reading it. I am reading it, literally reading this right now. I started it on Sunday and this was the one that I was recommended. Juliette Lipman.

Our pal and colleague texted me after she recently read this and recommended it, said that she loved it, thought that I would really enjoy it. And I texted my book club, which my... A group of five of us college roommates, we started doing a Zoom book club over the pandemic and have been maintaining it. We try to do it like once every six weeks or so, we'll catch up on a book that we've read together in tandem. And so I was like...

guys, I got this great recommendation for this book. I've been doing some Googling. Everyone's raving about it. It's on a lot of best of the year lists from last year. And one of my book club mates and best pals, Suzanne, was like, this was my favorite book of last year. I loved it. I was like,

thanks for suggesting it to book club, Suzanne. And then another cherished pal and book club member, Allison was like, she did. And then took a screenshot of the group chat and sent it to me. And I was like, this is not a, not how I thought this conversation was going, but I will now enjoy this on my own. And I'm four chapters in. So I've read part one and it is,

delightful and I love it and I am highlighting so many lines about friendship and love and yearning and creation and I cannot wait to finish it. It is really gripping me early. I'm very early into it. I'm about like maybe 15% or so in, but it's been an absolute treat so far. It is worth noting that to be good at something is not quite the same as loving it. That's one of the early quotes that really hit me hard.

Hit me hard. I read this and really, really liked it. Gabrielle Zevin, I think that's how you pronounce her name, the author, wrote The Story Life of A.J. Fickrey. It was a 2014 book that I really, really liked. That was a book that was really funny because it was like, it became this beloved book of indie booksellers and also publicists because it's about...

um, an indie bookstore and a bookseller and also a publisher rep and their love story. And it's basically, it's basically a retelling of Silas Marner, but, but being able to like compare those two books, which have very different, like sort of settings and arcs helps me understand like what it emotionally honest writer, um, she is. And this, I mean, this book, which I really liked reminded me a lot of, um,

the episode of if people watch season one of mythic quest, dark, quiet death, which is one of the best episodes of television ever about to like video game creators and like how their trajectory over the life of the video game and their, and snapshots of their relationships over the years through that. And it's sort of like, I was like, Oh, this is like one of the best episodes of television I've ever seen. Um, and I just had, I had a really, really good time with it. It's funny. I was talking to my sister who just read it, um, about the fact that I was like looking, uh,

I was spending time in Venice Beach when I was down in LA recently. And she was like, oh, did you see any video? You know, she was just like, I just read a book set in Venice Beach tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow. I was like, oh yeah. Yeah. So delightful book. And I can't wait to hear what you think of it when you finish it, Mel.

I'm really excited to keep going. I'll keep you posted on my progress. I think I'll tear through it. I'll be finished before long. What other, for the other books that have tickled our nerdy brain sensors lately? Nerdy book tickling. For some recent nerdy book tickling, what do you got? Yeah. Okay. So, okay. Number one, so excited. People maybe have probably read this if they're listening to this, but All the Birds in the Sky, written by Charlie Jane Anders, is a book that's

Charlie Jane has written it. People might know Charlie Jane is one of the founding creators of io9, legendary Bay Area author, writers of drinks series, et cetera. This came out in 2016, was the best book that I read that year. And I love this book because, I mean, it's set in the Bay Area, but it is about a young witch and like a tech...

a young boy who's like a tech genius. And so it's like a, this really fascinating blend of magic, fantasy, and tech sci-fi. Sounds like Thor and Jane. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I like that. And it's just like, it's a clashing, it's almost like a clashing of genres, but it's just this like very beautiful, I wouldn't even call it a love story, but you can if you want, but just sort of like an adventure story. It's really sucked me in. I absolutely loved it. You know when like, I mean, I'm not like,

Charlie and I are acquaintances. We're not like friends, but like, you know, like acquaintance of yours or a friend of yours has like written a book and they put it in your hand and you're like, oh no, what if this is bad? But this book is so good. And I was like massively relieved. Um,

And then, oh, I want to mention Madeline Miller's Circe. Did you read Circe or Song of Achilles? Either the Madeline Miller books. Okay. Song of Achilles is like her most super popular one, which is a retelling of Achilles, especially through the lens of his relationship with Patroclus. But, um,

Cersei, which came out in 2018, is a retelling of the story of Cersei, the witch or goddess that Odysseus meets on the island. You may know her from Turning Men Into Pigs, but have you heard her real story? And it is so... Madeline Miller's retelling of these mythos stories really tickles the brain in terms of deconstructing what a story is...

The story you've heard versus what the story could be, what the hitting layers are beneath the story. And I was just talking to our pal Kim Renfro about Circe. She loves Madeline Miller. And she was like, I think Circe, the message of Circe is like, how is one a human? And I'm like, yeah, that's how profound a story like this is. A story about a goddess immortal of...

living among or interacting with humans, watching men come and go over the ages, all this sort of stuff like that. It's just like, and her writing is so, so incredible. So Madeline Miller, Circe. And then lastly, I'm going to recommend Susanna Clark's Piranesi. Susanna Clark, people know from Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell.

And the Ladies of Grace Adieu. But Piranesi 2021 came out and I read this on a friend's recommendation and it was like, it's one of those books where you're like, what is going on though? Where you're just confused for a lot of it, but like vibing and going with it. And it's sort of, it's about...

your narrator doesn't really know what's going on and is trying to construct together. They find themselves in this place with all these statues and stairs and levels and the water's rising and they don't know what's going on. And you're with them on this journey of trying to piece together like where exactly they are and who exactly they are and what's happening. And I read it in like a day and everyone I know has like read it in a day. So pure and easy.

Susanna Clark. Susanna Clark is an unbelievable brain. Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell rewrote my synapses. How about you? In order to attempt to contain my smuggle tendencies and limit this in some way, because I was thinking about my Q's book club from the Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow portion of this question, just decided to share...

The last few books that we've read and enjoyed in our book club, which has been a really fun thing to share with friends who have been in my life now for the better part of two decades and who I cherish and adore. So first thing I wanted to mention, which is the book that we're reading right now, Project Hail Mary, Andy Weir. And it is, I just finished this about five days ago, a week ago.

I loved this. I tore through this and I was learning things. There's obviously a lot of like,

If you're thinking soft sci-fi, hard sci-fi, a lot of hard sci-fi, a lot of hard sci-fi in Andy Weir's writing with a lot of math, a lot of science, a lot of information about space. When I was a kid, I don't know if I've ever told you this show, I was obsessed with space. I was a have a telescope in my room kid. No. And I was riveted reading this. But also, I will say very little about the actual plot because I don't want to spoil anything. I will just say broadly that

What can I even say here? There is a character who embedded inside of my heart in a way that I think will be lasting. That is what I will say. And it was such a funny book. I was in stitches so many times. And it's a really interesting examination of language and communication and shared tendencies and unique tendencies. And I just really enjoyed it and had a blast reading it. Shout out, Rocky.

You're a Hall of Famer. A couple of the recent Cuse Book Club reads. We recently read, this was a few months ago, The House on the Cerulean Sea by T.J. Klune, which my book club quite enjoyed. And actually one of my pals in the book club then immediately recommended Under the Whispering Door as another read because the friends in this group really just loved this so much. Theodore, what's your favorite book?

What a special little fellow Theodore is. Just love Theodore and miss him dearly. Couple things that have been mentioned on Ringiverse Pods before, because these are actually two books that our beloved pal and colleague Zach Cram originally recommended to me. One of them, Joe, I know is something that you love and adore and you've had many chats on pods about as well. This is how you lose the time more. If you're interested in multiversal storytelling, if you're interested in...

unique structural approaches to crafting a tail and spinning a yarn. If you're interested in the collaborative process between multiple people, I cannot recommend this highly enough. I thought it was extraordinary and some of the most beautiful lines in recent reading memory for me. And then The Once and Future Witches, Alex E. Harrow. Have you read that show? No. I think you would really like it. Okay. Really, really, really like it. I like the title. Yeah.

Yes. And it's kind of like, it's all right there in the title. There's once for witches and then there are going to be again. It's great. It's about...

female friendship. It's about sisterhood. It's about challenging convention and society. It's about making room for magic in your life. It is really, really, really wonderful and beautifully written. I highly recommend it. And I'm really eager to check out more of Alex Harrow's writing after reading that. Some of our other recent book club reads are things we've talked about before. I've mentioned that Station Eleven was a book club read before the series came out. That was just a...

Just an exceptional. I mean, we talk about Station Eleven all the time, but if you haven't read it, just treat yourself. I was listening to the score this morning and I was like, when will I stop being in a mood to think or talk about Station Eleven? Maybe never. Okay. I'm up next for book club. It's my pick next. So I will be selecting Clara and the Sun.

That'll be our next pick, which I, again, I've mentioned already on this pod that Ishiguro is one of my absolute favorites. And I just simply cannot wait to read this. I will be very curious. I read it when it came. I will be very curious to hear what you think about it. I can't wait. I love Ishiguro. Yeah. Same. Wonderful.

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Okay. All right, number four. This is from Shania and Nick. This is for Joanna. It reads, what is your favorite episode of Doctor Who? And in case it's not the same answer, what episode are you most excited to rewatch with Mallory? What is the pod's plans for Doctor Who content throughout the 60th anniversary year?

I think Joanna mentioned this, but will you be doing something about that? Yes. Okay. So we're so excited for this. Thank you. Those were two different questions that I smooshed into one Doctor Who question. But we got a lot of Doctor Who questions. So Mallory and I, at the very least, perhaps we'll reopen more people, but Mallory and I, at the very least, are going to be recording...

Four episodes over the year leading up to the November 60th anniversary special where David Tennant is coming back to Doctor Who. Our first episode is in March.

I think we decided the last week of March is when we were doing it. And the first episode is going to cover the first season of the reboot starring Christopher Eccleston. So we'll talk a little bit about Doctor Who long history in that podcast, but you don't need to... You can go back and rewatch everything. But I think...

One of the reasons I wanted to do this is like people who haven't ever gotten a doctor who are always daunted by decades of history. Where do I start? How do I do this?

So, um, I've put together a watch list for Mallory. It will probably, I haven't nailed this down with Erica, but it will probably live on the ringer.com. What a great website in some form or another. So you can see like, you can watch every episode or I have opinions on which are skippable and which aren't and stuff like that. So, um,

and notable guest stars and all that sort of stuff. So basically you only have to watch one season of television, which is only, I think 10 episodes, maybe 12, 12. I think it's 12, 12 episodes by the end of March. And I believe in all of you that you can do that if you haven't, but we're going to talk about Christopher Eccleston, Malekith. Malekith. Yeah. Yeah. Um, for that. And then we're going to be moving in. So then episode two, we're going to be doing a couple of David Tennant seasons, um,

His first and second season. I cannot wait. Episode three, we're going to be doing David Tennant's final full season. And then he did a bunch of like goodbye specials. So that will be our third episode. And then the final one, we're going to be talking about Matt Smith, Peter Capaldi, Jodie Whittaker, et cetera. That...

Again, the syllabus will go up in terms of what you can watch or should skip or have to watch or whatever. But we're basically doing those episodes every two months. So we're going to do one in March, one in May, one in July, and one in September. And then it'll be time for the special. So this is all year of who is what we're doing. And Mal is excited. And I'm excited to share it with her. I'm really, really hyped. I'm probably going to begin my journey in a couple weeks.

And I can't wait to share this thing that you love with you. What's like one of the best feelings in the world when you love a thing and you get to introduce somebody who you enjoy talking to books or shows or movies. I just, seeing the part of this question, like what episode are you most excited to rewatch with Mal? It made me really happy and it made me think of like all the times of my life where I've

you know, like somebody who I adore and cherish who like hadn't read, but I'm thinking like, you know, years and years and years ago, the number of people who I would just like leave the first Harry Potter book on their desk or something. Right. Or in their dorm room or whatever the case may be. I remember like one pal of mine in particular who I really thought would enjoy Harry and

inscribing the inside cover of Sorcerer's Stone and just said, use it well. You know, putting the Dumbledore invisibility quote on there and feeling like I had torn out a piece of my own heart and presented it to him because it meant so much to me. And it's like, it's just such an amazing thing.

to get to introduce people to the stories that you cherish. So I cannot wait to share this with you. Did an episode come to mind when you read that question? I have, I always have, I have had the same answer for what's your favorite episode of Doctor Who for a really long time, which is an episode called Midnight.

And it's from David Tennant's final season. And it takes place all on a train. And it's a bunch of guest stars and David Tennant. And it's just such a perfectly taught, plotted hour of 45 minutes or whatever of television. I love train content. Yeah. But I don't think...

That's the one I'm most excited to watch with you because I think what will be exciting to watch with you is like some of the more emotional payoff episodes and all that sort of stuff. And so, and, and he, and his, he doesn't, his companion is not really in that episode. And like the doctor companion relationship is so important. Right.

So I might go with one that I just watched, which is a two-parter, Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead. It's the introduction of a character called River Song. And so, okay, can I just say really quickly, a lot of people are excited for us to watch Doctor Who. A lot of people have sent us emails about Doctor Who.

With love and respect, someone sent me an email being like, make sure that Mallory watches this episode of Doctor Who that Ian Glenn is in. And I was like, who do you think I am? Like, do you think there's any way on this planet? Frankly, how dare you doubt Joanna in this respect? I was so insulted.

that episode also has like one of the great antagonists, the Weeping Angels and River Song and Matt Smith and Ian Glenn is there. I was like, in what planet are we not watching this? It's a two-parter actually. In what planet are we not watching this? So, yeah, there's a Jorah Mormont episode of Doctor Who in your future. My God. I was already excited before I knew that. That's the Who plan. Your homework. The Chris Frackleston season by March. Is it homework if you're having a blast? Plenty of time, honestly. It's going to be great.

So hyped. Cannot wait. Speaking of things that we love. Yeah. What's the next question? I've got to share with people over the years. All right. This one is from Claire. For your mailbag episode, I'd love to hear your overall thoughts on His Dark Materials now that the series is over. More specifically, the role stories play in the land of the dead. I love the idea that telling stories is what restores humanity, individuality, and acts as a guiding force to salvation and freedom.

Given your love for stories, I thought of you both frequently and have been dying for your thoughts. Since the reason that I finished the third season was because Mallory told me she was going to finish the third season, I'm going to let Mallory take the chair on this one. Yeah, so...

We've mentioned His Dark Materials, the Philip Pullman books, a number of times over our pods. And I think our love for the books and Pullman's work is very well established. I watched the first season of the show in real time, and then I fell way behind. And when the third season, the final season, was ending in real time recently...

decided I wanted to catch up, got a Slack from our, our pal and colleague, Miles Suri, who was another huge has dark materials fan. That was specifically about the finale. And it was like, I need to hear your thoughts on the finale. When he gets the finale, it's okay. Okay. This is this, this miles notice the final push I needed to get back on track here. So I thought broadly and overall, um,

Joe, actually, I remember our Pizzeria Moza dinner with Kim long ago. The three of us were talking about his dark materials and saying that one of the things we hoped for most dearly was just that they would get to finish it. Because, of course, you know, the film adaptation is like a famous flop, right? So I'm glad that they got to go through that.

Compass, Subtle Knife, and Amber Spyglass. It was a very emotionally rewarding conclusion to the adaptation. I think that overall, start to finish, this was a mixed adaptation. So,

Some of the less successful elements in season one, pulling Will and many of the book two, Subtle Knife plot points into season one, I think really helped season one, but ultimately hurt season two. Because the Subtle Knife is my favorite book of the trilogy. And I was so looking forward to season two of the show. And I think that that was ultimately my least favorite of the three seasons. Same. And then more broadly...

The heavy handedness of everything about the prophecy in particular and the magisterium more broadly, like folks, if you had decided to play a drinking game every time they said Eve, you would not have seen the beautiful finale of the His Dark Materials adaptation because you would have died of alcohol poisoning long before then. But the more successful elements are.

Will and Lyra were just wonderful. Individually as characters and as performers and their relationship together. Pan, the truest 10 out of 10 no notes that we can add. What if we ever had like a Pan and Pabu spinoff? Just Pan and Pabu. I wouldn't survive it. It would be too much. We would have reached the limit of what my heart could handle. I thought that Mary was exceptional and underutilized. I wish we had gotten even more Mary. Some real great

Asriel vibes, even though some of the mythology-centric deployments of his characters were among the parts that I didn't like as much, but he was really all-in-one throughout this. Seeing the world, seeing these worlds that we've visited on the page so many times come to life, getting to see what the Malefa looked like, getting to see the Crossroads world, Sagaze, that was just really fun. And the final season had a few unbelievably emotionally wrenching sequences.

Pan and Lyra, obviously spoilers for His Dark Materials and the answer to this. Pan and Lyra parting in the underworld? In the Land of the Dead? I was fucking sobbing. Choke-sobbing. Sobbing. I thought that Mary sharing her story

Her history with Lyra and Will was just a gorgeous scene. One of my, it's a really beautiful passage in the book and was a beautiful and deeply moving sequence in the show. And then, I mean, of course, I think literally routinely in my life about Will and Lyra and their bench and seeing that in the finale was absolutely agonizing and fucking devastating. And I was like,

So that was my feeling. How about you, Joe?

Yeah, I mean, I had watched season one and season two as they aired, and I wasn't even sure I was going to do season three. But then again, Mallory told me what Miles told her. And I was like, well, the Will and Lyra stuff is good. And since the finale is going to be so Will and Lyra and their relationship focused, I could see how they might really nail that, even if I don't really love some of the other things that are going on in the series. So I watched the final season, and I sobbed through the finale. Yeah.

So it was worth it for that. Like that they really stuck the landing for that. There's just a lot of other stuff in between that I'm like, not great. I think Lin-Manuel Miranda is like really bad casting, like really like all time or bad casting as Lee scores me. But, and then, yeah. And in terms of the, the meaning of story, the meaning of story in the land of the dead, also Lyra Bellacqua, like Lyra's silver tongue, like Lyra is this like liar storyteller, um,

And again, Mary telling her story and like playing the serpent. Right. But again, taking that story and sort of flipping it on its head, playing the serpent is, in this case, is a good thing. And like how her story rather than like an apple is the temptation and all this sort of stuff like that. I do. I mean, these books were very, very special to me. So like I know a lot of people liked the TV series and I don't think it was bad, but it was like very much like a B for me.

But I wanted that like A plus feeling all the way through because the books are so special to me. So, yeah. The stretch in The Land of the Dead in the book about stories and sharing stories has some of the most gorgeous writing. I was flipping through it after reading this question.

Because it was true, said No Name. Because she spoke the truth. Because it was nourishing. Because it was feeding us. Because we couldn't help it. Because it was true. Because we had no idea that there was anything but wickedness. Because it brought us news of the world and the sun and the wind and the rain. Because it was true. I mean, unbelievable. I will say...

Love the story-centric nature of that stretch. We already talked about Pan and Lyra and their parting and the devastation. The one thing that I really missed in this episode, in this stretch of season three in the Land of the Dead sequence, when I think back to those chapters in the books...

Some of the most astoundingly beautiful writing and style and flair, but also some of the most animating ideas are in the stretch about Lyra and her death. And the idea of how you can think about and embrace death. And that was...

That was there a little bit, but not to the extent that I would have liked because that is just a remarkable stretch of the book. I'll read one more passage just because we fucking love these books so much. Please do. This is from Lyra and Her Death, a chapter in Amber Spyglass, the third book in the His Dark Materials trilogy.

Then came a voice that hadn't spoken before. From the depths of the bedcloths in the corner came a dry, cracked nasal tone. Not a woman's voice. Not a living voice. It was the voice of the grandmother's death. The only way you'll cross the lake and go to the land of the dead, he said. And he was leaning up on his elbow, pointing with a skinny finger at Lyra. It's not a woman's voice.

is with your own deaths. You must call up your own deaths. I have heard of people like you who keep their deaths at bay. You don't like them, and out of courtesy, they stay out of sight, but they're not far off. Whenever you turn your head, your deaths dodge behind you. Wherever you look, they hide. They can hide in a teacup or in a dewdrop or in a breath of wind.

Not like me and old Magda here, he said, and he pinched her withered cheek and she pushed his hand away. We live together in kindness and friendship. That's the answer. That's it. That's what you've got to do. Say welcome. Make friends. Be kind. Invite your deaths to come close to you and see what you can get them to agree to. And listen to you and your beautiful choked up voice read that passage. Like these...

I don't know why the show felt so inert in some of those moments, but it kind of did. For me, anyway. But I know a lot of people enjoyed it, and I'm glad they did. And again, we're really glad they got to finish it. It's all tied up, all this other stuff. We'll get some Book of Dust adaptations one day. We'll be back. We'll be back in Lyra's Oxford in this wonderful world. What's next, Steve? All right. From Lizzen, Joe.

Please, please, please speak on your thoughts regarding the finale of Willow. I'm going to keep this brief. Basically, like someone was asking us,

Like, basically, here's the thing. If I don't like something, I'm probably not going to cover it in depth. And that's the best way that you... I don't love shit-talking, kicking something. That's not something I'm fond of. And so if I'm covering it a lot, you know I like it. And if I'm not, it means I didn't really vibe with it. So, like, Van and I really tried. You know, you heard us. We both really, really wanted to love this series. And neither of us did. So that's why we didn't come back and sort of...

you know, close the loop on that one. I don't know the motivations of some of the decisions that happened around that show, but what it struck me as is like something I talk about a lot when I talk about musicals, which is like, you can't be afraid of the genre you're in. Like if you make a musical and you're like embarrassed to be making a musical, we can tell. And it almost felt like this is a fantasy show where they were just like not really fully comfortable making a fantasy show. And so like they modernized the

The language, there are a bunch of modern needle drops in there, stuff like that. And like, that can work. You know, like I love a Knight's Tale. Like, you know, a modern needle drop is not a deal breaker for me. But like, this just did not, did not go for me. There are some things, the penultimate episode, which is them out on open water, sort of dueling and prepping for the final showdown.

I did like that episode best of all. So I felt like it got progressively better. But I hated the finale, honestly. And that's all I have to say about Willow. Sorry. I wanted to love it. I didn't. I'm sad. I know how much you were looking forward to it. I really, really wanted to. I wanted you to get something that you adored. And if people loved it, I think that's great. You know what I mean? I think there is plenty to love in there. So if people loved it, I think that's great. Did you know that...

our favorite sand snake no one's favorite sand snake but the bad pussy herself shows up but you need the bad pussy all timer she showed up and I was like oh it's the bad pussy herself memorable anyway dear me that was an actual sound that Steve just made

All right. Great stuff. Okay. What's next? That's why I love House of R, you know, you go from, it's like really heart heartfelt. Weep fest talking about the beauty of children's literature into the bad pussy quote in this point of mere moments. Who can say what will happen next? Who wrote that line? I want to find out. Oh,

All right, this is from Jason. What IP, outside of Marvel, Star Wars, Thrones, or Tolkien, would you guys want to see adapted slash rebooted into a film or TV show? What do you think the current state of film TV slash IP is right now? Especially given the very dicey 2022 Obi-Wan, Boba, Doctor Strange fest that we got last year. Okay, so we decided to take...

One to each make two picks one. Yeah. For something that we'd like to see adapted and then one reboot. Yeah.

You want to start with the reboot or the adaptation pick? I'm really excited about my reboot idea. Let's hear it. Hollywood Call Me. It's actually kind of like a really basic, obvious idea when you think about it. Just all of Hollywood? Anyone in Hollywood? I think, yeah. Everyone in Hollywood, call me. This is my elevator pitch to all of Hollywood listening. And I'm pretty sure if Kevin Feige could do this, he would have already done this. The very idea of this is giving Kevin Feige the biggest fandom boner of his lifetime. Reboot.

Back to the Future. Oh, shit. With Tom Holland as Marty McFly's kid and have him go back to the 80s and have him interact with the original Back to the Future films. Oh, my goodness. This is a lot to process in real time. Wow. Okay, so let's talk about Back to the Future for a second. Our tendency with things that feel perfect, like the first Back to the Future film was perfect. Yeah, unfuckable.

The first Back to the Future film is perfect and the sequels are less perfect, right? I have nostalgia lens about them, but they're less perfect. The first film is perfect. So you're like, don't fuck with Back to the Future. Like, why would you do that? However, there have been some recent examples like Mad Max Fury Road or Top Gun Maverick or like whatever, where it's like someone really got it. And something I know because... Academy Award nominee Top Gun Maverick?

Something I know because I recently wrote a book about Marvel Studios that'll be out in stores later this year is that Kevin Feige skipped his prom to go see Back to the Future. Like, the man loves Back to the Future. And Tom Holland, like, is... I don't know how long he can play a team, but he's a short king. He can play on the team for a while. So he's probably the same age, honestly, that...

Alex P. Keaton, Michael J. Fox. Anyway, same age as Michael J. Fox. That was when he made Back to the Future. Alex P. Keaton gets us into Family Ties territory, and that's where my parents got the name Mallory. Fun fact. That's great. I hope you get to tell Justine Bateman that one day. Fun fact for everyone listening today. Wow. What a suggestion. That one, that shook me. That floored me. I was not prepared for it. Are you against it?

No. I'm not, as you know, I'm very rarely opposed to revisiting any story in the universe we love, but it would have to be handled with care. It would have to be done well. Imagine opening up that world and fucking it up and botching it. No one would ever, I mean, Hollywood called you and then everyone else would call you too to yell at you for suggesting this to Kevin Feige. I hope they don't. I'm pretty sure I

stole this idea somehow from Dave Gonzalez, but I actually think he used to be pitching this as like Dylan O'Brien. Dylan O'Brien is now like aged out of, you know, Marty McFly territory. Back in the Maze Runner days, though, that would have been exceptional casting. We love styles. We love Dylan O'Brien. This is inspired. It's bold, but it's inspired. And frankly, even though it has shocked me...

It also simultaneously is amazing that it hasn't happened yet, given the IP boom that we're in. You know what this would be a big moment for? Much like Stranger Things has been, like a nostalgia fashion boom. Think of the sneakers that would get re-released in conjunction with this. I'm in for this reason alone. Yeah. Great one. Wow. Okay. Bold. Here's my reboot.

Can we all give Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy another chance? Please? Please, fucking God, can we try to do this again? Oh my God. Stop casting Martin Freeman in the perfect role in the wrong adaptation. The...

This is a 2005 film. Now, Hitchhikers over the years has existed in many different forms, right? We're talking about the beloved and adored and hysterical Douglas Adams novels, the, you know, old like BBC radio play days. There's the UK based TV show, the mainstream movie from the aughts.

just did not succeed. And then we never got another one. And we have our memories of Alan Rickman as Marvin, but not a lot else. And I refuse to accept that. These books are wonderful. They're hysterical. They are so biting and sharp and incisive. And I think that this should be a television show. Like, I remember a lot of the response to the film was,

There were many different critical pulls and some people really liked it. But this like kind of episodic nature of the narrative and saga and the stories. Well, like, let's make this a television show. Not everything has to be a movie. We're in the TV IP boom right now. Is there a reason that Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy can't be a eight episode season of TV? Yeah, 100%. Hollywood, good to quote, Hollywood call me.

Casting, I have no idea. I would have to think about that. Do you think Sean Fantasy can get the streets on board with this? Do you think he can call up the street, see if they'll back this? Sean, call us so that Hollywood can call you. There you go. We workshopped it in real time. Sean, if you call the street, the street will call us, and then Hollywood will also call us because we'll have the money, so it'll be great. I like where we landed. I like where we landed. I haven't read the Hitchhiker's Books in a few years. I used to love reading these in college. Maybe I'll do a reread this year. They're just a blast. Oh, yeah.

A blast. Okay. Adaptation. What hasn't been made yet? Yeah. Definition of IP that hasn't, like, what is IP that hasn't been... Yeah, that's good. That's a good way to wrap the pot in a timely fashion today. What is IP? But love persevering. You know what I mean? So, I mean, all I can think of are, like, book series that I like that haven't been adapted yet. But they're not, like, major Marvel, Lucasfilm, like, whatever. So...

Speaking of Douglas Adams, the author that reminds me, I think, the most of Douglas Adams is Terry Pratchett. Terry Pratchett has written one million books. Wow, Steve is really excited about this. The

there have been some films based on the Discworld books. There was a really terrible TV series called The Night Watch that came out that was based on this loosely, very loosely, based on this world of travesty, honestly. But, and Night Watch, which I have right here, is like the best for a stand-on. How big is your desk? How are dad

books within arm's reach I don't know it's like I had a big pile I love this the Nightwatch is Steve's Red Nightwatch it's like a perfect time travel book

back on your own life kind of story. Starring Sam Vimes, who's one of the greatest Terry Pratchett creations, the leader of the Nightwatch. So the Discworld series, if you've never read them, take place in a fictional place called like Morkpork and like there's just a million books and you could read them all

all or you can read them in any order, really. Don't start at the beginning because the Wizard books are not good. But like, have I smuggled another book recommendation? Yes. But I actually think the thing that would be most readily adaptable because a lot of the adaptations...

I've gotten it kind of wrong because, again, I think they go, like, a little too silly. I don't know. I feel like you need to take it a little more seriously, even though he's really, really funny. But, like, the funny comes from, like, kind of taking the world seriously at the same time. Or the Tiffany Aching books, which are the, like, I guess more YA books that he's written. It's a series about a young witch called Tiffany Aching and, like, the various witches who mentor her growing up. And I think that series is, like, perfect for...

for a TV series adaptation. So good. And I'm going to smuggle one more in here. Do it. Because we're talking about Harry Potter and we have complicated feelings around Harry Potter right now in the culture. But I want to recommend or talk about something that is slightly off topic

Harry Potter, which are the Simon Snow books by Rainbow Rowell. Have you read the Simon Snow books by Rainbow Rowell, Mallory? Okay, can I explain to you how these books came to be? Because the origin story is like the best part, right? Do it. Rainbow Rowell wrote a book called Fangirl. Fangirl is about a girl who writes fan fiction. In that book, Fangirl, she is writing...

Harry Potter fan fiction, but it's not called Harry Potter. It's called Simon Snow. So Simon Snow is like essentially a Harry Potter stand-in. And what she's writing is basically like Harry Draco slash fan fiction. So it's Simon Snow and this character named Baz who's a vampire. And so Simon and Baz...

So then that book was popular, but it had all these sections of fake Harry Potter, Simon Snow fanfic in it. And Rainbow Rowell liked doing that so much that she wrote a trilogy that's just set in the Simon Snow world. And it's Simon Snow and Baz and a third character who's Penelope, who's a Hermione stand-in. But it is Harry Potter, but it's not Harry Potter in that she came up with this really inventive idea for the magic of the world, which is that all the magical spells are based on

common phrases that people use. So like, the first book is called Carry On because like, so you could do a spell called Carry On because, you know, keep calm and carry on is like, you know, a Britishism or whatever. But the spells only work in the area A, where there's like people because they're, they are juiced by people

shared ideas of language, right? So they only work where there are people around. So if you're stuck in a dead zone where there's nobody, your spells won't work. And then also, in the second book, they go to America, so their British spells don't work in America because British sayings aren't the same as American sayings. So they have to learn a bunch of American spells. And it's really, really... And, like, and... Check back in after everyone makes their way through Spare, and we're all saying Todger all the time. Ha ha ha!

Oh, Harry. I have so many. There's multiple Harry Todger stories available today. The books are so, they're fun, they're funny, they're light, they're whatever. But then she takes what she does, and you may or may not like this, Molly. She takes the chosen one narrative and she like really digs in and upends and is like, is this good enough?

What is the trauma associated with being a chosen one, et cetera? And then they're just also very like dreamily romantic and stuff like that. So Simon Snow books would be amazingly adapted, I think. But is that just a sneaky way for me to recommend more books? Yes. What's the right streamer? Like what's the right home for that? Maybe like Prime Video?

Maybe. Okay. Like, I think, like, everything I like should probably wind up on HBO. But if I'm being honest, this is more of a, like...

sci-fi with a Y or, you know, like Orphan Block on sci-fi, that level of sci-fi or maybe private video. Yeah. Some of the great ones over the years. So, okay. I dig it. My pick is something that actually was mentioned and alluded to in one of our earlier questions. I am going with the Fairyland novels from Catherine Valente. I adore these books. There are five of them. They're...

So wonderful and such a joyful way to spend time. If you have not yet experienced September's Journeys in Fairyland, I cannot recommend them highly enough. Are you interested in meeting a character named A-L who is part Wyvern, part library? Yes. Well, then this is the story for you. 100%. Just stunning writing, magical ideas, this really...

fully realized and lovingly crafted world that like leans into and embraces all of the touchstones across the stories that we've grown up reading and loving that have influenced it in some way, but also then feels like very specific and particular to this vision. A lot of meaningful lessons, a lot of memorable characters. I, Adam got me the first book and had, had read the piece. I was like, I think this is something that you would like. And guess what? He was right. Fucking love these books. They're beautiful and great. Um,

There's like a the first book includes like a four page passage about soap and it is the most breathtakingly beautiful thing I've ever read. It's just such evocative language and world building. I love it. So I don't understand why this is not a series of films or television.

Oh, Jo, you would really, you would. Yeah. I think really, really like them. Really, really, really like them. You're selling me on all these books, Mallory. I'm really excited. You start with The Girl Who Circumvented Fairyland in a Ship of Her Own Making is the name of the first book. It's just a wonderful title.

It is. The titles are great. The girl who fell beneath Fairyland and led the revels there. The girl who soared over Fairyland and cut the moon in two. The boy who lost Fairyland and the girl who raced Fairyland all the way home. They are. So these look like they look like they're like like maybe like Lemony Snicket level. Is that where you sort of put it?

I guess this gets back to my earlier inability to properly slot any. To shelve something. Sure. To properly shelve. But I think that these are middle reader into YA. Okay. Perfect. They're lovely. Lovely. Fun. Okay. Fun, fun, fun. Delightful. This next question. This was a fun one. This is a quick one, but a fun one. Steve, can we hear number eight? From Nikita.

If you could go back in time and watch one show for the first time together and do a series deep dive on every episode that would come out, what would it be? Game of Thrones, Lost, and anything Star Wars related excluded. Right, yeah. Can't pick Thrones, we can't pick Lost, we can't pick anything Star Wars related. Correct. With that parameter in place, the final line of the question, this became an easy instant pick for me. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. My answer won't surprise you. No.

I don't think. Okay. Did you go with a genre story? Like, did you go with a nerd culture story? Or are you going... Actually, I have two, and one's a nerd culture story and one's not. Okay. Perfect. Okay. What's your nerd culture pick? Watching Buffy with you would be delightful to me. It's what everyone would guess that I would want to do is, like, show Mallory this ur-text of my life. So watching Buffy Vampire Slayer every week with you, Mallory Rubin, would be a pure joy for me. I thought that Buffy might come up here. I...

Also feel sure it will come up soon in another question that we have. But maybe not. Maybe not. We'll see. Oh, no. No? Interesting. I know what you mean, but no. Okay. Yeah. My pick is Battlestar. Yeah. Battlestar Galactica. BSG. Yeah. If we got to watch Battlestar together for the first time and talk about it on pods, it would be one of the highlights of my life. It would be incredible. It's like one of the...

We've been so incredibly, this is an earnest note for a second, immensely fortunate in the recent years of my career, my life to get to spend a lot of my time talking about like some of my genuine favorite things with my favorite people. And Battlestar is one of the things that's like high on the list of my all time favorite shows that I haven't really gotten to talk about on pods. So getting to do that would be such a, such a joy, but also just getting to experience it. Cause the first time I watched Battlestar was one of the true highlights.

My jaw is on the floor every episode. I have no interest in seeing anybody or doing anything in my life that, like, does not relate to continuing to watch Battlestar Galactica. It was just the only thing I cared about when I watched it for the first time. Isn't Battlestar the show they're watching, that great Portlandia sketch about binge-watching? Yes, it is. And they're like, another, another. And then when they realize they're done, they just scream. Yeah. Exactly. And I binge-watched Battlestar on, like, DVDs.

Same. Right? Because it wasn't... I don't think it was streaming on Netflix yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got the box sets. Mm-hmm. What's your... I think there's a chance that the non-nerd culture pick is the same because I went for the bit here. I don't know about you. Oh. Friday Night Lights. Sopranos. Sopranos.

We will have one to watch something with the person who hasn't seen it and I'm very familiar with it. Yeah. Okay. Sopranos. Friday Night Lights would be amazing. Friday Night Lights I really like the idea because you could tell me what all the football means. I would love to talk to you about the inner workings of booster culture in Texas. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be great. And like whether, like is Maddie Saracen good? Yeah.

QB1, baby. QB1. Okay. Friday Night Lights would be so fun. That's one of my favorite shows. We could talk about Murderball. You know? The Murderball season. Boy, could we. Yeah. Sharks. Remember the Sharks? They do. What a special television program. Great one. Great one. What's next, Steve? From Howard. If you could carry any, any,

weapon in all of fantasy, Marvel, Star Wars, horror fandom as a survivor on The Last of Us, what would it be? One exception, no Infinity Stones or gauntlets. Great question. I have a yes and to this for Howard. We got a later email, like an email this morning or whatever that's not on this list of someone. Well, it's just a suggestion for you, Mallory, as you play The Last of Us game. Someone says, as like a person who's scared of horror and zombies...

Also, but play the last of this game. They said what you really need to do, Mallory, is get yourself some Molotov cocktails and fling them from a distance. I have. I have. So here's the thing. Thank you for the suggestion. I regret to inform you that part of part of the challenge facing me is that my aim is atrocious. So this is an issue with my guns.

This is an issue when I'm fortunate enough to pick up a brick and I can't throw it properly. So I ended up using it as a melee weapon where I have much more success. And the aiming of the Molotov cocktail is in fact, Adam, my husband, who is a expert gamer and has been sitting next to me, watching me play. And like, I'd say it's a,

40% he's helping me and 60% he's just roasting me and has suggested that I just start using the Molotov cocktails to throw them against walls and distract the clickers with a sound cue in the other direction, which I think is quite rude. Quite rude. Yeah.

Yes, I'm not suggesting Molotov cocktails. My first instinct was to do like a bag of holding with a never-ending supply of Molotov cocktails in it. Did you consider... So a broad question I had for this is like, does the weapon that you pick mean that you have the associated powers from that fictional universe? Like, for example, if I said I'm going to take a wand, does that mean that I'm a wizard or does it mean I just have a stick of wood that I carry? You're a wizard, Mallory. Yeah.

You can jab people with the Elder Wand. You can probably take out an eye or two, but the clickers don't have eyes, so how was I going to help you? I have found the shivs to be useful in the game. Everyone says you should use a shiv, right, Steve? You should use a shiv. Oh, yes. Shiv Roy. My favorite shiv. That's a good question. I would say yes. If you have a lightsaber...

You're a Jedi. But then like, oh. Interesting. Yeah. Which makes, well, no, actually, I think it makes my pick really good. My actual pick, Bag of Holding was my comedy pick. My actual pick is Beric Dondarrion's flaming sword. And with Beric Dondarrion's flaming sword, I can't die. It's what I've decided. Okay. So Thoros has come with you to revive you? Yeah.

Yes. It's the flaming sword plus Thor's of Myr. Okay. It's...

I just wanted fire. I really feel like fire is key for what we're doing here. So I decided to go with the flaming sword. I think the downside is because I consider picking long claw just because long claw is my favorite magical blade, but it felt like too heavy to carry a bastard sword around if I'm trying to like move quickly and nimbly and not make sounds. Yeah, the valerian steel is not going to help you. Sneak around stealthily in a museum. I don't want to be swinging a valerian steel sword. But

But the fire, the combo of a sword you could slice with, the fire and the restorative powers of being brought back to life is handy. Holy rolor, baby. Let's do it.

So, Jo, I considered picking the subtle knife because obviously it's sharp enough to cut through anything, including a clicker head. But it's a short hill, right? It's not a sword. So on the one hand, easier to move around with it. But I think the drawback is clear, which is in order to use it, the foe has to get close enough to me that I'm in mouth tendril range at that point. And I don't want to be. I don't want to be.

I like the idea of being able to open a window, though, to another world to escape. That's very appealing, right? If things get really perilous. But are there mushroom people in every world? Well, this is... So how far do the tendrils go? Here's actually my real concern.

If the answer is yes, then you're fucked no matter what. If the answer is no, I think you're going to carry it with you for a while if you're the one who lets the spores or the tendrils into another uninfected world. That would be a tough one. The little tendrils follow you through the window? That would be a tough one. So I came down to two finalists. Okay. Haven't made my decision between the two. Let's talk it out in real time. Contender number one, the Darksaber. Great. Well, I'm surprised to hear that the Darksaber is one of my finalists here. Okay.

There's a practical element to any lightsaber, which is a hilt on your belt, right? You're not carrying around again. I love long claw, but cumbersome.

This is ease of movement, ease of use. The corollary of the downside is pretty clear, which is the iconic signature activation thromb. Yeah. It's going to draw some enemy clickers upon me, I think. So that would be troubling. That said, anyone who's drawn down upon me, I can fucking slice in half in a millisecond because I wield the dark saber and I'm awesome. And

in this scenario. So that would be really cool. Maybe it means I'm force sensitive. Steve, can you please make that a clip that we use later while they're just saying I wield the fucking dark saber and I'm awesome. I'm fucking awesome. Shit.

All right, Darth Mallory, what's your other idea? I also, with the dark saber, I like that, you know, obviously it is a sword, but you can use it as a shield, right? You can deflect and that's handy for maybe a tendril or a spore coming at me, but also fellow man, really the enemy always. And so I got to be able to deflect bullets, which I could do with the dark saber. Maybe it means I'm force sensitive.

that would be fucking awesome. But if not, we know that the dark saber is routinely wielded by non force users. And also I like that if it grows too heavy in my hand, it's like a sign to me. It's like having a coach there with me, right? I am, I've lost my focus here. I'm not approaching this the right way. Uh, I think that would be great.

I threw this out to Adam and he was troubled by my pick and was really pushing me to think about protection instead of an active weapon. And he was like, if you have, if you have the dark saber that you're just going to be taking a nap and get mouth tendrils by the foe. Yeah.

Steve, you're not doing the last of this podcast with us, so you don't see that this is what happens every time someone says mouth headphones. I get really upset. It's great.

I also love that this has introduced a world where the worst thing a zombie could do to you is kiss you. Yeah, well, you know, like the idea of having the Darksaber and getting taken out by a clickers when you're napping, it made me think, Joe, of, you know, on House of Recommends, one of the really fun end-of-year pods we did, you suggested The Great. As you know, I started watching it over the holiday, having a fucking blast, almost caught up. It's a delight. That would be the equivalent of just Peter getting hungry. Yeah.

Saying like, yeah, I really need some sustenance. I need a snack. Okay. I just would never sleep, like, especially if you go back to episode two and it opens with Ellie sleeping on that little patch of grass. The tendrils could have so easily gotten her coming up through the grass, man. Well, let me throw out my second suggestion because I think I could nap comfortably in Iron Man's Mark 50 armor. Okay.

That's a way better Marvel op. I was like, is she going to go for Cap's shield? But no. No. Full body armor is a way better option there. And specifically, I'm going with the bleeding edge armor because I need nanotech. I can't be walking around...

the apocalypse with heavy armor. I need something that moves with me and does what I need and adapts in real time. Maybe if I meet some genius on the road that can replicate some of this tech and we can heal the world together. But if not, I have all of the sword and shield, active weaponry and protection that I need here. Could they...

penetrate the armor? I guess it's a question worth considering, but I'm going to go with no in this scenario. Now, if it breaks, I'm fucked. But I don't think that there's an equivalent here of Thanos throwing a moon on me. I think if I have the Mark 50, I'm good. That said, I really want the Darksaber because I'm not sure if I've said this to you guys before, but if I had the Darksaber, I would be fucking awesome. Fucking awesome.

Steve is making I object face. Steve, what's your objection? No, I don't object. I have one question. Is the reason that you picked the Mark 50 is because you would ultimately be wearing a Nike Tech fleece in the apocalypse? You know, I would have some athleisure on underneath. With like little straps? With some really nice bracelets. No, no like bell-bottom flares for me at the end of my joggers, though. That would be the big departure between me and Tony. Platforms.

You love a flare, Mallory. All right. It's a hard one. It's a hard one to pick. So in conclusion... I just... I really want to pick the Darksaber, even though I think the Mark 50 is the better choice. I think, but also just like... I mean, this is why I want the Flaming Sword. Beric Dondarrion's Flaming Sword. So I can just like... Yeah.

hack at things with a flaming fucking sword sounds really fun. Yeah. You don't think the Mark 50 has a lightsaber equivalent equipped to it? I was going to say I could replicate that. You know, we've got like the sword extending nanotech, repulsor beams, lots of ammo. I could probably make my own. I mean, there's no kyber crystals in the Mark 50, but I could approximate it. Also, tendril protection. I know. I know. That's... You do need to think about the tendril protection. I'm so upset about that.

Can we move on? Okay. So we're going through the apocalypse with a flaming sword, Molotov cocktails, Mark 50, bleeding edge, nanotech armor, and the dark. And you would be what Mallory? Fucking awesome.

Thoros would be a tough traveling companion because he's really a rum guy and I'm more of a rye gal. No, I kind of feel like then you're not dipping into each other's supply. I feel like that's a good combo. We leave the dip in for the mouth tendrils. Dear God, Steve. Calamari dip. Oh boy. Okay, this next one, Joe, is where I thought you were going to mention Buffy. I know, Buffy, I know, but I'm not. You've wowed me by saying you're not, so I have no idea what's coming. Let's find out.

All right, from Mike, what shows immediately make you like a stranger or new person you meet when they reference it? Okay, like Buffy's a good one, but like a lot of people have seen Buffy. And what's even more special is if someone has seen like a very like little seen television show that you really like. So one good example is something like Slings and Arrows, which is a Canadian TV series about a Shakespeare character.

uh group that is amazing three seasons the great sarah polly rachel mcadams ever heard of her luke kirby your boyfriend all uh yeah lenny bruce himself uh so slings and arrows love lenny amazing um or there's like a bunch of british shows from the early aughts before was like easy to get british television here so like your black books your green wing your life on mars ash ash is spaced

Basically, if you had to go out and get a box set of something, that's Mighty Boosh. It used to be Taskmaster, but now a lot of people are watching Taskmaster, so that's less special. But something pretty niche-y. Steve, why are you making so many faces? No, because I love all of these shows. I was waiting for you to say Skins. I mean, you know my love for Nick Holtz is true. Of course. Posh Kenneth, of course. Mallory? Now I'm just sorry. Now I'm thinking about...

about Peter again and the great Black Books by the way Black Books is amazing a perfect television show and look if you're in if you meet someone and one of these comes up you're like this person's gonna be my friend for life yeah love it if someone went out of their way to watch Black Books at some point yes

Okay, so going for... So we're not doing the Battlestars or the Losts. Or small independent projects like Game of Thrones. Going for... Boy, okay, is Dark a candidate here? Because that would be definitely one for me. If I come across somebody who's just sitting there saying the end is the beginning and the beginning is the end, I say, would you like to...

Would you like to be my lifelong companion and creative soulmate? And then that's what happens. And we share a journey from there of shared sorrow when 1899 gets canceled after one season. One season. So that would be a pick for me for sure.

I do think I have this experience with Fringe, where if people mention Fringe, I get really excited and eager to talk to them about more pop culture. I think Black Mirror is so popular and widely consumed that it maybe isn't eligible for this version of answering the question. But I will say particularly the San Junipero, Be Right Back, The Entire History of You, Trinity. Anyone who has strong feelings for those three episodes, I think we're going to have a lot of fun things to talk about. And then...

Here's one for you. Pushing Daisies. Oh my God. You know what it said in my notes? What it said in my notes was Brian Fuller shows. So Pushing Daisies, Dead Like Me, you know, Waterfalls, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, Pushing Daisies is a really good one. I just, as you know, I feel very strongly about Lee Pace. Yeah.

And pocket-sized anaphyl. Yeah. You love wheat paste as well, but you refuse to acknowledge warm fruit. I do. There's a lot. I mean, I had to suffer through a lot of like cherry, goopy cherry pie filling to enjoy that season of television. What's worse? This mushroom thing that you have now or pie? Pie. Let me just say, mushrooms are delicious and pies...

absolutely delicious. This is an away game for you, Joanna. Like, I don't understand you. To be clear, there are many pies I like. Pecan, lemon meringue, pumpkin, whatever. It's the fruit situation that's the problem. This is... No. It's a sad and tough day when you as a person in the world have to really grapple with the fact that nobody's perfect. And when we learned this about Joe, that was our moment, Steve. Yeah.

Everyone lets you down at some point. Can I amend the question to be like, what can somebody say that will immediately ban their friendship from your life? Like, I don't like you. I don't like pies. I don't like you. Um,

Fun fact for Harry Potter audiobook fans is that Jim Dale, who narrates the American version of the audiobooks of Harry Potter, narrates Pushing Daisies. Have you never seen Pushing Daisies? That's like a fun, it's very comforting to hear Jim Dale's voice. It is. It's an incredibly charming show. Yeah. Wonderful. All right, what's next? All right, from Ben. Who on Andor would you want in your tribe of Survivor?

Who on Andor would win Survivor, knowing that the most strategic players sometimes get kicked off after the merge? Looking at you, Luthan. Who would be voted out first if there was time? Okay, so we'll do a very quick run-through of some Andor characters and some of their Survivor archetypes. I think that'll be the way we handle this. We'll make it rapid fire here. Marva.

Yeah. The one who makes us sob during the family visits and letter reads due to a note from Bea. Marva's also, I think, the character who inspires the creation of the most lasting alliance, but isn't there to enjoy the fruits of that alliance's success. Namek.

student of the game. Nemec is the modern day survivor player who goes on Survivor and talks about having watched Survivor and grown up studying the game and loving the game and knowing everything about it and is a genius and a tactician and a student of human nature and a student of the rules of the game and knows what every challenge is going to be the second they walk up to the course, knows how people behave, knows how to anticipate voting behavior, and

but is so good at it, is such an active intimidation to the people who aren't ready to accept this level of genius that can't quite bring home the prize. I would say that Nemec is like the Christian from David versus Goliath, one of my favorite survival players, but the genius can only take you so far. Skeen, definitely the guy who steals everybody's food and hides it, for sure.

You win something at an award, you have a limited amount of rice, takes it while everyone's sleeping, buries it in the sand, enjoys it on his own until he is discovered. Do people do that on Survivor? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's happened. There's some... People have hit in. There's pineapple, some peanut butter. Some people have taken socks before. Like, some of it is just selfish. What can I gain? And some of it is how can I...

totally disrupt by somebody else. Starving them and taking their rice portion. Yeah, it's one of our greatest television programs. Vel and Cinta, they're the showmans that you make the mistake of underestimating, right? Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah. Serious players. Serious players. Don't fuck with Cinta. That's what I have to say about that. Exactly. Saw Gerrera, obviously the guy who refuses to join the main alliance and thinks that he can always outsmart the numbers, even though he's clearly not in the numbers, but somehow amazingly is usually right. And then at the end has to explain how he got to the end, despite never being in the numbers. Yeah.

Luthan, I think clearly the alliance builder who has the main alliance and runs the main alliance, but also has a number of different sub alliances that he can move in and out of as the moment demands, makes the final three without question, is clearly the dominant player of the season, but definitionally cannot win. This is the problem with modern day Survivor. The person who dominates the season is it's overwhelming.

almost impossible for them to win. Some of that is that everybody on the jury is mad at them because they have bested them in order to be in that spot. There are a lot of other reasons that are discussed at length on our wonderful Survivor pod. The pod is spoken. Check it out when a new season of Survivor starts this spring. What a great podcast network. I think that Mon Mothma is the player who is underestimated until the end, but is sitting there at final tribal and has the opportunity to out-argue everyone else and then earn the votes. Yeah.

Cyril, classic overplays his hand right away at the merge. First one voted out. Makes the merge, but first voted out without question. First voted out and has to watch the rest of the season from his mom's kitchen eating cereal. First voted out at the merge. He's the last person who didn't make the jury. Dedra, biggest conversation starter for the people watching at home. First one cast in the follow-up heroes and villains season coming out of this season of Survivor. Bix,

Trusts no one. And as such, always on the lookout and finds every idol an advantage. Paying attention, looking in the right spots, checking underneath the shelter at camp, looking in the water well. Strategic player. Cassian.

Challenge beast, highly strategic, knows how to balance protecting himself with protecting his alliance. Strong social game that exponentially improves each day over the course of the season. Respected even by those who fear and resent him, a.k.a. the winner. Okay.

What do you think? If you would ask me, given how little I know about Survivor, that was incredible. By the way, a round of applause. That's the dark saver. You're fucking awesome of answers to a mailbag question. But if you would ask me who's going to make it all the way, I would say Mon Mothma. Yeah. Like, that's who I would bank on. Like, little Miss Poker Face. Little Miss Smile. Mon definitely gets there at the end and then out talks everyone at Final Tribal. For sure.

For sure. Great. I love it. Okay. What's next? All right. All right. This is from Paul, Joe and Mal, but probably mostly Joe. My three-year-old daughter loves musicals such as Sound of Music and Frozen. I'd love to convince her and my wife to watch something more nerd culture, but I can't think of anything. Got any recommendations? Okay, Joe. So what would you recommend to somebody who loves musicals and is looking for some nerd culture fare?

Yeah, it's interesting because I thought about this and like a lot of my answers are still based in like a fantasy realm, which is nerd culture. Right. But like, but Labyrinth was the first thing came to mind, but it might be a little scary for a three year old or a three year old might be like too young to be scared. I don't know. There's like I watched Labyrinth when I was really young. Yeah. I think that counts as a musical. David Bowie sings several songs. Yeah.

It did not scare me, but that was in part of the scary 80s where we watched a lot of scary shit. So it might be too scary for a three-year-old or she might just like absolutely love it. But Labyrinth was my first thought. And then Spamalot, the Monty Python musical. Hell yeah. Could be really fun. Oh, man. Yeah.

And then, um, Galavant, which was a TV series musical, um, that is similarly like sort of set in a medieval world and has like really fun music in every episode and is a really underrated canceled too soon. ABC. I mean like no way it was going to run for a long time. Cause it was like a medieval, a night's tale musical kind of show, but it's really goofy and fun and has good music in it. Um,

So, Galavant would be one. And then, like, I mean, obviously, people are going to say something like Dr. Horrible, but I think if something, if, like, if The Hammer is My Penis is the best joke of your musical, it's not for a three-year-old, probably. And also, we have weird region feelings. So, yeah. Labyrinth. Spam a lot. Galavant. That's what I would say. But I would love to hear from people. Like, Little Shop of Horrors. Kind of, but again, like, I watched that when I was really, really young, but again, that might be scary. Yeah.

I don't know. Do you have any thoughts or feelings about this? Is Big a musical? There's a lot of Billy Idol and there's a very memorable scene on a giant piano. So I'm not sure Big is appropriate for children after revisiting it. What I will say is like, I always want to be sensitive to how sensitive people's kids are because like my nephews are really sensitive and I like...

like we tried to show my oldest nephew the animated Robin Hood and he like when he was really he was young but not like so young and like Sir Hiss scared you know so it's just sort of like okay you know fine what was your favorite cartoon to watch when you were a kid like my favorite Disney animated film I guess there are other options but it's either Robin Hood or Sleeping Beauty I love Sleeping Beauty yeah how about you

I used to watch Rescuers Down Under every other weekend when my sister and I would go to my dad's house. That was our go-to. And then when we got a little older... If you type Joanna into the GIF search on Twitter, you will always get Rescuers Down Under GIFs. Rescuers was a great one. And we used to watch the animated Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe quite a lot. That was part of why I always thought Turkish Delight seemed delicious. It's very appealing looking and it's not in that...

And then when we got a little older, we started watching Clueless. Oh, I was going to say, you might want to test watch this, but on the Harry Potter front. And again, like, it's hard to talk about Harry Potter. But anyway, on the Harry Potter front, have you ever watched the Starkid Harry Potter musical? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I'm not sure that a three-year-old would love Starkid, but like the Starkid stuff is really fun.

They're like Aladdin musical is really, really fun. You know, so they've got a bunch of genres. They've got a Star Wars one. They've got a superhero one. Like they've got genre musicals that you can watch on YouTube. That might be fun for a kid. Nerd culture musicals. This is a real mashup of your many passions, Jo. But I feel like there's not enough. So perhaps there's a market for us to get in on the ground floor. Hollywood, call Jo! Yeah.

All of Hollywood. Call me. We'll make a musical version of Back to the Future starring Tom Holland. He could do it. He's a song and dance man. That's true. There you go. You'll be collecting your Tony's before long. Steve, did we do it? Do we have any more? We've got one more from Josh. And he says, I'm curious which question that you'll answer from today's mailbag that you would deem this episode's secret scroll.

Like the question or the person who sent in the question? I guess they're maybe related. I'm guessing the person based on the question they asked. I will go with air quotes Jason for the IP question and the reboot, the adaptation and reboot question. Again, Hollywood calls Zaslav. If you're interested in knowing what to reboot or adapt, you can just ask. You can just ask. That felt like a secret scroll one. Zas, call us.

I'm going to go with quote unquote Peter, Mr. Ethan Frome and White Noise for being like, what is a book that you would recommend? Do you know what I mean? Like that feels like something an alien might ask. What are books? And should I read one? So nice try, Peter. Yes. Secret Scroll. You think Ben Mendelsohn sent that one? I think Kobe Smulders in scroll makeup sent that one.

Oh, boy. Steve, Reno, do you have a secret scroll that you want to pick?

Also, I literally never called you Steve-arino before and I've done it twice today. We're really trying names out today. I don't know where I got that one. I'd say quote-unquote Paul because that's a very pointed musical question towards Joe. Oh, Secret Scroll with their Secret Scroll child. I see. Yeah, Secret Agenda. Or the Survivor one that's very pointed towards Mal and she can just riff for five minutes plus. You think that's just Jeff Probst looking for a crossover event? Yeah.

It's Mike White. It was Mike White. I mean, the dream. Literally the dream. Okay. What a blast. What a joy. So fun. Love a mailbag. We said this was going to be a shorty and it wasn't. You know, like our beloved Tess said, you try climbing 10 fucking floors or answering 13 questions with our knees. See how you feel. Yeah.

Thank you to all of you for hitting us up at hobbitsanddragons at gmail.com, sending us your wonderful questions. We will do another mailbag before too long. These are always such fun. Thank you to Steve Arino, Stove himself, Steve Ullman, for producing this episode. Good old Stove.

Oh, Arjun Ramgopal, of course, for his additional production work on this episode and Jomia Daneron for his work on the social for this episode. Remember to pop over to the Prestige TV feed for our Last of Us pods, instant reaction with Van and Charles, deep dive with us on episode three, coming on Sunday and Tuesday nights and then head back to Ringiverse on Wednesday for the Midnight Boys, pew, pew, and Friday for the House of Armando prep watch list. Until then, see if I can channel Joel's

whisper yell here. This point forward, we are silent, not quiet, silent.

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