Rings of Power’ Season 2, Episode 6 Deep Dive | House of R
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Just bring your number and ID and sign up for an eligible plan. After 12 months, trade in and get our best deals on select devices. This episode is brought to you by The Home Depot. It's that time of year, so spread more joy with The Home Depot's giant holiday decor. Go big this holiday season with larger-than-life decor that really hits home. Be like my wife. She'll just go to Home Depot to see what they got cooking. She's always ready to plan for the holidays. Maybe that's a tree.

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Would you abandon them to their doom? She is my friend. Your friend or your destiny. The choice is yours. Hello, welcome back to House of R. I'm Joanna Robinson. Joining me today, she is my friend. It's Mallory Rubin. Quick question, Jo. Did you by any chance have lizard for supper? Why do you, how do you? Hello, welcome. Here we go. Um.

We're here to talk to you about Rings of Power Season 2, Episode 6. We are thrilled to do so. Devastated that there's only two more episodes after this. Cannot actually believe it. Before we get into discussing this week's episode, of course, we want to do quick programming reminders and just let you know, Agatha and Penguin, they're here. And we're excited to cover them. The Midnight Boys, pew, pew, will have reactions to both Penguin and the Agatha premieres on Thursday.

We will be here on Friday with our Agatha episode, Penguin to follow at a later date. But we are starting with Agatha. We're going to do a Rings of Power Agatha double act in the next few weeks. And then the Mint Edition fellas are doing Transformers 1 episode on Saturday. And I just heard, fresh off the presses, they liked it more than they thought they would. So you can hear more about that on Saturday. It's very exciting. Okay.

Now, how are folks possibly supposed to keep on top of all of that content coming their way?

Here's the deal. Follow the pods. Sure. Follow House of R and follow the ringer verse on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And while you're at it, follow the new ringer verse YouTube channel. You can get full video episodes of House of R and the Midnight Boys pew pew on both Spotify and YouTube. While you're at it, follow the ringer verse on the social media platform of your choosing. The ringer versus on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter,

and then send us an email. The inbox is always open here at the house of our hobbits and dragons at gmail.com. Joe, back to you for the weather. Spoiler alert. We cried at an email this week. Okay. Uh, your guys, Tolkien emails are incredible. I expect you to keep bringing this energy as we, as we head into which season with Agatha. Um, we love, we love all of your emails. Thank you so much for sending them. Spoiler warning.

It's a little complicated when it comes to rings of power. Here's what we do. We assume that, you know, the basic plot and premise of the Lord of the Rings, both the books and more probably accurately the Peter Jackson films are

So we're going to just assume that you know what happens in that story and probably also in The Hobbit. But there's, you know, there's some gray area in between what we're watching here and what happens in Lord of the Rings. Like you may know that certain characters aren't in that story, but how did we get there? That is the part that we save for like sort of our second episode.

ring that we call, I mean, it's kind of a book spoiler section, not really, but that's the best we can do here on the Rings of Power. Season two, episode six podcast. Let's get into the opening snapshot. As I mentioned, we are doing season two, episode six. Where is he?

Written by Justin Doble and directed by Sanaa Hamri, one director on this episode. Where is he is, of course, the DM that Adar sent by way of bloody dead body carving. Fun. It's also something that Sauron says right before he sees the body, which is like a weird, interesting little thing. Any other meaning here of the title for you, Mallory Rubin? Yes. Where is Elrond? Exactly.

I was like, there's two options here. Either she's going to say, where is Elrond? Or she's going to say, where is that little mouse that's running around in Eregion? One of two. The two most important characters on the Rings of Power. Where is Elrond? I do not like waiting this long to spend meaningful time with our guy, Elrond.

Too long away. We got him for like 30 seconds last week. He wasn't in this episode at all. I miss him. We miss those girls. We better go full Elrond in episode seven and eight. I like that. Okay. Broad sweeping question. Just taking your temp. Mallory Rubin, did you enjoy this episode of Rings of Power? I did. I am entering a full state of despondence that we are nearing the end of our journey. Just...

utter abject despair. And so, as you and the bad babies have grown accustomed to, I am just thinking about the thing being over. And I'm just trying to force myself to enjoy the fact that we still have a couple weeks to go together and also that we never really have to leave Middle-earth. That's part of the great pleasure of doing the pod is we always have reason to come back and talk about this a little bit more. This episode, so missing Elrond, our guy Gil, Isildur, Estrid,

Theo, the dark wizard. Again, let me say this and get this on the public record. If another cherished fantasy tale is

Brought to the screen for our Prestige TV viewing. Wastes. Wastes. I am actually going to be mad. I hope we're just building up to more meaningful screen time. But this is like, it's given me Mance a little bit. I need more time with him. We've gotten like no time with him at all. But the reason we've been tracking the last couple of weeks, you know, who hasn't been in the episode and who has. The reason I mentioned it this week is actually because

We had a lot of characters and a lot of storylines in this episode, more than we have in recent weeks. It was a little bit more of the season one pace where you go to each storyline and each character set for a couple scenes, but not like 25 minutes, like had been the case in recent weeks. And you know what?

I'm going to reserve final judgment until the end of the season, but I am prepared to recant my commentary on the last couple episodes as a result. Because I actually think, like looking back, especially at last week, getting more time, even if it meant being away from other character sets, getting to really luxuriate in a given storyline has really been to my liking the last few weeks. So we'll see where it nets out on balance. But I am like, okay, we only have a couple to go. And we just like have not spent much time, period, with say Isildur. All that said, we got some

We got some really great stuff in this episode that I genuinely can't wait to talk to you about today. A lot of it involves wigs. It's a big moment for you in wig watch today. I also will be referring to this episode, you know, forever more as the one where they didn't fuck. And that can apply to a lot of different character pairings in this episode. I can think of at least four. So I'm eager to discuss all of that with you today. Four off the top of my head. Yeah.

Okay. Did I like this episode? Yeah. I think I agree with you. This felt a little like, I felt a little pulled all over the place trying to hop between storylines. But what we got in those storylines, I did, for the most part, enjoy. So that's sort of what happened in this episode. Yeah.

Some really good stuff, I think, I thought from our guy Adar in this episode. And then just like the pure joy, and we keep saying it week to week, but it is just true. And it is good that it is true because it is the central story of the season. Charlie and Charlie, the double act is...

Irresistible. Wonderful. And I think, you know, Charlie Vickers is always great, but Charles Edwards, as we get closer and closer to full-blown breakdown, Caleb Bremboir. Sublime. Absolutely perfect. Just love him so much. So I'm really happy to have all of that. Monster of the week this week. Our pal, the Numenorean sea worm is back in the habit.

You could also say the bats in Casa Doom, if you prefer. Those looked like puppets to me, and that was pretty sick, I thought. Like, I don't think that was CG. I mean...

I don't always have the perfect eye for this. So please, hobbitsanddragons.gmail.com if you are an affronted visual effects artist right now. But like, I don't know. They kind of looked a little puppety to me. So, and I said that as a compliment. I need James Gunn to get Disa in the DCU stat. After seeing her summon bats through the power of her resonating, it is time for Disa to join the Batverse. The Bat family? Yeah. Yeah.

They could use her. They could really use someone like Deesa in the Bat Family. Let me tell you that right now. Okay. Couple emails before we get into sort of our larger breakdown. We got two emails about this from Alan and Gage about the phrase, Mallory's favorite phrase from last week's episode, the wolves are licking at the cradle. Which...

which Alundil meant to say, like sort of the wolves are at the door is sort of like how, what he was saying there. And we mentioned that it's not, it's not a phrase you hear I've ever heard outside of this. But we got a couple of emails saying, Hey, there's a Welsh folk tale and I'm Welsh. I should know this. Starring someone named Llewellyn. That's my middle name. I should know this. But anyway, this is, this is the story.

In the legend, Llewellyn the Great returns from a hunt to find his baby missing, home in disarray, and his hound, Gellert, with blood on his mouth. Thinking Gellert killed his baby, he draws his sword and kills the hound. Immediately after Gellert is killed, Llewellyn hears the cries of his baby unharmed and lying beside a dead wolf, which had attacked the baby but was killed by Gellert.

Then, understanding the tragedy of having slain his loyal hound, Llywelyn buried Gellert with ceremony and the town is now named for the grave. So, traumatic. The Welsh don't really do any stories other than traumatic. So, traumatic Welsh tale. Thanks to my people. And I kind of liked this as a...

you know, as a folk tale that might be in their mind when they're coming up with these colorful phrases. And we've got a few more of those in this episode to sort of highlight. But also just that sort of theme of misdirected violence or misassigned blame feels very pertinent to the story we're watching. So yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Great emails. Maddie wrote in, and I meant to talk about this last week. Maddie wrote in about Volandiel's death.

And we were mourning Volandil. We were very upset that he had died. But Maddie was pointing out, this is something I had been asking since the beginning of the season, this question of like how dark or how violent is too violent for Rings of Power. Especially, I mean, we are going to war. That is coming up. So how violent is that going to get? But Maddie says...

we've seen plenty of violence in the show so far, but there was something intimate and visceral about the scene in the shrine where Kevin kills the land deal that felt more game of Thrones than Lord of the Rings. The closest L O T R comparison I can think of is at the beginning of the return of the King movie. When Smeagol kills Deagle over the one ring and begins his descent into madness for all the violence and darkness we've seen in the show so far, there was a heaviness to the evil of this episode that I think has taken the show into new territory. Do you agree with that? Mallory? How do you, what do you think?

I don't know. We've been talking about this, obviously, since last season when we were shocked by some of the violence in the early episodes. You know, Hal Brand snapping the arm in half in the Numenor street fight, etc. When I did my...

When I did my rewatch of the films to get set for this season, I actually had it in mind watching because there are a number of violent moments in those movies that I don't necessarily think of as being violent movies. But, you know, you've got boulders smashing faces and heads being sliced off and knives through thigh meat, etc. So I don't know that this, to me, feels that...

that much more violent in terms of the blood and gore element. But I think the framing of this as something like that we are watching in close quarters and that is unfolding in these, in these like sacred spaces, um, is, is interesting. But, you know, I, I,

I'm curious what you think about this because this has been on your mind, like you said, since the beginning of not only the show, but this season with this question of just the overall tone and whether this would be family friendly enough. So like, did something like that, that scene in the shrine feel to you like it reached a different, like, like threshold of, of violence or not? Not necessarily. I'm trying to, I mean, the, the prolonged fight, the holding the head under the water, the very satisfying snapping of bones. Yeah. We love that so much. Like,

I mean, I am not squeamish when it comes to violence, personally. So I don't mean to, like, pearl clutch on behalf of people who might not even be clutching their pearls in the first place. But I think that thinking about what's the difference between a Volandial death and a Boromir death, you know, which is also harrowing. And I think it's...

I don't know, it might be like character... I mean, yeah, we can see like Denethor on fire running off the side of the cliff. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right. That's something to keep in mind. I do think that still the distinction between something like what happened here in Thrones is like...

If that scene is in a Thrones episode, we're seeing that Kemen is soaking his pants. There's just a different level of visceral detail and gore that is unfolding in Thrones than I think we're still getting here. Though we have had some blood, certainly. Not enough sex, though! Not enough sex. We'll see what happens when we go to war. Okay. So, exciting. Do you think we're going to get some...

Are you thinking post-war celebratory? Oh, you thought sex. I meant violence. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry, pal. Sad. Oh, boy. Tough. What a bummer. Okay. Yeah. Jeez.

Jesse wrote in to say that when she was growing up every year around Christmas, her mom read Tolkien's letters from Father Christmas, which Tolkien originally wrote and illustrated for his children in response to their letters to Santa. So this is in response to our listener, Sarah, who was like, how early can I get my kids into the world of Tolkien? And Jesse suggests this might be a fun early tradition to start, perhaps with your family. Wonderful.

Brandon, we just want to shout out, sent us an incredible email about reading Lord of the Rings for the first time that really got to us. So Brandon, thank you so much for that email. We're getting tons of emails from people who are reading Lord of the Rings the first time. And that is just like the best thing we could possibly hear. So thank you to all of you for sharing your story. And Brandon, yours in particular really got to us.

And then last but not least, this one is for Mallory Rubin, specifically from our listener Meredith, who went to go see the Bull Durham musical that another one of our listeners alerted us to several months ago. I pulled out one part for you, which is from Meredith. She says, now for the good stuff. There were no bare butts, but several tighty-whities and a lot of bare chests, also F-bombs and spinning bats. So Mallory, how do you feel about this? Meredith, I have a...

multiple follow-up questions but i will keep it can you please let us know does crash davis iron in his boxers we await your owl thank you very important uh we'll take that answer off air okay um that brings us i believe to the deep dive we start and finish quickly with iran dear

who has very little to do in this episode, but he is here and he's running. Um,

And not quite as well, I would say, as our guy Elrond, but he's running. He's got a long way to go. If that character wants to be part of the sack of Eregion, he's coming all the way up from the Southlands. So no breaks for Erandir. He breaks a little bit to kill some orcs, but other than that, he's on the road. If you're drawing a map, do you use dirty...

sackcloth to do it. I mean, needs must, I suppose. But what do you think? You know, after seeing the...

Frankly, astonishing and enviable culinary spread at Adar's camp that we'll get to momentarily. I'm no longer prepared to accept that he doesn't have cleaner parchment or other luxuries at his disposal. So it's a good question. Perhaps these deserters had been...

you know, fondling and handling and fingering the map with dirty hands. Grubbing it. Who can say. Yeah, I did enjoy, though, the little touch that through the filth, you could see the, you know, trademark Ringsian black outlines. Little touch of red in there. Little red. That was nice. I enjoyed that. To your point about distance, I am compelled to ask not for the first time this season, but

Why everyone is only running, even if they are elves who can travel great distances and go quite quickly. I mean, you've asked this a couple times and I hate to get into it because I don't know how consistent the show is being about it. Yeah. But...

What is supposed to be true is that there are no horses on Middle-earth and that the Numenoreans brought the horses that exist. But we watched Elrond and Galadriel ride horses. Those were all Numenorean horses that Galadriel brought from the battle where the Numenoreans brought all their... But Elrond was just with all the Numenoreans at the end of last season with the battle. He couldn't get a horse somewhere? Absolutely. Off of like...

Hagen or something like that? Yeah, exactly. They had a bunch of horses. Yeah. Hey, I mean, you know, like after Hagen escaped his little ant cocoon, why didn't everybody, everybody upon this great reunion finally go and find some horses? Fine, I'll let it go. Thank you for indulging me one last time. No, no, no. I mean, I think you make a good point. I don't think the show has made it as clear as, and the only reason I am aware of this is

our pal Dave Gonzalez likes to talk about it a lot and about how like in the season one, when Galadriel is on Numenor and there's that like really long slow-mo horse ride, Dave's like, the reason she's so blissed out is because they don't have horses on Middle Earth. They have them on Numenor. And I don't think the show has ever made that crystal clear, nor do I believe that the show is completely sticking to that as true. So yeah,

I hate to sort of throw all my... Because like the...

Barak has a lot of work to do. That's what you're building towards. The Gowdrim have horses in Rune. So is it just like there's horses in Rune and horses in Numenor, but only like a ship full of horses for the rest of Middle-earth? I don't know. Great question. Horse or no horse, what is your official prediction for when Erandir will arrive? Is this brief glimpse that we got to remind us that he said that he, you know, had the

Promises to keep. Promises to keep. Yeah. And had to... Miles to go before he sleeps. Yeah. Exactly. Following the trail where it leads, seeking this additional chance to confront Adar. Will he arrive in time to help? Will he arrive at the end? What do you think? Oh, yeah. I mean, I could see this being a sort of nice of the veil or look to me at the dawning second day. Yeah.

that he arrives just when we forgot about him. Arandir will do a spinning leap into frame and save someone. That sounds right. That sounds like something he would do. I think so. We go now to a section I'm calling protein loading with Adar and Galadriel who are just absolutely crushing those macros. Just really, really getting well fueled up to go to battle. Mallory, Ruben, I want to clear some space for you to say what you want to say about Adar's

Well, two things. One, you know, when we were breaking down some of the glimpses in the vision, you thought perhaps we were witnessing Adar reaching. I said, is our guy as handsome as I find him this season? Is he rocking a well-manicured and well-lotioned hand like that? We see him in these heavy metal gloves. His face looks like a bowl of cottage cheese. I don't know. Every time you say it, it's upsetting. Every time. Yeah.

And guess what? These hands look like... Nivea, do you think? Rose petals. Like Neutrogena... Neutrogena silk. The Neutrogena, like, fisherman's, like, heavy ointment cream, perhaps? Yeah, he's using, like, an aquaphor. Yeah. Like a heavy healing. A thick...

coating and then he puts them in the in the gloves and that is like locks in the moisture absolutely perhaps he has a paraffin wax kit somewhere i'm sure i mean i'm pretty sure the orcs are dipping those hands for him nightly it it does make me wonder yeah say it what's waiting everywhere else you know i had made some assumptions

And now I'm forced to confront whether they were fair. And, you know, this is a podcast where we seek to be our truest selves. Our most authentic selves. With each other and with the bad babies. Wait, are other people listening to this? I thought this was just us talking about what is underneath Adar's armor.

Yeah, so what do you think? What are we working with? Oh, smooth. Smooth. I mean, so this guy was once, he was once an elf, right? And then corrupted. And so we have the scarring on the face, but I can see that as like, you know, if he's well armored elsewhere when the scarring happens, the rest of him would be elven smooth, perhaps. Preserved. TM. Okay, so on your list of people who should have had

in this episode are you putting Adar and Galadriel on the list? So in real time watching the episode for the first time, of course my answer was yes. The vibes. Such vibes. Remember?

I actually think Adar has vibes. I think Adar has vibes with everyone. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's the glint in the eye and it's the gravel in the voice. Yeah. I mean, frankly, and the flow of the hair. It's all of it. Yeah. Um, I cannot, I cannot say that that is where I ended the episode, given that we see he is deceiving and working Galadriel. So no, I'm sad to say I no longer ship it. Um,

Though, you know, I hope that at some point Adar can find love. He's a big family guy. Talks about family often, you know. His children. Lots of stuff about his children. Yeah. And, you know, he's doing the single dad thing. So that's great. It takes a village, you know, to raise an army of orcs. And not just one battalion, but many. Okay. Like when he looks at Glug...

Yeah. And with his baby. Mrs. Glug. Yeah, Mrs. Glug. Baby Glug. Yeah. Do you think Adar's like, yes, I need that. No, I think he's like, Glug, fetch me my paraffin wax. I've got some dipping to do. As you mentioned, this is a trap. Adar is offering fellowship and an alliance as a trap that Galadriel just walks her back.

Pretty little awesome, incredible action as into much to my dismay. I just really need Galadriel to stop taking L's across the board because it's all she seems to do. And the way he says before he gets to that reveal, of course, he's talking to her about Sauron as he's sort of like coaxing her into fellowship with her. And he talks about Sauron in the way that we like to talk about where it's like he's both working the angles and

And telling a truth. Right. That's the Sauron playbook, by the way. But like, both can be true. And so he talks about Sauron as if it's both of their shitty ex-boyfriends. Right.

here's a couple of things about the language, right? He says the way one always is once he's warmed his way inside your head consumed, consumed is what he says. Um, there's this quote from fellowship of the ring where when Boromir is, I'm so sorry, uh,

absolutely losing it to the lure of the ring. And quote, Boromir sat muttering to himself, sometimes biting his nails, as if some restlessness or doubt consumed him. This idea of like the desire of the ring or the machinations of Sauron just absolutely eating away at someone. And we'll talk again about sort of

what happens to Frodo as, as we watch Kellobrimbor unravel, it's, it's, it's, I think useful to think about Frodo in the context of that. But let's, let's just listen to our guy, our smooth handed friend Adar talk about his ex-boyfriend and Galadriel's ex-boyfriend Sauron. But sooner or later, he sees you, not just who you are, but who you wish to be.

His eye bores a hole and the rest of him slithers in. For a while, he even makes you believe that his power has become yours. Irresistible power that makes every desire's fulfillment seem inevitable. An ocean of color against which everything else feels forever thereafter. Adol. Gray. Whoops! The rest of him slithers in? Promises, promises! Um...

what, what do we want to say about this? We want to say, we want to note, of course, his eye, like the singular eye, his eye bores a hole. Um, and then of course it feels, it feels like some mirror of Galadriel language that we always like to talk about that quote, where Galadriel says about Sauron, those many years later, quote, and he gropes ever to see me and my thought, but the door, but still the door is closed. So this idea of the Slytherin, um,

and the attempt, the ongoing attempt to slither back into, uh, Galadriel's mind, uh, or elsewhere if you prefer. Okay. Um, yes, I, I, um, I thought this conversation of like who resisted more successfully and when was interesting too, because it is true that Galadriel resisted Sauron as soon as she realized who he was. That is true. She did call

and called him Halbrand a time or two after it happens to the best of us. No way. But of course, when he was masked to her appearing as Halbrand, she was quite susceptible to that. And so when Adar was...

Part of Sauron's army, at least at the beginning, when we witness the stabbing in the back and we get to see him boast about it here, but when he described at the beginning of this season his creation, he talked about facing Sauron for the first time as this... Yeah, and like a savior, right? I saw it, his servant's face, Sauron's face, and it was beautiful. He offered me wine, red wine,

As a blood moon, he offered me wine on that dark and nameless peak. I drank it. I drank it all. So the resistance came on delay. Whether he cares to remember it or not. If I'm considering the conquests of...

Annatar, who was Sauron, who was also Halbrand. I think it goes, the string of X's go Adar, Galadriel, and now we've rolled on to Celebrimbor with a side of Merdania, right? Like that's the trail of tears that he is like sort of leaving behind him. And I think that Adar is very much with someone who was seduced into his thrall and then rebelled. So yeah, yeah.

I like they underline this thing that we've been talking about, this idea that Sauron actually doesn't lie that often.

Sure, he might make you think that people are doing needlepoint in the courtyard of your bucolic beautiful city of Regia when in fact the wolves are licking the cradle. But oftentimes he's telling the truth. And so he promised at our children and children he delivered and he promised Galadriel an army and she has no.

there are legions of elves gathering to go after Sauron, which is what Galadriel wanted from the very beginning of the show. So careful what you wish for to a certain degree, but also just the way in which he wraps his manipulation inside of truth. He will do the same to Celebrimbor in this episode. This is the other side of the great, like, figure out what they fear. Yeah. It's figure out what they want, right? As in, we love to track this and like,

you know, hearing this description here about that who you wish to be idea, like, was very striking in that respect, too, because that gets at, like, that

maybe thing inside of you that you're not always willing to or able to confront, right? Something like hidden and lying in wait. And so, you know, thinking back to, again, like the log scene, keep it with me always, bind it to my very being, the look they shared after that was voiced, but then also the pitch he made in the finale in season one. And her crowned in the raft sort of mirror image. You bind me to the light and I bind you to power. Mm-hmm.

And Galadriel, as we meet her in Fellowship of the Ring, is still unsure of how much of a pull that pitch has on her. Right? She passes the test, but kind of barely, it feels like, even those many years later. It's a tense moment. So he's bonding, talking about their mutual ex, but then he also brings out the bling. The Morgoth's crown comes out to play. Yes.

And we talked about some Morgoth crown lore when it first showed up in the premiere. But just a quick reminder to say what I love here is they do a little sort of like wink to the people at home who are like, wait,

I thought Morgoth's crown was destroyed. That's what Galadriel said. And he's like, there's many stories about this, which is like sort of similar to the way that they had like Kiernan shave his beard and have the beard, but then shave the beard. It's sort of like the show finds a way to have it both ways. And so, yeah, there's many stories about Morgoth's crown, but I saw the Silmarils get pride from their settings. And I was there when Sauron refired it to fit himself. And yeah,

I mean, should I read the same quote from Sam? We've done it many episodes in a row, so perhaps I should not. But one of our favorite moments from Two Towers is when Sam's talking about Morgoth's crown and the similes that were taken from it. And that's the passage that ends in one of our favorite quotes, don't the great tales never end. So here's Morgoth's crown back in action as part of the long tale that still involves Sam and Frodo headed into Mordor with only the light to guide them.

Adar wants the rings because he believes, and I don't know why, who told him this? It's not like he's looking into a palantir. That rings plus crown, surely this time, rings plus crown is the formula he needs to take down Sauron. Any thoughts about this? I guess if we think about what pushed him to revolt,

And it was not a lack of belief in the power that Sauron was seeking to forge. It was the fact that he was willing to sacrifice the Uruk, the children, in pursuit of it. And so, you know, it makes sense to me that Adar would believe in that power and make through hubris the same mistake that so many other characters do.

Which is... Well, I can get this right. I can figure out how to put a few powerful things together and use it to ensure my end is achieved. And I can...

use the fact that that outcome is, to me, in my mind, possible to justify anything I do. And I like that we get to see, like, nominal heroes and nominal villains make a version of that same mistake. It's fun when there's a through line between the characters who are in some way opposed to each other, which is very literally the case. This is in some way, I mean, not the parrot with the crown part, but like...

When Elrond at the beginning of the season is like, we simply cannot use these rings and I will pull a Richard Kimball to prove it to you how serious I am about this. Gil-Galad and Galadriel are just rooted in the, you know what, let's use the rings. Gil's like, you left us absolutely no choice. We have to use the ring. It's like, you got there in a hurry. Everyone wants to use the rings, right? That's the great unifying thing. And so the few characters who can resist the pull end up being the heroes of the tale. More exceptional, yeah.

I'm going to quote your friend of mine, Rob Mahoney, who on our Slow Horses episode this week says it's cuffing season. It's shackling season here on Rings of Power. We've got Galadriel in shackles and Elendil in shackles inside of the same episode. I do want to shout out Galadriel's sparkly outfit, which I think is...

Absolutely beautiful inside the gloom of this tent. They put like a shaft of moonlight on her at all times. So she was just sort of like sitting there, a Spock wing diamond, like the whole interaction.

But as good as she looks, my babe Galadriel gives up the goods so fast and in such detail. And I am just appalled by what happens here. Unnecessary detail. Unnecessary detail. Painful! Elrond is in Linden with an army of elves and Nenya, my ring.

Then she says, she says together, Uruk, you and I will eradicate all traces of Sauron. She said Uruk. He corrected her a little earlier. That was a little bit more season one odd hours thing, but I'm so happy to see it back because it's one of our favorite bits. And I thought Sam Hazelden did a great job with it. And yeah, so she's using the language. She is making this play for Alliance for Fellowship.

But it was a trap. And one I wish she had seen coming, honestly. But here we are. So on that front, saying Orok, the path to an alliance, do you read this as, again, it's mere moments after that we see that this is not to be, but in this brief moment where it seemed possible,

Do you read this as an actual moment of enlightenment and moral progress? I mean, we heard her in the sixth episode of last season say, your kind is a mistake made in mockery. And even if it takes me all of this age, I vow to eradicate every last one of you. Do you think that she has ceased to feel that way about it or that she knows what is necessary as a verbal concession in order to get the thing that she is

is pursuing here. I don't know if she's going to switch back from Muggleborn to Mudblood as soon as next week's episode happens. I don't know.

Um, but I'd like to think that the pitch of you're not so, we're not so different. You and I, that he, I mean, it is a betrayal, but it is also true. And that moment of seeing and being seen and is very few people that like have experienced the thrill of being that close to Sauron, which makes the rest of the world feel dull and gray by comparison. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. There is a shared understanding that could be a larger bridge. Maybe I like that.

I will say it's been a little confusing this season to track who is perceptive about what is Sauron's plan and what isn't. Between Elrond and Galadriel, I feel like it just keeps bouncing back and forth, sort of who's onto him and who's not. But whatever mistake she's made in terms of revealing information, she is dead to rights correct that Sauron has summoned Adar's army here to attack Eregion because that's something he wants. Right.

So she's sort of like shrieking, this is his plan. This is what he wants. And again, it's shackling season. Adar says to bind her. We love use the word bind in all of this. You're thinking about the log. I'm thinking about the log. That's just what we do here. But I really wanted to ask you what you make of this uncertain look that Glug gives Adar.

Adar as he hands him what I'm calling the Horn of Winter. We see the Machines of War gathering, the trebuchets are lining up. But I'm curious if they're planting the seed of orc unrest because we get the deserters with Erandir at the beginning. And what the deserters say that Erandir overhears with his elf ears is, anything's better than dying to help Adar chase a ghost.

And then our guy Glug, a family man who has been expressing like concerns and doubts about the plan from the beginning looks quite uncertain here. So are we, are we about to see Adar get the treatment he gave Sauron, which is mutiny essentially? Like, do you think that's what we're heading towards?

Yeah, so this feels to me very emblematic of what you were describing at the top of the pod when sketching out the spoiler warning of like, there's a... We know certain outcomes. Like, we know when we watch the trilogy that the orcs fight for Sauron. That's not a spoiler. That is just a reality of the universe. We have a lot of blanks to fill in about how we get there. And so, like, this feels... You know, one of the things we were like, huh...

What's the explanation for this early in the season was why did Albran go to Mordor and say, like, free my people and just do things exactly the way that he did? And one of the things that we speculated about was, like, is this part of, like, a quest to get that army, which, like, is now apparently the case, right? Yeah.

I think that that is all now clicking a little bit more for me in terms of Argyle Glug and the orcs who crossed Erandir's path in the woods. I do think what you're sketching out seems right to me. I think that it also feels very connected to this larger through line of like,

Sauron's not lying. He's giving people what they want, right? And so I feel like the thing we have to be building toward is not him stealing this army. It's winning the army. He has to win them, right? And so like, Adar...

time and again that these are his children. This conversation that they had about home was very interesting when he like confronts Galadriel on this idea, right? Like again, where we have different character sets who are pursuing very different things, ultimately talking about the same idea, the pursuit of home, a place where we can be safe, where we can be at peace. If his particular quest for vengeance is,

those words into more of a platitude. Platitude! Then, oh, took me back to Secret Invasion there for a second. What a journey. In reality. I just need the bad babies to know that Mallory often texts that word in all caps with exclamation marks to make us, to make sure that Secret Invasion is fresh always in our minds. Right.

But I haven't heard it in a minute, so I'm delighted to hear it again. Did it take you back? Yeah. Some fond memories of covering our favorite MCU show there. The best MCU show. But yeah, so if you see this powerful, mighty thing in front of you and you're like, I don't know, is that so bad? Look what I have over here.

Maybe that's what we're going to watch in the next... I don't know. What the speed will be. Are they going to change sides in the middle of the battle? Is it building toward that outcome over time? Before the end of the season? Is this a season three thing? I mean, the thing about Adar, again, this is a... If you prefer a show-invented character. So, yeah, we know he's not around in later events. But we don't know how...

No idea. Yeah. And so this is the first time that I've been like, oh, is he going to be betrayed by his own children? And that's the, the, the absolute tragedy of Adar that like he couldn't get, he, he like Galadriel couldn't stop chasing Sauron. And what's the cost of that? And will Galadriel eventually put up her sword and, and have the victory that way that she, that in letting Sauron go, uh,

who was Halbrand, she gets to live to chill in Lothlorien. You know what I mean? So... Yeah. I like this... Like, again, I really like that because these through lines in between and these parallels between Galadriel and Adar are so compelling to me. Like, you know, she is a character who...

Genuinely believes that she knows Sauron best. Adar also thinks that he knows Sauron. He's so proud when he reveals that he has pieced together that Halbrand is Sauron and that she confirms it, right? And...

Like, the thing is, typically when a character who's like, I'm the smartest, I see clearly what other people are missing, we're being primed for them to make mistakes. And certainly, as you've noted, these characters are making mistakes. But the thing is, it's true. Like, she does actually know him best. When she said at the beginning of the season...

he's not going to stay in Mordor. That's not what he's after. Right. Like, he doesn't need armies. He needs rings. And, well, I guess also he needs an army. A little slight amendment there. Update. Draft one, draft two. Here we go. Edit. Suggesting mode. But she was like, well, Sauron's like, why do I have to choose? Right? Yeah, exactly. I figured out a way to do both. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And like, so then again, the fact that they're both very much in the like...

we can use the ring. She's happy to tell him that... The look on... We like to talk about the looks on faces and the way she looked when she turned and said, Nenya. Yeah. My ring. My ring. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. It's satori-ing. She's like, any ring that he's touched has to be destroyed. Not by Nenya, though. He didn't touch it, so it's fine. And this was striking to me because...

When she said that great conversation, that fight, that harrowing exchange with Elrond in the first episode, like what so frightens you, you cannot consider the possibility of their corruption. Because in my heart, I know the Three Rings are free of his influence. What are you like? Think of how much has happened since then. And her position in that respect is unchanged. We have to destroy everything, but not these.

Anything that he has touched has to go. But this is fine. Like, that certainty is unflinching, which is astonishing given the horrors that are unfolding. Speaking of horrors, let's go down deep into Khazad-dûm with Durin and Disa. Unless there's anything else you want to say about your guy Adar and further speculation on the smoothness of his skin elsewhere on his person. No? Should we do it? No, I look forward to...

Hopefully having more reason to discuss that in subsequent episodes. I hope Otter's around for like, now I am after this conversation, like ready. I'm now I'm worried that he's going to like die next week or something. I hope, I really hope that's not the case. I hope he's around for a little bit longer. I would love to have him at least make it to season three. We know he's not making it all the way, but I, I would love to have him in season three, but I am mentally preparing myself for he's a two season villain and done.

Because we've got a lot of stuff to do before the end of this story that they're trying to tell here. Okay. Durin, Disa, other Durin, and the Mines. Everyone's on the verge of collapse here, essentially. Overheard in Khazad-dûm. Put your beard into it.

I liked it. Oh. I'm sorry I liked it. Great stuff. It doesn't mean anything, but I liked it. Great stuff. We'll see hordes of gold being dumped on the ground, just piles of it everywhere. Very smoggy, very like, you know. Yeah. And,

so I just thought I would give a little like update on what exactly these seven rings are supposed to be doing to the dwarves. Currently, this comes from the appendices, uh, from Lord of the Rings quote, the only power over them, the dwarves that the rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things so that if they lack them, all other good things seemed profitable.

And they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprive them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind of, to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will. For the same reason their lives were not affected by any ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it. And I think we see that in this episode where Doran is consumed by this greed and

But King Doran is consumed by this greed, but he can still say no to Annatar when Annatar's like, give me the mithril. I mean, he's bargaining. It's like a long bargain is his plan. Because he's so greedy. He's holding out for more. Yes, but he's not just saying yes to anything that Annatar says, right? So I think that that distinction is important. And that idea of like wrath and desire for vengeance, when we see him like,

toss his son across the room, like that's obviously very, quite upsetting. Yes. Do you want to talk about Thomas's email about the son in, in Casa Doom? I kind of do. Sure. Okay. So last week we were pointing out that Dorian and his like big speech, uh, where they're like Casa Doom, right? He was talking about unlike the, the top siders, uh,

who are slaves to the cycles of the sun. We down here can control the sun, control the earth. We control the sun. We tell it what to do. And you and I were like, it still sets sometimes though, right? Yeah. So our listener Thomas had a sort of like interesting middle ground idea, which is that given the way that the mirrors work,

If you're farming underground, which again, maybe, I don't know, find a patch of land on the top of the mountain to farm. But if you have to farm underground and you've got these mirror systems that are reflecting the light,

You can control where that light is as long as the sun is up in the sky by tilting the mirrors one way or another, right? So they can control how much the sun hits that crop or that crop in the hours that the sun is sort of above the horizon. But I think Thomas will still have to agree with us that at a certain point,

You have to have light in order to reflect light. And at a certain point, the sun sets. So, you know, Papa Doran's claims are overblown. But perhaps there's like a grain of truth here to them from Thomas. Anything you want to say about that? You know, I hope that he still, Papa D, still...

it in him moving forward to make outlandish claims in front of his non-voting public because frankly, I worry that he won't have it in him anymore as he sits there among his treasure hoard and inches ever closer to Gollum saying my precious to the ring. It belongs to me. It belongs to me. It's a

It's an interesting place. Great stuff for Peter. Peter Mullen and Charles Edwards, both completely unhinged this episode. Great stuff. Do you want to address the email that we got from Lindsay and Maria about names? Sure. Lindsay and Maria have chimed in with frankly, an excellent suggestion. Might I suggest?

Sunny D to go along with Papa D, not to be confused with Sunny D-S-U-N-N-Y. The high fructose corn syrup beverage of our youth. Thank you for that excellent idea. We will be incorporating it immediately. And let me just say this. No free ads here on the House and Bar, however. It's my pleasure to tell you that when I was young,

My bloodstream was basically just Sunny D with a little dribble of Capri Sun mixed in. I would guzzle this by the carton full. And, you know, as a child of divorce, this was always a big thing. Like, which fridge had the newest...

of Sunny D. You know, they would put out some different, some like tweaks on the flavors. Oh, okay. Oh, well, yeah, that too. Yeah. Which of my parents have stocked the fridge with what snack in order to entice me? SpaghettiOs, Sunny D, some Pop-Tarts. Just somebody's lot.

Chocolate fudge brownie Ben and Jerry's ice cream. This is basically all and Dunkaroos and string cheese. Basically all I ate when I was a kid. It's like a miracle that I'm standing here today to do this podcast with you. I'd like to correct the record. I'm not standing. I'm sitting leaning at a real curve. So perhaps this is all connected. Slightly wilting. Yeah.

I was never allowed to have Sunny D growing up. And the first time I had it was in college in like, I think like a jungle juice concoction. And I was like, I was like, Oh, I've been waiting my whole life for some Sunny D. And I was like, Oh yeah, this is not very good. Um,

Interesting. But I bet I would love to. If I had had it as a kid, I would have loved it, but I didn't. But I would watch those commercials with great My Precious Envy because these brads and chads on their skateboards would come home and open the fridge and there'd be a big plastic bottle of Sunny D and they would just chug it straight out of the fridge in the commercials. And I wanted that to be me. Were you enjoying Capri Sun or no? No. We were a...

We were a skim milk and water household, which makes it sound like I grew up in like a Dickensian boot blacking factory. But we were a skim milk, water, and if you're really good for a treat, you can have a Hanson's natural soda. So, yeah. Mandarin orange. Yeah. I was not allowed soda or anything like that growing up. Boy.

But I think... You used to drink A&W root beer by the fucking tankard. All right. So speaking of tragedies of our youth. No. So Anatar's like, we're doing this slightly out of order because we're going to do all the Eregian stuff together. So of course there's like a setup in Eregian that sends Anatar over to Khazad-dum and he shows up.

I didn't summon you. He did. Drama. Annatar, nothing but dramatic entrances and flat iron waves in this episode. His new costume is like the most I'm evil thing I've ever seen in my life. It's really funny. I wonder if Kel Brimbor ever would have fallen for it if he had opened with black feathers on his shoulder. Like an evil crow. Annatar says, we need more Mithril. We need it now.

I can cut down so many trees. Timber for your platforms, timber for your mineshafts. And Mallory, what do you think Tolkien would have thought of Sauron's offer to clear cut the forests of Eregion to help the mining practices of Khazad-dûm? I think he'd have some notes and some feedback. I think we'd bring the Ents back in to make some beautiful speeches. But what was really interesting to me about this is that

Elrond offered this but more? And they said no. Like in the seventh episode last season, he offered timber from the Elder Forest for the next five centuries just for the Mithril. Yeah. And like, like absolutely not, right? So I feel like

And Sauron knows that. Okay, but did Elrond... So he has no intention of this panning out. Okay, so you think he was never actually after Mithril in the first place. He cannot... Well, no, I think he needs the Mithril, but I don't think he believes that Durin will say yes to this. And so maybe it's part of this, like... Because of the look on his face as he's leaving, he's like... He does have the weird fire flare moment, which we'll talk about, but like...

Yes, they've fallen into my trap. Is what almost every look to camera Charlie Vickers gives in this episode is like the little smirk.

with his like overly blushed cheeks glowing. Yeah. Like we talked, I think maybe it was a couple of weeks ago about the, you know, he's the great innovator, right? And he's always ready to pivot. So there's like, there could be some of that in any situation, but the fact that like what we do immediately witness with Papa D and Sunny D, let me tell you something, said it for the first time and it felt fucking right. It felt great. It felt good and right. Thank you again. Um,

if this is going to lead to a further breach between them and a continuing cascading for Papa D into the depths of his greed, then that ultimately serves Sarah. That benefits him. So either he gets what he wants or he gets a further... That was my sense, is that he actually wanted the myth rail and then when it didn't work out, he's like, that's okay. I got plans within plans within plans. I have an update to my... So you and I both had the same reaction to...

Sauron looks over at this like brazier with some fire in it and it sort of like flares as he gets the news that he's not going to get the Mithril he wants. And you and I both were like, what are we looking at? And re-watching it, I'm like, did that look like a little mini Balrog to you? A Balrogito is what I have put in the notes. But like, and I'm not saying that is a Balrog. I'm just saying a little like, it's a little reminder to him that there's a Balrog sitting in the basement. Yeah. And like,

He doesn't need to worry about taking care of the dwarves that Balrog will. Like, does that... Not the only... Adar's not the only one who can send DMs? Like, a little... I don't know. I was, like, frame by framing it, trying to understand what I was looking at. And that was the best I could come up with. Yeah. That it was, like, a little fire demon. Balrogito is great. I love it. The only thing I could...

I feel like I'm going to be immediately proven wrong and sound really dumb for saying this, but that's fine. The only thing I could land on here was because the,

Sometimes things happen and you're like, ooh, interesting. I want to theorize. But this wasn't quite that. This was like our attention was directed to this moment. Yes, a camera hold on the fire. And then, so when the thing, Balrogito, kind of rises in the flame, I'm like, oh, is that the mithril powder that he later hands over to Celebrimor? Did he like pull it out?

And then just sort of like carefully instantly into his beautiful crystal container that he uses to give it to Hilbert more later. I mean, we don't know where that... Because he's working a lot of magic in this episode. We don't know where that Mithril powder came from. That's true. We have no... Like, yada, yada, yada. Here's some Mithril powder that I got in RV to grind down for you. And we're like, did you? I feel like we would have seen that. So...

I don't know what it's, it seems on the one hand insane to say they're like just kind of casually using this precious thing to light the throne room. But would anything surprise you from Papa D at this point? I don't know. And that's, that brings us to our next point, right? Where he talks openly about war profiteering, right? Wars coming to middle earth. And guess what? We got, we got the WMDs and everyone's going to be knocking on our door to get our me thrill. Right. Um,

I just want you to pause and say, I have maybe very rarely in my life been as unsettled as I was by Peter Mullen as Papa D's delivery of the whole world's gone mad. Because you can make a bunch of choices with that. He went with this like absolutely terrifying grin that I will be thinking about for a very long time. How did you feel about that?

Oh, it was it was chilling. And then that next line, but it is to us to grip it by the throat like that to go back to that idea of violence or something. I mean, that's violent. Like that, that comment, that idea, that pursuit, that that desire certainly fits into another season long theme and story wide theme we track of like control. Right. What do you want to control? Just the entire world.

Just everyone and everything who might ever want anything will hold them by their throat so that they cannot breathe or live unless by our charity. Like, that's horrifying, right? And, you know, in terms of just the way that the greed is driving him, it's... When we think of the extent to which we are witnessing this dissent, like, in the same episode last week, so yeah, fifth episode last week,

He had that great line. Papa D had that great line to Sunny D. In thousands of years, we have barely taken a thimble from the ocean of her riches. And then we heard Sunny D say in Eregion, greed is not his way. It never has been. This is why he's so alarmed, because he's witnessing something in his father that he is not accustomed to seeing. Now, the idea of the ring unlocking something that was already there. Enhancing.

and enhancing that, right? But, okay, so like, thimble from the ocean of her riches. First of all, gorgeous language, as we discussed. But like, the reason I bring it up is because they don't need anything.

Right. It doesn't mean they don't need friendship and fellowship and love, but they don't. He doesn't need to be charging ring tribute from his own people. He doesn't need to be bartering with the emissaries of the other lords to say, if you want one of these rings, you have to give me half of what's yours. Right. It is purely because he can. Yes. And so that is the fact that he is driven purely by want and not actually by need.

people do dangerous things for need, but this is scarier ultimately because it's completely elective. It is. Well, yes, there is that want, but I do think there's still the factor of need and the need is the vulnerability for King Doran, who was the one in season one who was like, best not delve too deep. Gotta, gotta be careful. Yeah. And certainly not too greedily. No, certainly not. You know, which caused him to have a, a, a,

Not as violent, but a somewhat violent interaction with his own son. Like, they had a version of this conversation in season one. So if you want to talk about enhancing and plussing, you know, it's like ripping the collar off of him versus throwing him across the room. But the...

The need is the vulnerability that the quake left them in in the mountain, the need to provide for his people, provide sunshine. And the ring is what sort of drove him to that. But to your point, I mean, like if he stopped here,

they would be fine. And now he just like, can't because I feel like per the, the Sauron equation, once you felt that fear, that absolute terror and lack of control of like, oh my God, our home could come crumbling down around us. You would do anything to avoid feeling it again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I, this is, um, now this is, I'm thinking about this through the, the, the add our prompt you offered up earlier too, because it's like, I want to protect my children at all costs. Well, will the decisions you make in order to do that lead to them abandoning you? You want to preserve and protect your home and your people at all costs. You do whatever you can to make sure they have what they need. And then you start charging them a ring tribute so that they're

heaping piles of gold at your feet. Is he thinking right now about what they need or is he thinking about what he can tell them he gave them? And those, the facts on the ground might be the same, but the distinction in his perception and what he feels he's gaining from it is like all the difference in the world. It's really fascinating to watch. I'm loving our time with Papa D.

I think it's expertly put together, this idea, what you're describing in a sense is a self-fulfilling prophecy of a kind, like this idea of in order to try to hold on to his children for fear of Sauron taking them away from him, in order to hold on too tightly to

he's going Adar's gonna lose them in one way or another we don't know how and in order to try to like hold on tightly to the security of the mountain um they're gonna dig and they're gonna dig and they're gonna dig and we know from fellowship of the ring they unearth the Balrog and that brings down all of Khazad-dum so uh not what you want hold things loosely let them go uh okay

The last section here is just to talk about Deesa and Doran and how poor Doran is, Sunny D, if you will, is reacting to being thrown across the throne room by his father. And again, like, OA and Arthur is, like, incredible in terms of Sunny D's, like, absolute... I can't call him that in this context. Doran's, like, absolute devastation. Yeah.

You know, he's still my father, right? He's still in there. Heart-wrenching. You know, you're talking about humiliating him, destroying him. And Deesa's getting her little, like, a little bit of her Lady Macbeth vibes back when she's like, we're going to take that fucking crown. But she's much more justified here than she was when we heard her talk about it at the end of season one. But it's still, like, a little...

A little whatever. But we are, I think, meant to be cheering for her when she calls down the bats against Narvi and the rest of them. And then Durin just like strolls in and is like, that was sick. What you just did. What do they not do? He says, oh, I love you. Right. And she says, love me later. Right. Like they don't. Yeah. They don't do it right then and there, which they should have. Right. Right.

because outrageous if you're gonna if you're gonna resonate of uh is it a flock of bats i don't that doesn't sound right um great question yeah if you're gonna resonate a a horde of bats to uh to scare off some people i would feel pretty badass and i would want to celebrate with my loved one and that's what diesel deserved in that moment she didn't get it

They didn't even smooch. There's not even a smooch. Oh, I love you. Love me later. No kiss. This season on Naughty at Island. When we were new, they spoiled me. They even gave me a phone. But then it's like I didn't exist.

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Love Me Later is pretty good. Love Me Later is fantastic. Let's go to a reggae. And Kelly Burpore, all on the verge of collapse, like the Binds themselves. Mallory, have you ever found yourself when you're perseverating deep into the night over the notes for the podcast and you've hit page...

35. Do you find yourself mumble-talking to the notes? Asking it, like, what pride is woven in your innermost self? Is that something? Should we be worried that Kilbermore is doing that? How do you feel? Our guy is having a very normal one. Yeah, real normal time. It's just like...

I found this absolutely riveting. I was ready to watch him in like a one man play to continue to speak this way. Ye rings of men. Why do you still defy me? You who live not.

Breathe not. Possess not. Mind no will. What pride. So... Pride. Actually, quickly, pride. A lot of pride mentions in this episode. Galadriel. Elendil. Yeah, Galadriel, Elendil. And peril when we hear from Disa after we just left Castle Dune. But we hear peril in the Disa storyline. We hear peril from Tom, obviously. So we're getting these...

These keywords, Pride and Peril. The Jane Austen sequel everyone's in clamoring for us to write. Oh, man. Colin Firth starring in Pride and Peril and he will once again emerge sodden from a body of water shirt sticking to him. Yes. A sight we were deprived of on the Elendil front this episode and I am still recovering. I'm

I'm dazzled by the way you were able to bring that back around to your number one agenda, which is...

Why did I get to see an extremely wet Elendil in this episode? Something that Mallory has been asking me every hour on the hour for the last 24 hours. Really thought it was going to be time. Alas, I was mistaken. So, okay, pride. Parallel. Notable. The general demeanor. Yeah. It's worrying. It's troubling. It's concerning. There's a rodent kind of making its way through. Yeah, a little sweet little mousey making its way through the den.

discarded, uh, that Papadi has his treasure heaps. Celebrimbor has his heaps of discarded would be rings for men. Um,

Obviously, seeing the rodent scurrying makes us think of our recurring appearances from Rats in the Red Keep and Thrones. We're going to be talking about Thrones comps quite a bit today, and this is certainly one of them. This is a mere drop in the ocean. In the netty ocean that's coming. I am quite... I'm concerned that our guy, Celebrimbor, seems to think...

it would be better if the rings were possessed of mind and will. That's troubling to me. But ultimately what I love about this is what are we witnessing here?

Right? How is this strip of metal that should be bending literally to my will? Yes. Alluding me, besting me. Yeah. The great Celebrimbor. And so it's a very important reminder that this is his base state. It's where we found him at the start. And it is the thing that Annatar, who is Sauron, will always be able to poke. And when he builds toward in this episode,

Best fan or not. Best yourself. It's because this is... Best yourself, my guy. One last time. Let's do it. Give it a go. Swing that hammer. Like, this is who Caleb Brimbor is. He is ripe for this manipulation. And it's who he's always... Because this is actually his desire. It's who he was when we very first met him. Again, like, this is just bringing out a quality that was inherent to him. Mardonia. Mardonia.

Who's like drinking the Anatar Kool-Aid pretty steadily. And Kelbermore doesn't do himself any favors in contradicting that narrative when he forgets her name. And this is like, as far as we can tell, again, I have so many questions about Mordania's, the org chart at Eregion sort of confounds me. Is she a smith?

Is she an assistant? Is she security? It seems like she does everything. A girl for all seasons. And we love that. We love a girl boss. So thank you, Merdonia. She definitely got that look from all the other Smiths. Like, we pre-gamed for this in Europe. So clearly they trust in her to be the one who...

says this thing. She's like, listen, we've noticed you've been ill-tempered and I liked the use of, I don't know if it was intentional, but I like the use of ill-tempered because tempering is obviously like something you do with precious metals. It's a metallurgy. And chocolate. You think they're going to go on Great British Bake Off after they finish making the nine? No soggy bottoms for our Guy Calabrese.

Brimbor. You are your most authentic self today. And I love that. We both started before we started recording. We're like, we're so tired. It's been, this always happens to us. We're our most unhinged. No matter how exhausted I am, no matter how foul of a mood I am in. Yeah.

Potting with you always makes me happy. It never fails to bring me joy. Okay. So as you were saying, no soggy bottoms for Kelli Brimber. No soggy bottoms. No soggy bottoms for Ellen Diehl either. And I'm sorry to report that to you. Sad. Tragic. Kelli Brimber, in response to this, Jo, he basically did the dramatic chipmunk meme. He's like, me? The way he turned. And his little curls. His little like sooty curls. Yeah, it was really funny. Sensational. Forgets Mardoni his name.

troubling. This was a tough team meeting for this group. Probably should have been an email, but that's okay. And in terms of like memory, the, the rings influence or Sauron's influence and memory, I thought we would pull this little quote from return of the King about Frodo. It's delivered a little differently and definitely with great gusto from Elijah wood in the film, but this is how it goes in the book.

No taste of food, no feel of water, no sound of wind, no memory of tree or grass or flower, no image of moon or star are left to me. I am naked in the dark, Sam, and there is no veil between me and the wheel of air. I begin to see it even with my waking eyes and all else fades.

So that's our guy Frodo. Go right at the end of all things. You know, right after this in the movie, Sam's like, I can carry you. Okay, it's time. I can carry you. Right? That's it. We've had it. Naked in the dark. Oh, no. Naked in the dark. Naked in the dark. I always want him to like list other things he can't remember at that point. You know? Like what? Naked in the dark. But I can't remember how it felt to wink.

Well, like, well, why not? We're in the extended cut already. Keep going, Frodo. No? Yeah. Can I tell you a true story? I promise this transition here is not going to be as concerning as it might have seemed. I forgot to tell you this. So the most recent rewatch, this stretch of the film, when Sam and Frodo are, you know, tracking. Yeah. Oh, it's so hard. It's so heavy. Fuck these pots and pans. Adam turned to me and he was like,

you walk like that sometimes. I was like, you're, I mean, you're a fast walker. That's my experience with you anyway. You're a brisk walker. I think he's referring to me like, just like, oh, around the house. Oh, the pain. Oh, God. Got it. Yikes.

All right. We already talked about Annatar and his look in the Casa Doom section, but I just want to say the absolute entrance that this man makes into the room to tidy up Celebrimbor's mess, right? To play good cop with the Elven smiths and be like, take a break. Don't worry about it. I'll take care of the senile old man. It's fine. But he's resplendent in black.

Gold, new wig, much better wig. So much better than last week's wig. Very good. And we saw this look in trailers. I think this is the look that was on the posters too. So I've been waiting for it. But when I saw it in promo images, I was like, how does anyone not think he's evil if he's dressed like this? And I didn't realize that he was walking around like this.

you know, angel Jesus for the first few episodes. And then he switched into the black velvet's and the gold's, but, um, glam evil drag for Annatar, uh, does a little, little, a harmless bit of fun gaslighting with the hammer bit, the crease hammer. Yeah. You mean that hammer right there? It's right there. I got, Oh, my heart broke for Kelly Brimbor here. Genuinely broke. We get the iconic. I am. Well, I'm just fatigued. Wonderful stuff. Well,

I am well. I'm just fatigued. I'm just fatigued. He's just so worried about his own decaying state. It's like, Mardonia. It's so sad. And what's so sad, what I really like, the way this is played, is he's like, Mardonia. Her name's Mardonia. And then later, Mardonia's like, oh my god, is he mad about the name thing? I'm not that mad. He's firing me. I'm not that mad about it. If they could just talk to each other.

They could reconcile, but it is Anatar who is Sauron. I don't know if you knew that, but Anatar is also Sauron and it is his way to divide and conquer and cause division. So then he says this tremendous thing, right? Which I think any sort of workaholic can relate to, couldn't be us.

You're going so deep into it. Coming out again has become an incredible burden. So deep, I imagine, at times. You must be tempted simply to stay there a while. Gain some clarity. So other than your enjoyment of the double deep references here. Yeah.

Do you relate to this when you are sort of in the zone on your pod prep or wherever else it might be? Sure, yeah. And I think, again, this is a master at work, right? Both Celebrimbor, but also Sauron, because what is he saying to him in framing it this way? You can't be expected to remember everything. You can't be expected to do everything. You're in so deep. He uses the word tempted, right? Tempted, that feels, of course, very deliberate. But the...

The way that he is seeking to soothe him here is by saying, the all-consuming nature of your genius and your particular pursuits must be tough to be as incredible and smart and committed as you are. So, like, of course, this is just more fuel for Celebrimbor continuing on. And, like, again, it's... We're, at this point in the episode, like, we're...

a total of an episode removed, you know, into half of the prior episode and part of this one from him refusing still steadfastly to make the nine. And now he and Rings for Men are BFF forever. They are like this. Until the nine are complete. Yeah.

nothing else matters. We're all in, we're focused. Now he's wavering. He's got moments where he's pulled out of that and the doubt consumes him. But, you know, what we have to remember is that the thing that pushed him to the edge last week was that like,

Why don't you go to your high king and tell him how badly you fucked up and the fear from Celebrimbor that he would be forever robbed of the ability to create, to actually genuinely make things that are meaningful, but also to then be told that he made things that were meaningful. To see the way that he improved people's lives. Exactly. Master him with it.

They must redeem us all was the order that he gave to the troops, to the minions, to the smiths last week. And so he's fighting for his own redemption because of the... We brought to seed into it with the letter, you know, manipulation about the Seven. And so, like, all of this, he's just...

The fact that he has, we have these moments where we see him shaking, quivering. Here's the pole, which we'll talk about soon. He does hear the war siren, wants to go. He, now I'm in your head, but the bells, don't let me hear the bells. He, well, Caleb Brimbor in this episode. Yeah.

middle school schoolyard shoves Sauron the Dark Lord into a fucking pillar. Yeah. Like he has moments of clarity. No, and that's what makes it all the more engaging to watch because if we just watched him be led by the nose and duped this entire time, it would just be boring and irritating. And this is like watching him as like, almost like, you know,

Like Sauron's a spider and he's a fly and he's been like caught in the web, but he's like struggling. And there's like maybe a chance that he could break free. And so you're captivated by this because you're like, is he going to wriggle free? And Sauron just keeps like looping the silk of the web around him tighter and tighter and tighter. And that is what makes this story and the writing of it. Because again, like, you know, to give Patrick and JD and the rest of the writers credit for this, like we know that Celebrimbor gets seduced by Annatar.

That's the bare bones of the story that we know. And it's their discretion as to how that plays out. And so what I really like about the show in terms of the psychology of Papa D, of Adar, of Celebrimbor, we're really thinking about like what, you know, and Galadriel, like what are the frailties of these personalities, of these hearts and minds that someone like Sauron could slither in?

and have his way with you so i love this reverse psychology right he says you are the lord of a ragged and you do have responsibilities again it would be like bad boring writing if he's like i'll take care of it that's not sauron's way he's like uh you have to do this stuff oh oh i should do it okay i'll do it i guess since you need me to but i it wasn't my idea so that's fine

Anyone want to pop by Sauron's office hours? Door's open. Door's always open. Then we get the bloody carved body, the jack-o'-lantern on the chest DM from Adar. It's giving Dolores Umbridge a message carved into the flesh. Oh my god, that's a lot of detention there. So...

pray he finishes this work before it finishes him is something that he says about Caleb, Caleb and board tumor Donnie. And when he's like first, before the body gets there, he's like, Hey, we're Donnie. Yeah. I think we should leave him alone. Maybe just like leave him alone. Don't bother him. He'll calm down. Everything will be fine. Um,

You can't talk about finishing like this in front of Merdanya. She's just in... She's just... You can't. It's not fair. Grasping her hand while he does it earnestly. The handhold was unbelievable. But pray he finishes the work before it finishes him. This is very much a top of mind for Sauron, right? Because as much as we can admire the machinations of his plan, which is unleash the armies of Adar and the Uruk on Eregion...

While it takes the time it takes for them to muster that, haul ass back to Eregion and get both the seven and the nine main. And maybe the one, I don't know if he's thinking about the one right now or if he's like, I'll do that myself later. But like, get the seven and the nine main.

Tick tock. Like the, the, like, you know, I think if Sauron had his brothers, he would be well done with an I, by now he did not mean to leave it down to the wire. So pray he finishes his work before it finishes. Him is something that he's like, we need to get this done. Yes. The wolves are licking at the cradle, right? Like they're here. We have to get this done. So. Right. Um, so yeah, where is he? And so this is at our letting, uh,

Sauron know that he knows who he is, right? Is that your interpretation of this? Yes, absolutely. And there's a lot of interesting stuff going on about who's saying what to whom and revealing what to whom. Like, that's a declaration, right? And, I mean, frankly, like, so is the fact that there are

so close because when Annatar is looking out at one point, like it's smirking, you can see the plumes of smoke. I've got some real, I know like we're going to talk about the, um, uh, the, the frankly lovely looking illusion that Annatar spins for Celebrimbor, but the rest of the citizens of Eregion are swept up

very soon in horror so they see what's really happening and yet I'm wondering where are all those elf ears and elf eyes that Aragorn was always talking about with Legolas like no one's I know he says here what do your elf eyes see and she's like only you baby that face just you baby those cheetahs

Just that new wig, baby. It looks so good. So he's controlling through isolation. Because it's interesting, again, to track these evolutions in short spans. You know, he wanted to enlist. He was the one who was like, I know your boss is freaking you out. Don't worry. We're going to get this project done. And like, now he needs them out of the room because of like, you're citing that the draft date clock is ticking, ticking, ticking. Yeah. Only so long until we say...

I was definitely thinking about the draft day. You pancake eating motherfucker. Yeah, the draft day clock. That was on my mind. We're on the clock. And so like, can I trust you to make sure the others respect his wishes as well? Of course, my lord. Well, the way that you win these mini alliances telling the Sentinel, tell no one of this. Very important.

That guy agrees to that. Now, I don't know if everyone should have needed to be told in order to sense this massive army waiting very close by. I had this later in response to the needlepoint and the snowy horses of the... But, like, let's read it now because your question is sort of like, how much of a grip does Sauron have on everyone here? And...

we don't know if he's at the height of his powers compared to, you know, certainly he's diminished physically by the time Lord of the Rings happens, but this is how he's, his sort of puppet master routine is described in Return of the King when Frodo puts on the ring and his eye sort of turns to Frodo, not his literal eye, but like, he's like, uh-oh, all eyes on these fucking hobbits. I didn't see them coming, right? But this is what happens. Quote,

From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars, his mind shook free. And throughout his realm, a tremor ran. His slaves quailed and his armies halted. And his captain, suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired, for they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the capital P power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the mountain."

So this idea that Sauron is like puppeteering has like 900 different schemes going at once that he is controlling, right? And we have seen this, you know,

Yeah. Whatever the ring is doing to Papa D is happening at the same time as the Barrow-Whites animating in the forest to stop the elves is happening at the same time as the bridge went out. It's happening at the same time as Merdonia is getting her hair fondled. Like all of this stuff is happening at once. And it requires, we see this sort of illusion magic from him.

There's also just strong psychological warfare that Sauron is constantly waging on all the people around him. This was not necessarily top of mind for him as Halbrand in season one. So we are really seeing it for the first time here in season two. And so it would not surprise me if every elf in Eregion was somehow under the control of Sauron at this point. Yeah.

You know, slice it open palms to, to juice the magic. We don't know. Power it up. Yeah. We don't know why he sliced his palm open, but nothing good could have come of it. And then like, there's nothing, there are no cuts or scars on his palm later. Right. Uh, so yeah. Okay. Kristen Cole didn't have to think of any of this when he sprung his trap. Yeah.

Sauron has to work so hard. We got a whole really... I didn't put in the notes. We got a really long email from someone being like, Kristen Cole is a perfect angel baby compared to fucking Kemen. I want Kemen to die in a fire. Oh, wow. I mean, compared to Kemen. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Okay. So...

There's two rivers and a wall around Eregion, as Gil told us at the beginning of the season, so I'm sure they will be fine. Don't worry about the massive balls of flame headed towards said wall. I'm sure everything will be fine.

I love that visual, not only because it just looked gorgeous, as the show often does, but the mirroring of the eruption, you know, Mount Doom's hurling those flaming boulders last season, like that parallel was visually very, very striking. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Um...

I already highlighted Peter Mullen's The Whole World's Gone Mad sort of line delivery, but I think the nonchalant how fair is your progress from Annatar to Celebrimbor. Wild. So good. And I just want to, I'm not going to read this whole passage, but I just found this like quote from C.S. Lewis. And actually we have a few things to say about Tolkien's BFF C.S. Lewis in this episode. But this is what he said. He says,

Because Milton's Satan is an inspiration for Sauron per Tolkien, right? So C.S. Lewis says, quote,

To make a character worse than oneself, it is only necessary to release imaginatively from control some of the bad passions which, in real life, are always straining at the leash. The Satan, the Yago, the Becky Sharp within each of us is always there and only too ready the moment the leash is slipped. So this idea of like, if you want to write Sauron, just think, you know, if you're Tolkien and you're like...

I'm smarter than most people around me, but I'm also a good Christian man and I'm not going to do ill. But in my fantasy, my power fantasy, I could puppeteer this whole world around me. And that's sort of part of what's going on here. This perfect depiction of the smiling villain in Annatar in this season. We noted in season one that Halbrand loved to use the word friend when he was really trying to turn it up.

And he tries that on Celebrimbor. And as you said, he says, my friend. And Celebrimbor's like, I don't want your friend. Bullshit. I hear the bells. Pushes him. Pushes him. Frankly, astonishing stuff. I honestly was like, I gasped when he pushed him. Gasped. I just could not believe it. But it was wonderful to watch. And then the...

The arm grab from Annatar. And then the threat, right? The seen and unseen world. We'll talk about this. This was a riveting sequence of...

of gaslight control master manipulation, right? Yeah. And all these threats wrapped in promises, right? He does the same thing to Kelber more than he did to Galadriel where he's like, I'll make sure everyone knows in the seen and unseen world that you are responsible for what's happening here. And then he says, you know, all these lies are just like

the truth, right? He says, for centuries, I sought to craft objects of great power. I came to Eregion not because the Valar needed you, because I did. True. All true. Then he has the Mithril Powder and you and I are baffled and we don't know how it got there, but I'm sure we'll find out.

I like this like real Lord of Gifts imagery of him holding the container with the Mithril and the, and the Fanor's hammer behind his back. And he's like, here's some gifts, buddy. I got you a shiny hammer and some powdered Mithril and we're going to make some rings. Aren't we? Everything's fine out here. There's horses and needle point and everything is beautiful. Nothing hurts. Um,

Yeah, this was really... It was cool to see also, like, because we had heard this described, right? Gil tells Gal in the second episode of the season, it is said that once the deceiver obtains a being's trust, he gains the ability to sculpt their very thoughts, to deceive not only their heart and mind, but their eyes and ears to alter their very reality. So to really get to see what that looks like and how it could affect you and how it could dupe you and deceive you, very interesting. And then speaking of deception...

So who knows where the Mithril came from, whether it came from the torch of fire or that was Palragito TBD, but it's been in it. But it seems safe and fair to say that no matter what the actual answer is,

deception is at play. Oh, yeah. And so it's interesting, right, on the heels of the conversation in the last episode about letter, and obviously that was part of his game and his manipulation, but even so, it's like we brought, it's matters of spirit. It's not just about the craft. What do you bring into the process? And so I was thinking, like,

they were given the Mithril for the other rings. They were. And so if they were not given the Mithril for this and he took it without it being offered, is that then even an extra layer of deceit poured into the nine? Like, are we starting to see how the fall of man with the nine is like an even fouler thing than what we witness elsewhere? Oh, I love that.

Argy Sauron, your fave, your favorite person of all time. No, before he does the Night King arms. Incredible Night King moment. Just amazing. Just add hard home. Before he does the Night King arms, and even before he does the slow-mo walk to camera with his new and improved wig sort of billowing in the wind, he gives this speech to Celebrimbor, which I thought was masterful. Upon my immortal being,

When the history of this age is written, the Silmarils, they will merit little more than a whisper. And your rings, the rings of power, they will be deemed the most precious creations in all Middle-earth. Do not turn back now at the very moment your boots are kissing the threshold. Use it, my friend. Best, Feanor. Best yourself. One last time.

Sign me up. He got me again. I see why it works. Was it the pepper that he put on the word precious? Yes. Yes, definitely. It's a big precious peril and pride episode. Okay. My goodness. I loved this because this is such a funny, this is such a funny meta commentary on the fact that like,

everyone knows Lord of the Rings and very few people read the Silmarillion. So I just thought that was like a really fun sort of like, no one really cares about the Silmarils. It's all about the rings of power, which is true. I also, when you listen to, okay, the ring theme that you hear in the background, right? I mentioned on our music Tolkien episode, once I have lyrics to something, all I can hear was like three rings for Elven Kings, like sort of repeating behind that, that little monologue there.

And then just the accent work from Charlie, because like it's so startling to think about that. This is the same person who said it's Galadriel here, like at the end of last season. Right. So, yeah. Then we get the slow motion camera, the Night King arms and and here comes the army. So, yeah. Battle time. Battle time. I'm excited.

Are you like, so are you wanting like a full battle episode? Is that what you want next week?

I mean, I feel more invested in this battle that we've been building toward here in Eregion than I did heading into the Southlands showdown last season. I think that this has the chance to be quite... Because it was not just going to be about the battle, right? There are so many relationship dynamics and character choices that feel like they...

should and can and will be entwined with whatever the action set pieces are. So I'm looking forward to it. Then I'll be despondent that we only have one episode left. I don't want it to be the entire episode because then we will be, again, just away from a lot of characters for a while. Well, yes. I mean, presumably Elrond, if not Elrond and Gil-Galad, are headed this way. Yeah. Arandir is on his way. Arandir.

Galadriel's right there. Is Elrond swinging by for help? Oh, Durin, the dwarves. Yeah. Right, because we saw in the trailer he says, I need your hammer. That's in a trailer for the beginning of the season. Yeah. Okay, so here's my question on that. Yeah. After what we saw in this episode. Does Durin...

not say yes to Elrond because he's so afraid of what will happen if he's not there. I mean, he's been leaving all the time, but like going for a quick chat is different than maybe going for battle. Or does he go and then

Things fall apart. Yeah. When he's gone. That's a great question. When he was weeping, Joe, he was doing it in front of Elrond's tree. I know. Like they need to be together again. If I don't get that next week, I will throw something. I need Durin and Elrond together next week. Same. Okay. We take you now to King's Landing, aka the Iron Islands, aka Numenor. For a frankly, I'm not mad about it,

shocking Ned Starkification of Elendil here as he's on trial for treason, etc. Farazan, my guy Bells, everyone's most hated character, Kemen, and Earian are...

the only people in charge in Numenor, it seems. And this seems like an odd team, right? Thank you for saying this. It's his guy, Bells, his friend from out of town, Bells, who maybe they went to uni together, let's say. And then his shitty son and his shitty son's girlfriend, question mark. And that's the government of Numenor, I guess.

That's the administration. We really, I mean, if we're going Thrones, we need to fill out the small council a little bit here. Team of rivals, baby. Aeorian being basically like the number two, because it's very apparent that she is more, she is trusted more than Camus. Yes. Certainly. So she's like, I guess she's the number three. She was wait-listed at her ideal program a season ago. A shocking rise. A shocking rise for Aeorian. Oh my God. Um,

My guy, Bels, says... Yeah, great stuff from Bels. A real lore master in this episode. I love it. He's like consulting the tome. Oh, it checks out. They could do this. Speaking of thrones, I was waiting for... That was ample. I was waiting for a Pycelle-esque, ooh, ponderous tome. But no, we didn't get it. Carrying it around the whole time. He says, Elendil, son of Amandil, do you renounce your crimes? We talked about this before, like,

Anytime you invoke the sort of like Aragorn son of Arathorn, uh, Gimli son of Gloin, uh, sort of language, we enjoy it. But, um, invoking Amandil, his father is interesting here because as we've mentioned, the timeline on this show is really smooshing the second age, uh, into a few years instead of, uh, the many hundreds of years that it was. And, uh,

In the more stretched out timeline, Amandil, Elendil's father, is really good friends with Farazan. Until things start to go a little weird with Farazan. And then, as you saw in this episode, he's getting hooked on Palantir visions. Like, it's not going well for our guy. And so Amandil's like, um...

Maybe no, maybe our friendship's over. Maybe I don't like this anymore. But once upon a time, they were really good friends. Great stuff. Talk me through what you and I both independently believe to be the Ned starfication of Elendil in this trial scene and then in the jail sequence.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of thrown stuff throughout, like you said, the whole Numenor stretch of this episode. Like, a lot of it is rooted in the Ned Varys sans of it all, but I was waiting for Littlefinger to pop up and say, I did warn you not to trust me right here at the start because, like, just the positioning, right? And the reason that he is there. It's like, do you renounce your crimes? Okay, but are you willing to say, like,

that I'm the roller. And that's what obviously was, uh, uh, the Joffrey's legitimacy. Right. And, and, uh, Farazan, uh, I love thinking about Farazan as the, the insecure Joffrey figure here. Um,

We get a fascinating conversation and a series of chances for Elendil to repent. He does part of it, but not the second part, right? He is willing to say, this is the crime, sure. I did a treason. Oops. I did a treason. But he's not going to say that Farazan is the rightful ruler and Mariel is not. So as we track the parallels to Ned and Thrones, that's a big difference, right?

in this episode, we do not see Elendil ultimately get to the point of saying, sure. Maybe if he are in higher and like use the P word pride, which seems like a trigger for him. Yeah. Cause she looked like she was like when she threw herself into his arms and they were like clinging to each other and crying. Yeah. It was very emotional. It was very, I felt like she was close to getting him to do what she wanted to do. And then she said the wrong thing. Yeah. She really,

She really blew it. So the Joffrey comps, and we don't get any soft hearts. They have the soft hearts of women. Sadly, we're deprived of that great moment in the history of story there. Aeorian, in the...

Sansa-ish role, this is also like a comp that's not totally a comp, right? Because she does beg for mercy for her father, but he doesn't ultimately cow in order to save her. And while they do have that emotional embrace, I would say ultimately he comes down on like really disappointed in you. Not like I'll do absolutely anything I can to make sure that you're okay. And the then introduction basically of like

trial by combat. Bells clearly spends time in Westeros because he is ready to say the judgment of the gods. Let's leave it to the judgment of the gods. And the Farazan aspect of this was fascinating because he seems, and we hear this like voiced in the jail cell scene later, like,

He wants to win. He wants Elendil to say the thing out loud, but he doesn't want to. He knows that Elendil has loyal followers and he doesn't want to incite their wrath. Yeah, he doesn't want to piss off the faithful. Yeah, like he's being mindful of that in a way that was, I thought, fascinating. So, okay, should we, anything else in the throne room or should we go to the jail cell? Let's go to the jail cell.

You think my life is some precious thing to me? One of my favorite Ned Stark speeches of all time. Like, how can we not be thinking about Ned in the black cells with Varys in this moment when Arian and then Muriel come to visit him?

Yes, absolutely. She is no match for Arianne. Mariel is great. We'll get to there. But Arianne, just no match for Varys. No one is. Come on. I mean, who is? Yeah. No match for what he is able to achieve. But I think... So you think my life is some precious thing to me. That Ned Stark speech is one of my favorite of all time. But I think the rest of it is like...

falls in line with who Elendil is because, you know, I'm sure the writers aren't like thrilled for us being like, hey, this is Game of Thrones. But what's true about this archetype of Elendil that has always been true is this is a career soldier, right? This is like, this is who he is, right? So you think my life is some precious thing to me is what Ned Stark says.

in season one of Game of Thrones, that I would trade my honor for a few more years of what? You grew up with actors, he says to Varys. You learned their craft, you learned it well, but I grew up with soldiers. I learned how to die a long time ago. And that feels very right to Elendil's character. I grew up with soldiers.

I grew up with soldiers. I learned how to die a long time ago. And it is hardly mercy to ask a man to set his integrity aflame. Like, what do we talk about all the time with that? The madness of mercy, but also honor, the role that honor played in his life. The fact that ultimately the great sacrifice to his reputation and honor in order to protect somebody he loved, how these are the defining centers of his existence and his character. And so Elendil, when Mariel enters to make her pitch summoned in by Arianne,

And like Arianne has been on my shit list all season, but this is a good move, right? She got Myrna to come down, right? This was interesting. And she says, so this was the pride conversation, right? Please, father, please swallow your pride. If after all this, and he says, if after all this, all you see is pride, then there are no words left for us to speak. I was thinking about Thrones here.

I was thinking about Jon and Mance Rayder here. This was so heavily the, isn't their survival more important than your pride? Pride, fuck my pride. This isn't about that. Mance, Jon, that just fantastic scene. You're a good lad, truly you are, but if you can't understand why I won't enlist my people in a foreigner's war, there's no point explaining. I think you're making a terrible mistake. The freedom to make my own mistakes was all I ever wanted. So it's interesting to think of Elendil as

A Ned and a Mance? With a little sprinkling of Mance in there, right? Because obviously Mance leaving the confinement of the realm to go be king beyond the wall and leaving the Night's Watch and everything like that. It's just vitz vitz. They were on my mind a lot in this stretch. So Arian summons in Mariel. Really quickly before Mariel gets there, I just want to say that what Arian says about

how she had to abase herself to get this to happen. She says, I bathed with my tongue to the dust for the chance to go to her. And we talk a lot about like the ways in which JD and Patrick and the writers lift actual lines from Tolkien, but they are also trying to do their best to match his lyricism. And so we talked about-

the wolves licking at the cradle last week. Nice eyebrow waggle from you there. I begged with my tongue to the dust this week or what

uh, Annatar, who was also Sauron says to Celebrimbor boots, kissing the threshold, you know, these like very like tongue to the dust boots, kissing the threshold wolves, licking at the cradle. Like these are these little flourishes that they, they pepper in throughout. Uh, I just really appreciate it. What if we just peppered in a little tongues to something else as well? Again, why? Soggy bottoms. Who says no? Yeah.

Yo, this was a moving scene. Do you want to hear it? This Muriel Allendale sequence? Let's, yeah. If Numenor is to endure, it needs men like you. Men who will champion all that is precious, men of faith. Faith is not faith if it is not lived. And in my heart, I know you are this kingdom's true heir. I cannot deny that knowledge. Were I to do so, I would cease to be the man you wish to save. What if you're wrong?

And I would rather die with a heart that is whole than live with one broken by cowardice. My heart. And then they do not kiss. I have to believe. Do you think it's because the Arian is just standing there watching? Oh, like a creep? No. I think it's because Elendil looks like he absolutely reeks. Like he looks very jail grotty to me. So...

If I'm Muriel and if Brian... Oh, man. Anyway, whatever. Yeah, I think it's a forehead lean. But if this is another couple on your list that you wish had had a conjugal visit this episode, I would not deny that of you. Top of the list. Top of the list for me. I really ship it. I think this idea, and this is something I don't know that I fully got into last week, but I think this idea that when he tells Muriel what he saw in the Palantir, and it's not the wave...

I think the idea is that she then thinks of him as the future for Numenoreans. If Numenoreans have a future, it's with the guy who didn't see that the end of all things was a wave, that he saw him on horseback riding elsewhere. So when she talks here about why his survival is fundamental, we need you because you are the future for

of our people. I've seen the wave, so I don't know that I'm the future, but you're the future. Do you know what I mean? I think that's what's going on here. Partially. Also, you're very hot. I don't want you to, it would be a shame for you to die. Please don't die. You're great to look at. Yeah, I think the, that's like, that, that's nice. I think the, then the sad, entwined part of that is that she thinks Farazan is,

right? She said like change to a new path. Farazan's kingship is a part of that path. And so are you. So those things right now, at least for her are inextricable from each other. And we're like, they don't have to be, but you can focus on Elendil and, uh, your belief in him and the belief that you recognize the people have in him. And the fact that that fucking Eagle definitely was there for you, you know, and you're about to get a magical creature. Yeah. Um,

TikTok, it's SeaWorld O'Clock, right? We're at a beautiful ocean vista. Stunning. Kevin is not invited to the party. And I don't know how that conversation went, but I would love to see it. He's got his sad little sling in the throne room scene and his dad is dressing him down. But like, you know...

Farazan, you only have three people on your small council. You don't want to bring them all to the seawater? I like the idea that after what happened at the shrine, like, Kemen cannot be trusted to not misbehave around a body of water. Yeah. It's like, what problem are you going to create for me next? You have to stay home.

Muriel, who is also a fan of Pedro Pascal, was like, I'll be your champion. I will. This is just fantastic. I will do this. And she walks into the water and they part with Namari. Yeah.

Very, very, very beautiful. Very beautiful. She goes in the water. She sinks down in her white gown, giving very much Galadriel being pulled down on the bottom of the ocean. We talked about a different Ophelia painting when we talked about the big bath of House of the Dragon. Yeah.

Yeah. This one I was thinking there's a Paul Steck painting of Ophelia that really reminded me of this in terms of just like the way the dress is billowing and the hair is billowing and we're being pulled underwater. And the sea worm is like, nope, I'm not eating this. This is the queen of Numenor, rightful queen. And if they can't speak eagle, maybe they can speak sea worm.

She lives. This was great. She does. How do you feel about our guy Bells being like... Hilarious moment where Bells has to redirect mid-sentence into conceding defeat. Brutal look for our guy Bells. So good.

Also, we simply cannot finish the pod without remarking upon how legitimately hilarious it was when Farazan is like, what the fuck is happening here? And then Arianne is like, she's correct. It's in there. You got to allow it. And then Pelous again just carries this book everywhere. It's like, by the letter of the law, yes. It's just absolutely incredible. I feel, I think you're good at identifying people

Who will be like the best eye candy in a show. And I feel like I'm good at identifying the weird little dudes who will just provide endless entertainment for us. Your bees is your bell. You've yet to miss. Yeah. I'm a big fan. This was great. Under the water. Yeah. Miriam. I was, first of all, this was just really cool. This sequence. Amazing stuff. Like we don't, I don't know that how, like if we give this show enough praise for, um,

how incredible it looks constantly. This sounds like a dumb thing to say. It looked real. It did look real. Like, it looked real. It's so engrossing and so immersive. And of course, if something, if you can believe it with your eyes, then it helps to heighten what you are watching, which is, it's not just the magic of interaction with a creature like that. It is the ritual. It is the history. It's the beliefs of,

that drive the people of this place. We've talked a lot about the divide between the Kingsmen and the faithful. Well, we get to, we're treated to these fickle Numenoreans and how their allegiances can sway in real time. And on the one hand, we're like, these people like honestly kind of suck. And on the other hand, you're like, well, that helps you understand what carries heft and what carries weight. Yeah.

And in terms of just Miriel personally, and as we track her relationship to what she has seen, what she believes in, what she fears, her father saying, don't go to Middle Earth, and her doing it anyway, and losing her sight. Elendil not telling her that he saw the wave because he didn't, et cetera, right? What's her response to this going to be? That this sea worm let her live, deemed her worthy. The moment that they share, you know, I love a...

with a magical being. The look that passed between them, it reminded me actually very much of the way we zoomed in on Vermithor's eye when Daemon went to sing the lullaby to him at the end of season one. I was thinking about Vhagar for some reason. I was thinking about Aemond claiming Vhagar. This felt like a real claiming moment, you know? For sure, yeah. And then she's just sort of coughed up

Belos has to be like the Valar have deemed her. Ah, fuck. Is it? Is it?

What's so funny, and they really pulled it off. I think they really did it. I think the location that they scouted for this, I think the digital effects work underwater. The one cut to the water just churning was a little funny, but what else are you going to do? I thought it was really good. Looks like a hot tub. I'm ready to get right in, man. This is relaxing, beautiful. Maybe this is where we finally do our first podcast from a body of water. But not about Aquaman.

We'll see. We'll see. Elendil, happy to make the most out of this moment. Queen of the Sea is what he calls her, right? I hope you rewatch this episode and you rewatch that moment when he says Queen of the Sea and he gets everyone to say Queen of the Sea because there's this one background performer.

who just says it really reluctantly and bitchily. And I actually don't think that was asked for. I think she might've just been tired or whatever, but she's just like, I guess it's really funny. Um, I am well, I am well, just the deep, uh, queen of the scene matters a lot to the Numenorean culture because the, the sort of like patron goddess of Numenor, um,

I'm going to mispronounce this. I believe it's like, it's like ruin without the R. Uinen, I think is how you pronounce it. I looked up the pronunciation. That's as close as I can get. Uinen, I think the sea goddess who statue we saw down in the jails in season one of the Ring of Power. There was this like woman with this flowing hair and that's who this goddess is. I mean, there were some questions at the time of like,

How much are the Numenoreans keeping faith with this, their patron sea goddess, if her statue's down in the jails? Is that where you keep a goddess's statue that you pay a lot of reverence to? But...

This is how important this goddess is to Numenor. Quote, in the second age, the mariners of Numenor would cry to Buonon for help because she was the only one capable of calming Osei, who loved... Her husband is the god of the sea, who loved to create tumuls in the sea. And the Numenoreans lived under her protection while their respect for the Valar endured. Therefore, the Numenoreans held the Maia Buonon in reverence as equal to the Valar. So, yeah. So, like...

Calling her queen of the sea. And the hair of this particular goddess is so important. So I think seeing Muriel's hair unbound around her in the water is a big part of this too. So yeah, I loved it. And as far as I'm concerned, sea worm trumps giant eagle when it comes to magical creatures being a way of picking our leaders. But I don't know...

what's the conclusion of this? Like everyone's saying queen of the sea. They're not saying queen of Numenor. They're saying queen of the sea. So like, is Palantir still in charge? Seems to be, but he's very rattled by this and he goes to the Palantir and I would just recommend no one ever go to the Palantir. That would be my personal recommendation. I mean, he is shook by what he sees here. Yeah. This is great. Incredible closeups of his absolutely rattled face.

A little Mount Doom action. A little Halbrand at the forge action. Looks great. Yeah, and then he holds his hand as it burns and he basically snarls. It's incredible. Last but genuinely not least in my mind is the Stranger and Nori and the stores and what's happening over in Rune. We open, speaking of visions, we open with the Stranger having a vision of Poppy and Nori in peril.

In Storeville. And you can tell because the ladders are behind them. So they're definitely in Storetown, whatever we call that place. But he's like, he wakes up, he's like, Nori! And then Tom Bobadil goes snoring. Who's snoring? I died. I laughed. I laughed so hard. Very funny. I thought it was really good. Snoring? Snoring.

Then we get some... I'm concerned because Nori and Poppy, they're holding the knife to Nori's neck. Oh, yeah. Doesn't look great. It's worrying. Doesn't look great for them. Especially when Poppy later is like, we'll fight. And I'm like, oh my God, they're farmers. What are they going to do? Okay. Does this count as Kieran Hines being in this episode because we see two quick flashes of him? Yes. Um...

Here's what Tom Baum says, right? He says, the secret fire whispers to us if we have ears to hear. It tells us things, even shows us things.

Yes. Obviously, we're going to talk about secret fire as it relates to Gandalf, but I do feel obliged to take us to Bible Corner briefly and just say that secret fires that talk to you has to make us think about Moses in the burning bush. And if we're thinking about Moses in the burning bush, which we talked about Moses a bit when we talked about Tom Amiddle's introduction, because when Moses goes to the burning bush, that's when he gets the, I am who I am from the voice of God. And that...

we mentioned was sort of like close to what Goldberry and Tom Bobadil say about who Tom Bobadil is. So that's very much top of mind, but also Moses specifically as a biblical figure, if we're thinking about Nori as this potential figure to like lead her people out of the desert into the quote land flowing with milk and honey, is that, is that on their minds when they're invoking God?

secret fires that talk and all that sort of stuff. Who's to say? Can you place this? I'm having trouble placing this next thing that the stranger says. He says, does it show us things which will be or things that only might be? Do you know where that's from? I couldn't figure it out. It's not the only fellowship language that

Makes its way in here, Jo. Right. We've got a doozy coming. So yeah, he hits the... Oh yeah, the other one is a lot. Okay. So he hits, you know, a little hint to Ogalladriel here, right? Indeed. Yeah. He talks about mastering the fire, which as we know is anathema to Tom Bombadil's life view, which is that we should not be being masters of nature, right? What does a secret fire need with you as his master is what he asks, right? Yes.

And of course, when we meet Gandalf against not the Balrog Ito, but the full-size Balrog, he says he's the servant, not of the secret fire, not the master of the secret fire, servant of the secret fire. Big difference. Big difference here. But I like the stranger's question of, okay, but if I'm not its master, how do I use it? If I can't control it, how do I use it? I think that's a fair question. We're watching the stranger sort of flail with his magic and

And so it's natural to us to say he needs to master that. He needs to control that. And Tom's like, mastering and controlling is not the way. And I think the answer is, you know, like dialogue with coaxing, soothing the things that we saw him do with the tree. But I think that's like a question worth asking. Because if I had magical powers and I was wildly out of control with them, I'd be like, I need to master this. I need to control this.

And that's not on the menu. Because what are we talking about when we talk about trials here, Mallory Rubin? Well, so on the secret fire for just a second. So, you know, we heard, obviously the Gandalf Fellowship line is the first thing that pops into our heads. But like Adar mentioned it in season one, right? We are creations of the one master of the secret fire, the same as you. And so again, like who...

is seeking to control or wield and who is saying I can wield because I understand that I am not in control. And where is that subtle distinction and recontextualization? I just, I do just want to say, as we continue to track the, is the stranger Gandalf clues. This is another one to me that goes into the, he better be, if he's not, it's too much. And if he is, it's great because then we are watching Gandalf.

One of our favorite things, a character on an arc, a character who is consumed by panic and fear that he is not able not only to maybe achieve something through his power, but that he is actually a threat to the people that he would see, right? To save or help. And then to get to the point where, I mean, we're going to talk about trials in a second, but like what...

Gandalf's stand against the Balrog and Kazidum is like, this is the, it's the greatest, it's Gandalf the Grey's path to becoming Gandalf the White. It is the trial. It's the thing we talk about when we're covering Ahsoka on every other story, right? So like, for that to be the moment, yeah, yes, like you shall not pass. For that to be the moment where we get to hear, like that to be the context around Servant of the Secret Fire and that in the might and height of his power, right?

he is able to say, I understand my place in this. I love it. Then seeing him, if it is him, which it has to be at this point in the journey and in a completely different relationship to the pursuit of power, very satisfying. Okay. So, um, we, uh, we trials, let's talk about trials. Do you want to put it on a new outfit before we talk about trials? What would you like to, what would you like to wear? Um, uh,

Do you want to wear a hat? What color are your boots? Oh, yellow, obviously. Oh, man. Much like we both were like, Ned,

with everything happening with Lendil. We've got some Yoda stuff to discuss in this next stretch here, John. And we talked about Yoda and Ben-Doo when we talked about Tom Bombadil in the first place, but this is so Luke on Dagobah coded. Luke deciding to go off and save Han and Leia when Yoda's like, um, you're training? The

You're making a huge mistake. I don't... So, again, this could not be more Yoda, Tom Bombadil as Yoda, this...

awful dry looking canyon full of sticks as Dagobah. Like the comps couldn't be clearer to me. Yes. With a touch of the Ilum Kyber crystal in there at the gathering, right? Oh, I like that. Go find the one that calls to you. You'll find your true staff only when the vision of your heart is singled to the service of the secret fire. But I don't know if Tom Bombadil...

believes what he's saying here. I don't know, because we believe in watching Luke go to save Han and Leia. Not really, but try to. That Luke's doing the right thing for friendship. For sure. Right? And Yoda's like, I did not want, I straight up did not want him to do that. Right? Tom here is like,

Is there someone else you think you're supposed to be? Well, you got all this stuff. You got the destiny. You're going to choose friendship over that? What are you going to do? And there's just like something about Tom Bombadil that makes me believe that he thinks choosing friendship is the right move here. Whereas Yoda doesn't. I really hope...

I hope that's the case. That's counter to everything he says, obviously. But I don't know if that in itself is the trial. The trial is picking friendship over grandiose destiny. Only you can save Middle-earth from the Saurons and the Dark Wizards and you, your power, the Celebrimbor pitch. You are the master of your art and all this sort of stuff. You're going to get this

this gand, this stick, and you're going to be so powerful. Why would you bother with these two little hard foots? You know, and then that's the moral test that's worth, you know, and he's failed all his other trials, but like maybe this is the one you have to pass this one and you have to recognize the value of fellowship. Yeah. That's I I'm compelled by that. I hope that's the case.

I guess my question is like, that's already the stranger's inclination is to go pursue that. So... I mean, maybe it's to make the test harder is the temptation part of it. Again, this all feels a little too hands-on for Tom Bombadil, to be honest with you. It definitely does. But...

Yeah. Yeah. But I think like on the, yeah. In terms of, is it not exactly what's happening with, with Yoda? And, uh, I wonder if it means old Ben. Um, because like, I mean, down to the particulars, right. They were in pain. That's what Luke says of the, it's the future. You see like everything that the stranger and Tom are talking about here. Visions. Can you trust in what you see? Is it the future? Is the future set? Uh,

my friends, they need me, they're in pain. There's a larger, bigger picture. Every single beat of it maps on. So the idea of then like subverting our expectations by maybe having Tom say, oh, the thing you're actually supposed to do is go save them. Very interesting. I think the stranger will go save them no matter what, hopefully. And I feel like- That would be an interesting moment for us to consider Tom Bombadil-

If that's not the case, and if he actually does not want him to go help Nori and Poppy, that would be fascinating. I know. Friend of hobbit everywhere? I would be shocked. But this line, you'll find your true staff only when the vision of your heart is singled to the service of the secret fire.

Yeah. Like, on the one hand, that could mean sort of more of what you're talking about in the future, getting off the weight. But, like, I think... I feel like he's going to go and save Nori and Poppy, I hope, and get his staff by the end of the season because he's...

like vision of his heart is single to the service of the secret fire, right? He's going to be able to control some aspect of magic. He's going to get his staff. I don't think Nori and Poppy are going to die this season would be my fondest hope. And so whether or not, I mean, my bigger picture, I'm sort of going out of order here, but my bigger picture theory is that

is going to get absolutely decimated. Like, let's pause and listen to the Gundaville, the Gund talking about how important this home is to them. This smeel, my mum and her folks dug for me. I was born in it. I've been tending that tree since I was big enough to balance a rake. I married my Bramgar in its shadow. And last spring, when he passed, I buried him under it. And one day I'll be buried beside him.

Every one of these smeels has a story like that. You see, this place, it's not just where we live. It's our home. Love that. Going to talk about the word smeel in a second. But before we do, like...

I mean, don't you feel like that tree has to be like pulled down or caught on fire before the season's over, given how like much they emphasize how precious it is. And I feel like those holes are going to be collapsed and these stores are going to be homeless and we're going to take them to the land of milk and honey, right? Yes, definitely. And I think especially because like,

When the Gund and Nori had their conversation about Sadek in front of the mural and this idea of the Shire entered the story and the way that the question was posed at the time of like, your kind's home, where you come from, does it look like this? Have you come back here to lead us all to the Suzat?

And there was this longing, right? But also this larger sense of, oh, is this the thing that we've been waiting for? And so you could leave a moment like that and think that this place means nothing to them, that they've just been waiting for someone to take them away. Right. But that's not the case. And so this was very, very important to root us in the idea that...

not just broadly and conceptually, very specifically, this is, yeah, there's no grass here anymore. And we know we've had in our Stranger Tom bomb sequences moments where we have to confront what has happened to this place. And we know that the Dark Wizard is there just around the bend, but

this is where they made memories with the people that they love. And so it is their home. And how could any other place become that unless they then built it with other people who they love too. So like we, this was, I thought a beautiful exchange. I have missed, we have not,

I just need this. I think, do I need every, now I'm like, I love TV, so I don't know why I'm like, can we just make each of these episodes a movie? But I do miss our wonderful little Harfoot pals. I know. And like, you get the classic Harfoot brew in this episode of real depth of feeling and then just levity and laughter and humor. With Poppy and her new bow. We follow Nori's eyes right to Poppy and nobody. Yeah.

And I mean, at least fucking someone in this episode got some, Jo. Someone. Shut up, Poppy. A real player. Always. Yeah. The use of smeal is important. This is a Tolkienian word. Fun to remember. The first line that Tolkien ever wrote about this world is, officially wrote about this world is, in a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole filled with the ends of worms and oozy smell, nor yet a dry, fair, funky

nor he had a dry bear sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat it was a hobbit hole and that means comfort yeah that's an important concept this meal is basically a

fancier hobbit hole it's it's like the mansion of hobbits the well-to-do hobbits bag end is a smeel and it's it they have tunnels with rounded walls and branching into other rooms some of like the the most elaborate smeels are can can fit up to like 100 hobbits something like that could live in them they're just sort of like a whole rabbit warren of of hobbit holary um

Smeal is an invention of Tolkien, a linguistic invention based on the Old English word smigel, which means to burrow.

And if you're like, Smeel sounds like Smeagol, that's important. That's true. It's connected. This idea of the burrowing of your home into the ground and Smeagol, the quintessential halfling who is corrupted into Gollum is all the same concept. So I love that they said Smeel here. I thought that was great. Yeah, me too. Nori's power. I just want to... Mm-hmm. Nori is...

I love Nori and I love spending time with Nori. I can understand why people feel like this story feels so separate from, you know, the forces gathering. People sometimes I think feel that way about Numenor as well, but like, uh, the, you know, the action gathering on Eregion and then way off in Rune, this is happening. Oh, we're going to go over to Meereen. Okay. Like that's what's happening over there. Right. And so, um,

But I love Nori and I love this performance. And I love this idea that Poppy says when she says, when you say something enough, I start believing you. This idea of Nori as a leader. We've not really seen, she's a leader of her pack of two, but we've not really seen her be a leader of a community. So this idea of Nori stepping into that role is one I am excited by the prospect of. Me too. And especially because it feels like

and this was part of the beauty of her family, embracing her desire to go do something new at the end of season one. But,

For the bulk of season one, that felt like actually conflict. The thing that made Nori individually, specifically herself, how could you be the leader then of your community when the thing that you want is in conflict with the way that they live their lives? And so for that to... For her to move forward to a place and with a group of people where that doesn't have to be the case and actually her...

instinct and desire to like help and believe and, and seek what else might be out there and heed the call to adventure could lead to belonging and peace and comfort and home. What a beautiful story that would be. And that brings us to the belonging, peace and comfort that I find in wig watch and ear wash with Joanna and Mallory. Anything, well, before we do that, anything else you want to say about this episode?

What did you think of many that died deserve life? Some that live deserve death. Who are you to give it to them? I didn't like it personally. Me neither. Okay. Yeah. It was a little too much. I was actually kind of bummed by that. Yeah. It was a little too much. Now, again, this is just like, you know, it's got to be Gandalf. We're keeping Tali. Has to be. But the specific, that is such a famous. It's such an iconic. Iconic. We're talking pantheon line. Yeah.

It made me think of the observation you've made a couple times this season about how some people are bumping on maybe some of the parallels in language and that this would, I think, be one of them. The flip side of it is, if it is Gandalf, then much like the other thing we just talked about, yeah, it's interesting to think like...

Here, he receives this in a moment of uncertainty and impatience, and then he can offer it to Frodo when he is in that position of doubt and perhaps recklessness and offer it as wisdom. That would be interesting. But yeah, when he said it, I was like, I think... Which is not a reaction, actually, I've had really at all to the repeating or similar language, which I tend to love. Yeah, but I think there's just a few...

There's a few just like such famous lines. Yeah. If this one's untouchable. I feel like you could paraphrase it. Give me the sentiment of it, but not give me the word for word iteration of it is sort of how I feel about it. You know? Yeah. Okay. Wig watch and ear watch. Hit me. Yeah. Do you wear wigs? Hello. Welcome to wig watch.

We have a lot of emails actually in this section this week and I just wanted to read them out. I mean, we've already made our feelings clear about the Annatar wig. Okay. This is what Eleni wrote in about Elrond's hair. Um,

So Eleni asked why Elrond as a character would go from gorge curls to Hugo Weaving's wig style. Initially, it seemed the only answer was that when Isildur bounced at Mount Doom, Elrond decided that his angst had to be expressed the only way millennials know how. And I do count him as a millennial because of when the movie came out.

He decided a box bottle black rinse and flat ironing was the only way to show the pain he felt inside. I thought he might be more involved, but as you say, who among us? However, obviously, Hugo already had his emo hair ready for Mount Doom. What event do you think tipped Elrond over the edge pre-Mount Doom? I am just going to say that while it might drive legions of fans to the brink of madness if there is a visual element

discrepancy in that famous moment when we get a version of it with these characters, I would prefer that Elrond continue with this hair. I'm fine if the curls are long. Like, if he is, like, shoulder-length, like, the curls of some kind. I don't know what that's going to look like when it grows out. But no, if we go for the, uh... What? The black...

box bottle black rinse and flat iron look of Hugo Weaving. I don't want that for our guy Rob Aramayo. So I'm sure they wouldn't do that to him. Okay. Aaron wants to yes and my notes on Ellen Deal's hair from the previous episode. Though I thought it was looking much better this episode. The like must prison hair wig I thought was really wigging very well. But Aaron writes...

About Ellen Deel's no strand of gray in his hair despite his beautiful mature face. And I was looking at interviews with the actor himself and he has beautiful, like distinguished traces of silver in his hair. Trust me, I'm following him on Instagram. I'm sure you are.

But this is what Aaron says. A calamity in monochrome. Personal thoughts on Ellen Deal's hair. I have agreed with you on countless takes in many fictional universes, but never have I been compelled to write before. I've been screaming about the injustice of Ellen Deal's recklessly brunette hair since that beautiful man graced screens. As a human who began to go gray at 21, I had just forever just dyed my hair fun red colors out of a box because they'd become part of my personality. Sometime last year at 41, I was shocked and dismayed to realize the

capacious disconnect between my firmly monochromatic hair and my naturally aging face. Calamity. It was an act of self-love to embrace some gray and some lightning. A little hotter? Yes. Justice for Ellen Diehl's hair. Justice for Numenor. Fantastic email. Thanks for that email, Erin. I think you weighed in last week, but just sort of like...

Let's just check again. I'm pro. A little silvering in the hair, right? Absolutely. Yeah. I think it would look wonderful. It would look great.

Can't wait to see that and see Muriel run her hands through it. And dare to dream. They should actually smooch and not just rest their foreheads next to each other. Okay. Last but not least, Chase is just also weighing in on the Ellen Deal hair. And he says, he remains quite hot, but the wig is not actually giving this season. Like, it's bad. Love y'all and your coverage. Thank you for focusing on what's important. Fellowship and music and wigs. Our brand. Thank you, Chase. Official logline of the pod. Thank you, Chase.

Great stuff. What a wig watch. Oh my God. That's wig watch. Well, wig watch mailbag. Thank you so much. A mailbaggins, Shire mailbaggins from you guys. Okay. Last but not least, a ring to a conspiracy unmasked our weekly. Who's that guy? Best guesses and thoughts. I don't know. Do we have any updates on ringwraith watch or anything like that?

Oh, you mentioned your Gandalf feelings already. I think we've sort of done the, who's that guy? Okay. Yeah. Then we just have some like random mailbag stuff, honestly, here at the end. I don't know how like really spoilery it is. This is just talking about allegory again, something we'll probably talk about every single week on this podcast. The ongoing conversation. Sai writes in to say, from one of Tolkien's unpublished letters to a woman named Aileen Elgar, quote, I am glad that you discovered Narnia.

These stories are deservedly very popular, but since you asked if I like them, I'm afraid the answer is no. I do not like allegory and least of all religious allegory of this kind, but that is a difference of taste which we, Tolkien and Lewis, both recognized and did not interfere with our friendship.

End quote. So that is J.R.R. Tolkien talking about his best friend C.S. Lewis's life work, The Chronicles of Narnia. And he's like, no, thank you. Not for me. No, thank you. This is great stuff. Fantastic. Do we want to talk about the Palantir really quickly? The Palantiri. Yeah, sure. Another C.S. Lewis quote. It's just, it's C.S. Lewis's time to shine in this podcast, right? So Lana writes in,

And she says on prophecy and Palantiri, I have loved the conversation about prophecy and fantasy stories on all of your pods and the way that it can become self-fulfilling. As C.S. Lewis said in the great divorce story regarding predestination, quote, we cannot understand the relationship between choice and time until we are beyond both.

End quote. Choice is all we can grasp until we reach, quote, the far side, I think. Prophecies. And then she has this great section about the way in which prophecy is used in the Torah, but I do want to skip ahead to this part where she says, I wonder if the Palantiri are, quote, bad necessarily, or just like you said, quote, not good in the wrong hands. Fair enough?

I wonder if the wave vision coming to Muriel could be a warning that inspires a choice for life and goodness like the choice Ellen Deal makes. And right now I'm wondering if she has been shrinking in fear or choosing to step into the arena with her head held high like Harry. So any initial reactions? Ten favorite passages ever. I'm sure that Lana is a binge head. Anything you want to say in response to Lana's email? Yeah, it made me think of...

That passage from Half-Blood Prince that I fucking love. But no, it made me think of the, what's the opening line? What are the first words we hear in the show? What did they choose to go with as the tone setting note? Nothing is evil in the beginning.

Right. That's and that's Galadriel in the show, but that's an Elrond line from the book for nothing is evil in the beginning as he's talking to Boromir in fellowship. And so obviously that's a key that's a key idea that is very central to what Tolkien is exploring here. But there's a reason that it's where we begin the journey with these people who are going to be confronting these things. And so, yeah, I think it tracks like very, very nicely with a lot of what we like to discuss and assess here.

It's Bendu again, too, right? Like, an object cannot make you good or evil, right? So... Nothing is good or bad. You know... The game makes it so. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, you know, in Two Towers, there's the great Aragorn Gandalf conversation about...

the Palantir and the stone. And especially because of who they are respectively and how now certainly like we as modern viewers of the films, like think of them. It's a, it's a fascinating one to revisit because Aragorn is really ready and confident. And Gandalf is the one who's like, Ooh, are we sure? You know, dangerous indeed, but not to all said Aragorn. There's one who may claim it by right for this assuredly,

is the Palantir of Orthanc from the treasury of Elendil sent here.

by the kings of Gondor. Now my hour draws near. I will take it. Gandalf looked at Aragorn and then, to the surprise of the others, he lifted the covered stone and bowed as he presented it. Receive it, Lord, he said, in earnest of other things that shall be given back. But if I may counsel you in the use of your own, do not use it yet. Be wary. When have I been hasty or unwary who have waited and prepared for so many long years at Aragorn? Never yet.

Do not then stumble at the end of the road. So that feels like a great summation of everything that's at the heart of this email. Is it?

definitely a mistake to look? Is the thing itself evil? No. But what are you bringing? What are you seeking? Who is on the other end? So that's an important sort of Palantir lore thing. There's like two ways to use the Palantir. You can just look into it or you can use it as like a connection, an ill-advised connection

DM conversation as Sauron and Saruman had or Pippin stumbled into. But like this idea that the Palantiri were used, they were a gift for

from the elves to the men of Numenor and this idea of connection we talked about. You know, the island of Arisea that's just like off the shore. This idea of like, we want to stay connected to you, Numenoreans. We love you. We think you're the best men. We gave you a star-shaped island because we think you're the best. And here are some stones and we are going to have such amazing group chats through the Palantiri, right? Um...

But then, you know, the Numenoreans grew resentful of the elves and it becomes a bit, you know, more complicated and corrupted. I think with, with Farazan specifically, who we see use it in a way that is made to make us quite uneasy, obviously. I think a good comp is someone like Denethor because there's this part in Unfinished Tales where they talk about Denethor and his relationship with Palantir and

Denethor, who, like Farazan, comes to power in an insecure fashion, right? And this is what it says in the Unfinished Shales quote. It seems fairly plain that he...

uh, Denethor had at one turn to the stone as soon as he came to power, having long studied the matter of Palantiri for the uses of the Palantiri and the distinction between their solitary use for seeing and their use for communication with another responded stone. But this idea that Denethor is like day one, get me the L stone and I need it in order to be this leader. And so this idea in this episode that Farazan's,

um, position as giant Eagle designated leader of Numenor feels threatened by what Muriel does. He turns to the volunteer and that's a, to your point about like, what do you bring? Not what you want to bring to the table at all.

And he's doing it, I mean, and Meryl was doing it in secret too, but in a different way. Like, he has to keep the secret because his whole claim hinges on embarrassing it and outing her for having used it. Yeah. So then he has this like, and it's not a fun kind of keep it secret, keep it safe. It's like, I sort

to kill it anyone know I'm doing this and yeah then what kind of corruption or rot will will set in I guess you know so to your do we have anything else to say about like who might potentially be a ringwraith and ringwraith watch I did I do I on the Kemen tracker front like

Still my leading candidate, but the fact that his father is constantly belittling him feels like, okay, now is Kemin going to do the classic? Let me prove to him that I am worthy. Let me get this ring.

and show him what I can do for our family and our ability to rule, and then what might happen as a result. And it's going to go really well. Great. Yeah. I continue to think the last few episodes, they're doing just a sensational job of setting up Sauron on Numenor and Farazan and Sauron. I'm so excited for this next season. Oh, yeah. I forgot. We're in the spoiler section. Yes. Sauron coming... I guess we are. We're safe. We're ready to bring two. Sauron coming to Numenor and just...

Fucking shit up. So like this idea that like Farazan is going to come up with some scheme of like, we have to go to middle earth to help with this threat or whatever, you know, like he had things to say about the potentiality of Numenor and, and middle earth and I'm sorry. And the mainland and like what all of that could do for them in season one. But yeah, I, I like,

He's going to have a whole new name and a whole new wig on Numenor in season three, I presume. And I'm very excited for it. So let's fucking go. Last but not least on the Palantiri front, I want to say also from Unfinished Tales, there's a section sort of about the nature of the vision of

Because as we parse these visions, what does the wave mean? What does Elendil, we know what the wave means. We know what Elendil riding away from the city means. What does it mean for Farazan to see a bird's eye view of Mount Doom and Halbrand, like all of that? What is that going to mean to him or whatever? Right.

From Unfinished Tales, quote, alone the Palantiri could only, quote, see. They did not transmit sound. Ungovered by a directing mind, they were wayward, and their visions were apparently at least haphazard.

And then these are, these are specifically the Palantiri that Elendil brings to the mainland when he leaves. Right. So like from a high place, their westward face, for instance, would look to vast distance. It's vision blurred and distorted to either side and above and below. And it's foreground obscured by things receding and ever diminished clarity. So this idea that you need to go up to a high place to use a Palantir so that it can actually like see where you need to see is like a really interesting aspect of it. It's like, it's like, uh,

you know, a spyglass that you would want, a big telescope that you want to put at the top of a tower of some kind. So, yeah, I'm excited for more Palantir watch. And I thought the effect in this episode of sort of the like ice breaking vision that he has there, I thought that was really cool.

Yeah, very cool. Last but not least, and back to Mallory's favorite subject. Mindy says, Joanna, you wondered if we'd get to see Sauron try these tactics on someone and have it not work. I'm hoping we see Sauron try to get Elendil with this stuff. That's where I think we could see what it looks like for Sauron to utterly fail to ensnare someone. Are you looking forward to that? Sign me up. What if he threatens Miriel? Miriel feels like she could be a weakness for Elendil, right? Like, we know he's fine, but like...

What's going to happen to me to yell? We don't know. Okay. Hopefully just a string of astonishing orgasms. I love you truly, madly, deeply. Okay. That's done it for us. We have forever ruined the opening of the Hobbit for all time. And I apologize for that. Thanks for joining us today. Season two, episode six, the rings of power. Only two more episodes left. We are bereft. We are devastated. We'll be back.

In short order. Tomorrow. With our Agatha takes. We're very excited for that. Which stuff go, baby? Thanks to Steve and Jomie and Arjuna for all the usual things they do. And thanks to the video team. Stefano Sanchez, John Richter, T Cruz, Takes a Village to put this up on YouTube. We appreciate all of you for your hard work. These are long episodes. You guys are the best. Um...

What's up, bad babies? I haven't said that in a while, so I thought I would say that. Goodbye, bad babies. We'll see you tomorrow. And Mallory, I am well. I am well. I'm just fatigued. Just fatigued. Bye. Bye.