Oberlin Accused the Gibsons of Racism. Now It Owes Them $36 Million.
44:58 Share

I'm Barry Weiss, and this is Honestly. For a little over a year now, we've been coming to you every week with frank conversations about the things that matter the most with the people you most want to hear from. A year ago, I had never done a podcast. I mean, certainly I hadn't hosted one. I'd barely been a guest on one. And now I'm pretty sure I host the only podcast in the country that's had on both Bill Barr and Kim Kardashian.

So why am I here at the top of the show getting a little bit reflective with you? Well, there's major life-changing news about to happen in my family. My wife is having a baby any day now, really any second. Now, don't worry, I'm not going anywhere, but I am going to share the mic over the coming weeks with some amazing guest hosts. These are journalists and friends that I deeply admire, and I know you will too. We're kicking it off today with a special episode.

It's an investigation about what happened when a small family business stood up to a powerful liberal arts college in Oberlin, Ohio. It's a story that illustrates the growing divide over how we define justice, who gets to define justice, and what group really holds cultural power. It's also a parable about the precarious idea of truth at a time when political narratives shape so much of our realities.

This one's from reporter and my sister, Susie Weiss. Stay with us. Hey guys, Josh Hammer here, the host of America on Trial with Josh Hammer, a podcast for the First Podcast Network. Look, there are a lot of shows out there that are explaining the political news cycle, what's happening on the Hill, the this, the that.

There are no other shows that are cutting straight to the point when it comes to the unprecedented lawfare debilitating and affecting the 2024 presidential election. We do all of that every single day right here on America on Trial with Josh Hammer. Subscribe and download your episodes wherever you get your podcasts. It's America on Trial with Josh Hammer.

Every morning, just as the sun starts to rise over the town of Oberlin, Lorna Gibson drives a mile down the road to West College Street and opens up shop. On the main floor, we do have the baked goods. We also have candy that up on third floor, our candy is all individually hand-dipped. We make our own caramels and creams.

Gibson's Bakery has been open since 1885. And when Lorna married into the Gibson family about 40 years ago, she and her husband David became the fourth generation of Gibsons to run the bakery. Actually, my son right now is doing all the dipping on the chocolates.

Their 38-year-old son, Alan Gibson, is the fifth. - We make all our fresh baked donuts and things to come down. We also have a small, like a grocery type store that we carry a lot of supplies for. We also carry beer and wine.

So it's pretty much a full service. Thanks so much. Thanks for coming in. Thanks have been coming to Gibson's since horses ruled the streets of Oberlin. Donut after donut, Gibson after Gibson. The 137-year-old bakery, most famous for their whole wheat donuts, is open every day of the year except Christmas. And it's a staple in Oberlin, Ohio.

The town shares a name with its other most famous institution, Oberlin College. Thank you very much. One can't imagine Oberlin without Gibson's. It's a landmark of Oberlin. It's always been here, as long as the college has been here. And it's just an important part of Oberlin. Over the years, Lorna remembers all the famous customers who would stop by. We had Stevie Wonder.

was in the store and David and Dad took care of him and they laughed and shook hands. A lot of the stars would come in for a lot of the graduations and things. We had Michelle Obama the one year. And so they would all come in and patronize the store.

But more than just being a staple in the Oberlin community, Gibsons very much relied on the college for their business. We had daily contracts with them, and we did yearly pie and ice cream socials for their graduation weekend, and we did a lot of catering, and we did the bagels every morning. We would supply all the pastries for all of their parties that they had.

We worked with the college on a daily basis, actually. All of that, their history, their business, their reputation, that completely changed the morning of November 10, 2016, when a group of protesters gathered outside of the bakery. No peace! No peace! They were college students. No peace! No peace! No peace!

There were some older, which I assumed were the professors. In the crowd, Lorna can see the dean of students and vice president of the college, Meredith Raimondo. And they just were chanting to boycott Gibsons. And they had signs that said, "Boycott Gibsons." We were racist. They had some signs that said, "White supremacy." The students were trying to stop customers from getting into the store.

and shouting at anyone who entered. My concern was at that point just to keep the workers safe in the store and just to cater to anyone that did come in. Very few people could get through the lines because they were blocking the doors. I was somewhat frightened. I was surprised. I had heard that the night before after the arrest that when David came home that he said that he was afraid that, you know, this was going to blow up, but

None of us had any concept that it would be that bad. But it was that bad. We are here today because yesterday, three students from the Africana community were assaulted and arrested as a result of a history of racial profiling and racial discrimination by Gibson's Bakery, located at 23 West College Street, Oberlin, Ohio, 44074.

There is a need for justice to be served to hold victims accountable for the injustices and patterns of unlawful behavior. If you agree with this statement, we'll read the comment, guys. So what was this all about? Why were students turning their ire on a decades-old bakery in the tiny town of Oberlin, Ohio? Well, here's what happened.

The evening before, around 5 o'clock, Lorna's son Alan and her husband David were working at the bakery when three Oberlin students came in. One of the students, 19-year-old Elijah Aladdin, tried to use a fake ID to buy a bottle of wine. Alan, who was working the cash register that evening, noticed that Elijah was also hiding two more bottles of wine in his jacket. So Alan confiscated the fake ID and

and called the cops. Elijah dropped the bottles, and the three students ran out of the store. Alan ran after them. He caught up to the students at Tappan Square across the street. It's a park that connects the town of Oberlin to the college. There, a brawl started. According to the police report, when the cops arrived on the scene, Alan was lying on the ground, and the three students were on top of him, kicking and punching him.

The cops broke up the fight and put the three students in handcuffs. In the body cam video, you can hear Elijah telling police that actually it was Alan who had been the aggressor.

And as soon as I figure out what's going on... Why isn't he being arrested? Because he held me. And there are witnesses that can confirm that he attacked me and choked me. That's what everybody's... In the street and chased me. That's what everybody's writing... So why am I only being arrested and he's not? Well, what I got here, everybody was on top of him beating on him. Because he was trying to kill me. Okay. Just relax. Okay.

— After witnesses gave their statements and the police made their reports, Allen went to the hospital to get his injuries checked out. And David went home to tell his wife what had happened.

What did David come home and tell you? He came home quite upset, said that there had been a shoplifting incident. Ellen had gotten pretty beaten up that night. And David said that he was worried that it was going to blow up because I guess in the seconds that it all happened at the store, there was already a crowd across the street supporting the three students that had created the problem.

In the body cam video from that night, you could hear David clearly concerned about what the college students were going to say. At one point, he asked the police if they need fingerprints to prove what happened. I don't know if you need, do you need fingerprints on those? No, we're not going to use them. Because you've got an awful lot of students that are claiming otherwise, that saw it completely differently, as I hear them, that he did nothing.

In the background, you can hear David say, they're going to be trashing us. We're going to be, they're going to be trashing us. Yeah. And by the next morning, David's fears had come true. The narrative was sealed. Alan Gibson, a white guy, had racially profiled and assaulted three innocent black students at his family's bakery. And we've got some breaking news from Lorain County. Lacey Crisp is live right now in Oberlin, where people are protesting for a different reason. Lacey?

Yeah, that's right. You can see behind me there are about 100 people here protesting. What they say is racial profiling. Now, this is the second day of protests here at Gibson's Bakery. In front of the bakery, protesters handed out flyers to customers that said Gibson's was a, quote, racist establishment with a long account of racial profiling and discrimination. Students wrote op-eds in the school paper warning other students not to go to Gibson's. A student Senate resolution called for the school to officially condemn Gibson's.

And soon, the school put out a statement. They said they would, quote, "commit every resource to determining the full and true narrative, including exploring whether this is a pattern and not an isolated incident." And on November 14th, just five days after the incident, Oberlin canceled their orders with the bakery. David was trying to have meetings with the administration at the college to get them to retract their statements.

And they were trying to push David into, well, just don't stop any shoplifters. You know, if anyone shoplifts, send them to me and send them to us. We'll take care of it. Well, David would not do that. While David tried desperately to get the college to retract their statement and reinstate their orders, the Gibsons were also hoping that the students would come around and plead guilty.

David had decided to press charges not because he wanted to ruin the students' lives or make an example out of them, but because he wanted to teach them to assume responsibility, as he always did when these kind of incidents popped up. Over the years, David always treated the shoplifters the same way. He always called the police, and all he ever asked of all of them was that they admit they did something wrong and

tried to make restitution, community service or whatever. He never wanted to destroy their lives. He was always there trying to help them and teach them.

David Gibson also hoped that if the students pled guilty, it would clear his family's name and put the whole matter behind them. He felt he needed to do this not just for himself or for Lorna, but most especially for his dad, Alan Sr., who was 88 years old at the time.

Allen Sr. was distraught that the bakery he'd given his life to was now being recast from a local treasure to a racist establishment. He was a real prominent figure in this town. His dad would sit outside of the store for hours and hours, and everybody that walked by would stop, shake his hand, or sit down and talk to him. Everybody knew him in town. And, uh...

After the protests and after all this started, it was really sad because even when I would be down here at the store, he'd be sitting up front and nobody would talk to him. Nobody would stop and sit with him. And it just broke his heart. It broke our hearts. It was very sad. Oberlin College has a reputation for being the ur-example of a progressive college campus. And some of that is well-earned.

It was the first school in the country to admit women alongside men and one of the first to admit Black students in 1835.

But in recent years, Oberlin has become shorthand for the sort of far-left overreach that's characterized by over-the-top sensitivity. Think safe spaces, trigger warnings, charges of cultural appropriation. That sentiment of we have very organized student body with a lot of strong opinions that is not afraid to speak up and take action is real.

Tyler Sloan graduated from Oberlin in 2017, where she was the editor of the student paper. And I don't think that that is necessarily a bad thing. During Tyler's time at Oberlin, the student paper published an op-ed on how the banh mi Vietnamese sandwiches in the dining hall were offensive. There was a story written by a student at

It said that the dining hall was serving banh mi, and it basically wasn't banh mi at all. It was sort of a butchered version of that. In addition to that, there was an incident where beef was served in an Indian dish that was being served on a traditional Hindi holiday. It's the kind of wacky campus activism that conservative outlets love to mock.

Oberlin is a really, really great institution to pay attention to if you're waiting for liberal kids to mess up. But the night that these three students came into Gibson's Bakery and shoplifted, it wasn't just any night.

It was November 9th, 2016. And we've got to take a quick break, but before we go, a big state for Donald Trump. Donald Trump has won the state of Ohio. Donald Trump wins the state of Ohio, one of his core four. You saw it right there, a big victory there for Donald Trump. There you see it, key state. No Republican has ever won the White House without winning Ohio. It is my high honor and distinct privilege...

to introduce to you the president-elect of the United States of America, Donald Trump. On November 9th, 2016, the political tinderbox at Oberlin was packed tighter than ever. Because just the day before, America had elected Donald Trump. Thank you. Thank you very much, everybody. Sorry to keep you waiting. Complicated business. Complicated.

Thank you very much. A lot of people who are on campus, I think, you know, especially given the rhetoric leading up to the 2016 election, a lot of students felt extremely threatened. I don't feel safe in this country. I'm scared for my friends. I'm scared. I'm scared for my undocumented friends.

I'm scared for people's parents are undocumented. I'm scared for my LGBTQ friends. I'm scared for my trans friends. So when the rumor got around campus that three black students had been arrested after an altercation with a local white shop owner, it was a perfect storm at a perfect place.

at the perfect time. We just need to be knowing what are we fighting for? And when people ask us, we need to explain that shoplifting, the stuff on the surface does not matter. This runs so much deeper and we need to take the time to figure that out. And not only the time, but the respect to listen to each other. Over the next nine months, the Gibsons started to feel a bit hopeless. It felt like the protests were never going to end.

But in August of 2017, finally, the Gibsons got what they thought was good news. Elijah Aladdin and the two other students who had been in the bakery that night pled guilty to shoplifting as part of a plea deal. Elijah also put out a statement that said that the Gibsons' actions that night had not been racially motivated.

It seemed like the relief they were waiting for. Lorna and David and their son Alan and Alan Sr. all thought that this would restore their reputation. But... The college just wouldn't stop. It appeared to be too late. By the time the students...

pled guilty. Again, he approached the college, tried to get them to please retract, say that we're not racist, let's get on with what we've been doing all these years and get back to business, and they absolutely refused. They would not stop. It just continued. - No peace! No peace! - They wouldn't reinstate the orders. We had big orders with Bon Appetit and all. They were forced to stop dealing with us.

Otherwise, they would lose their job. We had some of their workers that were coming in after the protest. They lost their jobs when they found out. I mean, they just wouldn't stop pushing the racism cart. They had no choice but to start laying off employees. Things were just falling apart. We had to let go of a lot of our workers at the store. We had over 20-some workers. We were having a hard time

even keeping the workers here for, you know, to make payroll and things, and it just was getting worse and worse. And so finally he said he just had to do something. You know, enough's enough. And David decided that this just wasn't right. So finally David decided to take it to trial. We'll be right back. Can you tell us, based upon your experience, your observations, and all the evidence from whatever source you have,

whether those claims of racism against the Gibsons are true or false and tell us why you say either way. Okay. Let me set the table. I'll back up a little bit. My mother worked for the college for over 40 years. She ended up being director of communications of the college. So some of my fondest memories include Oberlin College. I grew up around the college.

In November 2017, David Gibson filed a civil complaint against Oberlin College alleging libel, slander, and interference with business relationships. Over the course of the trial, several citizens of the town of Oberlin who knew the Gibsons were called to testify.

One of them was Eric Gaines, a black resident of Oberlin and a longtime friend of the Gibsons. It's out of the realm of rational thought. It really is. It's not even something that, well, maybe they are. It's beyond. It's beyond reality. Why do you say that? Because I've lived it. I've grown up with these, with the Gibsons and in Oberlin. And they've always been the fairest and kindest people.

You know, there were stories--I don't know if you all are familiar with redlining that occurred back in the '50s where African Americans couldn't buy property, real estate. Well, Dave's granddad--now, these are stories that I've heard from my parents, that he would actually go into some neighborhoods, purchase houses.

and then offer them for sale to those who had been redlined against. I mean, so this stretches back, you know, we're talking, what, 60, 70 years now? 60, 70 years? So, fast forward to 2018, it's ridiculous.

Eric's wife, Vicki, a nurse who works at the college, also testified. I go, for what?

And that's when he proceeded to tell me about the incident that happened and the racial slurs and they're racist. And first thing I said to him is, "Let's get in the car. I need to drive down there." So we got in the car. He took me to Gibson's. I proceeded to walk through this massive crowd of people. And I walked right into the store. And Lorna looked at me and she goes, "Why are you here?" I said, "Just to give you a hug."

I said, for nothing else, just to give you a hug and let's walk outside together. And why did you do that? Just because. She's my friend and they're good people. And it was just wrong what was going on. It was just, I couldn't wrap my head around what was going on. And how did the crowd react when they saw you, an African-American woman, with Lorna Gibson, a white woman? Well, you know, all the signs of Black Lives Matter happened.

Of course, you know, my response to them is, this is not about black lives. This is about a young adult committed a crime, didn't care what color you were, pink, blue, brown, white, red, purple, it doesn't matter. You committed a crime. When you commit a crime, there's a consequence for it. And this was your consequence. Didn't matter what color you were, you were wrong. It is preposterous what is being said.

said about this family. Preposterous. So, you know, I'm here to support my community friends. Oberlin is who we are, and we are Oberlin. Vice versa. Just us, the Gibsons, and other families in the community. So I would stand up against injustice whenever I would see it, you know, because I'm a firm believer that if you don't, you're part of the problem.

During the trial, the Gibsons' attorney brought out evidence that it wasn't just the students protesting the bakery, but it was the school actively supporting the students in their claim that the bakery was racist. The Gibsons' attorney said that then-Dean Meredith Raimondo and other administrators did things like hand out flyers, bring the protesters pizza, and promised to pay for gloves to keep the students' hands warm during the protests.

They also showed text messages between administrators where one dean said that she wanted to quote, "rain fire and brimstone" on that store. Another said that she wanted to quote, "unleash the students" on the bakery. The school argued that the administrators were only there to prevent things from escalating and that as a school, they can't be held liable for the actions of their students. — Mr. Gibson, almost three years now, this cloud's sort of been hanging over you guys. How does it feel to have it sort of dispelled at this point?

Well, I'm still a bit in shock. I'm not quite sure. On June 13th, 2019, after years of court battles, the Gibsons were handed down the verdict. So, word of relief. And the Gibsons won. All the Gibsons ever wanted was to have the truth come out. Yes. All they ever asked from the beginning, from Oberlin College, was to use its power and influence and might and tell the truth.

The jury had concluded that the college was guilty of libel and that the Gibsons were owed a total of $44 million in damages. I think they sent two messages. Number one is that

Truth still matters, and as I've said, that recklessly aimed words are as destructive as recklessly aimed bullets, and there's consequences for that. There has to be. The second message that I believe that the jury wanted to send was that they are hoping that this is a national tipping point and that it sends a message to administrators in higher education to remind them that what they're running is not a nursery school,

It's a college. And in that regard, it's their responsibility not to merely appease students. And when students rush to judgment or rush off in one direction, their responsibility isn't just to support them and applaud their efforts. Their responsibility is when there's a rush to judgment or a rush in any direction to be the adult in the room. So I was sitting next to my father-in-law when the...

when they read the verdict. And it was relief. To me, it wasn't, honestly, I didn't even think about the amounts or anything. It was just a relief that we just felt like it was over. We weren't going to be called racist anymore. Everything was just going to go back to normal again. That's pretty much the feeling I had, that now we could go on with our lives again.

But the story doesn't end there. It's not true that the college supported the demonstration. The college, which has a nearly $1 billion endowment, refused to pay. The college didn't pass out gloves and didn't hand out gloves. Well, the college didn't, but people representing the college did.

Carmen Twilley Amber, the now president of Oberlin College, told CBS News that the college disputes that administrators handed out gloves during the protests and says that they shouldn't be held liable for the actions of their students. Well, I think that one of the things that the college has always said is that the college doesn't condone shoplifting, doesn't condone bad behavior by its students in any way, shape, or form.

The college also continued to claim, though they couldn't prove it in court, that the Gibsons had a pattern of racist behavior. But what led up to the protests, and I think that's sort of kind of the core issue here, was some series of things that happened before, some perspectives about people's experiences in the store. Tell me about those then. Right. And be specific. Right. What specific incidents are you referring to that happened before? Right. I

Well, I think that the specific incidents would be the perception by faculty and students and staff and other people in the town that there had been disparate treatment with respect to people of color in the store. The way I would phrase it, kind of different lived experiences. And in the two years since the Gibsons had their name legally cleared, the college has continued to seek an appeal.

As you may know, the president of Oberlin College has recently indicated, from their perspective, the jury verdict is just the first round of what will be a long and difficult battle. It's become clear that the fight's not over. With that in mind, I've decided it's time to share some news my family has attempted to keep private until now. Just a few months after the verdict, David put out a video on Facebook.

As we've been going through this legal battle, I've been going through another personal battle. Late last year, I was diagnosed with the devastating news that I have pancreatic cancer. Once the next round of my treatments begin, I know this will be impossible to hide any longer. So I wanted you to hear it from me. Oberlin College has known about my health condition since February. Their legal team filed a motion to prevent any mention of my cancer diagnosis at the trial.

And honestly, we agreed because I wanted the jury to decide this case on the facts alone, nothing else. As you know, the jury sent a clear message that the truth still matters in this country. Every two weeks, we had to go back in for three day long treatments and he had to stop them right before the trial because he could not handle the heavy treatments they were giving him.

for him to sit in the trial. And so unfortunately, that's when the cancer spread very quickly because he couldn't continue with the treatments during that six weeks. On November 16, 2019, David Gibson, Lorna's husband of 40 years, the fourth in his family to run Gibson's Bakery, died of pancreatic cancer. He was 65 years old. He asked me to

Keep the store going. It's been going all these years, all these generations, and to just, no matter what, just to keep the doors open and keep the store working. He gave his life for the store. His dad gave his life for the store. I just have to keep it going.

Last month, a judge ordered that Oberlin College pay an additional $4 million in late fees on top of the initial judgment, which, due to some technicalities in Ohio law, brings the total that the school still owes the bakery to a little over $36 million. It's my understanding that you haven't seen any money from the college. Is that accurate? That's correct.

They refused. They refused to pay even after the appellate court came through with their decision on the 31st of March. They said they're not going to pay. They're going to take it on to the Ohio Supreme Court. Lorna has taken out mortgages on her home and rental properties to keep the bakery afloat. And still, she's had to cut the bakery's hours.

They used to be open from 7 a.m. till 11 p.m. Now they can barely stay open from 8 to 4, maybe 5. She says that they don't have enough workers, and plus, the students used to come in late. They just don't come in anymore. To this day, we are still being boycotted.

When the little tour groups go by, they used to say, you know, talk about, you know, going to Gibson's and all the things that we had here. Now they say don't shop there. I do get a lot of the parents from some of the new students, the freshmen and all that we were hoping as the years went by, the protester kids would be gone and new ones would come in. Well, I'm still hearing that it's still posted in the dorms to boycott us and, um,

the parents are coming in and telling me that their kids have been almost brainwashed, that it would be a terrible thing if they're seen in Gibsons. And I have had some that do come in and ask to use the back door so that they can leave without anybody seeing them. Lorna, how much time do you think the bakery has left, if you are being really frank? We're coming close. I think the college set out to...

They even said they were going to wait out until David and his dad were gone and that they're trying to bankrupt us. And I'm afraid we are coming very close. In February of this year, Alan Gibson Sr. died at 93 years old.

That makes two generations of Gibson's owners who did not live to see their bakery's reputation restored. I think it was the day before he passed, day, day and a half right before he passed, he talked to Alan and he said his last words to Alan were, do good, honest work. That's all he wanted. He just wanted us to carry on and do it all right, just like he had all those years. Do good, honest work were his last words to Alan.

For many, an Oberlin without a Gibsons is unimaginable. But for others, that's exactly the future of Oberlin they want. I think that there's such a difference, and I'm going to sound like a real Oberlin student here, but there's such a difference between someone's intention and the impact that it has.

Tyler Sloan, the Oberlin student who graduated a few years ago, helps make sense of how, despite the jury ruling in Gibson's favor, students are still angry. People can have the best of intentions and the impact of their words and actions can be received in the exact opposite way. She says that, to her, both the Gibsons and the students are right in their own ways. The students said...

on the record as part of the plea deal. You know, this was not an incident of racial profiling. And the impact on the community clearly was such that people didn't feel that way. They didn't feel like that was the truth. And I believe the people who felt like they had been racially profiled at the store, 100%, I believe that. I also believe that there were

other people in the town who were also people of color who went to the store and said that they had never had that experience. And, you know, for the Gibson's part, they clearly felt like their intentions were not racist. And I think that those truths can coexist. So you can say those were not the intentions. Nonetheless, I recognize the impact. And I think that

When we can have that conversation, there's a lot more room for dialogue and for moving forward and solving things within the community where they can be solved. In other words, the fact that both the jury and the shoplifters themselves have said that this was not an incident of racial profiling...

Those facts just aren't enough for many students. I think the question for me is whether it needed to escalate the way that it did. And there's often...

The event, and Gibson's bakery itself, is a place where the police are not allowed to do anything.

has become a symbol. Regardless of what the intentions were, we can all recognize that this incident had a major impact on the community. I worry about the future of this, of the town. I do. I'm worried that it will never be the close community that it was all the years I was here. That is a concern of mine for the future.

So right now, as students arrive from across the country for a new semester of college in the tiny town of Oberlin, Ohio, they're walking into an ongoing story. The protesters, no matter what you think of them or their tactics, appear to have been right on at least one key thing. The Gibson's Bakery story is bigger than shoplifting. It's become a story about power and about who wields it in this college town.

The people who stay for generations are the ones that come and go. If you could go back six years ago, would you tell your son, let the kids steal the wine?

No. The policy was it didn't matter who it was. You stop them. You go through the motions. And it could be as small as a toothbrush, but you don't do this. You were wrong. Let's get on with life. I mean, that's just the way it always was for 40 years that I was in the store, that, you know, you just, that's what you do. You just deal with it.

I'd like to get back on my feet again. I'd like to get things up and running to where it can be a lot easier. I would just like it to be over, one way or the other. I just would like to know what tomorrow's going to bring, that's all.

Just as we were about to publish this episode, news broke that the Ohio Supreme Court is not going to take Oberlin's appeal. It's unclear if the college can take the appeal to a higher federal court. But if not, this might be the end of the road for Oberlin. And the Gibsons will finally get the $36 million the jury awarded them in 2019. Oberlin College declined to comment for this episode.

Thank you so much to Susie Weiss for reporting this story. If you like this one, if you learned something, if your assumptions were challenged, if you heard things that provoked you or that you disagreed with, that's great. Please share it with people in your community, your friends, and have an honest debate of your own. For more stories like this one about higher education and so much more, go to commonsense.news and become a subscriber today. See you soon.