99\. Horror In The Mountains: The Khamar-Daban Incident
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Play Chumba Casino today. No purchase necessary. VGW Group. Void where prohibited by law. 18 plus. TNC Supply. It's August 9th, 1993. Alexander Kivitnitsky is on vacation with a group of friends kayaking down the Shnezhnaya River in Siberia, just a few hundred kilometers north of Mongolia. Thanks to a rainstorm a few days earlier, the swollen river offers the tourists a swift current and plenty of compelling rapids.

But at the moment, Alexander and his friends are paddling down a relatively calm stretch, enjoying the day. Above the treeline, they can see the peaks of the Commerdobbin mountain range standing at silent attention, snow-capped even during the summer season. The only noise comes from their paddles cutting through the clear water. That is, until they come around a bend in the river and hear screams.

Alexander spots a young woman on the far bank, barely older than a teenager. She's frantically waving her arms to get their attention, screaming in desperation, so hard that the veins in her neck are bulging. They can't tell what she's saying right away, but clearly something is very wrong, and the group paddles hard to reach her. When the first kayak touches the shore, the young woman practically throws herself at Alexander's friend, collapsing into her chest.

She's shaking and sobbing, barely able to speak. "Are you okay? Are you okay?" the group asks her. She finally manages to lift her head, tears staining her cheeks, and with a ragged breath, she tells them, "My friends, I think they're dead. I think they're all dead."

Welcome to Heart Starts Pounding, a podcast of horrors, hauntings, and mysteries. And today, I have quite the mystery for you, my dear curious listener. I'm going to walk you through the story and the theories about what happened to the girl's friends on the mountain.

I'm still trying to make sense of it all as I sit here in our rogue detecting society headquarters. I've been pouring through this research and I need your help to try and piece it all together. If you're new here, we are a community of darkly curious people and we publish new episodes at 7 p.m. Pacific on Wednesdays. That's 6 a.m. on Thursdays if you're listening deep in Siberia, in the town of Murino, where this mystery takes place.

The new year is a great time to find new podcasts also. So if you have friends or family that you think would like to join our rogue detecting society, make sure and tell them about us. Over the holidays, my sister-in-law actually told me that everyone in her hair salon is listening to the show now. So tag a friend and make sure to tag Heart Starts Pounding on social media or in a review if you do. I love knowing who you've put onto the show.

Now, let's get back to our mystery. And as always, listener discretion is advised.

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Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And we make a TV show called Severance. On January 17th, Severance is back for season two on Apple TV+. And we can't wait for you guys to see it. And before the premiere, Ben and I are going to be binging season one and putting out daily recap podcasts. Yep. Each weekday beginning January 7th, we'll be dropping an episode featuring exclusive behind-the-scenes tidbits and brilliant insights from our cast and crew and us.

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Our story starts a week before the young woman ran into Alexander and his friends on August 2nd, 1993. Then a group of hikers milled outside a train station in Murino, Irkutsk Oblast. Murino is a tiny town in southern Siberia, and frankly, calling it a town is kind of generous. There's a church, there's a train station, and a few guest houses for tourists, and that's

That's about it. It sounds a bit unremarkable, but the town is actually sandwiched between Lake Baikal, the deepest lake in the world, and the Qamar Dabin mountain range. So for three-ish months of the year, the temperature reaches the 60s Fahrenheit. That's just over 15 Celsius. The snow melts to reveal a lush green oasis, and Murino becomes a hotspot for adventure tourists.

But though it's a beautiful place in the summer, the area holds a bit of a dark secret.

See, Lake Baikal is an interesting lake for a few reasons. It's cold, very cold. It's slightly alkaline and the deeper you go, the less oxygen there is in the water. It's also nutrient poor, so not a lot of organisms grow in the lake. This makes it a great place for swimmers.

Under these conditions, it can be hard for decomposition to occur, meaning any bodies that are down there, nearly a mile below the surface, could be in near-perfect condition. Some people have imagined it like a silent ballroom down at the bottom of the lake, full of waxy dancers suspended in the waters.

And this lake would have been the first thing our hikers saw as they arrived in the area. They were all from Petropavlovsk in Kazakhstan, and they were members of the same hiking club. After months of training and the two-day train ride, they were practically buzzing with anticipation once they saw the peaks of the mountain range just beyond the massive freshwater lake.

But they couldn't get started until they got the go-ahead from their fearless hiking club leader, 41-year-old Ludmilla Korovinna. Ludmilla was an interesting paradox of a woman. Almost every article I've read about her uses the same photo. Her face is framed by soft, cropped blonde curls, her eyebrows are expertly tweezed, and the split sleeves on her dress are trimmed with black eyelash lace.

She doesn't look like an expert survivalist, and I think that's why I find her so interesting. She really showed people, especially the young girls that went on expeditions with her, that you can wear bows in your hair and eyeliner, and you can still summit mountains and camp in the tundra. She was like a blonde Bear Grylls.

For this expedition, Lyudmila was not just leading a hobby club. She was an expert and a professional at that, and she was going to hold these hikers to her standards. She had somewhat of a reputation for pushing her students really hard, preparing them for any and every scenario in the wild.

There's that old saying that goes, "If you fail to prepare, then you prepare to fail," and that is Lyudmila Tuati. She had hiked in this mountain range several times, so she knew what to expect for this trip and prepared her students accordingly,

issuing packing lists that included winter coats in case the temperatures dropped and a 2,400 calorie per day meal plan. Some of the hikers felt like the four meals a day and snacks that she demanded they eat was kind of a lot, but Lyudmila insisted that they be well fed. And maybe it was because she was such a seasoned hiker that she decided for this hike, she wasn't going to stick with the bigger group

No, she was going to take a smaller group of students that wanted a bit more adventure and trek higher into the mountains. So that day, the hiking club was split into three different groups with Ludmilla's 16-year-old daughter, Natalia, leading one of them. Each group was going to follow a route with varying degrees of difficulty, and in three days, they would meet up again when their paths overlapped.

And then they would hike together to Slyudyanka, where they'd all catch the train back to Kazakhstan. All told, they should cover roughly 130 miles or 209 kilometers over five days.

Ludmilla's group consisted of six hikers, all of them longtime members of the hiking club and personally trained by her. At 24, Tatiana Filipenko was the oldest of the group outside of Ludmilla. She had gone several trips with the club, though this would be the most difficult hike she had attempted.

15-year-old Tamir Bapanov was the baby. It was honestly rare someone so young would be on this difficult of a hike, but both of his parents were outdoorsy people, so he had been trekking through the mountains basically his entire life.

23-year-old Alexander Krizhin went by his nickname, Sasha. He started studying with Lyudmila when he was just 12 and they had a very close relationship. He was like a son to her. He'd spent the last few years at University of Moscow, but he came home specifically for this hike with Lyudmila.

17-year-old Valentina Udachenko joined the hiking club because she had been studying to be a tourism instructor. She'd hiked a few times already with Lyudmila. And then there was 19-year-old Denis Shvachkin, who was filling in for another student who backed out at the last minute. Him joining was actually so last minute, he only had time to leave a note for his parents, who were on vacation. And the note read, "'Went to the mountains. Be back soon.'"

And then there was 16-year-old Victoria Zalasova. Victoria had struggled on her last hike with the club and openly complained about how exhausted she was, which very much annoyed Lyudmila. Knowing how challenging Commerdobbin was going to be, Lyudmila actually told Victoria to sit it out, but the girl begged to come on the hike, promising to change her attitude, and eventually Lyudmila agreed.

This was the group that set out from Murino on the morning of August 2nd. In the few black and white pictures that exist of them, they look so young, but so excited, like a high school class about to go on a senior trip. The day they set off, the sky was clear, the sun was shining, and they were making great time. Everything was going so well. They even stopped for a few hours to forage for edible plants.

Ludmilla's group was on the most challenging route of the three groups of hikers from the club, but that first day they were handling it with relative ease. The hike they were on had a moderate difficulty rating. They'd be crossing over two different summits at over 7,500 feet elevation, but it's considered to be extremely safe, especially in the summer, which is when they were hiking.

On the afternoon of the second day, Lyudmila checked her watch and compared it to her timestamped map. They had hiked a long way so far, almost to the halfway point. She was really, really proud of her students. They had proven themselves over the last day and a half. And even now, as they climbed to higher elevation, everyone was keeping pace. And so she had an idea, a fun little game to push everyone just a bit harder.

She called out to the group and asked who would be the first to reach the summit. Sasha, Tamur. And then Lyudmila kicked up her own speed, which really challenged the other students. Were they all going to let their teacher show them up? So a race broke out at 7,500 feet, which is 2,300 meters. Everyone was scrambling to the top. 15-year-old Tamur started running, but then he was overtaken by 16-year-old Victoria and

She wanted to prove that she was up for the challenge after having difficulty completing the last hike she did with Ludmilla. Eventually, the whole group reached the retranslator peak and they were out of breath, partially from the altitude and partially from laughing. And it was there that they took a big look out at the mountain range behind them. 17-year-old Valentina was amazed at the sight.

Where she stood, she could see the other peaks on the mountain cascading down to Lake Baikal far below them.

They were up really high, like really, really high. They had climbed almost two miles or 3.2 kilometers into the sky in just under two days. Valentina was really proud of her group for what they had accomplished, but a small alarm bell went off in her head.

That much altitude in that short amount of time can be really hard on your body. But she wasn't really able to worry about that just then because Lyudmila called for all the pupils to come stand together on a platform marker for a picture. "One, two, three," she called out. And they all let out a cheer as the shutter snapped, throwing their fists in the air, victorious. They were conquerors in that moment, invincible.

After a few more photos and a well-deserved rest, they started their descent from the peak. It was time to go back down and meet up with the other hikers eventually, but the weather had other ideas. As Lyudmila looked out at the trail before them, she felt the wind start picking up, and she saw gray clouds being carried towards them from a distance.

The temperature also started dropping, little by little. And then it started pouring rain. The buoyant energy of the last two days evaporated as the group trudged on, soaked down to the bone. Even with plastic sheeting tied around their packs, the rain was relentless. Everything was getting waterlogged, which only added more weight to their backs and slowed their pace down.

It was making the hike a lot more arduous and it rendered Lyudmila's timestamped map completely irrelevant. It was designed to follow at their regular pace. She watched as the sun crept lower and lower towards the horizon until dusk settled in. And then she turned to the group and told them that they should stop here and make a campsite.

Here, Valentina looked around at where they were on an open, grassy plateau. It was a terrible place to camp in the middle of a storm. There was nothing to shield them from the relentless rain or wind. Maybe they should keep going just a little bit further until they found some tree cover. That way they would at least be able to make a fire and dry off.

But Lyudmila decided that they would be camping here on the plateau.

They got their tent set up, which at least provided some cover, but everyone was soaked by that point. The wind was also picking up and snapped the tent lines twice. It was also impossible to start a fire. Now, I want to quickly touch on something here. Ludmilla later faced strong criticism for deciding to camp on the plateau instead of continuing to descend until the group reached a tree line.

Any experienced hiker should know that as soon as you reach the forest, you can make a fire and warm up. Instead, Ludmilla chose a long, cold, miserable night for her group. But Ludmilla was an experienced hiker. She was a master, the most experienced of the group. So I have to believe that she knew the risk she was taking by camping on the plateau. And I wonder if there was some other factor that forced her hand into it.

The next morning, Lyudmila woke up groggy from a horrible night's sleep. The rain had finally stopped, thank God, but her relief was short-lived. When she stepped out of the tent, she saw probably the worst thing she could have imagined in that moment.

A fresh layer of snow covered the plateau in front of her. She gasped, and when she exhaled, it barely formed a fog in the air, as if her breath wasn't warm enough.

She quickly roused her students, telling them that they had to pack up now. They needed to get moving. They had to warm up. Remember, they were in wet clothes all night while it was snowing. While they broke down their tents, Lyudmila finally managed to get a fire going. It didn't really do much to dry their gear, but at least everyone was able to eat a hot breakfast. It was a start.

Once they were all fed and packed, they had to set out. Lyudmila carefully led the group down the slope, struggling to keep the wind from pushing her down the wet rocks, but they had barely made it 30 yards before she heard a loud crash behind her.

Sasha had stumbled and fallen. Lyudmila rushed back to help him and told Valentina to take the lead. She pulled Sasha back up to his feet, but had to support his weight in order to keep him upright. She had to keep him moving though, even if it meant half carrying him down the mountain. But then Sasha screamed and he collapsed hard onto the ground.

Before Ludmilla could move to pick him up again, Sasha's body started convulsing as if he was having a seizure. And then he started foaming at the mouth. To the group's horror, blood started pouring from his eyes and his mouth. And before anyone could decide what to do, how to help, Sasha went still. He was dead. He was dead.

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Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or DSW.com. - Lyudmila sat down on the rocks next to Sasha's body, awash with horror and grief. Sasha was one of her favorite students. She had known him since he was 12 years old. Looking into his vacant eyes, she already knew the truth of what had happened, but she still pressed her finger to his skin to just check for a pulse.

There wasn't one. She tried to keep her composure, but the rest of the group was in shock. They couldn't speak. They all had tears in their eyes. None of them had ever seen anything like this before. Sasha was fine two minutes ago. Lyudmila didn't know exactly what could have caused his rapid death,

But deep down, she knew that they had to get off this mountain now.

but she couldn't leave Sasha's body behind. She was still responsible for him. So she told the rest of the group that they should continue to safety and then send help back for her. The other five stood there for a moment, still too stunned to move, but Lyudmila wouldn't have been a master if she couldn't train her students to follow direction under pressure. So they started with their descent again, this time with Valentina in the lead.

leaving Lyudmila with Sasha's body. But as they started walking, just a few moments later, they heard another scream.

this time from Lyudmila. They immediately turned back, scrambling up the wet rocks to help their teacher. Tatyana reached her first. Lyudmila was lying still on the ground next to Sasha with foam around her mouth. In the moments since they left her, she had also died from what appeared to be the same symptoms.

Tatiana put her hand to her teacher's face and the rest of the group ran to her side. Everyone except for Valentina. Valentina got close enough to her teacher to see what happened, but then she took a few steps back. Something about this scene was not right. Something was definitely not right. And that's when she heard Tatiana start gasping for air.

She turned and saw that Tatiana was clutching her throat like she couldn't breathe. She sputtered and choked, clawing at her neck, raking deep red lines across her skin. Tamor and Victoria leapt to their feet, but

not to help her. No, they started scrambling to get away from the girl because they knew that this was some sort of sick pattern that was happening. Lyudmila had touched Sasha and then fallen sick, and then Tatyana touched Lyudmila. Whatever was happening, it seemed to be spreading through the group, jumping from body to body like a parasite.

Fearing exposure, Tamora and Victoria ran. Valentina and Dennis took refuge behind some large rocks, trying to hide, but Tatiana stumbled towards them, still choking, still desperate to breathe.

She fell to her knees and crawled the rest of the way to a large rock. And then seeking any form of relief, she actually bashed her head against it over and over, beating her own skull in front of Dennis and Valentina.

And right on cue, whatever this thing was hit Timur and Victoria next. They started coughing and spitting up blood. They were choking. They also clawed at their throats and then their arms and then torsos, tearing at their own clothing. Dennis ended up shoving Valentina out from behind the rock. They had to get out of there. But she was frozen in horror. He kicked her, forcing her to move.

"Go," he told her, "crawl down the slope. I'm right behind you."

And just like that, Valentina's fight or flight switch engaged and she descended in blind panic, refusing to look back. She ran and ran and ran until the snowy tundra melted into a more humid forest. And even then, she kept running until she felt the warm summer sun peeking through the canopy. She turned to Dennis to tell him that they had made it

but she realized that Dennis wasn't behind her. It wasn't clear at what point he had stopped running with her, but he definitely did not make it down the mountain.

Terrified and almost in hysterics, Valentina pulled her wet sleeping bag out of her pack and wrapped it around herself in a pitiful attempt to stop shaking. She laid down on her tent canvas in the cover of the trees, and then everything went black. She wasn't sure if she fell asleep or if she slipped into a coma.

But when Valentina woke up, it was almost 24 hours later, August 6th. It felt like she was waking from a horrible nightmare and reality sunk in when she looked around and realized that her friends were nowhere to be found. It was just her, alone in the forest. All she had was the pack on her back, no food, no map, no compass,

She had no idea how long it would take her to get out of the forest. So she knew that she had to get supplies, which meant she had to go back, back to where the bodies were. So she climbed back up and she saw the grizzly scene just as she witnessed it in real time. Except now Dennis was there too. It looked like he only made it a few yards before the symptoms had started.

For some reason, beyond anything she could comprehend, Valentina had been spared. Once she gathered the supplies she needed, she started back down the mountain to try and find help. She was totally disoriented and definitely in shock, but one clear logical thought seemed to permeate through the fog in her mind.

"'I survived,' she told herself. "'Just keep surviving.'" Initially, she used some power lines to guide her, hoping that they would lead her to a town or at least to other people. She wasn't really sure how she made it to the river where she saw Alexander. It was like some unseen force had been guiding her.

But while she was sitting there, she saw a group of tourists kayaking down the river, and she screamed to get their attention, flagging them down. She was saved.

The kayakers carried Valentina to Sledyanka, where she gave a statement to authorities. Like I said, she was still clearly in shock, so there were a few differences between this initial statement she gave and ones that she made later on, at least differences that I noticed while doing the research. But the main points of what happened remained. Her group started bleeding from the eyes, foaming from the mouth, and

And one by one, her friends had suffered horrible and violent deaths. But after the bodies were recovered, the coroner's autopsy findings were much more banal.

They didn't really match what Valentina had witnessed. He reported that the hikers died of general hypothermia, except for Ludmilla, who had suffered a heart attack. All six showed signs of bruised lungs and malnutrition, contributing factors to their deaths,

Basically, he ruled that this had been a tragic accident that might've been avoided if the group had been better provisioned. But when other people heard the official cause of death, particularly the hikers' friends and families,

This explanation just did not sit right with them. They were so confused. How could someone die from hypothermia in August? This wasn't the tundra. The average low in those mountains during the summer months was 45 degrees Fahrenheit. That's not really that close to freezing.

There was a photograph from the Plateau campsite. The grass was green and lush. One of the rescuers on the retrieval team claimed that the hikers hadn't had jackets on, and he blamed Lyudmila for pushing extreme measures on her students.

But again, we have pictures to show the contrary, multiple pictures showing them in jackets. Malnutrition also directly contradicts Valentina's account that the group ate four times a day plus snacks during rest breaks.

Hot meals were a must on this trip. She said, quote, "We had cereal, dry milk, crackers, stewed meat, carrots, beets, onions, candies, chocolates. I think the calculation was based on a 2,400 calorie per person per day." Bruised lungs also struck people as a little weird.

This is usually caused by some kind of blunt force trauma injury, like a car airbag going off and slamming into your chest.

But there's nothing in Valentina's statement to suggest that happened to any of the hikers, let alone all six of them. I will add here though, we might be dealing with a translation issue. The autopsy reports were done in Russian. A separate autopsy forensics report lists pulmonary edema instead of bruised lungs. And honestly, that makes a lot more sense.

Pulmonary edema means that there's too much fluid in your lungs. Literally, it used to be called lung water. It can be brought on by high altitudes, especially if you ascend too quickly. And there's a few symptoms of pulmonary edema that will sound familiar. Coughing up white froth,

gasping, wheezing, a feeling of drowning. Out of all the coroner's determinations, this is the only one that even comes close to explaining the hiker's bizarre and horrific symptoms before they died.

However, we looked into this and we found a paper written on high altitude pulmonary edema or HAPE written in 2023 that clarified you're typically not at risk for pulmonary edema until you reach 8,000 feet. And even at the top of the summit, the hikers were short of that, though this can occur at as low as 6,500 feet.

The first symptoms are a non-productive cough and chest pain, which it didn't really seem like any of the hikers experienced. They had ascended quickly, but not that quickly. They had given their bodies a little bit of time to acclimate. So even if the symptoms matched, it did seem unlikely that it was caused by the altitude. So if it's that easy to poke holes in the official version, what did happen?

As I'm sure you've guessed, there are all kinds of wild internet theories about this mystery. Here are three that I want you to consider. So I mentioned earlier that the group was making such good time during the first few days of the hike. They stopped to forage, and as a master survivalist, Ludmilla made sure that her students knew how to recognize edible plants. Basic preparedness. Well, what

One theory that I've seen crop up suggests that while foraging that day, the hikers inadvertently picked the wrong kind of mushroom. They cooked them for breakfast that morning and then one by one, they suffered an extreme reaction to a very bad trip.

The chemical in mushrooms that causes hallucinations is technically a toxin, but you have to ingest a lot of it before it becomes fatal. But theoretically, the hikers could have eaten enough to bring on overdose symptoms like seizures, psychosis, heart attacks.

And some people have reported hallucinating people crying blood while under the influence of mushrooms. This could also potentially explain why Valentina survived. Maybe she just didn't eat as many as the rest of the group. But...

That doesn't really sit right with me. Lyudmila knew what was safe to eat. And even if she didn't recognize the mushrooms, would she really take a chance on something unfamiliar unless it was a last resort? They still had plenty of food. It also seems like somewhat of a stretch that everyone in the group suffered from the most extreme worst case scenario trip reaction all within a few moments of each other.

Another theory plays on Cold War paranoia. The Kammerdaben range is vast, over 260 miles, and it's in a relatively low population of southern Siberia. Remember, Moreno, the tourist hotspot, barely has five buildings on the map.

What if the Russian military used this isolation to their advantage? Running covert operations or experiments in the mountains, Lyudmila's group was hiking a different route than most tourists. Maybe they surprised military patrol, seeing something that they weren't supposed to. Could that explain why the autopsy report didn't seem to match the symptoms? Was this part of a larger coverup?

But if that's the case, how did Valentina get away? Why wasn't she dealt with after she reemerged in Slidjanka or at any other point in the following 30 years? If we're playing the paranoia card, we gotta deal the hand all the way out.

Finally, there's a theory that a lot of people cling to, and I will say it's maybe the most believable. It's the nerve gas theory, which also carries shade of the sinister Red Scare. We know that the Soviet Union produced and used nerve agents, and the hiker's symptoms bear some resemblance to nerve gas poisoning. Seizures, heart attack, foaming at the mouth, bruised lungs...

One internet sleuth on YouTube who goes by Kadabr determined that one of the deadliest, most powerful nerve agents in the Soviet arsenal

was tested in Commerdobbin's surrounding area. But how were the hikers exposed? Well, Kadaber explained that these kinds of poisons can dissolve in water and remain suspended for several months. If there were nerve agent tests in the area, perhaps they contaminated a local water source and then remained there dormant. Then during the hike,

There was that huge rainstorm. Streams overflow, planes are flooded. The contaminated water moves into the mountain pass. After the rain stops, the water starts to evaporate. But the nerve agent gas remains, clustering low to the ground.

Somehow, Sasha is exposed. It gets on his skin and his clothes. Maybe this explains how the symptoms seemed to jump from person to person. Physical contact maybe spread the poison amongst them. But this theory doesn't really offer an explanation on how Valentina avoided exposure. In fact,

At one point, Victoria bit Valentina on the hand, so the chain of physical contact was met aggressively. And there's one last thing that I do want to mention about this. Pulmonary edema would explain many of the symptoms Valentina described. But again, it seems so unlikely that six experienced hikers would suffer from extreme altitude sickness at just 7,500 feet.

But what if the edema wasn't caused by elevation? Six months before the Commerdobbin incident, a doctor in San Antonio, Texas described a condition called hypothermic lung edema. In extremely basic terms, he theorized that patients suffering from even a mild case of hypothermia could develop pulmonary edema if their core body temperature wasn't increased in the right way.

The science behind this is pretty complicated. It uses terms like capillary permeability and respiratory acidosis and oxygen solubility. So I'm not really gonna try to explain it. The watered down version really isn't all that important anyways. All I wanted to point out is that it offers a different cause for pulmonary edema. It also might explain how someone could die from hypothermia in the middle of summer. They didn't freeze to death.

But maybe they were cold enough that when their body started to warm up that morning, it triggered the edema and that proved fatal. It's not a perfect explanation. It doesn't address why Valentina survived, but it does feel like a sort of middle ground between bruised lungs and nerve gas.

Today, the case of the hikers is officially closed. The official report says it was hypothermia and one heart attack. Somehow, in their report, Ludmilla suffered a heart attack at the same exact moment that six of her students died of hypothermia.

When asked in 2018, Valentina actually agreed with this explanation, though she felt like those symptoms fit what happened. She did mention that during the trip, she actually was chewing on golden root more than the others in the group. And one of the alleged benefits is reducing symptoms of altitude sickness, which could explain why she was the only survivor.

To me, there are two possible explanations, and both are honestly terrifying. One explanation is that a seasoned professional hiker, one whom all of her students trusted with their lives,

made a bad judgment call, which cost almost the entire group their lives. The other is that there was some factor in the area beyond everyone's control, just lurking on the mountain. And honestly, I don't know which one is scarier.

But what seems more realistic to you? Well, if you're a part of the High Council, you can join me on footnotes on Patreon where I'll be going over my research file on this case and sharing more of my opinions and theories as to what happened. But for now, that's all I have for you today. And until next time, stay curious.

Heart Starts Pounding is written and produced by me, Kayla Moore. Heart Starts Pounding is also produced by Matt Brown. Additional research and writing by Abigail Cannon. Sound design and mix by Peachtree Sound. Special thanks to Travis Dunlap, Grayson Jernigan, the team at WME, and Ben Jaffe. Have a heart pounding story or a case request? Check out heartstartspounding.com.

Will, talk to me. ABC Tuesday. They took his daughter. She's coming home alive. Will Tread, the series critics are calling powerful must-see TV, continues to thrill. Shouldn't we strategize before we go in there? If we screw up this case, a cop killer walks free. With a riveting conclusion to a two-part season premiere. Get down! Will Tread, all new Tuesday on ABC and stream on Hulu.