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Cheers. Hello, handsome listeners. This is your very good friend Tig Notaro along with my co-hosts Fortune Feimster and Mae Martin. Hello, friends. Hello, friends. Hello.
I have to tell everyone just ahead of time. Oh, yeah. Everyone buckle in ahead of time. If you do end up seeing a clip on Zoom, I did something I haven't done before and I adjusted my face on Zoom. Yeah. Yeah. On the touch up. The touch option. I've never done it. You and I, Fortune, we've been on this train for years. Like I am touched up to the max and I'm. Look at this.
shocked that you're not Tig and how do you feel about it? I am now. I am now. I touched up. How does it feel? Well, I, I, you know, I'm, I'll be 53 in March and I would say I look 49. I'd say you look like a pretty little lady. I'd say that too. Girlfriend. I don't mind a touch up because I have these bags under my eyes and it helps. It just,
wipes them away and you know now I'm glowing but then people see you in person that's my issue yeah they're like oh my god you have a week to live I want to use every tool at my disposal to look like a wax figure I want to be smooth and waxy do you think you're gonna have or maybe you already have face stuff done oh I've had a full facelift um
Yeah, I'm sure I will. I think the technology is going to get so good that it's just going to be like a little zap. And yeah, I got nothing against it. And would you just do injections of like Botox or would you get an actual... I think I'm actually more inclined to wait till I really feel like I want to do a full facelift. I haven't thought about this before and then do that. Do not do anything right now. You're young and gorgeous. No, we're talking... Fortune! Wait...
But those injectables are sketch, aren't they? People look very inflated. I've never had them. I know this is hard to believe, you guys, but I've never had work done. I
I haven't either, except on Zoom. That's where I go get my free work done. I picture taking my face off if I do anything. This is the only thing that I'm willing to do is have my face completely removed. What? Oh, wow. And then put an iron, use an iron to just iron out all the wrinkles. Yeah. Oh, my God.
That's pretty smart, right? I can't wait for technology to catch up to that. I so viscerally could see that process. It seems like technology will get to a place where you can just put your face... I mean, it's probably already there. It's probably actually way past my invention I'm about to share, okay? Thomas put this on the list. No.
But where you just have a computer recognize your face, do all your touch-ups and on the screen and then you just look like that throughout the whole movie. Oh, yeah. I think people are already doing that, aren't they? Okay. Well, no one's giving me the option. Yeah. I'm sorry. You wanted Thomas to put that on the list. Thomas, put it on the list, please, for our patent that idea. Yes, Thomas, patent that, please.
Well, because now we're on YouTube. Hanson is on YouTube. So we are going to need that feature. I don't know if, Tig, for One Mississippi, you were in the edit. So there were a couple of times where I was really pushing them to like...
get rid of zits or like smooth out my skin tone. And it would get to a point where they were like, if we just do this for you and no one else, it's going to look really weird. Oh yeah. Yeah. Cause you have this like smooth face and everybody else is like, yeah, I had to normal. I had to let go of that. Yeah. I, I, I didn't, uh, it never dawned on me.
I think when I was doing that, maybe I wasn't, I mean, I for sure wasn't quite as old as I am now. There's certainly been movies and TV shows I've been on where it's alarming when I come on camera. Because everyone else is. Everyone else looks so good and smoothed out. And I'm like, right.
I'm in this scene too. No, you're crazy. Well, no, I mean, I'm not somebody that's terribly hard on myself in that way. But I would say in the past couple of years, I've certainly noticed a change in my look, which is why I haven't done any adjustments specifically.
on Zoom and other things because I do think it can be alarming when you see people in person when their face is always adjusted and then you see them and it's like, oh, what's going on? Well, I saw you in person the other night and I was...
Very happy about it. Okay, well, I was happy to see you, but that doesn't mean that I'm... And you look great was my point. That's what I was waiting for. There you go. So what were you guys doing? Just hanging out? A couple of handsomes? A friend of ours had a Christmas...
thing for their company. Oh, I see, I see. And neither of us knew the other was going to be there. That's fun. As long as it wasn't like a one-on-one handsome excursion where you're dressed up like cowboys on horses. We were never without you. Propeller hats. Propeller hats all over the place. And we're just like, may who? Where's that little cowboy? Yeah. You just hired a little boy to...
To tag along. Yeah. That we pull in a wagon. Yeah. Just me and Fortune walking down the road arm in arm and just pulling a little red wagon with a little cowboy in the back. Well, we ended up sitting in the corner talking with each other for like two hours. Oh, that's so nice. Well, I told Tig I had just watched Tig's documentary. I had seen it before back when it came out, but I wanted to see it again now that I'm seeing
seeing tig on a much regular basis just to sort of you know revisit that time in her life yeah me too i i felt the same thing i want to re-watch it it's a good time it made me cry it made me cry but also made me very happy for where tig is at in life oh thank you thank you
Guys, I had a, oh, this is, I'm sorry. No, I thought you were going to say, guys, I have to go. Guys, I got to go. We're giving Tig too much attention. I got to pass on that. Yeah, sorry. No, I had a facial for the first time the other day. Have you ever had one?
Many. Yeah, I like a facial. Really? Yeah. I've never had one. I think I have. I mean, it's becoming obvious as we talk about these things. I have like weird face stuff and image stuff. I think there's a lot of talk about skin and skincare in my house when I was a kid.
kid and faces but I've never liked people touching my face or feeling like there's anything on my face but this woman who I'm involved with and live with bought me. A woman I'm involved with whose bed I share. Yes. Some might call her my girlfriend. Girlfriend. Yes.
She bought me a facial as a present. And actually the woman doing the facial was a previous Survivor contestant. So I was really excited to go as I'm a deep Survivor fan. And it was awesome. And she did these...
vibrating forks that she held i had that you haven't had the force doesn't sound like you had a facial i don't know what i had it was like you're a pa i mean i i came so is that normal uh wait i'm joking i didn't i didn't come but it was it was great and she did like um
Oh, never mind. I did not do that. It was amazing. It was so relaxing. Did she ever touch your face, though? Like, did she ever give you a facial aside from the other weird stuff? Yeah, she gave me like a facial massage. And then I guess she did the extraction thing, which I wish I could have watched it. Is that gross? Like I wanted to see up close. Some people love that. Stephanie loves that.
extracting things. They have that show Dr. Pimple Popper. Yes, they do. That's all they show and people are obsessed. Oh my, it is so gross. I...
You hate it? I hate it so much. I hate it, but can't look away. I guess probably me too. I guess what's psychologically satisfying about it is at the end, it's all clean and clear. It's seeing... Yeah, because I do enjoy them. And you didn't have a problem with her touching your face? No, I had to...
It was like exposure therapy because I really hate, I had this acquaintance who used to at parties, I barely knew her and she would come up and put both her hands on my face. Oh God. And kiss me on the mouth. No, no, no, no, no, no.
no time out. I know. And I would not be into that. So finally, after like years of this, I said to her one time, you have to stop doing that. I really don't like when you touch my face. And she did it again. I thought, well, no. Yeah. So what did you do? I think I just,
Would avoid her after that. Like I kind of thought, well, I gave you the warning. Yeah. And now you don't get me. Now I'm running across the room. Well, I have to say, May, this is another one of those two against one situations, I think, unless fortune speaks up. We'll see. I cannot stand my face.
Being touched. Oh, I don't care. But Jack takes it. Yeah. So Tig, you and I are. Yeah. Two against one here. I cannot stand it. However, you know, Stephanie, I'm good and fine with that. You know, if I'm with somebody and I'm involved, I don't mind. But when somebody just cat, oof.
Well, strangers or a person you don't know that well is weird. But even you, fortune, I don't want you touching my face. But I wouldn't. I love you dearly, not clearly. I wouldn't touch your face. You know what I mean? Well, I understand. But I'm just saying, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Absolutely not. Yeah. It's not okay. I touch my face and my mouth. Jax is always like, stop touching your face. Stop touching your face. Oh, really? Yeah.
Okay, so Jax is with us. Yeah, she... I have touched Jax's face once in our nine years together. No. And she hates it. Really? She's a... Hers is a big... She's a germ person. Very big... Love some... Anti-germ. Oh, oh. Um...
And just doesn't also like her basement touch. So I got the message on the first go. I often get told by audience members and things that I'm neurodivergent. I feel like it's like a spectrum, isn't it, of different things. And like there are things that I think...
like sensitivity to physical touch and things like that or like you know walking on my toes all the time i don't know i have i've heard that word more lately but i truth be told don't know what it entails me neither me neither okay well we should google it
Yeah, maybe Thomas can tell us at some point. But I've heard it, but I don't feel neurodivergent. But I also maybe don't know what neurodivergent is. Oh, here it is. Here we go. Definition. Thomas comes in very big handed. Okay. Differing in mental or neurological function from what is considered typical or normal. I mean, these, but all these words like, what is normal? Isn't everybody normal?
Everybody isn't everybody. I used to do this thing asking, you know, I like to ask questions and one of them is like, do you feel different to most people? Everyone says yes. It kind of reminds me of when people like to say that, you know, when you say, oh, I'm a comedian and they say, oh gosh, that's such a dark world. And everybody, everybody's so depressed. And, and it, and I've just felt like comedians are at a microphone and can enter our, our
on a stage so you're hearing about it but if you go next door your neighbor is probably dark or depressed or your mail carrier it's just that musicians comedians you have a platform yeah i bet there's like tortured button makers you know famously for sure button makers famously yes they are lots of tortured button makers they're drinking have you ever heard of joe
Joe the button maker? Hi, my name is Joe. I have a wife and three kids and I work in a button factory. One day my wife came and she said, Joe, are you busy? I said, no. Nobody's heard that. What are you talking about? I've rarely been speechless in that way. I feel like Tegan and I were both speechless. It's like a song for kids.
anybody works in a button factory but what kid would love that terrible song no but then guys stay with me what happens to joe hi i'm busy at or you know and then she said turn the button with your left hand so you start doing this okay the kids are for those of you can't see i'm turning the button so then you start over you go hi my name is joe i have a wife and kids and
One day my wife came in. She's the first song ever written for children. He said, turn the button with your right hand. Now you're doing this.
oh see the kids are moving their hands okay so what why are the why is his life story so kind of suburban and boring i mean it's just like hey my name is joe i'm telling you family i'm going to work i'm telling you sing this song with a five-year-old and see if they like it you move all you're turning your buttons with all your limbs
So the kids are like doing all these movements. I feel like the bar is higher now. Why not the hokey pokey? Why don't we have to limit ourselves to one? Joe, the button pusher or button maker? He works in a button factory, you guys. And he, you said there's probably dark buttons.
No, I know how we got there, but I'm shocked that this is, I've never heard of it. And it sounds like in the olden days where they hadn't invented toys yet and they gave people like a stick to play with. It's like that. It's like they hadn't invented songs yet. And they went, I guess this is a song. Yeah, they hadn't invented a children's song. And then somebody that had terrible ideas, a terrible voice. He's probably called Joe. I don't think you two are the target audience. Okay. I think my five-year-old friends that love music.
Songs that Rhyme are fans of Joe and his button factory. Okay. Well, it's also on the same album as I'm Betsy and I walk down the street. I put on my shoes and I wave to people because I have a hand and I can wave to people on the street. I haven't heard one rhyme. There's Betsy with her hands waving at us. She has shoes on.
Betsy. Tig, not one rhyme. Wait, I don't. Every five-year-old right now is like, the song needs, you know what the song needs? More rhyming. But there's no rhymes in the Joe one. Hi, my name is Joe. I have a wife and three kids and I work in a button factory. Hold on. That doesn't rhyme. No, it doesn't rhyme. Okay, man, she's a joke.
Are you busy? Here we go. I said no. Come on. Oh, my God. So Joe and no, that's the only rhyme? Oh, no, Joe, is what the song should. So it turns out there's only one rhyme. And I'm... But there's a lot here. There's one rhyme. There is nothing there.
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Listen, I'll dig into a shell for pistachio, but this is just so easy. You pop them in your mouth. I take them on trips. They are so good. So visit wonderfulpistachios.com to learn more. That's wonderfulpistachios.com. I was more into Betsy's story. She at least had a little pep. She was walking down the street. You know what? Betsy's a real bitch. My name is Betsy. You write a song. No, you write a new song, Mae. Okay, here we go. Hi, my name is Jessica.
And I walked to school, but on the way I saw a bus. It was a yellow bus. And on the bus was my old teacher who I hadn't seen since I was a little toddler. That wrong. That's wrong.
hit song you know what I take from this I could have done a lot better I'm gonna sleep no there's no way to top what you did Mae do you know what I take from this experience nothing because there was nothing happening there was nothing there was no song there was no rhyme I think that my song has inspired you guys to write other songs
That is a positive twist. And it would be called an inspiration. Hi, my name is Betsy and I have hands and I wave at people. Look, it's Joe, the guy that has buttons. I need to Google to make sure he does work in a button factory. Oh my God, if he doesn't. Where else is he?
If it's a bucket factory, we're... Oh, no, it is Button Factory. Oh, thank God. I will clarify one part of the song. Please, then it'll all make sense. This part always threw me. I was like, why is Joe's wife coming in to the Button Factory? It turns out it's his boss, not his wife. I'm sorry.
So it goes, you guys want to hear this? Hey, my name is Joe and I work in a button factory. Oh wait, I didn't, I got it out of order. Let me do it the right way. That's why it didn't sound familiar. Hey, my name is Joe and I work in a button factory. And one day my boss came up to me. He says, Joe, I said, oh wait, this person rewrote it. Nevermind. This also doesn't rhyme either.
I think people are making their own versions. Turning this off and leaving the show. This person says, I've got a wife and a dog and a family. Oh my God. I got a wife and a dog and a family. This reminds me of on SNL years ago. You know that Tracy Chapman song, Fast Car? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You're gonna have a car. Fast enough you can fly away. You're gonna make a decision. Luke Holmes just re-
Yeah, redid it. But on SNL years ago, they imitated Tracy Chapman sitting in her apartment in like New York and holding her guitar and looking out of the window and just being like basically naming anything she sees. That's funny. I didn't see that. Yeah, that was a good one. I don't think there will ever be a moment in time that I'm in a conversation with someone and they're
a button factory will come up and it will give me the opportunity to sing about Joe. So I just want to say, thank you guys for giving me that moment. You're welcome. And I want to say, how dare you push that terrible song on to us. People were mad at y'all a while ago for when y'all didn't know what bread and butter pickles are, just so you know. Were they mad? Can we say that? People were saying that they were screaming at,
into the ethers well bread and butter is a pickle you think there's my name is joe fans at home there will be a handful of people that say i know exactly what fortune's talking about that was my favorite song from my childhood and then everybody else will be like i've never heard of that song i don't know why it's bumming me out so much to think about a kid who that's their favorite song oh no why is it bumming
It's so sad. You want to talk about dark and depressing. You guys, kids love it because there's movement that goes with the song. If my kids came home from school and were like, oh my gosh, we just learned this incredible song. My name is Joe and I work in a button factory and I push buttons and...
i would call the principal well i would probably move them to a different school yeah no i think that's a reasonable reaction you don't think kids are coming home going when you're sliding in the first and you feel a big burst diarrhea oh my god that just brought back so many memories see that's fun of uh memories of your airbnb
Oh, God, yeah. I'm having an explosion. Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, by the way, not to change the subject, but real quick. No, please do. Please do. Please do. Tig, you told us a couple episodes back about the benefits of...
treading water for a long time. Yeah. Have you started? I've done it twice now. No way. How awesome does it feel? It's really great. I did it for 20 minutes each time. Fortune, I'm so happy for you. And when I'm in the water, I'm like,
There's no way this can be like doing anything because it doesn't feel that intense, right? And I put on a podcast one day, put on some music the next day because I can't just sit there with my thoughts for 20 minutes. Was it the Handsome Podcast you put on? It was the Handsome Podcast. And I was like, oh, that wasn't bad. I set an alarm. To wake up. Last night.
You're treading asleep, right? Last night I told Jax like five times, I go, I'm really sore. And she's like, I got it. You worry yourself. But it did more than I thought it did. Oh my gosh. And it works your entire body. And this is not a commercial for treading water. But man, do I try and encourage people if they can...
any interest in trying it out and it works for them because it makes my whole body not just feel stronger but like it loosens it up yeah I feel powerful even though I've done it twice I'm like I'm probably the strongest person there is
Probably. We could wrestle each other after you work up to my... I gotta do it for a while. Well, and you have to move up to an hour at a time. Do you think you can... I can't even imagine an hour though. You for real doing an hour? Every single time and I've never ducked out one minute early. Not once. How many days a week do you do that?
I only do it when it makes sense. I don't have like a workout regimen or anything or schedule. But yeah, when I go on tour, I bring my lesbian bathing suit and I... Sweatpants? Sweatpants, a bonnet and a winter coat. And my girls. And hiking boots. Yes.
So time for our question. This is an exciting episode. It's a very exciting episode. We have a question from... From an icon. From your good friend who's also one of the best actresses out there. She's pretty good. She's pretty good. Pretty good. Terrible person, but pretty good.
Pretty good at acting. She's an Emmy and Golden Globe winning actress known for her roles in American Horror Story, The Bear, American Crime Story, Carol, many, many more. She even made an appearance on my old podcast, Don't Ask Tig, and I cannot...
you enough to go back and listen to that episode. I cried laughing at that episode. Listen to the whole episode, but also find the video online of them talking about a gavel. It is this particular gavel that I hold whenever I'm podcasting. It is...
The wonderful and I'm embarrassed to say that because we don't talk to each other that way. But she is wonderful. She's one of the funniest people alive. Sarah Paulson. Okay, this question is coming from her. Hey, handsome pod. It's Sarah Paulson. And my question for you is, do you believe forgiveness is truly attainable?
Hmm. And it could be a multi-pronged question. Do you believe we as human beings are capable of true forgiveness? Not do you believe in forgiveness as a principle or an idea, but do you believe that we as human beings are capable of forgiveness?
And if so, what does forgiveness look like to you? Okay. Look, I know I teed her up as one of the funniest people I know. I like it. She's getting deep. I met her once, only once, and I really ran up to her with the familiarity that I shouldn't have had. Same.
Did you? And I went, oh my God, we both know Tig. But she was sort of at first a little bit affronted that I just run up to her. And then as soon as I said your name, she just like lit up and was so, so sweet to me. I think I met her backstage at that standout fest or whatever. Yes. Yeah.
Oh, that Netflix thing we did? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, I had never met her before, but I know so many people that are dear, dear friends of hers that I'm like, well, obviously we're now dear friends. Your best friend. She's like, I don't know you. Hello. Yeah. Dear friends by proxy. No, she was very nice, but we just don't know each other. But I'm like, this person's your good friend and they're also my friend. She's like, great. Step back.
Yeah, a security guard just comes and removes you. Can you please remove this woman? But I'm friends with Tig too! Is it just me, or has TV gotten really complicated? I'm either endlessly searching for my favorite shows, or I'm subscribing to like a dozen different streaming services to make sure I can watch everything that I love. Thankfully, Philo has changed all of that for me. One service unlocks.
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Get 80% off your impression kit when you use code WONDERY at Byte.com. That's B-Y-T-E dot com. Start your confidence journey today with Byte. But she is such a treat to watch on screen, and she has never not crushed it in an acting role. Oh my God. And I truly, she is somebody that I laugh at.
so hard with it's stupid Stephanie and I both we're just like when we have plans with Sarah we're like we are in for it for a real good cackle that's so good yeah those kind of friends are nice to have I don't think anyone says that about me I'm just trying to think if
I doubt that. I don't know if anyone goes, we are going to cackle. I think I usually got something going on. I want to talk about it. Because you want to get deep. I want to get deep. Well, now you're in the zone. This is your chance to get deep because this was a deeper question. Okay, I'll kick it off. I'll kick it off about forgiveness. I think... Well, I like the specificity of the question. Is it possible really to fully forgive someone? I think...
I think it is, but there might be like some scar tissue there and things might never be the same. But I feel like the evidence that it is possible is if you think back to like your 20s or something or how do I say this? Like there's stories from my life that for a long time I couldn't tell the stories without being physically tense, telling them and my heart rate going up and feeling it in my body in such a
tangible way and then having then processed it and dealt with it and like felt the anger and then got to a place of forgiveness or acceptance. And that doesn't mean like staying best friends with the person. I can now tell the stories without having a physical physiological reaction. I think that's like proof that you can actually be
let go of things in that way. You know what I mean? Like, imagine you get shot or something and then, you know, the wound heals over unless you can...
like you have to first feel the anger and the pain. Like you have to go in through the excruciating process of digging the bullet out so that the wound can actually heal. Because if you don't dig the bullet out because you're scared of actually feeling it, then it'll slowly toxify your body over time. That's my analogy. What do you think, Sarah Paulson? Well, I think letting go is a big...
part of it, which is probably the hardest thing for people to do, right? Yeah. Because a lot of, some people like really have their identity around holding on to trauma, to being that victim and they don't want to, whether or not they realize it or not, subconsciously, they don't want to let go of it because they've built
who they are so far around being wronged, you know? So that, that's a hurdle that some people have to overcome to truly forgive. And you don't want to lose your connection to that, to that person maybe, or to that thing. And like the anger and the resentment is almost, it's,
it's still a connection to that person. It's scary to let go of that sometimes. And sometimes like forgiving someone and letting go is kind of, that's the best revenge in a way. I mean, I guess to give sort of like a specific, a specific example in my life without going too far deep into it.
We want names. We want names. Yeah. Well, my mom, I mean, my mom, just say it's about Joe and the button. That's right. My mom would say, talk about this too. And so it's not like a secret. Like our relationship has definitely evolved over time. When I was young, we just really got into it and, and did not see eye to eye and like really struggled for a long time in our relationship. And it was such a source of, of,
um, pain for me back then. And there was a time in my life where I was like, I just don't know if we'll ever get over the humps that we have. And we kind of always have this dynamic. I don't remember. It started when I was young, but I don't remember exactly when, where I was kind of felt like more of the adult and she felt like kind of more of the kid. And I was always kind of the one that
like talking in the adult kind of way. And, and I remember I was moved the first time I ever like really realized like I missed my mom was when I, I lived in Spain for a year and something about being far away from each other. I go, I really miss my mom. And that started some of my healing and,
towards those issues that we had. And I had a very pivotal moment where I was moving to LA after I got from Spain, back from Spain. And she's like, I'll go with you if you want. And I said, sure. So we'll take a road trip, try to, you know, reconnect and see what each other's like. We hadn't been around each other much in a year. And we were walking through Vegas and
it was along our way. And I talked to her in a way that was that adult talking to a child kind of reprimanding. And someone said, don't talk to your mom like that. And, um, well, but I overheard you. Yeah. Yeah. But I wasn't taught said that. Yeah. And I go, and I go, I, and I talked to her that way because I had resentment, right. Had resentment from our issues. I couldn't let them go. Yeah. And,
when I heard that I thought oh I had this light bulb moment of like if I don't let go of this resentment and this hurt and let her grow we'll never have a relationship yeah I can't and also her job was to be not the person you know she had to grow up too yeah and change I couldn't just forgive her
without also there being some change on her part. And it really changed our relationship. We started from that moment talking to each other better, seeing each other in a different light. And I was like, I have to allow her now to be my mom and me be the kid. Vegas does that. Vegas does do that. Vegas is so healing. But we have had, we're very close now. A lot of people,
you know, she's in my comedy a lot. She's been on another podcast I do that we, that she's a big part of my life and we're very close, but it was such a journey. Did you directly address like,
everything with her or is there some stuff that's just water under the bridge that you don't talk? Cause that's my thing. There's a lot of stuff I can't talk about. Um, we will talk candidly about some things and go, you know, man, that, you know, that was a tough time. That was a really hard time. And then there are other things she just doesn't want to talk about. It's too hard for her to talk about, you know, she, she, after my parents divorced, they just both kind of took some time to find themselves, um,
And, you know, it was just a tough time. And she doesn't love that time in her life. And even now, if I've tried to, like, touch on it and stand up, she's like, I don't like that. I don't like it. It's too hard for her. And I get it. I get it, you know, but... And does she let you do it? Do you continue to do it? Or do you drop the material? I drop the, like, the big details of it and kind of just touch on a little bit of the lighter stuff. What if you found out...
One of two things. One, that she had paid that person in Vegas to say that. Yeah.
and hired someone or two that it was me who said that that I was the stranger who said that and you took the cash and you took the cash okay the irony is that I was a good kid like I was a very like I was a good responsible kid I did everything I was supposed to do so it's when I tell you that story it sounds like I was a piece of shit no I was talking bad to my mom but it was just we had developed such a a
weird relationship in that way where I had to kind of be like you know reprimanding her yeah and um because she had not taken on the the adult reigns it for a few years and I had stepped into this other role and we had to shift back into our roles and it was it was a weirdly powerful moment like
That if I had been in a different place with her, I would have heard that. And they're like, you don't understand. Yeah, it's our past. Case specific too. Because with like some relationships, you, if you decide I want to have this person in my life, then that's one thing. Then you kind of, you got, but other people, you can forgive them and still decide like,
I can't have that person in my life, but I still forgive them. Which I think that happens too quite a bit where people are like, I do forgive that person, but I'm moving on. I for sure have had that where it's like, yeah, yeah. And does it help once you make that decision of like, I can't have you in my life? Does that help you to sort of forgive them? Like having the space and...
Well, there's that. I think there's also people I've forgiven where I've just been like, yeah, I don't care if you're in my life or not in my life or where it's just like, I'm just done. And, and, um, yeah, I think there's different levels of people where I was like hard pass, toxic, no, thank you. Keep it moving. Then there are other people where I'm like,
I feel like there's some toxicity there. There's a hard pass. No, thank you. But there's also like, I can be around you. You know, I get why you are the way you are or the way our dynamic does not gel. But like we were saying, May, before we got on this episode, my ex that I was with during when my life fell apart in 2012, we were struggling.
so estranged. Yeah. It was tough times. But now, like literally last night,
Our families were hanging out together. The latest Max and Finn have ever been out at night. We had so much fun. And she texted me this morning, just like, we have to do that all the time. And it's the best feeling. I know. So then you think like, well, if now you're so reaping the benefits of having that person back in your life, then it's like,
I think I owe, even though I can have really firm or I'm learning to have like firm boundaries with people who I think are really bad in my life. I, the door is kind of always open if they, if the growth is there and they come, people are actually doing the work on themselves. I, there are so few people that are like irredeemable right in the, in the world. Like as long as you're just protecting yourself and I find it a lot harder if people are hurting like
people I love then I can go hog wild yeah and yeah you don't want to see me go hog wild guys it's uh May's going hard wild buttons flying well time certainly helps with a lot of healing and forgiveness and things and you have to kind of decide do I want this person in my life anymore um and sometimes you have a conversation with each other where there is forgiveness and you go
Thank you for saying that. And I wish you well, you know, and there's some, I,
I don't have a lot of people in my life where I don't talk to them anymore. But every now and then you just kind of grow apart or for whatever reason. And the best thing is just like, I do genuinely wish you well. Yes. Well, and I think that's something that people don't understand is that sometimes relationships run their course and it's completely fine to, um,
cut that loose and it doesn't have to be dramatic it doesn't have to be ruthless or mean but it's just like
this relationship is friendship, work, whatever. It's just not, it's not making you feel good anymore. And, and that's all right. Super grateful though for like the forgiveness I've been afforded by people as well. Like I, I have an ex who is a very good friend of mine who like, cause really, but I also had to do the conciliatory work of like taking responsibility for stuff, but oh man, I'm so I, I try to think about that. And then also I,
some quote that's like mercy, like real mercy is what you give people who don't deserve it. Like, and that's what really takes effort. But if, if you can get there, like it's a, it's a real physical relief on yourself. It's even just from a selfish point of view, like it is heavy carrying around that raging sense of injustice. You know, I talked to an ex of mine that, um, it was a little awkward because we are good friends and,
And I know I was not at all meeting her at the same level. And frankly, that's been many relationships of mine where I just wasn't available and I couldn't do... I just wasn't capable. And I wasn't present. When you were dating? Yeah. Or maybe I didn't... We just didn't have exactly the same feelings. But I could really...
see how I was hurtful to this person. And it was like years, like so long, probably over a decade after we dated that I like really was like, Hey, um, I just wanted to say something, you know, and just brought that up, you know, and had a very uncomfortable, where she was so
Open and kind about it, but I just needed to say, I know I hurt your feelings and I was not easy and I am sorry. And I was just thankful that
She was open to hearing that. Yeah, that's great. Well, don't you think a lot of those way down the road apologies are more for yourself? For sure. Than for the other person? You're like, I just need them to know. A million percent. But it also felt good to know that
Because I don't think I fully understood the ways that I hurt her until I did some growing and changing. And yes, it helped me feel better. But I do feel like the way she received it and said, I think she even said thank you. And I...
I can't imagine that was easy. Yeah. You know, and I could, I think it did land and it felt good to her to hear that. And that's always nice because sometimes, sometimes you're like, you know, deep down, like that,
it wasn't you per se. And then when someone tells you, you feel like a little less nutty. You're like, oh my gosh. Yeah, like I'm so glad I wasn't like in... Or when there's people that are toxic that hurt you and you hear from other people how toxic...
And hurtful those people were. That's so validating. That was the juiciest feeling. You experienced that too? Yeah. Like, oh my gosh, yes, yes. Yeah. But man, you hear about these stories of like, like restorative justice or like people who've had family members murdered and then they go to the prison and they're sitting with the murderer and saying, I forget. Like, that's pretty amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm always in all of those people standing in a courtroom in front of someone that's
to someone they love and when they offer that true forgiveness, you're like, that...
You had to dig deep for that. It's pretty impressive. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think there people certainly can reach true forgiveness. A, it depends on the person who's doing that forgiving. It depends on who it's towards, you know? Yeah. I think there's a lot of circumstances there. Yeah. And sometimes you got to do it without expecting reciprocity. Like just do it inside yourself. Yeah. Yeah.
I do you guys forgive me for before when I improvised the song and it wasn't funny or good.
Oh, I didn't hold any resentment towards you. I was impressed that you were trying to make your own song. I could take that, yeah. I guess, do you guys forgive me for... I still, I don't forgive you for Joe. Joe the button pusher. Can you please forgive me for bringing up Joe the button maker? No. Look, I'm going to forgive you only so I can release myself from the anger. Okay. But I don't, but I haven't forgotten. That is true. If you hold on to anger, it is...
just not good for you yeah it's true oh my god great bumper sticker also by the way when you mentioned friendships running courses it takes me back to the old reason season lifetime what's that you guys never heard that no so you have friends for a reason a season or a lifetime friends coming to your life for a reason
you're both at a certain place in your life oh i have heard that maybe you're single and you can like go to the bars together hang out or like you're missing something in your life and this person really brought something in that for that specific moment time you needed that person in your life
Uh, so that friendship might run its course because it was there for that specific reason. And now it's no longer a season. It's just like, Oh, I was really good friends with this person. We hung out all the time and now we don't hang out cause we're busy. There's no hard feelings. It's just, yeah, it's just like a season of your life. And then the friends that are there for a lifetime, like this is a person I've known forever. We can go months and months and months without talking. We pick up where we left off and that friendship will always be. I like that.
And have you actually applied that fortune where you're like, yeah, reason, season, lifetime, and then you just let it go? I just text them reason, season, lifetime. I just text them reason, season, lifetime.
If I get a text... Can you imagine just getting a reason, season, lifetime? That's all it says on a text. Or what if you make a new friend and you send them like three check boxes, reason, season, or lifetime. They check which one and then you know going into it what your expectations are. Yeah, what they think it is. But things change. That's true. Things do change. You have some friends you think are lifetimers. Oh my gosh, it's crazy when lifetimes are...
And it fizzles out. Yeah. But that goes with dating too. Reason, season, lifetime. I think you guys are starting to get into this rhyming thing. Well, yeah. And you need to. Because you sing an entire un-catchy song. With not a rhyme in it. Not a rhyme, reason, season, or lifetime in it. Because I believe in true forgiveness, I'm going to forgive you guys for trashing my button song. Okay.
Do you, I don't know if I've told this on the pod before, this little, uh,
anecdote about a bird and stuff. Please, is this a May fact? Sort of. That sounded so unappealing. This little anecdote about a bird and stuff. This bird, he forgets to go south for the winter because he's having so much fun. He's partying and so he forgets to go south and then he looks around, all his buddies are gone and he freezes. As it gets cold, his wings freeze so he can't flap, he can't fly away. And then a cow is walking down
And shits on him. This is a children's story? I don't know who the target audience is.
but he's now covered in cow shit and but the cow war it warms him up and it thaws him but then uh he's stuck in the shit and so this cat is walking by and he's going let me out of the shit and the cat gets him out of the shit and then eats him and the moral is not everyone who shits on you is your enemy and not everyone who gets you out of shit is your friend whoa night night kids good night
But it's good because, you know, with forgiveness, like, you know, not everyone who wrongs you is your enemy because you might learn a lot from them. You could, if you reframe it as like, wow, that really taught me something. Yeah. I mean, you can still learn something from people that don't know that do and they meant to. Yeah, that's true. You can for sure walk away going, all right.
Less than learned. You can learn stuff from people's shit. That is true. Reason sees in the lifetime. But it also is helpful when other people in your life do admit to their part in it. It's really hard to move on or find some path forward when the one person...
They're so wrong that they're like, I can't even face it. So I'm just not going to talk to you or we're going to have a dysfunctional relationship. It is helpful when you can bring your own awareness to the situation. Yes. Yeah. And a sense of injustice is hard when you want everyone else to... When they have a strong narrative of why they're right and they're popular, they're out, they're talking and you got...
you find yourself ranting to your friends being like, but don't you understand about this and this person? And then you got to let go and be like, yeah, you gotta let go. Yeah. Let go and let God. Let go. Let God reason season lifetime.
Man, we're like dropping some nuggets today. Well, should we hear what Sarah has to say? Absolutely. So I realize that I'm asking a question that I myself wrestle with. So I'm not quite sure that I will have an answer in a compact sense in terms of having gotten to the end of the process, but
of what it means to forgive or what it looks like to forgive? Or do I think it's possible for human beings to really forgive? I think the truth is, for me, it lives somewhere in the space of, and it's not that it depends on the situation, because even in the smallest situation, I sometimes wonder if forgiveness is something we seek.
therefore would like to believe we've arrived at, in, whatever the grammar would be there. But I sort of feel like forgiveness feels aspirational to me. I'm not sure I've ever had it really settle into my body in terms of having felt that I've been wronged or harmed emotionally or intellectually or spiritually and
felt that I was able to truly forgive, like purely. I'm talking about the purity of forgiveness in an almost holy sense. I've never been able to achieve it. And there is a part of me that has come to consider that maybe it is something to aspire to, but that it is maybe not something that I personally feel we are
fully evolved enough to experience. I wonder if we think we have, and maybe I'm speaking entirely personally, which is what I'm trying to do here, which maybe I'm not doing very well, but the idea that I think I know what it feels like to forgive intellectually. I'm not sure I know what it feels like to forgive completely and truly and wholeheartedly in my heart. I think sometimes...
Those two things don't feel integrated for me. And this is one of those things that feels like it lives in an ambiguous space. So maybe I asked a question that ultimately doesn't have an answer. And I think that's okay too. And I also really might be speaking to a personal limitation that I have and that I would like to find a way to not...
be limited by. And at the same time, I sometimes think when we live in a world where people talk about, you've got to forgive, you've got to forgive, you've got to let go, you've got to let go. And although I think that is the most, probably most challenging thing in the world to do, but also one of the most significant things to reach for in one's life. At the same time, I just sort of feel like
It sets us up sometimes to feel like we're failing if we're unable to, you know? And I wanted to sort of release myself and anyone listening from that feeling of failure if they feel unable to arrive at a place of forgiveness when they've been wounded, you know?
I don't know. That's, that's nice. Yeah. Like I really need to hear that. Yes. And I really relate to it's, it's can be infuriating when people are like, you have to forgive and forget. And it's like, I don't have to do anything. Like leave me alone. Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, it's gotta be possible, but no, uh, it, it, it,
No one can tell you to do it. You have to feel the anger first. And I think it's case by case. Well, I get what she's saying. It's like we think like, oh yeah, we forgive and forget, move on. You might forgive, but there is something probably internal that is holding on to some morsel of something to reach the highest level of true forgiveness where you feel where you're cleansed of it.
might be a level that humans as is are incapable of reaching aside from a small handful. I have a fact. Oh boy. Let's hear it. They did a study and of all these different species like gorillas, dogs, all kinds of species, dolphins. And after they would get in physical fights, they would
all of them like have a reconciliatory moment later if they're in a little small community like they they would go and like hug later or have a moment except cats cats do not do it cats if they they wrong each other they're they're holding on to that they're holding on to that grudge or they're not making up wow interesting
Well, you know, at the end of the day, we all have a little ego involved in the hurt. So that also makes it hard to...
Fully move on. I mean, it's no good if you're beating yourself up about it too. I think it's a cool way to think about it. Like she, Sarah said it being an aspirational thing. That's a, that's enough. I think if you're, if you're having the, having the aspiration of like, I'm going to work towards trying to be better at forgiving to the best of my ability. Yeah. That's very aspirational. And it's also worth it to just have those very deeply uncomfortable moments
where you have conversation with people because when you stay in conversation in an argument or all of that, and you don't let the bridge between you fall, it's really helpful and it's hard. It's so hard. Yeah. I think that's why that ghosting became a thing because people did not want to have uncomfortable conversations. They did not want to face...
having to let someone down or tell someone this isn't working out. Yeah, I guess. If you force yourself to have those uncomfortable conversations, it is...
for the best in the long run. Yeah, it gives the other person an opportunity to grow. Otherwise, over multiple lifetimes, they're going to be inflicting psychic wounds on people. That's right. Without ever evolving. They're going to just stay a cat. I think we also don't want to get on Sarah's bad side. Oh, one million percent. I agree with everything she said. Yeah, because I don't think she'll forgive us. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, if she'd like to hang out. Yeah, Fortune and I are. Since you guys are friends. Maybe she'd want to go hiking with you. Look, give her your email. Give her your email. Give her my email. No, you and Sarah. I'll make sure to check my spam in case I don't hear back from Sarah. Okay. Well, we appreciate Sarah giving us such a lovely and thoughtful message.
and answer. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. Thank you so much. We appreciate everybody for tuning in to this week's, uh, episode of the handsome pod. Uh, some cool things. Uh,
we're still selling merch. We are. It's flying off the shelf. So get yours now. Get it now. Seriously. We might be adding a few more new things at some point just because it has been so popular and we love people out there repping Handsome. We've been tagged in a lot of posts. You can go to handsomepod.com to get that merch.
Also, thank you to everybody. I think we said it before for tuning in to our first live show. That was so cool. The live stream. And subscribing to our YouTube page. Yes, indeed. And liking and sharing and telling your pals. Telling friends. Tell your friends and review the podcast.
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YouTube.com at the symbol at handsome pod. That is where you can see our beautiful faces. Handsome. Fortune, what do you have coming up? I have a lot of fun shows. I'm on tour. I'll be in...
Washington, D.C., and then for my European folks, London and Amsterdam, the end of January. Madison and Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Wisconsin. Oh, fortune. I forgive you. Wisconsin. I forgive you. Houston, Los Angeles.
New York City and Toronto dates are all up there and I'm doing my next special in Seattle. Those tickets are up for April. Go to fortunefeimster.com for tickets. Nice.
Well, I'll tell you now, if anyone cares, I'm going to be in Peekfield, New York on March 8th. And then I'm also going to be in Maryland. I don't have that in front of me, but I think that's January or February, maybe April. I don't know. Also going to be at Largo and Dynasty Typewriter.
Here and there, Stephanie and I have, we did a show the other night called She Said, She Said. And I heard about this. We sat on stage together and I talked about our relationship and family and everything. And then she chimed in with her thoughts. And then the audience would chime in with things that they related to about what we were talking about. It was really fun. And I think we're going to.
uh, continue to do that. Yeah. That's great. I got very little to say for myself, except this comes out on the 15th and on the 16th of January, I'm at Largo, um, with a very exciting surprise guest. Um, and, and you two are going to do it. You're going to be there as well. I have it in writing by a text that you guys are down. You're going to, so that'll be all three of us at Largo. Um,
Yeah. That would be super fun. We're going to blow the doors on that joint. Also, make sure you go to Tignotaro.com for any shows I'm forgetting and apologies for any cities that are like, what? I thought you were coming. I am. I'm probably going to be there. I just forgot.
All right. Until then, keep it handsome. Handsome is hosted by me, Tig Notaro, Mae Martin, and Fortune Feimster. The show is produced, recorded, and edited by Thomas Ouellette. Email us at handsomepod at gmail.com. Follow us on social media at handsomepod. What a podcast! What a podcast! What a podcast!
