Debate Post Mortem
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Hey, pull up a chair. It's Hacks on Tap with David Axelrod and Mike Murphy. It was the best debate I've ever personally that I've had. We're getting polls that show 92 to 6, 88 to 11.

We're having a lot of great polls that just came out. There are polls, I guess, phone polls and lots of other polls. But you see the polls. A very important debate. Now, she wants to do another one because she got beaten tonight. But I don't know if we're going to do it. So there you have it, boys. A big win for Donald Trump, according to Donald Trump and polls, instant polls.

Minutes after the debate that he claims has 92% saying that he won. Yeah, you know, I've got that poll. I have that poll right here. It's the Fabrizio poll. And the margin of error is until I get all my outstanding invoices paid by this dying campaign. Then it's going to get recalculated. But get paid, Tony. Yeah. So Murphy Heilman on No Planet.

Would anybody but perhaps the Hungarian judges root that rule, judge that as a as a win for Donald Trump? That was that was pretty much of an ass kicking.

Uh, you know, yeah, yeah. I mean, I've never seen the samurai move where the razor sword is pulled out and then the samurai chops off his own legs and arm, but the corn is calling this one a suicide. When I heard that Scott Jennings line last night, which was really good, uh, from your thing, which is, you know, you can't really work the refs if you can't make a shot. Um,

Um, I, I actually thought like there were a whole bunch of these were like, Trump was throwing alley oops to her, like his, like on the wrong, like not just an own goal, but like, you're like throwing alley oops into your, but it's the defender over your basket. Like, um, it's just that there's another version of the suicide thing. It's just wild, just wild, totally wild. And, and I, I, you know, I, I, you know, so,

I like to think of last night as a podcast title for my own was slaughterhouse 45. It's like, I mean, I have it on good authority that the Washington generals made a cash offer to him today. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't think there are that many Washington generals who are that fond of him, but go ahead. As a debate, quad debate, it was a wipeout. I mean, quad debate. Like, what the political implications are, we can talk about all day. But, like, just as a matter of, like, just stagecraft, strategy, performance, the whole thing. She wiped the floor with him. She was incredibly well prepared. That was very, very obvious. But what was most obvious is that part of that plan was to go to those...

hot buttons of Donald Trump and just said that it was like watching a fireworks show, like one going off after another. But the one that really, really, I thought, defined the evening and set him on an irrevocably bad path was when she went to his most sacred topic, which was crowd sizes. Let's listen to that. He's going to talk about immigration a lot tonight, even when it's not the subject that is being raised.

And I'm going to actually do something really unusual. And I'm going to invite you to attend one of Donald Trump's rallies because it's a really interesting thing to watch. You will see during the course of his rallies, he talks about fictional characters like Hannibal Lecter. He will talk about windmills cause cancer. And what you will also notice is that people start leaving his rallies early out of exhaustion and boredom.

And I will tell you, the one thing you will not hear him talk about is you. You will not hear him talk about your needs, your dreams, and your desires. Did you see the look on his face when she said they left in exhaustion from his rallies? It's like he'd been kicked in the balls and was trying to pass a very large kidney stone at the same time. You always have such elegant ways of...

framing stuff so uncomfortable he looked so pained by the whole thing like you know it was funny when she started that i thought uh-oh she's gonna go into the condescending obama gods and gun stuff and blow a finger off here fancy oakland fancy beverly hills style but it was just the setup and then she got to the the pure nerve center right in his

bottom of his brain about his beloved crowds. And it was great because he, it was the Cy war debate, by the way. I mean, you can do a mashup, you know, Goldman, they think you're an idiot at Wharton. They hate your plan. You don't have crowd sizes. Your generals think you're not a man. You know, the foreign leaders snicker at you. I mean, it's just one after another. And you went for it every single time. Our Labradoodle goes for the tennis ball less and,

Then he jumped at every, every poke. - Or for the piece of bologna, like with my great Daniel, like, takes my arm off every time he sees it. It was incredible to watch. And I wondered, you know, Mike, you last night when we were texting, you made this point, which is, you know, a thing you've been stressing for some number of these episodes before the debate, which was that, you know, you wanted her to do a bunch of kind of elevating above the debate and talk to the people at home and sort of, you know, like kind of get out of the tit for tat, right?

And one of the things that you guys both know is like when you're in a debate and something's working, you just keep doing it. Right. It's like, it's like a great athlete. Like Michael Jordan, you know, Allen Iverson does the crossover and he leaves somebody on the floor. He's going to keep doing the crossover until that guy figures out how to defend it, you know? And she just saw it was working. I don't think that, that I think that that was what she was going to do.

from start to finish. I think that, you know, when you prep for a debate and we should listen to Trump's response just to give people a sense of how bad it was, how bad it was. But when you prep for a debate and you're really well prepped, there's not a lot of surprises in that debate. And you could see she was laying on every pitch. It was it was really something. But let's listen to what Trump said after she went after the sacred crowd, you

the sacred crowd totem. She said people start leaving. People don't go to her rallies. There's no reason to go.

And the people that do go, she's busing them in and paying them to be there and then showing them in a different light. So she can't talk about that. People don't leave my rallies. We have the biggest rallies, the most incredible rallies in the history of politics. That's because people want to take their country back. Our country is being lost. We're a failing nation. And it happened three and a half years ago. And what's going on here, you're going to end up in World War III, just to go into another subject.

What they have done to our country by allowing these millions and millions of people to come into our country and look at what's happening to the towns all over the United States. And a lot of towns don't want to talk. It's not going to be Aurora or Springfield. A lot of towns don't want to talk about it because they're so embarrassed by it. In Springfield, they're eating the dogs, the people that came in. They're eating the cats. They're eating animals.

They're eating the pets of the people that live there. And this is what's happening in our country. And it's a shame. Oh, no. Oh, it's a shame. All right. First of all, we should point out that that that the lead into that is

The question was about immigration, and he could not keep from taking the bait. And as soon as he said, no, I have to address the crowd size thing, you could see Kamala Harris was thinking, we got him. Yeah, I just won the lottery here. He's going to jump right into the wood chipper. This was Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson and a few good men. He was Colonel Jessup.

And she was, uh, she was crowd sizes. You can't handle my crowd sizes. Exactly. But I really think from that point on, he was, he was done. He was done. If she had gilded the lily one more guild and just mentioned, you know, they put that video out of Obama making fun of his penis, um, that yesterday just to set this up even more. If she had gilded the lily one more step and just mentioned Obama and did like a little thing with her hands,

She could have gotten him to talk about his, she could have gotten him to talk about his in the presidential debate. I don't think she wanted to go to those lengths, but that would be for hardcore fans like you, Johnny. I think the rest of us are just fine. I keep, I keep trying to find new Lowe's Murphy. That's the thing. That used to be my job. One thing I will say, you know, I, I think I agreed with Mike and I, my feeling was do not let him let you lead you down.

These dark alleys and get angry and respond to him and let him dictate the debate. She didn't do that, but she was more prosecutorial than I would have expected. And I realized during that debate that she was doing what she feels comfortable doing.

And one of the things that's really important in presidential politics and in these debates is, do you look comfortable? Do you look like you're in command? Are you having fun? Are you a human? Yeah, exactly. And you saw, for those of you who watched the debate or who are watching this on YouTube, you saw how she reacted. And she clearly...

did some work on that as well, but she looked like someone who was in the moment and on top of the moment and enjoying the moment. And, uh, uh, that was really important. The other place where I thought, and you guys, let me know what you think about this, but on the, the, where she really started taking off and we'll talk about where she, the beginning of the debate, which wasn't as good, where she started taking off was on the abortion issue and,

And it's very clear how passionately she feels about that. But Trump got the question first. This is a huge vulnerability for him. Let's listen to Trump and then let's listen to Harris back to back. Every legal scholar, every Democrat, every Republican, liberal, conservative, they all wanted this issue to be brought back to the states where the people could vote. And that's what happened. Happened. Now, Ohio?

The vote was somewhat liberal. Kansas, the vote was somewhat liberal, much more liberal than people would have thought. But each individual state is voting. It's the vote of the people now. It's not tied up in the federal government. I did a great service in doing it. It took courage to do it. And the Supreme Court had great courage in doing it. And I give tremendous credit to those six justices. There is no state in this country where it is legal to kill a baby after it's born. Let's understand how we got here.

Donald Trump hand-selected three members of the United States Supreme Court with the intention that they would undo the protections of Roe v. Wade. And they did exactly as he intended. And now in over 20 states, there are Trump abortion bans, which make it criminal for a doctor or nurse to provide health care. In one state, it provides prison for life.

Trump abortion bans that make no exception even for rape and incest, which understand what that means. A survivor of a crime of violation to their body does not have the right to make a decision about what happens to their body next. That is immoral. And you can tell Trump is heads exploding because personally, he's completely pro-choice and he knows this is killing him.

But, you know, he's got his people saying, no, no, without the, you know, this is how we win. He made a Faustian bargain. Yeah, and it's just killing him because his position is multiple choice. Let the states vote for it. I don't have a position. And he's just swinging in the wind here. And he just, you can tell he's feeling how bad this is for him. It's nice how that moment rhymes with her, what I would call her repression.

You know, the arc of her, of her as a political performer, right. Where, you know, she had from, from 2019, the terrible nomination fight. And then she gets in the office vice president. She gets crapped out like every other vice president. And then Dobbs comes along and has dropped in her lap because by, and then she finds her footing.

That issue allows her to connect to a community. It allows her to talk about something that she's really feels comfortable with. And you guys know the Haley Barber thing, good gets better and bad gets worse. And when you get a candidate out there who finds safe ground where they feel like, oh, I'm resonating. I'm,

this is, this is sinking in their confidence grows and they get better and better. And part of the story of her is this last year of being out on the road, doing all these abortion events where she really found the language. She found the, the sensibility for it. She found her, she had the passion and presumably what she connected to it. And now in the, on this big giant stage, that's the moment of the debate after having had 10 kind of shaky minutes at the top, she lucks out that they put the abortion question in that order and

Right. That wasn't her choice, but she gets it served up on a platter. And that is really the turning point for the whole debate because she just got better and better after that for the rest of the debate. I thought stronger and stronger from that moment. She did. She did. Yeah. When she tasted blood, she got 10 feet tall. And that's frequent. You're absolutely right about confidence. You know, when it starts working, then run with it.

Unlike the economic issue, which she still seems like she's trying to get her arms around that one. Right. Yes. Unlike that issue, she is totally...

about this. And there were some other bites that we're not going to share, but that in which that passion was, was, was just so manifest and genuine and authentic. And, you know, it's noteworthy that Mike and I were in, maybe you too, John, we're privy to some of the data from the folk dial group that a super PAC did during the debate, the top six testing lines were,

of that whole debate by either candidate were her lines on abortion. And I think a lot of it has to do with the presentation of it. When she did that, I felt like that exchange, I heard three things in that exchange. And the first thing you heard was a bunch of people

like jamming on those dials. Like you could hear the dials being cranked up even in real time. The other thing, the next thing you could hear was the gender gap getting wider in America. And the third was, and the third was the sound of JD back getting, JD bands getting run over, getting run over by a Donald Trump's bus when he backed the bus back up over him.

I totally agree with this, but you know what the most pro-choice cohort of the American electorate is? It's young men under 35. So this thing is a grand slam across the board in most places. The other thing is coherence. You

You know, you can make an argument, not easy, on Trump's side, but he couldn't even get there. It was just word salad, babbling, you know, so it wasn't even presented. It was a one-way street, all heard. Well, one of the things about this whole debate—

Look, Trump was terrible in the debate against Biden. I think we said it in the pre-setup to the debate. He was terrible against Biden, but he was, but versus Biden, he looked like a colossus in that debate. Well, this was his Biden debate. This was his, oh my God, what do we got here? I want to talk about that more and later in the podcast when we get a few more examples in here, because that I think is totally true. This was a bizarro world of the Biden debate in a lot of ways. But the question I ask for the two of you is this.

I understand in a twisted way some of Trump's lies. Some of the lies he tells, I get what he's going for, right? But this lie that he tells over and over again, which is that everybody wanted Roe v. Wade overturned,

Is it like, what's that about? Like, where's that rooted in? Because it's like, it's like he opened it. He opens himself up to her most powerful lines there. She gets into it, which is like the woman bleeding out in the parking lot. She wanted this, you know, it's like some of the, she opens the door to these incredibly emotional, powerful attacks. Why does he do that over and over again? That's so obviously provably wrong. I have a theory in. So,

There is a legitimate academic constitutional law argument about Roe v. Wade is really sloppy constitutional law. Yes. The justices had a country that didn't want restrictions, so they kind of tortured themselves in the trimesters, blah, blah, blah. So if you sit down, even on the left with legal scholars, they say, yeah, it's a really crappy piece of constitutional law, but it's an example of the court going where the country really needed to be.

And so somebody briefed Trump on all that. And he, some professor told me everybody agrees it's lousy law. And then, you know, he projects his way to us. Only I could solve it by sending it back to the states. Blah, blah, blah. It doesn't matter. I'm sure he played that back. I've heard that pitch a hundred times in campaign briefings. But to John's point, this is the answer that he's landed on. And what you saw last night, a little bit like what you saw at the convention, is when Trump gets rattled, he goes to his standard

kind of rally material. I mean, you know, he's like an old stand-up and he can improvise as well. And so he just goes to the... And they plan for that. I'll tell you, though, John, on your point about the...

about, you know, why does he say things that are so blatantly false that everybody knows it? Maybe the most egregious was on January 6th. And I don't think we have that teed up, but where he said,

I had nothing to do with that. They just asked me to come and give a speech. Oh, and the poor victims, those cops out of control, the poor patriots who were murdered, and he has some victim-y quotes. He dug in on that.

But he ran away, Mike, you know. No, at first. Right. I didn't do anything. I'm not culpable. But then he dug in on the. I was barely involved. I was barely involved. I guess they called it a rally. I mean, somebody like he said, literally says, like, well, there was some events that I think they called it a rally and they asked me to speak there, you know. Right. And I said, peacefully, everyone knows that is not what happened. Yeah.

It's just it's just one after the other. He picked every wrong fight. He was incoherent in his arguments. He seemed like a crazy old man. And some focus groups, I'm told people kept taking. I think he's off his meds, ADHD. You know, they're starting to die when you're in a debate at high stakes and the undecided voters watching in a group start to try to diagnose you. That is a very bad night. OK, let's take a break right here for a word from our sponsor. We'll be right back.

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There's one thing that I think if I were doing the after action over there in the Harris campaign, the one thing I would say is,

We got to think more deeply about how we answer these questions on the economy. I have a plan. I have a plan. It's just not a... Well, it's not just that, but her first answer...

So many facts. And it was just all like, I felt like. But she went backwards. She said, you know, this is what he handed us. This is what he handed us. And I can tell you from my own experience with Obama, because we went through all this. We, you know, we talked about being the car being in the ditch and we pulled the car out of the ditch. You know, people do not want to go backward. Oh, totally. They don't want you to duck responsibility. Yeah.

So I actually go ahead, David, and then I'll go. I'm with you. I actually think the Harris strategy wasn't so good, but she hit the Trump committed suicide. So it's a huge win and I'll take it and they should feel good. And her performance was strong. But they decided to have the squabble with Trump debate and they kicked his butt. So it was the best possible squabble with Trump debate. And Trump sure gave a mighty assist.

But do I think she would do better at home or would have done better at home? I mean, if you're a Trump hater, you love that debate. The bully got beat up and the bully was crying for mommy by the end of it. If you're in the media, 80% of them hate Trump. You're going to think, oh, perfect debate ever. And she did perform a lot better. I give her all the accolades. And it was a win. And her campaign's stronger today. And his is going to spiral into an internal snake pit of epic proportions we're talking about.

But if she'd spent a third of the time and she did it once in a while, a lot of it changed the channel. No more of this. Aren't you tired of it? All great. But if she had connected more about you having trouble making your mortgage payment, your apartment payment, are you a young couple trying to find a house and you can't afford anything? You're working two jobs more that to define her.

Less than I can win a politician squabble with Donald Trump, which is good, but I don't think it was optimal at home, which is why I don't think she's going to get the huge polling bump out of this, some Dems think. I think she'll get a little bump. It was good for her. She's more likely to win now. But was it optimal? I think maybe that was their plan to engage Trump and, quote, beat him. But at home, did she connect on what she's going to do for you going forward? I don't think so. And they have work to do there.

They've finished the sale here. I want, I want David, I want you to come back to the economics thing. Cause I think you were about to like lead towards the thing of like what you could diagnose out of, uh,

uh, what didn't work on economics that they need to fix over the next eight weeks that they're going to be campaigning. But separately from that, another ax site here, you know, David, you said on one of these podcasts in the last week or so that we did this thing about how, if you look back historically at presidential debates, that the winner, ultimately the people, the person who people, what was remembered was, did you have command of the stage? And, and I think that, that I agree with Mike, your, your point that more of the stuff you were talking about could have been, uh,

made it optimal and that showing more of herself answering some of those uncertainties people have in that audience that we see in the polling all the time, which we don't really know who she is, what she believes that she didn't really accomplish a lot of that in this event, but she definitely won the commanding the stage thing last night. And that is the thing. People will remember this debate as I had donors and people who were incredibly harsh on Biden, uh,

as everyone was in Atlanta, who were like right at me going, this is a plausibility test. The first is her first presidential nominee debate. Can she look like

Like, I can be commander in chief. I can go toe-to-toe with anybody, including Vladimir Putin. And she passed that with flying colors last night. She commanded the battle sphere. You buried the lead. You have donors. Why don't they contribute some to this podcast? We could use some donors over here. We could use a little grease here.

We're open. I joined this podcast because you guys said you were going to become my donors. So was I sold a pup there? Well, in the spirit of this discussion, we lied to you. We sold you the Chicago Bridge. Yeah, but I agree with both you guys. I think she fell short on the economy. I think on the biggest task that was necessary in some ways, which was to

the moment and look like a president. She absolutely passed with flying colors. Um,

But, you know, when you look at these voters who are hanging out there, the voters who are going to determine this election, a lot of them are a lot of them are motivated by economics by. And so, you know, doing going deeper and getting as passionate about the struggles of people as she is about the struggles of women who are being deprived their rights and

is really something that I would focus on if I were her. And by the way, we've said it before, I hope now they sort of loosen up the reins and let her go out and do stuff. Yes, she's ready just between this and the convention speech. I'll give her one other ding in fairness here. She's got to get a better fracking answer. She turns into a slippery politician because she kind of denies the original position ever existed.

For some reason, she can't just say the facts change. I've learned more. When you're vice president, you get to see a very wide view of all the sides of the issue. And instead she does. I never did it. And that's wrong. It's a lie. What she says is that in 2020, she said she had backed off. And I bet if you went back and watched her vice presidential debate with Pence, by then, by the time she joined the Biden ticket, that she had in fact backed off.

because that wasn't Biden's position. I think that's what she's hanging on to there. But the truth is, what people remember is that she was against it in 2019. She did not. Go back and look at that debate. All she did was articulate Biden's position. She did not say Joe Biden and I. She didn't say, I have changed my mind. I know. But when you're running against a serial flip-flopping weasel, don't do a mini version of it yourself, you know?

And it cuts everything. You always use that phrase about the great purifying cleansing thing. It's just like, man, voters love it when you apologize. Just stand up, stand up and say, and it's in our lives too. It's like when you go to somebody and go, you know what? I was just fucking wrong about this. I'm sorry. Like I, I, we all make mistakes. Everybody gets shit wrong. I got this wrong. I've learned more, more times than statewide. I joked in one campaign. Here's our new slogan. I'm sorry.

People love it. Christine taught women, and it's always a fight because the candidates hate doing it. It's the most relatable thing a human being can do. Everybody has that experience. And when you admit you're wrong, you feel great. People love to hear it. I don't know, Mike, if you remember, we had this discussion back in 2021 where

Wait, we were doing this podcast in 21, didn't we? I think we've been doing it forever. Yeah, you were doing it in 21. I had a full head of hair when we started this damn thing. I said, if Biden, after the exit from Afghanistan went down, if he had simply said...

I absolutely am of the belief that we made the right decision. We had to leave Afghanistan. Am I am I happy with the way it happened? Do I feel like it went down the way it should have? No.

Right, right. Let the pressure out. Exactly. Yeah. You know, John F. Kennedy, and I said this then, John F. Kennedy in 1961, after the Bay of Pigs, stood up at a press conference and said, you know, victory has a thousand fathers, defeat is an orphan. I am the responsible officer of this government.

Yeah, well, Churchill had the greatest line ever. When the facts change, my views can change. What about you? What would you do when the facts change? Yeah, yeah. Anyway, enough of that. But talk about, John, the –

the exchange, because by Trump's whole strategy going into the debate, which he got into maybe mostly in his clothes, never so was that she is just a continuation of Joe Biden. Well, there's two things, right? What, what you, what we all heard, what Trump is going to do, he's, he was going to tie Trump.

Harris to the Obama record, and then he was going to expose her inauthenticity over all these issues that she's changed. And because he got, as we've already pointed out, got distracted, took all the bait whenever it was thrown at him, he didn't do what he said he was going to do. He actually said a few days ago, I let Joe Biden talk. I'm just going to let her talk. And instead, every time she baited him, he chased the squirrel.

But the other thing was he never was prosecuting the argument about her being central to the Biden economic record. And then all of a sudden we got this clip. I mean, I looked at my watch. I think I might have texted one of you guys or both of you. It was 84 minutes into a 90-minute debate when he finally tried, like remembered, oh, shit, I'm supposed to tie her to Joe Biden. And then he did it in the clumsiest way possible. Let's play that.

She is Biden. You know, she's trying to get away from Biden. I don't know the gentleman. She says she is Biden. The worst inflation we've ever had. A horrible economy because inflation has made it so bad that you can't get away with that. Thank you. I want to just respond briefly. Clearly, I am not Joe Biden and I am certainly not Donald Trump. So the thing about this, what this led me into thinking about is, first of all,

There's so many ways in which this debate, as I said before, is the bizarro world Biden debate, right? And here's the first one. We all talked about how Biden forgot his core message in the Atlanta debate. It was supposed to be, he's all about himself, I'm all about you. Biden didn't make that argument until about 85 minutes into that debate, right? That's the first thing. The second thing is the split screen we just saw.

is a very vivid illustration of how well-trained she was to... She'll look on her face and her knowledge of the fact that as a black woman standing there, that she could just turn to him and say, you moron. I'm obviously not Joe Biden. I'm obviously not you. And it amplifies the point. And that split-screen thing...

which killed Joe Biden. The split screen with Trump killed Biden. And now it's like the split screen is killing Trump with Harris. It's like, it's a perfect parallel to it. And then the third thing was the thing we also briefly alluded to earlier today, which is like the worst moment. When Jon Stewart did his thing,

after the Atlanta debate, he had a four box of Biden slack jawed. And he's like, did no one in debate prep look at these, look at what he looks like here. She was always throughout the whole thing was playing that right. And then the third thing was the thing you mentioned earlier, he gets an immigration question and he takes it. He goes off onto rallies and then the pet killing, right?

It's exactly the same moment that Biden had when Biden got the abortion question and flipped it to immigration. It's like that was like one of the worst moments of the debate. Biden finally got a question that was like right in his wheelhouse and he took it to the worst possible place. Trump here was given the immigration question, which is all he really wants to talk about. And he goes racing off to talk about crowd sizes and cat and dog killing. By the way, the only sociopath, a president so sociopathic in the last hundred years that he hasn't had a pet in the White House is all of a sudden worried about cat and dog killing in Ohio.

That's how you know what a phony issue this is. Robert Kennedy Jr. was there last night, and I just had this image of him wandering through when all of this was being discussed, thinking there was a meal lined up for him somewhere. Right, exactly. Hit the beer cup thing, Donald. It's a proven winner. But, you know, there's a cross cut on this.

That also is really, really important. From the beginning, since she got into this race, she has been advantaged by the fact—leaving the New York Times Sienna poll out of it for a reason I'll mention in a second—she has been the turn-the-page candidate. She has been changed. He has become the embattled incumbent.

And he's been trying to change that dynamic by turning her into the incumbent. The Times poll asked the question, who represents change from Biden?

And so, of course, that biases the question. Well, that anchors it a little bit to her, but that's in voter heads a little. I think that's like half wrong. But I want to make a Biden point before we move on. Yeah. Just an observational thing. Boy, the biggest kind of when you go into the madhouse world of Trump, the biggest tell to me was in his endless cavalcade of hatred.

He's madder at Biden than anybody. Every time. That guy's so angry. And you know why? Because that son of a bitch dropped out and now I'm going to lose. He's so mad at Biden for taking the candy away. And, you know, it's a beautiful thing. I hope

Joe Biden watched this thing last night and there's a fork in his road. He could go the Irish bitter way of if I were there, I would have really got him. You know, they forced me out or he could go the thanks to me. This guy's mincemeat on the floor now and had a good cackle and hopefully a little Jameson's because it I hope it was satisfying for the president. Well, I'll say one more thing about Biden, though, quickly is just an analogy thing.

If anybody, like, I mean, I keep banging this drum, which is that Trump's, you know, Trump has always been

and, and, you know, and, and not linear and not rigorous and not, not consistent, but he's, he is worse now. And, and he's not just the old, he's not just the old candidate because Biden's gone. He's starting to show some different versions of, but his own versions of the loss of mental acuity. Some of these answers are so, or at a moment when everyone's asking the question, can Donald Trump just find some discipline? If he could find a little bit of discipline, a little bit of that late 2016 magic and,

If you're any Republican after watching that debate who thinks that Trump is going to be able to find consistency, rigor, focus, discipline, this debate to me, it should kill it in your mind. That is not going to be the way to win for Donald Trump. He might still win, but not that way. It would be like saying if only Murphy could just dance.

You know, it's just not, there are things that people have beyond people's capacity. Oh, wait a minute, I'll get my wedding video out. Look out, look out. I've seen, I've seen, I've seen, I've seen Murphy do the funky chicken. Yeah, no, no, let's, two, let's just say two words, epic Charleston. Let's stop for a minute and listen to a word from one of our fine sponsors.

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What's going to be the world's greatest eel or angry feral cats in a pillowcase fight in the history of the world? I did a Twitter poll on who's out the plane window.

La Savita won 5-1 over the others. But Trump's going to have a head on a stick here within 24 hours. And, you know, Lindsey Graham buried him last night in the spin room. Oh, my God. Well, he didn't bury Trump. He told Jim Miller that— No, of course not. He's incapable of that. Oh, the campaign! No, I mean, listen. Think about—now we all—Trump's, you know, psyche has been laid bare for the world to see in that debate last night. But think about Trump's psyche. I mean, he can't lose, right?

He is not allowed to lose, which is why we've gone through this national psychodrama because Trump can't accept defeat. Well, then his dad would have been right about it. And so it has to be somebody's fault. Here it is. I'll tell you exactly how it's going to work. He's furious at La Savita and Wiles behind the scenes.

He always feels as though he went along with them and their phony discipline that didn't let him be himself. He's got Corey Lewandowski back in there now, who's apparently riding high and walking around like he owns the place. Let Trump be Trump, says Corey, which is just what Trump wants to hear. And the way he's going to rationalize it is,

To go to Mike's point from about Biden is that if I hadn't let these fucking consultants talk me into doing that early debate with Joe Biden, Joe Biden would still be in this race. That's in Trump's head. He's like, he thinks that was a mistake. And he thinks that he's going to blame La Sabita and Susie or one or both.

for having let him agree to a June debate. They, well, Biden wanted that debate. And this is how it's all part of it. And they didn't know he'd drop out after they made him drop out of the convention. They didn't know she was coming. I'm surprised La Cevita, and I've said this on the pod before, hasn't jumped out on his own to get in front of this. Well, let me just say a word about them.

Donald Trump, remember when they came on board, was being written out of the script and we were, you know, this was during the memorable DeSantis event.

Boomlet.

And they led him through that Republican process. And they did the inside politics really well. Yeah. The Republican inside. They bought low, sold medium, but they knew he was an undervalued asset. So I give him credit for that. I'm with you, David. But the idea anybody manages him is still a farce. They operated on his behalf inside the party. You can't have a rational campaign and an irrational candidate at the end of the day have a problem. Right.

Right. That said, if I were La Cevita and I knew he knew the debate prep was basically throwing meatloaf at people and having somebody come in, tell me he's 80 points ahead in Alaska. I

My guess is La Savita was thinking about getting out before from just a La Savita survival point of view. And now he's in hell because you're right. Corey's going to walk around. Corey's going to start layering all the deputies with his own idiots. You know, it's going to that's the great gift of this thing for Kamala Harris. Not only did she start the second look phase with a super strong night, but

The next eight days is all going to be Trump internal meltdown. Trump's going to go crazier to try to get momentum back. So they just killed a quarter of the clock until early voting starts, which is gold, gold for her. I think that the Tulsi Gabbard debate consulting firm, uh,

took a big hit here. You know, Lisa Loomer was on that. On the plane. On the plane. Yeah, where's the pillow guy? I thought he wrote the clothes. I thought that was like the biggest tell. You knew that she was the source of the pets. Yeah.

Dogs. I mean, it's perfect Laura Loomer based in no fact whatsoever. Laura Loomer and totally racist. Like, you know, it's an attack on Haitians. They're all dog eaters. Again. Yeah, that's what they do. They're dumb and they're voodoo, you know. So here's an interesting little tell in his rhetoric real quick about

Eight weeks ago, I got a call from a buddy of mine who's one of the potentate, wealthy, wealthy, successful guy. And he said, yeah, I got invited to this thing with Elon Musk, a couple of my peers.

And Elon went on this crazy rampage about Trump's an idiot, but, you know, at that time it was Biden. End of the world, because they're going to let all these immigrants in with their immigrant culture. And, of course, he's an immigrant. And they're going to ruin America. They're all socialist. And in 15 years, they're going to take over the voting. You know, this whole apocalyptic spin. And I'm sure they're telephone buddies now, Trump and Elon. A lot of this crazy foreign horror changing our country is coming from Elon.

Elon is a backer of great replacement theory. Tucker's like used to be the biggest voice for that. And Elon is a lot richer than Tucker. So like Trump's listening to Elon. Yeah. And Elon, as you know, I said some weeks ago on TV, like he wants to be, you know, the first or the next great American oligarch. And Trump is willing to make him that.

Uh, you know, he's already designated a role he'd play in the government, government efficiency expert. He's also one of the big government contractors. So it's kind of an odd. Yeah, no, it's very odd. I got to say, I took, I posted this picture last night, which went insanely viral on Twitter of, of, uh,

of Stephen Miller. And I saw that. Yeah. And, and, and what's his name? Matt Gates walking in right before Trump came to the spin room. And they looked like they had had their cats, dogs, and pets eaten. You know, they were just like, you know, and it also had a few Klonopin on the way. And they like, this was, they were not the picture of victories.

Let's put it that way. I don't, I don't think Miller has a dog by the way, probably a Guillermo or a tarantula or something like that. But you looked at those guys again, another, like basically the whole debate prep team, you know, like bat gates was along with, uh, it was going to be the, the Gates and Gabbard were going to be the debate prep specialists. Uh, they were leading all the debate prep for Trump. And, uh,

It did not work out all that well. When the bar scene at Star Wars is your debate prep group, that is a bad sign. I was going to ask you this, because you did two debate preps with Karen Dunn, and I think it's worth saying, to go back to the top of the podcast, when you gave credit to how well prepared Harris was, people asked, you know, Ron Klain deservedly has a reputation as a great guru of debate prep, even notwithstanding the Joe Biden performance in Atlanta. Yeah.

And people were asking me last night, well, how do you explain this? I mean, obviously they had a very rigorous, meticulous debate prep process. And I just say, Karen Dunn rode shotgun with Ron on all of those debate preps, the ones you guys did. She's a brilliant woman. She's really good at this. And I was not in those rooms, but I'm willing to bet when the story comes out that there's going to be a lot of credit that's going to fall on Karen Dunn's lap for this performance. Well, and just quickly, Kamala was willing to listen and do the prep.

Of course. Trump was not. That's a huge thing. Huge, huge. But they, I think, Karen did her prep four years ago as well. Yes. And I think they related well. Just to let everybody know, Karen Dunn started as a communications person in politics. She was Hillary's deputy communications director under Howard Wolfson when Hillary ran for the Senate. She went to work for Hillary in the Senate as communications director.

left to go to Yale law school, ended up clerking for, uh, Merrick Garland and for, uh, justice Breyer and has become one of the, one of the most, uh, litigators in the country. Uh, and so she is a beyond brilliant person who has both communication skills and, uh, legal chops and, you know, sort of forensic chops, uh,

And, you know, she was briefly my chief of staff in the 2008 campaign. You know, she's also as good a person as she is. As nice a person as you've ever met. As nice a person as there is on planet Earth. So I, you know, and then I also want to give my old partner, David Plouffe, credit because he's been involved in this as well. And so, you know, they did a, whose brilliance has already been,

established. So those guys did a terrific job, but yes, Kamala Harris, she invited that kind of team. She wanted that kind of team. She was a great and willing collaborator with that team. They, they spoke a language that she could appreciate and she executed on the plan really, really well. And I will throw a, a, a, a, a, the bouquet that no one ever wants to see thrown, but

It never made sense to me, Bob Bauer playing Trump in debate prep. It never made sense. And I'll tell you, man, I have seen video of Philippe when he did Clinton's debate prep in 2016. Talking about Philippe Reigns, who's a former Hillary comms first. Philippe Reines. Reines, sorry. I think that's how it's said. I never get it right. Everybody just calls him Philippe.

And he, you know, he, but he does the Lee Strasberg thing. He puts on the fat suit and the giant thing in the long tie and he was great at it. And they brought him back for this. And I have to say that my guess is if video of that ever leaks, you'll be like, whoa, he really like anticipated a lot of, he was a great student of Trump. Let me say, you know, when you're doing debate prep, you know, 2008, when, uh, when Granholm was preparing for Sarah, uh, from when, uh, Biden was preparing for, uh,

for Palin. Jennifer Granholm played Palin in the debate prep. Former actor Jennifer Granholm was. She was so brilliant and anticipated almost everything that Palin did. She inhabited

the character. And you guys use Carrie in 2012, the great effect to Carrie play Romney. Carrie was a perfect patrician in Boston. That's the key to good debate prep. You want to simulate it. So when the candidates there, they're never surprised and they never think, Oh my God, what a great answer. I'm losing. Oh my God, I can't do this. My mom hated me. And they spin off. You want them to hear the other person's act and,

and know it cold so they always feel secured and controlled. And it's a simulation. But it is like preparing for a football game. You know, you study tape, you study tape, you practice against what you think you're going to see. You know what their habits are on the field. And the more familiar you are with what you're seeing, the better you're going to do. This was clearly a great opportunity.

They did great prep. All right, we're going to leave for a minute to pay the power bill, and then we'll be right back. Hey, Hackeroos, most of us aren't trying to become Olympians. Well, speak for yourself. But who doesn't want to feel strong, healthy, and end the day with some energy left in the tank? That's not happening without what, boys? Without Field of Greens. That's why one of our most talented and athletic producers,

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Sorry, mailbaggers, because there's so much debate stuff to talk about. But next week, so send the stuff, and we'll give you the address in a minute. All right, you're Trump.

And internal snake pit, Corey is putting everybody in uniforms. But if there's a moment where they adjust the, you know, big pointed flumes and wide lapels and everything. All right, what we need, we need are Sam Brown belts and boots. You know, we're going that way. We need more guys and dolls around here. You be Sky Master, so I'll be Nathan Detroit. Exactly, exactly. We're going to turn this thing around with a musical. Right.

What is the smart move for Trump to recapture this thing?

What he's going to do is double down on all the crazy. And now the debate really conditioned America, kind of like the Biden-age thing, like, wow, he's really nuts. So now that filters there, and it's going to make the crazy get – I mean, when Trump is more crazy, it's going to hurt him more now, I think. The sensitivity meter has been turned on. But what should they do? Obviously, a debate on the economy and the border. Yeah, what they should do is they should start where he ended and pick up on his –

last kind of tirade about, you know, it works better when she's not there to rebut, but they need to make her an exemplar of all of the things that people dislike about Biden's presidency and portray her as continuity. That was the debate plan. He didn't execute it. They got to double down on it. But I think they're going to, you know, I think you're going to see a lot more barbed

stuff coming. She has challenged Trump to another debate immediately and predictably, right? The Harris campaign came out very quickly. We're like, let's do another one. You know that I know what, I think I know both of you guys as seasoned political professionals will say they shouldn't, that it would be bad news for Trump because confronting her is not a good strategy. Doubling down on what epically didn't work is not a particularly great strategy. But that's an easy answer in the sense that it's right. But

Do you think Trump can resist? Trump will want to do it. Yeah. Trump wants to have another debate. Here's my prediction. We're back to Colonel Jessup here. You know, he wants to go back. He wants to have another round with Tom Cruise. There's no doubt about it. He wants to get back up on the witness stand and have another go round. I'll do my Kreskin thing here. I predict within 24 hours,

Trump will be standing there trying to look human with some Joe the plumber guy from New York saying a Haitian ate my schnauzer. And they're going to try to double down on that. They're going to go find the eyewitness who was on local TV or wherever they heard the story from the advance found, not upstate, from Ohio. And we're going to find the victim of the Haitian pet eating attack and

And it's going to be laughable. It's going to be right up there with Four Seasons Lawn Care, but it's coming. If we could get a Haitian to eat Rue Giuliani, that'd be like, that'd be, now that'd be must-see TV. There's no, there's no seasoning that would make that go down well. But, um. It's the brown, it's the brown gravy from the hair. Yeah. I don't know. Peter Luger can do a lot. So we're. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Lugers. Hey, David, you're here. You're in New York. Let's, let's go to Lugers this week. All right. Okay. Okay.

Oh, I'm jealous now. Let me put that on my list. The problem, you know, Jason Miller was on TV yesterday morning, and he said she doesn't know what she's in for. She's in against Muhammad Ali. Muhammad Ali. She's in against Floyd Merriweather. And I said when I heard that, you know, the thing he ought to worry about is this guy knocking himself out.

And that's exactly what happened. And that's what's going to happen again. That even made Scott Jennings laugh on air. I saw that. You earned the elusive Jennings chuckle. I think Trump's Secret Service codename has been changed to TexCobb.

There's a little boxing analogy for you. Wow. Even your boxing references go back a few years. Time machine time. You have to be over 80 to understand. I used to write for Dennis Miller. Okay. It's my monkey trick. It's Dennis would say, but so there is a strategy that's rational and, uh, and they're doing the campaign is doing the things that they should be doing. I'll give you one example. Uh,

They are a friend of mine in Philadelphia said that they were on vacation and they came home. Their kids don't live at home anymore, but they're still registered there. And their young, their kids who are in their 20s got 12 mailings from the Trump campaign.

And they were, you know, a bunch of more about crime and stuff. But some of them were disavowing Project 2025. So they're doing that. They're targeting, you know, they're trying to get their sliver of young voters where they obviously have some play. And then a friend of mine in Atlanta said her young African-American son was getting pounded with material on,

how unjust Kamala was as a prosecutor, putting people away. Yeah, it's the old attack from the left on her. Exactly. They're attacking her from the left on a micro, and in macro, she was a lenient prosecutor letting everybody go. But they're doing the blocking and tackling that you would expect campaigns to do.

The problem is they're completely out of sync with their candidate. With the candidate, the most important message generator, you know, waving dog skeletons around. I think the other thing, they're going to get a little taste of the Biden life circa two months ago because the high dollar folks are going to start to completely panic. All they need is one or two bad post-debate polls. And I already got an email from a smart...

establishment money king saying it's all about the Senate now, which is, you know, if that's the mood of that world, because there's a lot of accommodating high dollar people who don't love Trump, but they're like, she's a communist. We got to give the Trump. That's the rationale. And that world doesn't like debate losers.

So it's going to be a rough week for him. Or abject lunatics. Right, right. That's like the second worst thing you can be. As long as you win, we're dead crazy, which is the sin of the party. This debate, there were a lot of viral moments in this debate. And so it'll be interesting to see how this thing bounces around. I meant to check before I got on to see what was bouncing around social, but that's going to have reverberative effects on

out there. And the question is, when it all shakes out at the end of this week, where is this race? My guess is that she made marginal improvement. There's not that much elasticity in this electorate. You can't move that much.

The question is, can she move a couple of points? Can she move a couple of points in Pennsylvania? Can she move a couple of points in Michigan and Wisconsin? Georgia. Yeah, Georgia. Although...

Guys, I'm increasingly of the mind that if she doesn't win Pennsylvania, I'm not sure. I don't know that there is another path. If she doesn't win Pennsylvania, maybe she'll win Georgia. Then you have to find a second state. North Carolina. Since the Georgia-North Carolina thing, that's the only way to do it. Well, Nevada. Nevada.

Nevada, she's got a legit lead there now in this poll I just saw yesterday. Well, I wouldn't trust it that much.

She has to take a state away from Trump, and Nevada wouldn't be doing that. Well, it's a Sunbelt state. It's one of the three, unless she—if she loses Pennsylvania. No, she doesn't. If she loses Pennsylvania and kept Michigan and Wisconsin, which would be unusual, by the way, but if she did that and she won Georgia and she took Nevada, then she'd win. She'd have 273. That's the scenario I was just catching up. And don't forget Omaha, CD2.

But it's not enough to overset Pennsylvania. She won't need Omaha if she did that, but she would be at 272 then. But this is the world in which we're going to be living in the rest of the way. She's won two things, a little bit of polling, I think. But she's taken seven to 10 days away from Trump as the clock ticks quickly. Yes, really important. And I will say that, David, to your point about what's floating around social media.

You didn't, you know, you never know with these candidates, who's going to be good for whatever the platform is. You know, in 2016, you would not have predicted social media avatars would be Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders that, that somehow those guys would be the ones who understood and were good viral candidates in, in that moment on the platform. And, and,

You know, Obama, you would have predicted it more because he was young and more. But it is the case that somehow because of the crispness, this is one of the other advantages of prosecutorial Kamala, is that the crispness of the way that a litigator turned politician is.

makes arguments she's very memeable i mean in addition to her being yeah multi-rate multiracial and on the younger side she's got she's got a kind of hipness to her no no she has a precision to her stuff she has that's what i'm saying and that and that works in short form like she gets off a lot of very memeable lines and trump is rambling you know it's like trump was a good twitter candidate but he's not a good tiktok candidate no but he was a good tiktok candidate for them

Well, that's for the Harris people. That rambling has its use. I meant for his purposes. I'm still trying to get my head around this Mannix thing. I got to hit social media and see what the kids are doing. You're on MySpace. Where do you go? What's your menu? I turn on my radio. TikTok.

Yeah, you get the AM radio out and see what WGN is. Oh, I don't know, 50,000 watts, a big trouble for Trump here. David's got one of the biggest accounts still going on Friendster. There we go, exactly. It's huge, 253 followers. The one thing I have is a clock that's still useful, and I know we've run out of time here. Yeah, we've got to wrap this thing up.

All right. Quick housekeeping. Fill up the mailbag. We need it for next week. X on tap at gmail.com and check out directly current with the young, brilliant Max Patton, a podcast all about EV politics. It debuts today. Hey, make sure they call in. We like those voicemails. The voicemails are the sweet ones. Don't just send the email call. We want to hear you people do a voice memo on your phone and email it, or we got our number.

You can just listen to an old episode. We won't make you sit through it now. All right, boys. Next time. Onward. Later days. Save on Cox Internet when you add Cox Mobile and get fiber-powered Internet at home and unbeatable 5G reliability on the go. So whether you're playing a game at home or attending one live,

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